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The Current Transcript for October 1, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MARY MAKER: Every single refugee out there wants to be seen. Wants people to open their hearts to them and welcome them and make them feel like human rather than a number.

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been 70 years since countries around the world signed on to help people forced to flee their homes due to war, famine and other threats. Today, there are more than 82 million people displaced worldwide. In 30 minutes, meet one of them and hear her extraordinary story of hardship, perseverance and how a desire to be more than just a number took her from a refugee camp to a university campus. Also this morning: What does it mean to be a conservative in Canada in 2021?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I want to earn that trust of Canadians, and that's why we're going to work tirelessly to examine what went right, what went wrong because we could be back in an election in another 18 months.

MG: After three consecutive election losses, we'll hear from three party insiders and what the Conservatives stand for today, whether there's really room for both moderates and those on the fringes, and whether Erin O'Toole will still be around to find all of that out. But we begin with the fight over old growth forests in British Columbia. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

The fight over old growth forests continues in B.C

Guests: Patrick Canning, Ken Wu and Cliff Atleo Jr.

PROTESTER: We're not endangering the road, we're not endangering wildlife, and we're not featuring erosion conditions. We're standing on the road.

POLICE OFFICER: And you're saying you're tired of this, but you said you're here to act in the lawful way of that. [cross talk] I'm tired too. But nowhere in that, does it say that legally this is allowed to be happening.

MG: That's an exchange between a police officer and a protester at what has become Canada's largest act of civil disobedience in history. More than 1100 people have been arrested at the Fairy Creek blockade on southern Vancouver Island. Activists have been living near a logging area on First Nations land for over four months, trying to protect old growth trees. It is one of the last un-logged old growth valleys outside of BC's parks system, and it contains some of the biggest yellow cedars in the world. Protesters say they're there to stay. After a B.C. Supreme Court ruling this week denied an application by the logging company Teal-Jones to extend an injunction against the camp.

[SOUNDCLIP]

RAZ: My camp name is Raz. I'm from Chilliwack. I'm protesting old growth logging and this police state and what these industry folks are doing.

KATHRYN MARLOW: What did you think when you got the news about the injunction?

RAZ: My God, I was elated. It was amazing.

CHARLOTTE JONES: My name is Charlotte Jones. I come from [inaudible], but I currently live in Victoria. This morning, industry decided that they're going to remove the orange gate that they had put up first, and then they dig a really big trench.

RAZ: We're allowed to be here now. The injunction has ended. We're allowed to be here peacefully protesting and occupying the road, and they are stopping us from doing that or trying to.

KM: How does that make you feel?

RAZ: Pretty pissed. But honestly, I'm here and I'm not going anywhere.

MG: Those are two of the protesters speaking with the CBC's Kathryn Marlow. Patrick Canning is one of the lawyers representing protesters. Patrick, good morning.

PATRICK CANNING: Good Morning Matt.

MG: From your perspective, why is this a significant decision?

PC: Well, it's kind of a landmark decision in this line of case law, as everyone in Canada will know, you know, these battles over old growth logging have been going on out here for over 30 years and it's one of the few cases where companies seeking an injunction has been refused that by the court.

MG: BC Supreme Court Judge Douglas Thompson said that the RCMP behaviour at the protest was the reason that he wouldn't extend the injunction. What has that police behaviour done on the line there to the mood in and around those blockades?

PC: Well, it's certainly soured the mood. I mean, you know, people levelled the blame in both directions in that sense. And I know, you know that there's been some reporting on sort of the escalation of both the RCMP and protester tactics over the years. But, you know, the court noted that the protesters have adhered to a policy of peaceful protests, non-violent and also that they were, you know, that they were intelligent, good citizens, largely that were interested in the common good. So to have them deal with what they view as sort of extreme enforcement tactics... It's definitely changed things on the ground.

MG: And so what does the decision practically mean for what protesters can and cannot do?

PC: Well. You know, that largely depends on what happens next and what has already happened next sort of, since the ruling came down. You know, it could have changed things, not that much if the RCMP had chosen to stick around and enforce sort of the right.... You know what we think of as the regular criminal law like charges like mischief or criminal code charge for obstructing a public road? But instead, the RCMP chose to kind of pack it up, pack it up and leave the area. And because of that realistically, if people choose to stand on the road, I guess for now they're not going to be arrested for that. So Teal-Jones, has kind of apparently... as was heard, you know, in the quote at the beginning, removed some gates and dug trenches and roads to stop people from accessing the area.

MG: What are you hearing from your clients? I mean, people are pretty dug in. We heard in that little clip one of the protesters saying that she's not going anywhere. So what are you hearing from your clients, including the Pacheedaht First Nation elder Bill Jones, about what their plans are?

PC: Well, Bill's been really clear from the get go, and his message has never wavered that he's also not going anywhere until these trees are protected. You know, Bill is not just an elder, but he's elderly, and this is a stand that he's decided to make, is that these trees are, you know, they're his inheritance that he wants to be able to leave to the next generations. And he doesn't intend to stop until they're protected.

MG: And so when you say until these trees are protected, I mean, Teal-Jones says that it's going to appeal the decision that ends the injunction against the blockades. What has to happen now to resolve this?

PC: Well, I mean, ultimately. It's not going to be resolved in the courts because, you know, we can go back and forth and they can come back and get an injunction and then we can get it stopped again and this could go on for years. Ultimately, there needs to be some sort of negotiated solution. And we have in court a couple of weeks ago, we served on the other parties and notice to mediate, which triggers a formal mediation process amongst the parties and which includes the province because we added the province as a party. And we'll see where that goes. I'm hopeful that that can go somewhere and ultimately, you know, this has to benefit the first nation and the Pacheedaht people as well.

MG: But ultimately, that's going to... I mean, if people say they aren't going anywhere and Bill Jones says that he's not going anywhere until those trees are protected, that means that there can't be any logging there.

PC: From Bill Jones perspective?

MG: Yeah, and from your clients perspective.

PC: That's right. That's right, and I mean, we saw recent reporting on CBC and elsewhere that the federal government just announced a 50 million dollar old growth protection fund. Now John Horgan criticised that as not being enough, which, you know, I tend to, I agree it would be great if it were more, but it's enough to get started and it's enough to do something here. And that's the kind of solution that we need.

MG: Patrick, good to speak with you. Thank you.

PC: Thank you.

MG: Patrick Canning is a lawyer on Vancouver Island specialising in environmental and First Nations law. As we mentioned, the logging company Teal-Jones is planning an appeal to the decision that ends the injunction against blockades. Some members of the Pacheedaht First Nation have been on the front lines of the protest against the logging at Fairy Creek, but they are at odds with the elected chief and council. The council is in favour of some logging on traditional territories and the ban has a private revenue sharing agreement with Teal-Jones. Chief Jeff Jones is asking the protesters vacate Pacheedaht First Nation territory. In a statement, he says "From now on, our First Nations will decide what is best for our lands, our waters and our resources for the sustainment and well-being of present and future generations". Cliff Atleo Jr. is an assistant professor who teaches indigenous governance and resource relationships at Simon Fraser University. He's also a member of the Nuu-chah-nulth and Tsimshian Nations. Ken Wu is executive director of Endangered Ecosystems Alliance. Good morning to you, both.

KEN WU: Good morning.

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: Hello.

MG: Cliff Atleo Jr. How difficult, given what I've just said, is it to unravel that question of who speaks for the indigenous community in this kind of situation?

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: Yeah, it certainly is a complicated issue, and we saw this with with the Wet'suwet'en and the Coastal GasLink issue as well as people started to learn that there were different governments or hereditary governments and there, you know, elected chief and council. And historically, of course, the government of Canada and provincial government has only acknowledged the chief in council and less so traditional governments. And so it can be difficult to understand who is speaking and for what and on what basis.

MG: Do we know who is speaking for what and on what basis? I mean, it's difficult, but how do you unravel that? How should people interpret that?

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: I guess with a great deal of patience. I mean, there's lots of historical context here. And the, you know, the colonial imposition of forms of government by the government of Canada has made it really challenging to understand that and their refusal to acknowledge traditional governments. I'm not privy to the the exact details in the Pacheedaht case, but certainly we're, you know, through news stories, we're hearing different voices express different feelings about what should happen.

MG: Ken, from your perspective, how receptive is the environmental movement to the message of Chief Jones, who, as I mentioned in that statement, is asking protesters to leave and says that our First Nations will decide what's best for our lands?

KW: Well, I'm a full believer that the First Nations leadership, it's not even just ethically but, legally the courts agree that First Nations consent is vital for any major land use changes, including for protected areas. The only way to get there to actually protecting old growth forests across British Columbia is if First Nations consent and are interested in protecting these old growth forests, and if they're not, then those areas will not get protected. So the vital thing is that the provincial government, it's not about the federal government, primarily the province is in control of provincial forestry policy and the implementation of the Old Growth Strategic Review Panel's recommendations. They've got to put the money up themselves. That's the main thing is that First Nations have revenue sharing agreements, the actual 10 years joint ventures, employment agreements all across the board, across most of British Columbia. The only way to save old growth is if the province takes this responsibility and puts up hundreds of millions of dollars to help finance a sustainable economic alternative for First Nations, like the federal government has not just 50 million, but they've put up hundreds of millions now for the expansion of protected areas in British Columbia, including in old growth, and B.C. has got to do the same.

MG: I want to talk about what that might look like in a moment, but first, let's talk about just briefly the area itself. I mean, the logging company Teal-Jones sent us a statement about its activities at Fairy Creek, the statement says: "To this day, most harvesting in the area is in second growth. We harvest some old growth as well as it has unique characteristics needed for some value added products. It is a myth that old growth in the area is at risk". Ken Wu, is it a myth that old growth in that area is at risk?

KW: This is complete bunk, and this has been going on for decades. You know, even the previous Premier Gordon Campbell had said or a couple of years ago had said that there's more old growth today than there was 100 years ago. This is the kind of and it keeps on going through spin. What there is is that you have a lot of lower productivity, old growth across a lot of the landscape, so higher elevations and boggy landscapes. But in the TSL 46, in that whole Pacheedaht Teal-Jones Region, it's some of the greatest ancient forest that have ever existed in the Walbran Valley and Edinburgh Mountain, Eden Grove, Fairy Creek area, Swan Valley, and they've shaved off most of the valley bottoms. So you largely have a few patches of valley bottoms, some valleys like Fairy Creek, and then you have mid elevation slopes left. Across the province they've logged off 92 percent of the high productivity old growth. The best stuff that you think about is old growth, only three percent. These are the facts: only three percent of the remaining old growth is the high productivity classic forest giants. Most of it is sub alpine scrub and boggy landscapes and small trees growing on steep rock faces. So the loophole of the government is always to cite the statistics of all the scrubby old growth, small old growth to save that and to log the big and this is the kind of spin going on with Teal-Jones, and it is true. There's a lot of second growth and we're saying log that sustainably, but save the last tracks of old growth.

MG: Cliff Atleo Jr., there are many First Nations leaders who are favouring, as we've said, some sort of plan for logging. They say that it's essential for the financial well-being of their communities, that these are jobs that people depend upon. It's easy to reduce this down to a trade off between economic development and environmental conservation, but if you do that, what do you miss out on?

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: Yeah, I mean, the thing to remember from my perspective is that, you know, many indigenous communities are struggling economically, and there's no secret as to why they were. So there has been a lot of stuff in the news recently about [inaudible] fisheries case, for example, and in 2002 they launched a case. We had six fishing boats left in our fleet, down from a height of 200. You know, if you go back into the 80s or 70s, so you had communities on the West Coast that have lost almost all of their livelihoods to a point where they are now between the proverbial rock and a hard place and looking for economic opportunities for their community to work. And so I think that's an important context to remember in this case. I wouldn't say that logging needs to happen per se, it is a part of it. But I think, you know, I agree with Ken in the sense that the governments, both provincial and federal, really need to step up to the plate and recognize that their people do need jobs. People do need to put food on the table. And how that happens doesn't specifically have to, you know, endanger old growth forests.

MG: Ken, tell me a bit more about this. The premier of British Columbia says that this issue is intractable. What specifically would you like to see from his government, but also the federal government to help resolve this? You've hinted at this already, but tell me more about that.

KW: You know, the fundamental engine or driver to solve the old growth issue is provincial funding. The federal government can earmark a bigger subset of the already allocated hundreds of millions. That's true. They've allocated 50 million. They can allocate a bigger subset, but they have put up hundreds of millions. But the province primarily is the one that has got to put up at least 300 million plus, we need about 600 million in total to get the deferrals and the protection in place for the most at risk old growth types identified by the Science Advisory Panel.

MG: So what does that look like? Are you buying the land? Are you compensating Teal-Jones? I mean, where would that money go?

KW: OK, well, six hundred million I'm referring to is essentially indigenous guardians and conservation financing. So we did a conservation financing to help First Nations establish economic, sustainable economic alternatives like clean energy, tourism, sustainable seafoods, value added second growth forestry in the whole mix. A variety of things that's been done in the Great Bear Rainforest has been moving forward and Clayoquot Sound, you know, Cliff will know all about that. And in [inaudible] as well, anywhere there's been protection of old growth forests, First Nations have always moved to save old growth when they've been given an economic alternative. It is ultimately the choice of the First Nations leadership, but the province is primarily responsible. They’ve got to get those deferrals in place, and they've got to get the funding in order to help finance the sustainable economic alternatives. At the same time, they've got to support forestry dependent communities and forestry workers to buy incentives and regulations to develop the value added second growth forest industry. And there's probably in some places for timber licences and other aspects they may have to pay some compensation for the large licensees in those areas, but the prime thing is it's on John Horgan's shoulders to finance that solution. Right now, the federal government stepped forward. They've got to do it. Provincial forest policy is in the purview of the provincial government.

MG: Cliff Atleo, are you optimistic? And again, Ken suggested other areas where perhaps we've seen this already. Are you optimistic that when you're taking a look at Fairy Creek, that there is the possibility of a resolution here?

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: I think I have to be a little bit, you know, one of the things that seems to play out in these situations is the development of political will. And we've, you know, I heard you say that this was Canada's largest act of civil disobedience, and up until last year, it would have been Clayoquot Sound that we were talking about. So there's, you know, there's a certain level of momentum that I think governments can't ignore. And then this ruling regarding the injunction. I definitely agree that that is also quite unprecedented. Normally, we think of the courts and the police, as you know, from an indigenous perspective, as thugs for big business and to have that pause a bit or to have that, you know, a second thought, I think is really significant, and I think we need to seize that opportunity from a political perspective and begin as Canning said the negotiations.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have, I mean, what do you think is at stake, Cliff? I mean, there's a lot that's at play right now and emotions have been high over the course of the summer, certainly. But right now as well, what's at stake?

CLIFF ATLEO JR.: You know, I mean, for me, it's also like because I'm a professor, I tend to think about these things in larger historical and economic contexts. I, you know, this last summer was one of the worst we've seen for forest fires. And I think the realities of climate change have really hit home for a lot of people. That heat wave, you know a weekend was devastating for hundreds of people that we lost in this province, and so I think or I'm hopeful that some of these crises will compel us to to be more creative, to be more long term in our thinking, both politically and economically.

MG: Ken, just very briefly for you what's at stake here?

KW: These are the grandest forests on the planet with some of the biggest and oldest living organisms that have ever existed and the most endangered ecosystems, so what's at stake are endangered species, culture, tourism, the climate, clean water, wild salmon. So much is at stake here, and Horgan can get this done if he chooses to.

MG: Glad to speak with you both about this. It's complicated, but you have done great work in walking us through it. Thank you very much.

BOTH: Thank you so much.

MG: Cliff Atleo Jr. is a Tsimshian and Nuu-chah-nulth scholar and assistant professor at Simon Fraser University School of Resource and Environmental Management. Ken Wu is the executive director of the Endangered Ecosystems Alliance. You're CBC news is next, and then:

MARY MAKER: I know what it is like to be stuck to feel like no one in the world even cares about you. You know, as a refugee, you're just another number. And when somebody just tries to shine a light on you and come and invest in you, it's literally everything.

MG: There are more than 82 million people in this world who know the feeling that Mary Maker is describing, of being stuck, being treated as a number. There are people forcibly displaced in their homes by violence and conflict 70 years since the refugee convention was signed. We'll talk about what's changed and what hasn't. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

How a Sudanese student went from a refugee camp to a university campus

Guests: Mary Maker and Gillian Triggs

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, the federal conservatives may have had a new leader this kick at the electoral can, but it did not translate into seat gains in the House of Commons as the party takes stock. We'll talk about the future of conservatism in Canada that's coming up in 30 minutes. But first, how to help 82 million people who can't go home.

[Music: Theme]

MG: 70 years ago, world leaders at a U.N. conference approved the 1951 Refugee Convention, creating the framework for the U.N. Refugee Council to mark the milestone. The UNHCR has a new podcast it's called 'Forced to Flee'. It tells the stories of a few of the more than 82 million people forcibly displaced from their homes. Mary Maker has been one of them. Her story is one of resilience, which is a theme that we're exploring this season. On The Current, Mary left what is now South Sudan as a child. It's been a long journey for her to where she is today on a scholarship at the University of Minnesota studying theatre. Mary, good morning.

MARY MAKER: Good morning.

MG: Thank you for joining us.

MARY MAKER: I am excited to be joining all of you today.

MG: What do you remember about your childhood in South Sudan? You were very young when you had to flee, but I mean, what are the memories that you still have of that time?

MARY MAKER: It's a lot. Some are starting to get fuzzy, but some are hard to let go. You know, when I say a lot, I remember the war, not only the war, but also happy memories of playing with other kids and the happy memories of being with my mother and that kind of love. I also do remember the painful memories of having to hide and constantly run and constantly leave from one place to the other, just moving along. Like a lot.

MG: Do you remember the day that you had to leave? That your family had to flee?

MARY MAKER: I just remember having to leave the small village that we called home after, like some bombs were dropped off by these crazy planes. We called them the 'antonovs' growing up, and my mother just felt like it wasn't safe anymore. Most of the time, it would either be raids by a nearby village or most of the time it would be from these terrifying planes that would just drop anything. As a child, I don't know what was the political dispute that was happening in the country, but I just knew I wasn't safe to stay in my place and my parents knew better and we had to leave.

MG: You ended up in Kenya. What was the journey like from leaving, as you said, that village that you called home to Kenya?

MARY MAKER: It was a painful one, I can say, moving from one place to the other. It was constant attacks after the other, and we never literally found a sanctuary that would call home. I remember we went to Ethiopia at first with my mother, and still she didn't feel stable there. And you know, at the same time, we were trying to see if we could recognize some family members that were able to flee. And she had heard about the Kakuma refugee camp in Kenya, and she knew a few relatives that had escaped there. And so we started the journey from Itnag in Ethiopia all the way back to to South Sudan and strait to Kenya. When when we made it to Kenya, there was a sense of peace, you know, not... the thought of moving again was no longer there. I could see my mother settled and feeling safe. I don't know what the aspect of safety meant to her, but I just saw her settled.

MG: What did you hear? You got to the border and what is the story? You heard something at the border...

MARY MAKER: When we made it to the border. I just remember some U.N. officials coming and getting people to the reception in the Kakuma refugee camp. All I could hear from the other people travelling because this was like a converging point at [inaudible]. You know, you hear people talking about stories of loss or like all these, these militia group that will be attacking, you know, it's just like a lot of propaganda going on. And also like people sharing memories of having lost somebody. And as a child, your mind cannot conceive all these aspects of loss. And so most of the time, I would try to go play with the new kids that are there, like in this reception centre together, even if you don't speak the same language as you can imagine coming from different ethnic backgrounds and different languages. And yet we have something in similar. The fact that we have been driven out of our homes to meet at this point of seeking refuge.

MG: What was life like in the refugee camp?

MARY MAKER: It was a mixture of fun and uncertainties. You don't know whether this is going to be permanent. You see your parents still longing to go home. You see the whole crazy procedure of documentation of even being called a refugee. Just the whole idea of, is it going to happen again? Are the host community going to take us in or are we going to be just another community invading, you know, there's just a lot to grasp at this point. At the same time, we are being introduced to school. I remember going into my first classroom and I see so many other kids, and I think the first thought was, is my mother abandoning me? In this school, the whole idea of going to school was so new to me, but I really felt happy because I saw other kids that were coming from all different backgrounds [inaudible] kids, Ethiopian kids, kids from Rwanda. And I'm also there. The majority of the kids were from South Sudan, and we all don't speak the same language, but we could sing the same songs or just being taught English and Swahili at the same time. The refugee camp is just like so many backgrounds and so many cultural representation being brought forward. So the idea of learning a new culture, learning a new language, although at this time I was getting tired of learning new languages every time you know, I'm like every time we move from one place to the other, you had to connect languages as you go along and I'm like, Oh, I'm so tired of learning something new. But at the same time, it's so enthusiastic to see other kids very passionate, to learn it together with you. So it was just like a mixture of fun and being uncertain of whether this is, is this my new home? Why is it a desert? Why is it a semi-arid? I'm used to being in a farmland or something around that, you know, like my mom is a fisher woman. I don't know if I should call it that way. And there's no river or anything around it. Geographical differences from home, and it was just a lot to take in as a kid.

MG: What did education mean to you in all of that?

MARY MAKER: I was scared. At first, I thought it was a space where I was going to be left. I saw many parents leaving their kids in the war, as it is a burden to have to carry a child for all those long miles. And I was really scared when my mom dropped me at this [inaudible] Nursary school and she left and I cried so badly. But the next day, I literally stayed with her for a whole week at home not wanting to go to school. And she gave me an option of either having to do house chores with her or going to school, I chose school, of course, and going to school was fun. We sang a lot of songs. I think like singing and music, literally [inaudible] and role-playing, like we would play house. Most of the time during our break times like and you get to like, pick up roles that you want to be in the future or something around that. I just felt like I was being given an opportunity to dream. You know, I was being taught how to write my name. I think that is what drew me to writing even, just being able to write my name and showing it to my mom, Hey, I can write my name now or something around that. And having to bring something back to my mom every time I came from school. Hey, listen to this poem that I learnt from school or like this song and I just so like her eyes lite. And as a kid, you want that approval from your parents. So I did it over and over again. Wanting to go to school.

MG: How does that kid in the refugee camp who's learning how to recite the poem and write her name? How does she end up in Minnesota studying theatre?

MARY MAKER: It's a long journey, and it's a journey of rejection and a journey of acceptance and being invested in. I remember leaving Kakuma refugee camp. My father came up to the camp for the first time. I had not seen him during the war. I had no idea who he was in my life. And he came up and took me to a small town in Nakuru to go to a boarding school. And of course, there was a huge difference between the boarding school that I was in and the nursery school that I was in Kakuma refugee camp. Fewer students, you know, books. There's just so much resources compared to the refugee camp where we were struggling to even get the little information that was being thrown at us. So I went through a whole rigorous elementary school system. Of course, it's it's deeply rooted in British kind of education system. And it was just fun to get all this knowledge. And I was allowed to be a feminist, which is a taboo in my community and I saw women speaking up. And you can imagine I'm coming from this community where my mom had been shrunk, had been made small and had been taught not to question anything. And now I'm in school and I'm being taught to question everything like, I really love that. It was during this time of being in school, that loss was coming in. I lost my... I lost my mom in 2009, my younger brother, my dad. It was just like a whole. I don't know. It was so much take in and I knew back to the camp is where I could go, I know no one in the cities. I'm a foreigner in Kenya, definitely with my skin colour and my height anyone can notice me from any place. So I went back to the camp to take care of my younger siblings at sixth grade, dropping out at that time. I was so devastated, you know? And then it was in that moment that well-wishes to my dad will be like, Oh my God, we can still give you this, we can still pay your tuition. And I went back to school, but again, my father died in 2012 and everything collapsed. I feel like for me and now it was finishing high school was as a result of actually begging my way to school and having to wait. I come from a big family of 17, you know, and at this point in life, I have to beg anyone that I see to actually sponsor my education. I was successfully able to finish high school in 2015, but I failed. You can imagine if you only go to school for one semester that the next one, you don't have tuition. It becomes really impossible. And it was still at this time when, you know the backlash from the community of like, Hey, she's a girl, what is she doing in school? She's trying to run away from responsibility. She needs to get married. This is going to be an income generating thing for us. So I'm fighting not only having to go to school with no resources, but also having to fight a culture that doesn't see the value of me as a woman going to school or even having a voice. In 2016, I was able to knock from one door to the other, begging schools to take me in. And you know, this is where you have to use your theater skills and pimp yourself out and like, Hey, y'all. You know, if you take me, you're going to have these benefits and such and such. And I think some of them just so hilarious and chased me. But one school in particular just took me in a nest of victory gospel high school, and I was able to finish really well. But the problem was like, Why am I going back? I'm a refugee student. I cannot afford going to college. And so I went back to the refugee camp to teach. I knew there was a dead end, but I wanted the kids to dream. So it did not work out for me. It might have worked out for them. So I came to this refugee camp. I thought it was going to be the temporality and apparently I might die there. You know, like I've seen people live there almost their life, and that's not the kind of life I wanted a life where I'm just refugee, no-one sees beyond that identity, I was able to get into MasterCard Foundation, who paired me with [inaudible] in Minnesota. The thing is, I had no idea I was going to Minnesota. I just knew I had gotten into school, and I remember that moment when the kids were throwing me up like, Oh my God, you made it! All out there, just getting happy and excited. I'm like, What school [inaudible excitement]. and it was, I just noticed that it was extremely cold, like crazily cold. But I really loved it and I just felt. I have been given a moment to dream. I've been given a moment to become myself, to be part of the ordinary,

MG: What an unbelievable story. What an incredible story. When you think about that and you think of those doors that opened and as you said there was loss, there's hardship, there's perseverance. But there's also that idea of being invested in. How important for someone like yourself is that idea of being invested in?

MARY MAKER: I know what it is like to be stuck. To feel like no one in the world even cares about you. You know, as a refugee, you're just another number that has left their country. And it's just like a lot of hopelessness at that point. And I don't know, you feel like no one cares about your existence. And when somebody just tries to shine a light on you and come and invest in you, it's literally everything you feel like you have been dignified again, like someone has seen the humanity in you. You know, most of the time people don't see that. And when someone actually recognises that gives you an opportunity despite you being a refugee. It just opens up a lot of opportunity for you to give back the community. Even right now, as I've been given this opportunity. I'm doing everything that I can to be able to give other refugees the same because I know how it feels like to be in that space of not being seen. And I think this is just the whole reason why I take theater. Theatre is about me being seen it's about other people seeing me on stage, every single refugee that wants to be seen.

MG: When you think about home, where's home for you now?

MARY MAKER: That's a tough question. That is the hardest question I have to answer every time. For me, home is to be loved. To call me at home is still to be given an opportunity to have my siblings with me. It's being given a voice is my home. The aspect or the identity of home keeps changing for me. It comes through friends, through people that value me as a person through opportunities that are given to me through platforms like this one.

MG: You're now at school and you're studying theatre in 10 years when I talk to you. Where do you want to be?

MARY MAKER: Hollywood! [Laughter].Yes! yes. Hollywood. Either Hollywood or New York. I love theatre like New York is the home of theatre. Hollywood is the home of film. Like being an actor, you can navigate through these walls in any way, in any way possible. I want to be able to give as many opportunities as possible, open so many doors to so many refugees out there. Be able to create a platform, especially a theatre platform, a film platform where we can tell and share refugee stories to the whole world so that people are able to see the importance of investing in a people that have been displaced, you know, being able to share stories of of love of joy or, you know, despite this identity, there's just so much to me as Mary other than just having fled.

MG: You're an amazing person. You have an incredible future ahead of you. And yes, quite a story. But it will be exciting. And I hope you, when you're famous in Hollywood or in New York or both, that you'll take our call then in future. In the meantime, thank you for talking to us. It's so great to speak with you, Mary. Thank you very much.

MARY MAKER: I highly appreciate it.

MG: Mary Maker, forced to flee her home in what is now South Sudan when she was a child, she's now on a scholarship at the University of Minnesota, where she is studying theatre. Gillian Triggs is the Assistant High Commissioner for Protection with the United Nations Refugee Agency. She is in Geneva. Gillian, hello to you.

GILLIAN TRIGGS: Hello.

MG: When you listen to that extraordinary story told by Mary Maker of what she has been through perseverance, hardship and, as she mentioned, being invested in. What's going through your mind?

GT: Well, of course it was. It's such a... such a privilege to listen to her tell her story. But the thing that I was thinking about, as she relayed this journey that she described as that she perhaps was being very much... she was being very modest, but I felt that it was very much her own character and her own determination and resilience and a sense of her own worth. That really came across to me and made me feel that that's a magical ingredient to have that sense of... even as a very young child, that learning was so important to her and her future.

MG: She was very clear in saying that she is not a number. She is much more than a number and the refugees that she is working with now, who are still in the camp, are not numbers, but the numbers. Worth speaking about, I mean, when this convention was signed 70 years ago, there were two million people who were displaced, now there are 82, more than 82 million people. Tell me more about what's changed in the last decade.

GT: Well, the numbers have doubled in the last decade. They're now 82.4 Million, as you say, probably a serious underestimate of those people who are either forced to cross national boundaries as refugees or people who are displaced in their own country. And there are lots of causes typically, of course, root causes: poverty, inequality, but most importantly, of course, is conflict. And that, of course, led to Mary's situation. Increasingly today it is crime, a bad government, corruption, but also climate change. Increasingly, I think we're going to see displacements with climate change different, of course, from the kind of bombing that Mary describes, and conflict remains the key reason people are displaced.

MG: How has that been exacerbated by the pandemic? I mean, we were speaking in the last few weeks about what's happening in the United States, where Haitians who have been in other countries are now coming to the border. They're find themselves being flown back to a country that they have no connection with because the United States is using the pandemic as a pretence for those flights. How has the pandemic changed the situation?

GT: Well, the pandemic has, of course, led to borders being closed and access to claim asylum, the sort of thing that Mary was able to do. That opportunity was closed. Of course, we've we are advocates and we're very strong in saying that you can both protect your borders and health and allow people to make a claim to asylum. And you can use remote technologies, of course, test for COVID, you can quarantine. There are lots of things you could do, but in far too many cases the health pandemic has provided camouflage or an excuse to turn people back at the borders to push back boats in the name of health.

MG: What are the countries that are hosting the majority of the world's refugees right now?

GT: Nearly 90 per cent of refugees and displaced people are hosted by the poorest and developing countries. Turkey, hosting four million refugees approximately from Syria. We have Bangladesh, a country trying to lift itself off the floor of poverty is hosting and has done for four years the Rohingya from Myanmar, Colombia that has 1.7 million Venezuelan refugees. The other countries, of course, I must mention Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt.

MG: How would you assess how a country, a wealthy country like Canada, has done when it comes to welcoming refugees?

GT: Well, Canada is a leader. Canada not only allows and has provided protection to hundreds of thousands of refugees and dealt with emergencies quickly and with humanity. But it's also got very good programmes on education, which again brings us back to Mary's story allowing what we call regular pathways educational scholarships, labour mobility, family reunion, community sponsorships.

MG: Is there more the country could be doing in the midst of an escalating crisis? What else could Canada be doing, do you think?

GT: I'd like to see Canada advocating with other countries and maybe matching or pairing with other countries, weaker countries who are hosting so many refugees to help them improve their protection within those other countries. In other words, Canada can't take, you know, vast numbers. It has to do it in a way that's consistent with its own processes, with its own need capacity to absorb people. But I think to see Canada providing more technical and financial assistance to poorer countries as they host the majority of people in need of protection would be something I would advocate for.

MG: You mentioned climate. What are you most concerned about when you take a look at the fate of the world's refugees in the coming years?

GT: Well, we certainly see the impact of climate displacement in some cases, floods and hurricanes, the cyclones in others desertification, their lands are gone, their feed for cattle are gone. And that leads to fights over water, over land. The right to claim asylum is so important it's saved millions of lives. And I'm very worried that as we get further and further away from that period in 1951 of protecting those two million displaced people, we're losing, we're losing our commitment as an international community to those principles. We must protect each other. We're on the same planet. And I think in a way, while COVID has brought a tragic death toll, now nearly five million people. It's also shown us the interconnectedness. And I think that's true more than ever for people who are fleeing violence and persecution.

MG: Gillian Triggs, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

GT: Thank you very much.

MG: Gillian Triggs is the Assistant Commissioner for protection with the U.N. Refugee Agency. To hear more stories like that of Mary Maker's and of people who have been forced to leave their countries seeking a better life. You can find the UNHCR new podcast, it's called 'Forced to Flee'. You'll get it on their web page or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Well, coming up after your regional update, the Conservative Party of Canada has launched a review into their electoral strategy after a campaign that saw them lose seats. We'll talk about the future of the party and the political fate of Erin O'Toole. Coming up in 90 seconds and we'll hear from you as well as we dig into the mailbag on the subject of violence against health care workers. All of that to come. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

Experts weigh in on the future of the Conservative Party

Guests: Ken Boessenkool, Katy Merrifield and Dennis Matthews

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. The federal election may have ended, but Erin O'Toole is still campaigning, this time for his job as leader of the Conservatives. His party is at a bit of a crossroads, having lost three straight elections. And so next week, O'Toole will meet with his caucus for the first time since the vote. To talk about what it means to be conservative in Canada these days, I'm joined by three party insiders, Ken Boessenkool is a professor at the Max Bell School of Public Policy at McGill University. He was a senior campaign adviser to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and worked with Preston Manning and Stockwell Day, amongst others. Katy Merrifield is the VP of Wellington Advocacy in Vancouver and the former director of communications to Alberta Premier Jason Kenney and former B.C. Premier Christy Clark. And Dennis Matthews is president of Creative Currency, a former advisor to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and a veteran of numerous political campaigns. Good morning, everyone.

KATY MERRIFIELD: Good morning.

KEN BOESSENKOOL: Good Morning.

DENNIS MATTHEWS: Good Morning.

MG: Let me start by asking you all the same question. Your party has now lost three straight elections. Katy, what is the problem with the federal conservatives?

KM: Well, look like all large scale big tent political parties. There's going to be a variety of factions within the party itself, from progressives to social conservatives, fiscal hawks, western reformers, populists, et cetera. And so the key, I think, to start off with is ensuring that everyone within the party feels like they have a home. Everyone sees a part of themselves in the party. And so I think some folks felt like they started to lose themselves within the tent, and it's difficult to broaden your appeal if you hollow out the base. And I think we saw that in some of the electoral outcome.

MG: We'll come back to that, certainly. Ken Boessenkool what's the issue with the federal conservatives coming out of an election three times on the losing side of things?

KB: Look, I think the party is moving toward a new definition of conservatism. I think it's a healthy definition and those things take time. I think the party is moving toward finding its feet. And I think Erin O'Toole did a fabulous job of taking the next step of moving this party in the right direction.

MG: A fabulous step? For three elections the party's been on the losing side of the ledger.

KB: Sure, but the Liberals have been on the losing side of three elections in a row in the past two, so they didn't win each election, but it's by no means out or down for the count. We're not sitting in Ottawa with two seats.

MG: Dennis Matthews, from your perspective, I mean, is there anything that's gone wrong with the Conservatives over the course of those elections?

DM: Yeah, I think the problem is not enough people are considering voting conservative in the first place. I don't mean voting. I mean, even considering. It's a brand and relevancy problem, and it's a problem that's most acute in the parts of the country that are really growing and changing the fastest and this is the suburbs and some of the regional centres around the country. It includes a lot of multicultural communities, for example. This isn't a problem that can necessarily be solved overnight. The Conservative Party of Canada is a household brand. There's hardly a person in this country who doesn't know or think or believe something about the party. And so when you need to go through a shift and and find ways to become more relevant for the times and for the decades that we're in now, these things take time. And you looking at the past campaign here, thirty six days spread out over the summer. Very difficult to pivot and shift your party in a meaningful way in such a short period of time. But fundamentally, the problem, not enough people are open at the moment to voting conservative in the first place. It's stuck at that one third of the country.

MG: So let me ask you that as a marketing expert, if this is a brand issue. What does the party need to do to appeal to more Canadians, do you think?

DM: Yes. If you look at policies as the product and the brand is what people sort of see and think and believe, it's finding some ways to do some things that are a little unexpected. It's finding some ways to introduce yourselves into the concerns of people, and yet sort of knock on somebody's door and say, What? What are you thinking about? What's concerning you today? Finding a way to be top of mind, with solutions to some of those problems and too often the party has sort of drifted into the parts of the country that are already there. It's how do you find a way to add on and become relevant and interesting and in ways that are maybe some foreign territory?

MG: Katy, what do you make of this? I mean, in part, this is something that, you know, commentators have been saying the party doesn't appeal to or speak to a diverse Canadian population. Ninety five percent of the caucus is white. There are only 22 women out of 119 MPs. What does that say about who the party is attracting as candidates?

KM: I think that what we're seeing here is some confusion and kind of speaking to what both Dennis and Ken have said. Like, I didn't disagree with Erin O'Toole's strategy. I just thought it was a bit of a surprise. They took a gamble and they really made a push for the centre. And for a lot of outsiders like this, this kind of strategy will seem intuitive. You know, you're a large brokerage party you're trying to attract millennials, women, people of colour, et cetera, and so adopting more of a centrist strategy seems like an absolute no brainer. But I think the challenge that surfaced is especially about halfway through the campaign, there seem to be a bit of a lack of contrast with the Liberals. And so when some conservatives feel like the conservative proposition is too close to the Liberals and they start to look at O'Toole's leadership run, which was classified, I would say it's more of like a true blue. They start to doubt the party's authenticity. And so I think conservative members would have really benefited with more time to understand O'Toole's strategy to be brought along with this rationale prior to the election window. That certainly would have would have helped not only solidify the base, but also attract those very demographics that I just outlined.

MG: Ken, why isn't the party attracting those demographics? Why isn't it appealing to the voters that it needs to win, in the 905 around Toronto and also in Vancouver, in the Lower Mainland, where the party lost seats this election?

KB: Erin O'Toole has moved the party to the mainstream on climate change. He had what all the experts said was a credible climate change plan. I think that was important. He addressed a number of issues that had caused problems for previous leaders and made his position clear. So I think what Erin O'Toole did going into the election was clear out a bunch of undergrowth that prevented people from voting for him, and that was very important for him to do. And what that meant was is when he went into the election and Trudeau stumbled, he was quickly able to draw alongside Justin Trudeau, and I think he would not have been able to do that. Trudeau would have coasted to victory like he did in the in the last 2019 election had O'Toole not prepared himself and the party on these critical issues to put himself within the mainstream. What he didn't do and what he needs to do now is to close the deal with Canadians. What are conservative solutions to non conservative traditional problems? What are conservative solutions to housing challenges? What are conservative solutions to child care? Which he did speak to in this election, which was a very good thing. What are conservative solutions to people who struggle with low income? And I think those are the questions that a Conservative Party of today needs to speak to, to reach out to those communities.

MG: How worried are you that the party seems to be, I mean, coming out of this election that there's a divide, it seems like that is emerging along rural and suburban lines as well as, you know, the progressive conservatives and the old Reform wing, Ken?

KB: I don't see any divide between progressive conservatives and old reformers. I think that's a long time ago now. Look, there's always been a rural/urban divide. Concerns of people that live in rural communities is different to people who live in urban communities and the differences between the suburbs and the downtown. The Conservatives aren't going to do well in downtown Toronto or downtown Vancouver because that's not where our votes that we can get are the votes that we need are votes in the suburbs and we need to figure out how to balance the need to keep our rural voters onside with getting these new voters in the suburban areas. And I think that means figuring out conservative solutions to modern challenges.

MG: Katy, Erin O'Toole have tried to bridge some of those gaps, and now he has this fight on his hands. Not just, you know, an existential fight for what the party may or may not be, but he has to fight for his leadership as well. This is what he said the day after the election.

[SOUNDCLIP]

ERIN O'TOOLE: I'm proud of the gains we made last night for the first time in a decade back in Newfoundland and Labrador, some new members of our caucus from across the country, some new generation of talent, and we're closer in dozens upon dozens of ridings, but not close enough. I want to earn that trust of Canadians, and that's why we're going to work tirelessly to examine what went right, what went wrong.

MG: Katy, you started off by saying in some ways that some people don't see themselves in the party. Tell me more about that and how you saw that play out over the course of this election.

KM: In the leadership race Erin O'Toole had a, I think, further to the right, true blue platform, which earned him a number of votes. When we went into the general election, it appeared like he had done almost a 180 in terms of strategy, tone, approach, policy. I actually quite liked the direction that he was taking in the general election. I think it made sense if we're trying to attract a number of new demographics. But the key here is time, and I think Erin O'Toole was was faced with a number of challenges. It is impossible to get media coverage as an opposition leader in the middle of a pandemic. The Conservatives were more than 10 points behind at the start of this campaign. Nobody had any expectation that he was going to do as well as he did, and so had he had a little bit more time to bring conservative members along with his new strategy, as well as have a more proper introduction to the Canadian public. You know, I think that we would have seen a more effective outcome on election night.

MG: You use the word 'the base' early on, I mean, what did the base make of the fact that he ran as a true blue conservative who talked about taking back Canada, talked about scrapping the carbon tax and then those positions changed not even in the course of the election campaign, but after he became leader. Where did that leave the base, Katy?

KM: And that's where I feel like some people, and they're being quite public and open about this felt betrayed, and you hit the nail on the head with a number of issues like gun control. That's where the conservative campaign, I think, really lost the momentum that they had successfully built up, a bit of a reversal on the carbon tax, the change in position on conscious rates, a lack of really pushing their agenda in the West on energy policy. You know, modifying Bill C-69, eliminating C-48 folks who have been longtime conservative members view this as a bit of a betrayal. And I think they were just left wondering what happened to this guy that I voted in the leadership race? Where is he?

MG: Where was he? I mean, Dennis Matthews, does he have a credibility problem with members of his own party who supported him on one thing or supported him on a number of things and saw those things change when an election was launched or when he became the leader of the party?

DM: It's less of a... it's less of a credibility problem and more I think folks are looking for understanding from Erin O'Toole, you took this approach during the campaign. We didn't see immediate results but show us how we can get there over this next, whether it's one, two, three or four years until we have a campaign. And I would say, you know, sort of show, don't tell. And, you know, I think how he can maintain his leadership and get some momentum back here and move forward is showing that he has the capacity to do that and lay out some plans, lay out some approaches and doing that, that showing don't tell is going to be a way to sort of break, you know, break through to party members who might be frustrated that he ran a different leadership campaign than a general election campaign.

MG: Ken Boessenkool Do party members know who Erin O'Toole actually is and what he stands for?

KB: You know, the central challenge of a conservative leader in Canada right now is that the people who vote you in and are members of your party live on a different planet than the people who you need to get to victory to win an election. They believe in different things. They have different views on a number of key issues. And so the central challenge is retaining the support of the membership of the base of the party while expanding your coalition to win an election. And that's a very difficult thing. It doesn't mean abandoning your base, but it means making sure that they understand what it is you're doing to win an election. This is the challenge of a conservative leader. How can you make sure that your base still sees in you the person they voted for, while at the same time you have the ability to reach out into those suburbs that you need to win an election?

MG: How much did his stance on vaccines hurt that? Do you think? I mean, there were a number of people who said, Why aren't you saying that members of your party need to be vaccinated? Why aren't you in support of vaccine mandates? How much did that hurt, do you think, Ken?

KB: What I would say to that is he may not have gotten the policy exactly right, but that's less important than I think that he took too long to get the communications right. And in politics, sometimes it's not what you say. It's what people hear. And the time that it took him to come to a position felt like it was too long, felt like he was unsure about what he was doing. And I think that hurt him as much as ultimately where he landed and the position he landed on. And I think this is a... this goes to the campaign team and, you know, it's post-election. We can be a little bit critical. I think there were some issues that came up in this campaign that the campaign team hadn't prepared Erin O'Toole sufficiently for. And those are the kind of things that I think Erin O'Toole needs... not to go in on a speech to the public and say, Boy, I screwed up on this. But I think when it comes to the next convention or it's in some ways Erin O'Toole needs to tell party members, these are some things that I got not quite right and these are the things we're going to do better. I think specifically on the pandemic. I think it just took him too long to get to where he was going, and it felt like he wasn't adequately prepared for the question when it came up. And I put that down to my good friends who were running the campaign.

MG: Katy, let me ask you about the pandemic, about what happened in Alberta. You worked for Jason Kenney. How much of a problem is he and how much of a problem is the mess that Alberta is in when it comes to dealing with COVID? For Erin O'Toole, who was saying that, you know, Jason Kenney should be celebrated for for how he has tackled COVID.

KM: Yeah, I think it's rather easy to try and paint Jason Kenney himself as the villain and and blame the Conservatives misfortune on him. Personally, I reject that. I think Alberta is really hurting right now. Alberta is a very highly polarised place as it pertains to COVID 19. So rather than focus on blaming Jason Kenney proper, I think that the drop in conservative support could also be attributed to just people's discontent with COVID overall.

MG: But he did... Jason Kenney did declare the pandemic over and said,you know, Alberta is open for good and was praised by Erin O'Toole for his approach to the pandemic compared to the federal liberals.

KM: And do I support that kind of absolute statement? No. Do I think that was a communications error? Sure, I will say, though, Kenney was not unique in this way here in British Columbia with an NDP government. Premier John Horgan didn't declare the pandemic over, but he rather gleefully stood at a podium with Dr. Henry and also eliminated all restrictions here in British Columbia.

MG: What about Maxime Bernier, Dennis Matthews? Is he the bogeyman? I mean, the People's Party of Canada more than tripled its vote from the previous election, and there are people who point to that as taking votes away from Erin O'Toole and the federal conservatives. How did that affect the party, particularly in western Canada?

DM: Yeah, the PPC has gone from an irritant to something to keep a genuine eye on over the next couple of years. And this time you look at the results they weren't. They may have played a role in some ridings, but they weren't a difference maker on the ultimate outcome of the campaign. But there are signs that they could be going forward, and so a central challenge is how do you take your members on a journey? Well, in this case, how do you take a part of the country and a bloc of voters who may have a natural home in the Conservative Party but have drifted away? How do you find ways to keep them inside the tent? And going forward that's going to be sort of mission critical for Erin O'Toole and his team. I do think the PPC benefited from a moment in time. We're just talking about vaccines here and vaccine mandates and other things. And you know, there's a broad, broad public consensus that people will do almost anything to get this pandemic over. Well, the people who won't do almost anything. We're looking at the PPC this time and you kind of... I have serious doubts that that will be an issue in the next campaign. But if Erin O'Toole, you've got to find a way to keep the keep the right flank satisfied as you go expand into the suburbs and into the those urban parts of the country that the Conservative Party's been shut out from.

MG: And so Ken, if you're trying to figure out how the leader can close the deal, as you said. And part of that is appealing to those people in the suburbs, many of whom used to live in downtown Toronto or other areas where you said you weren't going to get the votes. Is there room in that tent for people who drifted from the Conservative Party to the PPC?

KB: So a couple of things when Stephen Harper redefined the party said, We're going to grow a bigger tent and that means we're going to lose people. And Stephen Harper lost Joe Clarke and Scott Bryson and still forming a majority government. I don't see the PPC as a very large portion of accessible conservative voters. A lot of them are anti-authoritarian populists who voted for the Green Party the last election. They literally look across the political landscape, ask themselves which party has no chance to form government and vote for them. And there's a group in Canada that do that. Look, the PPC got five percent. That's about as many people who think the moon landing was fake. And so, you know, I'd love to have their votes, but I don't think we should spend a lot of time going after these anti-authoritarian populists. We should spend a lot more time figuring out how we have to win the votes in the suburbs. This group of people were not all accessible conservative voters, and maybe some of them were people we just have to to leave behind in our quest to build a bigger coalition.

MG: What does it mean to be a conservative in Canada in 2021, Ken?

KB: I think the main thing for a conservative today is that we can't be just the party of smaller government, lower deficits, lower debt and free trade. We have to be for those things, but we need to ask ourselves, how do we apply conservative principles to non-traditional conservative problems? What's the conservative answer to the childcare challenge? What's the conservative answer to the pandemic? What's the conservative answer to housing? What's the conservative answer to people who have low, stagnant wages? And we need to ask those questions and people that are in sort of the more thinking/ academic side of that movement, where I tend to reside, need to spend some time writing, thinking and proposing ways in which we can address those issues. And we can't just continue to just talk to the issues that we used to win elections in 2006. We need to ask what are the challenges facing Canadians today and how do we bring a conservative set of values and principles to those problems and solve them?

MG: Dennis, how do you answer that question? What does it mean to be a conservative in this country in 2021?

DM: It's about finding ways to make these conservative principles and values relevant in the parts of the country that are changing the most. And we've talked a lot here about suburbs today, and that's where it is. And finding ways to do that is going to require doing some things that are unexpected or are getting people to notice you. I mean, conservatives have broken barriers before, first woman cabinet minister, first Black MP's. The Bill of Rights. Other things. Things that were unexpected at the time. And conservatives today have to find a way to do some of those things and talk to some of the problems and challenges that we're having in the 2020s that are unique to this decade. Finding ways to do that rooted in some conservative principles and values, but in a way that if you stop and knock on a door in Coquitlam or Whitby or those parts of the country, they say, Wow, those those people have solutions. That's where we got to get to.

MG: What would be unexpected to you in 2021?

DM: I think it's in particular some of the economic challenges that we're facing, whether it's the gig economy, whether it's on issues on child care or other things. I think there's some room there, but even just on the make up of the types of people that are running for the party, I mean, you mentioned the only five percent of the caucus is white, finding some ways to better reach out to the type of candidates that people might look at and say, Well, I didn't think people like them are conservatives. Well, maybe I am too.

MG: Katy, are you gripped by existential debate over what it means to be a conservative in 2021?

KM: No, there's no nihilism for me. This is quite personal but for me, my attraction to conservatism began when I was quite young, and it was because I grew up in a home with a lot of poverty, addiction, abuse and government assistance. I felt really let down by authority figures and institutions, and so I have always been and will always be attracted to a values that that emphasises personal responsibility, freedom and choice and tells me that I can do whatever I want to do, regardless of my background and circumstances. I don't disagree with what Dennis or Ken said at all. I think part of the conservative pathway forward is is moving away from this kind of detached elitism on one side and unfettered populism that's unsubstantial and unprincipled on the other and really putting conservative values and ideas into the hands of working people in their families.

MG: Do you think Erin O'Toole will have another chance to move that forward? The caucus meets on Tuesday, the first time since the election. Katy?

KM: I got to say I hope so. I just I don't think that it would be wise to have a conservative leadership race during the pandemic. And I feel the same way about Alberta. My overarching concern there is that some candidates will be forced to veer far to the right on everything, on vaccine passports, to questioning the legitimacy of the virus itself. And I think that could have really detrimental long term consequences for the movement.

MG: I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime thank you all for being here this morning.

KM: Thanks so much.

BOTH: Thank you.

MG: Ken Boessenkool is a professor at the Max Bell School of Public Policy at McGill University. He's based in Calgary. Katy Merrifield is the VP of Wellington Advocacy in Vancouver, and Dennis Matthews is president of Creative Currency. He's in Toronto. This is The Current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway. Earlier this week on the program, I spoke to researcher James Brophy about his book Code White, sounding the alarm on violence against health care workers. Also spoke with a registered nurse named Sonja Bernhard, who told me about the violence that she has experienced on the job, and her story struck a chord with many of you. So here to read a few of your notes to us senior producer Karin Marley. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. A lot of the responses that we got for this were from people who work in health care who really empathised with what we heard from Sonja. The first one is from Krissie Vanderburg in Lindsay, Ontario. She writes: "Sonja's experiences brought tears to my eyes as she could have been repeating verbatim what I and my fellow nurses have been saying for years. COVID has made it worse, but the understaffing, gaslighting from management and the violence we experienced daily has been going on for a long time. I recently made the same decision as Sonja to give up all the perks that come with full time employment and go part time. The pressures of constant verbal and physical abuse and the fear that I will make a mistake in my haste to do way more than is humanly possible was unsustainable".

MG: Gil Thorpe in Ottawa is another RN. She's been on the job for over 40 years, and she writes: "I can't express how much Sonja's words resonated with me. I have worked in many different fields of nursing, and the experience of physical and verbal abuse was present in every job I had. More staff would be helpful. But what really needs to happen is to have nurses in positions of real authority in health care settings".

KARIN MARLEY: Joshua Sangster is a paramedic who works in New Brunswick, and he says he's often sent into volatile situations. He says: "I'm fortunate to be a fairly hefty male, and I'm certain that this has helped me avoid what my female co-workers are faced with constantly. Top the aggression off with laughable mental health support, virtually non-existent long term disability, underpaying and undervaluing of health care workers. It makes you wonder why anyone would do it. We cannot take health care workers for granted anymore because we're on the brink of a serious mess".

MG: Bjorn Vegsund is an ER doctor in Vancouver who says code whites happen at his hospital every single day. He writes: "The public does not seem to understand that health care workers are a finite resource. Just this week, I've learnt that even more of our experienced nurses are leaving our emergency department team. Expect longer wait times, seek out alternate places to obtain medical care unless it's a true emergency. And above all, be kind and restrain yourself if you are tired of waiting. We are all tired of this pandemic, but we can't afford to lose one single additional registered nurse due to a rude encounter".

KARIN MARLEY: This last one is from someone who's worked in an emergency department for 15 years and says they've seen a lot of violence towards staff. They asked not to be identified for fear of reprisal from their employer. They wrote: "in the background. When you show up to work, there's always the stress of thinking, What will you witness today and how will you stay safe and keep others safe if something happens? Despite this, I work with an amazing group of people who make the effort to care for empathise and really listen to their patients. It is those people for whom I come to work".

MG: Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: And thank you, everyone who wrote. This is an incredibly emotional issue and every single one of these stories is important, so we appreciate you sharing them with us. Now after reading those stories. I'm actually going to ask you for more mail. Thanksgiving is just around the corner. Our second time celebrating Thanksgiving during the pandemic and the fourth wave means you may still be wrestling with plans trying to figure out what this holiday is actually going to look like. Maybe it will be done over Zoom again this year. Maybe you're going to see a relative in a care home for the first holiday in a long time. We want to hear about your plans. What are you going to do for Thanksgiving and why has your definition of family or holidays changed since the pandemic? What does Thanksgiving mean to you this year? We have a lot to be thankful for despite everything that we've gone through, or perhaps because of everything we've gone through. Write us TheCurrent@CBC.ca. That's our email address: The Current@ CBC.ca, or send us a tweet @TheCurrentCBC. And that's The Current for this Friday. Hello, October. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q. Jake Gyllenhaal speaking about his new film The Guilty. He'll talk to Tom Power about playing a 9-1-1 operator and what the role taught him about honesty and vulnerability. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend and I'll see you Monday.

Friday October 1, 2021 Full Transcript

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