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The Current Transcript for November 24, 2021

Host: Robyn Bresnahan

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

REPORTER: This is a town that's been virtually vacant over the past 10 days. They've been without power, sewage and water, and about a third of the town is still underwater.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Those words could describe the scenes in Merritt, British Columbia, right now, but they're actually referring to the flood in High River, Alberta, in 2013. We'll be speaking to residents who lived through it about how they coped then, how they're doing now, and advice they have for southern B.C., also this morning:

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: I've had to take some breaks from this project. The things I've seen, the ideas that are being shared. There's a lot of really, really young guys on these sites. I fear for what exposure to this type of content is doing to their minds.

RB: Online forums where people from the incel movement meet are not nice places, but Ellen Chloe Bateman forced herself to spend time on them. In the wake of the Toronto van attack she wanted to better understand who these young men are and why they subscribe to misogyny and violence. She'll join me to talk about incels alongside Evan Mead, who knew the man who perpetrated that attack. We'll also find out where Matt Galloway has been and where he will be bringing you the show from for the rest of the week. But we begin this morning with a new beginning of sorts in Ottawa. I'm Robyn Bresnahan sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Political veterans weigh in on the throne speech — and the session ahead

Guests: Lisa Raitt, Libby Davies and Wayne Easter

MARY SIMON: Honourable Senators. Members of the House of Commons. [greetings in Inuktitut]

RB: That's Mary Simon making history as the first Indigenous governor general, welcoming new parliamentarians in Inuktitut, delivering her first speech from the throne. She began by urging members of Parliament to learn about the lived realities of First Nations, Metis and Inuit people. She then laid out the government's priorities for the 44th session of Parliament. Joining me now to discuss that and other issues from the Hill is our panel of political veterans: Lisa Raitt served as the conservative member for Milton and Halton in Ontario and held several cabinet positions under Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Libby Davies is the former member for Vancouver East and served as NDP House leader from 2003 to 2011. And Wayne Easter is the former solicitor general of Canada and served nine terms as the Liberal member for Malpeque, Prince Edward Island. Good morning, everyone.

ALL: Good morning.

RB: Libby Davies, let's start with you. Parliament, of course, returning with this backdrop of natural disaster in British Columbia. Alarmingly, more rain in the forecast. Do you think the threat of climate change got enough prominence in the throne speech?

LIBBY DAVIES: Well, I feel like it's been years of so many promises, and it was the same in the speech from the throne. For people in B.C. who have been struggling through just an unbelievable time with the wildfires, the heat dome and now these incredible floods and the reality of the climate emergency. I feel that people in B.C. were expecting a much bigger punch in terms of knowing that the federal government would be there for them. I mean, they did announce that they will sort of have this climate emergency preparedness coming up. But in terms of what's happening now on the ground in B.C., in places like Princeton and Merritt and Abbotsford and elsewhere, I mean, people really need help. So I'm sure that the speech from the throne wasn't really on their mind. You know, it's more of a symbolic thing. But I was struck by what the mayor of Princeton had to say that he was dealing with layers of bureaucracy, you know. So words, you know, at a certain point, you've got to get down to the actions and I think that's a problem with the speech from the throne as well. It's about the deliverables. And that's been an ongoing issue for the Liberals over the past six years. Big promises, short on the deliverables. It sort of feels like you're watching a rerun of a movie over and over again, but you always keep hoping for a better ending, you know?

RB: Lisa Raitt, Catherine McKenna, who has been a regular guest on this panel, tweeted this week with a plea for a "Post-partisan consensus on serious climate action in Canada". What in practical terms would that look like to you?

LISA RAITT: I think that there is some common ground in the issue that Libby just raised, which is adaptation and dealing with the impacts of these storms, of these disasters that are happening here in Canada. And I think that it's one thing that all the parties can agree to, and that's one aspect of dealing with climate change. It's making sure your country is adaptable, your infrastructure is resilient. And I do think that all parties can get together on that. I also believe that all parties agree on reducing emissions. So that's a positive thing. Where everyone seems to differ is the way in which you reach those emissions reductions. However, that being said, you know, the government has already set the path. Business has met them on the path, as has finance. And that's the direction that we're going to be going in. So, you know, I feel domestically that once Minister Wilkinson and Minister Dubeau come out with their set plans, everything is going to start moving in that direction. And the debate isn't going to be so much of why are we doing this? But more along the lines of how are we going to get this done? And is this the best way to do it?

RB: Lisa, do you see climate change as being partisan or political?

LISA RAITT: Well, I think it was weaponized. I think it did become at one point in time, I think you can't forget the fact that in 2008 we ran an election, the Conservatives ran an election on no carbon tax and no carbon shift. That was Stephane Dion's idea. And then we move into 2015, where Justin Trudeau ran on the opposite side, which is we do need to make sure that we have a carbon tax and that we look after climate and then it became a partisan issue from there. I'm hoping that the parties all kind of moved a little bit along the path in this last election, recognising that Canadians do want to do something about climate change.

RB: Wayne Easter, how would you respond to what Libby Davies said? Big on words that's what the Liberals have been, but short on actual action.

WAYNE EASTER: Well, certainly there needs to be more action taken. But throne speeches lay out basically an agenda from the election, the last election and where the government intends to go. I think one of the most important points on the throne speech, key really, is that it means parliament is back and where the people's representatives of all party are given voice. And regardless of what's... yes, that's the government agenda. But Dan Albus or Ed Fast from B.C. can walk across the floor and talk to the Minister of Emergency Services and say, this is what needs to be done today. That may be off the throne speech agenda, but that's what's important about Parliament being back. The broad strokes are there, and opposition parties and government backbenchers will have to hold the government to account in terms of let's get this done and get it delivered. And I think these floods in B.C., all the environmental actions that are happening... we're having floods in Cape Breton and Newfoundland today on this end of the country, all those actions are pointing to, that the time is here guys, get this done.

RB: When it comes to Parliament being back, Libby Davies, on a practical term... Erin O'Toole, the conservative leader, says all the conservative MPs have been vaccinated or they've been granted exemptions ahead of reopening of the house. Any concerns there for you?

LIBBY DAVIES: Well, I guess the concern... I mean, I watched yesterday and I saw the interview right after the speech from the throne with him, and I found it sort of unsettling that he couldn't answer just a direct question in terms of how many of the MPs in the Conservative caucus have a medical exemption. I mean, he just won't directly answer it, and it sort of does, sort of make you think, Well, why not? And I think it's something that could be put to rest so easily. I mean, I know the Conservatives made a point of privilege in the House yesterday, and I'm sure the speaker will bring forward a ruling very quickly. But you know, the Board of Internal Economy does oversee the overall safety and wellness and health of the House. And believe me, years past they've fallen short on that, in terms of things like sexual harassment in a safe workplace. But, you know, I think they made a good decision, and I think Mr. O'Toole needs to really just be very transparent with Canadians because otherwise it just leaves you wondering and I can't figure out why he would do that. You know, honestly, I just think he couldn't answer a direct question and then move on, get on with it.

RB: Well, Lisa Raitt, this is something that has been plaguing Erin O'Toole and the Conservative Party. And this, along with other kinds of internal strife as well. Senator Denise Batters circulating a petition calling for a review of Erin O'Toole's leadership. She's now being kicked out of caucus. How big a challenge is he facing over his leadership?

LISA RAITT: I think now that everybody's back on the Hill, there's a speech from the throne, we're into the process of Parliament. There are going to be mandate letters that the ministers are going to receive, that people will be able to go through to see what the ministers are going to accomplish based upon the speech from the throne. And there's a pretty big problem of inflation and cost of living going up in this country, Robyn. So there's a lot there, to [clears throat], pardon me, to rally conservatives around common issues. So once you get into the swing of things, once everybody is together, once you have regular caucus meeting face to face, ability to actually speak to one another and work through issues, I think it's fine.

RB: Do you still think that Erin O'Toole is the right person to lead the Conservative Party, Lisa?

LISA RAITT: Sure.

RB: Why?

LISA RAITT: He won. Why? Because I think he is... He was excellent in his discussion yesterday after the speech from the throne. I think he is measured. I think he is representative of his community, of his constituency and of conservatives. And he's really smart and he's a hard worker. And those are qualities that I actually admire and I value in public leaders. So yes, I think he is. I think he's doing a good job and I think he's going to continue to work through some very difficult situations. And Robyn, I'm going to... just to address Libby's issue if this is a workplace safety issue, that if disclosure of numbers of vaccinated versus exemptions is integral to the working of a healthy workplace, then ask the human resources officer of Parliament to make the disclosure. Ask them, and they won't do it. Why? Because it's a privacy issue.

RB: Libby?

LIBBY DAVIES: Well, I mean, I think we're in the political arena. This has become an issue. I agree with Lisa that there's many other things that need to be addressed and so we should get past this and move on to substantive business of the house. But the fact that he cannot disclose when other parties have been able to disclose the status of their caucus, I mean, it just seems kind of unreal to most people. That's all I can say. You know, I think he should just be transparent, say where his caucus is at in terms of who's vaccinated, the numbers. I mean, that's what people are asking and then move on. And yes, get on to the real important business of parliament.

RB: OK, well, let's move on from that a little bit, Wayne Easter. I mean, you have seen divided oppositions before in your career. What impact do you think that internal conflict within one party has in this instance on the conservatives ability to hold the government to account?

WAYNE EASTER: Well, I think when you're in opposition, when... And you become the message, you've lost the initiative. And that's the problem here. The... you know... Erin O'Toole has lots of, I think, good points to raise. And... but he or the party's decision in this case has become the message. And when he holds a press conference, that's about all he's asked on. And the other side of this picture is that the government have seen the House Leader Mark Holland is pushing hard to have a hybrid parliament. Well, it gives them leverage to push for their hybrid parliament because they can use the safety, the health issue as a factor because of the lack of directness from Erin O'Toole and just where their members are at in terms of vaccination. And it's not just members, it's Hill staff, library of Parliament, staff, pages/members offices staff. I'm one who's not in favour of a hybrid parliament because I believe members of Parliament should be in Ottawa, where they can walk across the floor or up the aisle, face the ministers and say this is an important issue today and it makes it a lot easier in a hybrid parliament for the centre being the cabinet or the leadership other parties to get their way because you can't get together with opposition members or your own members behind the curtains to plan a strategy or whatever in terms of some decisions being made.

RB: Libby Davies, being another minority government the Liberals are going to need support of another party to get their agenda through, and that agenda includes a pretty tight timeline to get four key bills passed before the Christmas break. There's the extension of some COVID benefits, 10 days of COVID sick pay, the ban on intimidating health care workers... outside hospitals, conversion therapy ban. I mean, there's a speculation that there's been a backroom deal struck between the NDP and the Liberals. Do you think that's the case?

LIBBY DAVIES: Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't have any sort of inside information on that. One can only speculate. I think it's possible that there are some discussions going on. But I did hear Mr. Singh say very clearly yesterday, don't take our support for granted. Now we're talking about a confidence vote that's going to come up in short order with a speech from the throne. But I think there's also the longer term issue of the budget coming up, and that may well be what Mr. Singh is sort of setting the stage for in terms of what are the deliverables in a budget. I mean, he was very clear that there are some things that he will look... that he's on board with, for example, that conversion ban... therapy. And of course, it was the NDP that pushed very hard and advocated for the paid sick leave at the federal level. So those are things obviously that he's going to support. But there are many other things that he noted that were silent in the speech from the throne like Pharmacare, dental care. Nothing about the ending of fossil fuel subsidies, nothing about commitments that Liberals have made for transfers of health care dollars. So obviously there's going to be a lot... There's still going to be tension. And in some ways I think that's unfortunate because we want this parliament to do its best in terms of working together and finding that consensus, particularly on these major issues like the climate emergency. I mean, I do think it's so important to try and move forward and find agreement on that. But still, there's going to be points of tension, particularly as we get beyond the speech from the throne and get into a budget scenario.

RB: Lisa Raitt, one of the bills that the Liberals are hoping to pass, is the extension of some COVID wage and rent benefits to the hardest hit sectors, including tourism. Can you see those more targeted COVID benefits getting conservative support?

LISA RAITT: Devil's always in the details, Robyn, I don't know, I haven't seen any legislation and I haven't talked to anybody involved in it. I do think, though, that conservatives are... What they will do is they will be very concerned about making sure that we're not going to go further into debt. We have already a massive debt that we know that we're going to be facing, and now we have inflation, which is... which is going to be of concern because it's going to hit the pocketbooks of ordinary Canadians who don't live in Ottawa, who don't attend parliament and MPs are going to hear about it over the Christmas holidays, for sure when they're back in their ridings. So that'll be something that they're going to focus on. And I'm going to put in a plug with Wayne. I completely agree with him that a hybrid parliament is difficult for people to do their primary goal in Ottawa, which is to advocate for their constituents, face to face meetings work far better than sending your minister an email.

RB: Haven't we proven during the pandemic that you can do it both ways, though, Lisa?

LISA RAITT: I would submit that if you talk to constituency offices across the country, they will tell you that they found it a lot more difficult to serve their constituents in this kind of indirect way.

RB: Hmm. Wayne Easter, I mean, Justin Trudeau said that they needed this last election because Parliament was dysfunctional. They needed a new mandate for the ambitious things that they want to do. What gives you faith that this new session is going to be any better?

WAYNE EASTER: Well, I would hope that all parties and all leaders, including Justin Trudeau, has learnt a lesson that no one party has all the ideas. Parliament is a place of compromise. And regardless of the party in power, you're not always going to get your way. So on this one, I would say there has to be compromise on all sides. I think the government has laid out some very important issues and they've got to concentrate on some of these big issues like reconciliation, climate action and building the long term economy and recovering from the pandemic. They have to really concentrate on those issues, sometimes in a minority parliament. Now there's... It doesn't always have to be the NDP that supports the government for the government to continue. But I do think everyone has to put a little wine, a little water in their wine, compromise and not get stuck on one single little issue that is going to bring down the whole set of dominoes, kind of thing. And for the government, they have to be careful not to be absolutely boneheaded, if I could put it that way on getting their way. The people of Canadian, the people of Canada have sent this mix of parliamentarians to Ottawa, and they want to see the compromises made and the agendas fostered.

RB: Just finally, in the last 40 seconds, I'll give this one to you, Lisa. I mean, we kept hearing yesterday how it was so historic yesterday, that moment where Mary Simon, the first Indigenous governor general, welcomed new parliamentarians and Inuktitut. What did watching that moment? What did it mean to you?

LISA RAITT: It was beautiful, and I thought of my good friend Leona Aglukkaq, who did speak Inuktitut or still does actually. And I know that probably in that moment she felt a great sense of pride to hear her own language. And I think it was a beautiful moment.

RB: Thank you all. Nice to talk to you this morning.

WAYNE EASTER: Shows the diversity of the country, a good thing.

RB: Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks very much. Ending on some agreement. That was Lisa Raitt, who served as the conservative member for Milton and Halton and held several cabinet positions under Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Libby Davies was the MP for Vancouver East for 18 years and served as NDP House leader from 2003 to 2011, and Wayne Easter is the former solicitor general. He served nine terms as the Liberal member for Malpeque, Prince Edward Island. Well, the CBC News is coming up next and then:

CRAIG SNODGRASS: That's the thing about these disasters that I'm trying to get out to other communities that are experiencing this right now is that it's tough, but you can't change it. It came, it hit. Now, you have to decide, what are you going to do?

RB: Words of advice from someone who led a town through the worst flood in Alberta's history in six minutes from now, we'll speak to three people who lived through the high river floods of 2013 about what B.C. is going through now. I'm Robyn Bresnahan, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

How the trauma of the High River flood could offer a roadmap to recovery in B.C.

Guests: Connie Balerud, Rev. Susan Luke, Craig Snodgrass and Matt Galloway

RB: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

RB: Still to come: Two high school friends from the suburbs of Toronto took very different paths. One became an autism advocate and filmmaker. The other is in jail after killing 11 people in the Toronto van attack of 2018. I'll speak to Ellen Chloe Bateman and Evan Mead about the new CBC podcast Boys Like Me, exploring the dark online world of the Incel movement. That's coming up in about half an hour. But first, lessons learnt from one flood zone to another.

[Music: Theme]

RB: Merritt, British Columbia has been one of the worst hit places in that province after a record breaking storm. The entire town was evacuated last week as whole neighbourhoods were swallowed up by the nearby Coldwater River. Some residents were allowed back in yesterday, but others will be kept out for a while longer. The whole experience is all too familiar to residents of High River, Alberta.

[SOUNDCLIP: Voices of High River residents,

MALE VOICE: What you don't understand is we don't have a flood. We have a disaster. Floods are very easy to deal with. Water comes, water goes and then we clean up afterwards. This is a major disaster we're dealing with.

ANOTHER MALE VOICE: Like some, I preferred my glass or my river half full and optimistically felt that it was going to stop.

FEMALE VOICE: It really makes you realise how big of a mess we're going to come back to. It's not going to be a quick fix.]

RB: So the voices of former High River Mayor Emile Blokland and other high river residents after a flood devastated the town in June 2013. Those who lived through that disaster are still coping with the aftermath, and they have some lessons to share with the people of southern B.C. We'll hear three stories in the next half hour, starting with Connie Balerud. She's a longtime resident of High River and was there during the flood eight years ago. Connie, good morning to you.

CONNIE BALERUD: Good morning, Robyn.

RB: As you hear about this devastation in southern B.C. over the past week and a half, what kinds of things have been going through your mind?

CONNIE BALERUD: Oh, Robyn, it does. It brings it right back to you, for sure. You feel the anxiety for them, my heart really goes out to them. And you know, I can see all the long, hard work they've got ahead of them.

RB: You've had to turn off the news in some cases.

CONNIE BALERUD: I have had to turn the news off. I've been watching it, of course, because you're concerned and want to know what's going on, but it just does really bring it back and at points, at certain pictures you just have to shut it off and try, try not to think about it all day.

RB: What does it bring back for you?

CONNIE BALERUD: It brings back a lot of anxiety. It makes your stomach tense and brings you right back into those feelings of when, when we were here, there was a sense of having really no control over your life. For a certain point in time, we were locked out of the town. We had no idea what was going on with our home. If there was water in it or not or what was going on because we had no connections to media at that time. And once we did find out how much water was in our house, we were still locked out and couldn't get in and do anything. And once you can't do anything, it's really hard and tough. Once you're able to get back in and start moving forward I think for your mental health that certainly helps. But when you're feeling helpless and you know how much you've lost it, it was a hard thing.

RB: Connie, can you take us back to that moment the first time that you went back into your home after the flood? What was that like?

CONNIE BALERUD: So, Robyn, we were locked out of our home for 14 days, so just imagining water sitting in your home for 14 days is pretty anxious when we were able to come back. The neighbourhood was unrecognisable in a lot of ways, the neighbour down the street had a canoe against their door. As you know, the RCMP had come into everyone's homes even though we had registered. And so that was a trauma for us as well, seeing our doors kicked in. There was silt and debris from feed mills from all over town, from everywhere, on your lawns and on your front doors and in your back doors, windows were blown out. Our basement looked like a blender had gone through it. We, our coach, was down into our bathroom. The walls were falling down. There was pink and black and all kinds of stuff growing on any walls that were left up and your belongings were everywhere.

RB: How surprised are you that those memories are so vivid? Still, eight years on?

CONNIE BALERUD: Really surprised, I am really surprised by that. Surprised I've had to turn the TV off, surprised at how fresh those feelings are still there.

RB: Are you still in the same house?

CONNIE BALERUD: I am, we are still in the same house. It was a decision for us what we were going to do, if we were going to stay in High River, if we were going to move and it was different for myself and for my husband on what our feelings were on that. But yes, we are still here and I'm glad we are.

RB: What was it that got you through those early days?

CONNIE BALERUD: I think the early days for me with all the chaos, it's all, it's all too much and there's a little bit of a shut down. For my husband, he's a doer. And luckily for me, he's a good advocate. And one thing that we did was really connect with our neighbours. We contacted our neighbours. We would meet once a week at a location just to have a coffee and a meeting with those neighbours and find out information that they might know that we didn't know. And for us to share information with them and everybody came prepared taking notes and just trying to help each other out.

RB: Connie Some people in B.C. are going to be headed back to their flooded homes in the coming days if everything goes okay. What advice might you have for them about what to expect in the short term and in the long term as well?

CONNIE BALERUD: I think it is a long haul for the long term, so be prepared for that. In the short term just try to take it one step at a time, one day at a time, get together with whoever is in your neighbourhood, if you can. Talk about the information that you're finding out from insurance companies, from the government. Be prepared when you come in. There's simple things like you will need rubber boots, you're going to need gloves, you're going to need masks, you're going to need a small first aid kit, you're going to need water, you're going to need to start to think about getting contractors together for once you get back in, you're going to probably need appliances like a furnace and hot water tank, those simple things. So if you can start those things now before you get back in, you're going to probably find that that's helpful.

RB: One day at a time, Connie, thank you.

CONNIE BALERUD: You're welcome, thank you, Robyn.

RB: That's Connie Balerud. She's a long time resident of High River Alberta, who lived through the devastating flood in 2013. Reverend Susan Lukey also has vivid memories from that flooding. Susan's a minister at the High River United Church, and she joins us now. Good morning, Susan.

SUSAN LUKEY: Good morning, Robyn.

RB: I wonder if we could hear a little bit about your story. On the 20th of June 2013, the waters were getting higher and higher. What do you remember about that day and how quickly those waters were rising?

SUSAN LUKEY: I've lived through other floods here in High River, and so, you know, when the water rises, you sort of have a pattern and you know what it was. I had gone down to the church that morning to work and we were watching the river. The church is just about 100 metres from the river so we can walk down and check it out. We knew it was rising, but then suddenly it started breaching the banks. It was trickling down the back alley and we knew we were in a totally different scenario than I'd ever been in before. So we had volunteers coming in sandbagging and that sort of went through the morning. And about 11 o'clock, I think it was. So, you know, sometimes the time starts getting fuzzy because it all was happening just suddenly so fast. The last of our volunteers had left and I went back in to get my purse and just... we had been putting stuff up so that if the water came in the church, it wouldn't get wet. Trying to guess how high that might be. And I went back in and suddenly it was like a wall of water had come down and the church was surrounded by about three feet of water. There was no way to get out, so I ended up stuck in the church overnight, not realising the massive extent of the flooding.

RB: Did you sleep?

SUSAN LUKEY: Um, well, I tried to doze what I did is, you know, try... Not having any sense of how high this water was going to go since it had come up so quickly and it was starting to come into the doors, into the church at that point and in through some of the walls. I got a ladder at the back of our sanctuary. There's sort of a four foot ledge that we put decorations and that on. So I got a ladder and I got up there. It's about 10 feet off the floor. It was sort of the highest point I could get to having no clue how high this water would go. And so I got up there with the ladder, pulled the ladder up and spent the night up there. I probably dozed, but it... it's pretty hard when you're hearing water come in and tipping furniture and the creaking. And we had just finished building the building five years previously. So all I could think about that night was all the work that had gone in, all the hours that volunteers and others had put in. And just watching it be devastated. But the water was... the water was just too heavy around the church for me to get out. So it was about six o'clock the next morning when I could see that the water had gone down to about ankle depth and I was able to walk out and get a ride back to our side of town, only to discover that it was basically the whole town underwater, not just our side. I had been able to call my husband and sons a couple of times before all the cell phones went down, so they knew where I was. They knew how I was approaching things. But then I got back to the house and discovered they had been evacuated. I had to sort of wade through water to get to the house, and as I got back to our house, the basement was just starting to fill with water.

RB: It's so I mean, just like Connie, I mean, the memories are so vivid for you. And Connie used that word traumatic as well, and I'm sure that you had to as well. Dealing with all of that, had to become a sort of, kind of comforter in chief for people who rely on you. What advice do you have for people in B.C. right now who might be listening and who might be feeling that sense of trauma and hopelessness?

SUSAN LUKEY: Well, I think, you know, it is. I mean, just as Connie said, it just brings back the memories. I feel it in my body. I just... I can't watch the pictures... and but I think... I've done a lot of thinking, a lot of work with people through the years and I think the things I would say is remember right now this is a marathon, not a sprint. There's things you have to do quickly and get done and you want to get going back into your house. But this is going to be a long term recovery, the physical recovery, the emotional, spiritual, mental recovery. And I think that's, you know, one of the biggest things it's hard to slow down. You just want to get all ready, but it's going to take time.

RB: Do you think that people are still feeling the impacts eight years on?

SUSAN LUKEY: Oh, yeah, I've had many conversations this week with people in our congregation who are feeling the impact, you know, sort of at first it's the physical dealing with all the physical aspects, but then it just takes a while to deal with the mental, emotional. It's just that you're working so hard physically at first, and then afterwards, everything else starts settling in and it's different for every person, depending on past experiences and what your actual experience the day of the flood was. But it takes time. It really does take time.

RB: Reverend, good to talk to you this morning. Thank you.

SUSAN LUKEY: You're most welcome, Robyn.

RB: That's Reverend Susan Lukey, she's a minister at the High River United Church. Our last guest this half hour is someone who helped lead High River out of disaster and into recovery. Craig Snodgrass took office as mayor in the fall of 2013, just after the flooding. He's been in that job ever since. Mayor, good morning.

CRAIG SNODGRASS: Morning, Robyn.

RB: What kinds of memories are the floods in B.C. bringing back for you?

CRAIG SNODGRASS: Well, I'll tell you, I'm bang on with both Connie and Susan. Like what Connie was saying, it's tough to watch. [small cough] Excuse me, it took... it took me a couple of days after seeing pictures on Facebook, but it took me a couple of days before I could actually, you know, really start to delve in what was going on in B.C. because you see the pictures and it's just, it's like it happened yesterday, what we went through in High River. So, it takes you a little bit of time to get your mind prepared for watching it because you know exactly what these people are in for.

RB: You had this huge challenge of rebuilding High River. I mean, not everybody agreed on the best way to do that. Can you tell me about the aftermath and some of those conversations?

CRAIG SNODGRASS: Yeah, well, any decision you make you're not going to... you're not gonna make everybody happy, you try to get the most taken care of as well as you can, but you know, it wasn't just the town, it was every business or residence. You know, Reverend Lukey and their rebuild of the church. Everybody had their own little piece of this puzzle to put back together, and we were very successful in doing that. You know, the biggest challenges for us... Number one, was our council, number one priority was safety and security. So within a year we built eight and a half kilometres of banking at that time because we wanted to make sure that by June, the next year that we were protected if that amount of water came again and you know, we didn't get it all done, but we knew we had the town pretty much 90 percent taken care of, but... so, that was the big one. And those were very aggressive projects, huge, huge construction projects. But that was number one. And you know, and today, now just last year. So seven years later was when we finally finished all of our, all of our actual mitigation. So it takes a long time to get that stuff put into place. So that was priority number one. And then the number two thing was our downtown, right where the United Church that Susan is talking about is, the whole downtown was devastated. So including all of our underground services, water and wastewater, sewer mains. So all those streets had to be dug up and all those lines had to be replaced because lots of them were 100 years old. And so when we looked at it, we said, OK, well, yes, we've got to tear this up. Yes, we've got to put it back together. What do we want it to look like when we put it back together? Do we want it to continue to look like 1956 in High River, Alberta? Or do we want to bring us kind of into the current state and learn more from what we've learnt over the decades, most vehicle centric and where we're going in the future. So the basics of it, we changed from going to a vehicle centre downtown to much more of a pedestrian centre downtown. So instead of just focussing on tons of street parking, we lessen the parking, put wider sidewalks in for pedestrians and beautified our downtown.

RB: So it almost sounds like... Sorry to interrupt, Mayor but it almost sounds like then out of the devastation came this opportunity. I mean, I wonder what advice, what advice you wish someone had given you eight years ago?

CRAIG SNODGRASS: I don't know, we had like they do in B.C. right now, we had a lot of very, very good people, you know, giving us good advice and, you know, we had to make decisions at the end of the day, but. You know, that's the silver lining to all of this and especially the people in Merritt. You know, you really... With disaster comes opportunity, and it's so hard to see right now, I know that, but you really got to start looking as to how you want to rebuild your house, rebuild your business, rebuild your town and look at the opportunities that's been given to you. Because as hard as it is, when we look back at what happened to High River as far as the municipality goes. We came out of the flood in a very, very positive way. There's no question there's been over $450 million spent in a town of 14000/15000 people. That includes all the [inaudible], plus all the street replacements and everything else, right? So it's not a cheap venture, but you do have opportunity to do that. And hopefully the provincial and federal governments do as they say they're going to do and support these people like we were supported in High River. We're very fortunate to live in a country as great as Canada is and live in these provinces that are very privileged and we have the resources and the money behind us to be able to put this back together. But number one piece of advice is exactly like what Connie and Reverend Susan were talking about is that somehow you've got to find a way to slow down a little bit. That was the biggest mistakes that we saw. Because, you know, and I'm speaking directly from my personal experience at my home that, you know, when you get back to your home, you know... You know, you got heavy metal music playing in the back of your head and it's just [music sounds] and you just go, go, go right. And man, we threw a lot of really valuable stuff out just because it had a little bit of mud on it. Three years later, we're wondering where that piece went. Well, it was in the dump now, right? So...

RB: I think that's really great...

CRAIG SNODGRASS: You've got to find a way to slow down.

RB: Yeah, I was just going to say, I think that that's great advice in the middle of it where all that adrenaline is pumping through. Just take a deep breath and slow down.

CRAIG SNODGRASS: Yeah.

RB: Craig, thank you. Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. Well, thanks for your thoughts, and it was really good to talk to you this morning.

CRAIG SNODGRASS: Excellent. Thanks, Robyn.

RB: That's Craig Snodgrass. He's the mayor of High River. If you want to hear more from High River, our colleagues at "What on Earth" put together an excellent documentary episode on this. It's called "After the Flood", and it tells the stories of how the town came together, the lasting impacts on mental health and the community driven solutions that have emerged since. And you can find that on the CBC Listen app. Well, from lessons learnt in Alberta back to the current cleanup in B.C., Matt Galloway has been on the ground in British Columbia, preparing for some special programmes on the floods and the state of emergency in B.C. Matt, good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, Robyn.

RB: Where have we reached you this morning?

MATT GALLOWAY: In the beautiful city of Kamloops, British Columbia. We're here, obviously talking to people who have been displaced by the floods. And I mean, it's interesting, even in the hotel that I'm staying in, there are a lot of folks who have been evacuated from their communities who have been sent here, either to Kamloops. There are other people who've been sent to Colonia. You see people who... they're here with their pets, they're here with their families trying to figure out what happens next. We went yesterday to a ranch where some of the animals that have been caught up in these floods have been moved to, including most famously, people may have seen the photos in the videos, some horses that were lifted by helicopter and a pregnant cow that was lifted by helicopter as well. But it's an incredible operation, and the thing that you notice is just how committed people are to helping each other out. This rancher just threw herself into this, had never done anything like this before, did a bunch of research on how to move these animals. And the option was you move the animals or the animals are going to die. And so people came together. People donated money, donated a helicopter and they moved these animals. It's remarkable.

RB: How often are you hearing the sentence, we just got over the forest fires, now this?

MATT GALLOWAY: I think that is a real weariness that runs through a lot of the people that we'll be talking to. I mean, we're on our way down to Merritt, where the town... the entire city was flooded out. This is an area right through the Fraser Valley. I was here at the end of August talking to people who had been displaced by the forest fires. There had been the heat dome. There had been the fires in 2017. Now these floods and the sense that I think a lot of people are wondering is, you know, how do you rebuild? Can you rebuild? And then what do you do? Do you go back to those communities that have been hit time and again? Is this where people want to live? And that's kind of the sentiment that you hear from a lot of people and what I'm expecting to hear, people are just now starting to get back into Merritt. So we'll talk to them about how comfortable they are being in that community.

RB: Well, we'll hear much more from you tomorrow and on Friday on the program. So for now, take care. Thanks so much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks, Robyn.

RB: That's Matt Galloway. He's the host of The Current and he's going to be presenting the program tomorrow from Kamloops, B.C. Coming up after your regional update:

EVAN MEAD: All I remember is chaos as the sirens grew louder and louder and I saw helicopters circling the area. It occurred to me that this is no ordinary accident.

RB: Evan Mead has spent over three years trying to come to terms with that day, the day a man he'd known in high school drove a van down Toronto's Yonge street, killing and injuring scores of people. He'll join us in 90 seconds, along with CBC podcast host Ellen Chloe Bateman, to talk about their attempts to understand what happened that day. My name is Robyn Bresnahan, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

New CBC podcast explores incel culture connected to the Toronto van attack

Guest: Ellen Chloe Bateman and Evan Mead

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan in for Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. The day was April 23rd, 2018, and the news began coming in about a deadly attack in Toronto.

FEMALE VOICE: The square was packed, you know, it was kind of the first really nice day of spring and we were chatting and I heard a crash and all we could hear were, you know, people screaming and yelling and someone I distinctly remember hearing someone yell, stop that van.

ANOTHER FEMALE VOICE: And we didn't even hear him coming because there's so much noise on Yonge. And it's the last thing you would expect is somebody barrelling down the sidewalk at 50 kilometres an hour in a truck. You just would never have expected it. So I didn't hear him coming.

RB: And no one did at first. But that day, the van killed 10 people and injured 16 more. And just over a week ago, another one of the victims died after spending three years in hospital. The driver said he was inspired by the misogynistic incel movement. His lawyer tried unsuccessfully to argue he was not criminally responsible due to his autism spectrum disorder. He was found guilty on all charges and will be sentenced in the new year. All of this is being explored in a new CBC podcast called Boys Like Me. It's hosted by Ellen Chloe Bateman, and Evan Mead is a contributing producer who, as it turns out, knew the attacker from their high school days. Good morning to you, both.

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: Good morning, Robyn.

EVAN MEAD: Good morning, Robyn. Thank you for having us.

RB: Thank you for being here. Ellen, the shock of that day, of that attack, I think it's fair to say, was felt right across the country. What do you remember about that day?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: Yeah, so I had actually just moved out of the city a few days before this, and I was unpacking and we just set up our television set, and I just remember feeling just this huge sense of fear because this is like, this isn't anything we'd ever experienced here before. I have a lot of family in France, and so I had gotten used to, you know, giving them a phone call after... after a terror attack there because it was happening quite a bit for for a few years. And so for the first time I was, I was the one getting phone calls. And yeah, it just... it shook my world, it shook Evan's world, and it has devastated countless lives.

RB: Evan, you were actually quite nearby where the attack happened on the day. What do you remember about it?

EVAN MEAD: I was. I... All I remember is chaos because I was busing from north of the city, from Richmond Hill, and when I got to the terminal, I saw a Yonge street at Finch Avenue blocked off and I assumed, OK, it looks like a car accident. But then, as the sirens grew louder and louder and I saw helicopters circling the area, it occurred to me that this is no ordinary accident. This is something more serious.

RB: Evan at what point did you find out that the attacker was someone who you knew?

EVAN MEAD: I... When I got back home, I was making some dinner and I got a Facebook message request from a reporter from New York City, and they asked if they could take a minute to talk about someone on my Facebook friends list. And then I called them, and then they asked me if I knew anything about Alek Minassian. So she didn't even pronounce his name correctly, but I corrected her and said, Minassian, because I'm like, Oh, why? What, what's going on? And then I said, Yes, I do. I did know who he was in high school, what's going on. And then she said that there’s a possibility that he might be connected to the incident that happened at Yonge and Finch in Toronto today. And initially I... when it wasn't even confirmed like 100 percent, but there was like a suspicion of that. I was... that alone, like a whole feeling of shock envelopes my body.

RB: How did you know him, Evan?

EVAN MEAD: I met Alek in a special needs class at Thornlea secondary school, specifically for autism spectrum disorders, and our diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome was a commonality. I was friends with him. I played some video games with him. I knew him. I saw him at a couple of birthday parties. Yeah. And the last time I saw him was at our graduation ceremony in the year 2011.

RB: How would you have described him when you knew him, when you were friends with him? I mean, what was he like?

EVAN MEAD: Well, there was a certain immaturity about him. He would make jokes and puns. Often he would alter his tone of voice so that it was very, very high pitched. And we eventually came to call this his silly behaviour or his silliness. And it was very, very both off-putting and yet fascinating way of behaviour to observe and to be on the receiving end of in high school because I had never seen anyone autistic or not behave like that before. He was never violent, ever. He never attacked anyone. He may have invaded personal space, but he never assaulted anyone.

RB: What did you think when you realised that you knew this man who had killed and injured so many people?

EVAN MEAD: That's... That's a difficult question to answer. What did I think? Well, I was thinking about the, at the time, 10 lives that had been lost, and it was surreal to think that someone I would never even suspect of laying a finger on any human being could be capable... was capable of perpetuating such carnage. It was surreal. It was so surreal.

RB: You said you were Facebook friends. I mean, at some point, did you send him a message?

EVAN MEAD: He actually reached out to me and we had a brief conversation about where we were at in life. I was into filmmaking. He was just leaving college to enter the job market. And I admittedly... he sent the last message to me, but I didn't respond because I got busy at the time. And that was the last time we talked about a month and a half before the attack.

RB: In the podcast, you speak to a woman who was injured in the attack. Let's just take a listen to that.

[SOUNDCLIP: When I heard he was autistic, I could have had a small amount of sympathy. You know, I'm visually impaired. I was born blind, so I had... I had some surgeries, but I was very young, but I didn't have a lot of sight. And I went to an able-bodied school in the 50s and they really didn't want me at the school, and they made that very clear. I know what that's like to be an outsider and to struggle to be accepted so I could have some sympathy for him. Someone who, you know, had autism and it really didn't fit in. And I could understand that a bit and which would give me a little bit of empathy towards him until I got to know the situation more. And then that was done.]

RB: Ellen, the situation she's referring to was the attacker's connection to the incel movement. For those who don't know, who haven't heard or are not familiar with that, what is the incel movement?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: So essentially, the incel movement, it's a nihilistic subculture, and it's made up of men who, for whatever reason, are unable to form relationships. This they feel... this is because of how they look. It could be because of mental health issues, because of their race. So essentially, they've been conditioned to believe that society is rigged against them and that their situation is permanent. So it's, you know, they blame women for all of their problems and they promote violence against women and also against themselves. Self-harm, suicidal ideation and suicide is really, really high in this community. So that's actually part of what makes them particularly dangerous is sort of this idea that, you know, their situation as immutable and that they, you know, they essentially live in an ecosystem of hate and despair. So that's a really kind of dangerous combination.

RB: What did you learn, Ellen, about the attacker's connection to incels?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: One thing that I learned through investigating this subculture is that it's actually a part of a much larger ecosystem of male supremacist organisations. It's widespread and... men seem to migrate around. Right. So Alex Minassian absolutely had exposure to a lot of incel content, but he was one of these guys who was sort of absorbing the ideology from the periphery, right? So he didn't necessarily engage. You know, we know that he was, you know, socially anxious and socially avoidant. I mean, I spent some time on these sites. These are, you know, like the violence and the rhetoric. It's aggressive, right? It's sort of like this dark satire and it's really kind of, you know, it's... I can imagine it being an intimidating place for boys to jump into. So he was sort of absorbing this ideology from the periphery. But he was also looking at a number of other sites within this sort of male ecosystem known as the manosphere. Right. So there's a number of different kind of subcultures. There's cross-pollination with the alt-right. So he was looking at some alt-right content. He was looking at troll content. So he was absolutely influenced by the incel ideology. And he was also influenced by other cultures of hate.

RB: What was that like, Ellen, being on those sites, presumably you were pretending you were a man?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: Yeah, so I didn't actually engage. Right? We actually spoke to somebody who went undercover in the manosphere for about two years, and she put herself in the shoes of a young man named Alex. It's Laura Bates. She's a researcher in the UK and one of the leading experts on these subcultures. So she actually engaged. I was just sort of taking it in from the periphery, you know, the same way that a lot of people do. And it was, it was really... I had to take some breaks from this project. The things I've seen, the ideas that are being shared. Well, you know, I'm a grown woman. There's a lot of really, really young guys on these sites. And you know, I fear for what exposure to this type of content is doing to their minds.

RB: Did you get any sense of how prevalent the incel movement is in Canada?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: Yeah, absolutely. So we do have a problem here in Canada. So for incels, Canada is seen as the worst place you can be an incel. And that's because of our progressive agenda. So in countries that sort of prioritise things like gender equality, that actually raises the threat for radicalisation. So yeah, they call us cut Canada or beta Canada. And yeah, it is concerning here. There are organisations that are tracking activity, tracking the language that's being used, and they found that the language here in Canada is more hate fuelled, more vitriolic. So that kind of raises the stakes here a little bit.

RB: When you said that you have had to take some breaks from the project, I mean, what was it that you found so disturbing?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: There's a number of things I can't repeat on air, but yeah, I mean, it's... There's really, really graphic content being spread around like severe abuse of women, women, you know, videos of women being murdered. It's a lot to take in, it's... I think what was most problematic for me was like the way that these guys were treating their content as like entertainment, like there's like this gleeful kind of trolling that happens. And it's very, very bizarre to sort of take in all of these extreme ideas about women, you know, and also have that kind of element of humour like, I just found that to be really kind of disturbing. And it's kind of, yeah... my therapist is earning her rate these days. Yeah, no, it's but I mean, it's important, right? We have to be aware of what's happening. But I do want to say as well, you know, not all members of the incel community are violent. There's a lot of violent ideas that are spread around there, but a lot of guys are just in a state of hopelessness, that they can't seem to get out of. So the community is kind of split, right? You've got kind of one faction that, you know, they are genuinely, you know, in pain and lonely, and they're stuck in this echo chamber where they're told nothing's ever going to get any better. Right? And then there are guys who are, you know, it needs to be said. There are some guys who are just, you know, genuinely malicious, not good people, trolls. And yeah, so you get this mix.

RB: Evan when it was revealed that the attacker was on the autism spectrum. Did you worry that it would add to the stigma around autism?

EVAN MEAD: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, my thoughts and feelings were with the victims and their families. But I was terrified that it would further fuel the stigma, the negative stigma of autism, because a common stereotype is that, you know, we can't feel emotions and we're robotic, and that means we're predisposed to be dangerous. It's not at all true. And I was terrified that, you know, an autistic killer making headlines would lead the whole demographic to further stigmatisation because we already face a great amount of stigmatisation in our lives as autistic people.

RB: How much do you think, Evan, about that moment where the attacker reached out to you only a month and a half before on Facebook, you said you were busy, you didn't respond? Do you ever wish that you would have in any way?

EVAN MEAD: I have thought a great deal about what kind of a difference it would have made if I did respond because it's possible that maybe he was looking for, you know, comfort in old friends. And it's a very heavy burden to think about. And I've lost hours of sleep thinking about whether like, you know, this whole tragedy could have been prevented. If you know, I had said something or maybe the other friends he was listening to had said something. But one of the things that I do know is that a mutual friend of Alek's and mine did agree to meet up with him for coffee. On the week of April 23rd, that coffee date never took place. So they had a plan, they had a date and a time set up, and it didn't happen for obvious reasons.

RB: I mean, as you say, that's a huge burden to carry and you've lost so many hours of sleep over it. Ellen, what do you think when you hear Evan say that?

ELLEN CHLOE BATEMAN: I mean, I... Evan's been through a lot in his life. You know, he's a wonderful, optimistic magnetic person, but he's had some real social struggles and... You know, he's burdened with so much as a person with ASD. I mean, carrying around the extra burden of, you know, worrying about further stigmatisation of people with autism, worried about, you know, other things in his life, employment and relationships and also carrying around the burden of letting a conversation go cold. I mean, it's a lot, but we've had a lot of discussions about it. This isn't Evans' fault. Not responding to somebody on Facebook shouldn't lead to the worst mass attack Toronto has ever seen. Right? And Evan, I'll say it again. This isn't your fault.

EVAN MEAD: That means a lot to me.

RB: Ellen, you asked Evan what he would say to his old friend, who was the killer and Evan, you recorded something very powerful. We're going to close by listening to that. But first, I just want to thank you both for being a part of this discussion, and it was really good to talk to you. Thank you.

EVAN MEAD: Thank you very much for having us, Robyn.

RB: Okay, let's take a listen.

[SOUNDCLIP from Podcast: I'm making this video because I'm honestly a little frustrated I've never really thought about if I were to write a letter to a mass murderer or any criminal or any terrorist. What I would say to them cause there truly are no words. I'm having trouble finding them. Alek, do you understand the damage you've done on this, to the spirit of this country, to the spirit of people on the autism spectrum who are now terrified of being stigmatised because of what you did? There is a child who is an orphan because you killed his mom and you also killed friends. You killed mothers, daughters, wives, sons. Do you comprehend that? What happened, like what happened Alek? Because right now, a lot of people hate you. And part of me hates you too.]

RB: That was Evan Mead. He's a contributing producer to the new CBC podcast, Boys Like Me. Ellen Chloe Bateman is the host. You can find it on the CBC Listen app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favourite podcast app.

[Music: Upbeat guitar instrumental]

The mailbox

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan, and you're listening to The Current, as we spoke about earlier, British Columbia is still reeling from historic flooding. Here on The Current you've heard accounts of animal rescues, community helpers, stranded truckers and travellers. And we've had plenty of mail in response to all of those stories we've been bringing you from B.C. joining me to read through some of your correspondents is senior producer Karin Marley. Good morning, Karin.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. So unsurprisingly, we've had a lot of people from B.C. writing in to tell us more about the situation that they're coping with there. Alison Beck is in Duncan, B.C., on Vancouver Island. And she wrote: "Sinkholes were popping up here and there without warning signs issued and the Trans-Canada Highway was so flooded the other morning that there was a duck swimming in the right hand lane. Compared to the interior we have it easy, but we are totally dependent on the ferry for supplies and they are not known for their dependency. Beautiful B.C. It is not.

RB: It was not just British Columbians writing in John Struggnle is in Jasper, Alberta. And he says: "In the last 18 months, I've seen record breaking rain on my wedding day on July 1st, 2020. I've seen the lowest recorded temperature in January of this year and the highest heat during that wave in July. The smoke is getting worse year over year from fires everywhere around us, and we just sit like ducks waiting for natural disasters here in our own valley town".

KARIN MARLEY: Like ducks on a highway. Joanne Ross in Nanaimo, B.C., says she foresees a future where waterfront housing is a lot less popular than it is now, she writes. "There are areas that should just not be used for housing. Living near water, whether it be a river, lake or ocean, is probably not wise, given the pressures climate change will bring. I look back to the measures that were put in place after Hurricane Hazel. Back in the 1950s, the local Toronto government stepped in. The area around the Humber River was turned into a green belt and the properties that had been there were bought out. So much work needs to be done to shore up or replace infrastructure, and this will require no doubt tax increases".

RB: This next letter is from Marnie Ross in Lansdowne, Ontario, who writes: "Man-made infrastructure has got us into this problem and won't get us out. Flooding and drought are caused not only by weather events, but by draining of land for farms and cities, roads and other manmade infrastructure. All that hardened soil and cement. We need to rethink and conserve soil, marshes and swamps. We have to work with nature to allow our world to heal".

KARIN MARLEY: Marnie, be sure to keep listening in the days ahead because we're going to be talking about that very issue with Ed Struzick. He has a new book out and it is called 'Swamplands - tundra beavers, quaking bogs and the improbable world of peat'.

RB: Finally, you might have heard our intrepid producer Ben Jamieson last week he was in Abbotsford talking to people about trying to rescue animals there. Take a listen to this.

[SOUNDCLIP: people trying to encourage a cat to come to them]

RB: Well, that was a cat rescue and luckily a complete success. We also heard about some cow rescues.

KARIN MARLEY: Mm precarious cow rescues on boats. T.J. Moon on Twitter, said "Such great in both heartwarming and heartbreaking coverage. I partially grew up on a farm and cows are hilariously stubborn, also trying to transport cats? I can't even. Seeing such good, kind humans showing up to help during this climate crisis sure helps with climate anxiety.

RB: Now I'm just picturing a cow in a boat, hopefully not a canoe.

KARIN MARLEY: It doesn't sound that much bigger than a canoe. Oh, dear.

RB: Oh, boy. All right. Thanks very much, Karin, and thanks ever so much to all of you who wrote in. Please continue to do so. The email address is Thecurrent@CBC.ca or on Twitter, you can reach the team @thecurrentcbc. That's The Current for this Wednesday. Stay tuned to Radio One. Q is coming up next. And if it was heartwarming to hear that cat rescue, just wait until you hear about the horses and cows rescued from flooding in B.C.'s interior. Matt Galloway is hosting the show from there tomorrow and Friday, we'll leave you with a preview of what you'll hear. This is Kelly Kennedy at her Kamloops Ranch and Rescue Centre. I'm Robyn Bresnahan. Thank you for your company over the last three days. And thank you for listening to The Current.

KELLY KENNEDY: They were absolutely trapped, the hosts and all their properties in the river, but he wouldn't leave the animals. They had nine puppies, two big dogs, a bunch of cats and three horses. So it was decided that there was absolutely no way that these animals could be rescued because you can't walk them out because of the road, it's right down to the river and its cliff behind them. So there was no way. So I decided I just thought, Well, why can't we air-vac them out?

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that mean?

KK: Get a helicopter and lift the animals out of there. So that's what we did.

MG: What was it like when the helicopter came right here to pick you up?

KK: It was a whole different thing. He just lands right there in the field and we take off and look at all the devastation. I would never have expected that we would be airlifting animals out, and there's people with jet skis pulling cows out of dairy barns. There's people with chickens on their kayaks and, you know, it's very tragic. We had so much loss this summer and so many people lost their homes, lost everything. We had five fires bang all in, every area. I was in every single fire of the summer, and the losses are just enormous. So that's what happens. People get displaced, they get scared and they can't look after their animals. They're worried about how to feed themselves. So we come in and we look after them. That fire this summer that I rescued all these animals from was like, that whole valley is burned out. And now the flood has taken out, the river has taken out everything. And I don't know what else you could do to protect from a firestorm when it's coming through like that, or how do you protect from a flood that takes out the whole highway? I mean, you just can't, they can't get a break.

[Music: Theme]

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