Unpacking the first US presidential debate and the themes facing American voters ahead of November’s election

Guests: Amanda Taub, Eugene Scott

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[Clip from Sept. 29 US Presidential Debate]

MG: If you missed the U.S. presidential debate last night, it went a little bit like that. In an election year like no other and with the stakes running high, U.S. President Donald Trump and his Democratic challenger, Joe Biden showed little patience for one another. What the debate revealed about the candidates and whether it will actually sway voters are what really matters as those voters head into November's election. Amanda Taub is a news columnist for The New York Times. Eugene Scott, political reporter for The Washington Post. Good morning to you both.

AMANDA TAUB: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

EUGENE SCOTT: Good morning.

MG: This debate has been described as a train wreck, a dumpster fire, a hot mess, and with words not suitable for morning radio. Eugene Scott, how would you describe what you saw last night?

EUGENE SCOTT: It's very much what you just described, which is highly unfortunate, given the number of people who were tuning into it, hoping to get some clarification for questions. They still have that they want answered before they go to the polls. It was a very interesting moment and has definitely led quite a few people to question whether or not debates are even necessary or helpful in helping people understand what it is that candidates automatically stand for.

MG: Amanda Taub, to a lot of people, it was deeply uncomfortable to watch. What did you make of what you saw broadly, what you saw last night?

AMANDA TAUB: I think that the number one takeaway from the debate for me was that the president of the United States openly attacked the integrity of the American election in which he is currently running. And also not only refused to condemn white supremacist groups, but told one of them to stand by to take action on the election, whose integrity he had just questioned. And so I think it was not just that, as Eugene said, this was, you know, worrying and confusing and certainly didn't offer clarity for voters who might have been looking for policy direction. But it was actually, I think, actively damaging to trust and integrity of the American democratic system.

MG: I want to get to the issue of race because it ran right through that debate last night. But who would the chaotic scenes that we saw last night, who who does that better serve, Eugene?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, it doesn't serve anyone well, considering how harmful racism is. We've seen thousands of Americans take the streets for months this summer protesting racism and policing and in government and business and other areas. And so many voters are looking for a leader who will speak out boldly against racism and systemic racism and white supremacy. And that's something the president did not do. And some would say, in fact, he did the opposite and perhaps issued a call to arms to white supremacists, and particularly a group called The Proud Boys. We did see Joe Biden highlight just how vast racial inequalities are in America. Specifically when it comes to the coronavirus pandemic. And that's what so many voters were looking to hear and to see what solutions could be offered to them.

MG: So this is what happened when the issue of race in particular, that the reckoning the people have been seeing over the course of the summer was brought up in last night's debate. Have a listen.

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VOICE 1: Are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland?

VOICE 2: I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing.

VOICE 1: So what are you saying?

VOICE 2: I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace.

VOICE 1: Then do it sir.

VOICE 3: Say it. Do it. Say it.

VOICE 2: You want to call them. What do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name.

VOICE 1: White supermacists and right-wing militia.

VOICE 2: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody has got to do something about Antifa and the left.

MG: Eugene Scott, the Proud Boys are now using that as a logo. That phrase, "stand back and stand by." What does that tell you about what Donald Trump is trying to do in this moment?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, it's a reminder of something we saw in 2016 when the official newspaper for the KKK endorsed President Trump. It's reminded us that we have a president that white nationalists look to and see someone who is praising them and embracing their rhetoric and who they really don't have to worry about boldly condemning them. I think a really important point in that exchange that many people look past is that Trump said that he sees more harm in action coming from the left than from the right from his perspective. And that's problematic for many people because that is not the perspective that they share. Most Americans, when they look at hateful rhetoric coming from different sides of the aisle, certainly the far right that they believe is being most vocal.

MG: the issue of race goes through the pandemic that we're in the midst of as well. There has been a lot of reporting showing that black and brown communities are disproportionately affected by the coronavirus pandemic. And at one point, Joe Biden was trying to bring up issues around what was going on when it came to the president's handling of this pandemic. Let's listen to that.

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VOICE: 200,000 dead. As you said, over seven million infected the United States. 40,000 people a day are contracting COVID. In addition to that, about between 750 and a thousand people a day are dying. When he was presented with that number, he said it is what it is. Well, it is what it is because you are who you are. That's why it is. The president has no plan.

MG: Amanda Taub, in the midst of a pandemic, which shows no signs of tapering off, how important will an exchange like that be in shaping people's votes?

AMANDA TAUB: I think that the pandemic was already an area where President Trump was really struggling with voters. And it's certainly I think it's not going to help because it will have reminded the small number of undecided voters of this unprecedented crisis that has hit during President Trump's presidency. He tried to shift their decision to a sort of imaginary universe in which more people supposedly would have died under President Biden. But I think it's going to be difficult to convince voters to make a decision based on what might have happened as opposed to what actually has.

MG: Eugene Scott in connecting the dots between the larger issue of race, as we were talking about earlier in this pandemic, what is the goal that Joe Biden is trying to do and is trying to achieve there?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, I think what he's trying to do is help people of colour who have disproportionately been affected by the pandemic, not just when it comes to their health. But with the economy know that he believes that he has solutions and ideas that can stop this, that can provide a pivot needed. And when it comes to their health and when it comes to their pocketbook, that will make 2021 better than this past year.

MG: The other issue, I mean, that is top of mind for so many people right now, and it's largely because, Amanda, your paper published the revelations and have continued to do that in the last couple of days, this is the issue of attacks and how little tax Donald Trump has apparently paid in recent years. $750 in personal income tax in 2016 and 2017. Not at all in 10 of the previous 15 years, according to their reporting. So you can imagine that came up.

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VOICE 1: I'm asking you a specific question, which is.

VOICE 2: Let me tell you.

VOICE 1: I understand all of that.

VOICE 3: Release your tax return.

VOICE 1: I understand all that. No, Mr. President, I'm asking you a question.

VOICE 2: Go ahead.

VOICE 1: Will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017?

VOICE 2: Millions of dollars.

VOICE 1: You paid millions of dollarss?

VOICE 2: Millions of dollars.

VOICE 1: So not $750?

VOICE 2: Millions of dollars, and you'll get to see it.

MG: Amanda Taub, given what we have learned through the reporting in your paper, what did we further did we learn out of that debate last night in terms of pressing that Joe Biden did around that issue and the answers that Donald Trump gave?

AMANDA TAUB: So one thing that I thought was interesting, not a surprise, but definitely interesting about the way that Biden pressed the issue, was he really focussed on this idea that Donald Trump is contributing less and sacrificing less for the country than a schoolteacher or a firefighter. That was what he had. You know, Biden had already put out an ad saying that exact same thing. So that wasn't a surprise. But something that got less attention were the president's debts and also the president's business ties to other countries. And I think that that is something that, you know, we learnt from the tax returns, even though they didn't necessarily get as many headlines as the amount of tax that the president paid. And so I think that was an area where voters might have had more information to gain from a discussion of that. And whereas the tax, you know, I think people probably already knew that the president had not paid very much in taxes.

MG: We discussed this yesterday on the programme with former FBI agent Peter Strzok, talking about the fact that the president could be leveraged to other nations. Eugene Scott, is that the kind of thing that is going to turn people's heads in an election?

EUGENE SCOTT: Certainly, I mean, one of the things that's been really interesting is how many people are disappointed with where America stands on the world stage and in the president's leadership. And so they're certainly looking for someone who in the second term can either reverse what Trump has done, which is well, Biden obviously has argued he would be capable of doing Wurtulla to perhaps some type of pivot coming from the Trump administration, which, quite frankly, the president has indicated that he will do it all or has any interest in doing. And so the relationship between America and foreign governments and businesses is something that we are seeing some voters take into consideration as they head to the polls.

MG: Amanda, you began by talking about the threat to the integrity of the electoral process and people have have framed this as a threat to democracy itself in the United States. There is growing concern that the present might contest the results of November's vote if he doesn't win. He hasn't said that there would be a peaceful transfer of power. Here's what he said last night in the debate, particularly about the issue of mail-in ballots.

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VOICE: There's fraud. They found them in creeks. They found some with the name, Trump. Just happened to have the name Trump just the other day in a wastepaper basket. They're being sent all over the place. They sent two in a Democrat area. They sent out a thousand ballots. Everybody got two ballots. This is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. The other thing, it's nice on November 3rd, you're watching and you see who won the election. And I think we're going to do well because people are really happy with the job we've done. But you know what? We won't know, we might not know for months.

MG: He went on to say, Amanda, that it would not end well. Those were his words. When you heard that, what went through your mind?

AMANDA TAUB: I think that what went through my mind is that I think a lot of people, including in government and the media and also foreign countries, I live in the U.K. at the moment and so I've been speaking to a lot of people here about their perspective on U.S. politics, as well as Americans, is that they're kind of waiting for the election results as a pivotal moment that will tell us whether American democracy is OK or not. And I think that what this told us is that it's not an either or. There can be attacks and damage to the health of American democracy. There have been in the past, obviously, American democracy had some, you know, real problems with for much of its history, with allowing everyone to vote. And we can see already that this election is suffering from problems. Both the president attacking trust in it, also people's access to polling places, access to voting. And so I think that what that really highlighted for me was that we should be aware of the danger that the country is in and actively trying to protect it.

MG: Eugene Scott, how concerned are you about what could happen? Not in the lead up to Election Day, but after the 3rd of November?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, very concerned, I mean, voter suppression, that's something that we have heard marginalised communities express their anxieties about for years, long before Trump got in the White House. And so to hear him say things that gave the impression that he has no interest in making sure that everyone's ballot is counted and respected and viewed as if it's legitimate is quite frightening, especially when you think about some of the voters and states in the South where we've heard black residents recently say they have questions about whether or not those officials in charge of the elections are really invested in making sure their voices are heard.

MG: What effect do you think, if any, the debate has? I mean people again, described it in terms saying that they'd never seen a debate like this. Presidential historians criticizing the moderator, Chris Wallace, for essentially losing control as soon as it started. What effect does a debate and what we saw last night, a chaotic scene like that actually have on voters, Eugene?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, I think it just increases anxiety. I mean, so many people are very worried about the future of this country and we're just hoping that they could hear something that made them think that it could be in good hands one way or another. But I mean, even supporters of Joe Biden, who are deeply, obviously frustrated with President Trump for many reasons, just expressing they felt less secure about some of his ideas and more specifically ability to articulate them when pressed up against a competing philosophy about America coming from an opponent or a side that makes them quite fearful.

MG: Amanda, what impact does a debate like this have? And people talk about swing voters, and I just wonder whether anyone's vote is going to be swayed at all by what they saw last night?

AMANDA TAUB: I think it's certainly possible. Swing voters are always small, very small portion of the American electorate, but they matter a great deal. And I do think that debates are the kind of thing that can make a difference to their votes. I also think and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but it's worth considering the debate as part of American politics. Now, it's not just what will happen in terms of the election in a few months, but what will happen in terms of, you know, whether people in America feel safe right now, whether there is violence in America right now related to political issues. And I think that the debate will have made people anxious on that count as well.

MG: You mentioned living abroad. Do you have a, do you feel like you have a different perspective on this, seeing it from a removed vantage point?

AMANDA TAUB: I think that it has made me realize how many things growing up in America and I was an attorney, I even did election protection work in a few past elections, how much I had come to take for granted the difficulties that America has in extending democratic rights to all of its citizens. You know, I think we have a remarkably high tolerance for things like people not having access to polling places, people not being able to have their votes counted. Difficulty getting registered to vote, et cetera. That has been baked into American history for so long. And we've sort of come to accept it as just the way the system works. But, of course, it doesn't actually have to be that way. And living out of the country in another democracy is a reminder that there are solutions to those problems.

MG: What about for you, Eugene? I mean, again, the pundits have outrage after the debate saying they can't believe what's happened and they're pulling their hair out in terms of, you know, the lack of a coherent discourse. Personally, when you watch something like this unfold as an American, what goes through your mind?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, I was in Portland this past weekend, which is where the Proud Boys had a rally and I spoke even with some more conservative voters who aren't a part of the Proud Boys by any means. But one of the things that was fascinating to me, you know, when we get outside of our, you know, beltway and New York bubbles is just how much Trump's message is resonating with so many Americans. And even the parts that many people would find so deeply problematic are just landing and finding a welcoming home in the hearts and minds of people who will vote and get behind his ideas and with the hope that his vision will move forward. And it's just one of those fascinating moments where so many people are looking at a conversation or argument when one might say and just processing it quite so differently.

MG: So I'll ask you both. We'll just have a minute or so left. What's one thing you're going to be looking for in the remaining 30 some days until the election? Eugene?

EUGENE SCOTT: I'm really interested in hearing how Joe Biden really lands on the argument that this election and that the integrity of this election cannot be trusted with Trump and how there'll need to be more attention on him and his campaign to make sure that every ballot is counted.

MG: And, Amanda, briefly from you?

AMANDA TAUB: I'll be looking for something similar. And I will in particular be looking for statements from other members of the Republican Party, other Republican candidates, about the integrity of the election and about what they think can be done by you know their party, the Democratic Party, other institutions to preserve the integrity of it or not.

MG: It was quite something to watch last night. I appreciate you both sifting through what we saw last evening. Thank you both.

AMANDA TAUB: Thank you.

EUGENE SCOTT: Thank you.

MG: Amanda Taub is a news columnist for The New York Times. Eugene Scott, political reporter for The Washington Post. Your thoughts on this in terms of what's at stake for Canadians in the American election? You can reach us through the website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. The news is next and then.

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VOICE 1: The current system is broken and the only way to fix it is to find a better way, a more just way.

MATT GALLOWAY: Nova Scotia is paving the way for a new restorative justice process to eliminate systemic racism. How exactly is that going to happen? We're trying to get some answers coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Nova Scotia promises action after apology for systemic racism

Guests: Trayvone Clyaton, Tony Ince

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, a couple of real life caped crusaders stopped by to share why superheroes don't just exist in the pages of comics anymore. But first, reforming justice in Nova Scotia.

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VOICE: For many reasons, it's difficult for me to stand here and say our justice system is not just. But for those of us of white privilege, we have for too long failed to hear and respond to the call for change. We aren't profiled because the colour of our skin. We aren't automatically a suspect because if the colour of our skin and we aren't assumed guilty. But this is happening to people in our communities. I want you to know, I hear you, I see you, I believe you. And I am sorry.

MG: That's the premier of Nova Scotia, Stephen McNeil apologising for a justice system he says discriminates against black and indigenous Nova Scotians and is promising to change it. As the premier said, it is discrimination that many Nova Scotians have felt firsthand. Trayvone Clayton is 22-years-old, a student at St. Mary's University in Halifax, and he grew up in the predominantly black community of Uniacke Square and Halifax's North End. Trayvon, good morning.

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: Good morning.

MG: What did you know about the police when you were young?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: I used to think they were pretty cool. It was interesting. I wanted to be a police officer. Whenever I would see the lights flash, I would chase after them and just see how they worked and what they would do. It was pretty cool.

MG: When did that change for you?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: It all changed for me after my incident when I was 16-years-old.

MG: What happened then?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: Was that a priority in the south end of Halifax. That's down by St. Mary's University. So that's kind of like the wealthy area of Halifax. The party got shut down by the police and so I was leaving by myself and a police officer approached me with his vehicle, told me to get on the sidewalk, but I was walking at my own pace, wasn't drunk, wasn't high, didn't smoke or didn't drink. And so as I'm walking towards the sidewalk, he tells me to hurry up. So I'm just thinking, like, I don't have to hurry up because I didn't do nothing wrong. I didn't bother no one, didn't harass no one. And then he gets out the vehicle, grabs me and puts me in a choke hold, slams me to the ground, put his knee to the back of my neck and just pins me to the ground and puts me in handcuffs and chucks me in the back of his police car. So at the time, I was thinking, like trying to think of everything. What did I do wrong? What's going on? Why am I in handcuffs in the back of a police car? And then he put me up for assault and put me up for resisting arrest. And I was 16 at the time. I played basketball and I was just thinking my basketball career was over. But good thing my parents knew officers who knew about me and knew of me, so it got everything cleared and I got an apology. I was just thinking it was a mistake, but after that, when Scott Worthy came here to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and did his research for the Wortley report on street checks, I started to hear more stories that were like mine, for people being arrested and pulled over by police officers for no legitimate reason and that's when I said, see that it was a huge, huge issue we had here in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

MG: Given what you went through, and that's really difficult to hear, given what you went through, but also what you learned, as you mentioned, as Scott Wortley did that investigation, what did you make of the apology by the premier yesterday?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: There's a lot I was thinking of. It can be good. It can be bad. I know he's stepping down from that position soon, so it makes me wonder is he saying that and making promises because he's stepping down from that position. Will he follow through? I guess you just got to take what you can get for now until you see change. Action speaks louder than words, so I really got to see the results of what's being said by the premier.

MG: What action would you want to see? I mean what would show you that this is more than an apology to your point, from a premier who is on his way out of that office?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: There's not enough blacks who sit at government positions. There's not not enough blacks who work with the police. There's not enough blacks in any of the positions that are mostly against us. And that's a lot of positions out here in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The educational system, we don't have high numbers in that. We don't have high numbers that sit in that government tables in committees and everything. So those numbers need to rise and become better and the whole police system needs to just, it's already crashed and now it needs to be reformed and rebuilt because when it was first put into Halifax, Nova Scotia, it was put into keep slaves from escaping. So that should just point out to everyone that if we're still going by that same exact rules, that should tell you that it still shows racism.

MG: When you see the police now, how do you react?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: I really don't look forward to interacting with them. The police now know of me because of the things I did with my two partners, Kay McDonald and Dorrico Simons. So they know of us. They don't bother us.

MG: And that's work that you're doing to try and create better relations between police in the black communities?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: Yeah. So it's pretty good. But it's not what I wanted. It's not what I want. I want my whole community, all black communities here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, to have a relationship with the police because right now we don't even have anyone to call when we're in a situation.

MG: Stay on the line with us, Trayvone. Trayvone Clayton is a young man from Halifax, Nova Scotia, who, as you heard, had an interaction with police when he was 16-years-old and has been reacting to the apology from the premier, Stephen McNeil. Tony Ince has been listening in. He is the Minister of African Nova Scotia Affairs. Minister Ince, good morning to you.

TONY INCE: Good morning.

MG: How common do you think Trayvone's story is among members of the black communities in your province?

TONY INCE: I would say that many members of my community has experienced similar or probably even worse encounters than Trayvone has. He has spoken as an individual who has experienced treatment that was not equitable and he and many others in the community and myself have in my past, we've had to deal with that. Let me just say, when I listened to Trayvone and hear him talk about his experiences and so many of us can sit back and say, yeah, yeah, I hear it and see it. You know, we have many good people in those uniforms, but there are still individuals within those systems that believe most of the rules don't apply to them, I believe.

MG: I mean, part of this is, is you as a politician, but also it's you as a black man in Nova Scotia. What did you make of the fact that the premier apologized now for this? We've had a long summer of what people have called a reckoning around systemic racism and anti-black racism. So when you hear your premier make that apology and you stood beside him as he did that, what went through your mind?

TONY INCE: What went through my mind is thank you, my friend. This has been a long time coming. The past six years we've been in government. Well, from 2013, when we've got elected, those issues were on the agenda. I sat with my premier and my colleagues and shared with them many of those challenges. Some of them, they are MLAs in predominantly black areas, hearing from their constituents. And while, you know, government, everything moves quite slow. But we've been adamant at making sure that we do our best while we're sitting in government to right the wrongs of the past.

MG: You said yesterday that decision makers and institutions, including law enforcement, can no longer abide by, in some ways what is broken. Why did they? Why has it taken to this point for an apology to have been made?

TONY INCE: Well, what I would say there are two separate things there. The premier made the apology because it is time. It is time. Most of everything that we're dealing with was raised when I was a young child in the 60s. It all should have been done then.

MG: Why wasn't it, do you think?

TONY INCE: Because we have a systemic system that isn't wasn't ready. And I would argue that we still have a systemic system that may be ready, but we have a huge hill to climb right now because of all the things that have gone on over the past 40, 50 years, where we all believed as a society we were moving in the right direction. It's clearly evident that we haven't.

MG: What happens now? How do you ensure that there is actual real action that comes out of an apology like this?

TONY INCE: Well, first of all, the first thing that made me so proud when I looked around that Walmart yesterday and saw the number of community members, both indigenous, black and white, in police chiefs from across the province and members from both RCMP and the Halifax Regional Police and careful police and so on. I'm telling you that for me was a huge step in the right direction. I said it's a step. There is a lot more work in this design team will hold us all accountable. This design team will raise recommendation's issues with community. Combined with the police, combined with government officials, and those recommendations will hold us to account.

MG: Just briefly, what's at stake if black and indigenous Nova Scotians don't see change?

TONY INCE: What's at stake? We're looking at the same thing going over in, we could be looking at a blooming pool, you never know. We're talking about people's lives. We're talking about livelihoods. We're talking about a way of life that many people have lived and that life that they lived wasn't quite honestly, the same is many other people in our society who have lived a life that for them was, you know, I'm looking for the right word, balanced, carefree. I'm not sure what the words are, but it's not equitable and that's all it is. All we want is to be treated the same as everyone else.

MG: Tony Ince is the Minister of African Nova Scotia Affairs. Trayvone Clayton has been listening in from Halifax. Trayvone, what do you make of what the minister has said about where this goes from here and why this apology is important now?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: It's there's a lot behind the apology. So, like I said before, actions speak louder than words. You have to back yourself up with this apology. When we had the new chief of Halifax, for the Halifax regional police, he came here, made an apology and now, he has to back his self up. He has to build trust with the communities. And so I'm expecting the premier to make those new recommendations and everything and I'm expecting him to back up his apology. Apology means a lot to people, but it don't mean nothing, if you're not standing for your word.

MG: What would you say to Tony Ince. He's listening now. What would you say to him?

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: What would I say to Tony? I know, Tony, at a personal level. I seen him before. I view him as a black individual, before I view him as his government position. And he knows. He knows what is going on is wrong. So Tony is looking to to help and do what he can do with the premier. So I give Tony my respects and everything, but like I said I'm not giving 100 percent of respect to government positions because I know things, it's politics. Things can change within the blink of an eye. It's politics. So as individual, Tony has my respect, but when it comes to government positions and everything, I'm not fully trusting it.

MG: Tony Ince, what would you say to Trayvone? There's a there's a good deal of suspicion there in as he says, it's politics.

TONY INCE: Well, yes and I can understand that. Trayvone and many community members, you know, as he's articulately expressed, you know, their lack of trust with government police officials and so on. And it's been repeated. Trayvone's got family members who have gone through the same thing. So when you're a young man and you're seeing anyone in your community and they're seeing a repeat of behaviour within our community and they're seeing that nothing was done from the top down, we have to earn their respect. We have put in place something that's not only an apology, but we've also put in place some actions to back up that policy. And all I can say to Trayvon and many community members that. My colleague and friend, the premiere is logit. He meant it. And he is not one who has from the beginning that I've been on this journey with him. He has tried his best to understand our position, and he has done a great job in putting forth policy, procedures, reviews to look at the behaviour so that we all in this province, all people can see themselves in the institutions that are reflecting them.

MG: It is people like Trayvone Clayton who will hold you and your government to account. Tony, it's it's a pleasure to have you on the program. Thank you very much.

TONY INCE: Thank you.

MG: And Trayvone Clayton, thanks again.

TRAYVONE CLAYTON: Thank you.

MG: Trayvone Clayton lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Tony Ince is the Minister of African Nova Scotian Affairs.

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Andre Picard on new restrictions across the country

Guests: Andre Picard

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

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VOICE 1: They're telling me who doesn't have children, that I can't go to a bar or a restaurant? And they're having children in classes of 25 or 30 people not wearing masks.

VOICE 2: I don't think that someone's mental health requires going to a bar or restaurant, whereas education and gym should stay open.

VOICE 3: As long distance truck driver my concern is basically having me go on a search to try and find something that's open where you can eat something where there is a toilet available.

A family, you can't have a grandparent over. Yet, you can have 25 people in a church. You know, these things seem very inconsistent.

MG: Callers on yesterday's Radio Noon Quebec, were not all that impressed with the province's latest COVID-19 crackdown. In Montreal and Quebec City, starting tomorrow, residents will go a month without meals in restaurants or visitors to their homes. Several Canadian cities and provinces are stepping up measures to meet the rising cases. In Toronto, public health officials say it might be time to scrap our social bubbles and limit contact to only the people you live with. In Winnipeg, officials are putting back restrictions from the earliest days of this pandemic. The Global Mail's health columnist, Andre Picard, has been keeping up with it all. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: How well do those callers represent the sentiments you're hearing in Montreal this week?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think those callers tell us, you know, it's across the board. There's all kinds of varieties of opinion and it's frustrating. I think everybody's frustrated, but we're divided between we have to do more or we've done too much. So, yeah, there's a good representation there of that variety.

MG: I mean, life is going to change in Montreal and Quebec City starting tomorrow. How if you speak with people, do they feel like these are steps that need to be taken or do they see it as an inconvenience? Maybe, we heard yesterday from a restaurant owner talking about the threat to his business. How are you hearing people respond?

ANDRE PICARD: I think there's a lot of resignation that we wish this was over, but a recognition that, boy, it's getting bad again. So I think people people understand there has to be some short term pain for longer term reopening in the economy, but it's really hard to digest in the short term.

MG: How could things be done differently this time around so that there isn't another lockdown or perhaps even a third lockdown if this doesn't go well?

ANDRE PICARD: I think what we've learned all along is there has to be clarity of the message. You know, what's the goal. I think what Quebec has done better this time around is the premier is very clear. He said our objective is to protect schools. So they made their priority schools and everything else is going to be second, that it's going to be closed down. That wasn't clear before. So I think that's a good sign. And contrast very much with Ontario, which is it's not clear what Ontario's goal. Is to keep schools open? Is it to protect businesses? There has to be a message there to the public so they can understand why they're making these sacrifices.

MG: Well, to your point around clarity of message in Toronto, the chief medical health officer, Dr Eileen de Villa, is calling for the end of social bubbles, especially now that kids are back in school. Dr David Williams, the provincial medical officer of health, says that the government is possibly looking at suggesting that people reduce the size of their social bubbles. If you have that sort of conflicting message, where does that leave the average person?

ANDRE PICARD: Well I think you've summed up the problem in Ontario for months now. There's really a lack of really clear public health messaging, and particularly from Dr Williams. It has to be said, it's just it's been a disaster. Anything he talks about, you come out with a more muddled message. You're not, you think you do what you what you're supposed to do going in and, you know, a lot less coming out. That really has to be addressed. That's a very severe problem in Ontario.

MG: Should he, I mean, there are doctors working the front lines, epidemiologists, others who say if he doesn't go, then the very least somebody else needs to step into that role alongside him. Is that what's required?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think so. I think at this point, it's been clear that he can't he's not the person who can garner trust in the public. So maybe he can do a good job in the backroom. I don't know, but they need a new face, the new and even new voice. Ontario desperately needs to Bonnie Henry, someone who has the trust of the public and holds it.

MG: It's interesting. Bonnie Henry is essentially saying stay home. Don't you know, be going out and hanging around with other people. You see Eileen de Villa in Toronto talking about the the end of those bubbles. Have the social bubbles failed? This idea was something that people across the country were calling for. If you look at it outside of the the Atlantic bubble, which has been largely a success, have social bubbles failed?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think that social bubble of their time has passed. You know, the more we open the economy to, the more difficult it is to maintain these artificial bubbles. So I think once schools open, the notion of a bubble went out the window. So I think we should we have to find some new language. We have to have clear rules, whether you call it a bubble or whatever, but I think that the rule from day one has been minimize your social contacts. And I think we have to find a way of delivering that message more clearly and succinctly.

MG: Reporting this morning suggesting that what's happening in schools perhaps is going better than people have expected, that for the most part, the vast majority of schools with COVID-19 only have one or two cases. Are you surprised with that?

ANDRE PICARD: No, I think we you know, we've talked about schools a lot. And I've always been a big proponent of it's really important to get kids back to school. And this is the best case scenario where you're hoping that there wouldn't be big outbreaks. So we I think we saw this in Europe, it gave us a good clue that our kids were actually bringing COVID into the school from the community, but they don't seem to be spreading it in schools, with very few exceptions. So we have about a thousand cases in schools across Canada, but only about a dozen schools where there's actually been spread in the school. So this is very good news and it's backed up by science that we've seen in the last week that children transmit a lot less than than adults and adolescents, especially among each year.

MG: There have been calls for provinces and jurisdictions to move back to Stage 2. We had a conversation last week with Dr. Patricia Daley in British Columbia and she talked about balancing the health concerns with the effects of another lockdown, the mental health issues, issues around addiction. Do you think there's enough emphasis on the collateral damage, if I can put it that way, of another lockdown?

ANDRE PICARD: I think we have to be really cognisant of that, that there's economic impacts as mental health impacts, there's cancelled surgery, all that stuff matters. But again, it is as she said, it's about balance. Do we do that for a short period to ensure that we don't do it for for a longer time? You know, if we don't have these restrictions in cases really take off even more, then we're going to be cancelling surgeries for many more months, not just for a few week.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have, I want to talk about another story that developed yesterday. And this is the story of an indigenous woman, Joyce Echaquan, who were seeking treatment at a Quebec hospital. She recorded what was happening at the end of her life. She's calling out for help and she's being taunted and mocked by staff in this hospital. It was really unsettling for people to hear. What does it tell you about the state of equity within our health care system?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it's a disgraceful incident. There's no question. And I think it tells us, it's a reminder, a sad reminder that we have this systemic racism within our system. For every case that we have a video for there's probably a hundred or a thousand others that aren't recorded. So I think it calls out to us to to address this. It's not the first case. You know, there's the Brian Sinclair case in Manitoba and Craig Mikan. There's a long, long list of these things happening over and over again. But once again, we have the benefit of social media video to remind us what's happening behind closed doors. And it's long overdue that this be addressed in a really serious, serious manner.

MG: Andre, we'll talk further about this and other matters in weeks ahead, I'm sure. In the meantime, thank you for this this morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard, health reporter and columnist for The Globe and Mail. He's been joining us regularly to talk about the pandemic response. Your regional update is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

[Batman theme song]

MG: 2020 hasn't been easy for anyone. You know what? In these times makes me think we could use a hero, maybe even a superhero. Coming up, the real life caped crusaders helping Canadians. I'm Matt Galloway The Current is back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

These real-life Canadian superheroes don masks and capes to help the homeless — and say you can do it too

Guests: Peter Nowak, Mark Sewell, Matthew Sewell

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Somewhere inside all of us, lives a hero.

VOICE 2: Somebody help me. Please I'm up here.

VOICE 1: It's the opportunity of a lifetime.

VOICE 3: I.

VOICE 4: I want to be.

VOICE 5: I want to be.

VOICE 6: A superhero.

VOICE 1: It's the chance to make lifelong fantasy.

MG: That's from a 2006 reality TV show hosted by the late comic book legend Stan Lee, in which people could compete to fulfil their fantasies of being superheroes to fly like Superman, spin webs like Spider-Man, maybe fly in the invisible plane like Wonder Woman. There are some people who have turned that fantasy into some version of reality.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Dan was calling 9-1-1, but help flew in before he finished dialling.

VOICE 2: From the right this guy comes dashing in, just wearing this skintight rubber black and golden suit and starts chasing him away.

VOICE 3: Batman is here to help.

VOICE 4: Spaghetti meatball is pretty good.

Thank you, Batman.

VOICE 3: Bringing food, water, blankets and socks.

VOICE 5: Thank you. Thank you.

VOICE 3: To some of Silicon Valley's most vulnerable residents.

VOICE 4: People ignore people out on the street, so I figured I'd draw as much attention as possible to the issue.

VOICE 6: Mild mannered by day, Chris Pollock will transform right before your eyes. Since his powers can only go so far, he doesn't forget the bullet-proof vest. Give him a minute. Soon he will become a force against evil. He is a real life superhero, part of a movement gaining momentum.

MG: Those real-life superheroes are indeed gaining so much momentum that Toronto journalist Peter Nowak decided to do his best Peter Parker and hit the streets to see what drives these heroes to dawn the capes and cowls. His new book is called The Rise of Real-Life Superheroes: And the Fall of Everything Else. Peter, good morning.

PETER NOWAK: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Tell me about these real-life superheroes and what they actually do in the real world there.

PETER NOWAK: They kind of do a lot of things, a lot of different things. They're basically just doing good deeds. I think if you were to sort of divide them into two camps, there is a group that basically try to fight crime. And when I say that it's, you know, basically trying to keep the peace and and try to watch out for things that are happening and maybe act as eyes and ears for the police. And in the second camp would be the you know, the groups that are out there doing mainly, kind of like homeless outreach. They're giving out supplies to almost people and basically trying to help out wherever they can find on the streets. You've got a bit of overlap between the two. So I think that's generally your two categories.

MG: And these are people who go out in costume?

PETER NOWAK: Yeah, they do. So it's a little bit different than cosplaying, which is cosplay is of course, where you create a costume based on some fictional character like Spider-Man or Batman and go to a, probably go to a comic book convention. Not these days, but in normal times. But the real-life superhero types, they will generally create a persona of their own, their own character, their own costumes. And then they go out and they try to actually do these good deeds. Much of the point of doing this is to draw attention to whatever it is that they're trying to do to heighten awareness of that problem.

MG: This dive into real-life superheroes for you begins, what, in the middle of a sleepless night?

PETER NOWAK: It does. Yeah, it did. I was having trouble getting to sleep one night and being the nerd that I am. I was lying there thinking, you know, how come nobody's tried to be Batman in the real world? You know, Batman doesn't have any superpowers. He's just got some gadgets and some training. And of course, he's rich, but that's that's neither here nor there. So I got up and I started looking around on the Internet realising, wow, there's actually quite a few of these people. There hasn't been a lot of, you know, academic research on this topic. But I did find at least one study out of Australia that found their prevalence just about everywhere. At any given time, there might be a couple hundred around the world, probably a good three quarters of them were actually found in the United States.

MG: And are these people who are inspired by fictional superheroes, Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman?

PETER NOWAK: Yeah, I think for the most part, they grow up reading comic books. They're watching the superhero movies, but it's not necessarily the case. I found a lot of them are actually ex-military types, especially in the US. You know, there seems to be a common thread where they might have been overseas, they might have been in Iraq or Afghanistan, and they come back to the U.S. and they're used to going out on patrols and looking for stuff going on. There was one study that calls it edge work. It's a way of injecting a little bit of almost thrill into one's life.

MG: Tell me more about this, because there are any number of ways you could go out and be part of a larger society. Why do these people feel as though the best way to contribute is to dress up in a costume and go out and pretend to be a superhero or, you know, plug themselves into a life that is inspired by the superheroes that they read in the comic books.

PETER NOWAK: There's a number of motivations there. One person explained it to me in a pretty good way, said there's sort of like a Superman archetype and then there's a Batman archetype. Everybody kind of knows Superman's origin story. He was from another planet. He was raised by, you know, farming parents who raised him to be the ultimate paragon of virtue, just a very good Boy Scout and so on, and just do good deeds. Some people come from that background. There's also the Batman archetype, which is as, again, we all know, his parents were murdered and his whole transition into the superhero world is a war of revenge. And it's like psychological therapy for him, too. This certainly motivates some people to become Real-Life superheroes. You know, they've got some trauma in their background. Maybe they were bullied as when they were younger. And then there's a third archetype, which I probably not many people know this is that the Booster Gold type. Booster Gold is another character from DC Comic Books. He's a character that comes back from the future and becomes a superhero specifically for the purpose of getting rich and famous. So there is some element of that. I think a lot of these real-life superheroes, they draw a little bit, at least from all three of those. They don't necessarily want to go through the trouble of becoming a police officer and having to follow those rules and or they wear the costume again to draw attention to the problem if it's homelessness, I found that to be pretty poignant because I think we're probably many of us are guilty of when we walk by homeless people on the street, we just kind of almost ignore them because we see them so often. And if you see somebody helping them, you might also actually kind of ignore that too. But if you see a bunch of guys and girls in costumes doing that, then you're going to notice. And I think it's the same on the the sort of the crime side of it as well. I think what on that front, what they're trying to say is stop being apathetic. And if you see something, get involved.

MG: This goes back quite a ways. I mean, when I was growing up, there was a TV show called That's Incredible. And in 1982, that show profiled a guy named Willie Perry, who was known as the Batman of Birmingham, in part because he drove around in his very own Batmobile. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

[1982 clip from That's Incredible]

MG: From the time machine in 1982. Who was Willie Perry?

PETER NOWAK: He was just a good samaritan. He got himself a car, tricked it out, put in everything in there. I believe he had like a toaster, a microwave with a Cadillac, an Atari game console. He had speakers and he would drive around the neighbourhood and just basically help people home with their groceries. There was one story where he drove by any saw some kids skipping rope. So he fired up some music for them to skip to ultimately. I believe he ended up dying because he was working on his car in his garage and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Yes. You know, there's a Willie Perry Day down in Alabama that they celebrate and there's a charity that they donate money to buying used cars for people. And so, yeah, he had quite the impact on his community.

MG: You go down to San Diego and you went to hang out with some real-life superheroes. Tell me a little bit about what that was like.

PETER NOWAK: Well, that was the Extreme Justice League. They're probably in over the past few years, they've probably been the most active of the real-life superhero teams. Mr. Extreme is their founder and their leader. And he had like a purple cape and he had this kind of like camouflage, military helmet. And then these big bug-eyed goggles that was him and other guys is Grim. He wears like a blue skull mask. Most of these guys wear heavy flak jackets, too. Another the guys, his name is Knight. He looks like the Batman villain Bane, where he's got this sort of like half mask on. But the guy's huge. He's a former Marine. He was actually wearing two layers of armour. He took it off at the end of the night and handed it to me and I could barely lift it. Why are they wearing all this armour? It's basically for protection. Downtown San Diego, the Gaslamp District, if you've ever been there, it is a massive concentration of bars and restaurants, and it is filled with so many combustible elements. You've got gangs. You've got tourists. The baseball stadium is there too. So when that's happening, you've got rowdy baseball fans. All of this on weekends really is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. And the police are very underfunded in San Diego. So this, the Extreme Justice League, San Diego police definitely tolerates them to the point where these guys are walking around and anything that goes on, they'll try to intervene and try to you know maintain the peace. Interestingly enough, they've actually trained in de-escalation techniques. And I watched them do this on a couple of occasions and they're quite good at it. They basically just try to separate the guys who are trying to get into a fight and try to talk them down, try to get them talking about different subjects. On one occasion, one of them was talking about the guy's shoes. So they defused that.. Mr Extreme, the founder of this group, he is actually a former leader of the Guardian Angels. He was a California branch leader. So it's this weird mishmash of Guardian Angels and military patrols and techniques. So it's very interesting to see.

MG: What sort of, you've hinted at this, what sort of relationship do they have with the police in San Diego?

PETER NOWAK: We stopped and we talked to a number of police while I was on patrol with them. I talked to the officer and he asked and I said, well, what do you think of these guys? And he said, they're out here every week. They're great. This was, I guess, a patrolman that is familiar with them. Not all the police like them. They're not as well liked in Seattle, for example. There you had a group of re-elect super heroes. They were led by a guy named Phoenix Jones, and they were pretty aggressive. And the Seattle police were not fans of these guys at all. In fact, Phoenix Jones ended up in court for a pepper spray incident that he was part of. So it really depends on the group. If they're seen to not be doing harm, then they're probably going to be more friendly with the police than not.

MG: You mentioned the Guardian Angels. And I mean, the Guardian Angels were strongly criticized when they appeared for being part of a vigilante movement, that they were taking the law in some ways into their own hands. And you tie in some ways this superhero movement, if I can call it that, in with vigilantism or with what's often called the entrepreneurial world of law enforcement. What's that tie?

PETER NOWAK: Right. So the United States has a very strong vigilante tradition in its very founding. So, as you know, as the country expanded west, there was lawlessness in a lot of those places. So, of course, vigilantes arose to basically keep law and order where none existed. And so that has in some ways given rise to entrepreneurial ism. And what I mean by that is the sort of do it yourself mentality. And I think a lot of that is prevalent in what you see in the U.S., in almost everything that you look at why there is such opposition to government control or government oversight of things even trickling down to things like health care. You know, there is a very strong feeling in the U.S. that you need to take care of yourself.

MG: Among the people you quote about that issue is Kareem Abdul Jabbar. What is Kareem Abdul Jabbar, basketball legend, have to say about vigilante ism and the superhero movement?

PETER NOWAK: He's a little bit mixed on it. He's very much a big comic book fan. He wrote a comic last year for Marvel Comics, or I think he wrote a few pages of a comic book, but he is concerned about the types of heroes that people have these days. He's concerned about vigilantes being held up as heroes in pop culture. And I think that's a warranted concern, especially this year. You know, we've seen a lot of with the civil unrest in the United States and Black Lives Matter. Personally, I find that a character like Batman is maybe not necessarily as poignant today as he was, you know, maybe 10 years ago. This is a character who his identity is unknown. He's dressed in black. He's rich. He's white. He's got military hardware. And he's going around beating up people with no accountability. And for the most part, he's friendly with the police. In today's environment, I don't know how that flies as much as it used to.

MG: Are there superheroes that you've met, real-life superheroes that feel like, you know, they have some sort of alliance with the police that they should be working alongside the police?

PETER NOWAK: I think I did get that sense with the Extreme Justice League in San Diego. In fact, I think there's a bit of a rift going on there in the team. So I mentioned Grim before, he is an African-American guy and he's actually recently split from the team because of this. They do have a bit of a difference of opinion when it comes to Black Lives Matter. So there is a difference of opinion as to how far they should be working with police. I think a number of them are re-evaluating what they do and that whole position going forward.

MG: This is a really widespread movement. I mean, you started it in the middle of the night doing this research and it turns out not just that there's an entire book in this, but there are people across North America who are involved in this movement.

PETER NOWAK: And I think it's a little bit of a cyclical thing that the most recent spread was around 2011-2012, HBO did a documentary on the subject. It was just it was called Super Heroes. That really motivated a lot of people to take up the mask, so to speak. You also had Kickass the movie, which is a fictional movie, but it was almost kind of a meta movie because it was about a teenager who has the exact same thoughts that I did, which is how come nobody's tried this in real life? And then of course he does. So you had those two things that really motivated a lot of people to do this.

MG: And not just an American phenomenon. There are Canadian real-life superheroes as well. And we have a couple of them who are on the line with us. Urban Knight and Canadian Justice, alter egos of two brothers from Windsor, Matthew and Mark Sewell. Superheroes, hello to you.

MATTHEW SEWELL: Hello.

MARK SEWELL: Hey, how's it going?

MG: Mark Sewell, you are Canadian Justice. Describe what you look like.

MARK SEWELL: A couple of different looks. The main one is black cargo pants and shirt with a stab resistant vest I bought when I was working as a security guard, although mainly I got it for this and a camouflage balaclava. I got a badge that says Canadian Justice Enforcement and Rescue Squad on it and generally some form of a cut resistant glove. And the other one kind of got like the military boonie hat I think it's called with camouflage face mask and level three bullet resistance vest. So it's more for in the summer because it looks terrible with a leather jacket over it. Oh, yeah, there's a leather jacket that goes with the other look.

MG: It's a lot. Urban Knight, I'm looking at a photo of you. Describe what you would wear out on a regular excursion into the real world.

MATTHEW SEWELL: Well, my standard format is camouflage pants, combat style boots and a mediæval breastplate and backplate secured to some hockey shoulder pads. They're complemented with a chain mail quaff around my head and neck. I like to just be a little different than the typical masked superhero there and kept my face exposed.

MG: When you go out with all of that on, in the chain mail, cloth and the camouflage, what do you do?

MATTHEW SEWELL: Typically it's been just a homeless outreach, but it's also the elements of there kind of promoting the medieval knight aesthetic of chivalry and draws some intrigue from society towards what I'm doing there, because it's not every day you see someone dressed up like a variant of a medieval knight now walking around.

MG: No, it's not that common. You say homeless outreach. Tell me a bit more about that.

MATTHEW SEWELL: I started out bringing clothing out to the homeless and care packages as far as like feminine hygiene products and socks and toothpaste, toothbrushes and granola bars, simple food stuffs there to pick them up, get them through the day and let them know that there's a part of society that recognizes them as human beings and give them a little bit of the added motivation.

MG: And it was your brother that inspired you to put the costume on and get out there and do this work?

MATTHEW SEWELL: Most certainly.

MG: Yeah. Mark, what do you do when you were in costume and you're out on the street, what are you up to?

MARK SEWELL: Basically, it's pretty simple. Show up there with a whole bunch of stuff and walk around till it was gone. And initially we had someone from Toronto that went by the name of Art Guard who had worked downtown security and knew the biggest concentrations of homeless, especially at the time near Moss Park with the like, now there's a large encampment there at Moss Park. Before there wasn't that, but there was a Salvation Army around there and a lot of homelessness and drug issues. So he would go there to hand out the things. And in Windsor, oh five years ago, we didn't have like we had homeless people, we didn't have street homeless people. Like there wasn't, like people had a place to go, even if it was couch surfing. Over the last five years, it's increased to the point where now I've kind of made it a part of my just my daily life. Like, for instance, tomorrow before heading off to check out the new comics, I'll be going to our largest homeless encampment and just basically bring some water and some face masks to them.

MG: In costume.

MARK SEWELL: That probably won't be so much in costume. I found that, I mean the group missions are always with costume. On my own it's sometimes in costume. Sometimes it's just elements of the costume. Sometimes it's just me. I don't really draw a line between me just waiting for the bus and wearing a T-shirt and me wearing all this stuff. I mean, obviously you can draw the most attention when you're sticking out like a sore thumb the most, but if you only do things, then I think it kind of cuts down on the ability to get out there and do things. You know, there's a certain element of look at me, look at me, because it brings attention to the cause, but the big thing is helping people out.

MG: Do you feel different when you put the costume on?

MARK SEWELL: I would say initially, certainly, yes. Over time we've been doing this about seven years now, less over time.

MG: What about you, Urban Knight? When you when you put on the chain mail, do you feel like you have, I don't know, a greater power to do good because you're in costume?

MATTHEW SEWELL: I suppose within reason there. I mean, it doesn't change neither a much as an individual, but it has a little empowering there being a force in good and community and being noticed for it. I've always been met with positive reactions to my outfit in particular there. Canadian Justice and I went off to Chicago Hope Mission. Going along one overpass there I heard from down there oh man, there's a knight. It was all really enthusiastic about what they're seeing. So it's I draw a lot of, there's a lot of positive experiences that are wrapped up in to my persona there. So every time I put it on, it does endeavour a good feeling within me there. On top of that I think it looks cool.

MG: Yeah, it looks cool too. How do people respondm Mark, when you're out there on the street in your costume with a group of people?

MARK SEWELL: It's been generally pretty good. I mean, the very first time we went out in 2013, it was unfortunately close to the G20 protests, flash riots and so being the first time, a lot of people thought that there was a group of terrorists and some of them ran away screaming and called the cops. Since then, it's actually been pretty positive. And actually, especially with Urban Knight's outfit, that's been a huge help when you have a guy walking around looking like an actual knight. It's an obvious, friendly presence. People think of a knight in shining armour, they think of someone going out to do harm. So that's the other thing about a persona, like everyone's having their own look also makes it more memorable, especially when it was like a once a year thing to Toronto. The same people that we helped the next year, they would remember us, whereas as Peter was saying, you just go there and hand someone a sandwich, which we have seen an increasing amount of people just going out there and doing it, but they blend into the background and they're not remembered even by the people they're helping as much. And I've also found it really helps to kind of break the ice. It's a conversation starter.

MG: Peter Nowak, it's interesting in hearing about the work that they're doing. It sounds very different than some of the superheroes that you portray and that you follow in the United States.

PETER NOWAK: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, it's almost stereotypical. It's a kinder and gentler type of superhero, I guess you could say. But, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that I think, you know, we generally don't have the sort of, you know, vigilante tradition. We don't have that same distrust of authorities.

MG: Are all the real life superheroes men?

PETER NOWAK: No, actually. There's quite a few women. Canadian Justice and Urban Knight, one of their other members is T.O. Ronin. Yeah I met and talked to a number of girls and women who do this. And definitely a lot more men, but they're representing out there.

MG: What about superheroes across the spectrum? We have seen, I mean Marvel had huge success with Black Panther. They're in the midst of further diversifying their superhero realm and bringing in other cultures to better represent the people who consume the comic books and consume superhero movies. Is that being reflected on the streets and the lives of real-life superheroes?

PETER NOWAK: Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, going back again to San Diego's Extreme Justice League, it's a veritable mishmash of everybody you'd expect. They've got members who are Asian. They've got members who are African-American. Going up to San Francisco, there's Aaron Almonza who goes by the name of Shu Darko. He's a gay male. Yeah, there's definitely a cross section heroes of pretty much everybody you can imagine. And also, you've got people who are more conservative. You've got people who are more liberal. So there's no real one size fits all, I think, for who does this.

MG: Matthew, you can imagine perhaps some people would see you in chain mail and go, what is this guy doing walking around dressed up like an Urban Knight? What is it that you think people perhaps could learn from the work that you're doing as a real-life superhero?

MATTHEW SEWELL: That well, number one, don't you take yourself too seriously in life there. I never do it, and I like dressing up in interesting fashion, but the big thing there is that you can get involved, you can say hello to that homeless person there and treat them like a person there. And I think we're setting a good example for a society to follow by don't have to all dress up funny like us there.

MG: What about for you, Mark? Is there a lesson that us non superheroes could take away from the work that you superheroes are doing?

MARK SEWELL: I'd say mainly just get involved and sometimes it doesn't take a lot to really make a difference. The first time we went to Toronto, there was a guy, at least 60, who started crying actually after we've given him a couple of things. And it was just the fact that someone actually took the time to talk to him as a human being that it had been so long. And also, like when it comes to, like, stopping a crime, you don't have to be running in there and be covered in armour and stuff. It's just don't give people the privacy to do bad things and anyone can make the difference. Apathy is the biggest problem. Just pay attention. That's it. Just to be a good human being.

MG: Peter, having written this book, have you been lured into the world of relief superheroes? Do you have an alter ego that I don't know about?

PETER NOWAK: No, definitely not. And there were a couple of attempts by some of these guys to lure me in, but I resisted. That said though, I've talked to other people who have documented this, whether it's through film or other books and I think that the experience is uniform amongst all of us, which is that it's hard to really get into this world without being affected by it positively. At the very least, you know, I was certainly as guilty as anybody of of of having those blinders on whenever I see homelessness. I'd like to say that's a little bit better now. I do at least exchange a few words, if not do something for them. So to that extent, what they're doing is it's a very small level, but it's at least succeeding.

MG: Urban Knight and Canadian Justice, thank you for the work that you're doing and good to speak with you. Thank you so much.

MATTHEW SEWELL: Thank you.

MARK SEWELL: Not a problem.

MG: And, Peter, thanks so much for the book.

PETER NOWAK: My pleasure.

MG: Take care.

PETER NOWAK: You too.

MG: Urban Knight in Canadian Justice joined us from Windsor, Ontario. And Peter Nowak was in Toronto. His new book is called The Rise of Real-Life Superheroes: And the Fall of Everything Else.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: "I Am Woman" By Helen Reddy]

MG: That's it for The Current for today. Q is up next. Tom Power speaking with Jean Yoon of the great Kim's Convenience. Before we go, we wanted to note the death of Helen Reddy. Iconic songs, including the one you're hearing now, "I Am Woman" made her the world's top-selling female vocalist in the early 1970s. She was 78 and had been diagnosed with dementia. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "I Am Woman" by Helen Reddy]

The Current Transcript for September 30, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Unpacking the first US presidential debate and the themes facing American voters ahead of November’s election

Nova Scotia promises action after apology for systemic racism

Andre Picard on new restrictions across the country

These real-life Canadian superheroes don masks and capes to help the homeless — and say you can do it too

Sept. 30, 2020 episode transcript

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