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The Current Transcript for May 30, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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You know, I don't feel it's a wait. I agreed to do this job, and it's my responsibility to deal with whatever I am confronted with.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, it may not feel like a burden, but as Canada's first Indigenous Governor-General, there are high expectations on Mary Simon. And in many ways, though, the life and career of the Inuk trailblazer from Kangiqsualujjuaq seems to have been building to this moment. This morning, the feature interview with the Governor-General, Mary Simon, about words, action and the true meaning of reconciliation. The value of an apology. And how she sees her role as a unifier in a time of national division. That's in a moment. Also this morning, healing seems a long way away in Uvalde.

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Ellie, she was a really good friend, her and Alexandria. Alexandria, I knew her since I was in pre-K. She was a really good friend. That just broke me down.

MG: As the Texas community comes to grips with the horror of a mass shooting that left 21 dead. We head there to hear from a community pulling together in the face of unimaginable tragedy. That's in an hour. We begin, though, at Rideau Hall. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Indigenous communities 'expecting more' from Pope's visit, says Gov. Gen. Mary Simon

Guest: Mary Simon

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Healing is a migration, not a destination. It begins slowly, softly and carefully. It follows its own path, carrying us forward, but also in many other directions. And I know that so many have now heard us from every corner of the country. We are united in the horror and sadness we feel.

MG: That's Governor General Mary Simon speaking at a memorial marking one year since unmarked graves were found on the site of a former residential school in Kamloops. Last year, as more communities made similar discoveries, there were waves of grief and soul searching across this country. When Mary Simon was installed in that role, there was a hope that as a seasoned diplomat and as the first indigenous person to serve as a Queen's representative, she might be able to help bring the country together. Last week I had the chance to sit down with the Governor-General at her official residence at Rideau Hall.

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MARRY SIMON: Hello.

MG: Hi.

MARRY SIMON: How are you?

MG: Lovely to meet you.

MARRY SIMON: Nice to meet you.

MG: For having us here. It's an amazing room. I mean, the art throughout this is extraordinary.

MARRY SIMON: Yeah, we're getting there. We're putting more indigenous art into the Rideau Hall.

MG: It's like living in a museum, right?

MARRY SIMON: Yes. And sometimes we change it around, you know, so it's not always the same.

MG: We met in an ornate sitting room decorated with stunning works of Canadian art. More on that later. But first, we spoke about her role and her recent trip to Kamloops. Here is the first part of our conversation.

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MG: Thank you for having us.

MARRY SIMON: Well, thank you for inviting me.

MG: What is it like? You've been almost a year in this role, living in this space. What is it like to live and to work here?

MARRY SIMON: It's very different from my former life. And, you know, it's been a bit of an adjustment. It's a wonderful place. There's so much history here. And like you said, the art is amazing. And and the people that I work with are amazing. So, you know, now I've been here almost a year and I'm getting pretty comfortable in my role.

MG: What have you learnt about what that role is in the in the last year?

MARRY SIMON: The role is varied. There's lots of honours that we give throughout the year for bravery, for volunteerism, Order of Canada. There's many events like that that we host and also the, just the fact that I'm able to get out and talk to Canadians again after when I started the pandemic was still ongoing. It still is. But now the rules have changed and it's a different situation. So it's more open. So I'm able to go and talk to people now and have conversations with how people are feeling, what their journey is like throughout the pandemic and and today. So it's very rewarding. The job is very rewarding in many ways, but also a big challenge for me. There's lots of challenging issues and. There's ceremonial aspects to it. And I'm I'm developing the priorities that I talked about in my installation speech last year and will be we're developing different initiatives and activities that we'll be rolling out over the over the months and so on. So it's a busy place.

MG: What's most challenging about the role?

MARRY SIMON: I think the challenge is to really. I work at how we address reconciliation in Canada. There are so many aspects to it and it's to find that conversation that allows people to understand why reconciliation is is needed. What happened to indigenous peoples in Canada? Because a lot of people don't know. Only recently have people started to be much more aware of of the residential schools and how indigenous children were punished and brutally dealt with and how those residential schools went on for years and how it affected not just the children, but the families and the parents and the grandparents that lost their children to this system. So it's been a it's been a very challenging part of the job, but it's also the necessary part of the job. I was appointed as an indigenous person and as a governor general for all Canadians, so that I could bring this conversation together in a way that will allow us to tell our stories.,Be more respectful of one another and to give space for different cultures and different languages. And and as Canada is such a diverse country, it's not just really about indigenous peoples and Canadians, but it's all Canadians that need to talk to each other about how do we live together? In a way that allows people equal opportunity, that allows for us to express our cultures and our diversity in the way that we want to, not to be told how to do it and live respectfully and get along in the country. That's what I aspire to.

MG: I'm going to ask you about getting along in the country in a minute. You were just in Kamloops. And when you were installed in this role, it was last summer in this country was was reeling in the wake of what was discovered at that former residential school in Kamloops and in other areas across the country. When you were there in Kamloops to mark that anniversary, what did it mean for you to be there? Why was it important for you in this role to be there in that moment?

MARRY SIMON: Well, I had heard and read through. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission that there were children that never got home, got back home, and the parents never knew what happened to them. So. When the the unmarked graves were found first in Kamloops and then in other parts of the country, in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba. I just felt the need to to to go and see the people that were that were badly affected by the by the whole revelation that the graves were actually there. And I don't like to use the word discovered because, you know, we we don't think they were discovered because indigenous peoples knew they were there, but they didn't know exactly where. But I think that they were found and. For me to go there and see it and to experience firsthand the residential school itself and also the unmarked graves, and also to talk to the leaders in the community and also to talk to the elders and other people in the community that were after one year still grieving. And still very sad about this whole thing. And at the event last week. I got to speak to these people. And it meant a great deal to me as an individual to be able to do that and to support them in their in their journey to to deal with these atrocities.

MG: You said in your remarks, we mourn with you. We stand with you and we believe you. Why did you say we believe you? Why was it important for you to say that?

MARRY SIMON: Well, history shows, Canadian history shows that this whole era of colonisation and residential schools was not known by a lot of Canadians. In fact, I've talked to many Canadians that didn't know that there was a residential school around around the hill in some of the cities. So there's a lot of unknown facts about residential schools. And in fact, when indigenous people try to tell their stories, there was a lot of disbelief that this wasn't real, that it didn't really happen. So. When we when when, when that whole thing started to come out and the unmarked graves were found, it seemed to to wake up the country. It seemed like suddenly Canadians were really saying to themselves, this really happened. So I had to say that I believed them so that the country can believe also that this is something that we have to deal with as Canadians, as a country.

MG: You also said and to that point, the time for we didn't know is over. So what now? I'll use your phrase. The Canadians have woken up to this. What do you want to hear and see from non-Indigenous people in this country?

MARRY SIMON: I want to see a place where we talk to each other and respect each other. Get rid of the racism that's going on. And also to be able to agree that we will work side, work side by side and live in a country where we give each other not only respect, but opportunities, equal opportunities, for instance, for education, for jobs, food security costs. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. So it's to give that kind of understanding with each other and to build a country through our democracy in such a way that that our country does deal with its people in that way. So that living side by side, giving space for healing, giving space for conversations, giving space for telling each other our stories. If I tell you my story, you will get to know me much better. If you tell me your story, I will get to know you and become, I guess, in a way, understanding each other more means that you learn to respect each other and you understand someone else's culture and language is real to them. It's part of their their their human DNA, you know, like and you can't take that away from people. It's it's just not right. You have to be able to respect different cultures and languages.

MG: How far away from that do you think are we right now? I mean, again, last summer felt like something in terms of the conversation in this country. But I wonder now. Summer's about to start again. Where are we at?

MARRY SIMON: I think the fact that we are talking about it in real time. It's really important that a year later we are still having this conversation about reconciliation and we haven't really done any big work yet. It has been going on. I mean, each of us do reconciliation every day. And so it's a journey. It's the way we live and. People. I think when I was appointed, I got so many messages from Canadians, not in not just indigenous, but all Canadians, about how happy they were for my appointment, because then I could really bring reconciliation into the forefront and get people together because of my role as the Governor-General is. I have the convening power to do that and and the more I do that, I think it's going to become clearer that we are actually working at it and a lot of organisations are talking about it. A lot of schools are actually practising it. They're teaching reconciliation. I was at a school yesterday in Victoria and you know, five and six year olds, they were talking about reconciliation in their own way, you know, and asking me questions. And that's the part I love about my job is to be talking to two students and getting them to have a conversation with me about not just reconciliation, about but about the relationship that they they have to build with their friends and with especially between indigenous people and other people in Canada. So I think we're moving you know, we are moving forward. We're not going backwards. And I think the more we find an unmarked graves, the more Canadians are going to see that we need to keep moving forward forgiveness, acknowledgement, respect for what happened and for different governments to deal with the the wrongs of the past and and and allow people to be themselves.

MG: One of the other emotions that people are expressing in that moment is anger. And you saw that in Kamloops. The prime minister was invited and during his remarks he was heckled. People were saying Canada is all Indian land. What did you what did you make of of that?

MARRY SIMON: Well, first of all, let's just look at what grieving is all about. There is a process in grieving. So there's sadness. There's disbelief, there's anger. And I think because of what happened a year ago with the prime minister, people are still upset in that community. And they had to express some of that anger. It doesn't mean that the community's not going to work with the prime minister. But just the fact that they expressed some anger towards the man that represents the country is. And it wasn't, you know, I mean, there was some heckling and saying things that that maybe that's how they felt. But the community itself, I have been told by Casimir, the chief, that they are going to work with the country and they are going to work with the prime minister. So I think we need to allow people to process that grieving. And probably the next time the Prime Minister goes there, it'll be very different.

MG: Do you understand where that anger comes from beyond that moment? I mean, people will often say maybe it's a generational thing, that there is a younger generation that is done with talking, that people want to see action. Do you understand where where that anger would come from? When we're talking about the broader issue of reconciliation?

MARRY SIMON: Both are happening. I think both are happening. I see a lot of the leaders, the younger generation, wanting to move forward and address the issues and and continue moving forward. And there are those that have there are those that are former residential survivors. They're still in probably a lot of pain. And there are those that lived with parents and and have had and they have inter generational trauma, which a lot of people don't understand. But when there's abusive relationships in the family. Irrespective of what the cause may be. But in this case, it would be the victims of the residential schools that this anger has been carried through the family. The abusive nature has been carried through the family. And you become that person. And I think a lot of people have... I know a lot of people myself that that have gone through that kind of thing. And I mean, I've had people angry at me, which I find acceptable because I am a leader and I have to be able to explain to them why I'm doing what I'm doing and have them agree or disagree. You know, it's up to each individual to to agree or disagree. But I think. This this intergenerational trauma is real. It's real. Even the younger generation are still experiencing some of this intergenerational trauma. But it will move forward, depending on how each of the communities deal with the issue. Mental health is a big issue, and that's part of it. Mental health has been exacerbated by the pandemic, but never before that our communities were dealing with mental health a lot. And there's no serve. There have not been very good services in our communities.

MG: That's part one of my conversation with the Governor General Mary Simon, recorded at Rideau Hall last week. Coming up in the next half hour, more with Mary Simon. Her expectations for the pope's visit to Canada this summer and his apology to indigenous peoples. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

MG: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back with more of my conversation with the governor general Mary Simon, recorded at Rideau Hall. If you missed the first part of our conversation, you can find it on our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent or on our podcast. As we walked the corridors of the official residence, you could not help but notice that it really does look like an art gallery. Are there, I mean, in this room? Pieces, one or two pieces that really speak to you, that really leap out to you, that you walk past every day and you kind of in a busy schedule, have to stop and think, well.

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MARY SIMON: This room does for sure, because it has a lot of Inuit art in it. And probably the legend of Sedna is probably one of my favourites.

MG: Tell me about that.

MARY SIMON: Because I live here at the time. Well, it's not always, always a positive thing in legends, but this is Sedna that a father had wanted a son and got a daughter and he wanted her to be a great hunter. But unfortunately that didn't happen. So somebody cut her fingers off and threw them into the ocean. And that created all this new life. And in the oceans where there would be an abundance of seals, walruses, whales, because we really depend heavily depend on the marine life and the oceans for our livelihood up north in the Arctic. So that's and then she went to the bottom of the ocean and she lived there. And depending on her mood, she would create these abundances. And that that is, you know, it's kind of interesting when you're growing up as a child, hope to hear these types of things. And it was my grandmother that that told us a lot of these legends.

MG: And so when you come by here now, I mean, what do you think about when you see this piece?

MARY SIMON: I think of the North. I think of home, the homeland that I grew up in and and the lifestyle that we lived. And it helps me get grounded every day.

MG: Is that important, that being in a role like this, having something that grounds you?

MARY SIMON: Oh, very much so, yes. And because it's you know, I'm in another part of the country and the lifestyle of her different and just remembering who I am and where I come from just helps me to deal with the very many different things that come across my way. So it's very important.

MG: The role of governor general requires Mary Simon to walk a difficult line, remaining politically neutral while also working on some of the thorniest issues this country faces. Here's part two of our conversation.

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MG: How do you. Interpret the weight of the expectations on you in this role. As you mentioned, there were many indigenous people who were over the moon with you being installed in this role and the expectations that would come with that. And in terms of the larger conversation around reconciliation. What is that weight like for you?

MARY SIMON: You know, I don't feel it is weight. I feel it as a responsibility. I agreed to do this job, and it's my responsibility to deal with whatever I am confronted with and in throughout my life, in my career for the last 47 years, that's always been my approach. And it's to. It's to. Not to make amends, but to to be able to express myself in a way that that they see me as a strong leader, but that I'm compassionate. I'm real. And I talk to people in that way and people appreciate it. So I don't feel it as a as a heavy thing.

MG: But there is a real responsibility. And I just wonder what you feel that responsibility is. Part of it, you said, is to be real.

MARY SIMON: Yeah. The responsibility is to carry out what I promised to carry out. I was very careful when I was installed to make sure that my installation speech was a clear and not too long because people start listening if you talk too long. So. My responsibility is to have an office that is supporting me in a good way. I get that I have a very strong team and that my vision as the Governor General of Canada is carried out in such a way that brings people into the community, into the fold, into the centre, and just like I said, to be respectful and be able to work together. So I think the challenge is there definitely and sometimes the challenge seems very big on some days. On other days it's it's not so big, but it all depends on how we work together as a team at Reader Hall and find solutions and suggestions on how to deal with these issues. And I think we've been able to carry that out within the year. I haven't been here very long yet.

MG: You're the representative of the Crown. And so one of the expectations perhaps that people have is that and we saw this in the lead up to the visit to Canada by Prince Charles and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, that people are looking for an apology from the royal family for the role and in residential schools and colonisation more broadly. Is that something that you discussed with them? Is that something that you've spoken about?

MARY SIMON: To the royals?

MG: Yeah.

MARY SIMON: No, not really. I did tell them that some of the leaders might bring it up because I had heard beforehand that, you know, there might be a discussion about that. But other than that, I didn't really talk to them very much. It's really up to the leaders to make their case. Like I'm focussing on my mandate, which is to represent the Queen in Canada and to work do my work as the Governor-General and to work with Canadians. Now there will always be these other big issues coming up in relation to Indigenous people, but I'm not, I'm not involved in political issues with this job, although I was in previous jobs. So it's it's something that I see. And, you know, I can see where where it's coming from and how it might evolve. But. Right now. I don't involve myself too much in that part.

MG: What's the value of an apology, do you think? I mean, we're going to see the summer visit from the pope. And the expectation is that there will be an apology delivered here in Canada. What's the value of an apology, do you think?

MARY SIMON: The value of an apology is. This is important. It allows people to heal in many ways. That's one aspect of it. But it can't just be words. It has to be followed with action. So there has to be some action behind the apology. And when I accepted the apology from Prime Minister Harper in 2008, I talked about education and how action had to be carried through after the apology. So education was was was the key issue for me at the time. But in this case with the pope, I think depending on which nation the pope is talking to, will depend on whether there's treaties or some without treaties, the media in a different situation. So he may get different comments, but in the end, what will matter is he did make an apology at the Vatican with some of the leaders that were there. But now he will be coming to Canada and he will be able to say the apology on the grounds of indigenous people. And I. I suspect that it's going to be similar to to to what he said in at the Vatican. But people are expecting more that he will include the church as an institution. But I don't know if that will happen or not because I don't have any of the details. I'm just talking about some of the expectations that I've heard from some of the indigenous leaders.

MG: And to your point, though, I mean, the apology is the apology, and that action needs to follow.

MARY SIMON: That's right.

MG: Can I ask you about you talked about, you know, you telling me who you are and I'm telling me, you know, who I am. Part of who you are is in the north. A lot of who you are is, is in the north. You went back home recently for the first time in this role. What was that like?

MARY SIMON: Yes, I went back about a week, ten days ago now. Time flies. It was I hadn't been home for three years because of the pandemic. And it was just pure happiness.

MG: You smile as you say that.

MARY SIMON: Yes, pure happiness. And people were so thrilled to see me. And in every community that I went to, you know, there was gatherings and whole crowds of people at the airport. It was just wonderful. I just realised that that insiders are so brilliant that they're very accepting people. I think Indigenous peoples are in many ways very accepting people. But we have survived throughout history. So and I think indigenous peoples are going to become, you know, themselves again with their own culture and hopefully the languages, some of the languages will come back. Our language is still strong and we use it a lot up north. So it was it was beautiful.

MG: What do you love about that place?

MARY SIMON: It's home. It's my home. I was born and raised up in the Arctic, so I didn't learn English until I started school. And my mother and my grandma mother were both, you know, lingo in women. And my father was very fluent in Inuktitut. So our language was always in Inuktitut. So it's it's a place where I belong.

MG: And what don't you think people in the South understand about the North? I mean, the North exists for Canadians is part of our identity, but it's also for a lot of people who have never been there, something that is foreign to them and that shapes relationships, that shapes interactions. What don't people in the South understand?

MARY SIMON: I don't think a lot of people understand that it's a vibrant part of the country, that there's different cultures living there, different things happening in the north and the challenges that that people face in the north. Cost of living. Living is like three times, four times higher than, let's say, in Ottawa. I can't imagine what the price of gas is like up north now, or even people can use their skidoo or it's hard to say the cost of living is so exorbitant. But I think the main thing that I always find when people meet me for the first time is that they talk like almost like the Arctic is a magical place that they would love to go there. And and it's it's it's too bad that that the cost of living is so high and flying up there is is, you know, you could go to Europe five times just to fly to the Arctic once. And so people can't really go. But on the average, Canadians still don't really know what the Arctic is all about.

MG: Just finally, I want to go back to something that you said earlier, which is about us talking to each other. It feels like this country is not talking to each other right now or parts of this country are talking to each other. People are yelling at each other. People were yelling outside this building when there's an occupation in downtown Ottawa. Your role is in some ways to bring people together. How worried are you about that? How worried are you about the fact that that we seem to be split apart, that we don't seem to be talking to each other and listening to each other, perhaps even more importantly.

MARY SIMON: It's a big challenge. I think it's something that we all have to work at. It's not just about what I do. It's about what Canadians do. To change the way they do things. And I think it's really important for people to realise that each of us has a responsibility. To create a better country and we have to do it together. Otherwise, it'll continue to be splintered. There will always be tensions, mind you, between the east and the west and north and south. I think that's normal for any country. But on the ground level, I think there is a real need for people to to just say to themselves, I need to do better. I need to help create a country that is diverse, inclusive and. Less divisive. And that goes to a lot of different things that we could talk about for hours.

MG: But, I mean, I don't think you could be in this role and not be an optimist. You're optimistic that we can get there?

MARY SIMON: Oh, yes. I'm not, I'm an optimist. There's no doubt about it. I have. Lived through a lot of different things that. That needed fixing. So I'm a big optimist. Anything that I see and do I feel we can change it by working at it?

MG: It's a great pleasure to talk to you. Excellency, thank you very much.

MARY SIMON: Well, thank you for being here. Thank you.

MG: That's my conversation with the governor general, Mary Simon, recorded last week in Ottawa at Rideau Hall. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

Free-roaming felines are causing problems in Iceland. Some towns are considering a cat curfew

Guest: Egill Bjanasson

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MG: That is the unmistakeable voice of the Icelandic singer Bjork. And the song that she's singing is about another legend in that country. A Christmas cat. The Yule cat is said to lurk in the countryside, menacing people who haven't managed to find new clothes to wear for the holidays. And you might be asking yourself, why a cat? Well, it turns out that cats loom large in Icelandic culture. Read any tourist guide about the capital Reykjavik and the outsized population of cats invariably comes up. Lately, though, there has been a push to get those cats under control. One city has imposed an outright ban on outdoor cats. Cat curfews are also on the agenda in other cities. Egill Bjarnasson is writer and journalist in Reykjavik. Egill. Hello.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Hello.

MG: If I happened to be out for a walk in Iceland, how often is it that I'm going to come across a cat on the streets of that city.

EGILL BJARNASSON: As often as a human, I think.

MG: That's a lot of cats.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Well, or few humans, it depends on how you look at it.

MG: Why is it that Iceland is so cat positive, if I can put it that way?

EGILL BJARNASSON: Well cats are great, that's the short answer. Another one is that in Reykjavik, dogs were banned for a very long time. We considered them farm animals. And so until 1985, Reykjavik allowed dogs as pets. So, you know, a lot of people just grew up with with cats instead.

MG: And there is a statute we heard Bjork song there. There's a statue of the Christmas Cat somewhere in the city as well.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Yeah. Every Christmas we put out that enormous statue and and celebrate the Christmas Cat. In return, the Christmas Cat eats children, which is kind of a strange Christmas spirit. But that's the tradition. Yeah.

MG: So in the face of all of this cat celebration and cat positivity, there is a push to, as I said, get cats off the streets. What is wrong with cats in Iceland right now? Why aren't why are people lobbying against cats outdoors?

EGILL BJARNASSON: Well, I think two things have happened. During the pandemic, a lot of people got a cat, invited the cat to their home. You know, it used to be in every fifth home or every fourth home. But I believe it's it's higher today. And the second the idea of banning cats outside just kind of spread, and gripped a part of the population who believe it's the right thing to do for, you know, the people have their own. Many people have their own reasoning, but in a recent article I wrote, I looked at it from the ecological standpoint.

MG: What is that ecological standpoint?

EGILL BJARNASSON: Well domestic cats are rarely part of an ecosystem. Despite thousands of years of domestication, cats still prefer their food at 38 C, the temperature of fresh blood. They are killers. And I got a cat during the pandemic. And I can realize the hard way of how much damage they can do to bird life. Cats are responsible for the extinction of at least 63 species worldwide, and they've contributed to the endangered status of another 587 species. These are incredible numbers. And if you think about the numbers that they hunt every year, these are billions of birds that domestic cats hunt. They are the biggest mortality that, the biggest sort of human-imposed mortality of birds is by domestic cats. They kill more than, you know, buildings and cars.

MG: And so in cat-loving Iceland, how does this idea go down, that cats are killers and we need to keep the cats off the streets and indoors?

EGILL BJARNASSON: And so it goes down in a way that now many people are arguing for a curfew on cats, whether it is a night-time curfew, or a total cat curfew. And, you know, the debate doesn't necessarily take into account that they do the damage to bird life, it is also that people see them as a nuisance and they should be treated as dogs. But I think, you know, that's the way that the debate is framed. But in the article that I recently wrote for Okay magazine, I look at it, you know, as, from, from the standpoint of whether we should do it to protect bird life. I think they should.

MG: This has been an election issue in one city in Iceland. Can you tell me briefly about that?

EGILL BJARNASSON: Yeah. In the town of Akureyi, which is the largest town outside of Reykjavik or the capital area, they decided to ban cats entirely starting in 2025. And they then had to roll it back because there was a lot of objection. There were, you know, nationwide, there were people protesting this ban on behalf of cats. And saying that, uh, saying that they, that they should be allowed to roam outside as they have done, ever since the country was settled. And eventually, you know, before local elections, which just occurred, they decided to change this ban into a night-time curfew. So from from 10 in the evening, to the morning.

MG: Morning And in those elections, there was a cat party that was running. Is that right?

EGILL BJARNASSON: Yeah. There was a local artist called [unintelligible] who ran as the head of the Cat Party. And he said actually that if he would be elected, he would allow a cat called Reykjavik to take his seat in the local parliament. But, uh, but he didn't get elected partly because, you know, his cause was kind of ruined on the last on the island by by softening the pban.

MG: We're just about out of time. Sadly, you have a cat. You said you got a cat during the pandemic.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Yeah. I have a cat who is with me here, and looking at me sort of like a mafia boss. So I'm being very careful about what I say.

MARY SIMON: As you should, yes.

EGILL BJARNASSON: She's been a total menace and I've been I've been keeping her inside now that we have a nesting season. I have a lot of backyard birds and I like to have it that way. So I feel like I do need to keep it inside, although there are ways you can there there are ways to limit what they can how much the cats can hunt. But you can't really they will always be able to attack chicks or nests.

MG: But in the meantime, your cat stays inside.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Yeah. At this time of year. Yeah, she will stay inside. She was an outdoor cat when we got her. And, and. But she would have to stay inside now. She hasn't really loosened the habits. And I tried to tell her that. I tried to tell her that indoor cats live up to four times as long. But she's been trying to put on more weight to to prove me wrong.

MG: Egill, it's good to speak with you about this. This is fascinating. Thank you very much.

EGILL BJARNASSON: Thanks.

MG: Egill Bjarnasson, a writer and journalist in Reykjavik. Not discussing bans or curfews here in Canada, but people have strong feelings in this country about indoor versus outdoor cats. Let us know where you come down. You can reach us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC or email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your regional update is next. And then a portrait of a town in shock and in mourning. In 90 seconds, we head to Uvalde, Texas, to hear how people in that community are coming together in the face of unimaginable tragedy. This is The Current.

A community grapples with grief after school shooting in Uvalde, Texas

Guest: Joana Draghici

MG: I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Last week, a small working class rural city in Texas suddenly became known as the site of the second deadliest school shooting in the United States. On Tuesday, an 18 year old entered Robb Elementary School in Uvalde with an assault rifle and opened fire on a grade four classroom. He killed 19 children and two teachers. Our producer, Joana Draghici, she has been in Uvalde for the past few days. Joana, good morning.

JOANA DRAGHICI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How are people doing there right now?

JOANA DRAGHICI: It's been six days since the shooting, but I'm not sure people have taken notice of that here. This community is in a lot of pain right now and you can feel it almost anywhere you go in your Uvalde.

SOUNDCLIP

[Prayers in English and Spanish]

JOANA DRAGHICI: That was in the town square. And you hear the pastor there praying in Spanish. There's a big Hispanic community here. Uvalde is a small city of about 16,000 people and 120 kilometres from the Mexican border. And the square is right downtown off the main road. And that night, people just started holding hands and broke into prayer. This is also a community that's deeply rooted in faith. So that's happened often since I've been here.

SOUNDCLIP

But I pray all to this family and I pray specifically for comfort. I pray for comfort on this family.

JOANA DRAGHICI: In that first clip, you can hear the fountain. It's in the middle of the square and around it, people have built a memorial. There's a white cross for every victim with their name on it. And people are coming from every part of Texas with flowers and candles, stuffed animals, balloons, placing them in front of each cross. That's what President Biden did when he was here yesterday. And you can pretty much go there at any time of the day and people just keep coming and coming. And Uvalde is in the middle of a heat wave right now. It's about 37 degrees every day. But that's not stopping anyone, including the families they're going there too.

SOUNDCLIP

[Chatter]

JOANA DRAGHICI: That's Alexandra Rubio's family. She was ten years old and there was a basketball in front of her cross and now it's surrounded by flowers. People just need a place to go and get their feelings out to find comfort, support. And the town square is that place for many right now.

MG: It's just heartbreaking. And I mean, it's obviously just such an awful time for everybody who's there. Were you able to speak with any of the families who are working through the grief right now?

JOANA DRAGHICI: I did. And this goes to show how kind and gracious people are here, despite the fact that they're still in shock and hurting and grieving. I was driving down the main road, going to the town square. And if you want to get anywhere in Uvalde, you kind of have to get onto this road. And off this road you can see, you know, the local furniture shop and some fast food places. And there's also Garza's radiator shop. And when I was driving by there, I saw people gathered outside in front of the parking lot, and I wasn't really sure what was going on. You could hear this faint chanting. And the sidewalk was blocked off with pylons. And so I decided to pull over and check out what was going on there. And that's when I bumped into Amy Perales. She was on her way there. She knows the Garza family. Amerie Garza was ten years old and one of the victims. I let Amy know I was a journalist and she went to ask the family if it was okay for me to sit with them. And they welcomed me in.

Speaker 4: [sc]

That's good my baby.

JOANA DRAGHICI: That's Laura Garza, Emily's aunt. She told me this was a rosary for her niece. Family members were holding rosaries and praying together, and she said it was custom to do this for several nights in a row after someone dies. Laura sat across from me at a picnic table. You know, other family members were giving out food, sandwiches and chips, and their kids were running around playing. And she started telling me about Amerie.

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Speaker 4: She was just. Like a sweet soul. She loved to draw. She loved to bake. She loved a boy band called BTS. She just. She was just very happy all the time. She loved her brother. She was just so outgoing. Sweet.

MG: How was Laura holding up in all this?

JOANA DRAGHICI: Laura says she's trying to keep busy. You know, organising the rosary gatherings and helping out with funeral arrangements. That's something families still have to deal with right now. Her kids were very close to Emory. So she feels she has to be strong for them and the rest of the family. But Laura's brother, Amerie's dad, was in at the rosary gathering that night and neither was her mom.

Speaker 4: I think he's still in shock. He says he thinks he's still in shock. So he's okay. She's definitely, I think, taking it harder. I mean, I don't know. She's a mother. You know what what do you how do you handle it? I mean, she's. She was bad, really, really bad. But I think now she's just doing what her mother does and she's just trying her hardest to put her feelings as much as she can on hold to, you know, to do what she has to do for her daughter, you know.

MG: I mean, it's unimaginable. How did they find out that their daughter was one of the victims in this shooting?

JOANA DRAGHICI: When they got word of the shooting, they all rushed to the school and Laura went to, but they couldn't get any information there. And if you can imagine this, Matt, right across the street from the school playground, there's a funeral home. Officials took the kids who got out safely there. And that's where Amerie's dad went to try to find her.

SOUNDCLIP

So my brother was actually inside the funeral home with all the other kids trying to calm them down. Two of my cousin's kids were in there, so he was waiting with them and just hoping that, you know, she was going to go in there after so long they were making everybody leave and stuff. We just went to the hospital. We didn't really know where else to go. And they kept coming in and saying names of children. And her name was never called. So at that time was when I want to say, was Governor Abbott that did a kind of a press conference. And my sister in law was there. And they said that if you hadn't found your loved one by this time, there was still kids that were deceased at the school. So we left from the hospital because they had said all the kids that had been there were accounted for and she wasn't one of them. So we left. And then we went to the Civic Centre. We had people go to the high school. We had people just kind of everywhere looking for her. And then we ended up just staying at the Civic Centre until they they told us that she was deceased. Just hours. I don't even know how long we were there. Maybe three hours was, it was long time.

MG: So there were about 600 students at Rob Elementary School. And you could imagine that every parent must have felt that same sort of panic that we just heard about there. You spoke with one of the fathers of one of the students. What did he tell you?

JOANA DRAGHICI: I met Francisco Ramirez at the town square. He was with his daughter, Lourdes. She goes by Lulu. She has long, curly hair and is tied up in pigtails. Francisco has a long beard and he was wearing sunglasses, but his chin would shake when he would get emotional describing that day. There was an award ceremony that morning. Lourdes was on the honour roll and Francisco was actually working in Del Rio, about an hour's drive from Uvalde and Lourdes, as his mother called him, to let him know there was an active shooter at the school.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I just got in my pickup and I drove over here as fast as I could. And I kept scrolling through my phone that through the pictures, pictures I have of her of she's my little sunflower. I kept scrolling through pictures of her just looking and praying that she you know, she's all right.

VOICE 2: We were at lunch. We went on lockdown and we had to go behind the stage. We we also heard some gunshots. I was feeling nervous and scared. Some of my friends were crying because I'm one of their parents in there, you know, what was going on. And then like when the police or the FBI came, they said it was clear. So we can come out of the school, we didn't bring our backpacks, our lunch boxes, and we had to leave everything at the school.

VOICE 1: And I get to the house. She just runs to me, starts crying. And I just. I just pick her up. And when I hope. [unintelligible] I always gave her big hugs. But this all just... It just they just felt I didn't want to let go. And she didn't want to let go. People started crying. You know, we had just walked into her classroom. I'd be the one missing her today. Her name would be out there on the cross. I'm so very fortunate. I have some other friends. His name is Haciendo Casares. He lost his daughter, Jacqueline Jalen Casares. And I saw another man just now that I know him. And he lost his granddaughter. Another gentleman, I know his son. I used to play high school football with him. That man lost his grandson. Everybody knows somebody that lost somebody. And I feel guilty because I can't help but feel guilty that, you know, I you know, they don't have their children, their grandkids, cousins, brothers, sisters to hold today. Right now. And and I and I do. I can hold her.

JOANA DRAGHICI: And what he said about guilt. Matt That's something I've heard over and over again from others, too.

MG: And as he said, everybody knows somebody in this town that's been affected by this.

JOANA DRAGHICI: That's exactly it. Everyone in Uvalde is grieving right now because everyone is connected somehow. And even if they're not very close, they see each other, you know, at the baseball games or at the local Wal-Mart. Remember Amy Perales who brought me to the rosary? Well, she, too, has friends whose kids were killed in the class. She also knew the two teachers who died that day, Omar Garcia and Evo Morales. They all went to high school together.

SOUNDCLIP

She was older than me. I always thought she was so beautiful, so cool. You know how that kind of little like an all kind of thing. So it's just it's just this is I don't know it's crazy to process. And then with Eva, she was younger than me and same thing, you know, I just remember seeing her little smiley face all the time. They were both very well-liked then and even now, just very loving and and caring individuals. That's that's how I remember them. So it's just sad, you know, that this is what their future would come to.

JOANA DRAGHICI: So this has really affected their family because Amy's older daughter became friends with Eva's daughter years ago, and they're still best friends now. So everyone here is interconnected. And actually, Amy went to Rob Elementary School years ago and she knows that neighbourhood well.

MG: What is that neighbourhood like now?

JOANA DRAGHICI: It's a modest neighbourhood with bungalow type homes. The police had the streets blocked off leading to the school. So when I was walking to the press conference there, I could hear chickens in people's backyards and roosters crowing. Most of the homes there either have a cross on their front lawn or the American flag. And Amy says there's also a lot of history there.

SOUNDCLIP

So that neighbourhood is very rich in the Mexican heritage. A lot of the houses that are there, the parents that are there, it used to belong to their grandparents, you know. So, I mean, it's just the roots. You can see that in those neighbourhoods, the roots of the grandparents that were the ones that came over from Mexico. So you see that dynamic there as far as like the culture of of how important Uvalde is to so many people because that's where their roots are and you can see that in that neighbourhood especially.

MG: So this is a community that has been torn apart by this tragedy. And now there are a lot of very pointed questions about the police response to the shooting. In that community that's so tight knit. How are they reacting to the news that police are admitting they made a mistake, that police waited over an hour to enter the classroom?

JOANA DRAGHICI: I asked Amy and Francisco and Laura about this, and they're conflicted.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: You know, they're only human. They can be trained, but they can't be prepared for these types of things. So, you know, we need to pray for everybody because what these officers and first responders had to see is something they're never going to unsee in their life. I can't imagine how they feel having to respond and having to know that they're going into a line of fire, literally. But I do feel, you know, like somebody didn't do their job correctly. I feel someone needs to be held some sort of accountable for all this. You know.

VOICE 2: It's just heartbreaking. I mean. I'm not going to say law enforcement. They, they're heroes. They they went in there. It's it's it's just a conflicting, you know, you can't help but be angry about their reaction time. But then at the same time, you also have to consider my my cousin was telling me his buddy that a sheriff's deputy lost his daughter, you know, and he those are classmates of my cousin. Right. I mean, it's just they are part of the community.

VOICE 3: There are individuals that are on the force that have roots here in this town. And so it's so hard to wrap our minds around what went wrong. Like why? But from what it looks like, they failed miserably. And of course, you know, our community wants answers and so hopefully we'll get those answers.

MG: Yesterday, the Department of Justice said that it would investigate the police response to the shooting. So that might help get some of those answers that she's talking about. Beyond that accountability, though, what are people looking for? What do people want in the community?

JOANA DRAGHICI: A lot of people are still trying to process what happened, Matt, but Amy has some thoughts about what the community needs.

SOUNDCLIP

We need everybody's continued prayers for the community to get through this. And obviously, we need we need change. We need change. And I am hoping that change happens without hate. That's what I'm hoping for. Because I'm afraid it's going to trigger a lot of feelings. So I just pray that the community gets through this with without the anger, because it's hard to not be angry over it. Uvalde has always been known as a strong community. Despite the differences people have within the community, we're all very proud for being from here. So, you know, we are we don't want to be remembered for this tragedy, you know? But I mean, I'm sure we will. But I'm I pray that out of this tragedy comes change to prevent this from happening anywhere else. And then that's what we're remembered for. You know that these little souls that were taken and our teachers, that they were the catalyst for the changes that need to be made.

MG: So she said change a number of times there. What are people in Uvalde telling you about what that change should look like?

JOANA DRAGHICI: That seems to depend on who you ask here. Some people are calling for gun control. Other people are saying more guns are needed. We're in Texas and a lot of people here love their guns. When I was walking outside the school, I bumped into an older man, Bill Brown. He was carrying a bouquet of flowers and he was heading there to pay his respects. His daughter is an elementary school teacher and he told me he thinks teachers should be armed. He also said something that stuck with me. He said, If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. I also met a high school teacher and she thought arming teachers is where Texas is heading and she had no problem with that. But then again, Francisco was livid that politicians are bringing in stricter controls. He said to me, What's wrong with this country? If an 18 year old can go into a store and put three items on a counter, a pack of cigarettes, a six pack and a gun? The only thing he can buy is the gun. And he had a problem with that. But this debate has gone on for a long, long time here. And what I can tell you is that many people don't want to have that conversation right now. They don't want to talk about politics. They want to be left alone, to grieve and to get the help they need to be able to eventually start to recover from this.

MG: And what about those services? Are those services that can help the community make its way through this being offered? We heard in Buffalo just a couple of weeks ago after the mass shooting in that city that the community there was asking for mental health counselling. Is that happening in Uvalde?

JOANA DRAGHICI: It is. The Red Cross and the FBI are offering counselling to anyone who needs it. And the Civic Centre here also has counsellors from the school helping out. And that's where I met Diana Tijerina and her daughter. They were on their way out from the counselling and Diana's husband was with them too. He's a first responder who was at the school that day.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: When it was first happening. He was the one that, you know, was in the middle of all that mess. He was he was one of those that went in and was pulling kids out. And and he called me and told me. I just started crying. And it's just like this. Oh, my gosh. I can't imagine what the parents are going through. And I, I kind of trying to shut myself off to that part. Like, I don't want to imagine what they're feeling. I don't want to imagine. And I kind of feel guilty, too, because mine. Mine are all safe and sound. Mine were... Thank God that. Mine are good, but my daughter had two of the kids that were killed, used to be classmates. And it's just it's been hard on her.

VOICE 2: Ellie. She was a really good friend. She had been invited to sit right in the front of her, and my grandparents would give her money to go take to the front. And they just broke me down. Her and Alexandria. Alexandria. I knew her since I was in pre-K. She was a really good friend. I thought this would never happen. But they told me just Let it out. Let it out.

VOICE 1: I'm glad we came here. Now we know. Now she knows. You know, they say a safe word. You know, whenever she needs a hug, you know, she'll say that word and just she just wants to hug [unintelligible]. And I'm like, you just let it all out. Just just let it out.

MG: That is so hard for those kids who have lost their friends. You mentioned that her husband's the first responder. She was saying the one who was pulling the kids out of that classroom. How is he doing?

JOANA DRAGHICI: Then he told me he's a veteran and he had to deal with PTSD from Iraq. And she says he knows how to get help. They were actually just getting in the car to leave. And I chatted with him for a second outside the car window.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm fine. I'm just glad I could help. That's it. And that's all I have to say. This is our town and. I'm glad I was able to help.

JOANA DRAGHICI: How do you begin processing what you saw?

VOICE 1: I was able to help and. I'm fine right now.

JOANA DRAGHICI: He sounds like he's still shaken. And as you heard, the community here is shaken and probably will be for a while.

MG: In this moment. Is there anything that is giving people in that community comfort?

JOANA DRAGHICI: Many people here are Catholic and they're turning to their faith. It's the one thing that seems to not have been shaken. A lot of people I spoke to go to Sacred Heart Catholic Church, and that's where most of the funerals will take place in the coming weeks.

SOUNDCLIP

How are you, my friend? Good. Where's your brother?

JOANA DRAGHICI: That's Father Eduardo Morales. People call him Father Eddie.

SOUNDCLIP

I take the approach of not necessarily going to try to explain to them what happened. I can't. And so instead of trying to explain to them, because even if I give them the best answer possible, it's still not going to bring their loved ones back. And that's probably not what they want to hear. For me to try to explain to them why something like this happened. And so I'm there for them. I want them to know that that I will be touching them. I will be holding them. I will be hugging them. I will be praying for them. And so that's what I want them to know, that in it, even in the midst of all of this tragedy, we cannot allow evil to be greater than than good and that there is good in this world even when we suffer.

MG: We have heard so many different emotions from people that you spoke with in Uvalde. How is Father Eddy helping people deal and cope with those emotions?

JOANA DRAGHICI: He says those emotions are normal and even anger that's normal to feel right now. And just like Amy said, he just hopes it doesn't turn into hate. Father Eddie is also struggling with his own emotions. He's known these families his entire life, and now he's burying their children and their grandchildren. And that includes Amerie Garza. Her funeral is tomorrow. And her aunt, Laura Garza, is holding tight to her faith and preparing to say goodbye to her.

SOUNDCLIP

I don't think there's any way to be comforted fully at this moment, but I think the only thing that that's giving me a little bit of, I guess you could say sanity is knowing that she's with my mom. You know, my mom passed away four years ago and I think that when you go to heaven, she doesn't feel scared, she doesn't feel sad. She's not going to remember any of the bad because I believe that, you know, I do strongly believe that heaven's just way better than being here, you know? And it's even though it's sooner than we would have all have liked. She's. She's up there, you know, and she's. She's happy and she's never going to feel pain again. That's me. I guess that's what's giving me hope.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: It's just heartbreaking. Joana, thank you very much.

JOANA DRAGHICI: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Joana Draghici. She is one of our producers here at the. She is in Uvalde, Texas. That is the current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. You'll hear the origin story of Nashville's Old Crow Medicine Show group that took their act from the Ottawa market to the stage at the Grand Ole Opry and hear all about their new album, their time busking for toonies and a whole lot more. That's coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. Back to the American Southwest before we leave, and we're going to leave you with a hymn sung by the congregation at Saint Philip's Episcopal Church in Uvalde, Texas, as that town tries to come together in the face of unimaginable grief. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

[Texas Hymn]

Monday May 30, 2022 Full Text Transcript

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