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The Current Transcript for September 15, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

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VOICE: I'm not super worried. I guess I'm just a young millennial.

MATT GALLOWAY: The increases in new COVID cases have plenty of people super worried. In many provinces, those spikes are happening in those under the age of 40. Why isn't the message of handwashing, wearing a mask and social distancing sticking? How better to cut through the pandemic fatigue in 30 minutes. And then, former Health Minister Jane Philpott on the hard lessons she learnt while working in a long term care facility in the spring. Meanwhile, the legendary director Werner Herzog, isn't going to let a global pandemic get in the way of telling stories.

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VOICE: Storytelling is in the human race since primordial times, since tens of thousands of years. People gathering around the campfire and telling stories. So that will not be taken from us.

MG: The stories he's telling in his latest film are about the physical and cultural impacts of meteorites slamming into the Earth from deep space. Werner Herzog in an hour. But as smoke drifts across this country, we begin with the wildfires of Oregon and how they're fanning the flames of disinformation online. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music: theme]

Misinformation campaigns about US west coast wildfires are spreading fast

Guests: Dan Leavell, Jane Lytvenenko

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VOICE: The fires that are going on in the western United States right now are unprecedented, even to our most senior leadership and senior most tenured people in incident management teams in this country. We have not seen this before.

MG: That's Tom Clemo, member of California Incident Management team working to manage the wildfires in the western United States. The two governors are calling unprecedented. At least 36 people have died along the West Coast. Firefighters say some of the flames are almost as tall as the Statue of Liberty. And thick smoke has crept its way from California to Washington, now hangs in the air over British Columbia and is visible all the way to Ontario. Dan Leavell is a firefighter of 30 years, now retired, an associate professor of forest and fire services and the State fire specialist at Oregon State University. And he is in Corvallis, Oregon. Dan, good morning.

DAN LEAVELL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When you went to bed last night. Describe what it looked like outside where you are.

DAN LEAVELL: Well, it's like smoke fog. It's we don't have the orange sky here in the Willamette Valley where I live, but it's a very dense dirty fog that is kind of like a pall over the entire area. Visibility is very low. It started to break up a little bit last night. But for the past week, it's been very thick and excuse my hoarseness, I've been breathing this smoke for a week, but it's it's a very thick fog. Dirty fog.

MG: So that affects your voice. Does it it smell like smoke in the air as well?

DAN LEAVELL: It does, yes. When I was on the fire line for all those years, we lived it and that's what it reminds me of. But everywhere here in the valley where we are.

MG: Have you ever seen anything like this before?

DAN LEAVELL: Not to this extent. You know, I've been on large fires and for 30 years, every fire season, lived in this and but to this extent, this I mean, there's over a million acres burned in the state of Oregon already. And not to this extent, no.

MG: How do you go about trying to tackle something like that? There's something like 35 active fires right now, according to the Office of Emergency Management in your state.

DAN LEAVELL: Well, the incident command system was started in the 70s and when I started fighting fire and it's one of the best ways to organize a response to an incident that I've ever seen. And the firefighters, the first responders, the men and women, first responders, including the Canadians and the Australians and and other countries as well, are the American firefighters are the best in the world. And these folks are trained. They're skilled, they're they want to do the best thing. And and it's it's organised up and down the ladder from the large area to the individual fire and using the incident command system and their process of organizing is how they handle it. Otherwise, it would be chaos. And the more organization put into it, the more effective they are.

MG: How many firefighters would be out dealing with something like this?

DAN LEAVELL: Well, there are 30,000 firefighters right now up and down the the West Coast. And I'm told thousands of resources that that are being utilised both air and ground, but there are 30,000 firefighters, you know, 20 firefighters to one crew. And it's an entire organization set up to deal with these incidents.

MG: Do you have to come up with, given the scale of this and you've kind of hinted at this when it comes to the organization of this, but do you have to come up with new ways of fighting these types of fires given given the scale of what's happening right now?

DAN LEAVELL: Well, you do. There are time tested strategies and tactics used and logistics that have proven to be effective no matter what the size of the incident weather is and even whether it's a hurricane or or a flood. So incident management, there are time tested ways to do that, that work. The innovation comes in when the winds are blowing at, you know, 40 to 90 miles an hour and it's really dry, single digit humidities and high temperatures. And it creates a fire behaviour, intensity and severity that are just unmanageable. And that's where the innovation comes in. Do you back off? Do you get defensive? Do you go on offence? Do you, where do you anchor in? Where do you follow? You know, flank it out. And then the innovation comes. And now with more homes being built in this environment at a greater density than ever before, the innovation comes in. Well, how what do you deal? How do you deal with those? You know, how do you do structure protection? How do you evacuate people? How do you. The interface is where the greatest innovation is needed to deal with that.

MG: What is your sense as to why this year is so bad? And I mean, the fire season hasn't the traditional fire season hasn't even really started yet, but why is what we're seeing right now so bad?

DAN LEAVELL: Well, it's a combination of of many things. Temperature, the you know, the past six years, we started taking temperature readings in the 1880. So about 140 years ago, if you look at the temperature readings during that 140 years, the past six years are the hottest on that 140 year record. And that there's one thing. The other thing is that, you know, we've as firefighters, we're very successful in putting fires out and we put out probably 98 plus percent of all fires starts, which is kind of ironic, given that these million acres burned are the two percent we didn't get. And so there's fire suppression that's been very effective over the past hundred years. There's a huge biomass build up in in forests or huge accumulation of of fuel. Homes are fuel and there's more homes, more people, more density of homes, of fuel boxes, if you will. And then the you put the the high temperatures and low humidities hotter and drier and fires are starting earlier, ending later. And this whole web of change creates you put a spark to that and a high wind like we had from the east instead of the westerly oceanic influence we had last Monday, we had this blast of 40 mile per hour east easterly winds and it creates, that combination, creates the perfect storm and that's what happened.

MG: Just before I let you go, you've been talking about the temperature increasing. The governor has said that this is a wakeup call to climate change. You've been in this world for a long time and in looking at how these fires spread, but also how to put them out, what are you most concerned about in the long term?

DAN LEAVELL: I'm most concerned about prevention, mitigation. What I would really like to see, and we've been saying this for a couple of decades, if I had one dollar to put upfront for prevention, mitigation, preplanning for every million dollars I've spent during and after, we would be so much better off. And now with more people moving in, we need to redefine what we're now calling the wildland urban interface needs. And your definition. We need to be more proactive in sound, healthy managing for healthy forests and reducing fuel and maintaining wildlife habitat. We need to be more proactive and increase the scope and scale of doing that. And we just need to organizationally deal with more upfront work than response work.

MG: Stay safe and I wish you the best. I mean, you can hear it in your voice. It's hard air to breathe, so I wish you the best out there. Dan, thank you.

DAN LEAVELL: Thank you, Matt. Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it. Take care.

MG: And you. Dan Leavell is a firefighter of 30 years, now retired. Also, an associate professor of forest and fire science and the State fire specialist at Oregon State University.

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VOICE: It was in the town of Molalla, small community in Oregon, very close to the fires. Myself and two colleagues, two other journalists, we were there documenting the evacuation efforts, as well as the firefighting efforts. And we were approached by a car full of armed men. Three of them they had disembarked their weapons at us while we were filming and they threatened us with their weapons, of course, and told us to leave. They just kept telling us to leave. And fortunately, I was able to de-escalate the situation. I convinced them that we were journalists here doing our jobs peacefully. We weren't looters or arsonists, but they seemed to be convinced that there are kind of malicious people running around in their communities doing harm, starting fires or looting. This played out in an almost violent encounter. These people do not trust local authorities as much as they should. They do not really trust the news and instead they trust their neighbours. We saw this play out with this viral spreading of misinformation of left wing antifa protesters tied to the Portland protests being down there with the goal of setting wildfires. And this is very unfortunate I think.

MG: I think as Justin Yao, freelance journalist who's been covering the fires in Oregon. The misinformation and disinformation around the cause of the West Coast wildfires is spreading as fast as the fires themselves, according to our next guest. Jane Lytvenenko is a senior reporter for BuzzFeed News focusing on disinformation and online investigations. Jane, good morning.

JANE LYTVENENKO: Good morning.

MG: Justin Yao's describing his experience in Molalla outside of Portland. What do you make of that?

JANE LYTVENENKO: Unfortunately, it's not unique. The false information surrounding the wildfires has been really reaching fever pitch over the weekend and early last week. We've seen people post to local Facebook groups sort of saying that they're looking for antifa, which which means antifascist activists. But really has. The term has taken on a life of its own and created a bogeyman for people who are already, you know, already afraid and have already been hearing a lot of false information about 85 in the area. So it's it's not a great situation. And we're really see the fans being fanned on social media.

MG: What specifically are you seeing? What sort of things pop up on social media when it comes to, I mean, Justin talked about what he was involved in, but what else are you seeing?

JANE LYTVENENKO: You know, there's all kinds of false information. Everything from the fires be set intentionally to people specifically saying that they have seen people set these fires intentionally. Really these rumours started on Thursday last week, and they started with local group when a couple of people posted sort of claiming that they saw antifa activists coming to town to start fires. And what didn't help matters was a little bit of a vague statement from the local police telling people to just watch out for four strangers of the neighbourhood. People took that to mean that they need to protect their neighbourhoods from and to fire at. Local police later clarified many other police departments in the area have issued statements asking people to not share the false information that the wildfires were started by some mysterious outside force, but it was too late by then.

MG: Paul J. Romero Jr. is a former Republican Senate candidate from Oregon. He tweeted that Antifa is setting fires in Oregon. His tweet was retweeted 10,000 times, shared 680,000 times on Facebook. Tell me a bit more about the reach that these sorts of false stories are getting.

JANE LYTVENENKO: Yeah, that was a real problem. But he is by far not the only person who tweeted or posted something false about the fires and saw that go viral. I've seen several articles go viral on Facebook. The rumours are on tech talk. They're on Instagram. They're on Twitter. They're really on every social media platform. They're platform agnostic. And over the weekend, feedback has announced that they are taking steps to minimize these rumours and as has Twitter. But again, with false information, we need to move quickly, otherwise, it gets out of hand. And that'shat happened. We've seen people associated with a right wing right wing movement or white nationalist movement, really, according to the FBI, spread information on Telegraph and another sort of obscure channel that made its way into the mainstream media. And so what the social media companies, they really acted too quickly.

MG: You said Antifa has become a bit of a bogeyman. What do you mean by that?

JANE LYTVENENKO: Well, over the past four years or so, we've been hearing the same drumbeat about Antifa activists. And at the beginning in 2016, when they first sort of rose into public consciousness, what they really meant was sort of the activists that were willing to protect vulnerable groups if those vulnerable groups faced violence and antifa quite literally stand for antifascist. But over the years, the word has been attributed to all kinds of global events, everything from shootings to other natural disasters to to false information having to do with the election. So so over the last four years, many people have been hearing and TFR in this terrifying negative connotation for a very long time. And so it's not surprising that they believe.

MG: Difficult to separate, you know, what happens online from, as they say, the real world, but if you take that offline, what's the impact of these sorts of disinformation campaigns?

JANE LYTVENENKO: You know Matt, I was really struck last week listed reading messages from firefighters that were posted to Facebook, reading messages from first responders, begging, literally begging people to stop sharing false information. And I was struck by that because we had the exact same scenario play out during the early days of COVID when conspiracy theories started flying. And first responders, nurses, doctors had to deal with them. They pleaded for the same. We're in a situation right now where first responders are exhausted and are needed and instead, they are being asked to deal with false information. And that's false information that is causing people to go out on the streets to patrol them. And it's heightening the potential for violence. There are immense real world impacts. And just because we can't trace how one single Facebook message impacts the world at large, although in some cases we can. It doesn't mean that the false information that's being shared across social media doesn't have an impact.

MG: I was reading something suggesting that every news, event or crisis is going to in some way be engaged through this lens of a conspiracy theory. Is that what you're expecting, that every time something big happens, there will be people who try to use that to their advantage?

JANE LYTVENENKO: You know, that has been the case for many years now. I've been doing this job for almost four years. And that has been the pattern that we've been seeing. There's no reason why it should stop.

MG: How do you then, just in the last minute or so, how do you then try to to turn that down? I mean, the social media companies themselves are trying to remove some of those posts. But beyond that, what do you do?

JANE LYTVENENKO: Well, we need to be aware that our actions on social media have real consequences. We need to be as careful as we can online in terms of what we share and that's by no means a perfect solution, but it's the only one we have. We have a responsibility to the community that we've built online, our friends, our family, our acquaintances or co-workers and we should take that responsibility seriously.

MG: Jane, thank you.

JANE LYTVENENKO: Thank you for having me.

MG: Jane Lytvenenko is a senior reporter for BuzzFeed News, focusing on disinformation and online investigations. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then.

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VOICE: We don't want to prevent us from you know enjoying basically our lives.

MG: COVID-19 is on the rise and people under 40. In about six minutes, we will talk with how to keep young people vigilant while at the same time telling them it's OK to return to bars and restaurants. Is that a mixed message? There are a number of people who say yes. So how do we ensure that the messages that we keep sharing actually resonate with the people who need to hear the most? I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music]

Harm reduction approach is better than blaming young people for COVID-19 uptick, says neuroscientist

Guests: Samantha Yammine, Jane Philpott

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, the former health minister, Jane Philpott shares her insights about the pandemic after working at a long term care facility. But first, getting the COVID-19 message out to the youth.

[Music: theme]

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[Clip of Paul Rudd PSA about wearing masks].

MG: Certified young person Paul Rudd with a COVID message brought to you by the state of New York. It's in response to a troubling new trend that has emerged here in Canada as well.

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VOICE: Over the summer months. And currently we're seeing a very different demographic being affected. Which is young people, particularly around 20 to 29-year-olds right now. So this is a group that we need to pay particular attention to in terms of strengthening measures.

MG: That's one of the points that stood out for me in my conversation yesterday with Dr.Theresa Tam, Canada's Chief Public Health Officer in Ontario. Almost 70 percent of cases announced on Monday occurred in the under 40 demographic. And this shift that's happening right across the country is raising questions about public health policies and messaging. Samantha Yammine is a neuroscientist and science communicator. You'll find her online as ScienceSam. She's in Toronto. Sam, good morning.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Why do you think we are seeing more cases of Colvard 19 amongst people under the age of 40?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: We're still trying to get the hard data to answer this question unequivocally, but we can make some pretty good hypotheses now that people aren't receiving government support, a lot of them are having to go back to work. And a lot of people who are under 40 plus people in their 20s, they work on the front lines in places like restaurants where they might be exposed to people not wearing a mask. They're heading back to school. They're working at the schools as well. And so I think work could be a really big thing. Are more reliant on public transportation. There's a lot of different factors that might force people below 40 and particularly in their 20s. Let's say you need to be exposed and be in less safe working conditions that might not necessarily be their fault.

MG: Can I ask and this is not a question that I normally ask people. How are you?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I am 30 years old.

MG: OK. So the point that I the reason that I was asking that is because the group we're talking about is is is your generation. This is your demographic.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Yeah, my friends.

MG: So. OK. So amongst your friends, the work thing is one part. The other assumption is that people are going out there meeting friends in in restaurants or bars because we've been stuck inside for months and the weather's been nice and people can do that. Is that what you're hearing amongst your friends?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I mean, absolutely. Let's not deny the fact that this age group is a very social age group. Anecdotally, amongst my friends. Yeah, people are hanging out typically outside. You know, maybe I wish they would be a little bit further apart. They're taking off their masks, but people are hanging out because I think they're especially right now a really big anxiety and fear about what's going to happen when winter comes and we can't see each other as safely anymore. With that said, there are some people who are hanging out, going to restaurants and you see indoor is going to bars, city indoor and where they can't distance because tables aren't more than six feet and they're going with people outside their bubble and that's a close contact situation.

MG: So part of this is about the messaging and I want to get into that in a moment. But we know that in terms of how to change it, but we know what the message is. You know, social distance. Wear a mask. Wash your hands. Why, given that, would people think that it's OK to go and meet friends, particularly friends that might not be in your bubble?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: To be fair, we don't know that that's the full, we don't know that socialising and just having fun, that's the main reason there is an uptick in this group. However, when it's been given the green light, when your public health officials have told you, your government told you you're allowed to do these things, it seems less scary. It seems like it's safe. And so the part that you should only be dining with people in your bubble. I don't think that's been emphasised enough at all. And I think it's just walking down the street and see people who are out. It seems pretty clear people are going to these places with folks outside their bubble.

MG: John Ross is 37. He lives in Edmonton. He recovered from COVID-19, was diagnosed after somebody that he worked with tested positive. He has since been out to bars and restaurants, but he's worried that young people who go out are being blamed for spreading the virus. Have a listen.

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VOICE: I have a hard time using the word blame. If Deena Hinshaw says this is allowed, then really there's no blame to be placed and I don't know if it's on the restaurants and bars that it's happening. I think you know people hanging with friend groups and their cohort groups and and the younger generation seem to be doing a little more relaxed on that because they're getting frustrated with how long everything has been shut down.

MG: He mentioned Deena Hinshaw, that's the chief medical officer of health in Alberta, saying that going to bars and restaurants is allowed. What is that mixed message to?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: It completely confuses people. First of all, makes them think that it's, you know, they don't need to think carefully about doing these things. We don't have to, you know, maybe doing a once, maybe going out once or twice a month, maybe that's not such a big deal, but if you're doing it every day, seeing different people, that's a lot of exposure. And I think this confusion makes people frustrated, makes them think maybe it's not that serious anymore and then we start to get a little bit out of control.

MG: So what about messaging? We heard a little bit of Paul Rudd there. How can public health officials and governments do a better job of getting the message out to this age group, to your age group? This is something that Theresa Tam talked about yesterday that we have to, as a society, do a better job of reaching the people who perhaps, like all of us, are fatigued, but feel as though they are impervious to and not going to be bothered by this virus. So how do we get a better message to those people?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I've been concerned about the lack of clear communication lines with this age demographic since March when we were seeing the spring break outbreaks happening, because a lot of the official communication is happening on broadcast television and it's happening when it is on social media. It's on Twitter primarily. None of the public health officials have an Instagram account or a TikTok account. And that's where this demographic is. So there are no direct lines of communication between the officials and even between the epidemiologists. There are no direct lines of communication with this age demographic because the majority of them are not dealing with using media on the places where they're having important conversations. So the where is a huge, huge issue that I don't see being resolved. And a lot of independent communicators have now and scientists like myself have now stepped up and are trying to put the information out there on these platforms. You know that's where people are.

MG: What about the what? I mean, you know, the mayor of Toronto yesterday was saying stay off the party bus and stay off the party boat. Is that the kind of message that's going to stick with people?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: No. We know from years of tax that that abstinence and kind of this shame focused communication value doesn't work with anyone, particularly with this age group. I think we need to really be careful about how we put blame and shame. That doesn't help. It's going to make people tune out. Instead, we need to follow what experts know works for infectious diseases, which is a harm reduction model, empowering people with the tools to make better decisions, knowing that no one's going to have a zero percent risk. It's very hard to do. How do I make my risk as close to zero as possible? How do I, you know, take care of my mental health, your friend, but do so as safely as possible. Go to work because I need to pay rent, but do that as safely as possible. And if I make a mistake, the important thing here that I think government has not been doing a good enough job saying if I make a mistake, what happens next? Mistakes happen. You know, maybe I did drink too much and I got too close and I didn't pay attention. What I do next really matters if I know to stay home and isolate and get tested after five days or so, that could make a huge difference in stopping a potential outbreak. And so we need those clear lines of communication that are shaped free and open so that we can make sure that people are making the right decisions before, during and after any potential exposure.

MG: Sam, great to talk to you. Thank you.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Thanks so much for having me.

MG: Samantha Yammine is a neuroscientist and a science communicator in Toronto. You can find her on TikTok, Instagram, yes, on Twitter as well. This is The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway. Stopping the spread of COVID-19 amongst under 40's is a big concern. But remember those early terrifying days of the pandemic when the disease was spreading fast and it was most devastating in long term care homes? Many staff had fled for fear that the disease could infect them. Perhaps they were just worried about the disease and what was going on in broader society. The stories of what happened as a result were horrifying. There were patients who were left without food or water, sometimes in their own urine and faeces. Amid that disaster, my next guest was amongst those who stepped forward to help. Before, Dr. Jane Phlipott was dean of the Faculty of Health Sciences at Queen's University, before she served as federal health minister in Justin Trudeau's first government, she was a family doctor. And when a care home in her area was struck with an outbreak, she answered the call.

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VOICE: Like everyone else I wanted to be able to be helpful. This is not something I would have expected to do, but it's changed me. And I am you know, we have gone through some terrible grief. Unfortunately, 6 of the 40 residents died. It was a horrible experience in that way, but in terms of understanding more what the lives of these people and those who care for them are like. It has been an experience that has made me, I hope, a better person.

MG: That was Jane Philipot on The Current in May. She has now written about her experience in a book she co-edited called, Vulnerable: The Law. Policy and Ethics of COVID-19. Dr. Jane Phiipott, good morning.

JANE PHILPOTT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When you reflect on that time that we were speaking about in May, in your experience at Participation House, how do you think that experience changed you?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, as I said when I spoke to back then, so many months ago, it did change me. It awakened me to things that perhaps I should have known after all the years that I'd been a health care provider. But I think we all get in our in our silos and we're we're not necessarily focussed on some sectors of the population. So the experience that I had back in April and May was working in a group home for a severely disabled adults, people who had intellectual and physical and developmental disabilities. And it was a profound experience to realise just how much these people depended on the care providers who were around them. And it was a terribly frightening time when literally 95 percent of the people that lived in that home developed COVID.

MG: You describe arriving and you immediately describe it sort of as a war zone. And in your writing in this book, you say maybe that was overdramatic, but it was a reflection of of the moment at that time. Is there a moment in the time that you spent there doing that work that you still think about that still runs through your mind?

JANE PHILPOTT: Oh, there are many moments from that time that keep going through my mind. And periodically I talk to some of the folks who are still there to get an update on how they're doing. And everyone is still still hasn't fully wrestled with their grief. You know, I describe in the book the textbook that she talked about called Vulnerable. I describe the moment when one of our residents was being rolled out on a gurney, being taken over to the local hospital. And I watch the eyes of the women who were personal support workers who had been with him for over 30 years. He had lived in that group home for over 30 years. And I watched them as they saw him roll out the door wondering whether they would ever see him again. This was much more than a care provider patient situation. This was a family member to them. These were people that had surrounded them, fed them, changed them. And we were all so busy that no one, the personal support worker, couldn't go with them to the hospital. They were putting him in the hands of the paramedics who would deliver him to the hospital. And just the look in those worker's eyes, it was something that will stick with me forever. This sense of helplessness and the sense of hope that that when he arrived at the hospital that people would understand him, would find a way to communicate him with him and would give him the the dignity and dignified care that he needed.

MG: That concept of vulnerability is a really powerful one. Why is that the lens that is appropriate to to see the impact of this pandemic?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, it turns out that almost any pandemic, infectious diseases, when they spread, they find the cracks in society and they find out who doesn't have the right amount of care, who doesn't have access to services, who is already suffering on the basis of their physical or social or economic deprivation. And it's those people who get sicker and those people who die. And we certainly have seen that in the case of kov it. It has reminded us that society's eyes turn our attention often to the places where there is already the most money and already the most capacity, and that the virus reminds us that it's looking elsewhere to do its damage. And we have to change our mindset to be a step ahead of the virus and say who is most likely to be impacted by this? And have they got the support that they need to protect themselves?

MG: To that end, I mean, how do you see what happened at Participation House and other long term care homes in moral terms? We've used this word reckoning a lot to talk about what we've learnt and what we're still learning. What's what's the the moral argument for us focusing more on what happens in those settings?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, you know, you often think about what Martin Luther King Jr. said, that, you know, whatever affects one of us directly affects all of us indirectly. And this virus has has reminded us that, you know, ill health anywhere really has an impact on wellness everywhere and that this continues to spread because we're not cognisant of of looking out for those who are most vulnerable. So there absolutely is a moral imperative. But that moral imperative has to actually translate into practical, pragmatic changes in terms of the rules that we lay down about how facilities are going to be run in terms of of where we put our money, where we put our attention and our focus. And, you know, it's always the challenge to go from moral outrage to pragmatic solutions. And that will continue to be a challenge for us.

MG: Is that one of the things that you learned? I mean, having spent time in government, having spent time as the federal health minister, is that where that money goes and where that money is needed, is that one of the things that was exposed to you in this moment? That perhaps you weren't aware of or did not fully understand in your previous life in government?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think that was certainly one of the lessons that happened in those early days of the pandemic. And I actually would have to say I think we're in a better place now than we were then because of the lessons we learnt back in the spring. You know, when it comes to health care, the biggest dollars are spent in hospitals. And that was where we essentially batten down the hatches most successfully in the in the early days of the pandemic. And as as hospitals were all ready to go and had effectively found space, moved people around, made sure that emergency departments were ready to go. Meanwhile, we found these other sectors of the population that hadn't had the training and infection prevention control, hadn't had the the amount of personal protective equipment that was necessary. And I think we were certainly caught off guard. Places like Kingston, where I'm living now, had I have good news stories to tell in that regard because they did pay attention and protected those areas so that there were no institutional outbreaks. But now I think everybody's in a somewhat better position because of the lessons that we learnt. But it will still be you know, there are always wishes that these viruses can be sneakier than the rest of us and we have to always be on the alert.

MG: I guess there are a number of questions that are being asked now, though, about why more wasn't done to prepare. That we've had warnings for years, especially after SARS and H1N1, about our vulnerability to pandemics and how the most vulnerable in our society would be affected disproportionately. When you look back on that, what are you know, aside from from, you know, redirecting perhaps some some dollars and some attention to long term care, what are some of the other things that you think we could have been thinking about to be better prepared?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, certainly our attention to the public health sector is one of our ongoing challenges. And, you know, you're it's it's pretty hard to change human nature. And we are not as individuals or as a society, very good at at investing in the ounce of prevention, even though we know it's worth a pound of cure. And so we see that public health at. Any order of government have remained underfunded and in some ways under coordinated and understaffed. So, you know, going forward, I hope, as are various orders of government are looking at where they're putting their dollars, that they do put it into public health and prevention mechanisms. And society has to be behind them in that, you know, p the financial decisions are made by policymakers based on the pressure that they're hearing from society. And, you know, this is a time for us to look beyond the narrow confines of our own self-interest and look out for what's best as a society, because ultimately it does reflect back on on the safety and and ability for all of us to live our lives in a in a healthy and comfortable way. But if we if we aren't looking out for the most vulnerable, we will continue to see this pandemic and others like it spread in a way that will have adverse impacts on everyone.

MG: What needs to be done right now to ensure that there is not another wave of disasters and long term care? Winter is approaching, the case counts are on the rise and people are wondering what's going to happen in the next couple of months.

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think we need to ensure that those places do have the resources that they need to provide the health workforce that's necessary. One of the big sections in the book that I was involved in was it was looking at workforce issues and certainly know whether you're looking at the agrifood sector or the health care sector or others. It's places where we see people that are underpaid, where they're having to work and multiple facilities at the same time, where they're living often in crowded circumstances. So making sure that people are paid well to do that important work is is critical and having the kinds of standards that that are already in place to ensure that long term care is run in a way that it will have the infection prevention control systems in place and a good chain of supply for their personal protective equipment for the most part. I think that we're in a better place, but we absolutely can't take our eye off the ball on that one.

MG: I was going to say, do you worry that that we've let our guard down in some ways? I mean, in the moments of crisis and in the, you know, the eye of that storm, you can be laser focused on things, but people are tired and this has gone on and there's that pandemic fatigue that sets in. Do you worry that that people perhaps have taken their foot off the pedal?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, there's no question that people are tired and, you know, six months seems like an eternity in some ways, but you know I have to give a shout out to the people who are quietly working away in the background. And as I say, right here in the in the Kingston region, we have a fantastic medical officer of health who has absolutely not let his guard down, nor has the rest of his team and those around him. People continue to put hours and hours every day into making sure that all of the mechanisms are in place so that the infections are prevented, that we have have much better case recognition and contact tracing systems than we did six months ago. And so, you know, while people are tired, I have to say, well, from what I am seeing, there's an enormous amount of good work going on. And hopefully, as we are starting to see worrisome signals of a second wave, we will find ourselves much able, much better able to quash those outbreaks as they will inevitably happen in the months to come.

MG: Just in the remaining 30 seconds or so that we have, we were talking earlier about efforts to get young people to take this seriously, people who might not be as vulnerable, but appear to be driving the spike that we're seeing here and around the world. What would you want them to think about?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I thought your last guest was fantastic, by the way, and she just had such great recommendations. You know, I think that young people want to be part of the solution. I'm very cognisant about our ageist tendencies in terms of of what it means to classifying older people in a particular way and characterising them in one way. But we can do the same to young people, you know. So I, having a lot of young people in my life, I don't like to see as always painting them in in a negative sector. There are certainly a few bad actors, as there are in every age group in society. But the young people that I'm seeing here on campus at Queen's University are for the most part, really trying hard to follow the rules, to wear their masks, to do their social distancing. We need to reinforce the positive, continue to provide great education and as your last guest said, make sure that we minimize the harms along the way.

MG: Jane, great to speak with you again. I appreciate it.

JANE PHILPOTT: OK, great to talk to you, Matt. Thanks for calling.

MG: Dr Jane Philpott is the former federal minister of health and now dean of the faculty of Health Sciences at Queens University, and she's co-editor of a new academic textbook about COVID-19 called, Vulnerable. It's available for a free download online. Coming up, after a regional update, the filmmaker Werner Herzog looks to the skies to find meaning here on Earth. The power of meteorites in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current and CBC Radio One.

[Music]

Werner Herzog on Fireball, his new film about the awe-inspiring power of meteors

Guests: Werner Herzog, Clive Oppenheimer

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from Werner Herzog's "Fireball"]

MG: The unmistakeable voice of Werner Herzog from the opening of his new film Fireball. It's his third film with the British scientists, Clive Oppenheimer. And it's a documentary that takes you on a journey around the world exploring the creative and destructive power of meteorites, how they have inspired scientists and people of faith, how they've shaped landscapes and human cultures. Fireball: Visitors from Darker Worlds is screening now as part of the Toronto International Film Festival. Werner Herzog and Clive Oppenheimer join me now. Gentlemen, hello.

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Hello.

WERNER HERZOG: Good morning to you.

MG: Werner Herzog, what was it like to be at that site in Mexico, which is in many ways, as you say in the film, a place where the world changed?

WERNER HERZOG: Well, it's completely unobtrusive. There's a great about 200 kilometres diameter, but there's nothing visible. Half of it is underwater into the Gulf of Mexico and the other half is only secondary signals ring semi-circle of senotes of freshwater reservoirs. And that's all there is. And only fairly recently in the 70s, it was verified that this must have been an impact crater caused by an asteroid about 65 million years ago.

MG: Clive Oppenheimer, what do we know about what happened when that asteroid hit the Earth 65 million years ago?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Everything that we know, of course, has to be reconstructed from indirect observations of of rocks, of geology around the world. And one of the first things that gave a clue to a cataclysmic event was a world wide layer enriched in the metal iridium found in many, many parts of the world, which could only have an indicator, an extra terrestrial source. And this was dated right at the boundary between the Cretaceous and Ternary, 64 and a half million years ago. And so there was a major search for a possible impact crater. And so, you know, today the story is written in the rocks at the impact site itself. This needs to be drilled. So there's been quite a lot of off shore drilling to look at the structure of the crater. But as far away as the northern U.S., you can find the impacts of this devastating impact and massive extinctions of fishes in lakes where there are huge earthquakes disrupted the ecosystem and indeed the signals are seen well worldwide.

WERNER HERZOG: The impact and the energy of hundreds of millions of atomic bombs, Hiroshima size will be thousands of millions of atomic bombs Hiroshima size. And tsunamis reached all the way to the to Canada from Mexico. Toronto probably was impacted by or hit by a tsunami that came from that far. And, of course, earthquakes a hundred times the magnitude of everything we have measured so far and on and on. So that was a big one.

MG: What is it about and this runs through the film, what is it, Werner, about the mythology that's wrapped up in meteorites that's so interesting to you?

WERNER HERZOG: Well, there are different mythologies. For example, the film ends with people in the Torres Strait Islands off of Meyer, and they believe that the souls of the departed soul, so to speak, ride on meteorites into the netherworld. For example, Mecca in the southeastern corner of the Kaaba, where millions of Pilgrims circumambulation pray. This embedded the so-called black stone, which with all probability is a meteorite. We cannot actually studied scientifically. That's a no no, not allowed because of religious reasons, but it has formed some not belief systems of Islam, but it's very venerated amongst the faithful and probably venerated a thousand years before Muhammad, the Prophet who founded Islam. So there's many, many, many things in historical events that all of a sudden gives legitimacy to the House of Hapsburg. And so it's a very fascinating bouquet of events and mythologies and historical shifts that we have received with this through meteorites.

MG: You mentioned witness. I mean, you have footage of the meteorite that slammed into an area in Russia in 2013, and it I mean, as you describe it, it looks like a sci fi film in some ways.

WERNER HERZOG: It does, yes, and I just name it. And we were lucky that so many dashboard cameras filmed it. It was actually we owe it to the times of Yeltsin when police was not paid, pensions were not paid, and police had to stop you and make a living by telling you you ran the traffic light. And we have about 25, 30 different recordings of it. It's wonderful stuff.

MG: Clive, what to you is most intrigued? There is a line in the film about how these meteorites in any way can be described as an organism, and it's the task of humanity to figure out their meaning. What to you is so interesting about them?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: I think it's that they they touch on so many topics in science and culture. There's research showing that meteorites have all kinds of organic molecules in them. Even approach protein has recently been discovered in a meteorite that fell to Earth from space. And so there is very serious research looking at how life may have been initiated with this, these ingredients brought from the cosmos. And that, of course, then raises the probability that life is elsewhere in the universe. They speak to our destiny. Well, another big impact in. Future. Well, this was another mass extinction. But I think, you know, in between that it's this this human fascination is, as we've said, through through time for meteorites, for shooting stars. They've had meaning. I we asked one of our contributors, a meteorite expert, who had written I'd seen it written that he'd observed the comet in the 1970s and he wrote that it terrified him. I asked you why. Why were you terrified by a comet? You. You're an astronomer. And he said it was just so scary. No, it was it wasn't there the day before and then it was there and. And it speaks to how in awe are of the night sky.

MG: Werner mentioned the Blackstone in Mecca and it's believed to be a meteorite and it holds enormous power and resonance within the Islamic tradition. What do we know, Clive, about that black stone where it perhaps came from, but also what its place is in that culture?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Well, we have a range of stories about it. One is that it was brought to Earth from heaven by the Angel Gabriel and given to Abraham to set in the wall of the first Kaaba. As Werner says, no scientific studies have ever been performed on on it. That hasn't stopped speculation. But I think, you know, fundamentally, the stories talk of it falling to Earth. So in all likelihood, it is meteoritic or associated with an impact. When meteorites hit the ground, they can also bake the rocks in Arabia, a lot sand might get melted. There's very, very beautiful desert glasses that you get where meteorites have struck. So I think in all likelihood, it's extraterrestrial, but I don't think we'll ever get an analysis of it.

MG: You travel around the world for this film Werner and one of the places that you end up in is Antarctica. Tell me about Antarctica and what it was like to be there.

WERNER HERZOG: Well, we met Clive in Antarctica years before for doing a film which has the title Encounters at the End of the World, but this part of the shoot, I did not participate. I was already editing at that time. And sometimes we would distribute tasks and Clive is a film maker himself, and we knew we would come back with wonderful footage. And it's probably the finest footage in the entire film that was shot by him.

MG: Clive, what was it like there?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: I've worked I've worked on a volcano Mount Arabis in Antarctica, where I met Werner in 2006. And I haven't I hadn't been back in Antarctica for three years after doing 13 field seasons down there with the U.S. Antarctic Program. So I was really overjoyed to go back to have the opportunity to go back. And on this occasion, somewhere, a very different part of the continent in the blue ice fields, up in the polar plateau at high elevation, where there is this extraordinary blue glacial ice with a very astonishing quality of light that's that's reflected in refracted in it. And when when you find a stone out there, it's a meteorite. It's not anywhere near where rocks are being eroded from the earth's crust. What you're finding is is a meteorite. And that, to me, was astonishing. I've never found a meteorite in my life. But you go out there and you find a stone and, you know, it's come from space. So a huge thrill.

MG: Well, there's this scene in the film where, I mean, this incredible aerial shot of the scientists who are on that glacier and then one of the figures that you can see begins to jump up and down. What happened there?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: So I'd Ibeen looking for meteorites with the group. This is with the South Korean Polar Research Institute, who kindly invited us to join their expedition. And I think there's an expertise in all things, and I know there is. And I wasn't finding anything and I wasn't finding anything. And other people were shouting, oh, look at this. So I really thought I could go the day without locating in any space rocks. And so when I saw one. And in fact, I saw two at the same time, I really was quite ecstatic. And. They. Well, one of them proved to be a very unusual meteorite. And there was a lot of excitement in the group of scientists. Yes, this could be one of one of their special ones. So it was unbelievably exciting.

WERNER HERZOG: Tthe one you found alive was the largest of the entire season. It, of course, it looks like in movies, things like that, moments like that are always fabricated. But we swear a solemn oath, the camera proves it and shows it. It was really Clive.And actually, there was this scene, which is not in the film anymore, where they celebrate in toast him afterwards in the headquarters, in the site. And they pop champagne and they toasted wine and dine him.

MG: What was it like, Clive, to hold that? I mean, no one knows where it came from, what it is. I mean, what is that like?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Well, you're touching the oldest relics from our solar system. More than four and a half billion years old is the oldest thing I've ever, ever touched. And and it's come from out that. So it's a feeling it's hard to describe. Firstly, I guess I had a feeling of relief that I found some thing and the camera was rolling. So that was great. You know, I suppose I sort of very slight feeling, as in anyone seen me. Could I just slip this in my pocket and avoid it having to go back you know to the Koreans for laboratory analysis. But no, it was just an extraordinary thrill, a really extraordinary thrill.

MG: As a filmmaker, Werner, I mean in in this film you have examples of meteor strikes in popular culture in the way that they've been depicted in movies. Things like Deep Impact from 1998. As a filmmaker, what do you find so compelling about those images in the way that meteor strikes are depicted in popular culture?

WERNER HERZOG: Well, it is always a sense of fantasy in the sense of awe. And, of course, what Hollywood tries to create a sense of panic as well. But I'm not into that and Clive is not into that. But I think science and filmmaking has one common thing, it's a sense of discovery, a sense of awe. If that is not there, you will never make a real good film.

MG: Werner, you were born in Munich during the Second World War. Do you think that some of ,I mean, there's a long history, yes. In filmmaking, but in reality of things falling from the sky balls of fire and what have you. Did that upbringing shape the way that you react to those scenes of destruction in the film?

WERNER HERZOG: No, not really. I didn't notice much because I was only two weeks old, 14 days old, when there was some cardboard bomb in Munich and my mother fled into the mountains. So I grew up in the mountains. I remember my earliest memories of my mother ripping my older brother and me out of bed in the middle of the night and rushing up the hill next to where we lived. And she said, you have to see this city of Rosenheim is burning. It was in the last days of the war and the entire sky was glowing orange and red. It's a little bit like the pictures you see from San Francisco since yesterday. And I do believe Hiroshima would have been much more something coming much closer to this sense of devastation coming from the sky and this utter cataclysm of an entire city and over 100,000 people are incinerated on the spot. So that came probably closer to what you are trying to describe, these events of war and bomb being ominous, things dropping out of the sky.

MG: There's a moment in the film where Clive is asking a scientist about her research and then in the midst of this Werner there's something that compels you to speak up. Have a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from "Fireball"].

MG: I'm not stardust, Werner, I'm Bavarian?

WERNER HERZOG: Yes, correct. Contrary to all the evidence. But, no, it only shows that there's humour in the film. And I think all my films have quite a good quantity of humour in it. Of course, there are other funny and beautiful moments in it, in particular in Mexico. For example when we show the small beach resort town of Chicxulub and it's the epicentre. It's the very centre of this asteroid that hit our planet. And I'm saying in my commentary, we'll be travelling through this town. It is so God forsaken. You want to cry. We are playing in the soundtrack, a song, a very popular song which makes you cry. If you listen to the song alone, it makes you cry already. So, of course, there are very funny moments of it.

MG: The two of you.

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: I remember one time having, we ate in a restaurant, Werner, and the dessert menu advertised Bavarian mouse. And that was an indication for me that Bavarians are really something quite unique.

MG: The two of you worked really well together and you've made these three films as collaborators. What is it that you like working about with Clive?

WERNER HERZOG: Well, we have so many things in common. Worldviews, part of the world view is is very similar. And his approach to the unknown is very similar and his sense of awe is very similar. So and of course, he has his his specific way of storytelling and I have mine. And they somehow correspond to each other very well. And you see how seamlessly two voices intertwining into one film, into one story, into one narration. So it's very easy to work with him. And of course, he brings his expertise in addition to the common work that I don't have and I bring certain things in it that he doesn't have. So it's a very natural collaboration.

MG: Clive, what is it about Werner Herzog's vision as a filmmaker that you connect with?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Well, I admire his films, both the narrative and the documentary. It's as Werner says, it's been it's been a natural collaboration. For me, I think what what has been very special is not working in scripted documentary is this would not appeal to me. I love the way that we work. We we have a pretty clear concept of what we want to do. And we we bring our different skill sets together. I think, you know, it probably helps that I would you say that I you know, I've never been to film schools. I can come and make all kinds of mistakes in my approach. But it's the way that we know what we're after. We both we both know what we're trying to do. And I've learnt a phenomenal amount. Working and collaborating with. It's it's been it's lit up my life. I mean, I have to say no. I spent most of my career working as a volcanologist. And so the time we spent on the road making films and in the editing studio, it's been very, very special.

MG: Just a couple of things before I let you go. You talked Werner about what awe and wonder. You've been making films for a long time. How do you keep that sense of wonder and that sense of awe.

WERNER HERZOG: Well, it's as simple as that. I have it in me. Otherwise I wouldn't be a film maker. And you see, I would be a cow in the field. They don't have this sense of awe.

MG: It's as simple as that?

WERNER HERZOG: It is as simple as that. Yes.

MG: How have you been spending the pandemic? You're somebody who. Who I would imagine has a sense of wanderlust, is on the move a lot and trying to feed that sense of wonder and awe and now we've been stuck wherever we happen to be. How have you been spending the time.

WERNER HERZOG: Well, it doesn't affect me too much. Of course I had to cancel two film premieres in the workshop in the Colombian Jungle in Amazonia. So of course it affects me. But you can put me in a deep cave without anyone, as long I have something to write, I would write and I would read. That's what I'm doing now, I'm writing.

MG: Do you worry about the future of cinema? Do you think that this time is going to change cinema? I watched this film on a laptop and I should see it on a gigantic screen, but we can't go into the cinemas to watch it on big screens anymore. Do you worry about how this will change cinema?

WERNER HERZOG: I'm not nostalgic, but this movement from big screens at theatres to streaming platforms has started years before we had the pandemic. And of course, the pandemic isn't such a extraordinary thing in the history of the human race. We have had it many times and much, much worse than that. So I think I think it will not change everything. It will not change the nature of storytelling. We have stories. Storytelling is in the human race since primordial time, since tens of thousands of years. People gathering around a campfire and telling stories so that will not be taken from us, neither by a pandemic or the streaming platform, you just name it.

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: I think that the, you know, the way films are received has to change with the platform when you are watching it on a on a laptop. I was at a conference in Switzerland three weeks ago virtually, and I'm at a conference making while I'm making pancakes for the kids. You know, it's not the same kind of attention to going to a movie theatre and seeing a film on a big screen. So I do worry a bit about just how the impact that film can have on people watching on smaller devices and outside of a social setting.

MG: There is a humbling nature to watching a film like this, in part because these things fall from the sky and they're out of our control. Clive, are we waiting for another inevitable impact of something large that will come our way and wipe us out or change humanity?

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Well, luckily we've got a we've got a lot of people looking at that and we to discuss that in the film. There's nothing big coming at us anytime soon. You know, these these objects are being tracked near Earth. Objects attract their big telescopes on Earth, a track with telescopes in Earth orbit. And so, you know, the hope is if, if and when something larger is coming our way, these these are on orbits a bit like, you know, they're on elliptical orbit. So they're not they're not just barrelling straight into us. We'll we'll catch them many orbits around the sun before they're going to strike us. And that that will allow time to come up with a solution. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

MG: Werner, do you worry about that?

WERNER HERZOG: No, I don't worry. And we should not plan and think and prepare ourselves for a big impact. Let's just live life at its fullest. And if something, if a sucker is coming, so we'll be transformed into star dust.

MG: Werner Herzog, Clive Oppenheimer, a great pleasure to speak with you both. Thank you.

CLIVE OPPENHEIMER: Thank you.

WERNER HERZOG: Thank you.

MG: Werner Herzog and Clive Oppenheimer. Their film, Fireball: Visitors from Darker Worlds is screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival, and it's coming to Apple TV+ on the 13th of November. That will do it for The Current for today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio one, it's Q Tom Power, joined by Reba McEntire, one of the best selling country musicians of all time. She has a podcast that is going to be debuting in the next few weeks as well. She talks to Tom about how it took two decades of recording and performing before she broke through to the mainstream. She certainly has done that. The great Reba McEntire coming up on CBC Radio one. If you missed anything on the program, you can get caught up through the CBC Listen app. Find it wherever you get your apps. It's free and it includes the show. It includes other CBC radio programs, CBC Podcasts, and, of course, streams from CBC Music as well. The CBC Listen app wherever you get your apps or through the website at cbc.ca. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: theme]

Sept. 15, 2020 episode transcript

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