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The Current Transcript for May 31, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

You think you will blame me because I wanted the Quebec people to know through publicity that they were living in a good country called Canada, that they were privileged to be Canadian. I would not take any blame.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Vintage Jean Chrétien rejecting the word scandal as in the sponsorship scandal. Unequivocal and unbowed under the gaze of history almost 15 years after leaving the prime minister's office. There are topics that get him animated, others he's simply not interested in discussing and still others where he's happy to share his thoughts and opinions. Now in his 80s, he has lost little of his partisan enthusiasm even as he gains a long view on Canadian and world politics. My conversation with Jean Chretien begins in just a moment. Also today untethered and unsupervised:

SOUNDCLIP

I just bought a Lambo. I am the youngest flexer of the century. I am only 9 years old. What are y'all doing with your lives? Y'all be hating on me. Y'all Broke and jealous.

AMT: .She Calls herself L'il Tay. The Youngest Flexer in the YouTube universe at age 9 she has 2 million plus followers and her flexing showing off cars, money, fancy homes all in the style of a pint size rapper has brought out every kind of critic, from genuine concern that she's being exploited to anger at her whole family. And an hour we're looking at a new breed of child star. And there wouldn't be a L'il Tay without the Internet.

SOUNDCLIP

Sometimes we forget the Internet was created about 25 years ago. It's not that long ago. And so we have to navigate how we can make this accessible for all of us.

AMT: But what does accessible for all of us look like? As the founder of the digital Justice Lab, Nasma Ahmed envisions a world of publicly available computers, affordable connections and a public armed with knowledge and the law when it comes to government or corporate surveillance or data for sale. Hear more about the crusade against digital injustice in half an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Trump and the Trans Mountain pipeline: What would Jean Chrétien do?

Guest: Jean Chretien

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

I wanted to stay minister of finance because I've been there only two years and a half and I wanted to do the job. But Trudeau said I want you to do the referendum and he says home is burning. Home is burning. I said, give me the house.

AMT: He's been out of office for nearly 15 years. But the distinctive voice of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien still brings to mind many of the landmark moments in this country's history.

SOUNDCLIP

Fasten your seatbelts he's going to be a hell of a ride.

[Applause]

I want to give you my experience. I want to lead to lead the Liberal Party. I want to serve this country and I need your help. Viva Canada.

[Cheers and applause]

AMT: The so-called Little Guy from Shawinigan who went on to lead the Liberal Party of Canada to three consecutive majority governments had a front row seat to two Quebec referendums, the patriation of the Constitution, the world's response to 9/11 and one of the largest political scandals in Canadian history. Now the 84 year old Chrétien is being profiled in a new two part documentary airing on the CBC documentary channel. The Man, the Story: Jean Chrétien in his Own Words - offers fresh insights into the man and his 40 year political career. I spoke with Jean Chretien yesterday. He was in our Montreal studio. Hello.

JEAN CHRETIEN: Hello.

AMT: Once you have been prime minister what is it like when you are no longer prime minister?

JEAN CHRITIEN: Oh you're just citizen Canadien. That's it. You know the day you quit you quit and you do something else. You know you turn the page and you enjoy life and it's what I've done in the last 14 years and a half.

AMT: You're still really active in politics behind the scenes, though, aren't you?

JEAN CHRITIEN: Not much a little bit. Anybody wants to call me and ask for my views. I'm not shy. I will say what I think. They do whatever they want after that.

AMT: Do you ever talk to Justin Trudeau?

JEAN CHRITIEN: Sometimes But not- I don't want to talk to him too often I had to deal with his Dad. You know I said to Trudeau the father when I became prime minister, he said 'Jean, don't feel obliged to ask me all the time because' he said 'Do it your way'. He said 'you're a very different person than I. And I know you work in a very different way but I know you have the right values'. Because we've been together for you know he became a member in 1965 and I became a minister the same day than I in 67. So 'do it your way and you have the right values and I think you will do well and I wish you good luck'. So I said the same thing to Justin.

AMT: Well welcome back to today's politics but I want to talk more about Jean Chretien, growing up. We are reminded in this documentary that you have been a scrapper since your youth. Tell us about your appendix operation as a child.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Oh. Come on. You know it's not very important. I Wanted to quit the boarding school and I had to find a good reason. And I fake I had an appendicitis, and when I arrive home my dad suspected that I had been a bit mischievous. And my brother was a doctor came. So I kept repeating the same story. So that took me to the hospital and they took out the appendicitis, that was not needed to be taken out.

AMT: So they went all that way before they realised that you were not telling the truth.

JEAN CHRITIEN: -Of Course when the doctor - my brother was not the surgeon but the surgeon that opened they saw that it was quite in good shape but they took it over anyway because it's useful not to have it anymore.

AMT: That just says how determined you were.

JEAN CHRITIEN: I was a bit determined yes indeed.

AMT: And you took that into politics.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Of course. Yes. But you know I was like that all my life I wanted to do things and I was a kid that was 12 years old and I have my own team of a hockey band time. I was a player, I was the coach, and the manager and the youngest of the team. So you know it was me. I loved to get involved in and run a few things to. that's what I've done all my life.

AMT: And of course when you got into politics, elected in nineteen sixty three for the first time on Parliament Hill, right. You come from Parliament Hill.

JEAN CHRITIEN: April 63.

AMT: You didn't even speak English at the time.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Not much. My first speech I was having some anglophone in my writing they had a meeting and I said 'ladies and gentlemen thank you for coming. If you vote for me and I'm elected I would be bilingual in four years'. That was my speech. So many years later I was at a party and I told that story and Trudeau was there. I was his minister of finance and Trudeau said you never keep your word on that, because I still speak with a French accent. There was only Maurice Chevalier and I, who ever had to practise to keep the French accent.

AMT: [Laughs] Well Jean Chretien as you got into government you very quickly to come cabinet portfolios. In 1968 you were appointed Minister of the department that was then called the Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Yes.

AMT: That was an important portfolio to you.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Oh it was very important because there was a government within the government. In those days every day and it was decided in Ottawa. There was no council you know there was a ban. There was a reserve manager who was always a white man named by the bureaucrat from the Department of Indian Affairs. There was virtually no election of chiefs in those days. There was no band council in operation. In the north, in the Northwest Territories, most of the members of the consuls were appointed by the minister. The budget of course was approved by the minister and they had Parks Canada created 10 new national parks when I was there he had Historic Sites and Monuments. I had the Wildlife Service. I was a very busy job and travelling the land all the time. So I was there six years, two ,months three days and four hours more or less.

AMT: Remind us what happened in 1969 when you released what was known as the white paper?

JEAN CHRITIEN: But I had consultation when I became the minister. And I would go to meet the natives, the Indians, and they would always have the same speech. You know we live in an apartheid system, we live on the reserve, we have a Department of Indian Affairs, we have Indian Act and it is a apartheid system. You don't respect the treaties and we don't control our land as we should. So my answer to that was the document I presented was: fine we would make you equal with the others, with exactly the same powers, the equality, the land is yours. There would be no more Minister of Indian Affairs. You're a minister according to the laws that exists in the provinces and the federal government like any other citizen. That was in response to what they were demanding but when they realized that the answer meant that there was to be no more Indian reserve, no special protection anymore, they said it would be a cultural genocide. But I said you can't get it both ways. So I withdrew my paper. But after four years of that, because I was travelling like crazy and going to Yukon, Northwesterns, all the reserve from the west coast of B.C. to Cape Breton and so on, Trudeau felt he says 'it's too much work. You have a family.' And so he wanted to know where we are and he said we discuss another portfolio. He called me back and he said 'JEan, I cannot move you'. I said how come. But he said' the chiefs they want to keep you. So would you accept to keep serving?' I said if you asking me I will keep serving. So when I met the chiefs, said 'What the hell is going on? You knw me. You keep giving me hell all the time and you want to keep me as your minister?' They said we prefer to deal with the devil we know the devil we don't know. And I stay there for more than six years.

AMT: It was in that time that you and Aline adopted your son Michel from an in Inuvik orphanage. Why was it important to you both to adopt him?

JEAN CHRITIEN: But it is a family affairs. We were coming from large families and we adopted this on them, you know. And he is our son and we love him. He is 15 now, 49. So it's a long way. It's 50 years ago.

AMT: You stood by him during some tough times, huh?

JEAN CHRITIEN: You Know what a father and mother do all the time, should do all the time.

AMT: You know. Today we hear a lot of Indigenous adults speaking about their adoption by white parents. I'm wondering how you process the conversation that's going on about that issue now.

JEAN CHRITIEN: You know when there is a mother and the father don't to take care of a baby, you know when you want to have a baby. And in the case of Indians my wife was in the plane with the judge in the Northwest Territories and he said we cannot find any families who wants to take Indian boys. They take Indian girls but they would have Chinese baby coming from Latin America from Africa but they were not adopting the Indian boys. My wife said we will adopt an Indian boy. It's what we did. So they can come. My son, every day, he's very grateful that we have adopted. Perhaps he's an exception. I don't know.

AMT: The conversation around Indigenous issues more broadly is very different now in the wake of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission than it was during your tenure as minister. How do you see the evolution of the conversation?

JEAN CHRITIEN: I don't want to comment on that because I'm not there anymore and I did it my way and apparently the natives were kind of happy with me. I'm very happy that some native still come to see me and discuss with me. But I don't want to get involved in a public debate. It's not my job.

AMT: I want to talk to you about your time as prime minister. Halfway through your first mandate., in October of 1995, the country nearly came apart during the second Quebec referendum. How pivotal was that time for you?

JEAN CHRITIEN: But it was important but I had the occasion after that to introduce the Clarity Act because you know the question was so crooked, the two questions, that was the referendum the day after Quebec was not gone. So the decision of the Supreme Court on that. You know you do don't break a country because you want a vote. You have negotiations. You have problem to resolve. They have tried that to do it unilitrally in Spain with very little success. It has to be done. There's some guidelines and the guidelines in Canada exist because I made a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. It is possible but it is not something that you do lightly. You don't want this with one vote. Canada was over. I remember during the last campaign the NDP was saying that. I said 'really? One Vote? So that means that I would not have been a Canadian any more because one of my friends in Shwaningan had forgotten his glasses at home and he had voted to the wrong line. You think it is serious?' I said the NDP name is illegal. They called themselves the New Democratic Party are under law, it's false advertising because of 60 years they are the new Democratic Party. So it's not very new. And they wanted to change their name at one time and they failed. You know why? Because they didn't have two thirds of the vote in the Assembly. They'll peak you get back if you want you have a spetial meeting of the council, they need to turn their members to agree. And you would break the country with one vote? And they were claiming that I was a Nazi Democrat because I thought it makes no sense. In any large of corporations you have to take care of the minority. You know you don't do a lot of things you cannot do under the laws if you don't have the means to protect the minority shareholders. And one vote suddenly become I was c onsidered as a Nazi Democrat because I would not accept that nonsense, to break a country where one vote. Come on. [Unintelligible] I could not believe that when you did two t hird of the vote to change the name of your party that seriously you would consider to let go without negotiation the country with one vote? I would not vote for a guy where he's one like that, not very responsible.

AMT: Well along with that time around the Clarity Act you also created the federal sponsorship program to boost the image in the federal government in Quebec. You know it became one of the biggest political scandals in modern history...

JEAN CHRITIEN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What is a scandal? Five guys were found guilty, none of them were in politics, four of them never had a card of the Liberal Party, the fifth one had stolen money from the Liberal Party. He was a liberal. So to call me that it was the biggest scandal in Confederation, Madame, it's better for you to check the facts.

AMT: Okay fair enough. But as you know, there was great anger as the inquiry into that came forward and the Liberal Party paid a big price for it.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Yes but you know the problem is the police has to do these things. These commissions is good for the press because you have a lot of news free of charg,e but you know your name appear in a commission and you are guilty.

AMT: Well you were ,never implicated personally.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Because I've done nothing wrong and none of the ministers have done anything wrong. Not one staff person has filled his pocket. But when you appear you know they make big things. They even make big things because my staff has bought for 900 bucks of golf balls one time. Usually they were using the balls at my organisation had ran out of bars so the guy in the office bought 900 balls, for 9 of the dollars a ball that we were giving to the bodyguards of the other country when I was playing golf and so on. And I receive some, you know, that story that was a fun page of The Globe and all the press. Scandal as it was. Come on.

AMT: Would you do anything different now because of the fallout around that?

JEAN CHRITIEN: You know you think you will blame me because I wanted the Quebec people to know, through publicity, that they were living in a good country called Canada and they would blame me for me to do that. When at that time the United Nation was proclaiming every year the best country to live in the world was Canada 9 times out of ten when I was prime minister, that I would not want to to tell the people of Quebec that they were privileged to be Canadians. I would not take any blame.

AMT: It's important to hear what you have to say about this Mr. Chretien.

JEAN CHRITIEN: Yes. But you know but tell, as I you, you know that was one of my problem. I was raised speak my mouth. I don't have 20 guys next to me here in the studio to tell me what to tell you.

AMT: I do want to ask you about Quebec now. It's a different place. It seems that some of the biggest divisions are not so much about questions of sovereignty but questions of accommodation; growing tensions around newcomers, we saw the mosque shooting. Is this a Quebec you know? How do you interpret this?

JEAN CHRITIEN: You know that's it. Because they don't want to talk about the real problem. For me, I don't know. I'm not very offended if I meet somebody who has a veil on the head. If she likes it she likes it. When I would go to see the Pope, my wife had to have a veil on their head and she was still very good looking. And you know, come on, you know, [unintelligible] the nuns of my youth, the way they were dress. They have had [unintelligible] stage one over the other. You know we would have been offended if somebody had said in Africa you cannot wear it. Some like it but for me I would not have worn it easily.

AMT: I want to ask you as well about what you see in the political back and forth right now between Alberta and B.C. and the whole issue of the Trans Mountain expansion pipeline. How do you see that? What are you watching? What are you thinking?

JEAN CHRITIEN: You know I was giving an interview a few minutes ago in French and they caught me in 1971 speaking about the pipeline that we needed to build. And I said you have to have a one corridor it has to be safe for no pollution. You have to protect the environment and you have to create jobs for the natives. I said that in 1971 and they still the same truth today. It's not Trump truth. It is a one single truth. The way [unintelligible] it is oil. Will we be silly enough, having these resources not to sell it. They will burn oil as well that will come from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia and so on. And we wouldn't not have the money of that wealth that we have. So we will not have the money to pay for CBC for example. So come on. It has to be done safely. I was looking at a program of pie the other day during the First World War, more than a hundred years ago. There were building pipelines. There was a fight between the Russians and the Germans to takeover by coup in Azerbaijan for the oil and they have pipelines at that time. So of course it's dangerous but many things are dangerous in life. ,

AMT: How do you react to those who say this could undermine national unity could undermine the whole the whole nation of Canada confederation. You've heard those concerns, how do you respond?

JEAN CHRITIEN: I am telling you my friend I will sleep tonight. you know. Come on. If you want to exaggerate, you can exaggerate. Here you have two NDP government. That's my fun to watch it fighting, you know and they tear up their shirts and so one for this problem. Alberta wants a pipeline, B.C. 60 percent of the people in the B.C. want a pipeline. But the poor Premier has made a deal with the Green. So he always is afraid of losing the vote of the Green. When you are Premier you do what is right. And if he is defeated there will be an election. He will win or no wins. It is not the end of the word in democracy because when you were elected you know that someday you might be defeated. I was lucky I was elected 12 times and never lost but one of the few. I went three majority government. I was pretty lucky to work a bit for that.

AMT: Some might say you're pretty smart.

JEAN CHRITIEN: I don't think it would break the country. Come on. Don't exaggerate that way. I know [unintelligible] think like that.

AMT: You know it's people saying that. I'm jsut asking you what you think.

JEAN CHRITIEN: People. Who is the people? Name them.

AMT: Well various pundits, but will keep going. You make the point...

JEAN CHRITIEN: If I had listened to all the pundits during all my life I would have been a very miserable person. And look I'm joyful I am still today.

AMT: You say you're not losing sleep over this one, but does anything make you lose sleep? What do you worry about when you look at what's going on in the world?

JEAN CHRITIEN: I have one problem I think that the last Globalization has been very good for increasing the wealth in the world. The problem is not well redistributed. You know take China for example during my career when I read news that there was starvation in China, hundreds of thousand people sometimes were dying. Now it's become quite the prosperous nation. They have increased the wealth of the world and it's good. The problem is we don't distribute it the proper way. And it's complicated because if you don't have - I'm not a communist I don't believe that the government can run everything. We have experienced that for a long time and they are all equally poor. So it's not the solution but if it is too much capitalism it's not enough well distributed it. I wrote it. I have over a book coming out in the fall and I wrote about it. And when I say that- remember Harper wanted to erect a monument for the victim of communism, but you didn't want to elect one victim of capitalism. Come on. The problem is why I'm a centrist. Sometimes solutions are on the right. Sometimes the solution are on the left and if you are a radical centrist like me you know you take what is good and laugh and you take what is good on the right. Some people were telling me you're stealing my ideas and I was saying if you want me to. Not to steal your ideas. Shut up. Don't get me do this and when they do that, you blame me. You have to be reasonable in life and I think that you have to find solution. And when you go around the globe, I used to say that in my speech. There's millions and millions of Canadians who gave everything they have to come and share our so-called miseries in Canada. We're doing very well as a country. But in public life there is always debate and it's difficult and this is why we talk and so on, but we have to have confidence in the judgment of the people. And collectively the Canadians have shown judgment in the last 150 years because we started as a poor little colony, former colony of France and now we are former colonies of both the Brits and the French. And we look like one of the best country in the world. So it's why I'm proud to be a French Canadian. I am both French and Canadian and I am proud.

AMT: I want to ask you a little bit more. You talk about capitalism and what's happening with China. We are in NAFTA negotiations right now. President Trump has called Canada spoiled. I'd really be interested to know what kind of conversation you would have with Donald Trump?

JEAN CHRITIEN: I will listen to him talk. And you know the problem is he cannot undo a [unintelligible]. They Autopack was signed in 1965. So we have a common market for Mobey with the Americans since 1965 and we always had problems. I was Minister of Industry and Commerce, Minister of Finance, President of Treasury Board. I was involved in many of these discussions. We had to make adjustment once in a while. Sometimes we have too many jobs in Canada. Sometimes we have not enough job in Canada and we'll talk with the industry you know and on the whole it worked pretty well. And Trump said it's the worse deal we ever made and he's gone in a month. Remember? He's still there. Why? Why, because it's good for them. You know I was talking with Bill Clinton the other day, and he said to me that his wife was clobbered in rural Arkansas. 80 percent of the vote voted for Trump not for the wife of the former president coming from Arkansas. But now they don't want to lose NAFTA because it's based on agriculture and they sell a big part of the produce to the damn Mexicans. So it's why cannot move, you can undo an omelette. So I dealt with them when I was minister. I can tell you many story. The American are big and slow and we're small and fast. And we survive.

AMT: This is true. What would you say to Donald Trump?

JEAN CHRITIEN: Bonjour, and he will not understand. He's the president of United States. I would not have voted for hi, it'sm clear but it is our [unintelligible] how to have him as president. So that's democracy. You live with that. And it is an American problem. It's not a Canadian province. And I remember when I said no to the war in Iraq, the business community, some of the Liberals in my caucus, the so-called business liberals were afraid of my decision. They were afraid that the Americans were to retaliate. It's a hell of responsibility when I said no it was not unanimous in the caucus or indignation it was 50 50 in the polls. So I said to the business delegation one time came to see me, I said okay, you're afraid. Give me the list of all the goods and all the services that the Americans are buying from us and they don't need. I'm still waiting for the list because they buy nothing from us they don't need. And we buy nothing from then we don't need. And it's like that. So it's a good deal. We lost jobs because of that and we gained jobs.

AMT: Do you think it'll survive'

JEAN CHRITIEN: Of course it was. It will have to be modified. And I'm telling you if we change one comma, Mr Trump would say it is the biggest historic victory that ever America ever had and we say yes sir. Mr. Trump.

AMT: So you think we should humor him and stick to our guns.

JEAN CHRITIEN: You know we negotiate, we are in that deal since a long time so there's always a need for changes. And I know it's a problem. The problems occur in public life. You know it's difficult to be a battle. But I enjoyed doing that. I remember my brother in law telling me when they said 'Jean, I don't understand how you can do that, with all the problems you have you have to decide things every day'. He said here we're four our house and we're discussing since three months, where do we go from are all of these next summer. So you have to decide eventually. You have to listen but you have to do what you think is right. And when you're satisfied in your mind and in your heart that you're right, you do it and trust the judgment of the people. And they if they throw you out, politics is over and your wife is up.

AMT: So what's your favorite thing to do now that you're not prime minister? What makes you happy?

JEAN CHRITIEN: Talking with you.

AMT: Beyond That.

JEAN CHRITIEN: No I I'm a lawyer. I'm advising people. And now I'm not responsible. I give my views. If you do what I'd tell them to do, fine. If they don't do it, fine. I'm not responsible anymore and my firm [unintelligible].

AMT: Mr. Chretien thank you for speaking with me today.

JEAN CHRITIEN: My pleasure.

AMT: Thank you. Bye bye.

By Jean Chrétien served as Canada's 20th prime minister from 1993 to 2003 securing three consecutive majority governments for the Liberal Party of Canada. He joined us from Montreal the new two part documentary about him the man. The story Zhang Chrétien in his own words airs on the CBC documentary channel June 2nd and 9th at 7:00 p.m. Eastern time. If you tuned in partway through this conversation we will be posting it on our website CBC dot ca slash the current. You'll also find it on our podcast and on the CBC Radio app. Also in the next half hour we'll hear about a new initiative bringing justice for all to the world online. I'll speak to Naseema Ahmed founder of Canada's new digital Justice Lab.. Stay with us. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti This is the current.

What is digital justice? For many, it starts with their internet bill, says activist

Guest: Nasma Ahmed

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come The Life and Times of L'il Tay.

SOUNDCLIP

I lived in Atlanta. I was broke as hell. But one day I woke up, I sad to my self I'll be broke no more. So I've got up, I started working hard, moving bricks and now we be living in the hill, see that view?

AMT: She talks a big game but Lil Tay is 9 years old. The Vancouver girl who now lives in L.A. has shot to social media fame with her swaggering YouTube persona. But her case raises troubling questions about what it means to be a child star in the Internet age. More on L'il Tay in about half an hour from now.

SOUNDCLIP

All of the ills and injustices that we despair about and program around in the analog world are being encoded and hard wired in this new digital world. This whole new field that is going to wash over all of these civil rights issues because the very things that you're fighting against predatory lending - I mean just go down the list - are all playing out in this digital realm, and people are vulnerable or actually even more vulnerable because of the pervasiveness and power and the potency to do harm.

AMT: That's Darren Walker president of the Ford Foundation which is an international social justice philanthropy. He's had his own remarkable journey in life growing up in a poor African-American family in rural Texas. Today he leads an organization with a 13 billion dollar endowment. And as you heard him say on his foundation's YouTube channel, he believes the fight for justice in a world today must translate into the digital world we all live in more and more. He was urging philanthropists to fight for digital justice. That's a concept my next guest has been thinking about since her school days. Yesterday Nasma Ahmed launched the digital Justice Lab. It aims to tackle issues relating to privacy equity and justice in the online world. And it's based here in Canada. Nasma Ahmed is with me in Toronto. Hi.

NASMA AHMED: Hello everybody.

AMT: Your school homework assignments got you thinking about this idea? What were you seeing? Where were you?

NASMA AHMED: Actually it wasn't my school homework assignments but I was one of the students who worked a lot outside of school. And the opportunities outside of school started to pop up and you know I went to Detroit to this conference called the Allied Media Conference and I met all these amazing people who were using technology as resistance. And as someone who was studying policy at the time I was like oh wow there is other realm that I had not really navigated. And you know being in that space and recognizing that you know as a young kid I knew technology was going to impact me. I knew as my social relationships were being impacted but this was the first time that I saw it in connection to social justice which I already fought for and was working on when I was a student. But this connection was made when I was in the U.S.

AMT: And as a young kid were you were you getting enough accessibility to the Internet, to computers, to information?

NASMA AHMED: Yes. Actually I used to use the public library, so Cedarbrae public library to do my homework. I was actually really lucky and ended up getting access to a computer fairly early on. And that was like a really old computer that we got from a friend I believe, but I use actually use the public library. So as homework to be now online and I used to do research online. The public library was often a place that I did most of that research.

AMT: So talk to me a little bit more about this phrase digital justice. How would you describe it to the average person who is not immersed online.

NASMA AHMED: Yes. I think Darren Walker does a really good description talking about the fact that we do have inequalities and equities in our everyday physical life. And I believe and you know as Darren Walker shared is that it gets replicated, and actually exacerbated, through digital spaces. And so how I view digital justice is how do we think about justice and equity in the digital spaces. How do we ensure that these issues that we see in our physical life is not manifested and replicated? So in our fight for you know being a part of a digital society, how do we ensure that it is just and equitable? And I think that the foundation of just justice, as even a word to use, is important right. It's important as we guide ourselves in this tech world that we are in.

AMT: How do you see digital injustice playing out?

NASMA AHMED: We see it every day. It's the subtle things like what we're talking about in regards to Facebook in Cambridge Analytica and the impact of political ads and the use of political ads to essentially divide communities that were already divided. We can't pretend like there weren't systematic oppressions occurring prior to that. So we see it there but we also see it in like very small ways that people do not know. Very invisible ways. The use of your Facebook and social media for HR processes right. If you were to say things on your private profile that would be used against you potentially if you were to apply for a job or will would tell you that you are unable to take this job right. People used to joke about don't put a photo of you drinking on your profile photo but it's actually getting even worse than that. It's also like your feed right like all that can have an impact on your employment. And also we it in Internet access right. The availability of Internet and communities. You know Canada has you know very expensive internet plans and we all are impacted by that. And ACORN did really amazing study called Internet for all and stated that low income individuals spent one tenth of their income accessing the Internet.

AMT: And that's if they can get the internet because there are parts of this country that it's not accessible at all.

NASMA AHMED: It's not even possible. Can you imagine? So It's not even possible but given that digital societies continue to exist where you know we have to be logged on to apply for jobs, or to do a lot of things in public services. Even having access to the Internet is an issue. Right. And so I think that's a digital injustice.

AMT: You call it a digital Justice Lab. Why a lab? How does a lab address this?

NASMA AHMED: Yes. So the reason why I called it a lab is I wanted to be a place of experimentation because I think that most people feel fairly uncomfortable when they talk about technology. Right. It's fairly inaccessible to think about the language in the words used to describe the things that you see in your everyday life like how your phone works. And so I called it a lab because I want it to be a place where people can learn together, mess up together and you know essentially build something for themselves and see themselves in this work. Because instead of being super prescriptive I felt like saying laboratory was almost an easier way for people to come in with wherever they're at, and be able to bring in their perspectives even if they haven't actually worked in technology at any point.

AMT: Let's walk through a couple of examples of digital justice and I have a clip here I want you to listen to. It's a story about the use of health information of an Alberta first nation battling an opioid crisis. We're going to hear Bonnie Healy executive director of the Alberta First Nations Information Governance Center. She found out that in 2001 Health Canada had released information about pharmacy claims from the First Nation, from what's called the non-insured health benefits database, to an American health and consulting firm. That American firm is called Brogan Incorporated. That information was then offered to pharmaceutical companies for sale.

SOUNDCLIP

We weren't made- We as being First Nations we're not being- we're not made aware of the transfer of data to an American pharmaceutical company until 2007 when Health Canada informed Assembly of First Nations that this indeed happened.

AMT: So in 2007 Health Canada extended Brogan Inc. access to this information for another five years. Health Canada had removed the personally identifying information from the data that was given but Bonnie Healy still has concerns.

SOUNDCLIP

The biggest concern is what was it used for? Who Else was it given to? We do know and understand that Brogan have had access to this information. Not only was this shared, I guess maybe pharmaceutical companies in Canada and the US but it was shared internationally. And when you Phentanyl come in from countries like mostly from China, it is concerning as to who has access to this information because that non-insured health benefit data is very very descriptive for first nations and individuals in what they are primarily utilizing are being prescribed.

AMT: So we asked Health Canada to comment on this and they referred us to Indigenous Services Canada. A spokesperson there sent us a statement which says that data sharing agreement, that specific data sharing agreement, meets privacy standards and that it leads to big savings and better accessibility for medications. So I would just take you through the story there. Nasma Ahmed what do you make of this.

NASMA AHMED: You Know I think about this a lot. What does it mean to own your data or what does it mean for you to be aware of it. And the fact that it took several years for Health Canada to actually share the fact that this information was essentially sold is concern. It is public data as in it is owned by public service and what is our right to know and to be notified of such a sale. I think it's also really important to recognize that, yes, personal identifiable information was taken but how was that data used and as what Bonnie is trying to talk about, what products were created because of it? What were the outputs of sharing this amount of data without actually asking the Indigenous community? And the biggest thing here is selling that data for profit is also an interesting thing to think about. Is the mere fact that you can share data, even if it's not personally identifiable information, to a for profit entity without informing the community that has already been heavily surveilled and heavily documented is an absolute injustice. And I think it's important to recognize, even when we think about our public officials and we're thinking about our different ministries what is allowed to be shared. Yes it might be OK under the privacy ruling but does that mean that we have to bring it up for conversation again about what we want to see and what we believe is just and right. And I don't think that is at all.

AMT: Well and again you make the point we don't even know what we didn't know until we knew that we should have known. I've got another example for you. Last year Metrolinx which is an Ontario regional transportation agency found itself in hot water over concerns about how it was using traveler's information. You know this story. What happened?

NASMA AHMED: So to give information Metrolinx is an arm's length provincial agency in charge of regional transportation planning. Just to give some context and Ben Spurr from the Toronto Star wrote this article about how Presto card information and personal identifiable information was being shared with the police. And it's really interesting.

AMT: So, this is the card you used to go through, that's got your information on it that you use to pay, instead of a token or cash.

NASMA AHMED: Yes. Through the digitization process, in regional planning especially here in the GTA, Presto card is now beginning to become the norm of how you're able to access public transit in the city but also in the surrounding areas of Toronto. And so this is something that the hope is that everyone is going to be using it and the story essentially shared that police were able to access personal identifiable information without notifying the user. And after this report came out Metro Leong's actually changed a bit of their privacy policy to essentially stay that obviously you don't have to actually use your personal identifiable information for you to register for the card. But it is actually told that you're supposed to register your card. It's actually recommended for you to register your card and that's information like your e-mail and your personal name. And so the transparency report that they ended up sharing had 64 requests made in 2017 and about 30 of those requests were like they were able to have access to that information.

AMT: So they were looking to track someone's movements, someone who might be quote unquote suspect or who they say is?

NASMA AHMED: Yes. So the tracking of movement is not necessarily the full case. It's actually a personal identifiable information. I'm not too sure if they are able to also track your actual movements as you tap. So by the way for the Presto card is able to tap off and on. So I'm not too sure about that. But the idea is that they are also just sharing personal information and so they saw that it was various cases. So you know there are cases where criminal offenses, things that have occurred on the transit system but also like missing reports of people, alongside missing wallet like they found a wallet and they were trying to find the person and they needed the information. But you know the fact of the matter is people weren't notified. And so this is the same thing again. Just like the Health Canada situation. Obviously it's not necessarily as grand as what happened with the Health Canada situation but it's also just a small instance of how in our everyday lives we may not realize how much information is being collected about us and how easily accessible it is for law enforcement to be able to access them.

AMT: And I want to just go through a couple more things. Ontario's heading to the polls next week provincial election. So a lot of discussion around carding data that police collect by stopping people overwhelmingly black and brown men and asking for personal information. What would digital justice look like to you on that issue?

NASMA AHMED: I think that there is a really strong need for community capacity building as in opportunities for community organizations to learn the ways in which data is being shared being used for surveillance also being used for positive ways as well. And so I think in the carding data situation I think there is a need for us to come together which I think people have already started like whether that should be gone completely. I'm personally. I personally believe that it should not be available at all because I think that it does have a direct impact on people's lives. And so I do believe that, if it was already inherently racist in its form, that we should have an opportunity to either erase it completely or ensure that nobody has access to it and that it does not play into impacting anybody's lives after that.

AMT: Many tentacles to the idea of digital justice in terms of accountability, in terms of unearthing more information on the information it's being collected both with governments or private corporations.

NASMA AHMED: Yes it is. It's kind of wild. There are so many levels to it. There is your everyday life such as you using your Presto card, to you having access to the Internet, to you having a secure access to the internet. I think that these conversations around digital technologies has already been happening for the last several years. Privacy activists have been fighting back for us for years and years. And so I kind of see the digital Justice slob as playing a role in this larger ecosystem and finding ways for us to bring in more diverse communities, finding more ways for us to make this information accessible whether it's through language and through arts because it is difficult. It is not an easy task and it is only going to continue to impact our lives. So how do we think about alternative futures? How do we think about something that isn't dystopic in form? That isn't inevitable in this process?

AMT: Fascinating stuff. You'll make yourself the go to place. From the sounds of it.

NASMA AHMED: Yes we're really trying to be not only one group but like support others as well in this process.

AMT: Thanks for coming in.

NASMA AHMED: Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: That is Nasma Ahmed she is the founder of the digital Justice Lab at launched yesterday. She's in Toronto. Let us know what you think. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us in our next half hour going viral before you're technically allowed to even have a social media account. Vancouver's L'il Tay is just the latest young person to become YouTube famous. Her case raises questions about child stardom today. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Leave Lil Tay alone, tech writer says of controversial YouTube child star

Guests: Remy Smidt, Jesse Miller, Alexandra Samuel

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to the current.

LIL TAY: Here's a message to all you broke-ass haters. Y'all ain’t doing it like Lil Tay. This why all y'all haters hate me. [Censored]. I ain't got no licence, but I still drive this sports car, all y'all favourite rapers ain't even do it like Lil Tay. Y'all grown-ass men hating on me, but that changing nothing. I'm still going to be rich. I'm the youngest flexor of the century and I'm only nine-years-old.

AMT: That's right, nine-years-old. That's a taste of the content on the Instagram page of the foul-mouthed social media star Lil Tay. She's from Vancouver. She has two-point-three million Instagram followers. She has more than 200,000 YouTube subscribers. Some of her videos have had more than nine million views. Lil Tay's posts show her waving wads of cash in front of expensive cars, bragging about, how rich she is how her outfits cost, quote, "More than your mama's rent." And though she has racked up tons of likes and fans online, there's also a growing backlash against the young star and her mom. Her critics say Lil Tay represents the worst of today's social media culture. And with plenty of other young YouTube buyers setting out to emulate her rise. Her case raises questions around whether we're doing enough to protect young social media stars. Remy Smidt is a reporter for BuzzFeed, who has been covering the rise of Lill Tay's popularity. Remy's in New York City Hi.

REMY SMIDT: Hello. Good morning.

AMT: Tell me more about Lill Tay?

REMY SMIDT: So Lil Tay has had a very intense, sudden rise following a clip that went viral. She was in a clip with other social media stars and this phrase is probably going to sound incoherent to most listeners with Bad Baby and Woah Vicky — other social media stars. So she was filmed in this fight. And then since then, she's become this fascination — with a lot of people asking questions like Where are her parents? There's a lot of mystery and intrigue around her because of how suddenly she rose.

AMT: Do we know her real name?

REMY SMIDT: I do not.

AMT: OK. What's The Vancouver connection?

REMY SMIDT: The family is actually from Vancouver. Ao I spoke to a Lill Tay's mom, and she was a Vancouver real estate agent.

AMT: OK. Now she calls herself the youngest flexer Of The century. Define Flexer.

REMY SMIDT: Flexing is just very much what you mentioned earlier when describing the whole kind of shtick around her, which is holding up wads of cash, and showcasing wealth in a sort of flamboyant way. It's a trope that a lot of influencers and YouTubers rely on.

AMT: And is she mimicking someone?

REMY SMIDT: Not necessarily. I mean it's very much she's mimicking other social media stars in the sense that she's causing controversy and saying things you know lines to get a rise out of people.

AMT: And she's now I guess at the point where people are mimicking her?

REMY SMIDT: Yes, actually there's quite a few people that are mimicking her, creating similar sorts of videos. And from what I've seen, it's a range of ages young to old.

AMT: And you have been in touch with her mother, Angela Tian. Am I saying that name right?

REMY SMIDT: Yes, correct.

AMT: What did you learn from her?

REMY SMIDT: Well, you know I asked her via the family spokesperson just questions about you know there's a lot of concern about where the money earned from Lill Tay's platform is going? She told me really that it was you know none of the public's business. I asked her also about the massive amount of vitriol being directed at her daughter. She sort of said you know that's kind of the nature of the Internet. And in an interview with "Good Morning America", Angela also spoke about you know how her daughter was very passionate. And said of the comments that you know to her, those comments don't exist because she doesn't see them — they ignore them. But at the same time, there is actually footage — older footage — of Lill Tay becoming visibly upset, speaking about being sort of bullied, and asking people to stop.

AMT: The "Good Morning America" thing that ABC played down that "Nightline" did was with the mother and the daughter. The mother barely speaks; it's almost all directed at the daughter. But the mother does say, as you say, she's following her passion. What would that be?

REMY SMIDT: I mean that's an excellent question. I don't know if we can know for sure what lill Tay herself wants. I mean at the end of the day, she is a young girl. And that's something to keep in mind too is I feel like Lil Tay should not have the burden of having to respond to this character because other apparent footage shows her older brother — I asked the family if they want to comment — coaching, her having her parrot profanities. And when I spoke to the mom and to the family spokesperson, they both identified Lil Tay's 16-year-old brother, Jason, as being the driving force behind this controversial internet persona. So I think it's definitely important to question sort of the adults behind this.

AMT: In fact, I've got a clip of what you're talking about from the video of her getting coaching from what we believe is her brother. Let's listen to that.

LIL TAY: Lil Tay be popping on YouTube right now.

JASON: No, no, no, what you do you need to be more ignorant. You need to be like Lil Tay out here.

LIL TAY: What do I say? I a trend maker, and you a trend follower.

AMT: OK. Well, what do you think?

REMY SMIDT: I mean that clip caused a lot of people to be concerned. And I think sort of changed the nature of the conversation because people have still a hard time distinguishing between these stars's characters and then just the people behind them — the child herself. So I feel like this clip definitely changed the conversation; it sparked a hash tag #SaveLilTay. A lot of people who were speaking out saying you know I was attacking her. I was attacking her for these things she was saying. I was calling her a brat. But now I see here that these lines are being given to her. But I feel like that's pretty interesting to point out that this is what it took for people to sort of have that realization. And that's part of what makes these stars so effective is that there's this realness. There's this sense that that's how she really is in how she behaves. And that's what causes the massive amount of outrage. And also the massive amount of intrigue around the character.

AMT: How big an industry are child social media stars?

REMY SMIDT: It's actually a pretty big industry. So for those you know a lot of people don't really take influencers seriously. But you're probably interacting with the content they're making if you're active on any social media platform, whether you identify them as being a part of the industry or not. And there are a lot of parents whose livelihood is actually running these brands that that depend on their young children. I did a story earlier this year on Katie Stoffer, who runs an Instagram account. Running that Instagram account is her full-time job. And that Instagram account relies on her three-year-old daughter. Content she makes with her three-year-old daughter.

AMT: And what kind of money would a family be getting then? Like Lil Tay, others, what kind of money are we talking?

REMY SMIDT: It can be it can be big money. I mean I also did a story on on YouTubers who made videos of their little kids, and they were saying they were making you know ten-thousand dollars a month. But it really depends on how many views you're getting on YouTube, what sort of brand deals you have. But there are a lot of possibilities. There’s also other influencers will pay other creators to collaborate with them. The sort of monetary opportunities are endless. And a lot of brands especially are capitalizing on the platforms these people have to market their products.

AMT: So do we know what she's doing in L.A. now?

REMY SMIDT: You know I'm not sure. I asked sort of what the next steps are? From the family spokesperson, I heard that she's interested in motivational speaking and music. She has been pictured with rappers like Chief Keef, and Lil Pump, so you know it seems that music might be in her future. But so far, what's happened is you know there's content continued to be uploaded to her page. Her team is having her collaborate with other influencers now as well.

AMT: OK, Remy, thanks for some insights into this. Thanks.

REMY SMIDT: Of course. Thank you.

AMT: That's Remy Smidt, reporter for BuzzFeed. She joins us from New York City. Well a lill Tay's videos are not what most nine year olds are posting but they are raising concerns for some Internet watchers. Jesse Miller is the founder of Mediated Reality, that's a company that works to educate people about social media influences. Jesse Miller is in Vancouver. Hi.

JESSE MILLER: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Well, what did you think when you first saw those videos?

JESSE MILLER: Well, I wasn't shocked. A number of social media influencers try and get attention by going to extremes on social media. I think this is one of the first evolutions of child star taking it a bit more explicit path, and using language that would garner more attention. What's interesting — and Remy did mention this — was that a Lill Tay did kind of became a viral sensation by aligning herself with other social media influencers. And those ones were already well-known. And interestingly enough, Bad Baby, and again, I want to reiterate that most your listeners aren't going to know these individuals are, got her rise to fame by participating on Dr. Phil. So within that, we're starting to see that biproduct this kind of reality television, daytime... I'mm not going to say trashy, but not necessarily newsworthy content finding its way to social media.

AMT: Interesting because Dr. Phil got his start off the "Oprah Winfrey Show", so we're just changing the technology and the spinoffs continue.

JESSE MILLER: Exactly. And with that we see oversight changing. I mean we we do traditionally see a producer of a television show not only working within kind of the navigation of able to go past a union or past an oversight committee. This is now the brother and mother saying we've got a phone, we've got the ability to make a video, and let's use the Internet to our advantage.

AMT: So how do you think other children react when they see these videos?

JESSE MILLER: Well, in my work, I specifically work with children in primary and secondary school. And I'm starting to see a rise of children who identify these characters. So when you ask them how they use the Internet or what they access online? Traditionally kids in primary and middle school age will tell you about their experiences with YouTubers. And a lot of it is usually around gaming. But over the past year-and-a-half, especially with the Paul brothers and Logan Paul being removed from YouTube; he was one of the number one influencers on YouTube. A lot of children aged nine to 14 were talking about that story. Now we're trying to assess whether or not they're looking for their peers online. And a lot of children are referencing lill Tay in my work where they say have you seen this video yet? And that becomes a concern because when you have students who in grade four or five who are watching this content, you have to not only address those issues within media literacy. But then also reinforce to parents where they have to have oversight in how their children are accessing content online.

AMT: And why are you concerned for her?

JESSE MILLER: Well, for a Lill Tay partially I mean you look at how, as a Canadian, she has kind of raced to stardom. Locally here in Vancouver, there was a number of media outlets that very much tried to figure out what was going on behind the stories because the producers of her content were stating that they were in California. We saw somewhat of a kind of internet sleuthing happening where people were trying to find locations in Vancouver to identify whether or not there was legitimacy to that. But a child in Canada should have access to oversight for their working conditions and to safety. And this appears to be more the brother and the mother trying to raise her profile. And we would all hope that children would be to have a very normal everyday existence, except for this child who has 2 million followers on Instagram.

AMT: Well, I'm going to pick up on your language because really we are talking working conditions. This isn't just someone following her passion and having fun and uploading. This is a business.

JESSE MILLER: It is. And terrific point.

AMT: Oops, we've got a bad connection there. Speaking of technology, are you still there Jesse Miller. No, he is not. Well, our next guest is waiting. And we'll try to get Jesse back. In the meantime, we've got a little bit of a clip on another social media star. We'll go to that right now.

ALYSSA JAGEN: It's been absolutely crazy. I mean I started posting in August of 2016, and now I have almost nine-hundred-thousand followers, which is crazy. And everything that happened. And I got to write a book, and it's been absolutely amazing.

AMT: That's another Canadian social media star, marveling at how quickly her Instagram account has made her internet famous. Alyssa Jagen is 16-years-old. She's in Toronto. The secret to her success is an Instagram feed devoted to slime. Slime has taken over the hearts and Instagram accounts of tweens and teens and older people in North America. Alyssa was no different.

ALYSSA JAGEN: So, in the beginning, it was it wasn't this crazy. I mean like I asked my mom if I could post on Instagram because I always ask her because I have do get permission. And he was like sure, but just don't show your face. You know you can show your crafts and play with slime and stuff, but just don't show your face for whatever reason she had. And I was like, of course, I just want to play with some slime online and make some friends and it'll be fun, And she was all for it. And I was posting, and posting just for fun, and my account started growing. I vividly remember one time you read dinner, and we were with some family friends who we haven't seen a while. And my mom like like Aly, put away the phone; we're at dinner. And I was like oh my gosh, mom, look at this, the numbers just keep going up and up. And I'm like what's going on?

AMT: Well, what was going on was Alyssa's Instagram account was gaining all sorts of new followers. But unlike most other young social media stars, her primary concern has not been to monetize her fame.

ALYSSA JAGEN: So I've never received that money from posting on social media because I've never done ads or anything like that. And so the way I get my money is I used to sell slime, and I gained money from that. And also, I have a book. So when I sell books, I get royalties from that. But other than that, those are the only two ways that I make money. And all the money I get goes towards university.

AMT: So as for where she'd like to be in ten years, you just heard her say the money she gets goes toward university. She really isn't thinking about the top ten of the YouTube charts.

ALYSSA JAGEN: In ten years, hopefully, I've graduated from university. I'm really interested in business and entrepreneurship. So maybe I am working at a company that's really innovative and exciting. Or maybe being able to start my own company, or have my own product, which would be really cool.

AMT: Okay, So that's Alyssa Jagen, 16-year-old Toronto Instagram star. She has nine-hundred-thousand followers on her page devoted to slime. And, as you heard her mention, she also has written a book, it is titled "Ultimate Slime". We got Jesse Miller back. Hi.

JESSE MILLER: Apologize for that.

AMT: That's a different kind of star, but you're making the point that this is a business. And there's a need to protect kids. But how do you do that?

JESSE MILLER: Well, traditionally when we saw child stars evolve through television the media, there would be oversight committees, and people on set to protect child actors. Also with content, there would be people who would do script assessment, and ask and say what will be the reaction if a child is stating these lines? I do think there's a somewhat of an onus to start to develop an oversight body within social media sharing where we do have more advocacy groups looking for the benefit of child participation online. The thing is that's a very small slice of the pie when we're looking at the larger picture of oversight on the internet when it comes to hate speech and harassment online. But the reality within this for child actors I think a majority of us can look at some of the impacts of adults who who we know reflect and say I remember when a person was acting in movies and television, and see some of the negative impacts that had built on their life. The Internet is going to make that more of an issue for the everyday layperson who at 9, 10, 15 years old wants to be an Internet star. Then 30 years from now, they're reflecting on how they were a known person for a very short amount of time without maybe the benefit of having some money to fall back into. But as mentioned by Remy earlier, the "Good Morning America" interview, there was a quote from the interviewer stating that these are now Canadians who are in Los Angeles, and even though there is oversight from the Hollywood industry with child actors, they didn't push further to ask whether or not Lill Tay was legitimately working in the United States? Who was sponsoring her to be there? These are questions that I think in good journalism should be explored. But the reality of it is that a nine-year-old swearing is a bit more of an interesting topic.

AMT: OK well, Jesse Miller, thanks for your thoughts on this.

JESSE MILLER: Thank you very much.

AMT: Jesse Miller founder of Mediated Reality. He joins us from Vancouver. Well, if you ask a kid what they want to be when they grow up. Many of them are now saying they want to be YouTube stars — often a shorthand for any kind of social media content creator. That's not necessarily a bad thing according to my next guest. Alexandra Samuel as an independent researcher a regular contributor to The Wall Street Journal, and the author of "Work Smarter With Social Media". She joins us from Vancouver. Welcome back. Hi.

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: Hi. Good morning.

AMT: So we've got lots of questions for you as well. So Alyssa's story on slime is a wholesome turn compared to Lll Tay's story that shows really a range in viral content. How does Lill Tay compare to other viral content by kids that age?

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: Well, you know the range of content that is created by people under ten on the Internet now is as eclectic as what you see created by adults. And you know I think what interests us is this handful of kids for whom the Internet you know is not just a place to connect with the ten or 20 kids they know, or the 50 kids who are into the same videogame they're into. But who, mostly through chance, end up with followings of thousands, tens-of-thousands, or even millions. And you know again, there's a huge range there, but there are certain kinds of things that seemed to attract you know the greatest following. There's obviously, a whole bunch of kids who have these weird unboxing video reputations, where people just watch them open boxes of toys. So you know if you can think of a weird form of content, there is some child getting famous by making it.

AMT: If you shoot it, they will watch it. Do you share Jesse Miller's concerns?

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: To be honest, not in the form that he does. I look at this frankly through the lens of as a parent. I've ended up doing quite a bit of research around how families navigate technology use because I observed gosh you know five or ten years ago now that there was this sort of emerging pattern of judgment and conflict among parents. I mean for all that we have media stories about the difference between you know free-range parents and helicopter parents and so on. You know in practice what I observe are parents fighting over this exact issue — namely you know who allows their kid to be online and in what form. And I'm a lot more concerned frankly about the negative impact of the judgment and the infighting than I am about some nine-year-old who wants to swear a lot on YouTube.

AMT: And so what do you think that judgment is coming from?

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: Well, you know I think that technology has proven to be a flash point in all sorts of social conflicts because it makes things feel new when they're actually quite old. And that newness disconcerts us. So you know we're acting like this this child on YouTube is some new phenomenon, but who hasn't been at the awkward dinner party where the parent is insisting the child play piano, or perform a song, or do a little dance, even though the kid obviously doesn't want to? You know who hasn't seen a big brother manipulate his little sister into asking Mom and Dad for pizza night, or movie night, or whatever thing that he knows his sister will get that he can't get.

AMT: But is it different if they're doing that so that somebody can pull in tens-of-thousands dollars a month for the family?

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: I think that we're making a lot of assumptions here that haven't really been validated. And it's very easy to be judgmental, and I always try and think when I look at stuff on the Internet frankly what would be the context here that would make me look at this more generously? And you know the reaction that people have to Internet stars is you know hugely contingent on a lot of assumptions. And I'm really uncomfortable with the way that we're sitting in judgment on this family without actually having a whole lot of information about them.

AMT: What about the issue that this is a job though? I mean it's like acting, right? You can have a local play with your friends, or MGM can hire you do have to be part of a blockbuster. It's that range, but there are laws on one end and there are not laws on the other.

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: Yeah. And I just I'm not sure how we would go about regulating this in a way that would not create more problems than it solves. Just to be clear, this is not my idea of a wholesome family activity. But again, that's my idea. And I see parents do stuff all the time with their kids that makes me hugely uncomfortable. And you know to be honest, like if you look at a parent who has their kids spending 20 hours a week at a hockey rink in the hope they're going to be the next big NHL star, well there may not be cash changing hands today. But that isn't necessarily any less exploitative or pushy or damaging to the kid than something like this. And so I think it's the the Internet-ness of it, the fact that it's new, the fact that you know we know lots of us had parents who drove us to the hockey rink every morning when we were kids. None of us grew up with our parents putting us on YouTube. And so that triggers this backlash of judgment that I don't think actually reflects the relative dangers that the Internet poses compared to other activities.

AMT: OK well, thanks for your thoughts on all of this today.

ALEXANDRA SAMUEL: My pleasure.

AMT: That is Alexandra Samuel. Independent researcher or regular contributor to the wall street journal, author of "Work Smarter With Social Media". She joined us from our Vancouver studio. Let us know what you think about all of this. You can tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

Thursday May 31, 2018 Full Text Transcript

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