Registering to vote like trying to 'count the bubbles in the soap' in some U.S. states: activist

Guests: Pastor Greg Lewis, Molly McGrath

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It is such good news today that the United States literally chose to lift its tariffs on Canadian alluminum.

MATT GALLOWAY: A win for Canada when it comes to a resumption of free trade. But not everyone is cheering in a new book. The Canadian economist Jeff Rubin argues that globalisation and a world where goods move seamlessly across borders has not been good for the middle class. Jeff Rubin makes the case for the people he calls The Expendables, in 30 minutes. Also this morning, the Toronto Raptors may be out of the NBA playoffs, but basketball fans here still have plenty to cheer about in an hour. The story of Jamal Murray, rising Canadian hoops star who's turning heads and leading his team, the Denver Nuggets, to success. And then he picked up a new instrument during the pandemic. Need some tips?

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The song I ever wrote for Queen, the first song I wrote for Free to Sing, long, long time ago and it's a funny, little tricky little riff, which I'll show you if you like.

MG: In the midst of a locked down guitar revival, Queen's Brian May has been teaching lessons online. So, it turns out, have members of the Canadian band Arkells. We'll hear why. But we start on the road, virtually making our way through the United States in an election year like no other. To learn this morning about the fight against voter suppression. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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TRUMP: Together, we will make America great again.

CROWDS: [Chanting] Go go go.

VOICE 1: If you're going to vote by mail, vote early.

VOICE 2: But you don't hear them talking about today. I say hundreds of thousands of lives.

VOICE 3: The only thing you could tear America apart is America itself. And we not let that happen.

MG: The U.S. election campaign is in full swing in under two months. Americans will head to the polls here at The Current with gassed up the RV, marked up the impossible to refold road map. And we are hitting the open road, sort of. Last week we started in Minneapolis, Minnesota, en route to New Orleans, Louisiana, following the mighty Mississippi River. And along the way, we're speaking with Americans about what this election means to them in a series that we're calling Road to November. And, you know, like any good road trip, you've got to have some tunes.

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[Music]

MG: From Rock the Vote 92, an eight track. We happen to have in the back of the RV. That's. And Vote Baby Vote. Couldn't be a more perfect soundtrack as we pull into Milwaukee, Wisconsin. This is what's known as a swing state, meaning that it holds a lot of power at the polls. And one of the key states to deliver Donald Trump the White House in 2016. But Wisconsin is also known for a darker side of elections.

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[Protestors chanting]

NEWSCASTER: They came to city hall to sound off, calling out what they see as voter suppression, blasting the decision of a judge in Ozaki County on Friday to purge from the voter rolls the names of up to 234,000 people over the years.

Thousands of people haven't taken off voter registries. And the rules for what you need to be able to vote have been changed many times over. And people who want to take part in the democratic process can be excluded. Lawmakers say this is being done to weed out voter fraud. Others call it voter suppression. We'll get to more of that in a moment. But first, as we pull into Milwaukee, let's swing by Wilson Park, where a voter registration event is happening.

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VOICE 1: Good morning. How are you?

VOICE 2: Good morning.

VOICE 1: I'm Anita. Nice to meet you.

VOICE 2: Nice to meet you.

VOICE 1: Are you a registered voter?

VOICE 2: I am.

VOICE 1: My name is Anita Johnson and I am the Voter I.D. Coalition coordinator for vote writers. OK. So I just want to make sure that everybody that's working here today... Are you a registered voter?

VOICE 3: Yes, I am.

VOICE 1: You are.

VOICE 3: But I'm not sure if I have to reregister.

VOICE 1: When was the last time you registered to vote? You know, when I first started this work, it was a job. And then I became very passionate about it because I found out voting is not a priority in everybody's life. And people really needed to know their rights. There was a veteran who was homeless and he needed a photo I.D., a state I.D, so he could register to vote and they wouldn't give him the state I.D. because of a birth certificate. I worked with him for over six months. And finally we found out that the midwife had spelled his name wrong on the birth certificate. So when he first applied for a Social Security card, he used that name. And because it was on his Social Security card, we were able to get him a state I.D. So with that, I wanted to make sure that this was a complete egg. So I wanted to make sure that he was able to vote. So I went and got him the day of the election. By that time, he had a place to stay and we went to the polling site in his neighbourhood. When we got there, he had changed address since he had registered to vote. So they were telling him, you can't vote because the address is wrong. You have to have proof of residence. And I was like, we've got to go back to your house. We've got to get a bill or lease to prove that you are a registered voter. So we went back to his house, got the information, came back, and he was able to vote that day. I want to make sure I want to make sure that people know what they need to do when they go to the polls to vote, because we're in a society where the laws change on a daily basis. I like to empower people with information. So when I can do that, it makes me feel good. Anybody in your family needs to register to vote.

MG: Anita Johnson is the Voter I.D. Coalition coordinator for Vote Writers. It's a group helping people in Wisconsin register to vote. Anita also works for a group called Souls to the Polls. It's a non-profit, faith based organisation for educating, registering and transporting people to the polls. Joining me now is Pastor Greg Lewis. He's the assistant pastor at St. Gabriel's Church of God in Christ in Milwaukee and the founder and executive director of Souls to the Polls, Pastor Greg Lewis. Good morning.

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Good morning.

MG: Well, what are some of the obstacles that that people in your community would be facing when they just want to go and exercise the Democratic right and vote?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Well, the requirements to vote now have really changed. And they range from requiring proof of citizenship to requiring that many, many forms, sometimes 15 forms in some places to be filled out in order to register to vote. I mean, you know, I'd be out to be able to go to McDonald's and get a Big Mac and, you know, give me a ballot over there, fill that ballot out just in a box and somebody pick it up later on. But instead, it's a process that is is not welcoming. And then we have this voter I.D. Some folks don't even have a birth certificate. You got to have birth certificates, Social Security card and all those things. Some of our older folks in my community, then they were born in a hospital. So where do they get the birth certificate to get an I.D. when they don't have one? So so there's a lot of issues.

MG: What do you make of the argument that the government makes that those steps are necessary to ensure that there isn't voter fraud?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Well, you can make up anything. You know, we call it cognitive dissonance, making up facts to tailor your argument.

MG: This election is happening in the midst of a pandemic. How is that going to influence the work that you're doing? And what kind of obstacles do you think that's going to put in front of you?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: We believe that people have to mail in votes early because we don't know what the pandemic is going to be like in November, especially on November 3rd. That's a frightening situation there. And that's disheartening for folks who understand what this virus is all about. Like me.

MG: You had COVID?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Yes, I almost died. I was on my deathbed. If I had not gotten to the hospital what I did, I would not be on this telephone call right now. So I understand the damage that culvert 19 can do to a person. And they asked people to go out to vote instead of making it easy for someone to just get an absentee ballot and mail it in for your vote. And in our situation, my community, it really doesn't trust the system in the first place.

MG: Who do you mean? What do you mean it doesn't trust the system.

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Well, we live in a system and I live in a neighbourhood that is predominantly people of colour. And these people just don't believe that the system does anything to really affect their lives in a positive way. Everything that happens in this community, we have to bite and scratch and try to make things happen under conditions that are opposing our efforts. And the hopelessness is apparent.

MG: When you talk to people in your community - I mean, with this election looming. Are they given the fact that they think the system is rigged against them? Are they excited about, you know, going in and trying to change that system through voting?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Well, that's what we're trying to energise, being excited about going in and changing the system. And that's why we have developed our souls to the polls, because we have to help to energise this situation by letting them know about this suppression, by letting them know that their vote counts. By letting them know that they have power. This is probably the most important election of my lifetime because folks not they're not excited about these candidates at all.

MG: People call Wisconsin a swing state and so mean the parties will need your vote and they're going to come and they're going to be knocking on doors and they're going to be doing everything they can to try to get that vote out. If you look around your community, how is the campaigning by the two parties different maybe from the past elections?

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: The parties are not in our community. They always take the black community for granted because they just believe they're going to vote Democratic. But these folks need to be inspired to vote Democratic. But right now, I'm going and I'm looking for signs in my community and I don't see any signs for Biden, but I do see signs for Trump. What I'm telling you is the Democrats need to stop taking the black vote for granted and start putting resources in our community and put an effort to let these people know there is a vote. We have people walking down our streets who don't even know they're going to be voting on November 3rd.

MG: You're in the midst of a pandemic, a pandemic that, as you say, almost killed you. There is this reckoning around police, around antiblack racism, around justice. There's a lot of anger in your country and in your community right now. Just finally, where's the hope that you see in this?

p: Well, there's always hope. I mean, I'm a man of faith, and I just believe that that God is in control, but God's not going to do anything if you don't do anything. And we have to do something about our own situation. We have to stop letting things happen to us. We have to start making things happen for us. So that's why has to continue until we die. We've marched and we protest. And now we have to look at system change and policy change, why that door is open before it closes again. The determination of our community needs to be from us.

MG: Greg Lewis, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Good luck in the work that you're doing. And thank you.

PASTOR GREG LEWIS: Thank you.

MG: Pastor Greg Lewis is the founder and executive director of Souls to the Polls. It's a voter rights organisation in Milwaukee. Rolling down the highway now to Wisconsin's capital, Madison. I'm joined by Molly McGrath. She's known as the I.D. lady. She's with the ACLU's national political advocacy department. Molly, good morning to you.

MOLLY MCGRATH: Hi, Matt. Thanks so much. Thanks for having the Ibai. Thanks, Van to a morning person.

MG: I'm glad that we were able to do that. The I.D. lady is quite a handle. And you got that in part because of the work that you do travelling across your state to help people get registered to vote. These are different times. How is that different in in in the pandemic that we're living in right now?

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah, it really I mean, everything is different right now, and voting is certainly no exception, both in the way that no, we're reaching voters. And in the way that people are going to be voting. So, you know, any good organising is always about meeting people where they're at. So what we heard from Anita and Pastor Lewis and, you know, they're they're experts at that in making sure that they're, you know, meeting voters where they're at with the information that they need. And so now with this last in-person outreach, you know, some some still exists as we saw this Pastor Lewis and Anita. A lot of this to change is to, you know, more digital or the importance of phone banks. You know, as a replacement for for knocking on doors. But you know that the truth is a lot of events like community meals and canvasses just aren't happening at the same rate that they, you know, happened other election or, you know, even seven months ago.

MG: Just briefly, I mean, I think for a lot of people in Canada, we find that the obstacles in front of people to vote in the United States, a bit of a head scratcher. I can go into my local school. It takes me 30 seconds. I vote and I'm on my way home. What are some of the barriers that you have heard people come across that are unique to this situation, to voting in a pandemic?

MOLLY MCGRATH: That's you know, I have some friends who are Canadian, they're just like, this is so messed up in this country. And, you know, we really have to think about the racist history here of voter suppression. You know, that it was, you know, the Voting Rights Act in 1965 that, you know, part of it so important to protect communities of colour, to protect black communities and jurisdictions where they have this history of racial discrimination. You know, they would have to ask the Department of Justice to make a new law that we need to make sure that this was not going to continue to discriminate against voters of colour. And the Supreme Court gutted that. So this you know, this is just still so alive here. And so, you know, we have you know, it's almost like twofold. So we have, like voter suppression as it exists in this country. You know, that is targeted and that is nefarious. And then we have, you know, voting in a pandemic and the learning curve that exists there. And, you know, it really shed light on some laws across the country that were very antiquated. You know, at the beginning of this pandemic, 17 states, 16 states required an excuse in order to vote absentee. And I mean, these excuses like in Texas, that something like you have to be over 65 out of the county on Election Day. I mean, it's, you know, those were the only voters who would be eligible to vote by mail to vote absentee. And so that seems, you know, outdated on a good day. And in a pandemic, it just seems flat wrong and maybe even dangerous. But luckily, we've seen 10 states move and allow all voters to vote by mail to vote excuse, you know, either through litigation or an executive order or some legislative movement. So, you know, that's still even just one, you know, one situation that we're seeing. But the interesting thing is that in this country, we're going to see more voters than ever before. We'll be able to vote by mail this election. About 83 percent of all voters can vote by mail, by absentee.

MG: Which alarmed some people. And people say that, you know, the rules that are in place and the procedures that are in place, that it's not about voter suppression. It's about ensuring that that voter fraud doesn't unfold in an election that means so much. Have a listen to Nick Riedinger, who's the chair chairman of the Wisconsin Young Republicans, chief of staff to Wisconsin state senator.

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A number of people have gotten ballots mailed to them when they never requested them. And how did this happen, including the vice chair of the Wisconsin Republicans. She received several absentee ballots to her house. And it's like, wait, why is this? First of all, why am I getting multiple ballots? And then I also never request these in the first place. There is always the potential for clerical error, things like that. But on the scale that often happens, that just provides a lot of concern for folks.

MG: Molly McGrath, The President has been tweeting about this this morning, saying, because of the new and unprecedented massive amount of unsolicited ballots which will be sent to voters or wherever this year, the election results may never accurately be determined. Do you worry about the possibility of voter fraud?

MATT GALLOWAY: Look, we all want to know this is something that we all agree that our elections should be secure. They should be accessible to voters and that the right to vote is so sacred and, you know, and should be protected. And I think, you know, vote by mail is this is not new. You know, this is not new to America. We have been doing this since the Civil War. Military voters overseas have been voting by mail. It's secure. And, you know, some states, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Oregon, they primarily run their their elections by mail. You know, in our country, every election systems are very decentralised. So each state has has different laws, different deadlines, different registration rules and and also different rules for vote by mail. And, you know, even a different culture. So here in Wisconsin, we have, you know, traditionally had a strong culture of voting in person. But other states have have a strong culture vote by mail. And that's been secure and accessible for years. So, you know, we're not reinventing the wheel here on vote by mail. It's a tried and true system.

MG: We have just a couple of minutes left. You saw a bit of a test run or had a bit of a test run with the primary vote in April in Wisconsin. How did that go?

MOLLY MCGRATH: You know, I think that when we still see images of these lines of, you know, I think we've all seen particularly the pictures in Milwaukee, where a city where there were traditionally 180 polling locations and down to five in April.

MG: Five? Wow.

MOLLY MCGRATH: Five total. And knowing that, you know, 80 percent or so of the state's black population lives in Milwaukee. So this is historically disenfranchised community. And then also, you know, this is the height of the pandemic manoeuvrer also seeing that COVID rates were disproportionately hitting black people. You know, it was it was haunting and chilling and just I think, you know, really sounded the alarm and sounded the alarm in a big way. You know, the thing about April was this was right when the pandemic, you know, right when the pandemic was starting, you know, the stay at home orders were just getting in place. And the thing about November is now we know if we have time to prepare. So, you know, we're seeing our election administrators step up and make sure that they're getting adequate poll workers, you know, recruiting people, getting younger people so they can have accessible in-person locations. We're seeing, you know, increased staff and supplies for for vote by mail. And, you know, we're also seeing, our our election commission sent out mailings to registered voters that says how they can vote by mail. So we're seeing that men are also seeing voters make their plans earlier, getting there because we know now. Right. As voters, we know that we can request our ballot. We can make our plan to vote early, whatever that's going to be. The only thing we haven't seen step up in our Congress to fully fund what we really need for the election this fall. But bur I'm certainly not optimistic, given the makeup of the Senate.

MG: You have a lot of work ahead of you. Molly, it's great to speak with you as we make our way through your part of the United States. Thank you.

MOLLY MCGRATH: Thank you so much, thank you for having me.

MG: During this issue, Molly McGrath with the ACLU National Political Advisory Department. She was in Madison, Wisconsin. Our road trip. On the road to November, continues next week, are heading to Iowa. You can follow our U.S. election road trip along the Mississippi by heading to our Web site, cbc.ca/thecurrent. The news is next. We're back in six minutes. We'll talk about a big issue in this election campaign, and that is trade. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

Economist Jeff Rubin

Guest: Jeff Rubin

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, if social distancing got you down, tried picking up the guitar, learning to strum some chords as the pandemic's latest trend. And I'm sure the bane of all future campfires. We'll get some tips from the Arkells, coming up. But first, his globalisation killing the middle class.

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We were up against a real battle right now. It's us versus them. And I've always said I love the American people. But right now, for the president to come in and attack us during these times through a pandemic when we need everyone's support, is totally unacceptable. And we may be small, but remember, we're a consumer giant, absolute giant in the world. So, folks, please, this weekend, when you're going into the grocery store until all the packaging gets changed, look on the back. See where it's manufactured. It is manufactured in Canada, buy it. And that's how we can support our neighbours, our family and our friends.

MG: That's Ontario Premier Doug Ford last month responding to U.S. President Donald Trump's imposition of a 10 percent tariff on Canadian aluminium. In response to those tariffs, the Trudeau government announced that it would put a 3.6 Billion dollar amount of tariffs on U.S. goods. And then on Monday this week, the United States said it was dropping its tariff on Canadian aluminium. And by Tuesday, Canada had responded, saying it would indeed drop its retaliatory tariffs. Disputes over trade and protectionism have been dogging the relationship between Canada and the United States for the last little while. The economist Jeff Rubin has looked at the social and political costs of trade in his new book, The Expendables: How the Middle Class Got Screwed by Globalisation. Jeff Rubin is the former chief economist and chief strategist at CIBC World Markets. He joins us now. Jeff Rubin, good morning.

JEFF RUBIN: Good morning.

MG: So after all that, if you take a look at this week's developments, is that a win, a victory for Canada and its trade relationship with the United States?

JEFF RUBIN: No, it's not a win. It's not even close to a win, because the fact of the matter is that whether Chrystia Freeland wants to recognise that or not, the U.S. has imposed quotas on what they will accept from Canada. And Canada is their largest supplier. Countries like Brazil, South Korea and Australia excepted those quotas and hence have been spared tariff action. We have not. But the fact of the matter is that if our exports aren't down to 83 tons in September or 73,000 tons in October and December, those quota, those tariffs come right back in place. But man, I know that that's the sort of the story of the week. But there's a bigger picture going on, a bigger picture when you connect the dots between what's happened to the middle class in Canada and indeed in other OECD countries and the type of trade agreement. That that people like Chrystia Freeland and Chrystia Freeland around the world can see, because those two are really related.

MG: You say the middle class. I'll use your language here. It has been screwed by globalisation. Who are the. Who are the expendables that you talk about in your book?

JEFF RUBIN: OK. Well, I mean, there is a different income category for each in each country, but roughly 25 to 80 thousand, median income around 40 thousand. But, you know, not to get hung up on numbers they're people who used to own a home. They're people who used to go on a family vacation once a year. And they are people who put away a little money every year for their kids education, and they're becoming rarer and rarer. For the first time in the post-war period, they are no longer the majority of households in countries like Canada, United States, Australia or the UK. You know, back in 1980, they accounted for 60 percent of household spending. Today, they account for 40 percent. That's the same percentage that the top five percent of households spend in the U.S. economy. Numbers for Canada wouldn't be materially different as they did.

MG: There's a couple of definitions that's just worth getting clear. I mean, we do we talk about the middle class and there are different definitions of the middle class. Politicians have one definition, perhaps, and they're always talking about helping the middle class. The OECD might have a different definition. What does it mean in 2020 to be middle class in this country?

JEFF RUBIN: Well, as I said earlier, there is the OECD puts out income definitions, income ranges for each of these countries. You know, Canada's median income of around 40 thousand, 20 thousand to 80 thousand. But if you want to know, like, who I'm talking about, I'm talking about a couple of thousand workers who used to work at the GM plant who no longer do. So I'm talking about something like 600,000 jobs lost in the manufacturing sector over the last 15 years. Those kind of folks, believe me, they know who they are.

MG: When you call them expendable, one of the reasons why you use that word in the book is when you talk about wages. It's not just about not having a job or having a job, it's about the fact that, to your point, wages have remained stagnant over that time. Who's not making more money and what's the cost to the general economy of that?

JEFF RUBIN: OK, well, who is not? 80 percent of Canadian households have not seen a significant real income gain in the last 20 years. And the reason for that is that real with that is inflation adjusted wages in Canada and the United States peaked in 1975. That's a long time ago without a wage increase. And there are reasons for that because we've seen one of the largest mass migration of manufacturing jobs in history. And what's happened is that once decent paying manufacturing jobs have been shipped to countries where wages are a tenth of what they're paid here- back in the heyday of the middle class in the 50s and 60s, middle class workers made very things they consumed; cars, televisions. Today, none of those goods are made in places like Canada and United States. They're made in places like Mexico and China, where wages are a tenth or less than what they're paid in North America.

MG: If wages are stagnant, Middle-Class wages are stagnant, why haven't unions, for example, which represents those middle class workers, represent many of those manufacturing workers? Why haven't they called strikes, for example, to get those wages increase?

JEFF RUBIN: That's a great question, because one of the anomalies is that for much of this period and in fact, until recently when COVID hit, we were basically at full employment. Standard macroeconomic theory, the Phillips curve will tell you that as we get the full employment wage increases accelerate because workers go on strike to achieve them. The only problem today is that fewer workers belong to a union. In the heyday of the middle class in the 1950s, one out of every three private sector workers in North America belonged to a union. Now it's one out of 20. And the unions that do exist are very reluctant. I mean, take, for example, Unifor in Canada.

MG: Largest private sector union in the country.

JEFF RUBIN: That's right. I mean, it shouldn't take an ex-Managing director and chief economist of an investment bank to tell those folks what to do. But I think most of them will agree if they're listening, that what their leadership has done certainly isn't working. Well, [Unintelligible] Diaz may have a job. Most of his membership don't. And they're not going to have a job until they connect the dots. We've seen closing plants in Oshawa and trade agreements like the U.S., Mexico, Canada, every.

MG: You talk about the auto sector being in many ways, you say no industry better illustrates how globalisation creates winners and losers than the auto sector. I mean, people might understand that because they see jobs disappear and they see plants closed down. But tell me a bit more about that.

JEFF RUBIN: Well, you know, I mean, back in the old days when there was a middle class, we had a thing called the auto pact, and it worked perfectly well for decades. And what it guaranteed was that American car companies, GM, Ford, Chrysler produced an equal number of cars that they sold in Canada, not exactly the same cars, but any number. And that agreement worked on both sides of the border for decades. Until all of a sudden Mexico entered the equation. And the big difference was that for all intents and purposes, there was wage parity, between Canada and in the United States. When you throw in a country where wages are one tenth of what they are in Canada, the United States. Guess what? Companies like Magna, companies like GM are going to move there. And I don't want to villainize these folks because they're only doing what their shareholders want them to do. Their shareholders are going to say, why are we paying 20 to 30 dollars an hour when we can pay two dollars an hour? But there's got to be some balance between the interests of Magna shareholders and the interests of the few remaining Magna workers in Canada. And that balance has totally been lost in that type of trade deals that people like Chrystia Freeland sign in the same time saying she's doing that to save the middle class when in fact those trade agreements got the middle class.

MG: Do you think that that sector, that auto sector is on his way out in this country?

JEFF RUBIN: Well, it is. Under the current regime, it is.

MG: Well, what would a different regime do to protect it, if those are the economies.

JEFF RUBIN: OK. In the old days, you could go to Mexico and you could go to China. And there were even greater wage incentives to do that then than there are now. But you wouldn't have a hope in hell as ever being able to ship anything made in those plants back to the countries where those jobs were coming from because they were either tariffs or quotas, like America has on aluminum, preventing you from doing that. So there was no overall economic incentive to do that. We've got to go back to those trade relations. And that's exactly what Donald Trump is doing. And I might point out that's exactly what Bernie Sanders would have done, had the elite in the Democratic Party not conspired to keep them off the ticket. Because if he were to win the election in 2016, we'd be having the same trade war with China. And he, too, would have far enough now said that, he said, was a terrible deal for U.S. workers.

MG: I want to talk about Donald Trump because you mentioned it. I mean, you in the book suggests that the U.S. president and Bernie Sanders do have, I think people would scratch their heads wondering how this is possible, but they do have some agreement on the issue of how workers have been treated by global trade on trade.

JEFF RUBIN: They're talking from exactly the same page, saying had he won, we'd be having these trade wars because he was sticking up for American workers. Now, you know, the irony is that Donald Trump, you know, a dude who probably never worked a day in a factory in his life, has championed the cause of American workers. It's like no president before him. Bernie Sanders, it's a little more understandable. But the point I'm trying to make is that the populist response to globalisation, trying to mobilise people who have been left behind can't back from either side of the plate just like one hundred years ago. There is as much opposition to globalism there by Left-Wing populist parties as there was by Right-Wing Populist Party. And it's unfortunate that both are lacking in the current Canadian political landscape.

MG: Let's talk about the United States and the relationship in particular that the U.S. has with China. Here is U.S. President Donald Trump speaking last month.

SOUNDCLIP

If you look at China with the World Trade Organisation as an example, they're getting tremendous because they're considered a developing nation, which is ridiculous. Why should they be a developing nation but we're not? And they get tremendous incentives. We have, by the way, told them it's unacceptable. And we've been doing that for a long time. They understand exactly how we feel and big changes are being made.

MG: Jeff Rubin, why does the World Trade Organisation classify China as an emerging economy?

JEFF RUBIN: Well, OK, let me answer it. What difference does it make? And I'll tell you the difference. If you want to export a car to the United States, they get to charge a two and a half percent. Most favoured nation tariffs because they're considered a developed country. If you want to export of cars to China, you have to pay a 25 percent tariff. Ten times the tariff rate that America is allowed to charge under WTO rules. That's why even though the WTO would say we have a rules based trading system like everybody at my former think tank CEG would agree. What people will recognise is there are different rules for different countries. And the WTO rules screw Canadian and American workers.

MG: So when Donald Trump, as he's has said for four years and will continue probably to say into this election campaign, says that China is ripping off the United States. Do you agree with him?

JEFF RUBIN: Yes. But guess what? Not everybody is ripped off. You know, shareholders of Apple, their life is just fine. They want all their cell phones and computers to be made by workers making a dollar fifty an hour. You know how many workers which you find in California making cell phones for a dollar fifty an hour. So shareholders benefit, Apple benefits, the one percent benefits. That's why there is such supporters of globalisation. But the other 80, 90 percent of the population, they're left behind. When people get left behind, they get pissed off.

MG: Am I misreading this one? When I take from the book a sense of respect. But in some ways, you said that you do respect what Donald Trump did when he ripped up the global trade playbill.

JEFF RUBIN: Absolutely. OK. And I guess the challenge for Canadians is what happens when people who you despise happen to speak the truth? You know, do you ignore the truth because you despise the messenger? Or do you ignore the messenger and recognise the truth? That's the challenge for most of the people listed on this show, who probably, if I had to guess, are not big fans.

MG: But is it true, though, what he's done to me? He said the jobs would come back. He talked about this Foxconn plant, the giant technology manufacturer involved in the making of those cell phones in China, that they're going to build some plant in the American Midwest. They'd be, what, 13000 jobs? None of those jobs really appear to- have the jobs actually come back? Is he actually telling the truth?

JEFF RUBIN: Yes manufacturing employment, if you look at employment industries like steel industry, it's growing for the first time in decades. Is that a giant coincidence or maybe there has some relationship to the terrorists that he's imposed. And I think I know and it just won't work in America. It works here, too. It's going to take more than moral suasion from Doug Ford telling people in Ontario to buy Canadian. If you slap a tariff on Chinese goods. Guess what? People will buy domestic. That's the way you boost employment.

MG: There was a piece in the Harvard Business Review not so long ago talking about de globalisation, saying that de globalisation, the idea of decoupling your economy from China and focussing on your own backyard, plays into China's hands that it isolates the United States economically, but also politically, and reduces the ability of companies to actually do business with China, which is an enormous economy. There's billions of people in there.

JEFF RUBIN: And for the one percent of the American population that the Harvard Business School represents, they're absolutely right. But if I'm an expendable, why do I care? Why do I care about GDP? Like every economist except me will tell you that GDP will be smaller with protection. And they're right. But GDP has done just fine. It's the expendables who are suffering. So maybe I just want a bigger piece of the pie. And if the pie shrinks as a result of cutting me a bigger piece, that's not my problem. That's the problem of the one percent who have been gorging themselves on the spoils of growth.

MG: What has globalisation and the rise of an expendable population again? And what does that meant? We've hinted at this with with Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, but elsewhere around the world, what's it meant for democracy do you think?

JEFF RUBIN: Well, you know, it's a challenge to democracy, I think. Something like only 30 percent of American millennials believe that democracy is important even less than countries like Austria. Because when people get left behind, they lose their belief in liberal democracy because liberal democracy is not performing for them. And we saw this play out 100 hundred years ago. This is isn't globalisation's first [unintelligible. And what happened is the demise of globalisation with the fact that so many people got left behind, that they started listening to different voices. And after World War One, that led us to some pretty dark places.

MG: What do you say to people who say that, that the talk around, you know, protecting your own and amplifying that economic anxiety is a dog whistle, that it's a way to cover up, you know, for racist support for politicians who exploit race? And people would point to what unfolded in the UK around Brexit. They might point to what's happening in the United States right now as well.

JEFF RUBIN: Yes, you know. I beg to differ. I think what divides us isn't so much race, it's class. Now, if we want to talk about Brexit or the UK, let's talk about that. Why did Boris Johnson win the biggest majority, conservative majority since Margaret Thatcher? Because a whole slew of ridings in northern England that used to always vote Labour because they were working class voted Conservative in the same way that American autoworkers voted for Donald Trump.

MG: And part of that is not about saying these other people are coming and taking your jobs. I can get your jobs back by making sure those other people aren't here.

JEFF RUBIN: It's absolutely about the Polish plumber and all the posted workers in the EU coming to the UK who are exempt from minimum wage requirements. Who do you think supports those policies? Is it a surprise that employers unions support those policies? Is it a surprise that the Business Council on National Issues want a double migration? I mean, Andrew Carnegie, one of the robber barons in the 19th century, referred to immigrants as a stream of gold. You think that he was being motivated by his concern to help the less fortunate in the rest of the world? Or did he perhaps have less altruistic motivations for holding that view?

MG: You hinted this in the book, do you think that the new tech sector, whether it's what's happening in Silicon Valley, Facebook, Amazon, Google, Apple, are they the robber barons of the 21st century?

JEFF RUBIN: Absolutely, and they're dwelleth for anything of the robber barons, including Rockefeller. And when you look at their market concentration like Google, it's just as much, if not greater than Standard Oil that led to the Sherman Act, which eventually broke up the Rockefeller empire deep.

MG: Did you break them?

JEFF RUBIN: They wear a T-shirt and jeans as opposed to thought at some three piece suit.

MG: Do you break them up then?

JEFF RUBIN: That's right. Or even more importantly, you don't allow them to have the monopoly power that they have, because when firms have that kind of monopolistic power and you invite abuses, you invite people getting screwed.

MG: Just in the last few minutes that we have, were in the midst of a global pandemic which has cratered the economy. People have seen the jobs that they thought were secure, vanished in some cases overnight. What is that meant in terms of the expendables? Has that base of the expendables gotten larger because of that?

JEFF RUBIN: I think it's very bullish for the expendables. Every pandemic going back to the bubonic plague, to the Spanish flu raised wages in their wake. I mean, they did so just because of the physical decimation of the labour force. There were less peasants to work in the field, less workers to work in the factories. Hence, the price of labour rose. Well, fortunately, we're not going to see the same physical decimation. But by casting globalisation an entirely different light. I think that it's a game changer. I think what we're going to see is, you know, that if even needed an N 95 respirator mask or a ventilator. The only countries that could assure their population that they had those things is producing themselves. And I think that this is going to be a turning point for globalisation. I think we're going to see a lot of jobs come back, not just because of Donald Trump, but because consumers and shareholders will want that in the post pandemic era. And lo and behold, the expendables just might get there for if global supply chains are severed. The expendables might just get their first real wage increase since 1970.

MG: Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives says that Canada's top billionaires are 37 billion dollars richer since the start of the pandemic.

JEFF RUBIN: Right. And they're free to pass on all their money to their heirs tax free. And because we're the only country that doesn't have an inheritance tax.

MG: But I guess given that, how how can you say that there's the possibility that this is going to be some sort of silver lining, for the population that you say get [unintlliglbe]?

JEFF RUBIN: I don't think that customers and consumers believe in global supply chains anymore. I think that there's a new urgency for economic self-sufficiency. I think the call for economic self-sufficiency, which up until this point has been the preserve of either the populist right where the populist left is about to go mainstream. And that's a game changer.

MG: So in the last minute that we have, if someone's listening and they feel, yeah, that's me, I'm part of that expendable population, what are they supposed to do now?

JEFF RUBIN: Well, I'll tell you what's lacking. You know, I'd like to see a Bernie Sanders guy lead the NDP. And I'd like to see a Donald Trump guy lead the Conservatives and give Canadian voters some real choices instead of the same old thing in different partisan guys.

MG: Jeff Rubin, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

JEFF RUBIN: Great talking to you. Have a great more in hand.

MG: Jeff Rubin, economist. His new book is called The Expendables How the Middle Class Got Screwed by Globalisation. Your thoughts. Welcome. Jeff had a lot of opinions. Perhaps you have some. You can reach us through the Web site. Go tocbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. or tweet us @The CurrentCBC. Your regional update is next.

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Murray puts up a three. And Jamal Murray from downtown.

MG: Canada's own Jamal Murray may play for the Denver Nuggets. But with the Toronto Raptors out of the NBA playoffs, he's keeping Canada's championship dreams alive. You'll hear his story coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

Jamal Murray, the rising Canadian basketball star, is 'the real deal,' says man who scouted him; and the pandemic is inspiring people to pick up the guitar

Guests: Rowan Barrett, Chris Ash, Max Kerman

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Murray, another floater and another bucket for Jamal Murray.

MG: Jamal Murray, a name on the lips of commentators quite a bit earlier this week when the Denver Nuggets took on the mighty L.A. Clippers.

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Murray again drills another. He is red hot here in the second quarter. You're wondering, can he keep going at this pace as he answers with a three.

MG: Well, yes, it turns out he could keep going, finishing the game with 40 points. And now his team, the Denver Nuggets, are heading to the Western Conference final. And the Canadian player, Jamal Murray, is getting a lot of credit from his coach, Mike Malone.

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We showed the heart of a champion, the heart of a fighter. And Jamal had a lot to do with that. We came out in the third quarter engaged, defending and playing the right way. And Jamal Mohammed signs that we've seen it. Our season's on the line. Need somebody to make a big play. And Jamal Murray steps up.

MG: Who is this young man? Rowan Barrett has watched Jamal Murray play and develop for years. Rowan Barrett is the general manager and executive vice president of the Senior Men's Programme for Canada Basketball. Ryan, good morning.

ROWAN BARRETT: Good morning.

MG: What were you thinking watching that win the other night? I mean, a lot of people were thinking that the L.A. Clippers would be in the finals and Jamal Murray had something else to say about that.

ROWAN BARRETT: Yes, I was thinking that if it came down to the end of the game, if it was a close game, that Denver would win. One, just because they, you know, they know how to, they play together. They're moving the ball. And, you know, Jamal Murray is a closer. There's not a ton of those guys in the NBA. But he is one of them. And he's been that for Denver for a number of years now.

MG: What does that mean? He's a closer.

ROWAN BARRETT: It means in the high leverage moments, in the most pressure-packed moments, some players that can step up and make plays to win games. And Jamal has kind of always been that person in his life. And now it's just kind of showing on the biggest stage. But if you if you just look back at the games, look back at the numbers, look back at him in the last couple of years in Denver, this is who he's been.

MG: Should Toronto Raptor fans take extra pleasure in the fact that Jamal helped beat former Raptors star Kawhi Leonard, who left the Raptors for fame and glory on the West Coast?

ROWAN BARRETT: Yes, you know what, I'm just happy this is a good old Canadian boy that is playing, you know, at the top level in the most difficult moments in the NBA playoffs here. I think it's something we just have not seen before at this level, for a player at this age. He's carving his own path. It's tremendous. I know everybody's happy in Kitchener, as we should all be all around Canada.

MG: OK tell us about him. When was the first time that you knew about, saw Jamal Murray play?

ROWAN BARRETT: I think I saw him first at 14, turning 15. You know, I went and watched his workout at one of the clubs. You know, Will Russell, I think it was at the time said you know Rowan, I've got this kid. You need to come and see him. And I came to the gym. His father, Roger Murray, was there. I mean, you talk about a vigilant father that's all over it, that loves his kid. He was there and I watched this kid, I saw the best workout I'd ever seen. And I called our coach at that moment, and I said look, man, I've got a ringer right here. This guy's going to come lead our team this summer. The coach said, "Rowan, you're all excited. Calm down. You saw him one time." I thought, I don't need to see him another time. This guy is the real deal. And absolutely he was.

MG: I was just going to say like, you see a lot of kids play. What is it that you saw in him that got you that wound up?

ROWAN BARRETT: The first thing, first of all, he was a serial competitor. This was the first thing, right? Like, outside of the talent, the skill, all those things where there, there was decent athleticism, clearly he could shoot. But he was competitive. Like it was like, I'm getting this loose ball. It'd be in an open gym, right, where nobody is going to see this. He's like diving on the floor for the loose ball to make sure his team won the game. Right. It's something you just generally don't see in a pickup run. And then I think the other thing that I came you know, true that was very clear, and his mind, I mean, very serene, very calm. In difficulty, able to rise and make plays consistent, but that that's kind of what I saw there. I mean, if you could look at his psychological profile, if they were grading that on an all-star level, he'd be one of the top players in the NBA, for sure, in that area.

MG: Do you see that now? I mean, you talked about the fact that he's a closer. You watch him play and it's like he believes that he's supposed to be there.

ROWAN BARRETT: Yes. Yes. I mean, you watch him. It's one of the things that, you know, as a player, one of the former player, one of the things you always looked at, you looked at your opponents. You wanted to see any kind of difference in their body language. Right. Any kind of rising emotion. Right. You might be able to use to beat them. You don't see that with him. Look at him. He's calm, right? Shoulders back. He's walking calmly. He's not giddy, he's not jumping up. He's calm in that moment. Right. He's looking for that moment. He's like a heat-seeking missile. Right. Like he's looking for what's hot. He's looking for that moment in the game to just detonate on and he's always been this way. I'm just really, really happy it's kind of coming out now on the larger stage. It took some time, right, just kind of finding your footing in the NBA, like most young players. But now he's clearly in his groove and he's showing it to the world.

MG: So we've heard from the commentators. We've heard from his coach. Let's have a listen to Jamal Murray himself.

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They want me to be consistent. And I'm not gonna lie. That's not easy. That's why the greats are so good, because they don't do it just one night. They do it every night. Every night. I mean, they would win every single night and they will their teams to play harder.

MG: Where does that come from? That that that ... there's that extra thing. The secret sauce. The little, you know, extra bit that's going to push you into that other level. You've worked with a lot of players. Where does that come from?

ROWAN BARRETT: Well, I'm sure some of it's internal right. But I mean his father, I mean his father. The way he raised this kid, I mean, that kid was outside doing push ups in the snow. Right. Like, there is no snow, son. There is no snow. It's not cold. Right. Like, this is kind of how he grew. Right. He's sitting in front of the television with the television off, meditating. Right, as a teenager. Like he is, you walk into to the gym at Kentucky, he's sitting over in the corner for half an hour, meditating. Getting his mind ready and ready to go.

MG: What do you think that does for him? There's been a lot written about his meditation practice. What do you think that does for him?

ROWAN BARRETT: I think you're seeing it at the end of the games. In the most difficult moments, he's calm. He's completely calm. He fully trusts himself. He knows his ability, he knows what he can do, but he's not afraid. You know, the heart's not pumping faster. He's calm in those moments, he knows how to calm himself. And then I think the other thing is just his expectations of himself are very high. Right, it's not like I want to be, you know, the top free throw shooter in the NBA. It's like, I want to be the top free throw shooter ever. Like it's not that I want to be the best player in the NBA. I want to be the best player ever. And so when you start putting, like, the work ethic with the skill, the talent, with the grit, resiliency, right. And then on top of that, you put like the mental, the psychological part of it altogether, you've got a monster on your hands. And I think that's what, you know, the world is seeing right now. I'm so happy to see, you know, the world kind of take notice. I remember John Calipari, when he was in high school. Right, Covino and he recruited you. You got to recruiting trail lakes and you want to get a jump. Make no mistake, this guy's coming to lead your team. You know, Ronny, this is Kentucky. I mean, we've got a lot of guys out here. We got to talk. I said, look, no matter who you got coming through that table, this kid is going to be the guy. And you're talking in January and in January. I talked to him. I said, what did I tell you? He's you're absolutely right. And in the most difficult moment of the season, you go back and look at his stats, January, February, March, you start seeing 25, 28, 35 points. You know, on the road, right. This is who Jamal's kind of always been, and as I said, the NBA world and the world now is getting to see it.

MG: Just before I let you go, two quick things. One is, Friday night he takes on the Los Angeles Lakers and, you know, maybe the greatest player of all time in LeBron James. Does he have a chance?

ROWAN BARRETT: Absolutely — well, I think that one of the things you look at, and first of all, my answer's yes. I think that when you look at NBA series, you look at matchups. Right? You look at matchups. Like who is guarding him? Who's playing the point guard on the other side? Right. I don't think that there's an equal matchup for him. Right. I expect Jamal to perform very, very well in this series. I think that matchup is to his favour. And, you know, so let's see. I mean, I know one thing: he's not going to not perform well because he's overwhelmed by the moment, or because he was scared or anything like this. If he's not performing well, they are taking him out of his game and forcing somebody else to beat them. Right. Like he's not going to self-defeat. He'll be ready.

MG: Other thing, just in a word or two. I mean, he's the pride of Kitchener, Ontario. Did his prep in Orangeville, Ontario. Is he every going to be coming back home to play for the Toronto Raptors?

ROWAN BARRETT: You know what, who knows man. You need a crystal ball to figure that one out. But I know that he's very proud of his country. He loves his country. He's taken on the leadership of our national team program, stepping up as the first one this past year to say, look, I'm here. I'm ready. Count me in. You know, and so I know he loves this country. He drapes himself in the flag any time he can. So hopefully we'll at least see him play for Canada pretty soon.

MG: It's a great story about an impressive young man. Rowan Barrett, thank you.

ROWAN BARRETT: Thanks, guys.

MG: Rowan Barrett is the general manager and executive vice president of the Senior Men's Programme for Canada Basketball. He was in Toronto. This is The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

We've sold out guitars. And it wasn't just us. It's a North American phenomenon where every music store's seen just a spike in music sales, in the intermediate to low end stuff, just because people want to entertain themselves. It's been a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's a curse that, you know, we have to be shut down and locked up. But it's a blessing in terms of our sales. Basically, last time we saw a sales surge like this is when I was buying musical instruments. And that would have been late 80s, early 90s, straight up when Hard Rock was at the forefront of music and was on the radio all the time. This time when you're stuck at home and there's nothing to do, you know, there's only so much Netflix you can watch. You want to use creative mind has to get working so people jump on the guitar.

MG: It's Jason Hart, manager, Steve's music, speaking from the flagship store in St Catherine Street in Montreal. From banana bread to bicycle's, there have been some new and surprising trends that have emerged during this pandemic. And now it's guitars. Sales of guitars are booming and not just in Montreal. Andy Mooney is the CEO of the guitar giant Fender Musical Instruments says his company is on track for record sales in 2020, thanks in part to online purchases and to beginners who are picking up the instrument for the very first time and it's guitar instruction app, which is also seeing record downloads, and that helps people get used to that instrument for the first time. Used by people whose music perhaps sounds a little bit like this.

[Music: Guitar]

MG: That's like me playing the guitar. That's Fort McMurray resident Chris Ashe trying some chord transitions. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS ASH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Great job there. Tell me about picking up the guitar for the very first time. Why did you do that initially? And what got you into the guitar this year?

CHRIS ASH: Initially it was when I was probably around 14, so a couple of years ago, and I was just doing it to look cool. But I just wasn't that dedicated to it because all I was looking for was just being seen with a guitar. Hey, look, I've got this. And it works for me that- I don't think it is now. But, you know, when this pandemic hit, I'm just moved here to Fort McMurray and looking to fill my time. And I was like, oh, that's it. Let's try the guitar. And it's just been a whole lot of fun.

MG: Had you gone through other, I mean, obsessions in the pandemic and it was just the guitars turn.

CHRIS ASH: Yes, because I tried the whole [unintelligible] thing, but then we had the flood up here in Fort McMurray in the water boil advisory killed my Stata. So guitar.

MG: Do you take lessons online? I mean having just held the guitar before because it looked good. Yeah. Were you taking lessons online or how are you trying to figure this out.

CHRIS ASH: So I've been using the Send a Play app which has been pretty incredible. And YouTube as well. There is just so much on that. Like I wish I had this all the resources that we have now. When I was younger, because maybe I have actually been good, then.

MG: How does it feel to learn an instrument and as an adult?

CHRIS ASH: You know, it's a bit of a struggle, especially without the face to face element, which I know soon we'll be able to get. And you can probably get over soon. But it's interesting because I know you're just looking at a screen, you just playing and just hoping it sounds right. But it's fun to suck at something.

MG: Do you do you have a willing audience that's there to help you along and encourage you as you learn?

CHRIS ASH: Yes. Yes. I've got a couple of friends who want me to send video of me playing, which at times is earlier on. And it was kind of embarrassing because it's like watching someone type one finger at time on a keyboard. But I was doing it on a guitar. But I'm getting there now and I'm able to play stuff that I can recognise.

MG: Like what?

CHRIS ASH: I've been working on the intro to Heart of Gold.

MG: Very nice.

CHRIS ASH: And there's this tiny little twang that [unintelligible] will fill in. And I've just been working on that and I can do that. It really messes up the speed of the whole thing. But I can do that and I'm happy I can do that.

MG: What is your next guitar goal, do you think?

CHRIS ASH: I'm not sure. I just want to be able to just sit around and just play stuff and learn a couple more chords and just know no songs and how they're going to come out. And I think I'm getting there just I just need to speed up on it, really. But that's what the Internet is helping out with.

MG: Keep at it, Chris. It's great to talk to you. Good luck.

CHRIS ASH: Thank you. Thank you very much, Chris.

MG: Chris Ash is a budding guitar player, also a radio host. And he was in Fort McMurray in Alberta.

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Hey, I'm Cody Lee Ford from Ottawa, Ontario. I play guitar in No Mistakes in Space, which is a local band here in Ottawa, as well as a band from Sweden, a progressive rock band called Soen. Since Corbitt has impacted us all and especially the music industry. You know, us musicians have had to start looking elsewhere in order to make ends meet. So naturally, a lot of us are giving out music lessons. And the good news is, is that there's been a lot of interest from people just needing something to do. A lot of people are picking up the guitar now, and it's great to see. The silver lining is that, you know, there's been a lot of interests in guitar lessons and that people from all around the worlds know Sony Music have been contacting me to do Zoom lessons. So it's a great way to be able to have a better relationship with the fans and to just rediscover my own passion for playing guitar and just practising in my downtime has been- it has been really nice, actually.

MG: From Ottawa. That's Cody Lee Ford, one of the benefits of this pandemic is that his band Soen has been able to spend a lot of time working on a new album. And that is expected next spring. The great Canadian rock group, The Arkells. And like most bands, have not played a live show with an audience since this pandemic began. What have they been doing in their spare time? Have a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Guitar music].

Sharp minor. F sharp minor. E. A. C sharp minor. F sharp minor. E. And that is basically how a whole song goes.

MG: That's from what the band calls the Flat and the Curved Music Classes. Here to tell us more, Max Kerman, lead singer of Arkells. Max, good morning.

MAX KERMAN: Hey, Matt, good to talk to you.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Tell me a little bit about these music classes. How did they all come together?

MAX KERMAN: Well, I thought we were going to be inside when quarantine started for about six or seven days. So I said, OK, I'll go online maybe 1:00 p.m. every day and show people how to play our song. It turned out that we were still inside. And after going through 58 straight days in music classes, where we cover our every single song in our catalogue, I packed it in. But I'm of the belief that if you can learn four or five chords on a guitar, you can play 90 percent of popular music. So and I want to sort of demystifies, you know, guitar playing for any new beginner, because I think people are often intimidated unnecessarily, because if you have a guitar and you learn four or five cards got you can play any song.

MG: What was the reaction like? I mean, people would be jazzed to just, you know, be able to kind of interact with you. But the idea of learning to play from somebody whose music they listen to is a whole other level. How do people respond?

MAX KERMAN: It was fun. It is very interactive. We did these- it was on Instagram lies. And I beam people in like it was Chatroulette not knowing who is going to come on and make it ask their questions in real time. But, you know, I think even for our band, there are these YouTube guitar tutorials. [Unintelligible], if I'm trying to learn a song and I can't quite figure it out. I'll look it up on YouTube like I'll go, that's how you do it. I think a lot of professional musicians would just tell you if they're being awesome themselves, that that's how they will learn how to play a cover. And actually, it's funny, this interview, the timing that somebody just posted, acquitting you guitar tutorials like this morning I just retweeted our account from.

MG: But like the guitar tutorial of one of your own tunes.

MAX KERMAN: Yes, that's right. Yeah. So I was actually just about to go through to see how correct it was. But there's a whole industry up there on YouTube is that are, you know, just showing beginners how to play solitaire.

MG: People have time on their hands. And we heard Chris Ash there in Fort Mac talking about picking up the guitar for the first time in a long time. Are you finding that the more people perhaps are picking up a guitar now because they are stuck at home, maybe bored, maybe have some time on their hands and they're looking for something to do?

MAX KERMAN: Yes, for sure. I think there's a couple of reasons. One, I think that 2020 is a quieter year. You know, there's no big events and a lot of groups are spending more time in their backyards or a cottage or in the kitchen. And you have to kind of make your own fun and you provide your own entertainment. So I think that's one big reason why, you know, guitar sales are surging. I also think I was hanging out with my 13 year old niece, Emma, the other day. And I always like to ask questions about, like what happens in her world when it comes to pop culture and just tell me about tick tock. And she was like all I'll turn up tick tock. And she would telling me about the music that she'd like. And she was saying she likes Tame Impala and Calero and Vampire Weekend. And I was like, oh, this is a very guitar based music. And, you know, I think a lot of older people think any modern music is just all computers and keyboards. But you'd be surprised. I think there's a big and growing trend, especially for younger listeners with music that's centred around guitars and even something like Billy Eilish, very musical stuff. And you can't recreate that on your laptop. There's something about the guitar specifically. If you want to get into production or song writing where you actually have to learn it, you can't just do it all in MIDI, which is all very computer based stuff.

MG: Your concerts are spectacles. They are big community event where people are there, you're there. There's this connection that happens between what's going on on the stage, what's happening in the crowd. You haven't played for a while. What do you miss most about it?

MAX KERMAN: I try not to think about it, Matt. I get emotional. I mean, the rituals of the day, I think, are what I miss the most. You know, it's like thinking about soundcheck, thinking about what the setlist looks like, you know, doing a radio interview before the show, doing a hand's in. And then, of course, the show itself and then the pizza that we eat after we're like carefree, little stupid detail is what I miss. And I just keep telling myself, it's like, OK, we all got to behave ourselves and then listen to the scientists so we can get back there as soon as possible because if we don't, wouldn't be that long.

MG: But there are a lot of people who, I mean, who've been hurt hard by this. The musicians who make their money touring. The people who support those musicians. The venues, the bars, the restaurants, the clubs that we all went to. What's the health, do you think of the music industry six or seven months into this thing?

MAX KERMAN: Yes. I mean, it's not ideal. I mean, there's been some great government support in place. And I think everybody is trying to be as patient and adult like it's possible. But yes. You know, I was talking to our friend Eric, who is our promoter here in Toronto, and he's been involved in some of these driving shows. And he's saying that like talking to some of the crew members and bands, even those shows are the ideal concert experience by any means. He was saying people are getting emotional by it, the people working the events, the people that look, the crew that are on the road 150 days a year, being back in the saddle and and and being a part of a show was a very, like, emotional, deep experience, even if it was just for one night. So I yes, I think yes, it can be, I think, a really cathartic thing when people get back at it.

MG: We learn a lot about things when they're taken away from us. What have you learnt personally coming through all this?

MAX KERMAN: You know what? There's you know, I would feel like I'm the luckiest job in the world. It's such a fun job every day it's a little bit different. And I get to be creative and I get to make little small business decisions and I get to collaborate with a lot of different people. But yes, there's a rhythm of my yearwhich I kind of leaned on to the last, you know, five, seven, 10 years, which is I okay. In the summer we'll do some festivals, then we'll get to travel. Maybe it seems like we go to the U.K. or Germany every single summer. And in the winter, you know, I'll spend a miserable day in Winnipeg, but I'll love it be February and minus 35. And, yes, this is a trip. And those things aren't happening this year. And so I just really, I think the whole band, anytime that we might have grumbled about the travel or we're unhappy about this or that, you know, we look back and say, oh, that was actually a pretty amazing. And we're pretty, I think even keel band. And we're really grateful for for everything that we have. But now I think when we head back to work, wherever that is, we'll be able to savour everything that much more.

MG: OK. 30 seconds. Guitar tip for somebody who's just picking up the instrument for the first time or like Kris picked it up when they were young because they thought it looked cool but never learnt how to play it. What's the one thing I need to know as I pick up the guitar for the first time?

MAX KERMAN: Well, Chris mentioned learning, learning Neil Young. I think that's something that you can kind of hear yourself playing. That's a great start. Neil Young, for example, most of his songs are three chords. So I think with a heart of gold, I think it is with a E minor to G or some like that. So if you learn an E minor, a G, a D and a C, you're good. That's all you need. And every song can be transposed into that key. So just learn some basic first position chords and you're good to go.

MG: And then who knows. Soon you'll be singing along with Arkells.

MAX KERMAN: Well, we have a bed where we invite people on stage to play private school, which is D, G and E minor. So just actually that's quite right. Learn D, G and E minor. And in the next Arkell show, we may put you on stage.

MG: By the time this is over, you'll know how to play it. Max. Great to talk to you, as always.

MAX KERMAN: Thank you.

MG: Max KErman. Lead singer of Arkells. Are you learning how to play an instrument for the first time? Are you learning how to play an instrument again because you never really learnt how to play it before? You can let us know. Get in touch. Let me record something on your phone of you learning how to play it and email it to us at thecurrent@cbc.ca, you could post it up on Twitter. You learning the guitar for the first time. And if you have tips for other people, that would be helpful. Doesn't need to be the guitar. Could be other instruments. Maybe it's the bagpipe or the ukulele. Tweet us @The CurrentCBC or go to the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. That is it for the programme for today. Q is up next on CBC Radio one. Tom Power speaking with the fantastic actress and now director Regina King. She has a new film that was screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival called One Night in Miami. And you'll hear all about it coming up on CBC Radio one to take us to the news. How about a bit of Arkells. They have a new record out. And this is a song that Max mentioned, Quitting You. And it's a song that you can imagine people learning how to play. There's the tutorial up online and you could perhaps sing it around the campfire. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow, too. [sc] [Song] [/sc]

The Current Transcript for September 17, 2020

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