National affairs panel

Guests: Martin Patriquin, Salimah Shivji, Heather Scoffield

SOUNDCLIP

I've made it really clear, I'm going to Quebec. I'm gonna be going to Quebec again. Every time I go to Quebec, guess what they asked me? What's your position on 21? And guess what I say? I'm opposed to it. I think it's hurtful. I think it's divisive. I think it sends a message that people don't belong for what they look like. And I got a turban and beard. And I'm hoping that being in Quebec, by spy campaigning in Quebec and showing them what I look like at my values, it sends a message that hey maybe it's not a good idea to discriminate people based on the way they look.

DM: NDP leader Jagmeet Singh isn't the only one preparing to make his pitch to Quebecers. Four major party leaders will be in the battleground province tonight to take part in a French language debate on the TVA television network. It's a chance for them to try to gain votes and Quebec's 78 ridings and issues such as the religious symbols ban are bound to come up to talk about what's at stake and what else the leaders have been up to on the campaign trail this week. I'm joined by our rotating national affairs panel. Salimah Shivji is a senior reporter with the CBC Parliament Hill bureau. She's been following Conservative leader Andrew scheers campaign this week and we reached her in Montreal. Heather Scoffield is an Ottawa based economics columnist with The Toronto Star and she's in our Ottawa studio. And Martin Patriquin is a Montreal writer and commentator who contributes to various outlets including The Guardian, The Montreal Gazette and the Walrus. He's in our Montreal studio. Hello to you all.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Hi there.

SALIMAH SHIVJI: Good morning.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Hey.

DM: Martin Patriquin let me start with you. Why is the TVA debate thought to be so important for the federal leaders?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Few reasons. First of all you got to consider the fact that it's on TVA which is the biggest TV network in Quebec. They- it is owned by Quebeceur so what is on TV tonight will be blasted on the Web, will be blasted in print the day following, will be blasted on their internet radio station. They have a massive massive footprint in the province. The other thing too is you got to look at their core viewership. This is a viewership that sort of trends towards middle aged suburban. You know that they ring around Montreal and they trend very very nationalist. So you have a lot of eyeballs out there, potential votes, that are going to be watching. The other thing too is the format. It's head to head. So it's you know it's the various taking various of the leaders and putting them head to head on various different issues, which doesn't allow them to equivocate very much. There's more chance for exciting stuff for people like us. There's more chance - for lack of a better word - screw ups and it's quite an entertaining format.

DM: And Martin let me ask you something about the format. I mean People's Party of Canada leader Maxime Bernier and Green Party Leader Elizabeth May are not invited to this one, and neither party has won a seat in Quebec. So what difference does that make for the others?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: So respectively because Maxime Bernier is not there you're hearing Andrew Scheer breathe a sigh of relief. Because Green Party Leader Elizabeth May isn't there you're hearing Jagmeet Singh breathe a sigh of relief. They are basically removed from the equation and specifically what Jagmeet Singh saying it's good for him because there was a bit of a resurgence here of the Green Party, or there is a bit of research here in the Green Party, appearing on tell and a former NDP MP defected to the party right before the campaign started. So this would probably give both of them oxygen. Elizabeth May specifically is considered- what's the word - she's respected in the province. She has that great French that you know is good enough to be understood but bad enough to be sort of people pity her almost - for lack of a better word. So there is she has room to grow here. So it's probably good for the NDP that she's not here.

DM: You mentioned Elizabeth May's French. Salimah Shivju, you've been with Andrew Scheer’s campaign. French is not his strong point. What message do you think he'll be trying to convey in tonight's debate?

SALIMAH SHIVJI: Yes he is handicapped by that language for this debate. And of course the stakes are so high for him because he wants to be debating face-a-face against Justin Trudeau. So obviously Justin Trudeau much more comfortable in French. Much more- considered an accomplished debater. So Andrew Scheer may be breathing a sigh relief. Yes that Maxim Bernier isn't on the stage with him. But he has got to be a bit nervous. And you can see that in his agenda. He has this disadvantage in the language [unintelligible]. His team knows it. He is holed up all day today. He's staying away from the media has absolutely no events. Justin Trudeau also not doing that much but you know he has a boxing training event, a bit of a clichéd metaphor, but it sort of goes to show that his team is not as worried. I mean there are pitfalls for Justin Trudeau. But his team is not as worried linguistically as Andrew Scheer. So the stakes pretty high for sheer. I mean he has been getting practice. He was on Tous le Monde en Parle.

DM: How did he do on Tous le Monde en Parle?

SALIMAH SHIVJI: I would say his French has improved a lot..

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: And I mean people sort of said that you know that you know Chantal Albert from the Toronto Star sort of made mention that he didn't do very well. I don't think he could have done well at all because, a, his French is a second language, b, he's coming on a Montreal TV show that trends very very left. I think he actually did better than most people would give him credit for. There's two debates now having to do with gay marriage and the issue of oil. And I think he dealt with both as best as he possibly could, not to say that this was his most stellar performance ever by any means but I think he did much better than I would have given credit for.

DM: Heather Scoffield according to CBC's poll tracker liberals are ahead in Quebec. They're trying to hold onto their 40 seats there. What does Justin Trudeau have to do to hold on to the lead right now in Quebec?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: There's obviously very huge stakes for him he has to reach out to me hit the liberal base and come back is around the Montreal area and he has to reach out to so many those listeners and the viewers that TV reaches. I think you know this is all against the backdrop of 500,000 thousand people out in the streets of Montreal just last week marching about the climate. And I think you know he's got- that backdrop gives him an opportunity to really show what he wants to do. Especially without Elizabeth May there on the stage, he could really you know put forward that environmental platform. But it's difficult for him to do it in this context because it's not just Quebec viewers that are watching. The Quebec viewers are watching tonight but the message does go across the country eventually too, and he's got to tread that line about somehow he's going to deal with Alberta and the oil patch and energy development as well. So that's a bit of a difficult line for him to walk here tonight.

DM: Heather I'm curious. I mean how is is Quebec premier Francois Legault figuring into this whole thing.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Well that's it. He adds a whole extra element. I mean Trudeau has gone across the country pillorying Doug Ford and taking on other premiers. But it's a different dynamic with Francois Legault who has basically- he's thrown down the gauntlet to the federalist parties by saying where are you going to stand on Bill 21 and I want your commitment that you're not going to interfere in our affairs. That's a really easy one for the Bloc Quebecois to handle and it's easy for Jagmeet Singh to handle two because as we heard in the clip piece he's been very straightforward about where he stands on that. But it's a trickier one for four for Justin Trudeau. He's not been as straightforward on that and tends to waffle and you can tell he just doesn't want to answer that question. So it'll be interesting to see how he is pushed and pulled on that tonight.

DM: Then Martin Patriquin give us your thoughts on how that religious symbols law Bill 21 factors into all this.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Well Heather mentioned something interesting in there. So Bill 21 is - people may not know is essentially a law that prevents certain public servants, people in positions of power quote unquote, which includes teachers, bars them from wearing religious symbols on their bodies. And one of the things that has sort of come out is that it's been adversely affecting women who wear hijabs in the in the teaching sector. I don't like the law whatsoever. But the political fact of it is that it is a popular bill, popular with Quebeckers. And the fact that it was brought in by a government that still remains a year after they were elected massively popular, that is to say Francois Legault [unintelligible] to see a coup. So there's a reason that some of the leaders are tiptoeing around it. I agree with Heather that Jagmeet has been very forthright about his personal view about the law. But he has said and he said on Tous le Monde en Parle here in Quebec that he wouldn't challenge the law were he to take power.

DM: Martin, the new the new Democrats are expected to lose seats in Quebec.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: For sure.

DM: So what are what are just meetings chances of convincing Quebeckers who supported the NDP in the orange wave in the past to just deal with them now?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: He said something you know very idealistic at the beginning there, that he's sort of using himself as an example as to why you shouldn't be afraid of people in turbans and religious gear. He has 19 days to do that. And this is a longstanding issue in Quebec. And unfortunately, look, I'm not a fan of this by any means, but unfortunately his religious gear that he wears is a hindrance to him in this province.

DM: Salimah Shivaji you're talking about the Conservatives trying and hoping to make gains but there's another wild card in Quebec and that's the Bloc Québécois. Is the Bloc going to be getting in the way of some of the what the conservatives are trying to achieve?

SALIMAH SHIVJI: Yeah very much so when the attention has been on the Bloc Quebecois Francois Blanchet who has also been aligning himself with Francois Legault and the CAQ government sort of trying to bank on that popularity. And you see that rise a little bit that the Bloc is going up in the polls as becoming perhaps the choice, the second choice for a lot of Quebecers. And I think you'll see that dynamic as well on stage with the debate at TVA tonight and Yves Francois Blanchet is going to be grabbing this opportunity. And I would think he's perhaps one of the most interesting elements in this debate because it is his first one with those other leaders on the stage with him. And he will be pushing it on territory that Andrew Scheer and Justin Trudeau both want to talk about to get Quebec voters onside. So absolutely it is a moment for him to shine and to show what he can do against those leaders. And he will be trying to grab that opportunity.

DM: Let's shift gears from Quebec to spending. Heather Scoffiled, you've been talking and looking at what the parties have been promising in terms of spending looking at the Liberal platform in particular. How much is it all going to cost?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Lots. So those of the Liberals gave us the full cost a platform on Sunday and you know they're planning to run deficits indefinitely, 94 billion dollars in total, over four years. You know right in 2018-2019 the deficit was 14 billion dollars and then next year, if they're in government, it looks like it would pop up to 27 million dollars. Almost double. And there's some things in there that they're talking about that are still not fully costed out yet or we don't really know where they would end up such as the national pharmacare program. So it's interesting though because we don't have the conservative numbers yet. And they're kind of trickling out piece by piece but we don't have their full platform. But it's pretty clear that they will be also having a platform with lots of deficits. They talk about wanting to eliminate the deficit after five years. But you know that's after the next the next election. So you know there seems to be a consensus here that deficits are okay. Contrast that to ten years ago and it's very different.

DM: Well the conservatives and the Liberals are talking about deficits, so how do you think that voters are going to respond when it comes to spending more money?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: It's a good question because you know I had expected going into this campaign that the Conservatives would make a big deal about liberals being spendthrifts and not having any kind of fiscal discipline, and I think they will make that point in contrast to their five year target. But they're certainly not making that point very hard. I mean it's not at the top of their list of things that they criticize the liberals for. So you know there seems to be a general backing off. And the question is kind of more shifting and instead of to when will you get rid of the deficit. It's how will you restrain your spending and what kind of what kind of tool we use to discipline yourself to make sure it doesn't get totally out of control.

DM: That's really interesting. I mean the Conservatives are usually thought to be kind of the party of balanced books and fiscal restraint. Dslimsh Dhivji, how often has Andrew Scheer been talking about that when he meets with voters?

SALIMAH SHIVJI: It's interesting that he talks about it in rather vague terms and promises that you know we will get to balances, as Heather said, you know within five years. And we will give Canadian voters all that information before they go to vote. But no detail sort of in in what that means and how he's going to pay for the spending announcements in the tax credit and the other perks that he's been promising almost every day in his campaign so far. I tried to get an answer from him earlier this week just about when he will be releasing his fully costed platform. And he just keeps saying it will come in time for Canadians to make up their mind. So he's leaving that space for him for himself to wait. And he'll only commit to an exact date for his fully costed platform and come before advance polls, so that goes to not really wanting to talk about it.

DM: Mr. Scheer did promise to rollback spending in one area yesterday. Let's have a listen to that speech.

SOUNDCLIP

First, we're going to re prioritize foreign aid so that it is focussed on countries in greatest need while using the savings to help Canadians like you get ahead. Second, we are going to reinvigorate our traditional allegiances with countries that share Canadian values.

DM: Heather Scoffield, what do you think about shares plan Mr. shares plan to cut foreign aid by 25 percent?

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Well strategically it was a very interesting move yesterday because clearly if they’re going to eliminate the deficit after five years they have to make some choices and. And they haven't talked very much until now about what those choices are going to be. And so yesterday was kind of the first time that we saw very clearly what kind of choices Andrew Scheer will be making if he were to be elected. And so you know to choose foreign policy it's shocking in a way to go out and talk about cutting foreign aid. You know I'm not sure if we're hearing a huge cry across the country that that that we're spending foreign aid in the wrong places. But it is something that Maxine Bernier has been talking about and that's been something he's putting out there front and centre.

DM: So let's bring Martin in. What do you what do you think? Who's he trying to reach with a promise like that?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: He's trying to reach that two or three percent of voters who are considering going to PPC straight up. He's attacked the U.N. pact on migration. He's attacked for the foreign aid. He's used words like Canadian values. Those words have not been uttered by anybody except for Maxime Bernier up until this point. This was a very calculated move on his part.

DM: Martin Patriquin, when we're almost running out of time but I want to ask you about one other story that's happening in Quebec. Premier Legault, there are reports that he's going to offer an apology to First Nations and Inuit for systemic discrimination following the release of a major report this week by Superior Court Justice Jaques Viens. How significant is all that?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: It's significant in the sense that- so basically this report came about because of an investigation by [unintelligible] here at Radio Canada which basically shows that police officers SQ, Surete du Quebec officers in Val d'Or, had been abusing sexually and otherwise Indigenous youth there. And it's a fascinating thing because it was sort of - not to say that this was isolated - but this was in Val d'Or, about 500 kilometres away from Montreal. A report is as is done. And lo and behold you find all sorts of systemic racism in which shows that this is basically just one. So it was policing but it was also social services. It was corrections. It was Justice. It was youth protection, mental health services. So a very very big deal. The fact that he is entertaining an apology is also a very big deal because he- Let's put it this way: [unintelligible] Quebec wasn't elected by going after the Indigenous vote. And I think it's sort of seen as to how important is and how shocking this report is that he's offering an apology at all.

DM: Okay well we're going to be lots of interesting things to watch in the TVA debate tonight. And thank you we're going to have to leave it there, but thank you all for joining us for the discussion.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Thank you.

SALIMAH SHIVJI: Thanks.

HEATHER SCOFFIELD: Thanks.

DM: Salimah Shivji is a senior reporter with CBC's Parliament Hill bureau. She's in Montreal. Heather Scoffield is an Ottawa based economics columnist with The Toronto Star. She was in our Ottawa studio. And Martin Patriquin is a Montreal writer and commentator who contributes to various outlets including The Montreal Gazette. He was in Montreal studio. Last night The Current and Q held a special town hall at the Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto, it was called Two Shows. One Stage. Your Vote. We heard from first time voters including Ryan beardy Who's Cree/Saulteaux from Lake St. Martin First Nation. He's a volunteer with Winnipeg's Indigenous Rock the Vote. Here's what he had to say about the issues that are motivating him to vote.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, justice issues. I think that's often overlooked. I think we need justice reform. We need a lot being done. Like I said I was incarcerated and I'll tell you all the truth, it was mostly brown in there. And it is disproportion and that exists in this country. And I saw that for four years and I saw that the ratio skew and I saw that with my own eyes when I got out I looked at the statistics and it's true. And these statistics have been studied but what's being done about it. Acknowledgement is great but we need address as well as I believe in our environment. I believe in a need to [unintelligible]. We believe that we were put here as stewards of the land to protect it and we see we're undergoing a climate crisis right now. And that's very important to me.

DM: You can hear more from our panel of first time voters about why they think voting is a right worth celebrating, as well as what audience members had to say about why this election is important to them. That's on our on tomorrow's special town hall edition of The Current. The CBC News is next. Then:

SOUNDCLIP

I am here because of the justice of justice for Jamal.

DM: Justice for Jamal. The late Saudi journalist's fiancée isn't the only one looking for answers. A year after the disappearance and murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Coming up in our next half hour we'll examine dissent and persecution in Saudi Arabia today. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

Critics say the West has failed to keep pressure on Saudi Arabia since Khashoggi killing

Guests: Areej Al – Sadhan, Ahmed Benchemsi, Bessma Momani

DM: Hi I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

DM: Still to come: Stompin' Tom called it the best game you can name. But are Canadians falling out of love with the good old hockey game? That's in half an hour. Before that: the state of dissent in Saudi Arabia a year after Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance and death.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It's an ominous image, Jamal Khashoggi on security camera video entering the Saudi consulate last Tuesday. It's the last time he has been seen in public.

VOICE 2: Was he murdered by the Saudis and did the prince give the order to kill him?

VOICE 3: Nobody knows yet but we'll probably be able to find out. It's being investigated. As of this moment, they deny it and did not deny it vehemently.

VOICE 4: The Saudis now say he was killed in a fight that broke out inside the building.

VOICE 5: Everyone said that it was planned days in advance and included reconnaissance missions by Saudi officials to the forests around Istanbul.

VOICE 6: In his first public statement about the murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman acknowledges responsibility but distances himself from the murder.

DM: It started out as a disappearance then an accident and finally confirmed as murder. It was one year ago today that Saudi dissident and journalist Jamal Khashoggi went missing after entering the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul Turkey. But as you just heard the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman maintains he didn't order the killing. The eyes of the world have been focussed on the kingdom since Khashoggi's murder but critics insist that nothing has really changed in the past year. Abdulrahman Al-Sadhan went missing more than six months before Jamal Khashoggi. His sister Areej al-Sadhan joins me now. She's asked that we not disclose her location. Hello.

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: Hi. Thank you for having me.

DM: Glad you could join us. Your brother had already been missing for months before Jamal Khashoggi was killed. What impact did his murder have on you?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: It's a huge impact. Seriously I mean the moment we heard about the Khashoggi murder we were just frightened because at that point it's been already six months since my brother disappeared and we weren't able to communicate with him or reach him at all. And we were just waiting and hoping that there is probably a system that we were going to hear at some point. You know we're going to be able to contact him at some point but after hearing about this horrific incident our fears just went to the roof. Like, Oh my God. If this could happen to a Saudi journalist, what could have happened, actually, what is happening right now to my brother. Is he still alive? Is he facing the same fate as Jamal is? Basically just all sort of fear together in our heads and we were like completely frightened.

DM: We'll take us back. I mean you said your brother disappeared. What happened to him?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: So on March 12th 2018 and that was during the mass crackdown on that critics and human rights activist and so forth in Saudi Arabia. During that day, March 12th 2018, eight men dressed in police uniform went to my brother's office in the Red Crescent headquarters in Riyadh. And basically they took him. They took him with them to an unknown place. We don't know where they took him. Basically from that moment. He just disappeared and we weren't able to contact him, reach him. And according to the witnesses he was he was detained without a warrant. And he went he had no access to any legal right.

DM: Was he an activist or a dissident?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: No he's not. I mean, publicly, not at all. He's not. His name is not known not at all. If anything he would have criticized probably or you know expressed his opinion possibly on social media but not publicly. So it's really shocking that why would they target people who are not publicly- if they have a problem with freedom of expression, why would they go to such measures you know to to attack even people who are not public.

DM: So what was he doing in Riyadh?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: He was working as a humanitarian aid worker at the Red Crescent.

DM: So when he disappeared, I mean what was it like for you two to hear that he he'd just suddenly been taken away?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: It was really shocking. We were all scared. We were all frightened. But at the same time we thought, okay, let’s just call the Saudi official. Let's follow up maybe there is a mistake. Maybe there is a misunderstanding. And basically we kept going day by day, believing that and hoping that we were going to receive an answer, we are going to get some information. But none of that happened. So our fears just kept growing and growing. And you know until the months went by and now a year went by, then a year and a half. And right now at 19 months and so we're in the same place. We know nothing about my brother.

DM: They haven't told you about why he was taken?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: No they haven't told up nothing at all.

DM: Have you heard anything about his treatment?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: Yes actually. There were a couple of sources who informed us that he was being tortured. That As he was being severely tortured and that his life was in danger. And because of you know how the situation in Saudi Arabia, people are so scared to reveal any anything about their you know where their sources are or who they are and so forth. So there was a huge ambiguity around you know the source and all that. I tried to get more information but that's all they can tell me which is even more frightening because you know all I see is a call for help but I am helpless. I can't do anything.

DM: Areej al-Sadhan I got someone else standing by I'd like to bring into the conversation now. Ahmed Benchemsi is a former investigative journalist now working with Human Rights Watch which is demanding more international pressure on Saudi Arabia over Mr. Khashoggi is killing. We reached him in Casablanca, Morocco. Hello.

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Hi. Thanks for having me.

DM: Ahmed Bencemsi most people know that the horrific details of Mr. Khashoggi is killing. How common are stories like Abdulrahman al-Sadhan, people who were detained or have disappeared in Saudi Arabia?

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Well unfortunately I don't know the specifics of this case but I am happy to look into it and ask my colleagues to look into it. But unfortunately there are many many cases in Saudi Arabia that are- I'm not surprised to hear this story because there have been other stories like this because we have documented countless cases of arbitrary arrests, of unjust incarceration, of alleged torture and detention centres. And I mean there's that horrific [unintelligible] specific detail that that was heard all around the world that has become a symbol now of the extent to which the Saudi government can go to punish dissidents.

DM: It was heard around the world and of course it's the anniversary now. It's been one year. How much damage has Mr. Khashoggi's murder caused to Saudi Arabia's reputation.

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Well not enough I would say. Because there has been damage and the pressure has been tremendous in the first weeks or maybe month that followed the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Because if you remember the Saudi authorities started by denying any kind of involvement then under the intense international pressure they finally admitted responsibility, and they admitted that he had been killed by operatives of the Saudi government and then many more details. However it seems that the pressure has not been sustained. Would that, you know, extent and that level of pressure since the past year because now many governments and businesses are just eager to resume business as usual and returning to their profit making activities in Saudi Arabia. And this rich oil country and there's not much pressure being put forward now. And we and other human rights organizations, alongside the U.N. by the way, and the special rapporteur on extrajudicial killings [unintelligible] are trying to put more pressure against Saudi Arabia, so that information is disclosed and the truth is made around this murder.

DM: You suggest there needs to be more pressure. Areej al-Sadhan, what made you speak out about your brother?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: Well because we haven't got any answers. We've tried every possible way we've tried to reach out to these Saudi officials. We tried to use the old fashioned ways as we know that they did before and nothing worked at all. So it's completely a new thing for us. Like why are we not getting any answer or any follow up? Why every door we knock get closed? We try faxes, letters, phone calls, using connections, any people we know who can help but none of that works. So we were left with no option and my conscience been troubling me for a whole year. Why should I stay silent. It's horrific. It's a human rights violation and it's not just my brother's. There's so many other people who are probably facing the same fate and they can't even talk. And I was thinking, well, if those people cannot talk and I cannot talk then who is going to talk. You know someone has to talk. And from that moment I said, well, I'm going to just wait until the end of the year and then I'm just going to go. I'm just going to start talking because this is too much to stay quiet.

DM: You ask us to with your location, Areej al-Sadhan, why?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: To be honest I don't feel safe as as a dissident. I don't really call myself dissident. I'm only speaking- I started to speak up because of what's happening to us with my brother. But I've never been an activist before. But right now I don't feel safe that I'm actually talking publicly about this violation and this incident or this disappearance with everything comes with it, in terms of human rights violation. So in terms of why I'm not disclosing because I'm careful about my safety and it's part of my safety procedure that I don't want to disclose my location at the moment.

DM: Benchemsi, I'm wondering going back to the Khashoggi case for a second, what did you think about Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's comments about the killing?

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Well you said that he takes responsibility but not the blame. That's basically the idea. And as the American comedian said the difference between blame and responsibility is those who take the blame lose their jobs and those responsible do not. Now more seriously, even taking responsibility but not the brain has consequence. For international crimes such as torture, commanders at the highest level can be held liable as well for crimes committed by the subordinates. So if the Crown Prince is saying is that, well, I didn't order the murder myself however I'm responsible of the acts of my subordinates. Fine. There's a principle called the command responsibility, principle of command responsibility, and he should be questioned about that too. So if he takes responsibility, great, then he should provide transparency into the ongoing trial of the people who are tried for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and which we know absolutely nothing about. There has been very little information provided about this trial. It's a trial that is shrouded in secrecy and we don't even know the names of the people who are indicted. So if the crown prince is taking responsibility, let him start by providing transparency around that trial and then releasing everything he knows about the planning, the execution and the aftermath of the murder of Khashoggi. Then we'll see if he's serious about responsibility or not.

DM: So you're calling for more transparency, more details, more facts about what happened. What do you think the international community should be doing about cases like Mr. Khashoggi and Abdulrahman al-Sadhan?

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Well it should certainly pressed for more transparency and more cooperation with the U.N. I think you should start with that. Get full cooperation with the U.N. and also there is leverage that the international community can and should use. There should be targeted sanctions on members of the Saudi leadership responsible for human rights violations and there are many besides Mr. Khashoggi's ghastly murder. And these sanctions should be maintained until the violations end. And they are well documented these [unintelligible]. If I just to go to our website and [unintelligible] of other human rights organizations, you have got a trove of details. Also we are asking countries that are doing business with Saudi Arabia, especially selling them advanced surveillance equipment to halt those [unintelligible].

DM: Well that's a good that's a good jumping off point to bring in our next guest, Bessma Momani into our into the conversation. She's a professor at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. She's in Waterloo, Ontario. Hello.

BESSMA MOMANI: Hi.

DM: A year after Mr. Khashoggi is death, Bessma Momani, how are political and business leaders from around the world engaging with Saudi Arabia?

BESSMA MOMANI: I have to agree with Ahmed. Unfortunately it is business as usual now. I think we saw last year at the so-called Davos in the desert. Certainly a lot of CEOs and executives tried not to be seen there. We had cancellations but frankly they sent other people in the C suite to go attend anyways. This year I think the stakes are even higher because Saudi Arabia is about to put in probably where the largest public offerings of a company in the world, that's Aramco. And I think it's going to drive a lot of businesses to go there to see what's going on and to invest. At the end of the day Saudi Arabia has many many many flaws in its foreign policy. Probably the worst of the things that I think is problematic. But when it comes to economic development and growth people who are in the business community see opportunities.

DM: Ahmed Benchemsi you mentioned the sale of armoured vehicles. Over the weekend there were reports that a Canadian made light armoured vehicle was captured by Yemen's Huthi rebels in a cross quarter cross border battle with the Saudi forces. Bessma Momani how concerned should we be Canadians be about the Saudi government using Canadian made military vehicles?

BESSMA MOMANI: I think we should always be concerned. Obviously that is an important part of the regulations that we put on these types of vehicles that they're not being used in a war setting. But I think the challenges, and to be very frank, you know where the Huthis terrorized people on the ground the Saudis terrorize people in the skies. And so when it comes to Yemen in fact the greatest damage, the greatest sort of Saudi infliction of pain and suffering, is not on the ground. It's not through lives. It's through frankly the aerial assault bombing that is indiscriminate, poorly targeted and just I think morally bankrupt. And so that is all American made products. It's all frankly up to Congress which is very concerned. There are a lot of Democrats and even Republicans who are very concerned about stopping that trade because it is the source of greatest, I think, death toll in Yemen today. It's not to absolve us from responsibility. But I think if we are going to put pressure as civil society and as academics and experts we really have to go to where the source of the biggest problem is.

DM: Well but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced a review of Canada's deal with Saudi Arabia after Mr. Khashoggi's death. What's happening with that?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well I think everybody's waiting till after the election. But I think none of the political parties really want to touch this sincerely. We've heard I think some positive rhetoric from the NDP. But at the end of the day they're also very concerned about union votes throughout London where much of these labs are produced outside of London and by General Dynamics. And so I think there is an enormous amount of hypocrisy going on when it comes to us all espousing you know great human rights values but still selling armaments. And it's a bigger problem than just the LAVs. I'm not saying we don't need to focus on LAVs. but you know we're in the trade, we're in the business of selling armaments. And I've heard this before and I think we need to really think about this and that you know people who buy or governments who buy armaments out there in the world today are not doing it because they are the most loved or frankly the most just. Countries that need these kinds of military grade equipment are ones that frankly are probably repressing and oppressing their people and there's plenty of governments out there.

DM: Denmark Finland Germany they all stop the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia after Mr. Khashoggi's murder. How significant was that in terms of sending a message.

BESSMA MOMANI: Frankly it was all rhetoric and messaging but not really substantive because they don't really have a big arms trade with Saudi Arabia. They're not even in the top five. So you know again it's easy to say we're not going to sell something that they don't sell. And that's really the problem there's a lot of rhetoric, a lot of so-called commitments out there. But they're quite empty. At the end of the day, governments who are in this business - and there are plenty and the United States is obviously the biggest, other countries like France and Germany Russia of course are all in the same trade. We are there. We're not certainly the top but we're there. But you know I think again these countries many Western liberal democracy democracies are very hypocritical about this. They selectively choose who they're going to say that they're not selling to based on frankly where there is no business anyways.

DM: These are valuable contracts. I mean Saudi Arabia's deal with the Canadian company, General Dynamics Land Systems Canada, that's valued at about 15 billion dollars. Apparently the Saudi government is behind on its payments. What does that mean for Canadians?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well I think frankly it's a leverage or it's a way of really getting back at Canada for its infamous tweet last summer that we saw from the embassy and Chrystia Freeland against Saudi Arabia. I think there is some politics behind there. They're not behind on payments for nothing but you know it's a challenge in the sense that we are, I think, in a trade that is highly highly problematic. I think Canada should review that very sincerely. But increasingly it's very difficult for governments to commit to that because at the end of the day it is about jobs and it's a very political issue. There's 2000 jobs in the lab deal in London Ontario and I think for many of those who are in the trade, and the entire 401 beltway throughout Toronto is very much involved in this trade. And it's a very complicated one that people need to think about if we're going to be in it or not.

DM: Areej al-Sadhan, I want to bring you back into the conversation again. You spoke about your brother's case last week at the United Nations. What kind of message did you have for the U.N. there?

AHMED BENCHEMSI: Well my message was calling on the international communities, calling on the United Nations and world leaders to act as soon as possible, because this is not only threatening a small number of people. This is threatening national security. This is affecting people who are not even living in Saudi Arabia. I myself am an American. My mom is an American. And I know several other Americans who are actually touched by this and affected by this. So this is getting- I mean if they're ok with just staying quiet about it this is going to escalate into something bigger. I would be out of hand. Besides this is a human right, huge human rights violations that they're just dismissing and giving a blind eye. So that was the main thing I wanted to deliver in the United Nations side event, besides you know highlighting the case of my brother, enforced disappearance for 19 months. A year- over a year and a half is not something that is okay just to happen and normalize. This is something had to be brought to the table and have to be discussed internationally because there is something seriously wrong going on.

DM: I'm trying to get a sense of the kind of the international reaction. Bessma Momani, mentioned the Davos conference. Saudi Arabia's hosting that Davos in the desert which is a major investment conference. There were a number of business executives that cancelled last year. How are things looking for the conference?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well I think the Saudis are being smart and not releasing too many the names of the participants. But I think when it comes to the actual event we're going to see a lot of faces that are very familiar in the business community. There is a hunger out there sadly. I think there is enormous appetite for investing in Saudi Arabia when it comes to the construction industry, engineering, oil and gas, certainly I think telecommunications. There's enormous growth there because the government is investing a lot of money in infrastructure and there is a growing middle class that now has new opportunities to buy certain products and services. So it is a lucrative market and out there globally there isn't a lot out there in terms of where businesses are going to invest. That is in no way I think suggesting or encouraging it, it's just a reality of you know that in the day business executives are not accountable to the dissidents and to the opposition - who I wish they would be - but they're not there to their shareholders and they need to find profit. And yes Saudi Arabia has an opportunity to provide them profits.

DM: Areej al-Sadhan, how optimistic are you that that the killers of Jamal Khashoggi will be brought to justice and that eventually you'll find out what happened to your brother.?

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: I'm usually an optimistic person but in that specific case unfortunately I'm so very disappointed. Usually when this is such a horrific accident or incident happened officials or people who are responsible they will rush into finding a solution and trying to fix whatever can be fixed. And you know whether introducing new measures to protect people, to prevent this from happening again. But now we are looking at a one year anniversary after this horrific murder and still you know human rights just keep declining in Saudi Arabia. The stories just keep coming every day. There's new people being detained. We hear new stories of torture. New people being disappeared. I mean I love Saudi Arabia. And I love Saudi people and this is one of the reasons why I'm actually feeling really devastated and trying to talk about it. So after one year if there is something not done and there is no change no positive change so far, it's really worrying. I would like to be optimistic but until we start to see actual change then we are realistic. But at this point I'm not, you know, I'm just you know I'm still really worried about the future of Saudi Arabia and human rights over there.

DM: I want to thank you for sharing your brother's story with us and thank you all for sharing your analysis.

BESSMA MOMANI: Thank you.

AREEJ AL-SADHAN: Thank you.

DM: Areej al-Sadhan's brother Abdulrahman al-Sadhan was detained by Saudi authorities more than 18 months ago and hasn't been heard from since. Ahmad Benchemsi is a former investigative journalist now working with Human Rights Watch. He was in Casablanca, Morocco and Bessma Momani is a professor at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. She was in Waterloo, Ontario. We did ask for comment from Saudi Arabia's embassy in Ottawa but didn't hear back. Well coming up in our next half hour:

SOUNDCLIP

Hockey's issue is that for years its marketing plan was 'hey, it's getting cold outside. Come out and play hockey. Door's open' and we'd all go and we'd all play hockey. That's how we spend our winters. Canada's not like that anymore.

DM: It's hard to imagine Canada without hockey but with stagnating enrolment and a new generation embracing other sports the game might be on thin ice. Duncan McCue you're listening to The Current.

'Adults can ruin anything': Kids' hockey is facing a crisis in Canada, says author

Guest: Sean Fitz-Gerald

DM: Hi I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. Most Canadians probably recognize that sound the inside of a hockey rink. Kids on the ice. Parents in the stands, sipping warm drinks. It's here where the game is usually played these days, no longer out on frozen ponds with anyone who shows up.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I love playing hockey because it lets me hang out with all my friends and just like be out on the ice. In a week I spend about 15-20 hours at the rink. I had a friend. He just dropped out this year because it was getting too much for him like too much driving, too much money just like all of it's gathered.

VOICE 2: A lot of kids choose basketball nowadays but for me was I want him to experience what I did when I was a kid, right. And don't get me wrong it's definitely an expensive sport. 'No Dad. It's not worth it if I can over 300 all the hockey stick.' What do you need a 300 dollar hockey stick for?

VOICE 3: As soon as they could learn to walk, they had pair skates and we just put them into hockey. So my husband and I we just kind of look at each other the morning often, and we're like, okay, this is what our plan is for the day. You take that one. I'll take this one and you just divide and conquer.

VOICE 4: Oh there's definitely a commitment but I mean you do it because your kids are wanting to do it right. Like you don't graduate get out of bed to do this. If the kid has to be dragged out of bed you don't take them. I don't look at that as sacrifice would be the cost of the game. I remember the first year cost seventy 75 for registration. And at the end was costing it on the 15,16, 17 thousand dollar bracket.

DM: 300 dollar hockey sticks. Oh boy. Well with thousands of dollars spent on high level training somewhere that hockey is losing its fun element. Sean Fitz-Gerald is a sportswriter and the author of Before the Lights Go Out, A Season inside a Game on the Brink. He's in our Toronto studio. Hello.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Hello.

DM: I saw you nodding while you were listening to some of those parents and I think so many Canadians when they think of hockey they think about ball hockey in the streets, and the icy cold pond and Sidney Crosby you know shooting pucks off the dryer. But you were nodding when that young boy was talking about dropping out of hockey. I mean what do you hear from people involved with grassroots hockey about how fun hockey is anymore?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Well I mean in one way you know adults can ruin any good thing. If you close your eyes and you think about what is hockey in Canada maybe you think of the Roch Carrier story, The Hockey Sweater. You know everybody's going down to the pond. The famously that you only go to school to think about hockey. And you go down there, there's not a lot of adults yelling that you're just down there skating on a frozen pond. I mean for a bunch of reasons that's just not the case anymore. You know there are professional skills coaches for skaters and goalies. There are you know the 300 dollar hockey sticks. But the costs just aren't the concrete ones, there are soft costs. Do you have the ability to get out of work to get your child to a 5 p.m. practice across town? Do you have the ability to take a Friday off of work - I hope my bosses aren't listening - because your children have a hockey tournament? That all of these things are barriers. We've allowed to grow up around the game and are now becoming a real challenge for entry.

DM: You mentioned Roch Carrier and his famous book The Hockey Sweater, which is so much- it's iconic now in Canada. You spoke with him though about his assessment of the game today. What did he have to say?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: That was a treat. I'm not going to lie to you. Sitting down in his living room. I could have still been sitting there listening to the stories he'd tell that. I mean it's so much of I think that you know the Canadian imagination about our relationship to hockey and what it means to us can be traced back to that. And it's nationwide. It really is a remarkable short story. You know he talked about growing up in Saint Justin, Quebec and you know what the game was. And that is sort of an autobiographical recount of what his childhood was. And now he has a great story that he's sort of tells that he walks down, he lives in Montreal. He walks down to the local rink and he said he went to boarding school and the bags that he sees these kids pull out of these SUV to go play hockey are bigger than the ones he took to go to boarding school. And the kids are yelling at the parents and the parents are yelling at the kids. And he says that it's not a game anymore. It's a job. I thought that was a great way to sum up that, at the high level, if you're playing, you know, like the child in the clip off the top 15-20 hours. If you're playing competitively it can sometimes feel like where.

DM: Your kids are involved in hockey?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: My eight year old is and my four year old daughter starts hockey school in a few days.

DM: It doesn't feel like a job to you being a hockey dad sometimes?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: I am an assistant coach. I've coached his house league team. I've coached my [unintelligible] and his competitive team. And for me again because I have flexibilities and we're fortunate that we can afford the costs both economic and the soft costs. We have a car. I found the real passion in the game that maybe I didn't understand before- And it's one of the reasons I wanted to pursue this book is that you know I really understood the power of hockey, and that sounds really strange to say in 2019. But you know we have met the literal butcher baker and candlestick maker of our community that we might not otherwise have met because we're all sitting around the cold arena drinking terrible arena coffee. And we're up the ungodly hours watching these children play. And these children are forming bonds outside of school. They're physically active for one which can be a challenge today. Two, they're learning how to function in a team and they're having fun and the fun is the key. But it doesn't feel like a job for us, but I can understand why it would for four other yet.

DM: I mean your book is called, the subtitle, A Season inside a Game on the Brink. I mean you describe quite bluntly your assessment that hockey as we know it is in a state of crisis right now. Why?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Well because of the barriers. There are barriers to entry that didn't exist before. If you don't have the money, if you don't have the time, that's one barrier. But, two, and this isn't so much a barriers, it's a barrier here for hockey executives. There are other opportunities that we are, what, 36 million people who think it's a really good idea to live in the frozen half of North America. So in the old days, and old days being maybe when I was a kid and when you were a kid, what you could do in the winter? Chances are you going to play hockey right. Frozen pond, go down to the rink. All you need are gloves, not even a helmet. Not that long ago. And you could play. But now you have e-sports. You don't have to leave your house. You can play basketball and that's growing as the Toronto Raptors have shown that their NBA championship games are 7.7 Million Canadian eyeballs. You can play soccer year round or you cannot play sports at all. And because Canada's changing, and that's a good thing, so too are some of the tastes.

DM: And as a result I mean hockey Enrollment is dropping isn't it'

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: It's stagnant. I mean nationally it's stagnant but there are a lot of areas where you can go and it's acute. You know we focus the book here in Peterborough. The Minor Hockey ,Association president, at the time that we were reporting it, they'd been losing 100 players every year for three years. And there are outreach, hockey outreach programs that would go into local schools across Ontario and try and introduce the game and they went into one in Peterborough. A couple hundred meters away from the Peter Peterborough Memorial Center where the Peterborough P.D. play and they went down to an assembly and there were 400 kids there and they said Okay everybody who plays hockey? 400 kids. No hands, which is amazing to think about.

DM: I'll reveal here that I spent some of my youth growing up in Peterborough. So that's a pretty remarkable thing to hear. I mean I was an avid Peter Birrell Petes fan myself as a kid. I remember being in the mama center and I place just being electric for the whole town. Watts why did you choose the Peterborough piece to spend a season with them and what did that tell you about the state of hockey right now.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Yes we were trying to think what's a good hockey town that could represent, certainly not just you know Ontario, but try and explore some themes that are nationwide. And Peterborough you know whether or not you have a relative who played for the Petes or a friend who played for the Petes maybe you had somebody [unintelligible] a Peterborough Pete and that's where Pete's coming live with you and you get them food and shelter and- everybody in that town somehow has a connection directly to the Peterborough Petes or to the game itself. You know there are those frozen ponds up there. There is that real proud tradition. Not that long ago where hockey and Peterborough were intertwined inextricably linked. You know the cliché somebody went to a beach in Acapulco wearing their Petes hat and somebody said 'go Petes go'. Where did that come from? So it seemed like Peterborough would be a good stand in for the rest of Canada.

DM: And so for a group full of kids to put up their hands and say they're not playing hockey in Peterborough says something I mean. And you mentioned the costs. We heard that parent there talk about the cost being 15, 16, 17 thousand dollars a year.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: That's at the exceptionally high end. I think, without knowing, that would be a Triple-A level. So Hockey, generally when you get above the age of 10 or 11, single A, double A, triple A are some of your highly competitive options. And at triple-A those are the kids who usually go to play junior hockey to play for the Petes. And you know you have your skills Coaches you have your camps where you go for a week long to work with professional trainers and those costs add up quickly.

DM: How much as you're starting out in your hockey dad journey, I mean when you're talking to parents. I mean one of the parents in your book talks about having to invest in an RV to drive around, to get his son to games. How much do parents get caught up in the machinery that is minor hockey in Canada?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Are you asking if you can borrow my RV? Is that what you're saying.

DM: Yes absolutely.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Yes, no, we have a modest 30 foot RV. We don't like to brag about it. But I mean it's true that I think you know the cliché again is you think little Johnny is going to go to the Olympics or a little Jimmy's going to go to the NHL and I mean certainly there is that segment. But I really do think now that I'm sort of in it personally, you just want the best for your kids. And you don't want your kid to be left behind. So if their friend group is moving on to a different team you know at eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 you don't want them to be rejected. You don't want to hear them say I didn't make the team. Because you're wearing your heart on your sleeve that's what your kid is and you want to give them every opportunity. So if you have the ability maybe you send them to that 800 dollar one week camp, maybe you do all of these that didn't exist a generation ago but do now because there is a lot of money to be had in the minor hockey system.

DM: There are some efforts to try to increase the participation rates for hockey in Canada. In Winnipeg there's a charity called the [unintelligible] project that helps immigrant and refugee kids take to the ice. That's where we found Emir Tom who's eleven and Colin Cole who helped him learn to skate.

SOUNDCLIP

EMIR TOM: They're apprehensive at first and a little nervous and a lot of the times they think skates are too hard to wear. I'm going to go out there in my shoes without realizing that's harder. Then they realize. Once they start skating how fast they can move. It's kind of like flying, we usually tell them.

COLIN COLE: I can go fast when I'm skating and I'd like to learn hockey because it's fun. My shoe team is Winnipeg Jets, yes.

EMIR TOM: He progressed in skating very quickly. I think it was his first skating program and he was already developed into a strong skater so that was a really rare thing for us to see right now. That's a major thing we're trying to look into how we can help our children play hockey long term rather than just do it as an activity every now and again.

DM: You spoke to people at the newcomer Centre in Peterborough where local teams are trying to bring in new Canadians or children of new Canadians particularly. How easy was it for those families to get their kids into hockey?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: The new Canadian Centre in Peterborough does incredible work and over the years the two people who - the executive at that time they didn't know any clients who found their way into the game in Peterborough. In fact they said the Peterborough Petes did wonderful things like giving them blocks of tickets to say, hey, come out experience the game, feel what it's like to be part of this community for free on us. Come have a hotdog, soda pop, whatever you want. And they said you know we can't always give them out when people don't want them.

DM: Was it because you know cricket is more popular, or soccer's more popular, whatever it may be or was it something deeper than that?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: It can be everything. You know if you're from Italy, you're from Hungary or you're from India, you can watch products from where you grew up whereas before you couldn't. So you can consume cricket. The options facing Canadians today for what you want to do with your leisure time is greater than it certainly was a generation ago. And that's just one of the factors that we joke that it was cold in Canada and you had to play hockey because there's nothing else to do. Now it's limitless. And that's one of the issues facing it.

DM: It's also though hockey is so much part of the culture here that that it's become part of what it is to be Canadian. This is Hana Ryan Singh one of the announcers of the Punjabi broadcast of Hockey Night in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

My parents immigrated from India and I grew up in the 80s when Hockey was everything in Alberta. Obviously with the Oilers and Flames. So early on I developed a passion for hockey and I realized it was the ice breaker between my classmates and I had to be a broadcaster in the hockey world was the dream. It makes me feel so patriotic towards what this country has done for my family. What it's also doing something I'm really proud of, it's growing the sport. Some parents came up and they're like oh we watch you all the time, and they said we didn't know anything about hockey and we wouldn't have put our kids in the sport, had it not been for the show and what you're doing.

[Game noise]

[Commentator shouting] Nick Banino!

DM: I could listen to that Bonino call all day.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: If I was Nick Bonino that would be the ringtone on my cell phone for the rest of my life.

DM: He talked about hockey being kind of a unifying force in Alberta when he was growing up in the 80s. Is it still the case in this country three decades later?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: I mean Dallas Eakins as a longtime professional coach was born in Florida and moved to Peterborough as a young child. And you know he'd played baseball the Tampa Bay Lightning [unintelligible] weren't around when he was a kid. So he had a loose understanding of hockey and he said that when they pulled in, you know the moving van and everything into Peterborough, his very first memory was watching children playing ball hockey in the street. And he was an athletic kid, so he made friends going out and playing ball hockey. He learned what it was to be of Peterborough by taking those first few steps on the ice. This is who forms your community, the people not just go to school with you but live in your city. This is what it is to be where you're from. And he learned that through hockey and I think that there is still that power there. The challenges is that eventually it's going to mean less, I think, to the Canadians than it does now.

DM: Do you still see kids out playing ball hockey as much as they used to be?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: I mean I live in the city now. I live in Toronto. When I was growing up in the suburbs that's what we did. But again you know video games were pretty boring back then. No I don't. When you go to the park - and again this isn't a bad thing - breaking the monoculture for sports isn't the worst thing. You do see people playing soccer and basketball and baseball and doing other things. But but no there are hockey nets in the school around the corner from our house and often we don't have to line up to use them.

DM: You talked about the drop in enrollment that's in boys hockey. One of the bright lights for hockey is of course girls and women's and jump in enrollment in the women's game. Fran Rider is the president of the Ontario Women's Hockey Association. Let's have a listen to her.

SOUNDCLIP

From the women's side of the game, it's continuing to grow and evolve and our challenges are still access to facilities, access to female teams and the biggest picture is the credibility of the female game. Women have always wanted to play and there just have not been the opportunities for them. And we found that when there's limited dollars in a family the family is more receptive to putting the dollars towards their sons' sports as their daughters sports'. You know families are waking up to the reality of how wonderful which is to build strong women.

DM: One of the taglines that's become popular is Play Like a girl. What can the boys hockey learn from girls hockey to help it grow these days?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: I mean there was a Minor Hockey Association Executive north of the city here in Toronto was faced with you know stagnating growth rates for girls hockey. It wasn't so much attracting them as retention and this is where I think hockey in general can learn. It was inventive thinking that this executive had an idea of well why don't we block an hour two hours off every month and we'll have women who went on to play high levels so that could be U-sports - that's Canadian university - or maybe in a couple of went down the in CAA and we'll have these women now come back and practice [unintelligible] skate with the girls in our Minor Hockey Association. And then afterwards we'll have them you know eat pizza, socialize talk about the pathways. All of these other things and they helped staunch the bleeding. The retention returned to sustainable levels and I think that that's what hockey in general needs. It needs not radical thinking but different thinking.

DM: Well here's a look here's a radical thought. If boys’ hockey is dropping should we be transferring some of the resources that we're putting into men's hockey and boys' hockey into girls and women's hockey. I mean there are professional level women's hockey players right now who are sitting out. They don't have a league to play in.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Yes no we're going to have to talk for three or four more hours. I'll come back to talk about the travails and trials of professional women's hockey [cross talking] investing and that's the NHLs, they're going to have to invest I think to be like the model of the WNBA and the NBA and how that operates as a business.

DM: That's at the professional level. But should we have more parity for girls hockey in terms of funding?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Yes. In terms of funding in terms of access to ice that you know, having the nine to 10 p.m. for a 13 year old hockey team should not be a thing. And yes like that's another challenge, is that you know publicly we don't build typically a lot of arenas anymore, that that's left to the private sector. And the challenge for the private sector is that ice is not a charity, right. I guess it can be expensive. So, yes, public sector arena building that can absolutely be one lever to help alleviate some of that strain.

DM: We're talking trying to talk through some of the solutions to the crisis that hockey is facing.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: We're going to solve it all here today. I feel good.

DM: Well I don't know whether we'll solve it here today, but some groups are trying to make hockey more accessible and I'll give you an example. Kyle Baldwin is the president of the New Waterford Minor Hockey Association in Cape Breton. That area has seen a lot of loss of jobs since the coal mining shut down and a huge drop in. Young hockey players his group runs a program called Everybody's Opportunity to Play where kids starting out can play for free for a year and they save one hundreds of dollars in sign up costs or things like that. And let's hear him explain why.

SOUNDCLIP

I grew up playing hockey and I've had a lot of friends of mine that never had the opportunity to play. Hockey always had the adage of being a rich man's sport. So we looked at that, at having kids join into the program when we're losing so many to say you know what, there should be no restrictions now on price. Cape Breton, there's not many people on our island that can say they've never been to a hockey rink before. It's not just the hockey rink. We have weddings there in the summer and we don't have too many other things left in our community to lose, and the rink being one of them would be a big big blow to our town. Our rink is the hearts of our town and our hockey players are the blood.

DM: What does it mean when we have small Canadian communities coast to coast to coast that are at risk of losing that lifeblood of hockey? And I mean again using Peterborough as an example where hockey is just not the big thing anymore. What does it mean to Canada if we're losing that?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Canada is changing and that's a good thing. Canada's changing so it makes sense that the taste would change as well. Hockey's issue is that for years its marketing plan was, hey, it's getting cold outside. Come on and play hockey. Door's open. And we'd all go and we'd all play hockey and that's how we spent our winter. Canada is not like that anymore. The really encouraging thing and I say this as somebody I played terrible beer league hockey twice a week, and I am terrible. Bring shame on my name and the game. But as a hockey parent with two kids in it, there are hockey executives who have really good ideas. The challenge will be implementation and getting by in. And this is just one example. There's a hockey executive in Ontario wondering aloud why can't hockey at the entry level be like high school football. If you have ever played high school football, you don't have to have your own shoulder pads or helmet or the pants or the pads. You show up and say grade 9 or 10 or 11.

DM: The team gives it to him.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: And not only they give it to you they show you how to put it on. They fit it for you properly so you don't have to cross that delta of Oh my God I don't know how to do this. They will show you. So Phillip McKee is the executive's name and he wondered why you know the thing about three four five six seven eight year olds annoying thing. They grow. And if you're trying to buy them equipment means you have to buy them lots of equipment. So you know at those early ages when they grow out of those shin pads, those elbow pads, those gloves, those skates. Why can't you donate them back to the Minor Hockey Association in exchange for maybe a rebate on next year's registration and those minor hockey associations can build banks .Get to buy your own helmet because everybody needs a good helmet. But an entry point is here's all your gear. Bring it back at the end of the winter. Go have fun at hockey.

DM: What's your sense though of whether Canadian hockey executives and the minds behind Canadian hockey really feel the crisis and are coming up with those kind of innovative ideas? Because I'm going to I'm going to say two words that probably should put fear in the heart of Canadian hockey folks which is Toronto Raptors, right. I mean we saw a real national celebration of that team on their NBA run this year and heard how so many young Canadians are looking to basketball as the national sport. So should we start thinking about different national sports other than hockey?

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Well I mean you can just look at all the Canadian Stanley Cup champions we've been celebrating over 08- No not since 1993. Never mind. I'm sorry. You know and again it's not a bad thing that our kids have other interests. I mean the flip side is you talk about you know right at the beginning the kids were playing 15-20 hours a week of hockey. Hockey Canada wants them doing other things in the summer. Play soccer. Play baseball. Try yoga. Do anything. You don't want to be specialized. But yeah Hockey needs to become more accessible and more attractive and it realizes that right from the very top at Tom Rennie at the head of Hockey Canada the challenge is going to be what are the best ways forward that this is a big country, geographically, coast to coast to coast. And issues are different in each community and sometimes within each community each Minor Hockey Association faces different challenges. It's a massive undertaking. So how do you come up with solutions and then how do you deal with implementation. Those are some of the challenges and they recognize them. Everybody I've spoken with is recognize their challenges. It's how do you tackle them.

DM: I think he probably recognized I'm a hockey fan and I'm a hockey dad as well and I also play beer league hockey so you don't need to convince me. But for a Canadian that's listening right now, what's your pitch on why they should try hockey or game hockey another chance.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Do you like terrible coffee, there's no better place to go than Canadian hockey rink. No it's a fun game. It's a fast game. It's great for team building. It can be lifelong. Unlike high school football nobody plays high school football beer league. Like you can make friends in childhood that will be with you forever. You'll be 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, playing beer league and having fun and meeting people from your community and being a part of your community in that rink. And honestly the dressing rooms are warm. Like it's cold outside why not go inside the dressing room and warm up and go have fun and play some hockey because that's the point. It's not making the NHL. It's making the OHL. It's not going to the Olympics. It's having fun and being part of your community.

DM: Sean, a real pleasure talking with you.

SEAN FITZ-GERALD: Thank you for having me.

DM: Sean Fitz-Gerald is the senior national writer at the athletic and online sports publication and the author of Before the Lights Go Out: A Season inside a Game on the Brink. He was in our Toronto studio and that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q today. Tom Powers conversation with Debbie Harry the front woman of Blondie. That pioneering punk and new wave band is still touring. Well we just heard Sean Fitz-Gerald talking about how important author at Roch Carrier was to him. Let's end with just an excerpt from his quintessential Canadian story The Hockey Sweater young Roch's beloved Montreal Canadiens' sweater was torn and too small, so as mother dutifully ordered him a replacement from Eaton's. This is Roch Carrier and I'm Duncan McCue Jimmy gwitch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

That day I had one of the greatest disappointments of my life. I would even say that on that day I experience a very great sorrow. Instead of the red white and blue. Montreal Canadiens sweater. Mr. Eaton at sent us a blue on the white sweater with a maple leaf on the front. The sweater of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I had always won the red white and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater. All my friends wore the red white and blue sweater. Never had anyone in my village ever won the Toronto sweater. Besides, the Toronto team was regularly thronged by the triumphant Canadiens. With tears in my eyes I found this strength to say 'I'd never wear that uniform'. 'My boy, first you are going to try it on'. My mother pulled the blue and white Toronto Maple Leafs sweater over my shoulders and already my arms were inside the sleeves. She pulled the sweater down and carefully smoothed out all the creases in the [unintelligible] Maple Leaf on which, right in the middle of my chest, were written the words Toronto Maple Leafs. I wept. 'I'll never wear it. Maurice Richard would never put it on his back. 'You're not Maurice Richard. Anyway it's not what's on your back that counts. It's what you've got inside your head'. 'You'll never put in my head to wear a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater'.

The Current Transcript for October 2, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

National affairs panel

Critics say the West has failed to keep pressure on Saudi Arabia since Khashoggi killing

'Adults can ruin anything': Kids' hockey is facing a crisis in Canada, says author

Wednesday October 2, 2019 Full Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode