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The Current Transcript for October 25, 2019

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Today is Friday and as always, we are on climate strike. We are doing this because our future is at stake.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's the world's most famous climate team, Greta Thunberg rallying thousands in Edmonton last week. She's speaking today in Vancouver, where youth aren't only climate striking, they're suing the federal government over climate change. First up, why Canadian teenagers are taking their climate fight to court. Then:

SOUNDCLIP

I am told to get a gun by sources. I move out of my place. I did put all my sensitive reporting material in a safety deposit box and it was quite nerve wracking.

DM: That's the kind of threats and intimidation Ronan Farrow says he faced when he began digging into sexual abuse allegations against Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein. Now the Pulitzer Prise winning journalist has an explosive new book about powerful men and the cover ups they orchestrate. That's in a half an hour. Oh, and one more thing. CBC Radio has revealed the new permanent host of this program. Well check in with Matt Galloway in a few minutes. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

Kids suing the government for climate action

Guests: Ira Reinhart Smith, Joseph Harvey

SOUNDCLIP

[Demonstrators cheering]

DM: Canadian young people have been marching in the streets for months trying to force governments into action on climate change. Now they're taking their fight into the courts. Today, a lawsuit will be filed by 15 young people from across the country. They're suing the federal government for violating their charter rights. Ira Rienhart Smith is one of the plaintiffs. He's 15 years old and lives in Nova Scotia. But he's in Vancouver today for a climate strike attended by teen climate activist Greta Thunberg and Joseph Arvay is one of the lawyers on the case. He's a constitutional lawyer and partner at Arvay Finley LLP in Vancouver. We reached him in Sudbury, Ontario. Hello to you both.

IRA REINHART SMITH: Hello.

JOSEPH ARVAY: Good morning.

DM: Good morning, IRA Rinehart. Smith, let's start with you. Why did you want to be part of this court case?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Well, I've been organizing a numbers of Fridays for future rallies where I live and talking to multiple local politicians. But while my actions were helpful for me, I like to feel like I was here doing something. I felt like it was not it was not like bringing about enough change. That's why when I heard about this lawsuit, I was so excited. I felt that this was like a really great way for me to tell the world, like how I was feeling. So I just felt that this was the best way for me to bring about what I wanted to see in Canada.

DM: When you told your friends and family that you were going to sue the government, how did they react?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Everyone's been really supportive. I have a really great family. We're always outside in nature doing different things. And I've been part of this for quite a while. And so it was all my decision and they totally respected it. And it's just been great.

DM: You say you've been outside in nature as you were growing up. How when did you start worrying about climate change?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Climate change was always at the back of my mind. I always knew as a thing. I've been very well educated from my family, my parents, about climate change. But I really started to get worried about it about a little bit after Christmas when I attended my first Fridays for such a rally. And so I started hearing mostly things that I had never really heard before, like the IPCC report and the huge deadline we had looming over our heads. And so I talked to some that organized and I was appalled at some of the things that I was hearing. So I decide to start my own rallies and things as yet kind of escalated from there.

DM: And what about in Nova Scotia? Have you feel like you noticed the impacts of climate change at all?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Oh, definitely, yes. In Nova Scotia, it's a coastal province. So we're always surrounded by water. There's- with rising temperatures, with rising ocean temperatures and rising sea levels. The storms are becoming much more powerful. Just last month, we had Hurricane Dorian sweep through the province and we lost power for five days. And we couldn't go to school for a few days. Like those are just things that are going become more and more frequent because of climate change.

DM: Let's bring the lawyer into this, Joseph Arvey. Can you spell out the legal basis for this case for us?

JOSEPH ARVAY: Sure. Well, we have basically three ways that we are challenging the government. The first to fall under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and say, section seven of the charter, which guarantees everybody their life, liberty and security, the person. And we say that the government's actions and omissions put at serious risk the very lives and the fundamental liberties and the physical and psychological security of of kids and youth. And we say that's enough to constitute a violation of the charter. And we also bring you claim under the equality rights provisions of the charter, because we say that the government's discriminates against kids and youth based on their age, both because they as young people are more vulnerable to the health risks that climate change brings. And also the fact that this present generation of adults are our leaving our kids with a a situation where they are going to be harmed, not just now, but they're going to inherit the problems that the present generation of adults has created as they developed into adults.

DM: Ira Rienhart Smith, I wonder, can you give me some specific policies and actions that you think the federal government should have taken, should have taken, to protect your rights when it comes to climate change?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Well, it's that's a hard complicated question, because there's many different ways that the government could be used to mitigate climate change. But the government has not just this government, the governments in the past, they've made lots of climate promises, but not a single one has been kept. So maybe keeping some of their climate promises would've been helpful.

DM: Well, for example, the last government has launched and started a carbon tax that would be keeping a promise. No?

IRA REINHART SMITH: That'd be keeping a promise. But for their emissions goals, what they're what the goals they're hoping to keep, they're not in line with what is needed to happen. And so none of the promises, even though no promises have been kept up so far. So we're not kind of hoping for those things to happen and we're going to take them to court and hope that we speed things up.

JOSEPH ARVAY: If I can help out here. I mean, the government in the last 20 years have made promises that they haven't kept. They've set targets that they'd never met. And we set out in our claims many instances in how the government of Canada has, by the exercise that both its executive and legislative authority, contributed in a significant way to achieve a GHG emissions. And [unintelligible] the climate catastrophe that we say as it is already here and certainly going to get worse.

DM: Joseph Arvey, a Quevec environmental group, youth group brought a class action against the federal government on this same issue on climate change, which was rejected by a superior court in July. What's different about this case?

JOSEPH ARVAY: Our case is different. First of all, it's not a class action, although this case is being brought by 15 young people, on behalf of themselves as well as on behalf of all children and youth in Canada, present and future generations. And the way we have presented the case, we believe, avoids some of the pitfalls that the Quebec litigation face because it was a class action. And I think we;re confident that this is the right way of doing it.

DM: It's this wave of climate litigation is happening around the world. Joseph Arvey, a U.S. court, heard a similar case earlier this year, Juliana versus United States. What sort of precedent do you see in that case?

JOSEPH ARVAY: What we see it as actually very helpful. Obviously, every jurisdiction has its own laws and constitution. But the Juliana case is one that we're not only following closely, but we are working with the lawyers in that case who are giving us, you know, the benefit of their own advice and experience in doing that case. I mean, the American constitution and the Canadian constitution is not that different when it comes to this issue.

DM: Let me ask you, Joseph. I mean, you've been involved in in cases that such as aboriginal rights, cases that take years and decades to to resolve. The climate activists are saying that there needs to be climate action now. Isn't the justice system a time consuming way to to try to get climate action?

JOSEPH ARVAY: Well, it certainly is. But we are hopeful that we will be able to have this case proceed through the courts in a fairly expeditious way. We're hoping that the government of Canada is not going to set up any roadblocks that is going to delay actually having the merits of this case heard. There's no reason to think that we can't be in a trial and say a year from now. And that's pretty fast, insofar as the justice system goes.

DM: Joseph Arvey, you say you're focussing on the federal government here in court. Why not take on the big polluters or the fossil fuel industry?

JOSEPH ARVAY: Well, that might be next. But, you know, it's taking one step at a time. And right now, the federal government is the government that is the most responsible for GHG emissions in Canada. And the government that is the most capable of addressing the problem. Obviously, the problem of climate change comes from many sources and there's many different ways of addressing it. Obviously, there's we there's political ways and there's educational ways. But we say that, given the government's failure to come to grips with climate change in a meaningful way, we say the courts have a very important role to play in this fight.

DM: You say a suit against the fossil fuel industry might be next. I mean, in New York state has taken Exxon Mobil to court, charging that the company lied to shareholders, they lied to the public about the consequences of climate change. I know that there are cities in Canada that are considering that action. Are you involved in those talks as well?

JOSEPH ARVAY: I'm involved to some extent in that matter as well. But that's not something I can talk about right now.

DM: Ira Reinhart Smith, let me bring it back to you. What do you hope for for this lawsuit?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Well, I hope I hope, of course, that we win that we bring the attention of climate change to Canada, to the world. What we're asking for as a group is a science based climate recovery plan. So that what we're basically asking is that Canada has to reduce their emissions and also implement carbon sequestration plan that will take the carbon into the atmosphere, because currently we can't deal with the carbon that we have in the atmosphere. So we have to take it out as well and has to be based on the current science at the time. So it can't be something that they're saying will work because we've been letting them say that for far too long and needs to be something that the current scientists that signed it globally are saying will work.

DM: And to you're going to be attending the climate march in Vancouver today, right?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Yes.

DM: You have gotten, teenagers around the world have gotten, so much attention now with the climate strikes. Why do you think that the court is about is a way to get more?

IRA REINHART SMITH: Well, because when I talk to the government, when I talk to local politicians, they all listen to me. They're all very nice. But I don't feel that they have any huge responsibility to actually bring it up and try to implement change. So when we take it to the courts, they are forced to listen to us. And they have to take action if we win this lawsuit. There's no it depends on what they want to do it. If we win the lawsuit, then they have to do what the court is going to tell them to do.

DM: Well, my thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this today.

IRA REINHART SMITH: Thank you.

JOSEPH ARVAY: Thanks.

DM: That is Joseph Arvay is a constitutional lawyer with Arvay Findlay LLP. He was in Sudbury and Ire Rienhart Smith is a 15 year old climate activist from Nova Scotia. He's in Vancouver. We requested comment on this case from Environment in Climate Change Canada, and we received the following statement from Press Secretary Sabrina Kim. Quote: "Young people are pushing their governments for a more sustainable future. We hear them and all of the Canadians who sent a clear message this election that tackling climate change is a clear priority, that they want this parliament to work on. We will continue to advance ambitious climate action to ensure future generations inherit a cleaner and more prosperous future". End quote.

[Music]

New host

Guest: Matt Galloway

DM: You might have heard there's some big news around here, The Current has a new host. Matt Galloway is leaving CBC Radio's Toronto morning program Metro Morning to take over the reigns of this show. He joins me now. Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: You were trending yesterday on Twitter, kind of exploded, one user wrote who is Matt Galloway? So you might be a household name here in Toronto, but for the rest of Canada, who is Matt Galloway?

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a very good question. Something I try and figure out all the time. I am 49 year old man live here in Toronto. Grew up at the side of the city of Toronto. I am curious about everything. I read as much as I possibly can. Listen to everything. I don't have as much time as I'd like to watch things on screens. I have a couple of young kids. I love running. I bake bread. I ride a bicycle. I'm interested in the world and I'm interested in meeting people and telling stories.

DM: When did you start at CBC?

MATT GALLOWAY: 20 some years ago, I've hosted Metro Morning for almost 10 years, hosted the afternoon program here at CBC Toronto for five years before that, and did a million things in between.

DM: Bake bread. Yes. I didn't know you bake bread.

MATT GALLOWAY: I love baking. Early, early this morning, I was looking in the fridge at my sour dough loaves and will put them into the oven later on.

DM: Sour dough. That's no small feat. You got to keep the sour dough going for a really, was is it? It's like a live.

MATT GALLOWAY: It was a project of mine for a year to learn how to bake bread. Yes. I love it.

DM: The listeners of Metro Morning know you're a foodie, too?

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the great things about food is that it opens the doors to other cultures. And so in cities across country, small towns as well. I will go and just eat my way into different places.

DM: The Current, the big show, what stories are you hoping to tell?

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm hoping to tell stories that I haven't heard before. Stories that will connect this country. You know, I mean, check-up this as well; national radio programs on CBC have this amazing potential to bring the country together. And we're really split up place right now. I mean, the election, you will have seen this during the election. You see this in the map. But also just in the conversations that you have with people, it's like people are talking to each other and not listening to each other. And I love the idea of using a show like this to help explain ourselves to each other.

DM: As far as as Metro Morning goes, I mean, you've done some remarkable stories on Metro Morning, really pulling this city together. Are there any standouts for you?

MATT GALLOWAY: That's what we do, like 13 interviews a morning. I remember years ago we did a story about a woman who she was here talking about her brother. Her brother had been shot and killed. And the people that he was with dropped him essentially off at the hospital, but didn't report what had happened. They knew who did this and they didn't report those people's names to the police. And she came in and she called them out. She's trying to figure out who had killed her brother. And she talked about how friends wouldn't do this. And it was one of the most heart breaking interviews you could imagine. And we were speaking about this and I got a note from somebody who was talking and listening to this. And he said that he was making tea at the time and it picked up the kettle from the stove and was walking over to pour it into the cup and stood and listened to this woman's pain on the radio until the kettle burned his hand. He dropped the kettle. The kettle smashes on the ground because he couldn't move because this woman was telling her story. I mean, the opportunity to kind of have people tell you something you don't know is a really powerful one. And the privilege of telling those kind of stories is a really weighty one. That's one of those moments that just stands out to me. We've done a lot of fun stuff, too, and gone out into the city and done shows and go trains and street cars and things like that. It's the miracle of radio that you can get out and tell those stories in an easy way.

DM: We've got a couple more seconds left here. So I want to just do a quick lightning round.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness.

DM: Favourite musician.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right now, Brittany Howard, this woman from the Bank of Alabama Shakes. She has a voice as big as a barn.

DM: Oh, my goodness. I had a chance to see her live in concert. My goodness, what a voice. Favourite place in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: Somewhere that's really quiet. I can think of a half dozen places that I go. There's a path that up near where I grew up, outside the city of Toronto, in the country, middle of nowhere. We would walk up there and you hear absolutely nothing. And it's to me, the opposite of where I live right now, which is in the middle of the city. So I like peace and quiet.

DM: This is outside of Newmarket?

MATT GALLOWAY: Yes, outside. Up near in the Beaver Valley in the beautiful Kimberley, Ontario.

DM: Dream interview subject. Who do you want to interview?

MATT GALLOWAY: That's hard. Somebody- big names are big names. I want to talk to somebody who's going to tell me something I don't know.

DM: Come on. Give me a name. Any name.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right now?

DM: You sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Like everybody else, I would love to pair someone like Greta Thunberg up with somebody who is so opposed to what she's saying. And listen to them talk to each other.

DM: You start on January 6th on The Current. I'm guessing you're going to get a chance to interview some of those big names.

MATT GALLOWAY: I hope so. I have a dream job and I don't leave the job that I'm doing now. You know, fleeing from the studio. This is an amazing opportunity. And I'm really, really excited about the possibility and potential of it.

DM: Congratulations.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you, Duncan.

DM: Matt Galloway is the new host of The Current. He takes over the helm on January 6th.

[Music: Theme].

DM: Okay. The CBC News is next, then it took years of investigating with the rich and powerful putting up roadblocks at every turn. But when journalist Ronan Farrow finally broke the story about women accusing Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein of sexual assault, it changed everything. Ronan Farrow talks about his ordeal in our next half hour. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

Catch and Kill

Guest: Ronan Farrow

DM: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme

DM: Still to come, migrants are finding new and dangerous ways to get into England. That story in half an hour. But first, Catch and Kill.

SOUNDCLIP

Ronan Farrow walked out of NBC News after working on the Weinstein story. And within two months, an incredible article, The New Yorker that not only won a Pulitzer, but helped trigger a massive social and cultural reckoning that continues to this day.

DM: Not every journalist is credited with starting a massive social and cultural reckoning, but that's how MSNBC host Chris Hayes describes Ronan Farrow and his investigation into disgraced film producer Harvey Weinstein.

SOUNDCLIP

It is the kind of journalism that you want to do as a journalist. And everyone who works in this business should want to facilitate. Of course, there's a reason it took so long. The true story about Weinstein to be told the many allegations of him to stay locked in a vault. And that's because time and again, the path of least resistance for those with power was to not cross Weinstein or his army of friends and lawyers.

DM: Ronan Farrow eventually did find his way down that difficult path when he brought his reporting on Weinstein to The New Yorker magazine. But along the way, he found something else; a disturbing story of power and influence in the American media. Ronan Farrow tells that story in his new book, Catch and Kill: Lies, Spies and a Conspiracy to Protect Predators. And Ronan Farrow joins us from Boston. Hello.

RONAN FARROW: It's good to be here. Thank you for having me.

DM: Ronan Farrow, why do you think of Chris Hayes statement about you, your work and the company he still works for?

RONAN FARROW: You know, Catch and Kill is about patterns of corporate conduct and legal practices at corporations that cover up problems and sweep them under the rug and pay out victims of abuse to make them go away and shut up instead of actually removing potential abusers from power. And it's about how, in a media context, when those patterns play out, sometimes they can make a company vulnerable to exactly the phenomenon Chris Hayes was talking about: yielding to powerful interests who want to silence the truth. And it is such a hard thing we both notice as journalists to call out your bosses for that kind of behaviour. And what Chris Hayes did there, it was incredibly brave and incredibly important. And it mirrors a whole camera of people at a working level at it at NBC who are right now calling for accountability in the same way.

DM: I'm going to ask you about NBC in a bit. But let's go back to the start. I mean, there were whispers about the behaviour of Harvey Weinstein for a long time and other reporters who had tried to take a run at cracking that story. How did you first get on onto the Weinstein sexual abuse story?

RONAN FARROW: So I had been working as a an investigative correspondent at NBC, and I had a series called Under Cover in the exaggerated manner of Morning TV, which was about stories that don't usually make it into the headlines and had proposed for that a story about Hollywood and the dark side of Hollywood and was going to be several different topics. One of which was the Hollywood casting couch. And very quickly, that became an investigation into many serious allegations about Harvey Weinstein specifically that went, as it turns out, far beyond just the casting couch, which is in and of itself a serious topic. But this from the beginning was about allegations of rape and sexual assault.

DM: What kind of support did you initially get for that?

RONAN FARROW: Well, from the get go, they behaved in a way that seemed unjournalistic. They were telling us to hit pause. To put it on the back burner. And then that gradually escalated to a full on order to stop to not take a single call on the topic, to cancel interviews with rape victims. And when we didn't comply with that, both of our careers ultimately suffered serious blows.

DM: As you were beginning this investigation, you reached out to your sister, Dylan. Why you do that?

RONAN FARROW: My sister Dylan had raised an allegation of sexual assault against our father, the director, Woody Allen. And she had been incredibly brave in repeating that allegation consistently from the time she was 7 years old through adulthood. She's in her 30s by the time this plot plays out in Catch and Kill. And, you know, as I am struggling as a reporter to confront these issues that have remained buried for so long, I'm also undergoing a personal evolution where in my own family this has been a painful issue that I've tried to avoid. And, you know, I eventually come to an understanding that even though there's no factual link between her case and the cases I was reporting on, it did give me a deeper understanding to have someone I cared about affected profoundly by this issue, I did come to understand that she was being courageous by sticking to her guns.

DM: Just for the listeners who don't know I'm here. You're the son of, I can't imagine listeners who don't know, but you're the son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen. Initially, you didn't support your sister. You said you tried to avoid those allegations against Woody Allen, your father, which he has denied. Did that spur this investigation for you?

RONAN FARROW: No, but I would say that it enhanced my understanding of this issue and how it gets covered up.

DM: How so?

RONAN FARROW: I think for anyone who knows someone who's been profoundly affected by this kind of trauma, and particularly who's gone up against a powerful person with the capacity to manipulate the media, Woody Allen, this has been confirmed on the record through multiple investigative reporters, multiple outlets hired, you know, an army of private investigators to smear cops on the case, to try to dig up dirt on a judge in the case. You know, the media was very much in the thrall of a powerful high profile guy. These are parallels that I only reflected on later. But I do think on some level, having seen her experiences play out, gave me a deepened understanding of just how much justice gets miscarried in these cases.

DM: There was an attempt to paint many of the accusers as crazy.

RONAN FARROW: Yes.

DM: Well, what was your experience when you were talking with them?

RONAN FARROW: Well, you know, every person is very different and has a different story, but it is one of the oldest plays in the book to write off people who speak about these difficult issues, and women in particular, as crazy, as unstable, as hysterical. And you know, what's interesting is over the course of this plot, they're getting called those things. And then as I investigate and find that their claims are actually checking out and they are dead on in their assessments, I get called some of those things. And so while I can't claim to understand at all what it's like to be a woman in our culture who gets labelled with those misogynistic terms, I can say that I was in proximity to it and understand how pervasive that problem is.

DM: When you were working with NBC and you started to look into sexual assault at the time, you were working with host Matt Lauer on The Today Show. What did what did you think of them at the time?

RONAN FARROW: Well, he shows up in this story as something of a mentor. And I talk about, you know, being at a low point in my career and being extremely grateful that he's very supportive of the kind of tough investigative reporting that I wanted to do and was kind of, you know, mentoring me into doing more infill and anchoring on the show. And so my own personal experiences with Matt Lauer were, you know, positive and about his support.

DM: What did you think when he found out that you were looking into sexual assault in Hollywood?

RONAN FARROW: Well, I don't speculate on his state of mind, but, you know, I describe the interactions where I first began talking about that with him. And readers can judge for themselves.

DM: You describe his eyes snapping back.

RONAN FARROW: It certainly seemed like a theme that he noticed when I rattled off the list of stories I was working on.

DM: During your investigation, Harvey Weinstein started reaching out to a number of the women that he allegedly assaulted. Why do you think he did that?

RONAN FARROW: Harvey Weinstein did a lot more than reach out to women with allegations against him. He hired an army of private investigators, including the Israeli firm Black Cube, which deployed agents using false identities and front companies and cover stories to, you know, actively gaslight and deceive women with allegations.

DM: Tell us about Black Cube. I mean, what they were a surveillance operation, what kind of- You described being put under surveillance yourself during the investigation of this story.

RONAN FARROW: So I'm ultimately able to trace back a trail of clues from some of the strange things I was seeing to confirm and get all the receipts and contracts related to a deal that Harvey Weinstein had struck with a number of private investigation firms. But in particular, this one Black Cube, which, you know, boasts that it's staffed by former members of the Mossad and other Israeli military and intelligence entities, that it offers these kinds of combat hardened operatives who are very skilled in deception. And in this case, Harvey Weinstein's contract with them explicitly ordered them to obtain the work in progress book of an actress with an allegation against him, Rose McGowan. - They believed that that book was going to contain this allegation of hers - and to surveil reporters and try to stop the publication of stories about Harvey Weinstein and through subcontractors. A lot of the plot revolves around some interesting and unexpected developments related to two guys from the former Soviet Union, a Russian guy and a Ukrainian guy who are kind of on my tail. You know, he does exactly that. They do a lot of chasing around reporters and use some tactics that are legally questionable, including eventually obtaining my phone GPS. data and trailing me to discover where I was taking the story after it was killed at my TV network.

DM: What you describe being tailed by these surveillance operatives and at one point you put evidence in a safety deposit box and say with a note, you know, should anything happen to me? Make sure this information is released. Were you seriously worried that at that point in the middle of that investigation that something was going to happen to you?

RONAN FARROW: It's important to note that the sources in this story were going through. You know, they were targeted. They were gasslit. They were also coming forward with stories that were profoundly re-traumatizing to tell. So, you know, I think my own experiences pale in comparison to that. And also pale in comparison to what journalists go through in so many parts of the world. If you're in Pakistan, if you're in Russia, you often are just dead the next day if you try to report on powerful interests. That said, you know, it is scary. And it is worth discussing that in North America where, you know, both of our countries have robust protections of the free press. You still see these kinds of exotic and underhanded tactics thrown at reporters. And I am told to get a gun by sources, a move out of my place. I did put all my sensitive reporting material in a safety deposit box and it was quite nerve wracking.

DM: What did other sources tell you about other ways that Harvey Weinstein was trying to stop you and NBC from running this story?

RONAN FARROW: Well, one of the major trails of clues that I follow in the book is Harvey Weinstein's collaboration with The National Enquirer. And he was working with them very closely. And, you know, we got the contract and documentation on this as well to dig up dirt on his opponents and secretly record people who might say unflattering things about his accusers and things of that nature. And, you know, at the same time, The National Enquirer is revving up its machine and pursuing more and more passionately claims about Matt Lauer. They run one story after another about Matt Lauer and start calling one employee of NBC News after another, asking about Matt Lauer. And they obtained the resumé of the woman who ultimately gets Matt Lauer fired. You know, so this is a situation where all of these secrets at this network were under threat of exposure. And that's a lot of people knowing about Matt Lauer misconduct allegations for years. I talked to senior executives who knew years before he was fired and also a wider pattern of secret settlements to conceal misconduct allegations both about Lauer and about others in senior leadership positions at this network. And the point I would make there is this is bigger than any one chain of executives. It's bigger than any one company. This is about, in both of our countries, the patterns of corporate cover up tactics that are used to keep alleged predators in power.

DM: What explanations did NBC News give to you as to why it was starting to pull away from the reporting that you were doing? Now, this is all before any of this was published of course.

RONAN FARROW: Of course. And at the time, they were saying things like, well, we're worried about tortious interference, which is a legal doctrine that refers to interfering with someone's contracts. And, you know, it's really typically something that comes into play when you're, you know, a business competitor of someone and you're trying to get their employees to break their contracts to benefit you and to hurt that person's business. It does not typically come into play in the context of legal judgments against American news outlets who are in good faith, pursuing a story and talking to sources who happen to have nondisclosure agreements because they've settled with Harvey Weinstein, for instance, to conceal sexual assault allegations. So this was a case where, you know, I lay out at least 15 secret calls that previously NBC News had denied. Now they acknowledged between senior executives there and Harvey Weinstein. He and his lawyers are making this argument. They're then repeating this argument to me and my producer.

DM: Eventually, I mean, despite you, you felt like you had the sources to go with the story, but eventually you decide to go with The New Yorker. Why did you do that?

RONAN FARROW: The executives of NBC News told us to take the story elsewhere.

DM: And what was your reaction when they told you that?

RONAN FARROW: Absolute shock and independent. They independently told this to me and to my producer. You know, wouldn't it be a great Vanity Fair piece? Wouldn't it be a great New York magazine piece if you want to take it somewhere else, go with God. And it was still frightening and uncertain because I think everyone on every side of this realized it would be a scandal once the story came out somewhere else while I was working at NBC News. You know, I was on NBC as NBC News investigative correspondent Ronan Farrow two days before the first Harvey Weinstein New Yorker story broke. And people did find it strange and it was very rapidly a scandal. But even after taking it out of the door there was a period of weeks where I had no news organization. The New Yorker hadn't yet said yes to it. I was paying out of pocket to continue to do interviews myself. And thank God the sources were so brave and hung in there with me through these ups and downs and jerking them around. So really all credit to them. But, you know, this was a situation where the story was sent out into the cold. And it's only thanks to those sources and to the brave journalists at The New Yorker who rescued it, that we're having this conversation now.

DM: It caused such a huge sensation, possibly something that you couldn't have predicted at that time. I wonder when you look at how NBC reacted in the days after you published your story, what did you think of their public explanation of why they didn't share it?

RONAN FARROW: Well, the reaction is fascinating to watch, and in many ways, mirrors. You know, I've now done reporting of this kinds on a number of institutions. And I obviously, as you know, the publisher of The National Enquirer is a major focus of the book. And you see some of the same deceptive tactics, too. I reveal in this book and this is something NBC News has confirmed, that they hired a Wikipedia whitewasher after the story came out to remove references to the Weinstein and Lauer scandals from the pages of all of these NBC executives. And to this day, Wikipedia is largely stripped clean of any references to this scandal. And you see this fascinating push and pull playing out in those edit pages on Wikipedia where real editors who are just crowd sourced are saying there's corporate spin being done to these pages. We're losing the truth. It's slipping away. This is so egregious. But you have a paid operation to strip that information out and it ultimately prevails.

DM: To be clear, eventually you did learn that one of the reasons NBC didn't go with your story had to do with Today Show host Matt Lauer. What happened there?

RONAN FARROW: Well, multiple sources in the book, both at the National Enquirer and at NBC, talk about a threat being delivered. And we also have NBC is denial of that in there, that senior leadership knew that there was a threat to expose more of the Lauer information. But what we do know, as I alluded to before, is that the Enquirer was already exposing more and more about Matt Lauer, was intensely focussed about Matt Lauer, had pulled a file of killed stories on Matt Lauer in the same timeframe. And more than that, that, you know, this was a company as it was arguing that its journalists should not report on secret sexual harassment, settlements, was enforcing and brokering its own identical settlements. And, you know, the book hopefully is not just a cautionary tale about NBC News, but a cautionary tale about what happens in our profession when we are not transparent and accountable and when we sweep serious and newsworthy problems under the rug.

DM: In your book, you talk about the former employee of NBC who alleged that that Matt Lauer raped her while they were covering the 2014 Sochi Olympics. Matt Lauer has told Variety that any acts with that woman were completely consensual. What do you think of his denial that he forced her to have sex with him?

RONAN FARROW: This book is very meticulously fact checked and every denial is in there loud and clear. And, you know, I will let readers decide for themselves. Well, all I can say is that the facts are very carefully interrogated and laid out there. And she, I think, somewhat persuasively says, look, whatever happened before and after that night, whether he thought it was flirting with him, however he interpreted my texts where I was a junior employee bred for my job is the narrative she gives. And, you know, I tried to sound as enthusiastic as possible when he wanted subsequent sexual contact. You know, she says regardless of all of that, the incident in question involved her being too drunk to consent and then saying no repeatedly to a sex act that he proceeds with. And, you know, his thinking is represented very fully in the book. And you can decide if you feel that she is correct in that assessment.

DM: But Lauer was dismissed. But NBC News President Noah Oppenheim has called you a disgruntled employee, says the reason you're spreading conspiracy theories about why the Weinstein story was killed was because you have an axe to grind. What do you say to that?

RONAN FARROW: Every story that I report against powerful interests or organizations, I get this same kind of rhetoric thrown at me. And, you know, that's true of basically every investigative reporter who works on a tough story. And one of the moving things that we've seen in recent weeks is, you know, people like Chris Hayes inside the NBC ecosystem holding their bosses accountable. Unanimity, as far as I've seen in the outpouring of support from journalists there, saying this accords with our knowledge of what's happening here and we need to do more to hold ourselves accountable. The book is very much a tribute to great journalists across the board and specifically great journalists at NBC News who are now demanding answers. And so, I think that the response to that is very clear in the way in which our community of fellow journalists have rallied around this book.

DM: Your book reads like a thriller and it paints this picture of a large network of media business entertainment, men; men in those industries who are working together to keep stories undercover. I wonder, you know, in many ways the story than the picture that you paint affirms some pretty long held conspiracy theories about the media. That does not worry you at all?

RONAN FARROW: You know, at a time when authoritarian rhetoric gets weaponized against the press in the United States, people like Donald Trump, you know, try to call the press the enemy of the people. I think it's very difficult to come to the end of this book with any opinion other than admiration for the many reporters who continue in the face of that to operate at the highest standard of truth telling and to not acquiesce to pressure from powerful interests. You know, as much as this is a book about the ways in which the media can let down brave sources, it is also a book about the vital importance of the work the media does and the need to hold ourselves to that high standard.

DM: It's also a book about Ronan Farrow, who went through an incredible amount of stress to pursue a story. You were lonely at times. You were isolated, you were targeted for surveillance, you say. You lost your job at NBC. So, yes, you won a Pulitzer. But in your mind, was the story worth it?

RONAN FARROW: Every time a source comes to me with a new piece of information that reveals, not just stories about sexual violence, but any kind of misconduct or malfeasance, I am so grateful as I am to the women who made it possible to tell the Weinstein story. And there is no question in my mind that I would do it all again and that it was the least that I could have and should have done. And I try to be forthright, you know, when I talk about those difficult moments about it being a moment where I was really tired and stressed, but also the tip of the iceberg in terms of how bad it could have gotten for sources and for other journalists. And, you know, just one part of this massive machine and how it affects lots of lives. I tried to tell it in a way where it is not so much woe is me, but revealing about the larger patterns of obstacles people go up against. So the answer is absolutely not. I have never had a moment where I've felt that it wasn't worth telling these stories.

DM: Ronan Farrow, thank you for telling your story today with us.

RONAN FARROW: Thank you so much for your time.

DM: Ronan Farrow is a contributing writer for The New Yorker magazine. His new book is Catch and Kill: Lies Spies and a Conspiracy to Protect Predators. The CBC has not independently corroborated the reporting in Ronan Farrow's book. We did. Asks NBC for comment, but didn't hear back. In a memo to staff, NBC News President Noah Oppenheim wrote, quote: "We have no secrets and nothing to hide. There is no evidence of any reports of Matt Lauer's misconduct before his firing. No settlements, no hush money, no way we have found that NBC's current leadership could have been aware of his misdeeds in the past." End quote, Matt Lauer issued a public letter through his lawyer in which he asserts, quote: "In a new book. It is alleged that an extramarital but consensual sexual encounter I have previously admitted having was in fact, an assault. It is categorically false, ignores the facts and defies common sense." A company spokesperson for the National Enquirer's parent company issued a statement that reads in part, quote: "Mr. Farrow's narrative is driven by unsubstantiated allegations from questionable sources. And while these stories may be dramatic, they are completely untrue." We requested statements from Harvey Weinstein and Woody Allen, but haven't received replies. And we also requested comment from Black Cube but didn't hear back. Well, coming up in our next half hour, the font Comic Sans is known for being divisive, but it turns out it can also bring people together. We'll hear that story as the font turns 25. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

Banning Comic Sans

DM: I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current. When I say Comic Sans, what comes to mind? Squiggly, playful letters, a childlike, frivolous font, perhaps? Well, when it was introduced 25 years ago, you might say all Helvetica broke loose. That's because it was being used everywhere. Tombstones, hospital signs, even documents from the Vatican. But it's not all bad. In fact, the font brought together Holly and Dave Combs, and it's still a big part of their lives.

SOUNDCLIP

HOLLY: Well, it's a really beautiful story. How Dave and I met.

[Music].

HOLLY: It was a surprise to me. I was actually leading worship at a synagogue and I looked up and saw him and I promise I almost like fell over. I thought he was the most handsome guy I'd ever met.

DAVE: And when I saw Holly, I thought she was an angel. She was singing up on the stage and I fell in love right there on the spot.

HOLLY: I was at an amazing art school, but I really didn't have time to date, and so I explained to him some of the projects I was doing in school and he said, can we date? And I said, I don't have time. And he said, why? I already have the same degree you're getting. Perhaps I could just help you with all your work. I actually had a project that I had to work on and it was for a huge museum here in Indianapolis. And when I was briefed on the project, they told me that every aspect of the show, the event, the gallery event had to be in Comic Sans. Everything from the signage on the outside of the building to the gallery guide. And I just felt so angry because I just spent four years of my life obsessing over typography and to choose Comic Sans just felt like a punch in my gut.

DAVE: My first thought was, let's ban Comic Sans.

HOLLY: I was shocked. I thought it was a fabulous solution. I could have never thought of it, but I was really like, how does one go about banning a font?

DAVE: I thought maybe a few graphic designers would get the idea of what we were doing and kind of have a laugh and maybe put up a few stickers. But in reality, we were almost inundated right away. As soon as we put that Web site up. We started getting requests from all over the world for us to send them our stickers. We thought it might be a very limited audience, but it turned out it was people all over the world from countries that we hadn't even heard of at the time that were saying Comic Sans is a horrible problem here. Can you please send me some of your stickers so I can put them up in my city? So we did.

[Music]

HOLLY: The example in school that was taught to me is that accidentally Vinson Connare's awful. Comic Sans typeface was not even meant to be bundled into the Microsoft bundle of fonts. It was just supposed to be in a talking bubble for this dog. It was never meant to be in print.

DAVE: As far as fonts go, I think Justin Bieber maybe has a little more talent at singing than Vincent Connare, at least demonstrated when he created Comic Sans.

HOLLY: 25th anniversary. Wow.

DAVE: Originally, I think it was kind of fun and different. And so people started using it a lot. And then our whole band became embraced by people who, I hate to say it, but we're kind of like a little bit high and mighty and feeling like they were better than other people because they knew about fonts. And so I think there was even a backlash to that. That made Comic Sans almost cool because it annoyed the people like us that were saying being Comic Sans. So I think it's been through the whole gamut of kind of cool, hated, and kind of cool again. So maybe, maybe it is a little bit more like Justin Bieber than I care to admit. Most people don't know about typography, so it's inexcusable mistake.

HOLLY: I think Dave might have lost his mind because I think it is inexcusable. I just I think it's irresponsible that comic sans be out in the world all rogue so that anybody can use it.

DAVE: When we started it, it was just kind of meant to be a joke. And I think it's a joke that may have gotten a little out of hand. It kind of reached sort of a, I don't know, a cultural like crescendo of resonance with people. And they thought, well, I know about typefaces now because I've learned. So it's okay for me to pick on other people who don't know about it and make fun of them. And that's what we never intended. So my change of heart had to do with how far people have taken the Ban Comic Sans campaign.

HOLLY: I guess 19 years in December, we will have been married. We've known each other 20 years and no way. We have a really great marriage and it's about communication. And he just did this without talking to me. He just did it. And so I wake up. I'm looking at my social media and it doesn't say a Ban Comic Sans. It says use Comic Sans. And I'm thinking somebody hacked our social media and I walked downstairs and Dave had the craziest look on his face. I was what are you doing? It says on a social media Use Comic Sans. And he goes, I just don't want anyone to be mean to anyone. I mean, I get it. I don't want anyone to be mean to anyone. I really- I know this is kind of silly, but honestly, I don't think anyone should use Comic Sans because it's not meant for print. And I think he's too nice. Yes.

[Music]

DAVE: Maybe we could retire it kind of like.

HOLLY: We can retire it.

DAVE: Like famous ballplayers when they retire, they oftentimes retire that number. So maybe, maybe it's time to retire Comic Sans. Maybe that's the new.

HOLLY: I like that. Look, our marriage is being renewed, right?

DM: Holly and Dave Combs live in Indianapolis, Indiana. You're listening to the current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. I'm Duncan McCue.

Essex truck deaths

Guests: Guwali Passarlay, Neil Giles

SOUNDCLIP

NEWSCASTER: The 39 people found dead in the back of a truck near London would Chinese police said on Thursday. Eight of the deceased are women. 31 are men of sin.

VOICE 1: I've seen six people getting out of back of a lorry in the same location and scattering in all directions.

VOICE 2: This is an absolute tragedy and very sad day for Essex police and the local community.

VOICE 1: It's part of life and everyone is used to seeing and hearing about it. And I'm just shocked that's nothing's ever been done.

NEWSCASTER 2: This matter has attracted national and international interests, and it's absolutely imperative that the operation is conducted with the utmost respect for the 39 people who have lost their lives.

DM: Many questions remain after 39 people, believed to be Chinese nationals, were found dead inside a refrigerated truck container in England. Temperatures in the container could have reached minus 25 Celsius. It's not yet clear why they were in the container, if they've been smuggled or trafficked and who knew who they were there. The truck's driver has been arrested on suspicion of murder and two others were arrested today on suspicion of human trafficking and manslaughter. And a murder investigation has been launched. It's the kind of journey that Guwali Passarlay knows well. He was 12 years old when he fled in Afghanistan to escape the war. He traveled to the UK in the back of a truck. Guwali Passarlay is the author of The Lightless Sky: My Journey to Safety as a Child Refugee. We reached him in Manchester, England. Hello.

GULWALI PASSARLAY: Hello, good morning.

DM: When you found out, when you heard the news about these 39 deaths in Essex, what went through your mind?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: I was actually doing a talk at a school in Yorkshire, and when I took the news I was shocked, but not surprised. And it's been heartbreaking. The last 24 hours have been quite difficult for me. It's been personal because I was in a similar truck coming from Calais, France to the UK more than 12 years ago. And so I could that could have been my fate, too. And my heart goes out to the families of those victims who lost their lives in such a tragedy.

DM: You did have a journey from Calais in the back of a truck. I mean, it's a harrowing journey to the UK. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: Great. So after going through around 11000 miles across parts of the world, being arrested, imprisoned, treated really inhumanely by authorities across Turkey, Iran, Bulgaria and Greece and elsewhere, I managed to the Calais jungle and I spent a very miserable month in the jungle. It was very cold. We used to get arrested by the police and it was a very desperate situation. It was. It was around the same time of the year. It was in November 2007. I got a cross on the back of a refrigerated lorry. If the driver had put on the freezer, we would have been killed in the last leg of our journey. So I was very lucky and fortunate. And those people weren't. So, you know, this shouldn't have happened. This was preventable. The UK government needs to let go of this hostile environment and take human that's human. Those are not some sort of cargo or some sort of commodity. They are human beings. And we need to be treating people with respect and dignity that they deserve.

DM: Can you help us understand you were in Calais, France. Why did you go over in the back of a truck? I mean, how many times were you trying to get over into the UK?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: So one of the reasons I was going to the UK was because I was unwelcome elsewhere except Italy, but also because my brother was supposed to be in Britain. And so when I was in Calais, I tried almost every take a train, lorries, trucks and everything that was available to me, or possible. And then after about a hundred attempts in that month, the smuggler put us in to regulate a lorry. Well, so he came with like bananas, early in the morning, about 3:00 in the morning. We were exhausted from running from the police. It was cold. It was muddy. And then he came with the bananas in his hand. We knew there was a refrigerator or the freezer. And so almost everyone immediately said we were not going on this truck. And so it was quite unusual by the smuggler because he usually would come in us- He would ask certain people to go to the truck. But this time he came in. He asked us who is willing to go. So we knew this was quite dangerous.

DM: How many people were in the back of the truck?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: We - because I said I was going then because of me going, I was the youngest, I was a child. So everyone else was kind of persuaded or encouraged. So there were seven of us together in the back of that truck, which was full of bananas, container boxes of bananas.

DM: You knew it was a refrigerated truck at the time? I mean, the refrigeration wasn't on. But did you know it was a refrigerated truck and what kind of danger you might have been in?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: Correct. So, well, I didn't know the extent of danger and the risk that we were taking. I knew it was a pleaser because everyone- by then we kind of become experts in lorries and everything else because we were there for a month and we had nothing to do other than jumping to lorry. So we knew it was risky because the concern we had was if the driver put on the freezer that will be a huge problem. would under police. And secondly, nobody will hear us. Once the smuggler close the doors behind us, then we have the mercy of God, basically, or the driver, if he ever opens the door. And no matter how much you make noise or knock on the truck, it's sealed. It's basically, you are in there, in refrigerator, it is very difficult to get your voice out there. And so I was worried about not being able to breathe and being able to not die because of cold. So we were very fortunate that the driver did not put on the freezer. Otherwise, the fate would have been very different.

DM: You mentioned that that in your case, smugglers puts you in. In this case, right now in Essex, there are a lot of questions about whether the 25 year old driver of the truck knew there were people stowed in the container of his truck. How possible is it, do you think, that he didn't know?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: This is the thing. I mean, we can speculate. The problem. In my case the driver didn't know. In this situation that is different because it's a container and it's on the truck the guy came to collect it. So I was behind a truck already. So we were in a container in the back of a lorry in the back of the truck. So this situation is different because this vehicle must have been there for a week, for a few days. Who knows? And we have no idea whether they were placed in there in Belgium or somewhere else in Europe and how long they were there. The issue is the valley even knew or he didn't knew. Either way, it does not take away from the gravity of the situation and the heartbreakedness of the circumstances those people who found themselves in.

DM: You were trying to get to the UK to find your brother. You'd heard your brother was there. You were trying to find him. Can you give us some sense of why do you think people are willing to risk their lives going to try to take these really dangerous truck journeys?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: So I've been trying to explain this for the last 24 hours to people, and some people are still very bad at understanding this. I mean, you have to be ain an extraordinary situation where you want to rescue a life, because the desperation that you feel. I mean, that's the sad reality, is that people who make those journey, it's a small percentage who wants to come to the UK from France and elsewhere because they're just being treated really badly in those countries and unwelcomed. And also because they have reasons they wanted to come to the UK. It's a life and death situation. It's a gamble for people. People just think, you know, hopefully they can make it. They may be reunited with their family. They'll have better opportunities and better life. But to be honest, it's not everyone who wants to come here. And also, the UK makes it so difficult for people to come here legally to stay for a legal means. There is no safe passage. The law says you have to be on the line to claim asylum. And we build fences and walls in Calais. So people then take desperate measures and the smugglers, the traffickers prey on people when their [unintelligible] and exploit them. I mean, I hope that the traffickers are found and have gone to justice because one death is too many and certainly unacceptable. It's just a heartbreaking story.

DM: It is a heartbreaking story. And I wonder, is there anything else that you would like to see happen so that people don't die when they're trying to enter into the UK?

GULWALI PASSARLAY: I certainly think we need is more compassion. We need to be willing to open our hearts. We have to understand we are lucky privilege to be born in the peaceful part of the world. So in Canada, in the states, as well as here in Britain, in the Western Europe. People come here with hope because of desperation, because of persecution, injustice, wars, conflict, poverty and so on and so forth. But, you know, when people come here, we have a legal and moral obligation and responsibility to treat them with dignity and respect that they deserve. So the UK, for example Canada has done well in terms of getting people legally through safe passage from Syria, from elsewhere, Syrian refugees and other refugees. We need to have a mechanism and a system in place where people are able to apply for humanitarian visa. I mean, like, why is it so difficult? You know, people could apply for a visitor visa and businesses visa from the British embassy and consulate. Why can't they also apply for a humanitarian visa where the home office here can consider their cases for refugee status instead of making them risk their lives? So the law has to change. The law has to basically make it possible for people to come here in a civilized, humane way. We have made it difficult. That's why people are risking their life. You know, if you are able to get people here in a safer way. Still consider cases, still go through the process and and the due diligence, fine, but do it humanely. But right now, I think we are lacking compassion and humanity.

DM: Thank you for helping us understand it a little bit more and sharing some of that humanity with us.

GULWALI PASSARLAY: Thank you for having me.

DM: Gulwali Passarlay is the author of The Lightless Sky: My Journey to Safety as a Child Refugee. He was in Manchester, England. It's not unusual for desperate migrants to use containers and trucks to enter the UK. Neil Giles is the director of intelligence led prevention for the Global Antislavery Group Stop the traffic. He's in London, England. Hello.

NEIL GILES: Good morning.

DM: Let me ask you, what went through your mind when you first heard about the death of 39 people believed to be Chinese nationals in that that lorry, that truck?

NEIL GILES: Well, shock and horror, a tragedy. It replayed the events of almost 20 years ago when 58 Chinese people died in very similar circumstances, en route from the continent of Europe into the UK. And as soon as I heard of the tragedy and before we knew of the identity, I was pretty certain that they would be Chinese nationals. And I'm reasonably pretty certain that this was organized trafficking of individuals from China to the UK to disappear into debt bonded labor for a very large part of their lives.

DM: It isn't entirely clear yet whether these people were migrants or whether they're being trafficked. You suggest that you think you're reasonably certain that that they were being trafficked. What kind of signs do you look for to determine which it might be?

NEIL GILES: First of all, the methodology, 39 people in the back of a truck that arrives in this fashion bears all the hallmarks for me of organized activity. There was a plan. The plan has gone wrong because clearly they were supposed to arrive alive. There's no benefit to the traffickers at all, for the cargo of people in this case, to not be able to deliver on the debts that they've accumulated from their journey from China to this place. So this is an organized crime plan that's gone very badly wrong. And whilst there's almost 20 years between the last event like this and this one, it is a high risk methodology to traffic people into the UK. But I don't doubt there have been other instances that have worked successfully for them.

DM: Neil Giles, what kind of trends are you seeing in terms of the numbers of people arriving in the UK from China, either as migrants or through trafficking?

NEIL GILES: We see quite a lot of people that we suspect to be trafficked from China in all kinds of places in the UK. If I give you the big picture, our government would accept and have accepted for the last four years there, at least 13,000 people are in circumstances that we would describe as modern slavery in the UK. The latest academic research suggests it's something north of 100,000 people likely to be in circumstances of slavery or exploitation in the UK. And a significant proportion of those are people from South East Asia and China in particular. We see Chinese women in sex work here, working in what we would describe as pop up brothels. And we see Chinese men and women working in the food industry, particularly, a very commonplace who are undocumented under the radar. So that they're not on any lists anywhere. We don't know of their existence and they live a life in restaurants and takeaway food stores and in brothels and have no real interaction with the rest of society other than in the goods or the products that they deliver.

DM: We heard our first guest go, Wally, pastorally, and you heard him talk about making the journey from Calais, France, to Dover. And he started in a migrant camp. It's since been shut down there. But did that make a difference, shutting down that that migrant camp in the way that migrants are trying to enter the UK?

NEIL GILES: I don't think we see a perceptible difference. They've distributed themselves a little more widely across the coast of France and Belgium, but there are certainly still migrants looking to get to the UK from there and taking risks to do that. Whether that's clambering onto trucks or trying to cross the English Channel in a rubber dinghy, which we had a good deal of during the course of last summer. So that traffic of migrants to get here to claim some kind of asylum or immigration status is what is still occurring. And a proportion of the people that come by that route, in our view, have already been groomed and are already trafficked. And as soon as they arrive here that they know who to make contact with. What they realize is that they're trafficked at that stage. That's kind of a creeping process. They think that the benefactor that they're going to is going to take care of them, to give them opportunity. It's going to be the veritable streets paved with gold scenario, but too often that turns to dust and they find themselves working for many months without recompense. And then eventually fall out of their captors hands and into the rehabilitation program that our modern slavery legislation provides.

DM: What more do you think the UK or the EU governments should be doing to address this issue at the moment?

NEIL GILES: Well, I think in honesty, over the last five years, we've been on a very steep learning curve, understanding much more about the size and shape of the problem here in the UK and indeed globally. To a large extent, we're one of the few countries that have taken modern slavery seriously in the last five years with new legislation, with new provisions for the victims of modern slavery and with much more knowledge in our communities of what it looks like and how it manifests itself in amongst us. There is a great deal more interest in the subject and a great deal more action.

DM: You say you've taken modern slavery more seriously. But I mean, what more can be done in terms of stopping people from taking these high risk methods of getting into the UK?

NEIL GILES: That's 100 percent what my organisation is about. We're about the prevention of modern slavery. Most people take this journey on the basis of a deception. And so we need to understand where the recruiting zones for the criminal groups are. We know a lot more about that now and we have programs particularly using social media communications programs to begin to debunk that deception before people follow that journey from its very start. So taking away the opportunity to recruit. Trafficking in persons is a business. It's a it's an errant economic equation that lives amongst us all, in Canada as well as it does in the UK. And we need to address it as an errant economy and begin to undermine the things that make it popular amongst crime groups of that persuasion. It's very much about money. So we know it's at least globally 150 billion U.S. dollar year revenue business. I suspect very much more than that. And all of that money is going in some way, shape or form through financial services outfits around the globe. They need to know what it looks like so that they can spot and stop it. There's work to do here. But there's a lot of good work already underway.

DM: Neil Giles, thank you very much for helping us understand it today.

NEIL GILES: Thank you.

DM: Neil Giles is the Director of Intelligence-led Prevention for the global anti-slavery group Stop The Traffik. He is in London, England. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Neil Young's new album, 'Colorado,' and his documentary, 'Mountain,' are both being released today. And he'll be Tom Power's guest. CBC Listen is the new, free app that lets you discover the very best in Canadian audio, from CBC Radio, CBC Podcasts, and CBC Music. Listen to The Current live from anywhere on your phone or tablet, and catch up on show highlights on demand anytime. Earlier, we were talking about the polarizing font - Comic Sans. Love it or hate it, it's been used for 25 years. And since we spoke with the people behind the Ban Comic Sans movement... we thought it only fair to give some time to the other side. Here's Gunnarolla with his tune The Comic Sans Song. I'm Duncan McCue. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[The Comic Sans song]

Friday October 25, 2019 Full Transcript

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