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The Current Transcript for October 14, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Given what we have seen in the last two weeks, there is little doubt that the second wave of COVID will hit Indigenous peoples harder than the first wave.

MATT GALLOWAY: As COVID cases climb across this country, special concern is being raised for those living in First Nations. In a moment, a look at the systemic issues of housing and health that have made physical distancing almost impossible, even in normal times. Also this morning, most authors would ask you to buy their new book. They might even appear on this very program to make the pitch. In an hour, why one Canadian writer is telling bookstores not to stock or sell his new children's novel. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: My remarks at the roast and it was a roast, we were supposed to be making fun. And in retrospect, obviously, it fell flat and I apologize for that.

MG: In the midst of the B.C. election, controversy over sexist remarks has turned up the heat on the Liberal Party and reminded many if they needed a reminder that sexism in politics is still alive and well in 2020. Plus, are you tired of looking out of your window during lockdown? Look out of someone else's instead. From a backyard garden in Rotterdam to a porch in Bangalore surrounded by chirping birds, how the weirdly addictive website window swap is giving our brains some distraction when we need it most. We start though in First Nations communities that largely avoided the first wave of COVID, but are fearful about what's to come. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How dwindling resources are leaving one Northern Ontario First Nation community struggling to combat a second wave

Guest: Peter Beatty, Keith Mason, Carrie Bourassa

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VOICE: Just I don't know if everybody's going to still send everybody out or what's going to happen. That's the worst thing I'm thinking of is where we going to live if this actually gets any worse? What are we going to do?

MG: That was Little Grand Rapids Chief Raymond Keeper speaking with, As It Happens, last week just as his community went into lockdown. The remote fly in community in Manitoba now has over 30 cases with no hospital. Talks have begun about bringing in a military field hospital. The Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation in northern Saskatchewan is also now under lockdown, closing its schools after a region's surge in COVID cases. Peter Beatty is Chief of the Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation, and we reached him in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, just before he was leaving to self-isolate in his cabin. Chief, good morning.

PETER BEATTY: Good morning, Matt. Glad to be talking to you this morning.

MG: Glad to have you here. What is the situation right now in the Peter Ballantine Cree Nation when it comes to COVID-19?

PETER BEATTY: We have over 11,100 band members that are registered. It's quite a sizeable First Nation, a lot of communities, but we're dealing with COVID cases in two of them, two of our northern communities.

MG: Why did you make the decision to put the community into full lockdown?

PETER BEATTY: The reason is that we had to do that as quickly as possible because of the overcrowding in our band housing units in all of our communities. There's a lot of people that, you know, live in some of these units, anywhere from, I would guess the average being six to eight people to as high as 20 people living in a three bedroom unit. And you can imagine if you were to get one positive person in one of those units, how quickly it would spread. And, you know, the dangers of this virus, even two seemingly healthy individuals who is you know, the risk is too high risk for us. And we have a lot of people as well that are compromised health-wise. We have diabetics, we have people that have cardio problems. We you know there's a whole host of things that would compromise the health in our communities. We're no different than any other First Nation in Canada. And so we have to be very careful when we hear of any positive cases coming to our communities to act quickly. Three of our major communities have rapid testing machines. They're called Gene Expert or GeneX machine. I'll give you a result in about 45 minutes. So we were able to detect positive cases fairly quickly in the second wave here. We have to look at the general public as well, because we have a lot of members. As I said, we have over 11,000 members and our members are in different communities and they travel to urban centres.

MG: How does that compare to the first wave? What was that like for your community?

PETER BEATTY: Well, in the first wave, initially back in March, April, we had two cases that we dealt with in south end Saskatchewan. That stemmed from international travel by one of our health workers, which who infected the taxi driver who was driving her from neurones to south end. And so it was an enclosed space there for that three hour drive. So the taxi driver became infected. But we were able to isolate and, of course, keep them, you know, in separate buildings and also practical close contacts. Like all those came back negative. But we were able to cap that at two cases. We were able to deal with it fairly quickly and we're trying to do the same thing in this second wave resurgence of COVID-19 in our community.

MG: Do you have a sense as to how this second wave occurred in terms of where it was spreading from?

PETER BEATTY: I get the same information as everyone else. I'm aware that there was, say, I think, a church group in Prince Albert where this apparently stemmed from, probably like your guess is as good as mine, but probably an infected person would have attended and that's where it came from. We have no specifics on it, but as far as I'm aware, that's where these cases are stemming from.

MG: I spoke with the indigenous services minister, Marc Miller, and he talked about the concerns that he has when it comes to a second wave on First Nations. What do you want to see? Given the conditions that you described, what do you want to see? What do you need from the federal gkovernment to help you in this fight?

PETER BEATTY: I think what we need is what we need right now immediately is places for people to be isolated and quarantined in every community. We need, they should have access to very quick access to ready to move mobile units, RTMs. That we can take to our communities, have them serviced with water and sewer and power, and give us at least that/ you know, these mobile units where we can isolate people. I mean, it's not something that is impossible. We do have road access to most of our communities and we can get it done. I mean, we just need the support of the federal government to be able to do that.

MG: So when Marc Miller says that he's looking at addressing the concerns that First Nations have around this, I mean, your point is you can worry about COVID but the issue is is larger than that and there are reasons why First Nations are vulnerable.

PETER BEATTY: Absolutely. Absolutely. Overcrowding leads to a lot of the other social problems, socio-economic problems that we have in the communities.

MG: What are you most concerned about when it comes to this second wave?

PETER BEATTY: I'm very concerned with our current situation and all First Nations communities, including my communities, with the overcrowding and the possibility of the virus spreading very quickly through older populations and then out into the general public as well. We're following all of the of course, the health guidelines or encouraging our our First Nations modellers to self isolate and, you know, support the lockdown rules for now until we can get a handle on the current outbreak and hopefully everything turns out well.

MG: Chief Beatty, I wish you the best of luck and I appreciate your time in describing what your community is up against. Thank you very much.

PETER BEATTY: You're very welcome. Glad to be talking to you.

MG: Peter Beatty is the chief of the Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation in Saskatchewan. Keith Mason is the pandemic coordinator. In the Kasabonika Lake First Nation and Oji-Cree community of just over a thousand people located in northern Ontario. Keith Mason, good morning to you.

KEITH MASON: Good morning. Bonjour.

MG: Your community did not have any COVID cases in the spring and the first ones appeared in September. How did that happen?

KEITH MASON: Yes, of course. Just like everybody wen the pandemic was announced and we had put in protocols. We had a pandemic plan in place. So we had followed that as best we could, taking all the recommendations, of course, handed down from all health authorities within our area. And again, to assist with all the strict rules and all the precautionary measures that were put in place kept COVID from entering our community. Now, of course, this lasted for a few months and then, of course, the restrictions and the government started lifting restrictions and with that we started following. And it is only then when we started allowing travel to commence within our community, when we discovered our first case.

MG: Was that a difficult decision to, as you say, allow travel within the community?

KEITH MASON: Yes. It was extremely difficult. Of course, our chief and council are working with our pandemic committee. And like I said there, we put in a lot of protocols, a lot of rules for the community members to follow. But, of course, with all these restrictions being lifted and business needed to continue, which meant we needed essential services to continue running. So we had to lift our travel bans and start allowing people to come in. School was starting. We needed teachers to come in. We needed our projects to restart. Again everybody was desperate to get a sense of normalcy. So we started following all the all the lifting of restrictions and protocols that were put in place.

MG: We heard from Chief Beatty about the situation that his community is facing in terms of not having the resources. What sort of challenges does COVID pose for your community?

KEITH MASON: Well, Kasabonika is a small fly in community. And again, with all other First Nations, we have very limited resources. Overcrowding, housing, it's not uncommon to have two, three, four families under one roof. And to ask our people to physical distance is just not a reality in our area. And people still need to go out for medical reasons and other emergencies. So there are some travel that throw out the pandemic. And then when people come back, of course, we have measures that we put in place. People have to isolate and to ask people to isolate in an overcrowded home is extremely difficult.

MG: How concerned are you that I mean, given the fact that you managed to largely avoid this in the first wave, that the second wave could in a community, as you say, that is remote, is a fly in community, that this could spiral out of control this time around?

KEITH MASON: I think we were really lucky. We discovered our first case soon after we discovered that spread to the whole family of five and then spread again to more. So we had six positive cases within the community, which could have easily been a lot more if it weren't for extreme measures that we put in place. But that eally extended our resources. That made it very difficult for us to manage with the limited resources we had. But we were just lucky that we had some good people in the community that stepped up. Our program people stepped up and we all pitched in to make sure that it didn't go anywhere.

MG: These are extraordinary times. And as you say, people need to step up and pitch in to try to keep this at bay. Good luck in the work that you're doing, Keith. And I appreciate you talking to us this morning. Thank you.

KEITH MASON: Thank you very much.

MG: Keith Mason is the pandemic coordinator for the Kasabonika Lake First Nation in northern Ontario. These are just three stories, but there are more indigenous communities seeing COVID-19 numbers rising across this country right now. Carrie Bourassa is a professor of community health and epidemiology at the University of Saskatchewan, as well as the Indigenous Engagement Lead for the federal COVID-19 Immunity Task Force. And she's been listening in. Carrie Bourassa, good morning to you.

CARRIE BOURASSA: Good morning.

MG: Why did we see so few cases amongst First Nations communities in the spring when it seemed like other communities across this country were really feeling the brunt of COVID-19?

CARRIE BOURASSA: Well, I think the answers really lie in what Chief Beatty and Chief Mason just articulated. I think the first wave it was there was really it was long term care facility, the acute care hospitals and and essential services that were really on the front lines. You know, we were in lockdown. Right? Schools were shut down. We didn't have the economy were only essential services. There was travel restrictions. And so, you know, I think right there is why we didn't have a lot of cases, if any, in the north, until or and even in Indigenous communities in general. Very few, if any. Right? And now we have sort of this relaxing and schools are open. The economy is open. And, you know, travel is not restricted. It's or very little. And now we have community transmission occurring. And so I think, you know, it's kind of been a bit insidious and all of a sudden now we've got these spikes in transmission. So I think, you know, exactly what, you know, Chief Beatty and Chief Mason has pointed out that, you know, they're doing all the right things. They're following the protocols, but unfortunately, now, you know, these things have been relaxed. And now we have these spikes in community transmission. And we have to take this very seriously. I do believe that this can be addressed. Chief Beatty did point out that, you know, you can't, both chiefs have pointed out you cannot self quarantine in, you know, housing that is sub, usually sub -ar, unfortunately, and in overcrowded housing. So, you know, I know in the far north, we've been actually working to develop a proposal that would provide the trailers that are required. And actually, it's a very comprehensive proposal that would support what is necessary. So I think there is a way forward. But certainly there needs to be support from the government to do that.

MG: Tell me more about that, because what Chief Beatty and Keith Mason were talking about the idea of adequate housing. But then there are issues around clean water, access to medical care and those mobile units to quarantine people. A lot of these things existed before this pandemic ever arrived. You said that in some ways the pandemic opened the eyes of people across Canada to these sort of systemic issues. Are government beginning to understand the urgency of addressing those systemic issues?

CARRIE BOURASSA: I think so. Honestly, of course, these issues have have always been there, including, you know, just, you know, systemic racism and, you know, subpar access to care, culturally safe care. But really, what COVID-19 has done is is really exasperated that or you know, laid it bare, if you will. You know, really. And so I think, you know, people are really understanding this for Indigenous peoples in particular. You know, we're we're really seeing this in a new light, if you will. Although, you know, if you're Indigenous, we've experienced this for many, many years. And now people are starting to understand the realities of this, the cold reality of it. So I think that, you know, people are really starting to understand this. There's been a lot of dialogue. And I think, you know, realizing that that something really has to give here. You know, this has to be addressed. It cannot continue on. And the abilities, you know, in indigenous communities, these are these are going to affect people's lives. So you know, you cannot underestimate the access to clean water and, you know, appropriate housing, and I think it is mental health, for example, as well, access to to food sovereignty. I mean, it is vitally important.

MG: And as you say, I mean, all of these issues then come to the boil when you're in a crisis point.

CARRIE BOURASSA: Absolutely. 100 percent.

MG: I'll be curious to see whether this I mean, we've heard from Marc Miller and he has said that he's concerned about the second wave hitting First Nations communities in a way that would be different than that first wave. It'll be curious to see whether whether governments act on that and whether they take advantage of the opportunity to build back better, as they've been saying. In the meantime, we'll watch for this and we appreciate your time this morning. Carrie, thank you.

CARRIE BOURASSA: Thanks very much.

MG: Carrie Bourassa is a professor of community health and epidemiology at the University of Saskatchewan and the Indigenous Engagement Lead with the federal COVID-19 Immunity Task Force. How is that second wave affecting you? We have been talking about three situations in First Nations communities across this country. Your experiences with this in terms of how this is affecting you would be welcome. You can reach us through the website at cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. The CBC News is up next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Bowinn is, you know, very pretty lady and she knows that she's got it and she knows how to get Ralph going.

MG: A video of a virtual roast is getting attention in British Columbia and beyond. In the midst of an election, the Liberal Party is facing criticism around sexist remarks and what it has or hasn't said about those remarks. And female politicians say it's a particularly public reminder of the sexism they face on this job on a regular basis. That story coming up in six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music]

Sexualized attacks are an all-too-common part of the job, says female politicians

Guest: Nadine Nakagawa, Nicole Read

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Brad Regehr, the Canadian Bar Association's first Indigenous president on how he intends to raise the bar on diversity in Canada's justice system. But first, an unpalatable roast.

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MG: Bowinn Ma and Ralph Sultan are both provincial politicians in British Columbia, and they're both engineers. But they're also very different. He's 87. She's 35. He's a retiring B.C. Liberal MLA and she is an incumbent NDP candidate in the upcoming election. He's white and she's Asian. And they both featured prominently in a long story told by Liberal MLA Jane Thorthwaite at a roast over Zoom marking Ralph Sultana's retirement.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Bowinn knows how to get you. She knows how to get you. There's these big coaches. But Ralph would be sitting on one, say the middle of the couch and Bowinn would be right up, right next to her. Cuddling and a little bit cleavage there. And Ralph would be enthralled with her.

MG: The video shows some of the other politicians laughing. No one interrupts and the story continues. Bowinn Ma was not particularly surprised.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I've experienced this in the past, albeit not quite so publicly, but what I can't stand idly by to is how this impacts women and girls around the province who have just had confirmed for them that you can rise to serve the public as a member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia and still be subject to sexism from other members of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia.

MG: Nadine Nakagawa is a city councillor in New Westminster, B.C.. Nicole Read is the former mayor of Maple Ridge, also in B.C. And they join us now. Good morning to you both.

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Good morning.

NICOLE READ: Good morning.

MG: Nadine, what was your reaction to that video when you first saw it?

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Well, I'm sorry to say that my first reaction was that when I heard people talking about it, I expected it to be worse. But then as I sat with it for, you know, overnight and the next day and I listened to a lot of the women that I know respond to it, I became quite angry because it's you know, again, it's something that I'm not surprised that this is what goes on behind closed doors, but it's always, always upsetting to hear it. And the harm that it caused to a lot of people that I know.

MG: When you say that you're not surprised what you mean by that?

NADINE NAKAGAWA: I mean, that I, I do expect that people have this kind of banter, but it's you know, it's still upsetting to hear it. But I do assume that this kind of talk goes on behind closed doors as as a racialise woman who's in politics. You know, unfortunately, I. I assume that people do talk about me this way. I try not to think about it. So it's sort of thrust into my into my purview. But the reality is, is that I've heard this about lots of other folks before. I've heard people say this about similar things like this about me before. So really, I mean, it's like we know it's there, but we just try not to see it.

MG: Why and I want to bring Nicole into thisl but why are many people calling it not just sexist, but racist as well?

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Because I think it was probably not something that would have been so comfortable and funny, funny. Had it been someone who is also white and, you know, I think that the whole video is so upsetting even to listen to it again. Now, it just it breaks my heart that we have someone so young, so intelligent, so capable imbo in my in politics, and that she's had to actually experience this. And I think her words were so profoundly powerful that, you know, we don't expect to see this from people who are elected who are in our legislature, like we should at least be able to expect that those people are above this because we need those people working in this province to protect the rights of of minorities, to combat misogyny against women because we need diversity in democracy.

MG: What would you say, Nicole, to those who. I mean, it was meant to be a joke. It was a roast. And people on the call, some of them think it's funny and they're laughing along. What would you say to people who say that this is just a joke?

NICOLE READ: I think it was profoundly cringey. You know, like listening to it. Had I been on a call like that, I would have felt those emotions. I'm sure others on that call felt that her words were inappropriate. But, you know, leaders have to have the power to stand up to combat things that are inappropriate. So my concern, you know, ultimately from the call is we have somebody running to take over the leadership of our province on a call who doesn't feel the gumption to say, hey, whoa, like, that's not appropriate. Like this is a rose. Yes. Supposed to be funny. Yes. But some things just aren't funny. You know, but but that isn't what happened. And then there's the whole aftermath that ensued. You know, this sort of fumbling with it of, you know, how do we address it now that the public, you know, that this video is in the public? And I think, you know, the first attempt at an apology was a bit of a non apology. You know, I don't think that the language that's come out has been strong enough. I mean, certainly Wilkinson addressed it last night.

MG: Leader of the Liberal Party,.

NICOLE READ: In a debate with fairly strong language.

MG: The leader of the Liberal Party,.

NICOLE READ: The leader of the Liberal Party.

MG: Nadine, it's interesting because Bowinn Ma has talked about how she has made choices in terms of how to act and how to dress and carry herself to avoid sexualised interpretations. What do you make of that? I mean, have you ever had to be conscious in that way because of how you act to avoid those sorts of things?

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Well, it's quite interesting. I mean, I think one of the things that's important to say is that Asian women, you know, also black and indigenous women, but that's not my identity, but are hyper sexualized. That's why this is is racist and sexist. Is that It feeds into racist tropes about Asian women being sort of temptresses or being overly sexualized. So for myself, I actually choose quite differently. I choose to wear brightly coloured blazers. I choose to wear flowers in my hair and and flowery dresses quite often because I'm intentionally trying to challenge the perception of leadership, which is often a man in a black blazer. And when I walk into spaces that you know, the local government table and Nicole's probably had a similar a similar experience, I already stand out. I already don't fit in. When I go to the Union of B.C. Municipalities, which is all the elected reps from around B.C., it's the average age is probably about 30 years older than myself. It's mostly white men. I'm sorry, already stand out. So I actually dig into that more because I want to show that leadership doesn't have to look like that. I don't want to reinforce that. But in doing that, I'm also aware that I am making myself stand out even more. And I assume that my colleagues are saying, you know, my my broader colleagues in the local government round are saying things about me that aren't flattering because I do choose to challenge a lot of norms. But what I actually didn't consider until now is that they're also probably hyper sexualising me because I am I am somebody who is a curvy woman and Blaze's don't fit me the way that they set men. So it I'm sure that this is I'm sure this is real and I've made decisions that I think actually in some ways make it worse. But I choose to make them intentionally because I don't want to continue to just say that this is in the background, it's OK. I really want to daylight some of these issues.

MG: Since this issue and this video has been raised, again, people have been talking about how this is just another example of sexism persisting within politics in this country in 2020. You, Nicole, took a position on tackling homelessness in your community. This was an unpopular position and there were attacks that came at you from opponents. How convinced were you that what you faced was in part fuelled by the fact that you're a woman?

NICOLE READ: You know, homelessness didn't create misogyny in my community. The misogyny existed. And I think my stance on homelessness and my, you know, very public engagement of homelessness allowed a lot of people to come to light with some very disappointing opinions. You know, I had a staff of women. My executive assistants were women, you know, senior leadership, women. You know, while I was in office, I supported the hiring of a female police chief. So we had a lot of women around me who were also being victimised by these just a rageous e-mails that would come in talking about me cooking for men, carrying someone's slippers. You know, you ranging all the way up to just shocking language. And so, you know, that's there. And I think what was surprising for me was just how widespread it was and how many people had those opinions and how many of the people that had those opinions were women. That was really hard for me to understand. Was was the actual size of the problem. And so for me, my takeaway from from the video around Bo and Mom is really, again, how important it is for our elected officials to combat this kind of behaviour.

MG: Because in that video, it's the Liberal MLA, Jane Thornthwaite who makes that comment?

NICOLE READ: Exactly.

MG: What does that tell you? I mean, you hinted at just how deep it is and how widespread it is. What does that element of the story reveal to you?

NICOLE READ: I think that there is still a belief that there is an acceptance that that we can make fun of women, you know, that that we can talk about women in a sexual way and and especially when it's done about our colleagues. It just goes to show that there is a real outdated mentality still sitting in in some elected seats. And it is so important that we elect young people in this election. It is so important that we elect women in this election. We need people at the table who are going to everyday and all that they do, make sure that they stand up against this type of behaviour because it does not promote wellness across the board in our problem.

MG: You talked about how widespread this is. In Newfoundland and Labrador is legislature. There's fallout from another sexist remark that that continues this week. Here's Minister Lisa Dempster calling on her colleagues to do better.

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VOICE: Yesterday during debate, the Member for Conception Bay-S South, remarked that I was laughing over there like a schoolgirl. I wonder, as a male member of this House, ever been admonished to acting like a schoolboy? As members of the House of Assembly who represent the women and girls of Newfoundland and Labrador, it is incumbent upon us that we elevate and empower their voices, not belittle them. And sadly, it is all too often normalized and unchallenged. I rise today to challenge it.

MG: Nadine Nakagawa, Nicole Read was just talking there about the importance of getting more women and more diverse people on the ballot. When those comments are still being made in 2020, what's the effect on that effort to try to diversify our politics this year?

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Yeah, it's incredibly difficult. I am a big supporter asking people to run diverse people, underrepresented people. I think that their voices make a difference in representation truly does matter. And it's very, very hard to ask people to enter these spaces. I just heard from a friend who is a woman, an elected official at the municipal level. She's doing some anti-racism work and she's received death threats because of it. It's very, very troubling that that this continues to be a reality. And at the same time, I would also say that, you know, local government, provincial government, these are colonial institutions that were created by and for men, quite frankly. And we have to also address the systems within it. It's if people are just going there to uphold these systems, which in the end, enough themselves are colonial, racist and sexist, then representation isn't good enough. I think what we've seen here is a woman who an upholder of patriarchy and misogyny, and there's lots of other folks who are upholding other harmful systems. So truly representation matters and it matters most when people are able to see that and name it and address it at a system level as well.

MG: Nicole, just briefly, we're almost out of time, but is that is that in part how you start to address this is by naming it and by calling it out>?

NICOLE READ: Yeah, 100 percent. And I think, you know, Nadine's bang on with these outdated colonial systems for sure. Right? We're still holding up patriarchy across this country. You know, I could talk for hours around Indigenous affairs in this country and all of the challenges that we still see, even though we've committed to reconciliation. So, you know, I think we have big challenges. I think we believe we're further ahead than we are. And I think that naming it and giving it daylight is an important part to actually moving forward.

MG: Glad to have you both on the program to give it some daylight. Thank you for being here this morning.

NICOLE READ: Thank you.

NADINE NAKAGAWA: Yeah, thank you.

MG: Nadine Nakagawa is a city councillor in New Westminster, British Columbia. Nicole Read is the former mayor of Maple Ridge, B.C.

WindowSwap offers viewers a distraction and change of scenery

Guest: Samantha Yammine

MG: My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Simone Tengattini lives in Bologna, Italy. When the pandemic hit this spring, he went to spend the lockdown at his family's home in the foothills of the Italian Alps. And the view from his window? Well, it sounds idyllic.

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VOICE: During lockdown, I could see the mountains I grew up in and I don't know, all these nice Italian red rooftops. And it's a small town, so you can see the church with a bell tower and you could hear the bells ringing. You could hear nature, basically. I mean, I really like that view because I've seen many other views in my life and I cann't compare them and the diversity that makes me appreciate even more the view from my window.

MG: He was so taken with that view that he uploaded a video of it to a website called WindowSwap. Visitors get to look at the window views of people just about everywhere. You might see a balcony in Chennai, India, filled with plants and a few dogs paddling in and out of the scene. You may see a cluster of industrial apartment blocks in Santiago, Chile. Sometimes you hear someone clicking away at a keyboard or an ambulance siren in the distance. Sonali Ranjit and Vaishnav Balasubramanian created WindowSwap. The couple lives in Singapore and they started this project during the height of lockdown when a friend in Spain said he was bored of looking out at the same view every single day. They have had about 8000 submissions and on CBC Radio's Tapestry, they spoke about why they believe WindowSwaps appeal is more than just a bit of distraction during a difficult time.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: One great thing about WindowSwap is that it kind of helps you shift your perspective in some way or the other, whether it's about how you expect people to live in a certain country, how you expected a certain place to look. Or even sort of look at your own life in a different light. You look out your window and maybe you see all your life and a bit differently. Something strange overcomes you when you look at all these business snippets of people's lives and I realized that it was this word I had somewhere called sonder. So it's a feeling you get sometimes when you're on a bus or you're walking through a crowded street and you realize that everybody around you, that you're walking past, you know, bumping into, everybody has their own rich, complex lives.

MG: Samantha Yammime has peered through some of these windows and has some thoughts on why looking through other people's windows is actually good for us. Samantha is a neuroscientist and a science communicator based in Toronto. Good morning.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Good morning.

MG: Can a site that lets us peer into the lives of others through their windows create more empathy or empathy or I love that idea of sonder, is that something that's possible by looking at a site like this?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I think absolutely. I don't think anyone directly tested it, but we know that it's important to feel connected to other humans, create social connections. And it's so important for us. So many parts of our brains are dedicated to feeling social connection and to releasing feel good chemicals. Well, we have a social connexion. And anything that might increase our sense of connectedness when we're in such isolating time can absolutely be a really welcome relief and change of pace.

MG: So I'm looking at somebody's window. It's Janice's window right now. She's in Groton, New York. And there's the window is just a view of the wall outside into her farm area. But there's a cat that's sitting there cleaning itself. It's very calm looking. As I look at this, what's going on in my brain that would take me away from, you know, the firehose of bad news that we're faced with every day?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Yes. Especially for the winter that you described. To me what I noticed browsing WindowSwap was so many nature scenes. And my anecdotally, anyone might notice when you when you take a walk in nature, you feel good. And that actually there are physiological, biological reasons for that. People have done studies. If you have to take a person and you have them walk in either an urban centre or in a forest, and it's the same type of lock, same the same level of difficulty at equal length, you'll notice that they'll have a lower heart rate. They'll have hot sorry. They'll have lower heart rate. So feel more relaxed when you ask them how they feel and will even report having less anxiety. And when you look at electrical activity in the brain, you'll even notice that they have more what seems like a calm and relaxed state in the brain when they've done the nature walk versus an urban walk. So nature for reasons we don't fully understand evokes relaxation and calms us at a biological level. And so that's probably what you're getting a sense of when you're looking at these matrices, your least feeling some level of that soothing effect of the nature, especially if you really take it in and maybe you start drifting and thinking, what are previous nice memories I've had in nature instead of pulling you to those happy places you might be holding on to.

MG: Part of it is also wanderlust, right? I mean, I'm looking now at a window, Zahra's window in India, and it's just these beautiful orange curtains that are fluttering away in a window. And I think it'd be nice to go to India sometime. But I'm not going anywhere right now. We miss being somewhere else, right?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Absolutely. And another thing our brains kind of crave is novelty. And we are perhaps more than ever all in a collective rut of routine, especially for those working from home. You're kind of seeing and maybe doing the same things every single day. But the brain likes new things. The brain even releases at its pleasure centres deep in the brain, an area called the nucleus accumbens. It releases the feel good molecule dopamine when something new happens and says even just going through window swapping of a new picture every every time you click. Same thing when you scroll through social media, something new comes up or when you travel a new place. When you turn the corner, that kind of novelty feels good to the brain and the signals send a signal to our brain, you know, to feel nice and something new and exciting is happening.

MG: WindowSwap has been wildly popular. Another thing that has brought people a lot of joy and perhaps, you know, diversion over the last several months is from Tim and Fred Williams, 22-year-old twins. They're from Gary, Indiana. I love these guys. They review oldies. Oldies he says in quotation marks, music from the 80s and 90s, and they offer reactions from the perspective of Generation Z.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of Tim and Fred Williams reaction video]

MG: These guys are fantastic. People may have seen them listening to a Phil Collins "In the Air Tonight" for the first time. What is it again that's going on that would get that reaction from us as we watch these guys listen to these tunes?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: It's so great. I think on one level, there's, again, that social connectedness. You're seeing people across generations now bond over something that they can all enjoy. And I think that's particularly important right now during the pandemic when we've almost seen different age groups pit against each other. And, you know, we're all being asked to make sacrifices. And it's just nice to bond over something and makes all of that maybe seem a little more worth it. And it's just nice to bond. That alone, a social bond, the kind of connection releases pleasure molecules in that pleasure centre in the brain, just like nature does. Beyond that, there's also food for people who grew up with this music, this invokes feelings of nostalgia and nostalgia will have you remembering good times and recalling things that made you feel good. And our memory is very powerful. When you're remembering things, it can feel very immersive. It can feel almost like you're reliving it. And so those kind of feel good memories, they're a nice thing right now when you can't be creating memories like that again. But beyond that, people also tend to feel nostalgic when they're maybe not in that great of a spot. And so I think this is just this is a really, really smart thing for them to start doing, because it gives us that social connection that feels good and that nostalgia that a lot of us are craving. And plus, it's super fun just to listen to the music and laugh and and just not take things so seriously.

MG: And our brains need that. Our brains need some sort of diversion. I'm glad that they're able to offer that. Do you have just briefly, do you have a favourite window from the WindowSwap site?

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: I saw one that was also a farm with a huge willow tree in the wind. And for me, that was it.

MG: Sam, thank you.

SAMANTHA YAMMINE: Thank you so much.

MG: Samantha Yammine is a neuroscientist and science communicator in Toronto. If you need to be transported somewhere else, that website is WindowSwap. Weirdly addictive. As I said, I find myself just thinking that I'm somewhere else often while I'm looking at that. Your regional update is next. You could look at window swap over the next 90 seconds or so. And then we're back to talk with the Canadian author, Adam Pottle. He has a brand new book out, but he doesn't want you to read it or buy it. Why would that be the case? Stay tuned to hear why. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current CBC Radio One.

[Music]

This deaf author is boycotting his own book after criticism its illustrations include an 'Asian stereotype’

Guest: Adam Pottle, Anju Gogia

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. The Canadian author, Adam Pottle has a new children's book out launching. It would normally involve speaking engagements, social media posts and pushing for reviews. But Adam Pottle is doing none of that. In fact, he's doing the opposite and encouraging people not to buy his new book because of an illustration in it. The book is called The Most Awesome Character in the World. Adam Pottle, good morning.

ADAM POTTLE: Good morning, Matt. Thank you very much for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. I want to talk about the illustration, but first for people who haven't read it. Tell us a bit about the book and what it's about.

ADAM POTTLE: OK. So the book is, as you mentioned, it's called The Most Awesome Character in the World. And it's about this young deaf girl named Philomena and her father gives her a book about another deaf girl. But she's not exactly satisfied with this book. She sees this book as being sad, being tragic, it's not her kind of story. So she sets out to create a story of her own, which result in the creation of what she calls "the most awesome character in the world."

MG: When did you see for the first time the illustrations that would accompany your book?

ADAM POTTLE: I saw the illustrations in mid-September and that point, the book had already been sent out to reviewers and to librarians. I hadn't yet had to see the illustrations or the proofs or anything like that until that point. And there had already been a couple of reviews written about the book that called attention to the illustration. And when I did see them, I was sort of anxious to see what the book looked like and I sort of I saw it and I saw that particular illustration. I was struck. I was dismayed.

MG: Describe the illustration for me. What is it that you saw and why were you so upset by it?

ADAM POTTLE: When I first read the reviews, the reviewers called attention to what they said was an Asian stereotype. And when I saw the book, I saw what they were talking about. It in the book there are a number of different character stuff that she imagines and this character is kind of one of the products of her imagination. She imagined monster robots. She imagines characters, a superheroes in wheel chairs and one of the characters who is in a wheelchair, it appears to be an Asian girl or an Asian woman. And she is dressed in a kamuno and she has hair tied up in buns, like Princess Leia buns. And to help me kind of guide me through these issues, I consulted with a sensitivy reader who further educated me about the importance of this. It showed me that yes, this is a stereotype and it it ultimately distracts from the message of the book. And the book is supposed to be a celebration of deaf culture. It's supposed to be a sort of celebration of deaf community and of imagination. But we can't celebrate those things at the expense of other cultures.

MG: Have you spoken to the illustrator about this?

ADAM POTTLE: I haven't spoken to the illustrator, but I have spoken to her agency. She unfortunately, has been receiving hate mail as a result of all of this. And I'd like to discourage people from doing that because hatred olves nothing. And most of the responsibility here ultimately lies with the publisher for choosing to release the book.

MG: So what did you tell your publisher, Reycraft Books?

ADAM POTTLE: Well, the sensitivity reader sent me a detailed analysis of the book and specifically of the illustrations. And so I sent those comments to the publisher and I said that based on this analysis, I do not feel comfortable promoting or supporting this book. So is there any way that we can delay publication and fix the illustration? This was on September 28th. It was two days before the book was supposed to be released. The publisher said unfortunately, we, while we understand your position, we cannot put the book back. We're going to release it as it is. And when I told them that I can promote it and I have to tell people that I'm, that I can't do this. I can't be part of this. And they said, that's okay. Thank you. We understand and we wish you well.

MG: So publishing a book is a big deal. I mean, when a book comes out, that's a opportunity for celebration for an author. Why are you taking it upon yourself to boycott your own book?

ADAM POTTLE: Because I don't want readers to feel alienated as a result of this book. And that's not what the book is about. If I hadn't said anything, I was afraid that I was being, that I was okay with the book being out there and I'm not.

MG: Tell me more about where that comes from. I mean, as a deaf person, have you felt as though you have been stereotyped or stigmatized or othered in your own life?

ADAM POTTLE: Very much. There are many deaf stereotypes that are perpetuated. I understand what it means to be stereotyped and I don't wish that for anybody. So, yeah, that was definitely a contributing factor in my response.

MG: What happens now with this? I mean, you have a book that's out there. The publisher says it's too late. You're telling people essentially not to buy it. What happens now?

ADAM POTTLE: It's a very good question. I have to say that the response from the Canadian literary community has been wonderful. I've had a couple of bookstores here in Canada reach out to me and say that they will not solve the book. And down in America, Barnes & Noble had removed the book from their website and Powell, which is a major American independent bookstore chain, they have refused to sell the book as well. So if the publisher doesn't listen to me, hopefully they will listen to booksellers because afterall, money talks.

MG: What about for you and this story though? The story's really important to you. What happens to this story of inclusion now that it's gone a bit sideways and you're telling people not to read the book? Is there an opportunity for you to sell the book with different illustrations down the road?

ADAM POTTLE: Unfortunately, the publisher owns the copyright in this case. So the only way to reclaim my story is to, again, try to make sure that this version isn't sold and that another version is produced with better illustration.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. We will follow the story along. In the meantime, it's great to speak with you. Adam, thank you.

ADAM POTTLE: Thank you very much, Matt and have a great day.

MG: And you. Take care. Bye bye.

ADAM POTTLE: You too. Bye bye.

MG: Adam Pottle is an author in Saskatoon. He's deaf. And if you're wondering how we did that interview, it's worth mentioning there's technology for just about everything. Google Meet captioned my questions, so Adam could read them and then respond. We contacted the publisher of his book, Reycraft Books, but we have not heard back. We also didn't get a response from our request to speak with the book's illustrator. Anju Gogia is the event's coordinator at Another Story Bookshop in Toronto. That's one of the stores in Canada that has agreed not to sell Adam Pottle's new book. She's been listening in. Anju, good morning to you.

ANJU GOGIA: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When you first heard that Adam was boycotting his own book, what went through your mind?

ANJU GOGIA: Well, I read the article The Huffington Post did on this, and I was just, I would say a combination of enraged and very, very saddened. And I had known Adam Pottle's books because he had sold his books before. And so I knew this author and I thought, how awful for a deaf author to be boycotting his first children's book, knowing that there are very few books out there for, you know, for deaf children about deaf children.

MG: You've seen the illustration?

ANJU GOGIA: I have and I've seen other illustrations in the book. And I think one of the things that makes me upset and what Adam didn't mention was that all the other human characters in the book that are the imagined characters of Philomena, the main character, they are in wheelchairs or they are superheroes and they're all wearing capes. What strikes me is that the Asian character is the only one that is in traditional clothing. Everyone else is in sort of North American clothing with superhero or masks or with capes. And so it's very sad for me that the one Asian character is the one dressed in traditional clothing.

MG: And so you wrote a letter to the publisher. What did you tell the publisher?

ANJU GOGIA: Well, what I asked the publisher to do was really respect Adam's wishes to have the book recalled and to put out a different edition with different illustrations. And I also said to them that we will not be selling the book in our store as is. That we would love to sell it in a revised edition.

MG: Have you heard anything back?

ANJU GOGIA: Nothing.

MG: His point was that money talks in situations like this, that as an author he can say, you know, fix my book or let us do it properly. That's one thing. But if a book seller says that they're not going to stop the book and that's how the publisher would make some money, that that could perhaps turn the publishers head. Do you expect to hear something back?

ANJU GOGIA: Well, I hope so. I mean, this is a publisher when you go on their website. They have great books that they put out. They are committed to own voices. Right? And own voices is a movement in the publishing industry for the last several years that encourages publishers to publish books by the creators themselves from those communities. So given the publisher's stated commitment to own voices and given that they have a fantastic list of other books, I would really hope that they listen to Adam's opinions as a deaf writer and publish a book that he can be proud of and stand behind.

MG: Why does something like this matter? It's an illustration, and you could imagine there's some people who say the story is the story. That's what matters. It's a story about inclusion. It's important to get that story out there. And if there's one illustration that perhaps doesn't sit well with people for the greater good of the story, it's important to get the story out there. Why do you think that this matters?

ANJU GOGIA: Because there's going to be Asian girls and boys reading that book across, you know, the world thing. But I wanted to be a superhero, too. Why can't I? Why do I have to be wearing a kimono and everybody else gets to be a superhero? You know, you have to look at what what reading and illustrations are to the psyche of children. Right. And it's so important that they have stories that represent who they are in their fullness. You know, we need characters who are not just black and Asian and First Nations, but we need characters who do a multitude of things out there, you know, who fight crime, who are gardeners, who, you know, march against police brutality, who, you know, bake pies, who do all kinds of things right. Who are, you know, the protagonists in fantasy books. So we need the whole range of characters so children can see themselves in the fullness of who they are and they can feel like they belong in this world. That is so important.

MG: Adam's book has a main character, a protagonist who is deaf. How common is that in in children's books and in the books that you would sell through the store?

ANJU GOGIA: Matt, not common enough. You know, we are a major vendor to schools across southern Ontario and we have so many requests for books about, you know, deaf and hard of hearing children, children with disabilities. And we know for a fact that those books are few and far between and there is a real hunger for it and a need for all children to see themselves represented. But, you know, I want my children to read about deaf characters as well. They're not. But they should be reading about this as well in really positive ways.

MG: I think it's fascinating, you think back when I was a kid and the books that I was reading or even when my kids were much younger. There is part of this is about, as you said, the on voices movement. There's been a real change in terms of widening the field in children's literature and the kind of diversity that you see, how much has changed in the last several years?

ANJU GOGIA: Well, I've been a bookseller for almost 25 years. I used to co-manage the Toronto Women's Bookstore from 1996 to 2006. And I can tell you at that time, there were very few books, you know, buying about black children, children of colour and indigenous children. It's changed tremendously over the last five to 10 years. There's a real movement, especially in the last five years, for books by and about black, indigenous and other children of colour, LGBTQ children and children's disabilities. It hasn't changed enough. And I think, you know, one of the things that we saw these last few months with the protests around George Floyd was there was a real movement to push for diversity in the book industry and not just have creators that are from these communities, but changes are needed across the industry. We need more editors. We need more sales reps. We need more booksellers. We need more marketing people and more publicists who are from these communities ourselves. So things are much, much better. We've got fantastic books by and about BIPOC writers, but we need more.

MG: It's quite a stance for an author to say don't buy my book.

ANJU GOGIA: It is. I've never seen it before. In my 25 years of book selling, I've never seen an author ask people not to buy their book.

MG: Anju, it's good to speak with you about this. Thank you.

ANJU GOGIA: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Take care. Bye bye.

ANJU GOGIA: Bye bye.

MG: Anju Gogia is the event's coordinator at Another Story Bookshop in Toronto.

Indigenous people must lead way in making Canada's legal system just, says Brad Regehr

Guest: Brad Regehr

MG: I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: A great reckoning this year has come with the protests that follow the killings in Breonna Taylor and George Floyd in the U.S., which raise the awareness of systemic racism exists in our country as well and even within our profession.

MG: You're listening to Brad Regehr. He's a lawyer in Winnipeg and now the first Indigenous president of the Canadian Bar Association.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I need only think of Eesha Hudson or Chantal Moore here in Canada, which, along with numerous other incidents, have shown we have a major problem. And I'm very sick and tired of seeing young indigenous people being killed by police. I'm sick of it. Over the last week. Over the last week, I've spoken about the problems which indigenous peoples in Canada have with the justice system, and I intend to continue to speak about this while I'm president. This may lead to uncomfortable conversations and truths, but I remain steadfast that I will have these conversations. Without these issues being addressed, reconciliation will be very difficult.

MG: Brad Regehr joins me now from Winnipeg. Brad, good morning.

BRAD REGEHR: Morning.

MG: Congratulations on this position.

BRAD REGEHR: Thank you.

MG: Tell me about that speech and why that was so difficult for you to get through.

BRAD REGEHR: Well, it's actually difficult for me to listen to. I didn't realize how upset I was going to get when I did it. I wrote the speech and I didn't realize how much it was bothering me. There's a big problem in this country. We know there's a big problem. We've had numerous studies done about it. And yet it keeps happening. And it's got to stop. It's got to stop.

MG: When I say that you are the first indigenous president of the Canadian Bar Association. In light of what you just said, what does it mean to be first?

BRAD REGEHR: Well, I'm honoured and humbled that my colleagues at the Bar Association felt that I exhibited what needed to be done to be the leader in the bar association. On the other hand, I'm just still surprised. It took 124 years for the first indigenous president. It took 123 for the first black president, because my my predecessor is Vivian Salmon from Ontario. And it still just surprises me that it had to take so long. But on the other hand, it doesn't surprise me. I'm hoping that I can be a role model to younger lawyers coming up that, yeah, you can attain these things too. You can attain leadership positions in the legal field.

MG: Would you have ever imagined that when you were young? You're a child of the 60s scoop?

BRAD REGEHR: Yes. Yeah. I was adopted into a non-indigenous household into the south part of Winnipeg neighbourhood, go for Kerry and raised in a neighbourhood that was almost completely Caucasian. But my parents never hid it from me and even said, you know, once they sort of hit teenage years and I was questioning more and more who I was, you know, said that when you're ready to look for your family, we'll help you will support you in doing that.

MG: What was the process in connecting with members of your biological family?

BRAD REGEHR: BR: Well, my mom, my my adopted one, I call her my mom, she, if you ever met this this soft spoken woman who is very gentle and yet when they adopted us and they're with the social worker and the social worker got up to get something, she sort of peeked over at the desk and looked into the file and saw what my birth name was, which is Vincent Aimo Bear. And she had that. She kept that information. She was given a few pieces of correspondence, which she provided to me, but she knew that name. And I went out east to Waterloo and did my undergraduate degree and thought, you know, maybe I need to start down this path because I need to know. And some friends said, well, if the last names bear, there's a number of communities where that surname is really popular. And so we sort of through deduction, figured out where the names would be. And then we discovered that further into northern Saskatchewan, there was communities up there where the name was popular. And in fact, a lot of the people in the community where my family comes from and Santee based scatch when are related to people in Manitoba because they're just across the border from each other. And someone did a phone call to the local CFS worker in Sandy Bay and it was my aunt. And as soon as she mentioned by name, my aunt went we've been looking for him for a long time.

MG: Sorry. Hold on. There's a call that was put into the local CFS worker and it turned out to be your aunt?

BRAD REGEHR: Yep.

MG: That's incredible.

BRAD REGEHR: Yeah. And so it was I think that was on a Friday. It was my first year law school and also and in the next three days, I talked to I lost count, talking to numerous aunts, uncles, my grandmother, cousins. And then finally on the Sunday, because they hadn't seen my mom in years. She was living in Thompson, Manitoba. They finally got hold of her. And I talked to her and my two younger brothers, and the two of them didn't know anything about me. They had no idea. And it was overwhelming because on Monday, I had a midterm in my contract class. And I went into the professor on Monday morning and I just said, this is what happened to me on my weekend. He was probably expecting that I was partying or something. When I told him and I said, I haven't studied like even half an hour. And he just said, you're not writing the test. I'm going to set a new test for you. Write it next week. And in fact, when I became bar associate president, that professor, now retired, living in Victoria, sent me an email congratulating me. And we just had a little reminiscing about that over email.

MG: This is a story that's incredibly powerful. And yet it's a story that I mean, with not all the details, but I think a lot of people across this country would be able to relate to in terms of not having those connections working out, you know, the process of finding those connexions and then realising that there's a whole other family architecture that exists that you were removed from because of the systems that were or still are in place in this country. How does your experience shape how you see how the law interacts with indigenous people in this country?

BRAD REGEHR: Well, to be to be frank, our legal system has not treated indigenous people, in my view, fairly, I mean, just look at it. We had the 60 scoop. We had the residential school issues. We had the Indian Act being amended in 1927, which prohibited lawyers from representing First Nations in land disputes. And that was in place until 1951. This is after we've had decades of legal surrenders, improper expropriations. First Nations start waking up to what has happened, try to get legal counsel. And the parliament comes and uses the legal system to prevent them from even being able to retain an advocate and threatening those lawyers with imprisonment. This only ended in 1951. You know, that's just one example of what has happened and in my view, and I think I'm supported by case law, Canada's made up of three legal traditions: the French civil law, English common law and indigenous legal traditions. And unfortunately, the legal traditions haven't been given their fair shake.

MG: And when you talk about that and when you talk about it in an explicit way, is that what you were hinting at around the, you know, the need for those uncomfortable conversations, the difficult conversations?

BRAD REGEHR: There's that. There's the difficult conversations on why a teenage girl gets shot by police over a property crime. Well, some people look at that and go, how did this happen? And I think a lot of people just sort of want to forget about it. We can't. There's a systemic problem there. I don't know the full story behind Asia, Hudson's story, but how she ended up there, how it became a situation where a little 14 year old girl gets shot. I don't. Yeah, if that makes you uncomfortable for me to talk about that. I'm not sorry. We've got to talk about this. We've got to think about this.

MG: You describe yourself as unapologetic. How does that go over within your profession?

BRAD REGEHR: Well, no one has said anything to me taking issue with that. A lot of people have congratulated me on what I said and and agree with what I said. I'm sure there are people, particularly in this day and age, who think I am completely wrong for saying that. But there's a lot of people who understand that there are systemic problems and we have to get rid of them.

MG: How do you go about doing that? I know that your organization called for a meeting with David Lametti, the justice minister, about diversity on the federal bench. 42 of 44 judges on the federal bench are white. What's the effect of that?

BRAD REGEHR: It's telling you that there's a problem here because that does not reflect the makeup of Canada. And you can go across the country whether you're looking at provincial courts, territorial courts or superior courts, or courts of appeal, it's going to be the same thing. Have they tried to increase the number of indigenous judges, black judges, people of colour, judges? Yes, but it needs to go further. .

MG: What gets in the way of a more diverse bench do you think?

BRAD REGEHR: I think part of it is perhaps a lack of awareness of what the process is, a lack of mentorship. People may feel that the position doesn't suit them because of various systemic barriers. Perhaps their experience with the justice system. I have heard from people who say that the application process is extremely onerous for some people. There's a requirement to have references who are judges, and not everybody is a civil litigator who knows lots of judges. Some people might not know any judges and it becomes a problem.

MG: Is it, I mean, people talk about, you talked about the great reckoning. One of the parts of the great reckoning is around systemic racism. Is what you're talking about, an example of systemic racism?

BRAD REGEHR: I think so. It's not one of those things where there is overt racism. It's just that there are hidden barriers that sit there. There are people who come into the legal profession and right off the bat have barriers. A lot of Indigenous lawyers come into the profession. They don't come from family legacies. You know, your parents and your grandparents were were lawyers. They're the first people coming in there. They may come from communities that have had challenges with education systems. You know, right off the bat, they've got hurdles to cross that other people don't.

MG: Do you believe that that diversification of the bench needs to extend to the Supreme Court?

BRAD REGEHR: Yes, absolutely. I mean, we have nine judges in the Supreme Court and all great people, all super smart. But we have two vacancies coming up, I think next year and the year after. We haven't had a judge who's not Caucasian ever in the history of Canada and I think the government's going to have to make some real efforts to correct this.

MG: Is that about changing regulations around bilingualism?

BRAD REGEHR: Well, the association, we've taken the position that bilingualism is important. It's important for people to have access to justice in one of the two official languages. But we have raised the issue of this requirement that all nine judges must be bilingual because, in our view, it's going to exclude candidates from the BIPOC community. Looking at the percentage of the population who is officially bilingual, I think it's 17 per cent for overall Canadian society for Indigenous communities. It's down to 10 percent. Then trying to find people who are legally trained and there tends to be a focus on either recruiting or appointing from one of the provincial courts of appeal or often law professors. You know, your pool is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and then trying to find an indigenous person who is officially bilingual, who comes out of that pool. It's really difficult. I think it's a big challenge. And I just. If something's got to change, we can't we can't keep having the highest court in our land not be reflective of our population.

MG: What will it take for communities who are overrepresented within the justice system, particularly indigenous communities in this country, to feel as though that justice. Yes, is being done, but it's also being seen to be done?

BRAD REGEHR: Well, we clearly need some changes to our justice system. And I know that there are people working on it. I don't want to downplay any of that. But we're gonna need further changes. And they can't be led by non-indigenous people, I. Indigenous people have to be involved in working out these changes and they have to be involved in leading it.

MG: And are you optimistic after a summer of reckoning, as you say, where the heat has been on in terms of looking at real change? Are you optimistic?

BRAD REGEHR: I've done my best to be a half glass full kind of person. Sometimes it's hard not to switch to have the half glass empty viewpoint when know you become frustrated and when you see things. But I am hopeful that in our country, things are going the right way. I'm just hoping that it can actually be implemented.

MG: Brad Regehr, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

BRAD REGEHR: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Brad Regehr is the first indigenous president of the Canadian Bar Association. He's a lawyer in Winnipeg with the national firm, Maurice Law. That is The Current forw today. Stay tuned. CBC Radio One, Q is up next. Christopher Walken speaking with Tom Power. The great actor. He's been spending some time in the Canadian West. You'll hear about that coming up on the program. You can catch up on anything you missed on our program through the CBC Listen app. In the meantime, I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: theme]

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