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The Current Transcript for November 29, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Everybody just came together looking for shovels, chainsaws, tow ropes, whatever you could find, whatever we had in our trucks just to go running up the hill once it had stopped to try and get these people out.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: It's all hands on deck in B.C. as residents deal with the aftermath of last week's floods, mudslides, evacuations and impassable highways. But amid the chaos community neighbours helping neighbours, strangers helping strangers in half an hour, we'll speak to some of the helpers stepping up in a time of need. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

The problem with reconciliation is that you're trying to do the impossible. You're trying to reconcile the pre-existing rights of indigenous people to their land with a lie.

RB: For Bruce McIvor, that lie is that it's OK colonising. Governments just showed up, planted a flag and took control of indigenous lands. A conversation with one of Canada's most prominent indigenous lawyers about his frustrations with reconciliation and what he sees as a way out of the impasse. That's coming up in an hour, but we start this morning with COVID shots for the pre-teen set. I'm Robyn Bresnahan sitting in for Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Experts answer your questions about kids and COVID-19 vaccines

Guests: Dr. Supriya Sharma, Dr. Zainab aBdurrahman

RB: The first COVID 19 vaccines for children have arrived in Canada. Last night, a shipment from Pfizer landed in Hamilton, Ontario. The vaccine for five to 11 year olds was approved by Health Canada on Friday, marking a major milestone in this country's vaccination effort. But parents and kids still have questions with us to help answer. Some of them are two doctors. First up, Dr. Supriya Sharma, she is the chief medical adviser at Health Canada and led the review of Pfizer's submission. Dr. Sharma, good morning.

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Good morning. Thanks for having

RB: me. Now that the first doses of this paediatric vaccine are here in Canada, where do they go and how soon could kids start being vaccinated?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Sure. Will they come in? Obviously, they're these. These vaccines are manufactured in the United States, so they come into Canada. Then they're inspected and then they are broken down into the amounts that go out to all the provinces and territories. So the first shipment arrived last evening, and they're already starting to go through them and started to. They'll start moving out to provinces and territories this week. And we expect the full shipment, so the 2.9 million doses that we're expecting to come in by the end of this week.

RB: And in terms of when kids could start getting needles in arms, are you thinking even by the end of this week?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Yeah, I mean, some of the provinces have already started to do pre-booking for appointments, and I know some of them have already said maybe at the end of this week that they'll start putting having the first first vaccinations.

RB: You've spent a lot of time reviewing the data from Pfizer. What gives you confidence that this vaccine is safe and effective for kids aged five to 11?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Well, I mean, that's really the basis of the authorisation. We would only authorise a vaccine or any medication for that matter in Canada if we felt that it met the standards for safety, efficacy and quality and that the benefits overall outweighed the risk. So what we've done is that we have dedicated teams that look at all the vaccine submissions and for this one, for Pfizer, it builds upon all the information that we had from the tens of thousands of people that participated in clinical trials in adults and older children, as well as the billions of doses that have been administered around the world. But what we looked at for the five to 11 is a few things. One is that the first part of this study was to find the right dose, and this dose is a bit smaller than it is for older kids. And for adults, it's about a third of the dose. And then we look to see if the immune response that that was triggered was was the same or even better than it was in adults. And we wanted to make sure that there weren't safety issues in that immediate period. And so all of the studies, there were over 4000 children in the studies that we looked at, and it showed that the vaccine provided a very good immune response. There were no serious side effects that we're seeing and then we'll continue to monitor those, those kids as we go forward.

RB: And what do you mean by that? A very good response, can you clarify?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: So basically, the immune response was the same as we saw in older kids. So in 16 to 25 year olds in adults, it gave it a good antibody response. And as we said, it's a lower dose. So that's what we were looking for. Does that lower dose give you the same response? And you know, is there are we have to make sure that there's no major side effects that come up.

RB: And when you say the benefits outweigh the risks. What do you mean by that?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Well, you know, you really have to take a look at what's happening with COVID 19. And so the benefits of the vaccine is to prevent serious illness. In the case of COVID 19, it's also to prevent something like the called long COVID. So those symptoms that last longer than three months. As well as in children, there's a kind of an interesting or peculiar thing that happens when it's called multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children, and that can be very serious as well. So we look at that, you know, does it prevent serious illness? And then the other benefits of vaccination is that it decreases transmission to other people as well. And what we know about COVID 19 now in Canada is that the group of five to 11 year olds is actually the highest rates of cases right now. So five to 11 year olds, or about seven percent of the population, we're seeing about 20 percent of the cases in that group. So basically what we're looking at is does the vaccine give you a good immune response to prevent that illness, prevent, you know, decrease that transmission and making sure that there's no safety issues on the other side. So its risks and benefits of getting the vaccination versus the risks and benefits of not getting vaccinated?

RB: Well, that leads quite well into our first question that we received from a parent. So I'm hoping you can help with this one.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi, my name is Sebastian, and I'm from Montreal. I have twin five year old girls and young Celestia that I'm looking forward to vaccinate, but I wanted to know with two million kids, five to 11 having received the Pfizer vaccine in the U.S.. What side effects have been observed and with what incidence? And as a bonus question, could there be any bias in the data by virtue of the kids being more stoic or unable to verbalise their pain or discomfort? Thank you.

RB: Dr. Sharma, how would you answer that one from Sebastian?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Right? Well, that's a really good question. And the first thing is that it's actually closer. It's almost three million doses that were administered in the United States. Already they were they had about 10 percent of the five to 11 year olds that got their vaccinations in the first 10 days after the authorisation. And so far, they have not seen any unusual side effects. We work very closely with our other international counterparts and stay in close contact with their colleagues at the U.S. FDA. And so we'll continue to monitor those kids and get that information. But so far, there hasn't been any unusual side effects seen in the almost three million children that have gotten their first doses. And then the second part is a really good question because, you know, when you have younger children, that's right, they don't necessarily report things or complain in the same way. But in the clinical trials, there's different ways of monitoring that. So obviously there's they actually have like a diary that the parents fill out their specific questions that are asked to the children. Obviously, things like if there's some irritation or redness at the site of the vaccination, we can see that. So it is more challenging in younger kids to get those symptoms. But the trials are designed in that way to make sure that that's monitored. And what we're saying is that for any vaccine, it's important to continue to ask those questions, you know, ask the children how they're feeling to make sure that if there's anything that comes out now, the likelihood that something will come up is very, very low. So you don't want to scare people, but it is something that's important to to keep an eye on.

RB: I think a lot of parents have that question because, of course, with the AstraZeneca vaccine, Health Canada approved it and then when it was given out widely, it seemed that serious clotting events were more common than previously believed, because something similar happened with Pfizer for kids, where a side effect is only detected after it is widely used.

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: I mean, it is always a possibility, but what we do know is that once the most, the highest risk of side effects is really in the first six weeks after vaccination. And you know, with AstraZeneca, that was something that came up. And the reason that it was picked up is because we have these monitoring systems in place now. With the Pfizer vaccine, there have been billions of doses that have been given and, you know, not just to children, but to adults as well. So it would be very, very unusual that a late side effect would come up that hasn't been seen anywhere else in any other population.

RB: You mentioned, Dr. Sharma, that the Pfizer paediatric vaccine, has a lower dose than the one for adults and adolescents. That's actually raising some questions from parents of older kids in that age group. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi, my name is Vanessa, and I have a question about my 10 year old daughter, who turns 11 in February. She is as tall and weighs as much as any 12 year old, and I'm curious as to why she'll get a child dose vaccine versus one that would be fit for a child her size.

Dr. Sharma, is there a reason to believe that the lower dose paediatric vaccine would be less effective for some kids?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: No. So that's that's the study. So when we're looking at vaccines, I think I think people often think about vaccines the way we think of medications where you know, you take a medication, you get a certain level in your in your bloodstream and it's affected more about by the size or the weight of the individual. Vaccines are a bit different because they can't they trigger an immune response. And we've got vaccines where we actually have exactly the same dose in babies as we do in adults with the flu vaccine is an example of that. In some cases, the doses lower. In some cases, actually the dose is higher in children than it is in, in in adults. So for this one, it really isn't effective. We don't think by the weight or the size of the child, it's really about the maturity of the immune system and how it responds. And the younger children actually have an immune system that is even stronger. So that's why they have a lower dose because they don't need that higher dose. And what we always try to do is find the dose that does what it's supposed to do and then minimises those side effects. Now, you know, it's not as if you know, as soon as you have your 11th or 12th birthday that something changes, that if it's continuous that that's the way the studies were were laid out in those age groups. And so that's why those are the age groups that it was authorised.

RB: And we have another doctor standing by to answer more questions. But I'm wondering, I'm just going to pop two you, rapid fire, if you don't mind how much time is recommended between the first and second two doses for kids.

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: So our authorisation is for three weeks between the first and second doses and the reason it's three weeks is because that's the way the clinical trials were set up. NACI, the National Advisory Committee on Immunisation looks at all the information that we know about the adult doses and an increased interval that we had in Canada. And they're recommending eight months, eight weeks between the first and second doses because you often see a better immune response with that increased interval. And it, in emerging evidence, has shown that it might decrease side effects as well. So it's basically an eight week interval. That's the recommended. But if it's a minimum of three weeks, if you for whatever reason, if you need to have the second dose and if you're at high risk, or if there's other reasons that you need to get that second dose.

RB: Of course, it's also a flu shot season right now. How long should kids wait between getting the flu shot and the COVID vaccine, or is it safe to get both at the same time?

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Well, what we know about the vaccines is that we don't think there's any safety risk giving them together. However, with any new vaccines, what we say is that we recommend at least a 14 day gap between getting a new vaccine and any other vaccine. And that's only because if a side effect does show up that it's important to be able to link it back to which vaccine it might be associated with. So it's really 14 days, but only because we want to make sure that if something comes up thatwe can figure out which vaccine we should be looking at.

RB: OK, Dr. Sharma, good of you to join us this morning. Thanks so much for your time.

DR. SUPRIYA SHARMA: Thank you. That's Dr.

RB: Supriya Sharma. She's chief medical adviser at Health Canada. We've talked about some of the questions parents have about the vaccine, but of course there are many more. So we have another guest with us this morning who can hopefully help with some answers. Dr. Zainab Abdurrahman is an allergist and clinical immunologist at McMaster Children's Hospital. She's also a member of the Black Scientists Task Force on COVID 19 Vaccination Equity. Good morning to you, doctor.

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

RB: As a physician who treats kids, how welcome is the news that the vaccines, at least some of them are here now?

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: This is very welcome news. You know, we've definitely seen that children were very much affected by COVID for a number of reasons, including not being able to attend school in the same way or have a lot of social activities. And this is another step towards getting back to normalcy. So we know that this will be very helpful for them to continue to socialise, interact with their friends and also family members. So this is very welcome and we know that they can start to do it, perhaps in that they're in a safer way. So we're adding something else to the safety to children of this age group.

RB: What would you say to a parent who received their COVID vaccinations, but is feeling a little bit more hesitant about vaccinating their child or their children, thinking, I just don't know, even though I'm supportive of this, I'm just going to wait and see. What would you say to that parent?

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: I would say that we've actually had a lot of time to wait in the interim. I think that we have seen a lot of information about the vaccines, and Dr. Sharma just went over the studies and the safety. And we specifically did not just start immunising children based on adult studies. We also waited for them to be specifically studied in the different age groups were done, you know, separately, we had the adolescents done to figure out their dosing, and now the children are done to figure out their dosing because we do know that children are not little adults. So we have had time to specifically study them and look at their immune response because they do tend to get a bigger immune response, and that's why they're able to get a lower dose. And I would say, you know, trust in the science and trust, in the fact that Health Canada is looking through everything with a fine tooth comb to make sure that it is safe but also effective and that risks are minimised. And we have also the luxury because they've been studied. We're also a little bit behind the states and so we have over about about three million people and have also been vaccinated. So, you know, you have not just the study with about 4000 children, you also have three million children who've also had it in this age group. And we're not seeing any increased safety signal. So if you're worried that with four thousand, you might have missed something that's happening about one in a million, you're seeing about three million children have received it, and we haven't seen any changes in the safety signal as well. So I think you would be comforted in the information and the fact that we have taken the time to specific specifically look at children in this age group separately from other age groups as well.

RB: OK, doctor, we have a couple of parent questions for you. Just take a listen to the first one.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi, I'm Wendy, and my question is this, if the symptoms for children with COVID 19 are generally mild? Why do you feel the need to vaccinate them?

RB: How would you answer Wendy's question?

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: Well, I think that it's important to realise that and it's not just that we are preventing death. I know a lot of people always say, well, the death rate in children isn't very high. You know, it's high enough to be a concern that's higher than others. Other common diseases that are in our society and we do know that children can get more severe COVID. And we know that children who get COVID, whether it's mild or it's more severe, we do know that they're still at risk of getting long COVID, as we call it, where they have symptoms beyond three months. So this has been seen in one to four out of every 100 children that get COVID, regardless of whether it is mild or too severe. So they are still at risk of having these issues moving forward. Other things to consider is that they're at risk of having some of the severe disease. Like we talked about earlier, this MIS-C, which is a very severe form of it, where it affects multiple organ systems. So there isn't a way to kind of say one child is more at risk of some of these complications than the other. That, unfortunately, is not been the case. So we do know that it's important to protect them. And vaccination is, I would say, a group effort. We know that it's important to vaccinate all the different levels so that we can go back to our society being altogether.

RB: We also have a question from Sinead, who was asking about myocarditis and pericarditis inflammation of the heart in the lining of the heart. We saw higher rates of that amongst some teenagers and young men after getting the vaccine. What do we know about the risk to the younger age group?

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: So with this, we actually did look through the study and there were no cases in the study as myocarditis or pericarditis. We do know this can happen more commonly in some of the older children. Specifically, we thought more in 12 to 29 specifically really that 16 to 24, and there were no cases associated with the study also in the past few weeks, with the United States rolling it out. We haven't seen any kind of increase in the incidence looking at it there. We actually see a bit lower than we see in those in the older population. And they're also getting a lower dose where we're not sure if that actually is also more protective. But in general, the younger kids actually are less likely to have myocarditis, pericarditis and this kind of situation and we have not seen it coming up in the studies or in the three million who already received the doses.

RB: Doctor, you're a part of the Black Scientists Task Force, and I know that you've been doing lots of Q&A is in the community to talk about vaccines address hesitancy that might be out there. What else have you been hearing that you think needs to be addressed?

DR. ZAINAB ABDURRAHMAN: I think that when we're talking about some of the younger children, we have to remember that some of that concerns can be different. You know, we're talking about a population that's a little hesitant about needles in general. So, you know, people are a bit worried about going to a large vaccination centre where you're, you know, people are getting back many vaccines. And how this might affect their child being more scared. So there's those elements of, you know, trying to find ways to comfort a child and to navigate such a system without having their child be more concerned. And I think a lot of people would have been worried about the safety. You know, they want to be sure that they're making the right decision. And as much as they know, a lot of people earlier on really wanted the vaccines for children, we had to wait until the studies were done. So that also, I think, helps. And with people who are concerned that is this the right is at the right dose, is that the right response is that the right population? So we have waited for these reasons. So I think that that is also helpful. We're not just extrapolating from adult studies, we've really studied it in the population that we're giving out. And I think the other aspect of it is really for when we talk to a lot of different groups of parents is, you know, is this being done at the right time in terms of, you know, often people think that vaccines should take much longer to be to come out. And I think, you know, when you have an engaged audience with a pandemic, we are working on things quite quickly in terms of putting all the resources together. Sometimes it takes longer to develop a vaccine because it may be something more seasonal, or maybe something that goes away and you can only study at certain times.

RB: And that's and that's absolutely something that we're going to continue to talk about, too. Is that concerned that this has to happen very quickly and yet, you know, Health Canada saying that this is actually being quite studied. So, doctor, it was good of you to join us this morning. Thank you. That was Dr. Zainab Abdurrahman. She's an allergist and clinical immunologist at McMaster Children's Hospital. She's also a member of the Black Scientists Task Force on Vaccine Equity. Coming up after the news, as B.C. deals with the aftermath of torrential rains and flooding stories of the helpers.

When a premature baby and his family were stranded in B.C. flooding, local moms rushed to help

Guests: Kaytlin Toews, Cash Groeneveld, Baljit Lally, Kevin Estrada

RB: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan, and you're listening to The Current.

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RB: Still to come for decades, Bruce McIver has been on the front lines of many of the biggest legal battles over indigenous rights in Canada. And while some might see steps towards reconciliation in the battles he has won. Bruce McIvor says the reconciliation project, as it stands now, is failing indigenous people. His ideas on how to fix it in just under half an hour. But first, British Columbians pitching in with helping hands. It's been one week since record breaking rainfall triggered chaos across southern B.C.. At least four people died in a mudslide on a mountain road. Major highways were cut off by flooding and some entire communities are still under water. The recovery is expected to take months. But amid all the destruction, there have been moments of profound humanity. This half hour, we're going to bring you some of those stories and we'll start with a new mom. Kaytlin Toews was on her way home from the hospital's newborn intensive care unit with her family when she got stuck on the highway in the torrential rain. She's now back at home in Chilliwack after an unexpected week at a motel in Langley. Caitlin, good morning.

KAYTLIN TOEWS: Good morning.

RB: First off, many congratulations on your new baby. His name is Jackson. How old is he today?

KAYTLIN TOEWS: We're 42 days today,

RB: and Jackson was quite premature. How premature was he?

KAYTLIN TOEWS: I assume he was actually born at 31 and two days. Yeah. And you got to come home at 36. We're not home. We got to go to the motel 36 weeks.

RB: Tell us about that trip home. You and your family were on the way in your car from the hospital in Surrey with Jackson. The rain struck. Just describe what happened.

KAYTLIN TOEWS: Oh, gosh, okay, so yeah, we're just about actually we were just passing through Abbotsford, so we're on the homestretch like twenty five minutes usually. And the line of traffic was tremendous. So I looked at maps to see how long it was going to get home. And it was saying over an hour and a half, I mean, my boyfriend got me and like, What the heck, like this is usually a 15 20 minute drive. What is going on? So we were sitting there for almost an hour and a half before tweets started coming up the middle of the highway behind us on the intercom thing, like they were turning people around because we weren't getting through because of the floods. So then we sat there for literally almost another 45 minutes as they were turning all the traffic around from the beginning to get turning around and going back. And then, of course, once we got [unintelligible], all the vehicles that were ahead of us had got all the hotel. So that was so stressful being in Abbotsford, then having no hotels, already being stranded for over two hours, little man getting cranky and having nothing for him.

RB: You had one diaper bag and I think one diaper in it, correct?

KAYTLIN TOEWS: That is correct, that we had taken from just the [unintelliglbe] unit when we left, that and the pack of wipes that they had left from using in his little incubator, expecting, yeah, just to get home by the time we needed to change or eat. And that did not happen.

RB: And you arrived at Abbotsford and you went to a resource centre, and that's where you met our next guest. Kaytlin, I'd like to bring in that person into the conversation. Her name is Cash Groeneveld. Hi, Cash.

CASH GROENEVELD: Hi. Good morning.

RB: Hi, good morning. You're a pretty new mom as well. Can you tell me about your first encounter with Caitlin and Baby Jackson and what you what you felt when you first saw them at the Resource Centre?

CASH GROENEVELD: Yeah. So I was just at the resource centre, dropping off some supplies. You know, which initially we had been told, oh, you know, we're not accepting donations at this time, and I just kind of walked in to ask, Oh, you know, where? Where is accepting donations? And you know, the there was a lady there, the coordinator and her eyes just lit up and she saw my daughter and she says, You know, we have a new mom in here, too, and her baby is just fresh, you know, can't be more than a couple of days old. And and you know, as a new mom, your first thought is like, you know, picturing yourself in that situation. And I had kind of asked, Oh, if there's anything that she needs right now? And of course, with security and just confidentiality in that way, she kind of had said, unfortunately not, she's inside. I can't really connect you to her. And I said, it's understandable, not a problem. So I was just kind of standing there waiting for them. They had were gathering some volunteers to come and collect the supplies that I brought to drop off. And there's this other woman comes walking out and she sees my daughter and she goes, Oh, you know, she's so cute. And I said, Oh, thank you. She's six months old and she says, You know, I have my son in here and he's, you know, 30 some odd days old and I thought, Oh, this is just perfect. I was hoping to meet you. So it just kind of felt a little bit like it, like Kaytlin and I were somehow meant to connect in that way.

RB: Well, then you really rallied, Cash. I mean, what did you do to get some supplies for Kaytlin?

CASH GROENEVELD: Yeah. Well, you know, Caitlin's situation in particular felt very personal to me as a as a first time mom myself and a new mom. And of course, my nephew was also born at 31 weeks. So I've seen firsthand, you know, the fear that comes along just, you know, without any of this, just from having a new baby and especially one that's born that young. So I kind of asked her, you know, we exchanged numbers and I asked her to send me a list of anything she needed. You know, she had mentioned to me that they were staying in a hotel that night and that she had nothing for her son and her son was going to probably wind up sleeping in the drawer of a dresser in the hotel room there. And I just thought, Oh, you know, forgive me, that's small. We can't have that. And so I'm a member of a couple Facebook groups just, you know, local moms helping moms. And all I had really done was I made a post saying, I'm in contact with a new mom here. She's stuck in Abbotsford for the time being. And she has nothing. Does anybody have anything that they can give? She's willing to accept anything at this point. And just the outreach of women was was incredible. You know, I had probably 40 women message me in the first hour and a half of that post being up, offering everything from diapers to car seats to, you know, one woman even reached out and said, You know, I might have a chartered flight home for her.

RB: Wow.

CASH GROENEVELD: So yeah.

RB: Well, Kaytlin, why don't I let you just talk to cash directly? Is there anything that you want to say to her about what that help meant?

KAYTLIN TOEWS: I just want to say thank you again, cash and exactly how much stress you took. From exactly being in the hotel, you meet, being in the hotel, if you like cold with everything, you brought in how much we then had.

RB: It's amazing, I mean, Kaytlin Cash said it felt like you two were meant to meet. How do you feel about the situation?

KAYTLIN TOEWS: It really was, and I cannot wait till the highway does open up so we can let our little ones meet and go for coffee and just, yeah, reconnect again. Not through just the chaos.

RB: Out of the chaos comes friendship. What a lovely story. Thank you so much for getting up early and talking to us this morning.

KAYTLIN TOEWS: Yes, of course.

CASH GROENEVELD: Thank you for having me.

RB: That was Kaytlin Towes and she was talking to us from her home in Chilliwack with her new baby, Jackson and Cash Groeneveld was in Abbotsford. The time now, of course, is 14 minutes past the hour.

Speaker 4: [sc]

VOICE 1: I'm from Khalsa Aid, Vancouver team hide and we were- this is Kalis. Hi.

VOICE 2: Hello? How are you?

VOICE 1: Hi, how are you? It's going good. Yeah.

VOICE 2: All right. Oh yes, I'm fine. Thank you so much for providing food. Yes, that's right. You guys are waiting here.

VOICE 1: We are gonna start unloading it.

VOICE 2: Yeah, we can help.

RB: Was there some sounds from Khalsa Aid Canada and their team in Metro Vancouver over the last week? The local chapter of the International Aid Group has been delivering food to those in need throughout the region. This is called Seva, a fundamental tenant of Sikhism, often translated as selfless service. Baljit Lally is the Lower Mainland Coordinator for Khalsa Aid Canada. She's been overseeing those efforts and is on the line now. Good morning, Baljit.

BALJIT LALLY: Good morning, Robyn. How are you?

RB: Very well, thanks. Can you tell us what kind of help you've been coordinating over the last few days?

BALJIT LALLY: Yeah, most definitely for us, it was a little bit of a quiet weekend. We've been trying to support our efforts in Cologne, in Kamloops, Tesla's supply chain. Things are starting to run low up there, but the past week has been hectic, to say the least. With food drop off, you know, arranging helicopter flights to help stranded truckers and hope it's been. It's been super busy for us and also supporting migrant seasonal farm workers outside and within the Fraser Valley.

RB: And what specifically have you been giving to those migrant seasonal farm workers?

BALJIT LALLY: Yeah, so it's been mainly food supplies, traditional food supplies. Most of the farmworkers are from Latin America, and so we try to go out and purchase foods that they're accustomed to.

RB: Hmm. I understand you're also getting food to truck drivers who have been stuck in hope. Something like 300 meals. What have you been making?

BALJIT LALLY: So actually, it wasn't physically us, Sikh temples have community kitchens in their basement and we just reached out to a few. One responded back on the bus stop here in Vancouver and we just said, Can you help us make 300 or up to 400 meals? And they said yes to their kitchen was fully stocked, and they just said, Let us know what time you need it. Just bring Tupperware. And that's what happened. So the call went out at 6:00 p.m. and food was ready before 9:00 a.m. So it's been a community effort for us.

RB: And how did you do the delivery of those meals? Because highways, of course, were still very much impacted. Some of them were closed. How did you get the food to the truck drivers?

BALJIT LALLY: So we actually actually contacted London Air services, a local airline that's actually owned by the owner of London drugs. And I called them and they were very accommodating, they said we already have a scheduled flight going out to hope actually a few scheduled flights going on to Hope Airport. And luckily, the stranded truck drivers were very close to the airport and we loaded up a noon flight and they were super generous to us. They offered the flight to us at no cost. And within a half an hour, we got pictures of the truckers offloading the helicopter with scoot.

RB: How have you managed to speak to any of the people who you have helped? I mean, do you know what kind of reaction this has elicited?

BALJIT LALLY: Just just one of the stranded truck drivers who, you know, was part of organising support on the other end, and that's it, you know, it's part of selfless service they have is just to go out and support. And if we're lucky, we get to meet the people on the other end. If not, then we just continued to do it.

RB: What does this work mean to you personally? Why do you do it?

BALJIT LALLY: I'm. You know it, um, it feeds my soul. I feel very privileged to be part of an organisation that gives me the ability to help our community as a whole. It came into a place in my life, when I was feeling quite empty, and, you know, I can say that personally save all really saved me from a dark place in my life. And then that's the driving factor for me. I'm willing to stay up late night to wake up early in the morning to do it because I'm super passionate about it and I keep thinking back on how much they help me to help others.

RB: It is that in a way inspired by somebody who helped you when you were in that dark place.

BALJIT LALLY: Um, no, not really, I think. You know, when you find something. It just happened just the perfect time. I think it was just meant to be. I was in a dark place and this position in Khalsa Aid was just there at the right time.

RB: Hmm. When you say this word that helping other people feeds your soul. Expand on that a little bit. What do you mean by that?

BALJIT LALLY: Just knowing that, you know, I have the capacity to to engage, to to move and to have that responsibility and that trust from our my director, our Canadian director to help. It's just it's super liberating for me that I, as you know, as a female can do it. And really, there's nothing standing in the way, except my own fear. And fear just kind of disappears when you know there's people on the other end that need help.

RB: If one of those drivers is listening right now, who has received some of the meals that that you helped coordinate, what do you want them to know?

BALJIT LALLY: That myself personally and Khalsa Aid feel privileged to help.

RB: Thank you for your time this morning in the work that you've been doing, it was really good to talk to you.

BALJIT LALLY: Thank you so much, Robyn.

RB: That's Baljit Lally, she is the Lower Mainland coordinator for Khalsa Aid Canada. Well, as we have been hearing, floods have really done some terrible damage to roads and to rail routes as well. Many communities have been cut off supplies running low, in some cases running out. So local fishing guides have banded together to do supply runs to communities along the Fraser River. Kevin Estrada is a director with the Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association, and we've reached him this morning in Chilliwack. Good morning, Kevin.

KEVIN ESTRADA: Thanks for having me.

RB: It's a pleasure to have you. How busy were you over the weekend?

KEVIN ESTRADA: Oh, we've been non-stop since this started, so it's been uh, it's been pretty interesting, it's been pretty emotional for a lot of people and it's it's been great to see the community come together.

RB: Tell us about what you have been delivering and you and your members in boats along the along the Fraser River.

KEVIN ESTRADA: Yeah, well, the first day that it happened, um, shortly after, I think in second or third day we had, we had many boats, guide association members and also non-members, just anglers at large evacuate people out of hope. And so we we evacuated over 100 people out of hope, drove about an hour downriver. We displaced them through Chilliwack and then also all the way down the mission. And then from there, you know, every day and stuff in issues like this. Things change, right? And so the next day we had tellus, donate a whole bunch of food and supplies to First Nations. And so then we had our boats, you know, deliver those to the isolated communities because the highways were still shut down. And then from there, it just started to snowball. And now we're doing everything that, you know, we probably will know now after this that we should have set up as an emergency response. But we're kind of we're kind of going it out of our own and making sure that everything that needs to get done is getting done. And that's it's a wide, wide array of tasks that we're doing.

RB: When you put out that initial call to some of your fellow guides, what was the response like?

KEVIN ESTRADA: Well, the guys that have the boats that are ready to go, everybody was was jumped on board. I mean, there's no question, right? You know, we're not, some of our members are firemen, but I say, we're not firemen, we're not RCMP. We're experts on the water and we have a fleet of boats of all different sizes to get into different areas in different situations, right? So, they sprung into action and this was something we've never experienced in our lifetime. And we've been for lack of a better word. We've been running two command centres myself out of Chilliwack and then another one of our members doing work is running it in the hope to Yale area and recording a massive group text very well organised. We have a morning briefing debrief at night. We're running maps and computer screens to make sure we know exactly where we're going. And it's it's been pretty impressive how we've been able to tie it all together to help the community.

RB: You mentioned, Kevin, that some of the communities are totally isolated, that they don't have access to supplies right now. What are what is the interaction with them being like? I mean, when you arrive at one of these communities with a boatload of supplies, what kind of reaction have you had?

KEVIN ESTRADA: Yeah, no. It's it's obviously emotional, right? I mean, not only just bringing the food and the supplies, but but also the people that were entrapped in hope, right, for several days, a couple of days. And you had people sleeping in their cars, hopes the small town. There's not a lot of accommodations. People were taken. We're taking families into their homes, but some are sleeping in their cars with young kids, right? And so, you know, we were we were bringing them out of there and they were very, very helpful. We- it's pretty wild, right? You go through this and you see the chinks in the armour with with government and locals that we got to fix, you know, post this for something down the road. And we're bringing people to cancer treatments. We're delivering LifeLabs samples. It's really, truly incredible to see what we're able to do. And I think a coordinating effort on I mean, you've got to remember all these guys are self-employed people, right? So you've they're trained to think on their feet and to adapt to situations. So when you get a bunch of people together like this, it's it's pretty powerful tool, right? So. Yeah, it's been emotional to answer your question. It's no doubt. And and we're we're happy to do it and we're just every day is a new challenge that we're we're trying to coordinate.

RB: Do you have a story you could share with us to kind of illustrate that emotion?

KEVIN ESTRADA: Well, there's quite a few who you know, it's we you know, we run in a lot of social media, right, not only through each individual guiding companies connections and their followers, but through our guide association. And so we're getting lots of. Incredible amount of feedback, right? I mean, obviously, you know, I'm talking to you, but there's also been lots of media. We've had three national papers written about us and it's just been, it's been pretty wild. We had actually members of Andrew Ladd, a professional hockey player who I'm friends with and played hockey with. His family was, relatives, were trapped in Hope and we had brought him out. And the two young girls were with their grandparents and away from their parents for a few days, and we got them from Hope all the way down to Mission. And by standard was videoing, you know, sort of the interview is when they got together and the interaction and, you know, it's pretty heartfelt. I mean, as an adult, you're just trying to get through day to day. And you know, most likely, that you're going to get home and and to see these two kids jump into their parents arms just kind of encapsulated everything that's been going on here and how it doesn't matter where you come from, who you are, how much money you have, what your job is, what your education is. This is survival and people helping at the highest level. And in British Columbia down here, we haven't had a natural disaster like this before. And so this is for us. This is very good, for our community and to watch people come together.

RB: I can imagine that it's been a lot of adrenaline that you know you're running on this energy. At what point do you maybe need to reach out through? The helpers need to get help?

KEVIN ESTRADA: Well, I don't think we're there yet. I mean, we might at some point for sure. But at this point, it's kind of, you know, we've got to build their community back together, right? And and I'm not so sure the general public understands how bad this to much flats are still. I mean, we're working on the food supply chains those are rectified themselves for we're working on the fuel situation that seems to be coming around. We're supposed to be finally getting fuel for, you know, we've been doing this all on our own right and not for profit. We don't have funds. And so we've been the guys have been paying for their own fuel this last week and we started some donations for some of those things are starting to come together. But but each day we got to just keep going because we're the ones there. It's not like you can depend on other avenues within the government and within the system, so to speak, that they're going to take care of it.

RB: You're doing it.

KEVIN ESTRADA: Yeah, the government doesn't have a fleet of boats to to know where they're navigating, and they don't have expert drivers to go what they've got to do. So right now, we're we're doing everything we can and we're going to continue to do that. And then when this is all said and done, then we'll be able to have a drink and relax.

RB: Good. I hope that drink and relax come soon, Kevin. Good to talk to you. Thank you.

KEVIN ESTRADA: Thanks for having me, Robyn.

RB: Kevin Estrada, a project director with the Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association. I'm Robyn Bresnahan and you are listening to The Current.

There's deep frustration between rhetoric and reality of reconciliation, says Indigenous lawyer Bruce McIvor

Guest: Bruce McIvor

RB: I'm Robyn Bresnahan in for Matt Galloway, and you are listening to The Current decolonisation is a messy business. That's why it's a road, not a moment in time. Those are the words of Bruce McIver, one of the most prominent names in Canadian indigenous legal circles. And it's a road he's been on for a while now. For the past two decades, he's been working with First Nations clients and defending their legal rights. But he says sometimes that road starts to feel more like a dead end. Bruce McIvor writes about his own frustration at the lack of progress on reconciliation and indigenous rights in a new book called Standoff, Why Reconciliation Fails Indigenous People and How to Fix It. Bruce McIvor, Good morning.

BRUCE MCIVOR: Morning. Thank you very much.

RB: What word would you use to sum up how you're feeling about reconciliation right about now?

BRUCE MCIVOR: I think frustration sums it up, and of course, it's not just me, it's most of my clients across the country, a deep level of frustration with the gap between the rhetoric of reconciliation and the reality on the ground and something that they experience on a day to day basis.

RB: And that's what it feels like, is rhetoric?

BRUCE MCIVOR: It's rhetoric, unfortunately, to a large extent, and it's the gap between the reality. There are times when there are important steps forward when those occur. My experience is they're driven by indigenous people themselves. Government comes along often unwillingly. But there are definite successes. We had one here in B.C. just this week. I want to give a huge shout out to all the people who voted for the indigenous lawyers to become benchers of the Law Society of B.C., and that was a great example of it not being done by government, but its indigenous people themselves stepping forward and making a real concerted effort to see real change.

RB: And how does that fit in to the notion of reconciliation?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Well, the problem with reconciliation, there are a lot of them. But the core problem that I see is that the way it's been framed by the courts in Canada is that you're trying to do the impossible. You're trying to reconcile a right, which is the pre-existing rights of indigenous people, to their land with a lie and the lie. And it's a hard one for a lot of Canadians. Non-Indigenous Canadians to hear is the colonising governments can just show up, plant a flag and take control over indigenous lands and displace indigenous laws and that is irreconcilable, that right with that lie. And as long as that's what reconciliation means, if that's what the courts say, it means, if that's what governments think it means, I don't think we have much of a chance of being successful.

RB: I want to play you a clip. This is from Mark Miller, who is the new minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations. He had a stint at indigenous services. Here's what he said when he was asked about his priorities in his new post.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, this relationship started with land. The relationship has been broken because of land land theft, and it's time to give land back. And that's just the reality of it. It's easily said it's more difficult to be done, and I hope and I think I'm being probably mildly optimistic, but I think we've built a measure of trust that I think I can take into this department and start moving quickly on things that one shouldn't have happened in the first place. And in order to fix them, need to move a whole heck of a lot quicker.

RB: Bruce McIvor, what's your reaction to what Mark Miller had to say there?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Well, I I have a lot of respect for Minister Miller. I think he is going to play an effective role. I think his heart's in the right place and he wants to do the best policy possible. I disagree, though, that it's a difficult thing to do. Glenn Beck. I don't think it's as difficult as governments think. There are definite impediments there. Part of it is that the provincial governments need to be onside. It's not just a matter for the federal government, and you see this disconnect across the country between provincial policies and federal policies. And a perfect example is the embarrassing statement that came out of New Brunswick a few weeks ago that they were going to prevent governmental officials from doing land acknowledgement. I think that was a total embarrassment for New Brunswick and a good sign of how out of touch certain provinces are and the disconnect between federal government policies and provincial policies. And it's the provinces that need to step up to a large degree because they assert control over those indigenous lands if lands are going to come back. The provincial governments need to be involved

RB: with regards to those land. Acknowledgements Though correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a line in your book that you you basically say there they've become so meaningless?

BRUCE MCIVOR: They have they can mean something, but they can become a really good example of what I see as reconciliation being about making indigenous, not non-Indigenous people feel good. If that's what it's about, my statement for non-Indigenous people is if it's making you feel good, you're probably doing it wrong, and those land acknowledgement can be a good example. They're hard to do in a meaningful way, but I think they can be important. But they can't be just an acknowledgement. They have to be a check in on what's being done. I'm all about deliverables. I don't want just the rhetoric. I don't want just empty apologies. But what's being done if you use the land acknowledgements to say in the last six months, this is what we've done to give the land back. This is what the plan is for the next six months, and we'll be checking back in in six months to see if we were successful and if if we weren't. Why not? That's the kind of loud acknowledgement I would like to see

RB: when Mark Miller says it's time to give land back, but then goes on to say it's easier said than done. How do you interpret that? Because you said, actually, it is fairly easy, but one might think actually there would be quite a lot standing in the way of that.

BRUCE MCIVOR: Well, the first thing to keep in mind is it seemed pretty easy for colonising governments to take control, assert control of indigenous lands. Based on Canadian law it's just a matter of showing up and planting a flag and making a bold assertion. So I think it's important to keep that in mind. And for governments now to say, well, sorry, that's what we did, and it's very complicated to unpack this. I don't have a lot of patience for that.

RB: What's one of the most egregious examples of the gap between rhetoric and reality that you have witnessed?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Well, I think we've all seen in the last year the painful real stories about the findings of indigenous children buried on the lands of former residential schools across Canada. That's not new. We've known that indigenous people have known this for years and years and years, and now for the government to say and for the Catholic Church to say, Well, maybe we should only do something serious about this. That I think is the foremost for me on the gap, the apology that was done by the federal government years ago. That's important. But if it's not followed through with actually ensuring that respect is paid to indigenous people to their children, this is something that should have been done years and years ago. And I think it's a real travesty that nothing further has been done about it for so long.

RB: Even when a politician's heart is in the right place, which you acknowledge that you felt like Mark Miller had a good heart. Do you feel that they are completely humbled by the system to change things?

BRUCE MCIVOR: One of the challenges to achieving reconciliation, you can't see me, but I'm using air quotes when I say that because there's that gap between what ministers like Minister Miller say, what the minister says and the reality of, unfortunately, the systemic racism that indigenous people are faced with on a daily basis emanating from provincial and federal governments. And that really needs to change.

RB: And you have seen that racism firsthand. I mean, you acknowledge in your book that there are a lot of public servants who do have good motivations. But yet you talk about, well, you gave an example of sitting in a hotel room one day and some people who you were going to meet later that day representing the government came and sat at the table behind you, and you were about to turn around and introduce yourself and say, hi. But then you heard them say something. Would you mind sharing that story with us?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Yeah, I'm sitting there like we often do doing this work, waiting for a meeting to begin preparing for it in a small town in northern Ontario. And the governmental officials are there, and I could hear them laughing. And I realised what they were laughing about was all the ways they were going to say no to my clients. When we met in a few minutes and they were laughing about the entire consultation process that they were leading up and how meaningless it was and they were laughing about my client's position. And that was really hard to take. It's hard to take, for me personally, but more importantly, for indigenous people and for my clients, whether they're laughing in their faces or not, they know they're not being taken seriously.

RB: How do you remain an optimist in the face of something like that?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Oh, the optimism I have and I am a real optimist comes totally from my clients. I am so honoured, so privileged to have such powerful, dynamic, principled clients if they can retain their optimism. I don't think it's very much to ask the same of me.

RB: You talked about the the systemic racism and considering that the legal system has its foundations and Canada's colonial history. How useful a tool is it for your clients to uphold their rights?

BRUCE MCIVOR: It can be very challenging engaging with clients on this because one of the things that's really important, it's indigenous people that are taking the risk when they go to court. Governments have all the advantages, not just in the resources, but governments can respond with all kinds of arguments that, if they were successful, would even further diminish indigenous rights. But they really have nothing to lose. It's like playing poker with someone who's got an unlimited amount of money. So it puts indigenous people in a difficult situation when they're trying to defend their rights in Canadian courts. I think the most interesting thing and the most important thing that's going on across the country are indigenous people that are saying we've had enough of these Canadian laws. We need to have space to exercise our own inherent indigenous laws. And that is, I think that's the future.

RB: What does that look like?

BRUCE MCIVOR: So it looks like, in fact, there's a lot of support for this in Canadian law. We've got this concept in in Canadian law called cooperative federalism, which is based basically acknowledging the fact that laws under the Canadian Constitution, there are provincial laws and federal laws, and sometimes they overlap and the provinces and the federal government need to get to the other and sort out a way that they will work together. So that's been part of Canadian history and laws in 1867. So that's not new. I think what's important is that those principles can be and should be applied to creating space for indigenous laws. The courts have been clear indigenous laws existed in this country before the colonisers arrived. The Canadian Constitution didn't wipe out that lawmaking authority. It may have been pressed now through policies and legislative solutions such as the Indian Act, but it's still there. And now it's important to take a positive step forward to acknowledge those laws exist. They need to be respected, and there needs to be space for indigenous people to exercise those laws. So we see that going on today in northern B.C. and the Wet'suwet'en stepping forward again to exercise their own laws in response to a pipeline that's being forced through their territory.

RB: How would that work in the context of - because the other argument that you make in the in the book is that there is regional representation at the Supreme Court level, but you would like to see more indigenous representation there. I mean, what do you feel would be the priority having separate indigenous laws or having more indigenous people on the benches of the Supreme Court?

BRUCE MCIVOR: I think these two things can take place in parallel, and they should. The issue around representation on the Supreme Court, I think, is a really important one, and it's one of those issues that are obviously critical. The excuses I call them excuses that I hear from the federal government for why there aren't indigenous judges on the Supreme Court, at least one indigenous justice does. They do not hold water. There's no doubt there are numerous highly qualified indigenous lawyers judges across the country that could serve and should be serving on the Supreme Court of Canada. And the last point on this is and a classic example of systemic racism. The idea that being able to operate speak French is a requirement for the Supreme Court of Canada. Again, I think that just systemic racism with our recent appointment of our newest governor general, who doesn't speak French, who is bilingual, of course, but doesn't speak French. I think that puts the lie to the argument that French needs to be a requirement to serve on the Supreme Court.

RB: First, a lot of the cases that you have worked on revolved revolve around the concept of the duty to consult. Why has there been such a sticky issue?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Well, when you're consulting, it can sound good, but the problem is it still rests on all law making decision making authority being either in the provincial or federal government. So when the duty to consult is engaged, government officials come out and all too often. Take a position. We are making a decision we intend we are contemplating this decision. Tell us what you think about it. And then go back and make a decision that's fundamentally wrong because indigenous people should have the respect from the federal and provincial governments to make their own decisions indigenous people have their own jurisdiction.

RB: What do you say to critics who argue that asking for consent for things like pipelines or mining projects, logging amounts to giving indigenous people air quotes veto power?

BRUCE MCIVOR: Yeah, I use the word veto as a barometer when I work across the country. The more I hear that word used by provincial government officials, the more sophisticated I know they are. Because veto in that sense is simply a statement being made by the government that we have all the decision making power. You don't have a veto. That means that regardless of what your position is, at the end of the day, we're going to push this through. That's what they mean when they say you don't have a veto. That's not what the court meant. Most importantly, I don't think that's what the law means. And I think we could move a lot further down the road to a meaningful conversation if government officials didn't use the word veto didn't just say we're here to make a decision, but instead said, we're here contemplating this decision. What do we need to do to get your consent? What do we need to do? And that's a very different conversation, and that would be a productive conversation across the country.

RB: I wonder if we could end by giving a little personal because you have a chapter in your book where you talk about your own indigenous identity. I wonder how you're thinking about that identity has evolved over the years.

BRUCE MCIVOR: Yeah, it's really. I have a few really personal stories in my book. I think I'm a bit unusual in that sense, or maybe in a lot of senses as a lawyer to interweave those personal stories. But I think that's the best way to connect with everyone across the country on the indigenous identity issue. I think my own story is a good example of. One. The racism that exists, that has existed throughout the country. The oppression of indigenous people, but really importantly, the different experiences of indigenous people. I'm fortunate to a large extent because I pass myself off. I can pass myself off if that's what I choose to do. I'm not visibly identifiably indigenous. And that lived experience is qualitatively different from so many of my friends, family members, clients across the country who are visibly in tension is the violence. The racism that they face on a daily basis is part of their lived reality, the lived reality of their parents, grandparents of their children. I think it's really important that everyone acknowledges that the part that I also talk about is that the law works in such a way to constrict and define indigenous and identity. And to a large extent, it's the law of the colonisers where we should be the best place to be as if this was being resolved through and through indigenous peoples laws themselves. We'd be in a lot healthier place, and the final point on that is a, I think, an excellent point that my friend New Jadmeet Singh of Sinckler made. It's not about who you claim, it's who claims you. I think that's very, very important. I don't have a lot of time for these people who I call them, that she sobers out there trying to find a distant, maybe DNA ancestor. I'm not sure what the motivation is with that, but I think it's more important to be turning your mind to what are your responsibilities being an indigenous person? Is it a matter of entitlement? I know a lot of non-Indigenous people think that. I think what I've experienced and what I see across the country, what I've been taught by so many of my clients that I have the utmost respect for is that their way of being indigenous is a responsibility, the responsibility to their end sisters, and it's a responsibility to their children and future.

RB: Bruce McIvor, it was really good to talk to you today. Thank you.

BRUCE MCIVOR: Thank you very much.

RB: Bruce McIvor is a lawyer and the author of Stand Off Why Reconciliation Fails Indigenous People and How to Fix It. He's a member of the Manitoba Maty First Nation. Well, that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Actor John Cho will be talking to Tom Power about his new live action adaptation of the show Cowboy Bebop. Earlier, we answered some of your questions about kids and COVID 19 vaccines. Canadian children between five and 11 years old could start getting the jab by the end of this week. In the U.S., more than three million kids 11 and under have already had their first dose. In Vermont, one seven year old named Owen wanted to be one of the first in his age group to be vaccinated. Vermont Public Radio's Jane Lindholm tagged along for the whole experience. We'll leave you with that this morning. I'm Robyn Bresnahan. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

PRODUCER: It was a rainy morning in Montpelier when Owen Welsh walked up to the State Street middle school for his 09:45 vaccine appointment.

VOICE 1: How are you both doing?

MOM: Hi, good. How are you?

VOICE 1: You got an appointment.

MOM: We do Owen.

VOICE 1: To grab a bit of hand sanitiser there and have everybody.

PRODUCER: His four year old sister, Greta, was with him and so was his mom, Jessica.

MOM: Owen has been excited for months and just waiting and anticipating that kids could get their COVID shot.

PRODUCER: He had even worn a special T-shirt with Mandalorian helmets, one of his favourite pieces of clothing for the occasion. All right, so who's here? But it's really hard to do something that can feel scary, like getting a shot, even if you really want to do it. And Owen found himself a little overwhelmed.

VOICE 1: OK, let's step over here.

VOICE 2: Oh. My COHEN.

Name is Dallas, and we also have nurse Mandy. Whenever you decide you're ready, you can start taking your jacket off, there's no rush.

PRODUCER: And several reassuring hugs from mom. I'm going to give you a. He faced his fear, removed his sweatshirt and bravely revealed his upper arm to take the shot. After getting a button and a sticker, his vaccine card and an appointment for his second dose, Cohen walked over to the bleachers with his mom and sister, where a Disney movie was playing on a projector and a few other families were already sitting for a brief observation. Over here? Yes, by the time his 15 minutes were up, Owen was visibly relieved and starting to regain his initial enthusiasm for the whole affair. He said he was feeling.

OWEN: Great. Now I'm protected.

PRODUCER: Tell me a little bit about what it was like to get your shot today.

OWEN: It was scary, but kind of exciting. The scary part was that I thought it was going to hurt a little more. And then the exciting part was that I was going to get the shot

PRODUCER: before they left for the day. Gretta, as little sisters are want to do, needed to get her perspective in two.

GRETA: I can't wait to get mine.

PRODUCER: When are you going?

GRETA: On my birthday when I turn five

PRODUCER: out and she only has to wait until January.

Monday November 22, 2021 Full Transcript

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