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The Current Transcript for September 28, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We've been guided by science since the very beginning. And right now, both the COVID-19 vaccine task force and the immunity task force are doing important work to help us identify the most promising vaccine options and strategies.

MATT GALLOWAY: As the world hunts for a COVID-19 vaccine, Canada's vaccine task force has been charged with ensuring that we get the shots at works. Now, a prominent member of that task force has resigned over concerns about transparency and connections with Big Pharma. We'll hear from him in 30 minutes. Also this morning, one place that COVID isn't spreading, the NHL bubble. As the Stanley Cup finals wrap up with no fans in the rink, a look inside the weird world that these players have been living in. And later, he claimed he was a member of ISIS and had snuck into Syria.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We basically crawled under broken parts of the border and just ran in.

MG: Now, a Canadian suspected of being a terrorist has been charged with making it all up. But first, almost two months after that enormous explosion ripped through Lebanon's capital, we head back to a country still engulfed in turmoil. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music: theme]

Documentary: The Clocks

Guests: Margaret Evans

MG: Lebanon has been thrust into another political impasse over the weekend, Prime Minister designate Mustapha Adib resigned only a month after he took the job. His appointment was part of a plan by the French president, Emmanuel Macron, to bring stability to that country. Lebanon is facing its worst economic crisis in modern history, made worse by the devastating explosion at the beginning of August, which left 190 people dead and more than 6000 injured. Lebanese people are now struggling to both clean up and decide what to do next while facing political and financial upheaval. The CBC's Margaret Evans was in Lebanon in the weeks following the blast, talking to the people affected. Here's her documentary, The Clocks.

SOUNDCLIP

MARGARET EVANS: A pile of clocks sits at the end of a passageway. Five of them arranged on a mound of broken concrete under a tree and all around destruction. It's a tableau that could have been pulled from the mind of one of the surrealist painters. But this is Beirut, 2020, trying to piece itself back together again. The clocks all stopped working just a little after 6:00 p.m. on the 4th of August. That's when nearly 3000 tons of ammonium nitrate blew up in the city's main port just across the highway. The hulking remains in the distance of the grain silos that once fed the country are the only things left standing in a blackened landscape. Spray painted on the road shoulder or the words, "My government did this." 76-year-old Abdo Farroun, is the owner of the clocks and the walls of the 200 year old building they once hung upon, the house he was born in. He leads the way inside, past workers in hardhats clearing heavy bags of rubble. And you can almost hear an internal Rolodex flipping through memories at speed. The roof is falling in and the walls on one side closest to the port have been blown clear off a sofa. Still upright faces the new view. It's like standing in a doll's house as if a big hand might reach in and start rearranging furniture. Maybe even you. The labourers are not Farrouz. They work for a civil engineer and philanthropist named Riyad al-Assad. And the old man wants us to know that he's the only one who's offered him any help. Not the government.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: Whenever I help, I ask to simplifications. Do you plan to sell your house, if he says no, it means I can. Second thing, are you planning to leave this country? If he says no, it means I've been obliged to help.

MARGARET EVANS: Assad now in his 60s says he's trying to help shore up as many as 11 damaged buildings in the area, all dating back to Ottoman times with the French mandate that followed. There are fears developers will try to buy up homes people can't afford to fix and put up high rises in their place.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: This guy was born in this house and he wants to die this house. And this guy has been waiting for somebody to come and say hi.

MARGARET EVANS: Like so many here. Assad says Lebanon is broken.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: We live in a country where we can expect anything from anybody but ourselves.

MARGARET EVANS: The country was already suffering before the explosion. The economy and the Lebanese pound in freefall. Blame assigned to a corrupt political class, enriching itself at the expense of its own people. For decades, many see dangerous chemicals being allowed to sit unattended for years as an extension of that neglect. And every day, more and more of those who can are leaving.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: We used to say we fight for our kids. But our kids don't want us to fight for them. They've left, so we're fighting for ourselves. We're not fighting for the memory, but we're fighting for whatever we believed in and stood by.

Dr. Peter Noun, can be found four levels below ground at the St. George Hospital. Less than two kilometres from the port, it too, was shattered by the blast. Its emergency room knocked out of commission along with the rest of the hospital just when it was needed most. There are only two elevators working. The doors of the others bent out of shape by the blast. A man is stationed in each, armed with a small table and an old fashioned telephone you can call to summon a lift. Debris still hangs from the ceilings of dimly lit corridors. But Dr Noun carries a bit of his own light, energetic, engaged and clearly a favourite with his young charges, a bit of a paediatric oncologist. He's been working to get the hospital's outpatient chemotherapy suite up and running again. They used to be on the ninth floor. How does it feel to get even this much functioning again?

PETER NOUN: We're not comfortable here. We're not in our place, but we're back. This is a sign that we will continue.

MARGARET EVANS: On the night of the explosion, amidst chaotic scenes, many of Noun's patients were transferred to other hospitals, including Hannah Samoor and her daughter Yasma, now in Byblos, north of Beirut.

HANNAH S: I didn't hear Yasma's voice. I thought first that she's dead. The ceiling was down. The wardrobes everything. I went inside. I hear her voice before I reach there, she was screaming and asking, what's going on? I say, I'm here, I'm coming.

MARGARET EVANS: At the age of five, Yasma is already a veteran of long hospital stays. She has leukaemia and was awaiting a bone marrow transplant at the time of the explosion. Her mother says it has stolen any sense of security the family has tried to build around Yashma.

HANNAH S: When all your focus is that you want the full recovery for your daughter and then you find yourself very weak and you are no more strong enough to stand up again and continue. You feel like you need some help from supposed to be from your country. Supposed.

MARGARET EVANS: Her husband, Zain Nasir Aldin scoffs at the thought of it.

ZAIN N: 30 years, we'll have the same leaders. We give them first chance, second chance, third chance. We give them many chances to just change or get the few needs for Lebanese people and then we didn't get anything from them.

MARGARET EVANS: The family is now making plans to leave. Hopefully, they say, for Canada, where Samoor has a brother in Ottawa.

HANNAH S: The explosion took to be the step that it's enough. Everybody should say it's enough. But when you're still seeing people following the politicians and clapping for them, that mean there's no hope in this country.

MARGARET EVANS: Even Dr Nu says he'll send his children abroad, at least to study, although he himself will stay.

PETER NOUN: It's sad. It's sad to see our kids leaving, it's sad to see our friends leaving. This week I have I said goodbye to many people.

MARGARET EVANS: He points to another set of parents with a sick little boy in their arms.

PETER NOUN: These parents want to leave to Canada because they have no more job or little job with a small salary. And his kid has cancer and he cannot afford to continue.

MARGARET EVANS: Eighty percent of Lebanon's hospitals are privately run and the public ones are overwhelmed. Noun runs a charity called Kids First to help those who can't afford treatment. But those donations are drying up too, as Lebanon's middle classes slip into poverty. The banks controlling how much of their own savings people can withdraw.

PETER NOUN: We are coming again to St. George, but financially we are so bad. So I know even if we have our places, our unit again. But the people are really so poor now.

MARGARET EVANS: Lebanon's would-be revolutionaries, they're still toiling, although their efforts have been sidetracked by both COVID-19 and the explosion. They've set up what they call their base camp near an old train station in a neighbourhood called Marmehal. Volunteers in masks, packed sugar and flour into food parcels and others come and go with shovels and brooms, still helping people try to restore order to homes and businesses. And a hub of young men and women tap away at computers in a tent determined to account for all the money coming in and going out they say, unlike the Lebanese government. These are the activists who've been marching for change since last fall when the economic crisis started to really take hold.

MAROUN KARAM: People are relying on us. So we are taking the place of the government, we are building the houses from wood, glass, aluminium and everything. We are giving food boxes and hot meals as well giving cleaning equipments and medications. We're doing everything.

MARGARET EVANS: Maroun Karam founded a group called My Home Is Your Home during the pandemic to help health care workers find places to stay when they needed to isolate from their families. Now they're finding homes for people who've lost them. He believes the Lebanese are ready to abandon the sectarian political system so many critics say has enabled chronic corruption in the country.

MAROUN KARAM: When we are going to each and every house and you are speaking to each and every family, they say we don't need any of these parties. Fine. And they ask us, who are the alternative? Who is the alternative? We are the alternative.

MARGARET EVANS: But not one strong enough, at least so far, to transform itself into a cohesive electoral body, able to transcend sectarian divisions that still do run deep.

[Demonstrators chanting]

MARGARET EVANS: Members of the Free Patriotic Movement staging a demonstration opposite the blackened entrance to the Beirut port. They're supporters of the Lebanese president, Michel Aoun, a Christian Maronite now in his 80s and emblematic of the sectarian dynasties that dominated Lebanon during its 15 year long civil war and still maintain their grip on power today. "God, Lebanon and Aoun only," they're chanting. They're not happy with criticism of Aoun, who, along with the country's acting prime minister at the time, was warned about the dangers of the chemicals in the port in July.

VOICE: You know, we've been with the president of the republic since 1989. So we learned through the years and experiences you pass through to trust him.

MARGARET EVANS: Aoun and his party's ally, the powerful Shia militant group Hezbollah have both paid lip service to the idea of a new pact for Lebanon. But talk to a few people here on the ground and exceptionalism starts to creep in. John Ibrahim is a teacher.

JOHN IBRAHIM: Yeah, definitely. We need a new pact because it has proven to back all the corrupt politician that took the leads here in Lebanon after 1990. They were like mafia and we need to, we need to get rid of them pretty soon.

MARGARET EVANS: What about the people who say that includes Aoun?

JOHN IBRAHIM: Definitely not. President Aoun has never been in the corruption. President Aoun is now leading now a kind of revolution against corruption. Corruption took place after 1990. Who's the corrupt politicians? Those who led us here. Those who are now gathering against the president.

[Sounds from demonstrations]

MARGARET EVANS: Aoun presides over his broken country from the palace that comes with the job on a hill overlooking Beirut. Since the explosion, he's emerged as if from cold storage to greet various foreign emissaries at stiff photo ops. The French president, Emmanuel Macron, leading the way followed at the end of August by Canada's external affairs minister, François-Phillipe Champagne.

[Sounds from meeting of President Aoun and Francois Phillipe Champagne]

MARGARET EVANS: Then they disappear for meetings in private where Aoun would be told his country must change or receive no more foreign assistance, at least not through government channels.

FRANCOIS-PHILLIPE CHAMPAGNE: What I was telling him is that seize the moment. Be ambitious. The street has spoken you know loud and clear about what they expect and I think this is a moment to rethink Lebanon, a Lebanon that'[d be inclusive and be resilient. That was a message from the heart to the president, and I hope that message will be heard.

MARGARET EVANS: But faith in meaningful change is hard to find. And in the meantime, the country continues to haemorrhage its youth as they too rethink Lebanon.

ALI HAIDER: You know, Lebanon before the explosion was living a huge disaster economically, politically, security-wise, you know, and the explosion was like the knock out.

MARGARET EVANS: 23-year-old Ali Haider works for a local NGO helping people register for aid in one of the badly stricken neighbourhoods near the port. A centre visited by Champagne during his trip. If you could leave, would you leave?

ALI HAIDER: I am working on leaving honestly but because of the COVID-19 because of the restrictions made on the Lebanese people regarding visas, regarding residences out of Lebanon, it's been very hard.

MARGARET EVANS: The Canadian foreign minister who was just here keeps talking about the message and the resilience of the young people and about how the young people are going to rebuild Lebanon. But if you all want to leave, how can that happen?

ALI HAIDER: You know, if you he would have said that ten years before, I could have understand it. But now the Lebanese youth look at Lebanon and hopeless. We are literally hopeless, literally hopeless.

[Prayer calls]

MARGARET EVANS: Most days in Beirut, especially when the sun is setting, you can spot people pulling over to the side of the highway overlooking the damaged port and those grain silos still standing in silent accusation. They get out to take pictures or selfies against the backdrop of another marker in time, one with a before and an after. Some turn and look at the damage on the other side of the road where the old houses somehow managed to look embarrassed as if their shorn walls have exposed their modesty. Up on the roof, though, Riyad Al-Assad remains determined.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: I don't believe in giving up. I don't believe this place is worth giving up. I don't believe this place is a hotel. I believe this space is worth fighting for.

MARGARET EVANS: But he doesn't point a finger at the young people choosing to leave.

RIYAD AL-ASSAD: You guys come and open your doors, open your hearts and these Lebanese youngsters find another home. I mean, what can I tell these guys? Go revolt? They did the revolution. They fired on them. What can you ask from them? I mean, they did their studies. They were brilliant. They're innovative. They're resilient. They're patriotic. And unlike the older generation, they don't feel any difference with a Christian or Muslim. So what can I tell them? Stay?

[Prayer calls]

MARGARET EVANS: It's not the first time Lebanon has measured the depth of its pain and the ebbs and flows of its population. Far from it. But somehow this feels different. The clocks may have stopped that day in August, but time is running out for Lebanon.

MG: We've been listening to the documentary, The Clocks. And Margaret Evans joins me now. Margaret, good morning.

MARGARET EVANS: Hi, Matt.

MG: Thank you for that. That was fantastic. We have a couple of minutes. I just have a couple of quick questions coming out of that. One is that the latest over the weekend is the prime minister designate has quit. And so any efforts to try to form a new government for that country are out the window. What went wrong?

MARGARET EVANS: Well, it was never going to be easy. I think they you know, they've had several failed governments over the past year or so. People on the street will tell you what they want is a government of experts, technocrats. But that means convincing these powerful factions that have fed on a sectarian power sharing system since the end of the civil war in 1990 that they have to give it up. Lebanon hands out positions based on religion. The president is always a Christian Maronite, the prime minister, a Sunni speaker, a Shia. And then you have the influence of Iran and the United States kind of coming in as well. And you saw Hezbollah saying is the powerful Shia militant group accusing the United States of trying to interfere and saying that they were going to reject the president or the prime minister designate some suggestions. He wanted a cabinet of experts of his own choosing. Didn't happen.

MG: So given all of that and the suspicion that you heard him on the streets there, I mean, the country needs money now and it needs to figure out how to get that money quickly. What's the likelihood that a new government could be formed in the coming weeks?

MARGARET EVANS: I think it's going to be extremely difficult unless that there unless there's an external pressure. You know, we saw the French president to get candidates and its foreign foreign minister saying, you know, you have to do this or we won't help you anymore. But how do you pressure a group like Hezbollah? And it's not just Hezbollah. All of these these political factions have militias. There's tension. And and and Hezbollah, as you know, is famously called a state within a state. And its people will tell you that it's actually more powerful than the Lebanese state, convincing, you know, them to to give up control mechanisms that the things that it has power over the ports, Beirut airport, all of that, it's extremely difficult. I think a lot will depend on how the people react. But unless you can give people hope, they will continue to leave. And that leaves people, you know, the people left behind or the poor and the powerless, and they will go back to their clans. If, you know, if there isn't a strong central government that's going to protect them, they go back to that, to what they know. And that's what makes people worried, you know, about potentially even a return to civil war. If things don't change, then they're looking at a failed state.

MG: And yet and just in the last couple of seconds, you hear that really powerful line that, you know, it's a place worth fighting for. There's still that belief that the place is worth struggling for.

MARGARET EVANS: That's absolutely the case. But I have to say, you know, I've covered Lebanon for years and years and it's kind of a myth that they themselves, you know, Lebanon will rise again. Beirut will rise again. I have never seen it this despairing. I have never seen as many people saying, that's it, I'm leaving. It isn't going to change. I might love it, but I'm going.

MG: Margaret, thank you.

MARGARET EVANS: It's a pleasure. Thanks.

MG: The CBC's Margaret Evans. Her documentary, The Clocks was produced along with Stephanie Jenzer and Jean-Francois Bisson. The Current's documentary editor is Liz Hoath. The CBC News is next. And then what's happening behind the closed doors of Canada's vaccine task force? One of the members has resigned over transparency concerns. We'll hear why coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music]

Expert who quit Canada's Vaccine Task Force says more transparency needed to ensure public trust

Guests: Gary Kobinger

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, the RCMP brings charges against a Canadian for lying about being involved with ISIS. It is quite a story. But first, troubled behind the scenes of Canada's COIVD vaccine taskforce.

[Music: theme]

MG: As candidate races to secure deals to buy vaccines that are still in development, the task force advising the government about where to spend those millions of dollars has lost a high profile member. Gary Kobinger, Director of the Infectious Disease Research Centre at the Universite Laval stepped down over concerns about a lack of transparency in this process. He was part of the team that also created a successful vaccine for Ebola, and he's now working on a COVID-19 vaccine as well. Gary Kobinger, good morning.

GARY KOBINGER: Good morning.

MG: Why did you decide that you could not stay on the vaccine task force?

GARY KOBINGER: Well, you know, as I said earlier, it was mainly three points, one of which was the time amendment was extremely demanding. The second one was, in my view, in relation to all the advisory board and all I did not agree with the fact that the conflict of interest of the members were not being made public. And, you know, in this case now, so this was resolved. But this is several weeks ago that I decided to stop my my participation to the task force.

MG: Why was it important? If you take a look at the issue of transparency, why was it important from your perspective that people on an advisory board like this make their affiliations and potential conflicts of interest public?

GARY KOBINGER: It's important because especially in the world of vaccine, you know, as soon as you're involved in clinical development of those vaccine advanced clinical development, it involves companies. And, you know, it's it's normal traffic expert run table, that half conflict of interest. It's not about if they do or not, it's about how you manage that. And to make them public, I think is important. And this is what is being done somewhere else because of that other places, other boards. And it brings confidence. This is the main point is to be very transparent in everything that is related to vaccine development, especially these days as people are concerned that because of the great speed, which we're all very happy to see, at the same time, there is questioning about whether or not, you know, that that speed is is that depen of of, for example, safety, which is absolutely not the case. But again, the best way to to minimise those misinformation to circulate or a conspiracy theories is to be fully transparent so that people understand exactly what is being done. Why are decisions being made? And they can they can voice their opinion to it even.

MG: So just to be clear, I mean, I want to talk about the issue of trust in a moment. But from your perspective, as somebody who is on that board, you were worried that perhaps if there were potential conflicts of interest, that we as the public wouldn't know about them?

GARY KOBINGER: Exactly, and then maybe these. And listen. I mean, these things always come out one one way or the other. And so I think it would be a disservice to the community and the task force I think has a very important role. And he's doing a very important job, too, to see those conflict of interest coming out in later days, undermining public confidence about that, the the recommendation of the task force. So, again, it's just that if you are transparent in all these options and quite frankly, these millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, these are every dollar of love. That is taxpayer dollars, they are paying for it. So I think the art, they have the right to know every little details of how these decision and recommendations, they are only a recommendation to the government, the federal government, the federal government, as other sources of information. Do you make the call? They could decide not to follow the recommendation and this is even more so why I think transparency is needed.

MG: I spoke with the co-chairs of the vaccine task force and we asked them about transparency. Dr. Joanne Langley of Dalhousie University said that it's not standard policy to require members of volunteer boards to publicly declare potential conflicts. Have a listen to what the doctor said.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We have a very robust conflict of interest process in place. We are a volunteer board. So no one is being paid to do this work on the task force. We're doing it because we love Canada and we are compelled to see this as the first priority in our lives right now.

MG: Do you have a sense as to why vaccine task force members would be reluctant to make these affiliations public?

GARY KOBINGER: No, and I don't understand. I think this is incomprehensible to have a statement like this. You know, I think in the same interview, Dr. Langley, even when and said that the money from some private institution company went to an institution and not directly to her and that was not a conflict of interest. And I beg to differ. I think that it's not for me to decide if it is or not, but, you know, there is a conflict of interest and the appearance of a conflict of interest. And I think community should decide that if there is an apparent cause, eventually there's a real conflict of interest. And I personally think that it's not because it's a I think her argument was, you know, it's I'm giving my time here. I'm not being paid for this, so I don't have to disclose it. I don't understand the logic behind this. I don't think this is helping the cause of of communicating to the public about why does decision and recommendation are being made. So I don't know. I don't agree. But, you know, again, I'm not the one to decide. I think this conflict of interest needs to be disclosed. And in some cases, like other board I'm on. Actually, they are being evaluated by a committee where there's ethicists, public health, individual and so on, so forth, that have a clear understanding. In my view and clearly rules about what constitutes a plan versus a real conflict of interest or the absence of a conflict.

MG: Well, I was going to say, I mean you do sit on a number of advisory boards. We got a statement from the National Research Council after that interview with Dr. Langley saying that it had taken, the Research Council had taken, in its words, the exceptional step of publishing a registry of declared interests. Is something like that an exceptional step?

GARY KOBINGER: I hope not. Quite frankly, I hope not. I don't know. I don't know all the rules in Canada about the advisory board. Quite frankly, I am on and I've been on more international based advisory board. I hope it's not an exception because to me, this is just the normal way to conduct these these businesses or if you want like those advisory board, it should be the rule, not the exception. But again, I was also struck by this word that this is an exceptional situation, which it is.I'm not saying it's not. It is an exceptional situation, but I don't see the exception of being transparent. Why should it be an exception?

MG: We asked to speak with Navdeep Bains, who's the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry. He wasn't available, but his office sent a statement that in part pointed out, as you've mentioned, that the task force doesn't make these funding decisions, that its advice, in the office's words, complements the due diligence and analysis conducted by Innovation, Science and Economic Development, Canada, Health Canada, Public Services, Procurement Canada and others. So if they aren't spending the money, why is this transparency so important?

GARY KOBINGER: Well, it's still the task force was again I think an important role. Otherwise, it wouldn't be there, you know, spending so much hours and great people with great expertise advising, if it wouldn't be important. And I think recognizing the importance of the task force is not I don't think I want to spend, again, this argument not saying, well, anyway, are not deciding anything, so they don't have to be transparent. I don't, I disagree with this. I think if you have a task force that is doing a good job or an important role that's playing an important role, whether or not they decide is not the point. I think, again, they may influence the recommendation may be taken and then they have to be transparent. I mean, I would push this a bit more. More ahead. I would say that if the government decides to not take the recommendation, there could also be transparency there an explanation as to why? Is it maybe because anyway, the doses are not available of the vaccine that is being recommended? That's one thing easy to explain is there other parts of the decision making that are at play and why not explaining to the public why the recommendation I'd taken and why they're not taken if there's other pieces.

MG: Well, you raise the issue of trust. What's at stake for the public? A public that is waiting for the sort of vaccine, but also, to your point, has some concerns when some governments talk about moving at warp speed, for example. So what's at stake when it comes to trust?

GARY KOBINGER: The entire trust about vaccine is so important. Vaccine has saved more lives than any medical intervention. People that don't know you can have the best vaccine on the planet, if there's a 20 percent uptake, meaning that 20 percent of the population accept to take it, it doesn't do much of anything. You need people to trust the vaccine, which means that especially in the current day that we are, it means that if they need the information, you need to give them the information. How did you get to this vaccine? What are the data on safety? What are the data on this? Because they can understand. Everybody can understand if it's communicated the right way. So, again, I think transparency, it's not about COVID only, it's about all vaccination. So if you do anything that may undermine confidence in vaccine, you may pay a high price in public health, not only for COVID, but later on for other vaccines.

MG: Canada has signed deals to buy doses of six different vaccines. Are there other promising candidates that are out there that you would like to see Canada buying and that the government has not done deals with yet?

GARY KOBINGER: Yeah. I mean, there's always more and more, you know, there's 170 plus vaccine or vaccine regimen that are being developed. Nine of which are in phase three, which is the last clinical phase before licensure, so released to the public. There's always more. I think you cannot do all at once. The ones that some of the ones that were selected personally, I think are very good. Some I would have put more the other behind the line. But this is my personal opinion, which is not important to me or what's important in this. So to have different experts in the room that will say that will argue, if you want, for or against, one technology or another one. And come come up with at least a majority is not a consensus on what is best for Canadian. And if something only about it is mainly about safety and efficacy. But it's also about, you know, is the vaccine available? Where is it manufactured? Can it be manufactured in Canada? Or are we going to be depending on on a country saying yes or no? Because, I mean, it's been within their border. All these are our argument, that plane. And it's on about what I think, honestly, it's it's really about again, back to the importance of this task force and the recommendation that are being made.

MG: I guess, to your point though, I mean, there are competing priorities and one of them is about getting the vaccine. Canadians want the vaccine. We want it yesterday. The other part of it is about making sure that that we aren't reliant on international suppliers and that there's capacity to build, you know, and and produce that vaccine here in Canada. How do you balance those two priorities being fast, but also looking out for our domestic best interests?

GARY KOBINGER: Yeah. Through priority investment. I answered this. So it's very important to access vaccine, but it's also very important to be able to manufacture them in Canada. So we don't have the same issues as with PPE, for example, where countries were closing the borders are not wanting to share much, although within Canada was not that. You have seen provinces sharing with other provinces and why I think is great that if there is a manufacturing capacity anywhere in Canada, it will be able to help all Canadians.

MG: Knowing what you know, I think it's important to ask you as well. The question that I think is on the minds of many Canadians, which is when will we have access to a safe and effective COVID-19 vaccine in this country?

GARY KOBINGER: Well, you know, trying to compress 20 years of of the government into a year or two is very challenging. I've said my my hope for the spring of 2021. I know it's far. And we may well see vaccine before that, considering that it's moving so fast. And I sure hope so. But I think it's only reasonable right now to think that there will be a vaccine and not just available for a few people, but I'm talking about available for the general population by the spring of 2021.

MG: Spring of 2021. We will keep that in mind. In the meantime, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

GARY KOBINGER: Thank you. Have a great day.

MG: And you. Gary Kobinger, director of the Infectious Disease Research Centre at Université Laval in Quebec City. He has resigned from the government's COVID-19 vaccine task force.

[Music]

Inside the NHL bubble

Guests: Emily Kaplan

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

[sc].

[Commentary from the Dallas Stars and Tampa Bay Lightning hockey game]

MG: The bubble is about to burst on the longest NHL hockey season. It'll end tonight or Wednesday with the awarding of the Stanley Cup. In normal times, remember those normal times? A new NHL season would just be starting. What would that actually look like? We'll get to that in a moment. First, let's deal with what the league has just accomplished. It's a lot. Emily Kaplan is the national NHL reporter for ESPN. Emily, good morning.

EMILY KAPLAN: Good morning. How's it going?

MG: Well, there were great predictions at the beginning of this bubble season that this was going to be a disaster in the making, that the playoffs would fall apart. None of this is going to work. There will be positive COVID-19 cases and there will be no Stanley Cup handed out. Those were all proven wrong. Are you surprised?

EMILY KAPLAN: You know, I am to an extent. I do think that the NHL made a series of great decisions throughout all of this. One of the things Gary Bettman and his top deputy commissioner, Bill Daly, did was wait until the last moment to decide planning logistics for this tournament. And that allowed them to pivot from the United States, specifically Los Vegas, where they wanted to go. And there's a high incidence rate to two Canadian cities. But they really did a great job in consulting with infectious disease experts and local government officials to make sure this was a safe environment for players.

MG: And by being a safe environment, I mean, essentially this was we talk about it being a bubble. It was a very tight bubble. Describe for people who haven't been paying attention what kind of environment the players were living in. What you would see from the outside?

EMILY KAPLAN: Yeah. So there was two bubbles that were going on initially. One was in Toronto, the other was in Edmonton. And they pretty much lived and existed in the middle of the cities around the ice rink. And what the NHL did was establish fencing and security around areas in each of the cities that included not only the ice arenas that they were playing in, but hotels, one or two restaurants and that's about it. In Toronto's bubble, you know, the Major League Soccer field was included. And that was some area for players to walk around. But here in Edmonton, where now the tournament is consolidated, the hotels are connected to the arena. And there's a lot of days where players don't even have to go outside and yet don't see the sun or breathe fresh air.

MG: You spoke with a number of players about what life in the bubble was like. How did they describe their experiences?

EMILY KAPLAN: You know, I think unequivocally, players say they felt safe. They felt like the safety measures in place were good. There's no place that they felt, you know, more comfortable in this global pandemic than in the bubble. That said, when it came to fun and amenities, they felt like the NHL over promised a bit on what the experience would be like. There's several gripes from the players that were not as advertised, whether it was excursions they could go on. But the biggest gripe that players have was that they felt misled about their families being able to join them. And largely that wasn't able to be true.

MG: One of them described life in the bubble as a bit like being in a prison?

EMILY KAPLAN: Yeah, there's an area in the Edmonton bubble that players began referring to the prison yard, and I mentioned that the hotel and arena are connected so players and they go outside. But there is a courtyard outside. However, it's a cement courtyard and it features several picnic tables that are socially distanced that black fencing around it, some spotlights. And there is the Timmy Horton's truck, a food truck that players can go to, but if you look at the photos of this area, and I have and this is mostly the common areas where players hang out, it really does look like a prison yard.

MG: You mentioned photos and we know a little bit of what these players are doing because as tends to happen on social media. There were pictures that were shared of some of the players who were partying. Was that an anomaly or was life in the bubble one big party?

EMILY KAPLAN: You know, it really wasn't you know, there was definitely some alcohol to be had there as far as included in the bubble. These are professional athletes. They're adults. Sometimes that's the way they choose to unwind. They've also been apart for five months. And it kind of felt like a reunion. Like I said, they were isolated from the fair families. All they had was each other. But in when it came down to it, this is a tournament. They were all looking to win the Stanley Cup. And player players told me that while there was alcohol present, there was a weed company's presence that was a go to for a lot of guys to be able to fall asleep. They really you know, we're doing that kind of stuff, a recovery, especially the wheat gummies. You know, guys would take it after a game to make sure that they could fall asleep at one a.m. and get eight hours of sleep instead of maybe staying up till 4:00 or 5:00 a.m. and dealing with insomnia and other factors like that.

MG: There was a lovely moment in this hadn't, was out of the bubble, that people perhaps saw on social media last week. Jon Merrill, defenceman of the Vegas Golden Knights, the team got knocked out of the playoffs. He got to go home after almost two months away, stuck in the bubble. And he and his wife, Jess, surprised their young daughters when he got home.

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[Clip of Jon Merrill seeing his daughters]

MG: Did you win? No, I'm home. He's hiding. Behind the garage door is the garage door opens and they come running in. You talked about being disconnected from their families. How much did that weigh on the players?

EMILY KAPLAN: It weighed a lot. Players going into this tournament were told by the conference final round, their family members would be able to join them. But once they got to the tournament, they felt like that promise wasn't kept. And the NHL and NHLPA kept moving the goalposts. And ultimately, it came down to an issue with the Canadian government, which did not offer an exemption for its 14 day federal quarantine like it did for the players. But the players felt like the NHL and NHLPA, which organises tournament. Kind of misled them through the process, wasn't transparent through the process, and they and didn't fight for their families to be a part of this. And that was really frustrating for them because they mentioned there's so many factors that were uncertain and stressful and and isolating throughout all of this to be told that your families could join you at some point that had that taken away in the middle of it. That's really difficult.

MG: We just have a minute or so left. What happens now? I mean, can they do an entire season? Nobody knows whether fans will ever be allowed back into stadiums in, you know, in the next year or two. Can the league do an entire season in a bubble like this or bubbles like this?

EMILY KAPLAN: No, it can't. And there's a couple different factors why. One, it's expensive. Two, there's going to be pushback from players. Their experience wasn't exactly ideal and they're going to want certain things to be amended. I do believe the NHL is going to take the same approach that they took with a return to play and wait till the last minute possible to make a decision on next season because the world and reality around us is changing so fast. But as of now, Gary Bettman, the commissioner, has said a December start date, January is possible and we'll see just how late it slips.

MG: The players though, you don't think that they would go back into the bubble voluntarily?

EMILY KAPLAN: You know, it's funny. I asked a bunch of them that and they said, no, no, no. But if that's the only way that we can get the playoffs going and that's the only way I win a Stanley Cup, as crazy as it sounds, I would do it again.

MG: Victory can be enticing and alluring. Emily, thank you.

EMILY KAPLAN: It's my pleasure. Have a great day.

MG: And you, Emily Kaplan, the national NHL reporter at ESPN. She is in Edmonton where the Stanley Cup will be handed out either today or on Wednesday to a team that is hidden away in that bubble. Coming up, after a regional update, a Canadian who claimed to be active in ISIS is now facing RCMP charges for not being active. A terrorist hoax, coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

Terrorism hoax case unlikely to change Liberals' ISIS repatriation policy, says expert

Guests: Nazim Baksh, Leah West, Mubin Shaikh

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: They're answering the call of God. We basically crawled under broken parts of the border and just ran in.

MG: That's the voice of Canadian Shehroze Chaudhry. He's talking about crossing the border into Syria, where he claims to have joined ISIS.

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VOICE: We'd enforce on cigarettes and alcohol and drugs. We'd enforce on mixing of women and men. There was also beheadings too, but that was for higher crimes, for crimes against the religion itself, against people, against ISIS itself.

MG: To the CBC, Shehroze Chaudhry, who went by the name Abu Huzaifa al-Kanadi, claimed not to have been involved in violence. But he told a different story to a New York Times reporter and was the central character in the podcast Caliphate. Now he's accused of making it all up. Late last week, the RCMP said in a release that a long investigation has led to charges of hoax terrorist activity against Chaudhry. Nazim Baksh is a producer on the CBC television investigative program The Fifth Estate. Shehroze Chaudhry featured in a documentary that Nazim Baksh produced for the show last year. Joins us now. Nazim, good morning.

NAZIM BAKSH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How did you first come to speak with Shehroze Chaudhry.

NAZIM BAKSH: I first met him in September 2017, and after much negotiation, he agreed to speak to us, but only if you granted him anonymity and did not reveal his real name. He said he was afraid for his life and the safety of his family. At that time, you know, he was not charged with a crime. But we established that he was under surveillance by Canadian security agents. He was extremely nervous, sweating profusely during the entire interview. Getting him to open up was not easy. And the meeting was brokered. I have to say, by Mubin Shaikh, a former government informer in the Toronto 18 terror plot case, but by Chodas own admission, Wubin was helping him to steer away from a violent religious extremism.

MG: What did Chaudhry tell you about his involvement with ISIS?

NAZIM BAKSH: He said in 2013, he left Canada from Pakistan, the country of his birth. He said he went to travel. He wanted to travel a bit after high school and that a local mosque you attended in Pakistan in the city of Lahore, was involved in humanitarian work in Syria. He got involved and at some point he became convinced that it was his duty to fight for the cause of the oppressed. And he told us that in early 2014, he emptied his bank account of about nine thousand dollars, saving from four years of part-time work at the shawarma shop in Canada. He he booked a flight to Turkey using his passport, his Pakistani passport. And once in Turkey, he headed straight for the border with Syria. He was put into training camp for a month, which was mostly weapons training. And he he said he spent his own money. He he purchased his own uniform, tactical gear, an AK-47. And that he took he took pride, Matt, in telling us that about the Austrian made glock pistol he purchased four for three hundred U.S. dollars.

MG: You mentioned the shawarma shop and that's where you caught up with him last year. Let's have a listen to a little bit of that exchange.

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VOICE: I'm probably more dangerous than the guys that are coming back after all these years and have alone. I have PTSD and I have no friends. I have no social life or anything. And I'm on the edge and I won't break because I don't believe in violence anymore.

MG: He doesn't believe in violence anymore. How detailed was his account of his time in Syria when he spoke with you?

NAZIM BAKSH: Well, during the exchange, you didn't know that we were recording that conversation. And we wanted him to be candid. And he was you know, he was writing a book with Jesse Morton, a former. That was last year, by the way. An entire year ago, he was told he was writing a book about his experience in Syria. The RCMP had enrolled him in a radicalisation programme with a local mom. He was still he said he was still committed to the cause of jihad and that he would never give up on that. He he said he didn't realise he didn't believe in violence anymore, you know, and that a Canadian should Canadians shouldn't fear him. We knew he was under 24 hours surveillance. He knew that because every time he posted something pro jihad online, he would get a visit by a Houlton regional police detective working with the RCMP. But you know, what was interesting, Matt, is that, you know, he he believed that he had gotten off scot free. And he said that he used those exact words. And I asked him, why do you think the RCMP has never charged you? And, you know, I always look for something like that. I have to quote him here. He said, I think it's because they want a court case that can stick. They replayed a scenario over and over again. If we take him to court for these charges, they will be happy. Where will the evidence come from? He said, where will the proof come from? An ISIS fighter from overseas is different from a criminal in Canada. They have to find the evidence. And if it falls apart, it will make them look bad.

MG: So he told you that he had not been involved in violence. What he told Rukmini Callimachi from The New York Times was was very different. This is a clip from the New York Times podcast, Caliphate. And we should warn people that this clip is about murder.

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VOICE: This guy was a drug dealer. I had to stab him in the heart. That's his punishment. He was raised orange jumpsuit, slight beard, cut face like square. He was blindfolded. It was like a black leather, rubbery type blindfold. We tied his hands with this wire thing. Now I'm just trying to build up the courage to do it. After that, I stabbed him.

MG: Nazim Baksh, what did you think when you heard what he had told her?

NAZIM BAKSH: Well, then I was shocked. I was disgusted. Disturbed. You know, it all came as a surprise because what he had told us is was that he was a low level police enforcer for ISIS in the city of Manbij in Syria. And now he's admitting not only to being a foot soldier for ISIS, but to be a cold blooded ISIS executioner. And, you know, I mean, that that's a startling difference in the story. The story escalated. And I just just have to remind you and our listeners that, you know, he had done that interview with Rukmini a year before he did our interview in 2017. So I knew that at that time that what he was telling Rukmani predated our interview. So we went back to him at the shawarma shop and you played a clip earlier that what he said there and what and what his story and how the story changed. And he said that, you know you know, he lied to Rukmini when we confronted him and that he wasn't telling the truth to her, that he was exaggerating, but that he didn't kill anyone.

MG: Her podcast was a huge success. His comments had a huge impact here in Canada. There was there was political fallout not just for politicians, but for the RCMP. Right? Which took a lot of criticism.

NAZIM BAKSH: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the opposition in the House of Commons jumped on this story. They accused the liberals of being soft on terror, of not having a plan to deal with returning ISIS fighters and in some heated exchanges in parliament. You might remember, Pierre described Abu Huzaif as a blood blood thirsty terrorist who should be in jail. Candice Bergen referred to him as a despicable animal and the minister of public safety at the time, Ralph Goodale, would only say that the RCMP was investigating and that Canadians were in no danger from a terrorist attack.

MG: What have you heard from him since these charges of faking this hoax? What have you heard from him since?

NAZIM BAKSH: Well, I try to. I try to reach out to him on Friday. And he hasn't responded. You know, he's he's not in custody, he's out. And he hasn't responded to any outreach that I've made to him.

MG: Just before I let you go. Why do you think these charges were laid now?

NAZIM BAKSH: Well, I mean, you know, after years and years of investigation, you know, there's been no charge. He's not been put on a peace bond. You know, this is still a charge of some kind. No hoax. You know, that that carries some kind of penalty and punishment. And I I'm not clear as to why they come now. And we've not seen anything like this. You know, we've seen people charged with convictions for participating in a terrorist group, facilitating recruiting, providing material support to a terrorist organisation, even peace bonds, but nothing of this type. And so this will be interesting to see how this plays out, Matt.

MG: Nazim Baksh, good to speak with you. Thank you.

NAZIM BAKSH: Thank you. Nazim Baksh, producer at the Fifth Estate. We did contact the RCMP for comment. We didn't hear back. This case, as Naz was mentioning, raises a number of questions about how Canada is dealing with the repatriation of former ISIS members. Mubin Shaikh is a professor of public safety at Seneca College, former CSIS RCMP operative. Leah West is a former national security lawyer with the Department of Justice and a lecturer in international affairs at Norman Patterson School of International Affairs at Carleton University. Good morning to you both.

LEAH WEST: Good morning.

MUBIN SHAIKH: Hello.

MG: Mubin Shaikh, I want to start with you. You actually counselled this young man as part of deradicalization efforts that you were involved in. What was your impression of him?

MUBIN SHAIKH: MSYeah, well, I mean, you know, my function in this is not to be the journalist to verify the story, nor to the security practitioner. You know, that's following him around. My job was to make sure No. One, that he wasn't a security threat. And number two, whatever issues that he had, I could try at least to help him with those issues. I spoke or met with him at least once a week for about a year. And while I saw two things. One was physiological symptoms that he was claiming was PTSD — sweats, tremors, crying. On one occasion, he started breaking down and crying in front of me when he was recounting one story and other multiple other occasions his tremor. You know, he's shaking his leg, shaking, his body's sweating. And so I said, OK, well, he's claiming this and this is what he's showing. So, you know, that must be it. Now, in hindsight, I'm thinking that if this is, in fact, a complete hoax that maybe his physiological reactions were psychosomatic. And secondly, what I started to see were holes in his story. And and I and I said that he was being deceptive. And I mean, at the time anyway, I believed I mean, he is still an ISIS cheerleader. I mean, it's just that he's kind of allegedly created this complete fantasy, as in being a member of the Hezbollah by the ISIS religious beliefs and committing these murders.

MG: Leah West, the RCMP has charged him with a terrorist hoax. What is the legal definition of that crime? I think that's one of the things that takes people back here.

LEAH WEST: Yeah, so essentially, in order to actually convict him of this crime, the crown prosecutors have to prove a couple of things. First, that he conveyed false information and that he conveyed that false information intentionally to create fear, and fear of death, bodily harm or property damage, resulting from a terrorist activity. So there's a couple of different really interesting things here. They have to prove the negatives, or at least they have to prove that he was lying. They have to prove that he intentionally lied in order to create fear. And then they have to prove that what he actually said was created a reasonable apprehension that a terrorist activity could cause bodily harm to Canadians. All of this is going to be really interesting and I think exceptionally challenging for the crown to succeed in this case.

MG: Rukmini Callimachi, the New York Times journalist, had Shehroze Chaudhry feature prominently in her podcast about ISIS and she responded to this charge against him by asking why the RCMP won't go to Syria to investigate his activities. Do we know, Leah, whether the RCMP has gone to Syria or why the RCMP had not gone to Syria to investigate this?

LEAH WEST: That's actually a complicated question. My understanding is that Canadian security services has not gone to Syria and there's a really good legal reason for that. And it stems all the way back to Omar Khadr, actually. If Canadians were to go and interview, if Canadian security officials were going to go and interview Canadians currently detained in facilities right now that do not live up to international human rights standards, they would be participating in a and they participating in an operation or whatever you want to call it, that is against international human rights obligations, which would create implications for any evidence collected there and could create charter liability for security services upon these individuals return. And so essentially, by participating or taking advantage of the fact that Canadians are being detained in situations that don't comply with human rights standards that would trigger the application of the charter. And realistically, there's no way to interview these individuals without them being detained in conditions that really do not meet human rights standards without bringing them home.

MG: Mubin Sheikh, Rukmini Callimachi was also tweeting about Shehroze Chaudhry's social media, writing, saying, and these are her words, his social media alone in an American setting would likely be enough for material support of a terrorism charge. What do you make of that?

MUBIN SHAIKH: Yeah, well, I mean, again, I'm I'm definitely not a legal expert here, but just observing what we've seen in the US, the U.S. uses material support quite often. And many of the ISIS-arrested, Americans that have been arrested for being ISIS members are professing support for ISIS or trying to go and support ISIS have all been brought under material support charges. I'm thinking and others more knowledgeable than me have agreed that what he was doing, being online, claiming that he's ISIS supporting ISIS. He would come under some kind of legal censure. We obviously don't have that up here. And so I think that's the reason why we're not seeing that kind of result.

MG: I was going to say, Leah, would the RCMP be able to charge him based on his social media posts, saying that he supports ISIS.

LEAH WEST: So there used to be an offence prior to bill C-59, which came into force last year for advocating or promoting terrorist activity. That is that charge was never used. And there, it was constitutionally precarious because it is really vague and unclear. And that law was now changed to counselling a terrorism offence. And counselling really does mean trying to get other people or advocating specifically for other people to engage in terrorist activity. So, again, it doesn't fit neatly here with the recounting of a story about what someone did, or, you know, posting on social media in support of an organization. The old time, perhaps. But he ultimately was never charged with that because it's no longer available?

MG: Well, why do you think the RCMP has laid this charge now?

LEAH WEST: That's a really, really great question. The one interesting thing I think for listeners to know is that terrorism offences — so if we had a material support type offence or, you know, other terrororist offences that we do have on our books, they need to be vetted and approved by the attorney general of the province and the attorney general of Canada through the public prosecution service. So there is, you know, a lot of calculus, a lot of consideration about bringing terrorism charges. Bringing a charge of terrorist hoax doesn't require attorney general signoff, it doesn't require crown sign off. This is something the RCMP can do themselves. So it's very different in terms of the calculation and who's in the loop in terms of bringing this charge. Why the RCMP would bring this now, I guess the optimist outlook would be that they completed a very thorough investigation, determined that he did not engage in any terrorism offences, believe that denouncing what he has done and charging him with his crime will deter him and others from continuing to engage in this kind of activity. And that's why they're bringing the charge.

MG: The skeptical outlook suggests that's the RCMP, as Nazim was saying, you know, has faced fierce criticism when Rukmini's podcast came out, and that this is a way in some ways to save face.

LEAH WEST: I hope that that's not true. I mean, there's no direct evidence of that yet. And this will be part of why it'll be so interesting to see how the charges are actually presented in court and how the Crown tries to prove this case, because if I'm his defence counsel, the first thing I'm making them all do is lay their cards on the table about why they know and how they know it's a lie.

MG: Mubin Shaikh, what do we know about Canadians who are still overseas being held for supporting ISIS?

MUBIN SHAIKH: Well, I mean what do we know? I mean, they're there. They're in very bad condition. Certainly when you go to Iraq and Syria to join a terrorist group to support their cause and it's in the middle of a war zone, you can imagine what kind of conditions that they are now being held in. Not just the men. We have a handful of men. I mean, it's arguable, there's like three slash five men, 20 some odd children and, you know, over 30 children, 20 some odd women. And then and then children. They're all living in very bad conditions. Certainly it's not a Canadian prison, that's for sure. But like I said, that's what happens when you go to Iraq and Syria to join ISIS.

MG: How do you think a case like this changes public opinion and maybe help shape official policy when it comes to repatriating those Canadians? Mubin?

MUBIN SHAIKH: Yeah, well, I mean, look, people have seen for themselves what ISIS has produced. You know, we I and I get the whole you know, I mean, they're Canadian and then they have rights like we we all have. And that is absolutely true. But unfortunately, the public sees what ISIS has done in the world. I mean, let us not forget the victims, the Yazidis who were raped and genocided and others. People have seen what and they don't want these people back. And the popular narrative is that they're all bloodthirsty killers, which is not true, which is is just not true.

MG: What do you mean?

MUBIN SHAIKH: Yes. Well, I mean, we do have I mean, let's not get distracted by Abu Huzaifa's so-called exploits. We have two Canadians there. I mean, Leah, Professor West has interviewed them or was there two of them who we believe, I mean, I believe committed murders. I mean, they are real killers. So we have actual candidates like that. But, as well, we have those that I do believe have changed or are willing to change or whatever. But within that, you also have, as the Abu Huzaifa saga tells us, those that will just lie like a rug. And so are Canadians willing to take the risk with a minority government? Certainly the Liberal Party is not going to risk political power for ISIS detainees. That's just not going to happen. So that's unfortunately the situation that they face. And we could potentially face if and when they're brought back.

MG: Leah West, how do you think this story changes not just official policy, but public opinion when it comes to repatriating those Canadians that Mubin has been talking about?

LEAH WEST: Unfortunately, I don't actually think it will have an impact. I've been tracking policy on this issue for a very long time and doing my best to influence it when it comes to repatriating at least the children. And I honestly don't believe that this will have an impact. I think, if anything, this will, you know. Well, the public safety minister himself said on Friday that he felt rather vindicated by this. So I think it'll just kind of further and it'll further entrench the policy that the Liberal government has of ignoring the problem, putting the problem on the victims, of the Canadian citizens, being the Kurdish people that are now responsible for maintaining these camps and feeding our Canadian citizens, and having Canadian children to continue to grow up in despicable conditions, innocent children, including a five-year-old orphan. So unfortunately, this is one of those areas where the Liberal government seems to not have a real political impetus to change its position, and it would have to do so because it's the right thing to do. And I'm very skeptical that's going to happen.

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have, what will you be watching for as this unfolds? It's a baffling story to a lot of people and you both have helped to untangle it in great measure, but as this continues to unfold, what are you going to be watching for?

LEAH WEST: Well, I'm very, very interested in the evidence that's going to be put forward. And again, that will really depend on the strength of the defence counsel, and whether or not the prosecutors even deem that it's a case that they do want to bring forward. It has to be in the public interest to do so. If they do that, I'm really interested to see the lengths that the RCMP went to actually chase down this story and and to see how that reflects upon the journalistic reporting of this story over the last couple of years.

MG: Mubin, what are you going to be watching for just briefly?

MUBIN SHAIKH: Yeah, very quickly. I mean, I'm a little bit aware of some of the information that the RCMP might have in terms of what's Shehroze was saying, knowing that it was false, knowing that it was going to create a threat. And two, personally, if I can just call it, I don't think he and his defence, I don't think they're going to go through a trial. I think he's going to plead guilty, admit the hoax, and that would be it.

MG: Let's wait and see. It's been great to speak with you both about this, and thanks for helping explain this complicated story to us. I appreciate it.

LEAH WEST: Thanks for having us Matt.

MUBIN SHAIKH: Most welcome. Thank you, everybody.

MG: Mubin Shaikh, professor of public safety at Seneca College, former CSIS RCMP operative. Leah West is a former national security lawyer with the Department of Justice and a lecturer of international affairs at the Norman Patterson School of International Affairs at Carleton University. That is The Current for this Monday. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One. Q is up next. Tom Power speaking with Diana Krall, brand new record out called This Dream of You and you'll hear all about it coming up in a few moments time. Before we go, a bit of music related to a story that we started out this morning talking about. We were speaking about the devastating loss experienced by the Lebanese people after this summer's enormous explosion. The Lebanese British singer Mika held a virtual concert this month. It was called I Love Beirut. A special tribute to the people of Beirut. Here's Mika and the indie band Mashrou Leila performing a song called, "Promise Land." I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Promise Land" by Mashrou Leila]

Sept. 28, 2020 episode transcript

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