Confront racism when you see it in hockey, says Karl Subban

Guests: Courtney in Kingston, Karl Subban, Sheldon Kennedy

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SPORTS COMMENTATOR: Tachuck drives in working on [unintelligible] well. Now the puck comes to the front. Here they score. Lindholm got to the net and the Calgary Flames finish off their four game road trip with a 3-2 overtime win.

LL: While the flames were taking care of business on the ice last night against the Buffalo Sabres, their besieged head coach, Bill Peters, was trying to save his job behind the Calgary bench by admitting he used racial slurs and issuing an apology to the hockey club. The allegations come from former NHL player Akim Aliu, who tweeted that Peters made racially derogatory comments in the locker room 10 years ago. Two players have now backed up Aliu's allegations. In another matter, players, including Michal Jordan, say they were physically abused by Peters when he was coach of the Carolina Hurricanes and the current Hurricanes' Coach says it's true. Former NHL players George Laraque has never been one to hold back. So when the allegations came out this week about coach Bill Peters, LAraque was clear.

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That guy should not be coaching NHL. That was 10 years ago. The NHL should not want to have a coach like this in their league. They're working so hard to grow the game to say that hockey is for everyone. Something like this, I think to me is so wrong and the Flame has to fire him.

LL: Peters hasn't been fired. But he wasn't behind the bench for last night's game against Buffalo. The Flames head office says it is conducting a full investigation. In the meantime, many in the hockey community are asking if it's time for a reckoning. I'm joined by three people to discuss this. Karl Subban is the co-author of How We Did It The Subban Plan for Success in Hockey, School and Life. He has two sons in the NHL and one playing in Europe. He's in Toronto. Sheldon Kennedy is a former NHL player who's known for speaking out about the abuse he suffered at the hands of his major junior hockey coach, Graham James. He's in Calgary. And Courtney Szto is an assistant professor of kinesiology and health at Queen's University and assistant editor of the blog Hockey in Society. She is in Kingston, Ontario. Hello to you all.

GUESTS: Good morning, Laura.

LL: Let's start with this apology from Bill Peters that came out last night, two days after this matter came to light. I just want to read a part of it. It says, Please accept this as a sincere apology for offensive language I used in a professional setting a decade ago, although it was an isolated and immediately regrettable incident. I take responsibility for what I said. The statement was made in a moment of frustration and does not reflect my personal values - and it does go on from there. But there's no mention of a Akim Aliu in Coach Peters apology. Sheldon Kennedy, what do you make of it?

SHELDON KENNEDY: Well, hi. I mean, I think that right now there's a lot of lawyers involved and and there's a lot of lawyer language involved. I the way I and the you know, the individual that I listened to yesterday and heard speak to I thought spoke well was Rod Brind'Amour. I mean, I think that Rod, you know, I mean, when he asked white people why players won't speak up. And it's because of fear. And I think, you know, that's really what we're trying to change. We're trying to change a culture. This is not about compliance. This is not about procedures and box checking to make a shift that we need to make. This is about a culture change that needs to happen. And I think that, you know, the NHL is trying to do things to change that culture. I know that minor hockey is doing things and they have been doing things for a long time to change that culture. But, you know, I think that this is this is an area that really needs to be to be addressed and culture change takes time. So, you know, there could be some great work happening, you know, in the grassroots and so forth. But when these issues and these incidences is rare, they're nasty heads. You know, they need to be dealt with correctly and effectively.

LL: Now, just for the sake of our listeners who may not follow hockey as closely, Rod Brind'Amour is the coach of the Carolina Hurricanes, he coached with Coach Peters at the moment of that incident and he confirmed that it happened. He also said he was proud of the way it was handled and people had moved past that. Karl Susan, what do you think of the apology and all this happened?

KARL SUBBAN: Well, it's obvious that it is the right thing to do, but it's not the only thing that that needs to be done, obviously. And Sheldon just outlined some of them. When I first heard I was filled with hurt. It was hurtful. It was hurtful to me and to many others. Plus, as a parent, I was hurt. And also the fear that Sheldon just spoke so well about as an educator. You know, it wasn't teaching and it wasn't coaching. It was hurting. And, you know, and hockey has done a lot for me and it means a lot to me. And this is an opportunity for us to use this situation to hit a homerun, you know, to score runs for the good of the game and for everyone in it.

LL: Now, when I have to ask you, Karl Subban, have your sons ever said anything like this? Has had anything like this ever happened to them?

KARL SUBBAN: Not to this level. Not to this level. But obviously there were incidents. And, you know, what came to mind yesterday was a story. It was a situation involving P.K. in another city around Toronto. And I I didn't hear what was said. And there's a famous player in the NHL is that hurt is that hurt. And, you know, he heard something and he did something.

LL: He heard something said about P.K.

KARL SUBBAN: P.K. He heard something. And to this day, I ask you, every time I see you will not share what was said. But, you know, the important thing is that he did something. And when we hear something, we need to do something or tell someone. And we need to work hard at erasing that fear, because that fear is a powerful, powerful thing.

LL: Courtney Szto, let's go to you. What do you make of all of this?

COURTNEY SZTO: Well, I think that they work very hard to make sure they didn't actually say the word racism in that apology. Really read it once. But I'm pretty sure we've substituted the word offensive for the word racist incident or a racist slur, which is quite Canadian, unfortunately, in its language. And I think we're right about a culture shift. Absolutely. So hockey is very excited to jump onto diversity and inclusion initiatives such as hockey is for everyone. The problem is, is that at that point, we're inviting black indigenous people of colour into a game that is not prepared for them and doesn't quite know what to do with them at this point, unfortunately, because we have not done the hard work to make the space inclusive. So what we end up doing is kind of patching holes where we can. But what we need to be shifting into is anti-racism work to prevent these kinds of incidents from happening.

LL: Well, in that sense, then, Courtney, I want to just broaden this out a little bit more, because this comes just weeks after Don Cherry was fired for comments he made about immigrants. What does that tell us about the culture overall?

COURTNEY SZTO: That the culture overall has not advanced with the demographic that it thinks that it deserves? So I'll give you one example of that in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The calls to action, there are five calls specifically for sport, because of the way that sport was used in colonization and hockey in residential schools were a big part of that narrative. So one of those bullet points is to institute anti-racism education and training across the sporting landscape. Now, that is specifically for a history of colonization. But if Hockey worked to institute that one minor bullet point from that call to action, that would go a long way in creating a safer space for all racialized people in and around the game.

LL: Sheldon Kennedy, did you ever witness incidents of racism, racist abuse in your hockey career?

SHELDON KENNEDY: Well, I think I believe we all have stories. And, you know, and I haven't played since 1998. So, when I played the words that were the racism words that we're talking about, them were absolutely present and in some instances for sure. But I think I know what Malcolm was talking about when he talked about we have to speak up. I mean, I believe our best defence with these issues in society, not just in hockey, but is to be able to empower the bystander and educate the individuals on, you know, what are we actually talking about? What do we mean when we talk about racism? What do we mean when we talk about abuse? What do we mean when we talk about inclusion and diversity? I mean, the reality is, is we can walk up and down the streets and we can ask people, what do we mean when we talk about inclusion, and the odds of getting the right answer aren't very good. But yet, when it comes down to it, we're all expected to do the right thing. So, I think our best defence when it comes to dealing with these issues is knowledge. Focus on, focus on the 98 percent of really good people that are there to do the right things that want to show up to help our kids and to be able to coach and to be present around the rink, to be able to guide our young people. And really present what sport has to offer. And that is about inclusion and all the health benefits that we have. And I think in today's day and age, we know the importance of play and we know the importance of exercise for our young people. And I think that there's a lot of good things going on. But it's just sad that when an incident such as this happens, it brings such that dark cloud back. So, yes, there's been some good things that have happened and they continually happen. I don't believe there's a finish line when it comes to these issues. I think we have to keep learning. We have to keep trudging forward to be better all the time. And I think that when we look at hockey says when they talk about hockey is for everything, and I think it was said earlier on with Courtney in the last conversation was, you know, yes, well, this cannot be just the words and fancy posters and buttons and websites that says hockey is for everyone. We have to be prepared to make sure that we're walking the walk every step of the way when we put out those fancy posters. And I think that's the shift that that's kind of happening right now, is I think there's a willingness. But I think that shift is still happening. And I think that with all the good things happening, we're still going to see some of these incidents has happened or because what we know is this change is going to take time.

LL: Well, Karl Subban, in recent days we've also seen Maple Leafs coach Mike Babcock fired and allegations arising about his controversial coaching tactics. How does something like that fit into this conversation?

KARL SUBBAN: Well, I don't know enough about that situation to give my opinion. But, you know, from the point of view of a parent and I'm a parent and my kids have played hockey and they love it. And so I think that whether they're in the classroom or in the dressing room, we want our children to be safe, not only physically, not only about their physical safety, but also their mental, that they're mentally safe. And so, you know, words matter. What we say to people matter. And so we need to choose our words wisely and back into school here. Working as a principal, just filling in. And I know what I say matters as a leader in this school. So what a coach you say to his or her players matter and words carry power and sometimes they can knock you down or they lift you up. And I know we want to get the best out of our athletes, but you know what? We shouldn't go to the level of race. And one of the things that I like to pass on to young people and I tell them, my skin colour might make me a minority, but my potential makes me a majority. And we need to focus on children abilities and not the colour of their skin or their sexual orientation.

LL: I just want to play some tape for you. Last year, former NHL player, Daniel Carcillo, came forward describing abuse at the Ontario Hockey League level, OHL. He said he didn't speak up at the time. Listen to some of what he told the CBC.

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I love the game of hockey, the game of hockey. I don't like hockey culture. I think it's toxic. I think it's- I think this stuff is accepted. People know about it. You can't go to your parents with this because if you want to get to the NHL, you know, you're not going to let a bully or an abuser stop you. I wasn't. And if I went to my parents, I know what my parents would do. They'd come and get me? You know, I'm going to be over.

LL: Courtney Szto, he describes hockey culture as toxic. Others have to. Is it?

COURTNEY SZTO: I think that where he distinguishes the game of hockey from hockey culture, I think that's a very important distinction to make. The game is, in my opinion, the best game that there is out there. But there are certainly very harmful aspects of that culture that we have not dealt with for a very long time. So what we end up with is a system when people make it to the highest levels of the game, it is in spite of some of the abuse that we've kind of laid down for them to accept. So that changes the conversation from one about who is the most talented player, that makes it through, which is what we like to believe, to who is the most talented player and willing to suffer the most abuse, which is a very different ball game. And certainly I assume not what parents are signing their kids up for when they take them to joint hockey. It's like what kind of character are we actually trying to teach our youth?

LL: But Sheldon Kennedy, what do you think of what Daniel Carcillo said?

SHELDON KENNEDY: Well, I mean, I remember when I told my story 22 years ago and the fear that I had, but I remember the response. I mean when I first told my story there was even people in the media that didn't want to believe Sheldon Kennedy. So, that was in that that was in the newspapers. How could this troubled kid, this kid that's been in mental health hospitals and addiction centres and stuff, he must got to be lying or whatever. And I remember the initial conversation was this is an isolated issue and it's a hockey issue. And we know that neither one of those are true. This is not an isolated issue. It's not just a hockey issue. Hockey makes the front pages of the papers. But I think that what Daniel's talking about is the fear of not knowing where to go when we are feeling unsafe and that fear of if I tell anybody, you know, nothing's going to happen. Because I think in my case, people tried before to bring issues forward. Players tried before to bring issues forward, not only around Graham James, but around other issues. And those were squashed. And that message was sent down that, you know, you do not come forward with any of these types of issues. Now, I look at that situation, my situation, back in 1998 and I look at, you know, the training that has been happening and some of the steps that Hockey Canada and others have taken across the country, it's mandatory training for every coach across this country, abuse, bullying, harassment, discrimination and neglect training across this country. And in a lot of places, mandatory training for parents as well. And that's come a long ways. That's come and from this being an isolated case and this only happens with this one person and so forth to mandatory training across the board. I think that's those are some positive steps forward. Now, can we build on that? Absolutely. But I also think that we see and we're seeing individuals like Dan come forward. We're seeing other individuals like Patrick O'Sullivan come forward and many others that are finding their voice. And I feel that they're finding a voice because they're feeling more confident that they're going to be supported when they come forward with these allegations. That doesn't mean that there's not fear when anybody comes forward, whether you're within hockey or outside of hockey. And I think what we need to be able to do is to to keep building a confidence around these issues, racism, abuse, inclusion that carry a lot of fear and a lot of uncertainty with a lot of people. And I think that's got to be where we get to create that confidence so we can have conversations about these issues. And when we do see something that arises, whether it's in the rink or on the streets or in our communities, we know what to do and we know how to approach that and try to nip those in the bud before they become a major problem.

LL: Karl Subban, some people have likened this to the Me Too movement. I'm wondering if you see any parallels with that.

KARL SUBBAN: Yes. You know, I guess social media is changing the game. People are able to Sheldon just said, you know, discover their voice and use their voice to tell their story. And I really think it's a good thing. And the one thing I want to add to what Sheldon just said and I never played in the NHL, but people always ask me what is the one thing that helped P.K. and Malcolm and Jordan to be where they are today? And it wasn't their ability just to skate or pass the puck or the love of the game. It's also their abilities to deal with the adversities and some of them I wish that that they did not happen. And so there's certain things that must be cleaned up. I know all three of my boys played in Bellville, Ontario, under George Burnett and Jake Grimes. And I mentioned their names because you know what? They prepared my boys for many of the things that they would face down the road. And that's also part of coaching. You know, prepare them. Prepare them for life. Prepare them for things that they might face and help them to deal with it. And that's what coaching is. But the Me Too movement is empowering our society. And hockey is part of society. And it's working in it, too. And we don't want people to suffer in silence. We know what happens. It's not good. So, using social media for people to tell their story, for them to let it out and hopefully, we're going to see major changes. You know what? I want to see, I hit a home run and where everyone wins out of this situation.

LL: I think all three of you, obviously so much more to talk about. But thanks for talking to us today.

COURTNEY SZTO: Thank you very much.

SHELDON KENNEDY: Thank you.

KARL SUBBAN: Thank you.

LL: Sheldon Kennedy is a former NHL player and the founder of the Respect Group, which provides education and training to prevent abuse and bullying in sport. He's in Calgary. Karl Subban is the co-author of How We Did It The Sudan Plan for Success in Hockey, School and Life. He has two sons in the NHL and one playing in Europe. He's in Toronto. And Courtney Szto is an assistant professor of kinesiology and health at Queen's University and assistant editor of the blog Hockey and Society. She's in Kingston, Ontario. We did request comment from the NHL, but so far we haven't heard back. The CBC News is next. And then later on, we'll talk about kids in foster care in B.C. struggling with feeling like they belong when they reach 19. They really don't belong anymore. Many end up homeless and alone. We'll talk about that in half an hour. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to The Current.

Nir Eyal on how to overcome digital distractions and find your focus

Guest: Nir Eyal

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

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LL: Still to come. For almost 40 years, roast turkey experts have been busy answering the burning or basting questions about cooking holiday meals. We'll make a call to the Butterball Turkey hotline in just under an hour. But first, the modern moral panic.

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LL: When was the last time you read an entire chapter of a book without, [sound: Ding], a digital destruction or watched a whole TV show without, [sound: beep], your attention wandering or even had a deep conversation with a friend without [sound: tone], moving your eyes down to your phone. And have you started to find that those little distractions happen more and more without any outside ring or a ding at all, but from some sort of trigger inside your own head? For more and more of us going on distracted is actually becoming a mere memory. It's something that behavioural scientist, author and entrepreneur Nir Eyal wants to help us get back. His new book is called Indestractable. And he's with us from New York. Hello.

NIL EYAL: Hi. Great to be here. I don't know if you have any listeners left after all those pings.

LL: I hope not. But broke with the last time you managed to read a whole chapter without picking up your phone?

NIL EYAL: Well, let me tell you, it took me about five years to regain that skill. That's how long it took me to write my last book, Indestractable, which was just published. And the reason it took me so long to publish the book is because I kept getting distracted. So it wasn't until I mastered these techniques, about two or two years ago or so, that I actually put this into practice and verified for myself that we actually can regain control of our attention and our lives by becoming indestractable.

NIL EYAL: And we will talk about those techniques. But person, when I ask you about a few other things that I've done, for example, an Amnesty International report the other day actually accused tech giants of violating our human rights. The main concerns were about surveillance. But the report also talks about - this is a quote - "Attentional capture and exploitation, distracting us to the point that it limits our ability to think clearly and pursue our own goals". I'm wondering what you think of that.

NIL EYAL: Well, I wonder who we're talking about exactly. Are we talking about Fox News and CNN or are we talking about the social media companies? Because I think you can apply the exact same logic to all forms of media. There's something we call a news junkie, which is somebody who consumes way too much news, even for their own good. And look, the fact is any form of media consumed in excess is going to have some harmful consequences. That doesn't mean that the media itself is evil. It means that we need to consume these things in moderation in a way that serves us as opposed to us serving them.

LL: But you do admit distraction is a big issue.

NIL EYAL: Absolutely. And in fact, Plato said it was a big issue 2500 years ago, he called it Akrasia, the tendency that we all have to do things against our better interests. And so absolutely, it's part of the human condition. People have been trying to distract us and eat up our time and attention for their own purposes since time immemorial.

LL: Plato didn't have a smartphone. What was distracting him?

NIL EYAL: Yeah, exactly. Good question. What was he complaining about exactly? And the fact of the matter is, look, if Facebook turned off tomorrow, if Zuckerberg said, you know what, I've got enough money, I'm sick of this, let's just shut it all down. Do we really think people are going to start reading Shakespeare and Chaucer in their spare time? Of course not. We'll go back to all the things that used to distract us. The gossip, the spectator sports, the news, all kinds of things can distract us if we are looking for distraction.

LL: Well, who is to blame then?

NIL EYAL: Well, I think the idea is not to be a blame or is not to blame the tech companies or to blame the people that are doing it to us. The idea is not to be ashamed. That's the other big bucket of people, people who think, oh, there's something wrong with me, I'm dysfunctional, I'm lazy. I have a short attention span. That's not harmful, that's not healthy. The idea is to not be a blamer or to not be a shamer, but to be a climber. A climber acknowledges that this isn't your fault. You didn't invent the iPhone, you didn't invent email. You didn't invent Facebook. It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility because these tools are not going away. And frankly, these tools are great. We can use them to benefit us in all sorts of ways. As long as we use them appropriately.

LL: Now, you did claim it to thoroughly or here in the in our in our conversation. You worked in the tech space for many years and you say that there have been times when you were not perfectly focussed.

NIL EYAL: Absolutely. I mean, that's why I wrote this book. I was patient zero here. I was very distracted. And particularly when the busier I got, the better my business did and the better, you know, the more people needed me and more emails. I got more phone calls I received, the more distractable I was. And so that's why I wrote this book was because I wanted to figure this out for myself before I could tell anyone else how to do it. But I wanted to take the secrets that I had uncovered, working as an industry insider to expose the Achilles heel of distraction. And the fact of the matter is that every habit forming product, every distraction, distracts us for the same reason. And that is because we are desperate to feel something different. That the role of every product that distracts you is to help you feel something else. So most distraction, what I learned in my five years of research, it's not the pings and dings. It's not the external triggers per say that cause most distraction, but in fact, most distraction starts from within us. It's called an internal trigger. So when we're feeling lonely, we check Facebook. When we're uncertain. We Google when we're bored, we check the news. We look at stock prices, sports scores, Pinterest, Reddit, we use these tools to help us feel something different. And if we don't acknowledge that fact, that the root cause of distraction- It's not whatever gadgets in our hands. Come on. It's too convenient of an excuse. The real root cause of distraction is our inability to cope with these uncomfortable emotional states.

LL: You talk in the book about a tipping point moment for you that got you onto the subject when you were playing with your daughter. Tell me what happened.

NIL EYAL: Yeah, absolutely. So really, the moment when I knew I had a problem was when I was with my daughter one afternoon and we had a this beautiful afternoon planned to just, you know, have quality time together. And we had this activity book that daddies and daughters could play together.

LL: And one of the activities in the book was to ask each other this question: if you could have any superpower, what superpower would you want? And I remember the question verbatim, but I can't tell you what my daughter said, because in that moment I was distracted. I was looking at my phone. I told my daughter. Hold on just one sec. I just got to do this one thing. And then a few minutes later, she got the hint that whatever's on my phone was more important than she was. And she left the room to play with some toy outside. And when I looked up, she was gone. In fact, I told this story to a friend of mine and he asked his - we have daughters of similar age. And he actually asked his daughter what power she would want. And she said she would want the power to talk to animals. And he said, oh, that's interesting, honey, why do you want the power to talk to animals? And she said so that when you and mommy are on your phones, I'll have someone to talk to.

LL: Oh my God. That's pretty crushing.

NIL EYAL: That's pretty crushing. Right. And, to be honest, if I told you it only happened with my daughter, I'd be lying. It would happen when I'd sit down at my desk and I'd try to get some work done and I'd, you know, get distracted by checking emails or Googling something real quick or any number of distractions. And so not only did it affect my personal life, it also affected my professional life.

LL: Okay, before we go forward with ways to be indestructible, let's go back a little bit. What's particularly interesting about you is that you've spent years advising companies about how to get us hooked on apps. And you wrote a book about how to do that called Hooked, right?

NIL EYAL: Right. Exactly. That's my insider perspective. And, you know, the idea here with Hooked is that I wanted to reveal the secrets behind how companies like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and WhatsApp and Slack, how they are designed to be so engaging, not for their benefit. That's where I stole these secrets from. The reason I wrote Hooked was so that all sorts of businesses can make their products more engaging. So [unintelligible] uses the Hooked model to get kids hooked on to in classroom learning. Fit Body uses the Hooked model to help people get hooked to exercising in the gym every day. One of my clients, the New York Times, uses the Hooked model to get people to read the news and so we can use these hooks for good. I didn't write the book for the social media companies. I've never worked for them.

LL: And that's what the companies were doing. The head of Microsoft has recommended it to his employees. You said you've seen the book at Facebook and Google. So even if your goal was more altruistic, the ideas are being used by tech to make us feel we've got this tech addiction. Are you surprised by that?

NIL EYAL: Well, I take issue with the word addiction. I think that for the vast majority people who use these products, they're great. Right? We only think of the bad cases and the overused. But, you know, a lot of people benefit, myself included. I love Facebook. I love Instagram. I love you tube. They're wonderful. I do want to go back to a world without these tools. And so the idea here is that we can use them in a healthy way. Now, do some people get addicted? Of course they do. But look, you know, all sorts of products and services addict people, but don't addict everyone. We many of us have a beer once in a while. We're not all alcoholics. Not everyone who has sex is a sex addict. Not everyone who plays poker once in a while is a problem gambler. Why does technology have this special class? I'll tell you why. Because we are in the grips of a moral panic that because it's a new technology, we freak out just like we freaked out about the radio and about the novel and about comic books and about rap music. This is the current moral panic of the day. But what you'll see is that while some people do get addicted. The vast majority of people are not addicted. And some of us, unfortunately, are proposing and promoting this view that technology is hijacking your brain, that it's addicting you, that there's nothing you can do about it. And that itself is harmful because it leads to learned helplessness. When people believe technology is hijacking their brain, it's addicting everyone. They don't do anything about the problem. And so that's a big reason why I wrote this book, is that I wanted to dispel that myth in order to empower people to turn off these products and services. Right. To shut off the television, to stop watching so many sports on TV. Just use Facebook and YouTube less, if it's not serving them.

LL: I'd like you here to help us understand the key to the idea in Hooked so we can take it to the next stage, the Hooked model. So I want to walk through it with you imagining that we're on Facebook and then this happens.

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NIL EYAL: If you get one of these pings or ding, that's what's called an external trigger and that external trigger prompts you to action. The second step of the Hooked model is to make do some kind of action. Open the app. Scroll a feed. Push a play button. Whatever the case might be. Then the third step is the variable reward. Where you have some kind of uncertainty around what you might find. So when it's opening up the Facebook app, it's scrolling that feed on Instagram or Facebook or if it's turning on the television. Why do we watch the news? Why do we tune into the radio? It's all about uncertainty. We want to know what we don't know. It's all about that variable reward is that third step. And then the fourth step is the investment phase where we put something into the product to improve it with use. So that could be data content, followers, reputation. Anything that makes the product better and better with use so that through successive cycles, by using the product over and over again, the product actually improves and is catered just to us and our interests.

LL: And we get invested.

NIL EYAL: That's right.

LL: Okay. So that model that we see everywhere, the recipe for keeping us hooked so our devices and keeping us distracted from doing our work.

NIL EYAL: No distraction is not the same thing as engagement. So the definition of distraction is something that takes you off track. So the opposite of distraction is not focus. The opposite of distraction is traction. Traction and distraction both come from the same Latin root trahere, which means to pull. And so traction is any action you plan to do with intent. The opposite of traction is distraction. So if you want to check Facebook, if that is something you plan to do with your time, it is not a distraction. It is traction. And there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing morally inferior to checking Facebook versus watching the television or listening to the radio. If that's what you want to do with your time, enjoy it. However, if you plan to do one thing like when I was with my daughter and I plan to be with her and now I'm checking my phone. Well, that's now a distraction.

LL: Okay. You set it up really well. Break down this theory from the book. But how do we become indestructible?

NIL EYAL: Sure. So the first step is to master these internal triggers that we have to realize that everything that is a distraction is prompted by this desire to escape discomfort. So we need tools. We don't have, for many of us, we don't have the proper arrows in our quiver to use when we feel down. When we feel these uncomfortable emotional states. And there's nothing bad about feeling bad, by the way, it is part of our evolutionary heritage. Feeling bored, feeling perturbed, feeling anxious, fearful. This is what helped our species survive so we can harness that power. We shouldn't beat ourselves up. We shouldn't shame ourselves. We shouldn't blame these outside factors. We should take responsibility for them and find better ways to deal with this comfort in helpful ways as opposed to harmful ways. So that's all about mastering the internal triggers. And I draw upon 50 years of psychology to explain exactly how to do that.

LL: And we did. So we don't need to throw away our smartphones.

NIL EYAL: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I think that's a very elitist solution. A lot of tech critics that don't have a social media account, well, they say, well, everybody just throw away their devices. You'll get fired if you stop using email. Right. People's livelihoods depend on these technologies. Why should we stop using them? They're wonderful. Now, I think it's important to realize that when it comes to social networks in particular, they are not a replacement for real world interaction. They should be a supplement. We still need real world interaction. But as long as it's a supplement and not a replacement, they're perfectly fine. They're great to use if we know that we use them on our schedule and according to our values. Not according to the app makers.

LL: And as you mentioned, you have techniques in the book to help us stay on focus. What is one that people find most immediately useful?

NIL EYAL: Planning your day. So here's the thing. I interviewed hundreds of people. Many of them are masters of mastering distraction, and many of them were terrible at mastering distraction and a common trait among everyone who was good at putting distraction at its place and didn't get distracted throughout their day is that they made a schedule. Turns out two thirds of Americans do not keep any sort of calendar. I'm imagining something similar in Canada as well. And so this is this is really a folly here, because if you think about it, how can you call something a distraction if you don't know what it distracted you from? If you have big whitespace in your day, you're not going to write that novel. You're not going to go exercise. You're not going to do these, you know, highfalutin things that you plan to do. You're going to get distracted. The news will distract you. Your phone will distract you, your kids, your spouse, your boss. Something is going to plan your day if you don't decide what you want to do with it.

LL: But I make lists.

NIL EYAL: Well, lists aren't the same as schedules. I used to do that, too. I used to have a to do list of over 100 things that I'd want to do every day. And I'd have a wonderfully productive day and I do five of them. And then I'd still look at my to do list and say, Oh my goodness, I still have 95 more things to do. And that feels horrible. Difference is, when you plan your day, the list of to dos is your output. But you have to of course plan the input. The input is your time. So the gift I want to give everyone listening is this amazing feeling when you get to the end of your day and you have done exactly what you plan to do on your calendar. And then at the end of the day, you can enjoy yourself. You can watch television. You can watch a football game. You can read the news. You can go on Twitter or Facebook or YouTube without guilt, without feeling like you constantly need to be doing something else. But that only comes from planning your time, not the task.

LL: So tell me what it looks like. Planning? What is your schedule? How do you have to do this? It's not a list. What does it look like?

NIL EYAL: To make a list where we start is with our values. So values are the attributes of the person we want to become. And so we start by taking a template of the week ahead. And so we can do this with any calendaring tool. You can even do this with pen and paper. So you look at the week ahead and you start with your values, starting with what I call the 'you' domain. The 'you' domain says we have to take care of ourselves before we can take care of others. So look at that calendar the week ahead and ask yourself where is the time for proper rest? Whereas the time for prayer, meditation, whatever you need to take care of yourself is that time in your calendar. And I'm not telling you what your values should be. I want to help you live out whatever your values are. So the idea here is to turn your values into time. Do you have time for physical fitness if that's one of your values? Do you have time for proper rest, meditation, whatever it might be that's important to you? Put that time in your schedule first, then the next domain is the relationship domain. You know how many of us we see our friends and say, oh, yeah, we should get lunch sometime. We should have coffee. Come on. It doesn't happen. Part of the reason that we are suffering through this loneliness epidemic is that our social institutions, the colonist club, the bowling league, the church group, people don't go to these things as much as they used to, which means they don't hold a place on our calendar. So if your friends are important to you, put a regular time on your calendar for them, whether it's going out for beers on a Friday or bowling or whatever it is. Put that time on your calendar for them as well as for your spouse, for your kids. Plan that time in advance. And then finally, the work domain. So of course, we have to have a set period of time when we plan to check e-mail. Don't just check e-mail all day long when you feel stressed or anxious because you're letting those internal triggers get the best of you. Plan time in your day to go through those e-mails. And as long as you plan that time, it's great you've turned it into traction rather than distraction. And then finally, make sure you plan. Time for focus. Many people today, we are constantly reacting to messages, reacting to e-mails, reacting to get him to meetings when we don't have any time for reflection. So that time is where we are our most creative, where we do our best work. You have got to guard that time on your schedule as well. And then once you have that time box schedule, when you filled in your day, now you have a template, doesn't mean you need to religiously follow it. And if you fall off track, you're a bad person. No. You iterate on this schedule from week to week to improve it and make it easier to follow.

LL: I can see how people would be more productive in their work, but we're off in our lives. Do you see distraction as a big problem?

NIL EYAL: Oh, I think when it comes to social interactions, I think we see this quite a bit. I mean, how many times have you been to lunch or dinner with some friends and someone around the table insists on using their device and now they're physically present, but they're mentally somewhere else. I mean, how annoying is that.

LL: And rude.

NIL EYAL: Well, here's the thing. You know, I'm so glad you said that, because we are learning as a society that that is rude, but not everybody has gotten the message. And so I think what's happening is, you know, something that we've experienced before. I remember as a kid, in the early 1980s, you would walk into people's homes and they would just take the liberty to light up a cigarette in your living room. People, when they visited, they would just light a cigarette. Remember, we had these these ashtrays all over our house, even though my parents didn't smoke, because people expected the privilege of smoking in your living room. Can you imagine if someone came to your home and just lit up a cigarette without asking? That would be very rude.

LL: Not anymore.

NIL EYAL: Well, what changed, right is almost unimaginable today. Well, what changed? Was it legislation? No, there's no law that says you can't smoke in someone's private residence. What changed is the norms, the manners. And so I remember when my mother told people, I'm sorry, we don't smoke. You have to smoke outside. You can't smoke in our house. She lost friends over that. That was a really controversial thing to do back in the 1980s. Well, today, of course, that's common. It'd be rude to think you could smoke in someone's house. And that's exactly the same thing that is happening today when it comes to spreading what we call social antibodies around the proper use of technology in social circumstances. So here's a quick tool that I can give you a quick tip. When you see someone checking their device in a social circumstance, when they're around the table and you're trying to have dinner with them. You can't say, hey, get off your phone. Right. You're going to lose a friend that way.

LL: I might do that.

NIL EYAL: Go for it. But, you know, we also don't know what's on the other side of the screen. Right. Maybe it's an emergency. Maybe someone's child is sick. We don't know what they might be. Responding to. So here's what we do. Here's how we keep our sanity and our friends. We ask them sincerely. We look at them and we say, I see you're on your phone. Is everything okay? And by asking them that question sincerely, you know, not knowing what might be on the other side of that screen, they'll either do one of two things. Either they'll say, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry I have this emergency. I need to go take care of it or they'll get the hint and say, oh, sorry, and they'll put away the phone. So the idea is to snap them into this moment of realizing what they're doing in order to spread these social antibodies. And that's really why I wrote this book, is that I think we really can do this. We can adopt these new behaviours that help us spread these social antibodies to ferret out these anti-social behaviour.

LL: What are the consequences, then to our lives beyond the obvious if we don't learn to become indestructible?

NIL EYAL: Well, I think that the world is bifurcating into two types of people. There are other people who allow their time and attention in their life, frankly, to be controlled and manipulated by other forces, whether it's forces in the media, whether it's their bosses, their kids, their spouse, other people telling them what to do with their time and attention versus people who say, no, I choose what I do with my time and my attention in my life, because I have decided in advance what I want to do with my time.

LL: And I just want to go back to your assertion that it's not big technology companies that are hijacking our minds, that it's our responsibility to train our attention, because that may have been true a decade ago before smartphones were ubiquitous. But how do something qualitatively changed?

NIL EYAL: Well, certainly technology is more pervasive and more persuasive than ever. But that doesn't mean we can't overcome it. I mean, let me give you a very simple example. Two thirds of people with a smartphone never change their notification settings. What? Seriously? Can we say that technology is so addictive, it's so hijacking our brain when we haven't turned off those stupid notification settings we keep getting? Why do we need every news alert? Why do we need Facebook to constantly ping and ding us? And guess what? If you turn off those notification settings Zuckerberg can't turn them back on. Google can't turn them back on. It takes seconds to do. And yet so few people actually do it. So the question in my mind, having published this book, telling you exactly how to regain your attention, your life, the question in my mind right now is do people want to just keep complaining about this problem or do they actually want to do something about it?

LL: I turned off my notifications. I'm a good person that way.

NIL EYAL: I'm not saying to turn off every notification. Quite the opposite. The question to ask yourself is, is this external trigger serving me or am I serving it? So if the external trigger, if the ping or ding is helping, remind you, hey, it's time to meditate, it's time for that workout, it's time for that meeting, whatever it might be. If it's helping you, if it's serving you, wonderful. Keep it on. But all those external triggers, the pings and dings that aren't serving, you turn them off, for God's sakes.

LL: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm with you. All right. You've sold me. Thank you very much for the conversation. That's been really interesting. And I haven't looked at my phone once.

NIL EYAL: Awesome. Enjoy being indistractable. That's great.

LL: Nil Eyal's new book is called Indestractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. He was in New York City. And if you want another practical tip from Nil about becoming indestructible, we'll share what he has to say about e-mail on our Twitter feed @TheCurrentCBC. Well, coming up in our next half hour: It's pretty rare for a 19 year old who's ready to be suddenly and completely cut off from all family support. But that's what happens to many kids in foster care and many end up homeless. I'll talk to three people involved in a new documentary that looks at the lives of these young people. I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

Documentary 19 and homeless

Guests: Mercedes Fortney, Maureen Palmer, Barbara Lawson-Swain

LL: I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sobbing] I was just reading an e-mail about a meeting for allowing for [unintelligible] age out of foster care. And I'm not ready. My birthday is in just over months and I don't want to turn 19. I feel like I'm going to be so alone.

LL: For most teenagers, turning 19 is something to be celebrated. The doorway to adulthood. But for kids like Amber, it's a birthday filled with dread. At 19 kids living in foster care in B.C. age out of the system, meaning they're on their own. Many end up living on the streets. A new documentary follows the lives of eight young people in British Columbia as they age out. Maureen Palmer is the director of 19 and Homeless. Mercedes Fortney went through the foster care system and is now helping other young people through the Lu'ma Native Housing Society. And Barb Lawson-Swain is the program director there. They're all in our Vancouver studio. Hello, everyone.

MAUREEN PALMER: Hello.

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Hello.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Hello.

LL: Maureen, let's start with you. Why did you want to make a documentary about young people aging out of the system?

MAUREEN PALMER: A couple of reasons. Number one, my sister adopted a young child from foster care and she started telling me some of the challenges within the system. And then I actually saw a petition and signed it for something called Fosteringchange.ca, which was something run by the Vancouver Foundation a few years ago that shed light on the problems of foster kids and put a price on it. Between 222 and 260 million dollars every year for the thousand kids that age out of care in B.C. to do it badly. So I thought, oh, if I could just get in there and see what badly means, I could maybe make a difference.

LL: And you put a face on it in meantime. And Mercedes, you're one of the people who Maureen talked to. Tell me how long you were in the foster care system yourself.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: I was in the foster care system from the age of two, 17 years.

LL: Did you have a good experience with your foster parents?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Overall, yes. The last family I ended up with is still my family now.

LL: Well, that's good. What was it like for you then when you aged out?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: I aged out at Lu'ma in an independent living suite. It was easier because I had the support of Barb and my family around me. But it's not like that for everyone.

LL: Right. And Barb will get to you in just a moment. But I just want to come back to Maureen for a second. Maureen, how did you gain the trust of young people like Mercedes in the film? Because these young people are quite vulnerable.

MAUREEN PALMER: I think it was time. And Barb might say, kind of like I'm a mom, I'm a woman of a certain age. And, you know, I brought goodies and I think it was just being there day in, day out. You know, until they got sick of me, Mercedes won't say.

LL: Mercedes, where you hesitant at all to tell your story in the documentary?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Yes. When Maureen came in and talked about it, if you know Barb, she has a look. And when Maureen asked for volunteers, Barb gave me the look and I put up my hand.

LL: Okay, Barb, you loom large in this documentary. You are such a mother figure to so many. Why do you think it's so important to hear stories like Mercedes?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Because it's important to hear right from the people that are impacted in our communities. We could tell a story about what we've experienced in serving, but this story continues on a daily basis for the ones living it.

LL: And what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about foster care?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: That it's any kind of stability, that there's an ability to build any kind of strong relationship, that it's a good substitute for your actual family.

LL: Because it's not?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Not at all.

LL: What is it, then?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: I'd say that it's another system. Simple, similar to our residential school experience.

LL: In what sense?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: I'd say it's largely because of the separation, sense of abandonment, loss of your child, the outcomes on both sides for the families experience and for the children's experience. So the parents and the children suffer when removed from a home or family.

LL: So Maureen, this is about foster homes and foster families and being raised in one of those families. But it's also about, as you say, aging out. What kinds of issues arise for young people in B.C. as they age out of care?

MAUREEN PALMER: The challenges in B.C. are not unique to B.C. I think they are to a greater or lesser degree right across the country. But if you look at things, for instance, an astounding statistics, youth who age out of care are almost 200 times more likely to be homeless. In one survey here in Vancouver, almost 50 percent of those who use street drugs were formerly in care. 32 percent of those in care graduate high school. I call them the misery statistics. They go on and on. And, cumulatively, if you look at these statistics, they represent largely people coming out of care and we have systemically, rather than supported indigenous families, they're the major group in this film because they aren't the most kids in care, but also kids who come from the LGBTQ community. They too are disproportionately part of these statistics. We have to fix and we have to support families that are struggling rather than tear them apart.

LL: There are programs that help and one of the most important is Lu/ma House, which Barb, you, run. Tell us about Luma House. What is it? And who lives there?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: 2015 is when it started to take off a little bit and has been going really strong since, luckily with lots of youth that you're not looking for referrals for anymore, it's youth that are bringing their siblings into the group because they recognize the assistance they're getting.

LL: So what assistance do you provide?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Pretty much anything that you would do for your own child, we're trying to do for our participants.

LL: What kind of trauma these young people dealing with?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Anything. Everything, you name it. One of my kids have experienced it. So there's trauma from being separated. There's trauma from living in poverty. There's trauma from, you know, different abuses that occur in foster systems or foster homes or group homes. There's trauma from being separated from your siblings. The list, as Maureen said, just keeps going on.

MAUREEN PALMER: Can I just add one that I think people don't normally think of, and I think that Mercedes illustrates so well in the film. She had to leave a foster home at the age of about six or seven. I can't remember exactly. But she remembered through the help of Google Earth where that home was. And we drove there and knocked on the door and she met with the family that gave her up. And they had all kinds of pictures of her from like age 2 to age 6.

LL: It's funny you should mention that, Maureen, because we're just about to play some tape from a very visit.

SOUNDCLIP

MERCEDES FORTNEY: We are going to my first foster home where I live from the age of two and a half to eight. I had literally nightmares for three nights about this. So, you know, like I don't remember any of it, anything before the age of 14.

MAUREEN PALMER: Oh my goodness. Do you remember this house?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: I do. That's the house. But I don't want to do it. I'm kind of regretting it. I'm all nervous now that we're here. We'll see how it goes.

[Sound: Knocking]

VOICE: Hey.

LL: Okay, Mercedes, you actually do go in. What was it like for you to see the family again?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: It was interesting. It's an interesting situation to be in because I don't, you know, I don't really know them at that point. And I've obviously changed as a person. I honestly didn't remember a majority of the memories of all the pictures they had there and they remembered them so well. And I think a part of me might have just blocked out a lot of it.

LL: Yes, because you had all these photographs of yourself and your sister.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Yes. I couldn't really place them, to be honest. I couldn't place where they were, what I was doing. I feel like because it was so hard to leave that home and moved to a completely different city, that a part of me must've just blocked out the memories.

LL: Right. Because you didn't want to go, Maureen. You wanted to make a point about this.

MAUREEN PALMER: I did. I think one of the saddest moments, most poignant and frankly, most traumatic things about growing up in care is you don't own your own stories. Mercedes started to piece together things as we drove back into the city. And it's a rare thing. A lot of the other kids that I film with might have had a picture or two. So lives are fragmented. And I think Barb ought pick up on that. Right. What's the important spark of owning your own story?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: The privilege of having a home with your parents and pictures and stability, even if it's unstable, like there's many people that are still together that have grown up in poverty. But at least have that security of the togetherness and memories together and no trauma to start blocking things from a very young age. I've had kids that have come to me and by the time they were, you know, 17 years old, they'd had 14 homes.

LL: 14 homes. But for Mercedes, you did go on to join another family and you stayed with them for years. And I'm wondering what your relationship is like with that family now.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: They are just my family. It's as simple as that. They have accepted me into their family and I'm invited to all the holidays and I spend time with them.

LL: Is mom mom to you?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: You know, I call her by her name. But, you know, sometimes it's like, hello, Mother. It depends on my mood.

LL: Oh, okay. But what does that relationship mean to you? The one with her?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: I call her when, you know, when you would call your mom, when you're having problems with your boyfriend, when you can't figure out how long to cook something. I'll call her when I need the simplest things, because she is my mom in, you know, in any way that accounts.

LL: That means a lot. Mercedes, that there's a one point in the film very sad and tragic when your younger brother dies and commits suicide. And Barb is there as well. And I'm wondering for both of you, how much did you lean on each other when that happened?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Barb is one of the people who came and told me and she dropped everything she was doing. And she helped me plan the funeral. She helped me pick out everything that I needed. She answered the calls in the middle of the night. She was my rock in that in that situation. And it's still something that I struggle with.

LL: I'm sure it is. And I'm so sorry that you lost him. Barb Darias was it was in foster care as well?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Yes.

LL: And what was that like for you?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Oh, that was an incredible loss. I was waiting for Darias to come into my program. He was going to be just the third sibling to come and be a part of us. I was more than ready to welcome him in when he was 14 and wanting to be a part of it. And by the time he turned 16, he was kind of wandering on his own and doing his own gig. And I thought, oh, I'll just wait it out because he'll come around. If I could go back in time, there's many things I would do differently, but one of the most important pieces for me is to allow whoever is coming my way to come on their own time and their own rule. So I give time and space to everybody, and I regret that a little bit. However, I treasure the moments I did have with him.

LL: Why do you regret that?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Because there's so many points where we could have made a difference with various if we ignored what was being told to us. So for me, it's an age limit on my group. And I tried to include various many times when we had family things going on. He met my mom. He was, you know, ready to be part of our bigger family. Mercedes fought for him a few times. And when she was told that, no, she can't, even though she was an adult, take him in and be his guardian, I kind of let it happen because it was. Important for me, for Mercedes to be a young person as well. And I didn't know if that responsibility was going to be too great or too hard. I didn't step in because I didn't feel like I had the knowledge or the ability to override a decision that was responsibility over Darias's life. And that's tough. That's tough for all of us to live with.

LL: Mercedes, where does having someone like Barb in your life mean for you now?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Big question.

LL: Take your time.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Barb is one of the most important people I have in my life. She is a friend. She's a mom. She's my boss. I feel bad for the people who don't have someone like Barb in their life because I couldn't imagine now living this life without her. And, you know, she's stuck with me now.

LL: Barb, so many of these young people refer to you as their rock. Do you understand why they say that?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: I do. Honestly, I just believe that building a relationship and allowing people to have relationships and treat them as relationships, not service providing is so important. I have a child. I have one child that is my biological child. But I have so many that I will do the exact same for, given the opportunity.

MAUREEN PALMER: Can I just add one statistic, Laura?

LL: Sure.

MAUREEN PALMER: A youth in care attempts suicide every three days in British Columbia, and we actually don't know how many who age out of care attempt or complete because no one tracks outcomes for these kids after the age of 19.

LL: I want to play another excerpt from the documentary now. This is Amber again. We heard her at the beginning. Let's listen to her again.

SOUNDCLIP

AMBER: My dad has brain damage. And my mom is a drug addict. I was seven. At the time I didn't know that my mom was using drugs. She hadn't come home for around 24 hours. So my dad made a missing person report. And then when the police came and saw that he was the only person there, which because of his brain damage, he's not allowed to be the only adult. Then we got taken away. And it was really confusing because I was the youngest and nobody told me anything. So I had no idea why we were being taken away. I think that instead of taking kids away to foster care straight away, they should put all this force that they give to foster families, to the actual parents, and keep families together and only take the kids away when it's absolutely necessary.

LL: OK, Barb and Maureen. Amber feels she got put into the system on all her dad needed was help. Do you think her concerns are being listened to by anyone?

BARB LASON-SWAIN: I would hope so. But I don't like we're not there yet. It's definitely, hopefully, something that's changing. I was also the E.D. of the Aboriginal Mothers Centre here in Vancouver, and there's only one centre like that and 16 beds in the struggle to keep mothers and children together is the biggest part of their work. So I know there's supports and systems out there to help, but homelessness is a huge, poverty itself, is a huge precursor to children being taken away. And if we were to have more supports, especially financial supports that, you know, are freely given to foster families, if those kind of supports came to families that are struggling, there would be less struggle and there'd be less- any of the issues that are the big points on having kids apprehended.

MAUREEN PALMER: Maureen, I didn't see it. I hear from different experts that there's a lot of talk about it. I also think that indigenous families are uniquely discriminated against. This is a stat from February of 2018. The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruled for the fifth time since 2016 that the federal government's First Nations child welfare system is discriminatory. It is so poorly funded compared to the regular child welfare system. And frankly, neither of them is working. But the crisis is amongst our indigenous people where, for instance, in B.C., 60 percent of the kids in care are indigenous, while they're five, seven percent of the population.

LL: How much money would the provincial governments save if they took a different approach to this, if they built proper housing and took care of these young people and supported them? Maureen.

MAUREEN PALMER: At least 200million dollars a year for the thousand that age out of care every year in B.C.. Multiply that by the thousands across the country in other jurisdictions. I also feel like it's a moral failing on the part of all of us. We see indigenous families struggling. We also see families where a child may be trying to struggle with LGBTQ issues. And there's a reluctance to get involved in anybody else's business. But I feel that there ought to be a way that people who actually care about both of those groups can have an impact and put pressure on governments to change things.

LL: Mercedes, if you had a chance to see the premier of B.C., for example, and talk to him, what would you tell him about the system and aging out and what help you need?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: The system is broken and there are big changes that we need to make to better it in the future. I personally feel like one of the biggest issues for youth growing up in care is a sense of belonging. You grow up bouncing around from home to home, and not only are you losing that home and that family, but you're losing your school, you're losing your friends. You might even be losing your dentist or your doctor, small things. And then you have to start over again. Whereas, you know, when you look at Lu'ma and the building that I work in, if it doesn't work out with the family and the kid in care, the family goes and the kid gets to keep their school, their house, their sense of belonging. And even now at 24, I still struggle with the sense of belonging. And I'm still trying to find out where I belong because of how the system has failed me.

LL: And you're 24. I'm wondering what you see in your future, then?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Oh, definitely. Something in the in the field of working with youth and fighting to make the system better.

LL: Mercedes, when you're dealing with younger people, I imagine that you're effective because you have been through this and you've been affected by it. What do you say to them when you're trying to help them?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Oh, I try and just relate based on what I've been through. But at the same time, sometimes it can be hard because I was fortunate and I did end up with my family. But, you know, I have Darias's life to look at because I was around so often and I was fighting for him and I was his voice. And so, you know, I tell them my story and I hope that in some way they'll relate to me and we can kind of go from there. It gets hard. It's one of those things where sometimes you don't expect what you're going to hear and you take it home with you. I just, I remind them that it's eventually we're all going to get to that point where we feel okay again. And hopefully there're someone who can come to our program and meet, Barb, and become a part of that family.

LL: In that sense, I think you really still are Darias's voice and you carry his spirit forward. Do you feel that?

MERCEDES FORTNEY: I try every day.

LL: I think we will end it there. I think all three of you for speaking with me.

MAUREEN PALMER: Thank you, Laura.

MERCEDES FORTNEY: Thank you.

BARB LASON-SWAIN: Thank you.

LL: Maureen Palmer is the director of 19 and homeless. Mercedes Fortney was a foster child. She's now working at Vancouver's Lu'ma Native Housing Society, where Barb Lawson Swain is the program director. They were all in our Vancouver studio. You can see the documentary on Out TV this Friday. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q today. Our neighbours to the south are cooking up turkeys for their Thanksgiving, something many Canadians are going to be doing in less than a month for Christmas. It's not always an easy meal to prepare, but luckily operators are standing by at a turkey talk line to answer all the questions you can throw at them. In fact, they are taking calls right up until December the 24th. We couldn't wait that long, so we made the call. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

SUE: Hi, my name is Sue Smith. I'm with the Butterball Turkey talk line. I am one of the Turkey experts here and I've been talking turkey for 21 years.

VOICE 1: I'll tell you one thing we can do.

VOICE 2: What's that, Sir?

VOICE 1: This time of the year there should be a hotline you can call with questions about cooking turkeys, a special 800 number with a phone to staffed by experts.

VOICE 2: There is.

VOICE 1: What do you mean?

VOICE 2: The Butterball hotline.

SUE: I answer all sorts of questions and how to prepare your turkey. The food safety questions. Nutrition questions.

VOICE 1: Butterball has a hotline?

VOICE 2: Yes, it's an 800 number. The phones are staffed by experts.

VOICE 1: Are you kidding me?

VOICE 2: No.

VOICE 1: God, I'm sorry. I love my country. Charlie, get me the number for the Butterball...

SUE: We'll take, you know, over the season, about 100,000 calls. In just Thanksgiving Day alone, of course, is our busiest day, we'll pick about 10,000 calls. Every year, we've been here 39 years, and year after year, the most popular question is how to thaw your turkey.

VOICE 3: At 4:00 a.m. with the help of a taxi driver named Mohammed, they found an open store. He bought the last turkey there. 12 pounds frozen as tight as a cannonball. Grade B, whatever that meant.

SUE: So maybe it's not completely defrosted in time or they forgot to defrost it. Things get crazy with busy schedules and so you can certainly cold water thaw your turkey as well.

VOICE 3: He was home by 4:30 and by 6:30 he had the turkey more or less thawed. He used an electric blanket and a hairdryer on the turkey [Laughter]. And a bottle of scotch on himself.

SUE: I've had a call where that literally was in their hot tub and they just didn't know how long they keep it in there. So, of course, you never want a thaw it in a hot tub or anywhere warm. Keep it cold.

VOICE 3: As the turkey defrost that it became clear what Grade B meant. The skin on the right drumstick was ripped. Dave's turkey looked like it had made a break from the slaughterhouse and dragged itself a block or two before it was captured and beaten to death. [Laughter]

SUE: Typically we like to say we can save all the turkeys, but we didn't have a call from a group of college kids. They were so fun. They were doing their own friends giving. They couldn't make it home to their families and they were all excited. But by mistake, one of them hit the self-clean button on their oven. So unfortunately, there was no going back on that one. But they were able - they split up someone to their neighbours and borrowed a grill and carried it over and the other ones went to the store and got a fresh turkey. And so they just brought the party outside, grilled that turkey, and still had a great time.

[Music]

SUE: My truly favourite ones are the more heartwarming ones, and I spoke to an individual last year. He was 92, cooking is Thanksgiving turkey for the very first time. It always witnesses wife do it, but he never has done it himself. He had his family over his kids, his grandkids, even his great grandkids. And typically we talk three to four minutes. In this one was over 45 minutes. It was just such a special call because we could just tell he was really enjoying carrying on this tradition for his family.

[Music]

SUE: This was fun. He went to propose to his girlfriend and he wondered, put the ring in the stuffing and he was concerned if that would hurt the stuffing. And we kind of got a chuckle out of it because we were more concerned that the ring would get lost or something would happen to the ring instead. So he did go to plan B on how he proposed. His plan B was he put it in the bottom of the wine glass. But that was fun and they actually called back. Here we get a lot of people who call us back later and tell us, you know, how it turned out or how the story ended. And she did say yes.

[Music]

SUE: I love food. I love cooking. I'm a registered dietitian. I just love helping others and helping people enjoy this holiday as well. It's just such a special time. Everyone can be thankful. And to help them enjoy that special day is truly where we all come here.

[Music]

The Current Transcript for November 28, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Confront racism when you see it in hockey, says Karl Subban

Nir Eyal on how to overcome digital distractions and find your focus

Documentary 19 and homeless

Thursday November 28, 2019 Full Text Transcript

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