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The Current Transcript for October 22, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

More often than not, looking to demonise each other or the values that we have and operate that we have. I just don't think that that's going to be how we move forward as a nation.

MATT GALLOWAY: How will the United States move forward as a nation? Eleven days before that country votes in a monumental election? It's a question on many people's minds this fall. We've been driving The Current's R.V. down the Mississippi, talking to Americans about what's at stake in this vote. Today, we pull into Tennessee Music City, home of country music, home of Dolly Parton. That's in 30 minutes. Also this morning, has Google become the gatekeeper to the Internet? That is the argument from authorities who say the tech giant is too big for our collective good. In an hour, the argument to break up Google. Plus when you're looking for advocacy for the LGBTQ community is The Pope who you'd naturally turn to?

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His five most famous words are who am I to judge? And he was referring to first gay priests and then gay people. He said in general, that really has helped LGBT people who are already part of the church feel more comfortable in the church.

MG: How Catholics are responding to news that Pope Francis has voiced support for same sex unions and what that could mean for those in countries where fighting for that right is a life and death issue. That's coming up. We start, though, with the cold reality of winter in Canada. Outdoor workouts and a pandemic that's closed gyms in parts of this country. How do you feel about Zumba in the snow? Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Staying fit through a COVID-19 winter

Guests: Melanie Wall, Victoria Wickett, Raywat Deonandan

[Sound: Distant chatter]

MG: Queen Elizabeth Park in Vancouver, pickleball, players are lined up for their turn on the courts. It's a sunny fall afternoon, but if you know Vancouver, you know it's not going to stay this way all winter.

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VOICE 1: We have given a lot of thought about what to do.

VOICE 2: I think the city needs to man up, put some money up a bubble over. There's 20 people playing if it's sunny and 20 people waiting if it's sunny, we need a bubble.

VOICE 1: At one point last year, I was a member of four different gyms. A couple have gone out of business. A large yoga studio out of business. We're left with very little choice. And the endorphins that you get from pickleball are really unmatched.

VOICE 3: When the bad weather would come, I win.

VOICE 4: Please don't pick a bowl game. Believe me, I'm the senior 80 years old. It's a best sport for the seniors. Don't. So now for us, is that better by now? What are we going to do during the winter? Yeah. You see. Look at me. I run, play all the time. Kick me up. Keep me from the hospital bed.

MG: Vancouverites aren't the only ones trying to figure out how to stay active this winter. Pouring rain is one issue. Snow and cold quite another. But indoor exercise during the covered pandemic brings a host of other questions. Hamilton, Ontario spin studio has been linked with 74 cases of COVID-19, even though the gym was following health guidelines. And it's not the only gym that's dealt with an outbreak. Melanie Wall runs Inferno Fitness, a hot politesse studio just outside of Edmonton. Almost 40 cases have been traced to that studio. Melanie, good morning.

MELANIE WALL: Hi.

MG: How did you find out about the spread of COVID-19 at your gym?

MELANIE WALL: I first learnt about it on October 1st when one of my members reached out to me to tell me that she had tested positive and that HSF would be in contact with me. And that was the first day that I heard that we had had a positive case come into the studio.

MG: So Alberta Health Services gets in contact. What happens then?

MELANIE WALL: When they do get in contact with you, then they start doing the contact tracing. But I had already done that before because I felt like I couldn't wait to hear from them, to tell people that there had been somebody in their class that they could be potentially exposed to COVID-19, sort of already done her class. And then by the time they'd reached out to me, those people that I had already reached out to had done their testing and a few of them had come back positive. So they need to do more classes. And I just kind of snowballed from there.

MG: And you close down immediately.

MELANIE WALL: I did, yes, voluntarily, too.

MG: Yes, I'm sure. What were the measures that you had in place to prevent the spread of COVID?

MELANIE WALL: Well, ironically, I actually had one of my instructors who works with the community health public health care, and she was able to get me a lot of the guidelines and restrictions right. From her manager when I opened. So I had a little bit of additional help from somebody like that to help me with all the guidelines. So we had more kind of strict procedures in place going in as we opened. And sadly, it just we had a few actually quite a few people that showed up with symptoms, but them not even knowing that it was even covered related, then it just kind of spread from there.

MG: How frustrating was it for you? I mean, you again, you're trying to do all the right things, and yet this still somehow gets into your studio and you have to close down.

MELANIE WALL: It's frustrating. But at the same time, you can't, there's no one to really blame. And you just try to do your best as a person. And I think really the most frustrating part is, unfortunately, we can't do the contract tracing as fast as the Alberta Health Services want us to. And that's why the spread goes so fast. And that is why I find it most frustrating to stay on the line.

MG: Melanie, I want to bring another gym owner into the conversation. Victoria Wickett is the co-owner of Bomb Fitness in Toronto. Toronto is one of three regions in Ontario where in early October gyms were ordered to close for at least four weeks. Victoria. Good morning to you.

VICTORIA WICKETT: Good morning.

MG: You just finished teaching a class outside.

VICTORIA WICKETT: I did. In the rain.

MG: In the rain. OK, so how did it go?

VICTORIA WICKETT: It was [unintelligible]. So we've been streaming our life classes and over Zoome as well. So I had an iPod full of people sitting out in the rain watching us get soaked too. So that's a nice way to start the morning.

MG: How many people showed up to work out in the rain?

VICTORIA WICKETT: I only had three outside.

MG: What is it like teaching outdoors?

VICTORIA WICKETT: It's definitely not us putting our best foot forward. That's for sure. At least we're close enough to the gym that they can grab the equipment that. They need and normally it's like a dry, flat place for them to exercise, but it's not what people are looking for. Our classes said that at that time, our normally packed and now there are nothing.

MG: And do you have a lot of people who are watching you, as you say, get soaked in the rain online, or are they streaming that or we have something?

VICTORIA WICKETT: Yes, we have us we have a solid group. We run several classes during the day. So we get a, you know, a half a dozen that each class that are online and then whoever shows up in person as well.

MG: The gyms were close. Then they reopened. And then these new restrictions came into place earlier this month. What was it like to be told that you had to shut down again?

VICTORIA WICKETT: It was heartbreaking. It's really we never thought that it would happen because there hadn't been really any evidence of community spread. At the time that we were asked to close and it was just like we we didn't really know what we were going to do, how we were going to hold onto our members after seven months of being closed and paying rent on two large facilities to be asked to close again in this weather, two is really crushing.

MG: And then you hear stories like Melanie's. I mean, she did everything possible that she should have done and it still sneaks in there. What goes through your mind when you hear that?

VICTORIA WICKETT: My question is just say what you know, what can we be doing to enhance these guidelines for fitness facilities? I know we're totally different than, say, a nail salon where people are sitting, talking quietly. We're breathing, moving around and, you know, closing a solid rocket within our facility. So making sure airflow and everything is paramount and keeping the class sizes so small that, you know, it would be easier to trace the contacts if necessary. But, yes, I feel for her. I can't I don't know what that would be like to have to deal with that sort of thing. I know on our end, before we open those safety precautions, we just doubled them so that we didn't have anyone within 20 feet of anybody else across from them in 12 feet aside, just in case.

MG: Are you confident you talk about the ruckus that you're creating? Are you confident that you can operate safely in a gym space?

VICTORIA WICKETT: I am, and strictly because we have those the space to do it and those the staff who are interested in it. When we reopened in the first place, even without the guidelines set in place, we only reopened our studio that normally we would have 24 people in a class at, you know, and on our busy days, we would have 40 people. We capped all of our classes at 10 people. So they had 200 square feet of space for each person. And all of their own equipment and everything they could need for a class. So I do think we could open it safely and do it well. It's just I do think we're all kind of being tarred with the same brush. And these guidelines just don't work the same for every fitness facility. You need to look at what what you have to do in your facility, make sure that things are run safely. And it's just guesswork. You don't know until it happens.

MG: I guess I just wonder I mean, if it's boot camp, I mean, you're huffing and puffing because you're working at heart. And we know that, you know, we're told that people who are singing together are going to spread this virus. If you're breathing really heavily, is that is it possible to do that safely, even if a class is small?

VICTORIA WICKETT: So in our in our case, we thought, like, the only way that we would be safe is if we kept people very far apart. So we kept people, like I said, this 200 square feet of space to themselves. They're all boxed off so that they have a workspace. And then a buffer area around them. That's that's it's either six or 10 feet, depending on the direction. We also get air purifiers within our facility and we have front in the back door airflow. So in my particular case, with a big box that is open and well spread out, I think it could be safe to do it.

MG: Melanie, while you've been listening in. You've been closed for more than two weeks. You're hoping to reopen soon. Can you run a hot pilates studio and do it safely? I don't know what I mean. Is it possible to do hot pilates in a mask?

MELANIE WALL: Well, I think it's a little bit more than your typical pilates. So you are doing, a little bit more intensity with getting your heart rate up and breathing a lot, heavier as well. I honestly like I just COVID so unknown and there's so much that people don't know about it as well. Even the people that are studying it every day and always changing. As a business owner, I'm confident we can do it safely if people do their part. Like, stay home if you're sick. But at the same time, we don't know enough about COVID. Is it really that airborne and how long is it that airborne for and how long is it contagious for? Because it's changing all the time.

MG: Let me ask you just briefly, as a business person, how long can you get to your point? We don't know what's going to happen with this case. Counts are going up in Alberta. How long can can you stay closed if you don't want to go?

MELANIE WALL: Nobody wants to be closed and we want to close our business. And sadly, it's not very long that you can stay closed because you have people that are already wanting to go somewhere else or they don't want to pay for a three month, three weeks for the already closed. And it's you understand their stress to your aid, but you can stay close. But then you have to take out more financing from the government and then you're going more in debt. And then as a small business owner, that kills us already. How much do you want to do? Right.

MG: Victoria, I keep thinking this is a situation that you find yourself in as well. But you tried to move outside. Just before I let you go. You were out, you know, doing the class in the pouring rain. What about when it gets snowy and cold? Are you going to be out there leading the class again. And do you think people will come and work out in the cold?

MELANIE WALL: I think we have some diehards that I will definitely want to come out in the rain tonight or in the snow. And I think it's just how you we need to change the programming to make that happen. We see runners that are outside all year round then, you know, brave elements and and we prepare for it. And I mean, if we have to be close, I feel like this is a better time to do it as the weather's changing versus like suddenly getting shut down when we have snow on the ground. But we've also kept our virtual offerings going throughout the whole lakes and through the reopening and then this this next closure and people who are holding on to that are doing okay as well.

MG: I wish you both the best of luck. Part of it is the weather, which is unpredictable, but also this virus. Good luck and be well.

MELANIE WALL: Thank you so much.

MG: Melanie Wall is the owner part me of Infernal Fitness and Sherwood Park, Alberta. Victoria Wickett is the co-owner of Bomb Fitness in Toronto. Not all fitness groups rely on an indoor space, even in parts of this country where things can get very chilly.

[sc].

My name is Megan Hunter. November Project Winnipeg is an outdoor fitness group, so we meet all year round no matter what, no matter how cold it is. Any workout you come to. That's minus 31 will give you a batch to take home. There was one winter in Winnipeg a few years ago when there was a number of days that we were, in fact, colder than Mars. So one of the workouts we had was minus 45. So running high knees, jumping jacks, anything that keeps you moving, any time you're standing for too long, it's game over. While working out outside, it's always been really important to me, but especially because of COVID, it's doubly important. Gyms are open now, but some people might not always feel safe. And with Winnipeg, our winter is half the year. So if you're not going to go outside for a walk or a run, you're going to be stuck indoors all year. So it's makes a difference to be outside breathing that fresh air, getting moving.

While minus 45 weather didn't stop people at the Winnipeg Nov project, a spike in COVID cases has. Classes have been put on hold because of new restrictions on how many people can gather outside. And when it gets colder than Mars, not everyone is keen to break a sweat in that kind of fresh weather. So with winter on the way. What's safe and what's not? When it comes to staying active, Raywat do Deonandan is a global health epidemiologist, associate professor at the University of Ottawa, good morning to you. Good morning. Let's run through a few things. One is, how safe is it to work out indoors? What do we know about that?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Well, comes down to the mechanisms of transmission. We think that this disease is passed on mostly from droplet transmission. That's when, you know, you exhale these bits of mucus containing virus and they tend to fall to the ground within one or two metres. That's why we're a massive event. And the second most common way of transmission, we think is airborne or aerosol. That's when these viral particles float around in the air for hours and possibly days. So it's the second that is harder to control. And the indoor environment, it's really a good environment for promoting aerosolization. So unless you've got good ventilation and open windows, air purifiers, filters, et cetera, you've got a good chance of having aerosolization take place. And the third kind of transmission is what we call soulmate. That's when you touch a surface that someone else is touching. Maybe you touch your face. We don't think that happens a lot, but it's possible. So that's what we have, the deep cleaning events happening, shared weights and exercise machines and so forth.

MG: There was a big outbreak at the Spin Studio in Hamilton, Ontario. Is there something that would be particularly dangerous about that kind of environment?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Absolutely. Number one, a large number of people in an enclosed environment. So if somebody is infected and don't know it, they're exhaling into that environment and other people are exposed. Number two, you're probably closer together than you think. Even if you're respecting the two metre distance, you're huffing and puffing. And so the droplets are going further than they would normally. And three, it's possible. And this isn't proven. It's possible that droplets fall into the spin mechanism and get aerosolized that way. And then you're increasing the probability of airborne transmission. And therefore, who knows how high the ceilings are and with the windows were open, etc. and that might be contributing to the lack of of control over aerosolization.

MG: And so if you wear a mask, I mean, it's a bit like altitude training. If you're huffing and puffing, you're going to be getting perhaps less oxygen. But if you wear a mask while you're spending away on the bike, is that going to help?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: The mask really only helps in diminishing distance that droplets travel. The masks don't help in protecting you from aerosol particles. That's an important distinction unless you're wearing N95, you know, medical quality mask, which is made for a purpose. In general, that's why for the threat of airborne transmission, really ventilation is our best bet. That's why it's important to be outside or have high ceilings and open windows, air purifiers, etc. The mask will help them much in that capacity.

MG: Let's listen to Julia Smith. She's a patron of that spin studio in Hamilton that had the outbreak. And and she was, in fact, one of the people who got cold there.

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I found the lock down very hard to deal with, not just from a physical perspective, but mentally. And so it was good to be back in the studio. I would go back in tomorrow because I feel that they took all of the necessary precautions and more. I really do hope that they don't close them definitely throughout the winter, which is also very hard because people are isolated in homes and the winters here in Canada are low sometimes we're closed up.

MG: Raywat, what do you make of that? Even somebody who is infected at a gym wants to go back. Her point is winters are long and we need somewhere to exercise, especially now.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Yes, a hundred percent. I can feel it. I'm a gym guy myself, and I'm feeling the absence of my gym. And so, yes, gyms are places where we learn to be healthy. And it's strange that in a health crisis, we are taking away one of the tools for becoming healthy. But I understand it. I support the gym closures. I think so. But when the case numbers come down, we should look into opening the gyms again safely with new guidelines. And these guides are going to change the more we learn about these things. And these include the lower number of people. Maybe some activities can't happen, like spin classes, like anything which you're in a group exhaling forcefully and maybe have as many outdoor events as possible, have windows always open and maybe have same people in there every single day like a classroom. So we have a set number of controlled exposures, the number of strategies we can apply still.

MG: Do you worry that I mean, again, in your own personal experience, it would be valuable here that as we as these lockdowns continue or the rolling lockdowns, that our mental health is really going to take a hit. I mean, I think, you know why I work out and it's to stay physically fit, but it's also because it clears my head.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Yes. Nothing prevents us from working out as part of our regular lives outside of a gym. We don't require this institution to keep ourselves healthy. It's just an additional tool we can use. May maybe an opportunity for a culture shift in our nation as a whole, that maybe fitness has to be part of our everyday lives, but does not require an additional expenditure, an external source to give us the tools to do so? I don't want to be diminishing the importance of that industry and to take no jobs and money out of their pockets. But, you know, other cultures have this as part of their everyday lifestyles. Go for a walk, go for a run, play a game with your kids, whatever. So there are ways to augment our mental health without needing to spend money and time in a gym. But it does help. I want the gyms to be open as soon as possible with the appropriate changes to make them safer.

MG: But in a winter nation, those are things that we could do in terms of embracing winter as well. Being out there and as you say, taking that walk, playing with your kids, going for a run or just doing something physically active outside.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Yes, exactly. Is this an opportunity for a cultural shift to embrace the outdoors even in winter.

MG: Are you going to do that now that you miss your gym?

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: No, I won't.

MG: I was going to say, not as I do.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: I'm enjoying my indoor work as it is, so I don't need that. But I do walk the dog every couple hours and he drives me crazy and gets to outside that way. But for other people who need more intense exercise. I can see, you know, a more intense run around the park. Now, of course, this is a bluesier it gets harder.. So in that sense, you have to sort of find some new ways of exerting ourselves. Luckily, there is no shortage of guidance online. No shortage of experts willing to share their experience and suggestions for at home workout.

MG: Raywat, thank you very much.

RAYWAT DEONANDAN: Thank you.

MG: Raywat Deonandan is an epidemiologist and associate professor at the University of Ottawa. How are you going to stay fit as winter approaches in the gyms in some parts of this country remain closed? You can reach us through the Web site. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. Coming up after your CBC News, we roll the radio RV into Tennessee to talk to young people about what the U.S. election means to them. I Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in six minutes.

U.S. election is a 'now-or-never' moment, say young voters worried about country they'll inherit post-pandemic

Guests: Austin Dowell, Alex Schramkowski, Karin Marley

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Pope Francis changes the course of the Catholic Church by endorsing civil unions for LGBTQ couples. But first, for pulling into the home country music.

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Together, we will make America great again.

Vote! Vote! Vote!

We're going to vote by mail, vote early.

But you don't hear them talking about COVID. I saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

The only thing you could tear America apart is America itself. And we should not let that happen.

MG: We're just under two weeks away from the U.S. election and Americans are already breaking voting records. More than 44 million people have cast their ballots thus far in an election that could see the highest voter turnout in U.S. history. During this special series that we're calling Road to November, we've been hearing from Americans all along the Mississippi River about what's at stake for them this time around. And today we have rolled our radio RV into:

[Music]

MG: Any guesses? They call it the volunteer state, but really they could just be called Dollywood.

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[Song]

MG: Dolly Parton, the queen, isn't the only one pouring a cup of ambition every morning in Tennessee. Today we are going to speak with some of the young voters here about why this election matters to them and to their generation. And as we pull into Music City, we make a stop at the Blackbird Academy. It's a recording studio and a school in downtown Nashville.

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We should be set up, Austin.

[Guitar]

MG: The Austin Dowell is on the other side of the glass. He's learning how to be a sound engineer. And today's lesson, a recording session with a classmate on the guitar.

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AUSTIN DOWELL: He's in the ISO booth right at the moment. And we are testing to see if we have patched and liked everything correctly. And everything is working.

[Sound: Guitar]

AUSTIN DOWELL: We can also change the levels. So we want a little bit more high end, kind of this.

[Music]

AUSTIN DOWELL: I don't think Nashville would be anything without music. I think that, you know, when you hear Nashville, you think of music, and I think that they just go hand-in-hand. My grandparents live in Wisconsin. I don't think that I would have had the same sort of desire or need to kind of want to be in music and be around sound. Just even growing up here, all my friends are in bands and musicians, and it's just always around. I mean, in every sort of house since moving away from my parents house I've lived in, there's always been a musician there playing music in the house or whatever. So it's just I've just always been around it. It feels sort of second nature at this point. So I definitely do believe Nashville is a huge influence on me wanting to be in music. Yes.

MG: Austin Dowell's taking a break from his class to join me now. Austin, hello.

AUSTIN DOWELL: How are you?

MG: I'm well. How are you?

AUSTIN DOWELL: Pretty good. Thank you for asking.

MG: Well, were saying there that Nashville wouldn't be anything without music. I mean, for people who've never been to the city, just how big of a role does music play in the life of Nashville?

AUSTIN DOWELL: You know, I don't think you can go to any sort of side of town within the general city of Nashville without there being some sort of studio or someone playing on a corner. Every week there's a singer songwriter night. And I think it's just in general, we kind of have this thing about our city that, you know, if you want to hear music, it'll be here. It's communal. It's really something personal to the city.

MG: What has the pandemic meant to that thriving music scene in Nashville?

AUSTIN DOWELL: It's kind of hit really hard. And just in general, of course, the venues haven't been able to host any sort of live music or anything of that nature. More than anything, I think the smaller venues who haven't been able to keep up with paying their rents during this, maybe some like the big venues like the Ryman Auditorium, who are able to kind of survive something like this. A lot of the DIY do yourself venues have kind of shut down and have no plans of reopening. I think that's really sad because Nashville isn't just these big booming place where only like large acts play.

MG: Do you worry? I mean, there's so much of the life of the city is that music scene. Music Row is one part of it. But the bars and the clubs and the big ones, the small ones, as you mentioned. Do you worry about what you'll come out of on the other side of this pandemic with?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I do worry. I've done my part, at least as far as zoning, and you sort of go find me that small venues may put. Sure. I think that everyone's just more than anything eager to get back to it and also a little anxious to see if we can even get back to that point.

MG: The eyes of the United States and people outside the U.S., of course, are on Nashville for the presidential debate. When you take a look at the election, you're 24 years old. What's at stake for you in this election? What are the big issues for you?

AUSTIN DOWELL: Things are so pressing and everything is such that a high stakes where you kind of have to maybe rank them, I think more than anything. I feel like the United States has done the worst as far as combating the coronavirus. So I really just want before we get anything taken care of, you just kind of see what we can do to properly, informally and safely roll out a plan that hasn't been what we've been doing. I don't think we've really been responsible in that sort. You know, climate change also is very important to me. It seems like at the past four years it hasn't really been a priority at all for our country. And also just student debt. I mean, I'm an eleven thousand dollars in student debt. And I feel lucky because when I look at my peers, they are in twenty thousand up to one hundred thousand dollars in debt, you know, and we're just surrounded by it and affects us all, especially young people. So I think that's also very important to me. I feel like also in general, just like there is this sort of rhetoric within the United States, especially the past four years, that it's just really harmful to anyone that's not from here and even citizens that do live here. We're really you know, the United States has always been kind of divisive, but I think it's even more polarised nowadays. So I think with anything, I just want sort of a different motto than what America has given to us.

MG: Can I ask you a couple of those things? In some ways, they're connected. I mean, if you take a look at the pandemic and you say a lack of a plan, what has that looked like? We've seen in some parts of the states protests around wearing masks or lockdowns, people pushing back saying that they don't think that it's as serious as as the scientists are making it out to be. What have you seen that would suggest that there's a lack of a plan when a coronavirus was first becoming a thing?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I think the United States was still just oblivious to it, at least at a citizen point of view. So I think we were kind of doomed from the beginning and we did shut down, but we only shut down strictly for, what, almost maybe three months and then we've rolled back into it. And numbers have not gone down. Numbers have only increased, at least in my city personally. There's been this back and forth of the stages of what we're in. And I think that's maybe kind of representative for the whole country. So I think we just continue to do this back and forth thing. And as you said, there is this ideology that wearing a mask or not wearing a mask is a choice of freedom. Oddly enough, in a lot of the times, people here don't believe that it's even a real thing. So it's hard to tell people to abide by something that they don't even think is real.

MG: Is it possible, do you think, to turn down the heat on that rhetoric that you were talking about? Because, again, the rhetoric influences how people think of things like a pandemic.

AUSTIN DOWELL: Definitely.

MG: Is it possible to do that?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I'd like to think that it is. I'd like to think that you can present science and facts to people and they'll respond accordingly. But that's unfortunately not what I've sen. We have upwards to two hundred thousand deaths and counting. So I think that's enough proof. But it still hasn't really given people enough drive to do the right thing.

AUSTIN DOWELL: This is your second time voting in a presidential election.

MG: Do you mind if I ask you who you're going to vote for?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I'm going to vote for Joe Biden.

MG: And what would you hope would change if Joe Biden became the president? I mean, you've hinted at a couple of things, but as a leader, what do you think he could bring to help address some of those issues.

AUSTIN DOWELL: I'm going to be very honest, I'm not sure if I have too much faith in that. Joe Biden will lead us to good place to be. And I'm one of those people who believes that we are voting for the lesser of two evils. But I don't think I've really seen anything from Joe Biden that really convinces me that we're going to get somewhere soon. But I do have more faith in him than our current president.

MG: When you talk to your friends about this, I mean, what do they say around- are they plugged in to this? Are they excited about voting? Or do they have kind of not a lack of enthusiasm that you have, but as you say, you're going to vote for what you think are the lesser of two evils. What do your friends say?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I think that we all in general feel the same way, unfortunately. As you said, we don't really feel enthusiastic about any of it. We feel more so urgent and responsible to go out and vote. It feels more of a now or never sort of situation.

MG: And yet, if you talk about climate change, I mean, you're the generation that will inherit this, right?

AUSTIN DOWELL: Definitely. I will say Joe Biden, in the last debate, he did give me a lot of faith when it comes to climate change. I listen to what he said, and he had a really clear understanding of what it was. And from my point of view, he had a really clear plan for the United States.

MG: Tennessee's a pretty Republican state. What's it like to be a Democrat and a Republican state?

AUSTIN DOWELL: I think Nashville is really unique in that because it's a blue county within a red state. I think living in Nashville and being really close to the city, you'll see a lot of really progressive people and younger people and people who aren't strictly red at all. But, you know, you drive 30 minutes outside of the city or an hour and you immediately, visibly see that it's a red state. I mean, it's there's Trump signs everywhere and Trump flags everywhere. It's very clear that Tennessee is a red state.

MG: Do you think there's just finally, is there anything in terms of priorities that you would share with a young Republican voter to maybe just listen more?

AUSTIN DOWELL: And I know that. And I think that maybe that could probably go for anyone. And that's a general thing. But personally, I feel like a young Republican should maybe listen more. I think being a Republican or even maybe a Democrat, you kind of go with the ideals of what you were taught. It just kind of fuels more cultural than more of a educated guess. I think maybe just to listen to someone on the left more. Look at a different news outlet. At minimum, I think at this point, all you can do is ask people to listen and to be more sympathetic and and do the right thing, to say the least.

MG: I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, Austin. Good luck with the work at the Blackbird Academy. And hopefully we'll listen to a music that you have engineered in the years to come.

AUSTIN DOWELL: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

MG: Austin Dowelll is taking sound engineering at the Blackbird Academy in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm going to travel too far to meet our next guest. He's just up the road at Belmont University. And that is where the final presidential debate will take place tonight. And the excitement on campus, as you can imagine, is building.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It feels pretty surreal to have such a hands on experience with this event, not only serve our student body and give back to the place that has given us so much, but also just be involved in the political process as college students.

VOICE 2: The hand in it kit and- it's just been a whirlwind of emotions, especially in the summer, just being able to adapt to the situation there now and to see that that's finally here, just can't believe it.

MG: 22 year old Alex Schramkowski is a first year law student. He's also the chairman of the Tennessee College Republican Committee. Alex, good morning.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for joining us.

MG: How you feeling about this debate taking place on your campus?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: It's really exciting and it's very exciting for our city and it's very exciting for the Belmont campus. I just became a law student, so I've only been at the university since about all this. But there's a really a ton of enthusiasm when it comes to hosting such an important event. A lot of students treat it as a really unique opportunity to have the political process happening so close to them. And that's maybe something that people remember for the rest of their lives.

MG: What's the setup like? I mean, it's close to the law school, right? So what have you seen?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: The majority of campus. There's this really big green space that kind of lines all of these academic buildings and dorms and things like that. And so they've built this debate tent. This debate stage to order to kind of be just right in the middle of that. You can't miss it when you're walking around campus. It'll be really interesting to watch.

MG: The last debate was described as a bit of a hot mess, as a bit of a dumpster fire. It was pretty shouty. What would you hope to hear in this debate that you did not hear last time?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: One of the things I'm really interested in is just scenes. Instead of dwelling on what the current circumstances are, really outlining the plan for the future and how we're going to get out of the pandemic, how we're going to improve the economy and the public health sector, I think that's going to be able to speak directly to a lot of voters who are wondering during these really uncertain times, what's the plan moving forward should be.

MG: Tell me more about that. As a 22 year old, what's at stake for you in this election?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: Personally, I would say that this election is one of the most pivotal of what will be my entire lifetime, as I'm sure Austin will probably agree with, right? We're going to inherit the economy, we're going to inherit the country after the pandemic is over. And that's going to be the country that we grow up in that we build families in and that we try and build a career in. So I think what's at stake in this election is trying to make sure that we have a commander in chief who has a plan in place to try and get us out of the pandemic and recover at the fastest rate that we can.

MG: Is it an assumption, a correct assumption to think that you are voting for Donald Trump?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: It is.

MG: What is it about Donald Trump that keeps you supporting him? Why is he the person that you think, to your point, I mean, in terms of creating a plan, in terms of leading for it, why is he the best person for the job for me?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: I think that the president has already tried to take steps to combat the pandemic and is really working to try and make sure that we're on the credit path to try and get out of vaccines and put into place operation warp speed. I know that is really trying to put as much resources into the hands of scientists and engineers who are trying to come up with a vaccine that we can get out to very vulnerable populations. It's important that we have somebody who's already really in tune with all the particulars of the pandemic as it's happening right now, who is kind of already working on steps to get us out of that.

MG: Let me ask you more about that, because he has faced fierce criticism for how he has handled the pandemic, initially downplayed it, said that he didn't want to create panic within people. 200,000 plus people have died in your country leads the number of of infections, leads the number of deaths. He has made claims that the pandemic is is on its way out, that there will be a vaccine, you know, imminently, perhaps before the election has raised questions around masks. When you hear that, how does that square with what you're saying? Because there are a lot of people who say that he's he's dropped the ball significantly on this enormous global health crisis.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: I understand why a lot of people are saying that, and I understand that it's an incredibly uncertain time for so many people. It's been an incredibly uncertain time for me and my family as well. I think that it's incumbent upon any commander in chief to take the problem seriously, but also to try and reassure the public. I think that he's tried to straddle that line pretty well. And certainly now that he's thankfully recovered from the coronavirus, he saw firsthand what all the doctors have been going through, what the scientists have been going through with trying to develop antivirals and vaccines. And I think that that's going to be top of mind for him as we move toward hopefully getting a vaccine out. I mean, I'm not sure that we're going to get one within the next few weeks, but certainly within the next several months.

MG: And so just to be clear, you think he has done a job that is worth not celebrating, but certainly a job that would lead you to support him again coming out of this pandemic?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: It's like the ship analogy, right? Like you don't really want to take out the captain away from the ship while we're still trying to steer the ship to the storm. And at the end of the day, I think that he's put things in place that have really tried to help the country move through it. And like I said, when it comes to debate, Vice President Biden and President Trump, whoever presents, I think, the better vision for how they're going to get the economy back on track, how they're going to get public health back on track. I think that that's probably going to be the candidate who Americans resonate with most because they want to have hope.

MG: So health crisis. But it's also an economic crisis. And we've seen small businesses across the United States. And on this little road trip that we've been on and talking about how they've been hit, your families in the restaurant business in Nashville. How has that business been affected by the pandemic?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: It's definitely tough, but we tried our best to kind of weather the crisis. You know, as Austin mentioned, the town is very much so involved directly in tourism. So it's been difficult for restaurants in Nashville and necessarily it's been difficult for our restaurants as well. It's been my dad's passion project for a really long time. He went to culinary school way back when. And he's worked in over a dozen different restaurants. It's just something that he's built his entire career around. So he's very passionate about trying to safely continue operating. And we're really looking forward to trying to get through the pandemic.

MG: If you believe the polls, not just where you are, but across the states, the polls are suggesting that Donald Trump is in a lot of trouble and could very well lose this election and could lose it badly. How concerned are you with that?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: We saw that back in 2016. The polls weren't necessarily as accurate when it came to estimating President Trump's victory in that race. We have a situation where we definitely need to see how it turns out, an election that we're seeing record numbers of early voters coming out. And I just early voting yesterday. We need to see how those people are going to vote. I mean, we're going to run into a situation, I think, this time around, as you rightly mentioned, where people are voting for perhaps the first time and they're being pushed to vote because they want to see us get out of the pandemic. And I don't think that necessarily a lot of pollsters I don't think anybody really has a good grasp on how those people are going to be able to move through the polls and how they're going to vote. It's just going to kind of be almost a surprise potentially on Election Day to see how many of these first time voters have voted and who they voted for. I think it could be really consequential for this election.

MG: When we were speaking with Austin, he said that one of the things that he wanted out of this and one of the things he thought that maybe you and he might share is as people on, as they say, different sides of the aisle is just that a desire to listen more and be open to listening more. The country is really divided right now. And we've heard that again time and time again in the conversations we've had in the lead up to the election. How do you get people to listen more and listen to each other more?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: That's a really tough question. And it's been one that I've been kind of trying to grapple with throughout my time in college and kind of going into law school, because we're in a generation where I don't think a lot of people are really listening to each other. And I think that more often than not, we're we're looking to demonise each other for the values that we have and upbringings that we have and values that we're taking to the ballot box rather than trying to understand what those people are coming from. So I think it's really good that Austin pointed that out. I do think that people need to be listening to each other more. I just saw a video on Twitter of the two meritorious candidates in Utah for a Stand United campaign. I think that's great.

MG: These are two guys that are running against each other. And they said that they didn't need to hate each other personally to be able to run against each other.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: And I think that's a great message. And believe me, there are a lot of situations where I found myself talking to [unintelligible] who necessarily believe different things to me. And, you know, I've never tried to come out of that thinking any less of them because they believe a certain way or want a certain candidate to win. I just don't think that that's going to be how we move forward as a nation where we're dealing with a public health crisis. And the last thing that we need to be doing is tearing each other down when we already have the virus trying to tear us down from within.

MG: So do you worry that the person that you're supporting for president has helped fuel that that division? That's, again, one of the strong accusations that's levelled at Donald Trump.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: We were divided long before President Trump took office. We were divided during the Bush years and we were divided during the Obama years as well. I don't think that that's necessarily wise directly at the feet of the current president. I think that it's incumbent upon everybody to work as active citizens to try and mend the divisiveness, because I don't think that one person can accomplish it all by themselves.

MG: I really appreciate your time this morning. It's great to talk to you, Alex. Thanks so much.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSKI: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Take care. Bye. Alex Schrakowski is a first year law student at Belmont University, and that is where the final presidential debate will take place tonight. We'll talk about that debate tomorrow on The Current. In the meantime, we're in the homestretch of this road trip. Next week, we cross the river into the state of Arkansas. You can catch up on all our stops by going to our Web site or go to cbc.ca/roadtonovember. On the topic of young people, yesterday, we put a couple of students to the test and got them to debate the merits of exams. This after some school boards cancelled exams because of the pandemic. It turns out a lot of you listening had strong thoughts on axing exams and the currents. Senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your comments. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Hello.

MG: You fan of exams at New.

KARIN MARLEY: No. I don't think a hundred people are still have nightmares about not finding the exam room. This is whatever, 20 years after I've taken my last exam. I'm going to start with some reaction to the debate between Bridget Salamon from Saskatoon, who is on the side of getting rid of exams, and Luka DiPietro in Grimsby, Ontario, who argued for keeping examinations. Kay McDonald tweeted: Now, that is how two civilised people debate. Excellent job. It makes me want to rip my hair out when I think of what we are subjected to south of the border during the presidential free for alls falsely advertised as debate.

MG: Also on Twitter, Paula Ardiles Gamboa wrote, I teach at Simon Fraser University Health Sciences, post-secondary students and have never given exams. I think there are ways that are far more fair and creative to measure learning. Today, with the added stress of COVID-19, it's more important than ever to put student mental health first.

KARIN MARLEY: Dana Bjornson tweeted What nobody discussed was how different subject matter necessitates different learning processes. For example, synthesising maths concepts versus historical concepts put different neurological demands on us. Hence the different assessment techniques are important.

MG: This from the email Gordon Walch wrote us from High River, Alberta, has a former high school teacher, principal and superintendent. I'm opposed to eliminating examinations while they shouldn't be the only tool used to measure achievement. They are useful in helping both teachers and students improve their performance. What gets measured gets done.

KARIN MARLEY: And one final letter from Chester, Nova Scotia. John Cowans writes, My congratulations to the articulate and well-prepared student debaters who will learn, sadly, that life is a never ending exam. As a school master. Over 50 years who set to market and discussed thousands of student exams. The preparation for life that exams give is truly remarkable. Your students will find soon enough that every day at work or at play is an exam of some sort. Look upon school exams as worthwhile preparation for whatever lies ahead.

MG: It's a good place to end. Karin, I'm pleased to know that I'm not the only one who still many, many, many years later has the exam anxiety dreams of you think you've done the exam and it turns out there's 30 more pages to go and there's no time left. Thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: Thanks.

MG: You can reach us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook or send us an email through the Web site. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. We love to hear from you on just about anything that we are talking about. Coming up after your regional update, Pope Francis makes waves by endorsing civil unions. What does this mean for the Catholic Church and for its LGBTQ members? We'll talk about that in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Pope's stance on same-sex unions an important step for Catholic Church: priest

Guests: Father James Martin, Joey Laguio, Sally Hubbard

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. "What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered". Those are the words from Pope Francis that are earning both praise and concern. He made those comments in a documentary that premiered in Rome yesterday, speaking about the rights of gay people to have a family and for civil union laws to be created. This is the first time he's backed same sex civil unions as pope. Father James Martin has made supporting LGBTQ Catholics a cornerstone of his pastoral approach. And he met privately with Pope Francis last fall. He is a Jesuit priest and the author of Building a Bridge to Book about LGBTQ Catholics. He is in New York City. Father, good morning.

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Good morning.

MG: How significant is this statement from Pope Francis that he supports civil unions for same sex couples?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: It's highly significant. He has said this before, when he was archbishop of Buenos Saida race and he's alluded to it in interviews, but this is the first time as pope that he's saying it so clearly on the record with so many people saying in this film. And it's a significant change in tone, certainly for the Vatican. And, you know, as you can see from the reaction, people are responding.

MG: I mentioned that you met with him privately. It was a 30 minute conversation about some of these issues. And I know that you keep a lot of that conversation private. What can you tell me about about what you discussed? And did you have a sense that he would be leaning in this direction?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Yes, I can't say what we talked about since you asked me to keep it private, but I can say that we did talk about LGBT people and LGBT Catholics, you know, for that whole half hour. But as I said, you know, he had already made these comments in Argentina. So I knew that he was already leaning in that direction. But again, it's the it's the fact that he's saying them now as pope, which is pretty dramatic.

MG: What happens now when he says them as pope? That, you say, is dramatic. Why is this dramatic, aside from the fact perhaps and that's it, that that he has said them, this pope.

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, in 2003, there was a document from the Vatican saying that the church couldn't support these kinds of unions. And so he's indicating that he thinks differently about it. I think one of the things that might change is that there are a lot of bishops around the world, in the United States and Poland and other places, who have been saying that same-sex civil unions are a threat to traditional marriage and have been really, you know, campaigning against them. And I think this is going to make them think twice before they talk about those things now, knowing how the pope feels.

MG: What are you hearing from the Catholic community about his support for it? And it's it's not gay marriage. It's civil unions. And there's there is daylight between those two. But what are you hearing from people in your community about this?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, from LGBT Catholics, they're delighted. I mean, obviously, there are some that would want to go further in terms of, you know, having, you know, wedding ceremonies for same sex couples in the church. But I don't think that's going to happen. But I think they're seeing this as another step in his outreach to LGBT Catholics, which he has been doing over the years, both in word and in deed, I mean, he's the first pope even to use the word gay, which is a significant step forward. He has gay friends. As you said, he met with me last year. He's been very pastoral in his approach. And I think people see this as another step.

MG: Conservatives within the church have pushed back against comments that he has made in past in support of the LGBTQ community. As you understand it, what's their reaction thus far?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: The reaction to this from many conservatives is great upset. And great concern. You know, one bishop last night asked for clarification. But, you know, if you see the documentary, it's pretty clear Minniti speaks in very sort of clear, direct terms about this.

MG: How much sway do they have within the Vatican itself?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, you know, we have to remember that the Vatican and church and Pope Francis is speaking to the whole world, so the United States bishops are, you know, one country, you know, albeit a powerful country. But, you know, the fact that one local bishop or two local bishops don't like it, I don't think really raises to the level of concern of the Vatican.

MG: You wrote a piece four years ago as a long, really powerful piece on a number of things, including compassion and forgiveness and sensitivity. And you asked a question about what it would mean for the church in the United States to say when needed. It is wrong to treat the LGBT community like this. This being with discrimination. Tell me more about about what it what it means for the pope to say that is wrong in some ways to treat a community with discrimination.

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, and you're right, and this is one of the things he said yesterday, which is that LGBT people should never be rejected from their families. You know, unfortunately, a good deal of the rejection from Catholic families comes from what they hear in mass. And what they hear from bishops. And honestly, LGBTQ people are treated like lepers in the church. And so one of the reasons I wrote that article was to reflect on some of the terrible experiences that I've been hearing. Really, they are singled out as the worst. The only the most sort of dastardly sinners in the church. And it's really shocking. So I really think the church basically just needs to listen to this community, which they so far have not done.

MG: And in his comments, I want to bring in another voice into this conversation. Just a moment. But in his comments in this documentary, will that change that tone? Will that change people, in your words, being treated like lepers?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: I don't know, I think it depends on the bishop or the priest, but I think, again, it's it's kind of a step. He's made many steps. He said, who am I to judge? He's talked about LGBT people, as you know, beloved children of God. He you know, that that whole tone and that whole approach has changed since he's taken over. So I don't think this particular thing is going to turn everything around, but I think it's another step in the right direction.

MG: Joey Laguio has been listening in in Vancouver. He wrote about his experience growing up gay and Catholic. Earlier this year. Joey, good morning to you. Good morning. What's it like having me? Thanks for joining us. What's it like for you to hear that Pope Francis supports same sex civil unions?

JOEY LAGUIO: I think at first glance, it's it's really encouraging. I'm really happy to hear about it, especially after so many years, I guess, of struggling internally and navigating the Catholic Church by going to Catholic school for so long and having sat through the masses, just like the reverend said. But I think. When I when I sit and think about it, it does represent more of like a tonal shift rather than a shift in doctrine, which I think. And I think the reverend also mentioned this was that I'm probably one of those people who thinks that more could always be done, even though I do appreciate those changes in tone. Of course.

MG: I mentioned your own experience that you'd written about it. Just tell me a little bit about about what that was like. I mean, when when when did you know you were gay and what was that like in in in sitting through, as you say, church services?

JOEY LAGUIO: Yes. So I was I think around maybe like 10 or 11 years old. And I again, I went to Catholic school all my life and I knew that I was gay around Ben. And I just remember sitting in the pew sitting through one of the masses and being told that, you know, being gay was something about being gay was intrinsically disordered, and lots of these things about how I would go to hell and things like that. And I think. It was very. It was very hurtful, I think, at the time, I just remember like sitting in the pew and my, like, cans shaking and 10 year old me just wanting to, like, cry and stuff. And it was definitely really hard, but it was also really mixed and conflicted because I had also experienced a lot of. I guess love from people in the church, maybe even if they didn't know I was gay. But. I experienced a lot of people who really actually did care for each other, even though a lot of people would like to put Catholics in a box of all gay haters. So it was very conflicting inside internally because I did experience so much love, but also so much. It felt like discrimination from at least a sermon level, if that makes sense.

MG: Yes. Father Martin was talking about how the pope's comments could perhaps create the conditions for for greater support within families, for example. You grew up in a Filipino Catholic community. Yes. If you would have heard comments like this, I mean, if you rewind it when you were that 10 year old sitting in the pew. Do you think that that would have shaped how that community around you, the Filipino community, could have embraced you in a different way?

JOEY LAGUIO: Oh, I definitely think so from a from a practical like day to day living standpoint. I do think it could have helped, especially because I probably would have been more likely to open up to my family, which I think. Like in a lot of ways is half the battle. Especially when you're struggling so much internally because you you want to share, you want to let your family and your friends know who you really are and to know that you. To know that the church itself wouldn't want you to be discriminated against, at least in terms of like kicking you out or something extreme like that. That's. That's pretty huge. From like, I guess, safety and security standpoint.

MG: Father Martin. You mentioned this earlier that that in many ways, gay marriage, civil unions, legal in North America, much of Europe as well. Where is it that a message like this really needs to be heard and perhaps could have some real traction?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, before I answer that, I want to apologise on behalf of the church, too, and to the other guests. Because no 10 year old boy should feel like that in church. So I hope Billy hope to hear that an apology. Thanks. No 10 year old boy should be should hear those things. No, no person should feel like they're being singled out in church. And unfortunately, his experience is very much like. Like many people's experience.

MG: Well, no, it picks up exactly on that because there are 10 year old children who are in communities, perhaps. Yes. Where gay marriage and civil unions are legal. But if you take a look at other parts of the world, they don't have those protections. And so what what would a message like this mean mean for them, do you think?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Oh, well, I mean, in places like sub-Saharan Africa and Eastern Europe and Latin America and India, you know, where gay people are really being persecuted by the church and where bishops even side with laws that criminalise homosexuality. I think this will be a, you know, really a relief. I think even more so, the bishops in these countries are going to be very challenged. I mean, in the United States and in the West and in Canada, we tend to think sometimes we tend to think, well, you know, OK, so the pope's in favour of civil unions. Now, big deal. Listen, if you're in Poland and you're a bishop who's been talking about LGBT people as a rainbow flag and comparing them to Nazis. This is really challenging. If you're in Uganda and you're a bishop and you've sided with criminalisation, homosexuality, this is a big deal. So what might seem really tepid to us is, you know, white hot in other places.

MG: Joey, what will show you, as you said, this is a good step. You know, we're always want to see more. What will show you that the words can lead to action?

JOEY LAGUIO: Yes, I think that's definitely a loaded question, but I would say from my opinion that some kind of change to the doctrine would be like the ultimate, at least for me, figure that someone who does considered themselves at least some kind of Christian, I think. Just the view that maybe I'm not intrinsically disordered or. Something's not inherently wrong with me or but I can. Lived my life closer to what, to the way I am more naturally feel, I think is the ultimate. I guess goal for me. That would make me feel better about the church's view. But yeah, because I think that the. I want to distinguish between, like changes to doctrine and tonal changes. I think we alluded to earlier, but again, not to minimise the the the changes in that direction, but I think for me, that would be the ultimate signal.

MG: Father Martin, for use in question, I mean, what would what would give Joey the confidence that this is going to be more than more than words, that actions could follow this?

FATHER JAMES MARTIN: Well, I think that's correct. I think that a lot of LGBT people really are looking for a change in words like intrinsically disordered and objectively disordered. I think there are no phrases that have hurt LGBT people as much. And if you listen to them, I also think, you know, frankly, just listening to the experiences of someone like Joey, I can call him that. Yes, that's a first step. I mean, bishops and priests for them to listen to what he's just said on the radio and how he's been treated and how he feels, I think is really important. The Holy Spirit works through the lives of people like him and not simply the pope or bishops. And I think we need to first listen before we can do anything.

MG: I really appreciate you both being here and speaking with us, but speaking to each other as well. Thank you both so much. Father James Martin is a Jesuit priest and author and editor at large of America magazine. Joey Laguio is an app designer in Vancouver who grew up gay in the Catholic Church. Your thoughts on that conversation is really powerful. You can reach us at thecurrent@cbc.ca, tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link.

Google faces antitrust lawsuit

Guests: Sally Hubbard

MG: This is indeed the current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. This week, the U.S. Department of Justice launched a landmark lawsuit against Google under what is known as anti-trust laws. The suit accuses Google of illegally maintaining a monopoly as a gatekeeper for the Internet. What exactly does this lawsuit mean for what you see and what you do on the Internet? Sally Harbord is here to help explain that. She's the author of Monopoly's Suck. Sally Hubbard, good morning.

SALLY HUBBARD: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. For people who don't know, just briefly, what is antitrust?

SALLY HUBBARD: So antitrust has been around for over a hundred years. It was it was incorporated in a very important law passed in the United States in 1898 called the Sherman Act. And when Senator Sherman introduced the bill, he said, if we will not tolerate kings, we won't tolerate kings of commerce. So it's always been about fighting concentrated power. And what it's essentially about is making sure that we have fair competitive markets where we don't have one company that can dominate and squeeze others out of the competition instead of just competing to be the best on the merits.

MG: You have said that when it comes to this case, your democracy in some ways hangs in the balance. Tell me why it's that important to you.

SALLY HUBBARD: All right, so going back to what I just said about kings of commerce, we've gotten to a situation in America where we're under a monopoly role in nearly every sector of our economy. Big tech has gotten the most attention and it's really only the beginning. But for the last about 30 years, we've been basically proceeding under a pro monopoly policy, not enforcing our antitrust laws, not using the other tools that we have to ensure that power is concentrated economically and politically, and to ensure that the American dream is alive and well, that if you innovate and you come forward with the hardest work and the best products, that you will be rewarded for your efforts. Instead, we have a situation. We have a few companies dominating every market, pushing all the other businesses around, controlling what consumers see, you know, and using abusive practises like in meeting users privacy. And it really does come down to democracy, because if you don't have the rule of the people represented by the democratically elected Organa represented democratically elected body. And instead, we're all being pushed around by private corporations. That's not democracy. That's actually fascism.

MG: Is the solution out of this thing. And people have talked about this around this case, but also and perhaps other anti-trust cases is to break the company apart. Is that, if you're talking about Google, is that the way to get out of it, being as the claim is that, you know, monopoly in terms of the gatekeeping of the Internet?

SALLY HUBBARD: Yes, I mean, usually breaking up corporations is the most extreme measure. But unfortunately, because we haven't been enforcing the antitrust laws against Google for so long, we are left with that as the main option here. And again, that's still only one piece of the puzzle. There's a lot of other regulations and reforms that we need, like privacy laws and rules about fairness, like neutrality and non-discrimination rules like net neutrality. So we need to do a bunch of different things. But in terms of antitrust, we really do need to break up Google at this point. This case of the DOJ has brought is very similar to what the European Commission brought against Google and it's Android case and a shopping case. And while the European Commission did a fantastic job investigating these these harms and, you know, ruling against Google now years ago, unfortunately, the remedies that it imposed have not been successful because what it did was it tried to get Google to change its behaviour. These are called behavioural conditions under antitrust law instead of actually changing the structure of Google. And we've seen that that just doesn't work. Google has way too much power, too many too many resources to withstand fines and too many different levers that it can push to distort competition so that it can actually make an end run around any kind of behaviour modification.

MG: So what would the world look like if you broke Google up and maybe broke up those other tech giants as well?

SALLY HUBBARD: I think that we've gotten to a point where we're so used to being under a monopoly role that we can't even imagine what the world would look like. So I recently testified in Congress about this as part of the other important work that's been happening in the US, the 450 page report that came out earlier this month from the House Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee. And I mentioned that I feel like we're suffering from a crisis of imagination, of what our lives could look like. So what I envision if we actually rein in these monopolies is that we would have a world where entrepreneurs can innovate. They have the opportunity to get funded and not being worried about getting crushed by any giant whose turf they're stepping on, that they can actually compete based on merit and not be just decimated from the competition. In fact, right now, most entrepreneurs can't even get funded if they're anywhere trying to compete in any respect with the tech giants. The venture capitalists just won't fund them. I also see a world where we can have diverse founders and ideas. Unfortunately, right now we have four major tech companies who are really setting the course of innovation so far that has been focussed on massive surveillance of the citizenry by collecting our data and tracking everything we do with the goal of showing us, you know, targeted advertising, which unfortunately also means we can be manipulated with disinformation and targeted messages precisely targeted at us based on our vulnerabilities. We have all kinds of problems in the world that need solving. And if we actually had opportunities for diverse innovators to come forward with new ideas, that could mean a lot. Also, every small business is now currently paying taxes and told to these tech giants just to reach their users. Even small companies, you know, have to spend thousands of dollars just to get their own business to appear when someone does a Google search under their business name. So what happens when these businesses have to pay these tolls to the tech giants? That means they've got less money to pay their employees. Means it's the harder to be an entrepreneur. It means those prices will get passed on to consumers. They have to charge their customers more. And, you know, just last, I would also envision a world where we don't have concentrated control over speech and the very detrimental effect that we're seeing from that.

MG: Benedict Evans is a tech analyst and an antitrust expert. He has a different take on this lawsuit. Take a listen to what he told us yesterday.

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The more people Google, the better it gets. And so that's a network effect. And people call it a winner takes all effect. It's kind of hard to break that apart. And it's hard to force people to use another search engine that isn't as good. And so I think when you look at a natural monopoly, when you look at the phone company, you don't say, well, we're going to break it up and give a line to one side of the street, to one company in the line from the other side of street to another. And so I think it's much more fruitful to think about how you might regulate the advertising business, which is actually much more consequential.

MG: Just in the remaining minute or so that we have, Sally. I mean, if you take a look at this from the user's perspective, his point is Google's algorithm makes it the best search engine because most people use it. And so for four people, would they be disadvantaged if you break this company apart?

SALLY HUBBARD: So it's not it's about making sure that we get competition and Google search. It's that we make sure that we stop Google from doing what it's been doing for years, which is use its monopoly and search to take over any market of its choice because it basically has control over how to direct users on the Internet. It can always direct users to its own services. There is evidence that more than 50 percent of Google searches end up on people's own Web properties. So even if you just take apart search and make that not in the same company, not own search and Android and Chrome and YouTube. Google has eight properties and eight businesses that have over a billion users. That doesn't make sense to have one company control all those different levers. So that's one thing. The other thing is, if you go on to say that Google search is a natural monopoly because it has network effects, then you need to regulate it with fair, reasonable and non-discrimination terms for every business and consumer that has to deal with it. But you also you know, we've dealt with network effects before. The railroads, they were a monopoly. They had a network. And AT&T, it was a network. What we do is we require both break-up and interoperability. And every time we've done that, we've seen new waves of innovation. We allow new innovators to basically be compatible with their networks. So, you know, you can't just say this is a monopoly and because of the network effect that we're just going to allow it to keep rolling speech and ruling commerce. That's just, you know, this is only one piece of what needs to happen. That's a very important piece.

MG: I appreciate you walking us through this. This is going to be a long case, but there's a lot at stake, p articularly to your point, in terms of how many people use the service and what it would mean if it were to be broken apart. Sally Hubbard, thank you.

SALLY HUBBARD: Thank you very much.

MG: Sally Hubbard is the author of Monopoly's Suck. She's a former antitrust enforcer with the New York attorney general's office. That's it for The Current for today. Stay tuned. CBC Radio one Q is next. Sam Roberts will be on the programme speaking about the 20th anniversary of his first album. He has a new album coming out. You'll hear him talk all about it with Tom Power. Speaking of music, we heard earlier about the impact the COVID-19 is having on the exercise industry and physical wellness. We were talking about Pikul Ballers in Vancouver worried about losing out on playing time because of COVID-19. Turns out that pickleball maybe didn't know this, are very passionate about their game. So passionate, in fact, that some of them were driven perhaps by pickleball madness, I'm not entirely sure, to sing about the game and about missing their fellow Pickler's during the pandemic. We'll leave you this morning with I Want to Dink with Somebody, Dink for all you non pickleballers is when you gently tap the ball over the net, the things you learn on The Current. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Have a great day. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Thursday October 22, 2020 Full Transcript

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