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The Current Transcript for May 22, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

The demand has just been so overwhelming. It's amazing. They're trying to stay at the grocery store, I think, as much as they can. But supporting local, I think is also, you know, speed factor right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Our food system is in flux. Grocery shopping has gone from a pleasure for many to an anxiety ridden event with line-ups, physical distancing and empty shelves at the other end of the line. There are also problems, particularly when it comes to meat, as meat processing plants have become epicentres of the coronavirus spread. There are calls from farmers and others to dramatically change how that part of the food chain works. We'll hear more in 30 minutes. Also this morning, spare a thought for Regina, a football mad city home to the Saskatchewan Roughriders. Regina is set to host this year's Grey Cup. That likely won't be happening. Even more alarming is the existential threat the entire CFL faces in this pandemic. We'll hear from a super fan. And then:

SOUNDCLIP

They get a lot of interaction engagement [unintelligible]. They don't have that anymore. So every time I wakl past an enclosure there will come over and see what I'm doing because it's just so quiet that it must be pretty strange.

MG: You think you're lonely, quarantined at home. Imagine animals at the zoo without all of us gawking at them. In an hour, how zoos are adapting to this pandemic reality. Imagine a drive-in with giraffes, not movies. We begin, though, with the she-session in the middle of the recession and what that means for working women who are now out of the office and stuck at home. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

Limited childcare risks a ‘she-cession’

Guests: Nicole Bradley, Kelsey Collette, Armine Yalnizyan

MG: Camps are cancelled, school's out in most of the country. Day-care centres are reducing spaces, if they're open at all. Canada's patchwork of child care services is being frayed, along with the nerves of many working parents, particularly working moms. And it's not good news for the economy if women are forced to choose between leaving the home to work and staying home to take care of the kids. This is a familiar struggle for my next two guests. Nicole Bradley has three kids under 12. She's a nurse at a Toronto hospital. Kelsey Collette's is a legal assistant and mother of two in St. John, New Brunswick. Good morning to you both.

NICOLE BRADLEY: Good morning.

KELSEY COLLETTE: Good morning.

MG: Kelsey, let's start with you. What did you do when schools and daycares first closed in New Brunswick?

KELSEY COLLETTE: I think I did what most mothers had to do. I mean, I had to call my employer and let him know that my hands were tied, and, unfortunately, I wasn't physically able to go into the office.

MG: You offered to work from home?

KELSEY COLLETTE: I did, yes.

MG: What happened?

KELSEY COLLETTE: But I wasn't taken up on that. I was told no worries and to, you know, take care of my family. And I didn't hear any more until I was told that there was no longer a position for me to go back to.

MG: What do you mean? I mean. New Brunswick starting to reopen. So what happened?

KELSEY COLLETTE: My employer had told me that he could not wait for me, and that he had moved on. So he just found someone new and replaced my position, but failed to communicate that to me until I actually had reached out.

MG: What was it like for you to hear that you no longer had a job?

KELSEY COLLETTE: It was devastating, absolutely devastating. I have recently just purchased my first home. So to know that I no longer have guaranteed income coming in, it's been extremely stressful.

MG: I can imagine. Nicole, what about for you? Tell me about the work home balance and how that changed for you when the pandemic arrived.

NICOLE BRADLEY: Sure. So I work in a hospital. Once we found out that there was no longer going to be school or childcare — my kids go to a day-care within their school — I get in touch with my employer, and we worked a way in which I would work in the hospital some days of the week and then work from home other days of the week. My husband, his work also shut down and he was working from home. He works extremely long hours and his job. So we were kind of doing that. We tried that for a good eight or nine weeks. And then it was just becoming too unmanageable, especially once the kids started getting involved in online schooling. They're a little bit young to be doing a lot of things on their own. And so we just found that the stress levels and the amount of work were becoming unmanageable. And so I approached my employer about taking an unpaid leave of absence from my job.

MG: Was there a moment when you realised that it was all too much for me? I think that that scenario that you're describing is something that so many parents can relate to. But was there a moment when the two of you just sat down and you said this has to stop?

NICOLE BRADLEY: Well, I do specifically remember a moment just around my kids. And I was I think I had just gone off on a call and I was taking the kids out for a walk with the dog. And I just remember being incredibly stressed, and I felt something in my hair. And I looked at my son and I said, is this like peanut butter or dog shampoo? I don't know what it is. And he just laughed at me and I said, how do I look? And he said, tired and stressed, mommy.

MG: Wow.

NICOLE BRADLEY: And I just that broke my heart. And I didn't want to, from all of the memories that they'll have of this particular time, I didn't want them thinking of me as tired and stressed.

MG: There are these daycares in Ontario specifically for essential workers, and you would be assuming classed as an essential worker, a nurse. Was that an option for you?

NICOLE BRADLEY: I did, yes. It is an option for me. I live in Toronto and we looked into the essential workers day-cares available at the time when I looked at it five days after it had opened. There were already 800 applications for the 120 spots listed.

MG: What about for you, Kelsey? There are childcare centres that opened up again in New Brunswick this week. Is that offering any assistance?

KELSEY COLLETTE: While it is limited. The childcare facility that my boys attended and they were only allowed to take back fifteen children, which is quite a drastically low number for them. And so unfortunately, I actually just found out yesterday that my children no longer have a spot. So daycares are starting to get back open, but it's limited space, so it's difficult to even find a day-care that you can place your children in.

MG: So you went from having a job to not having a job that you went from having childcare spaces to not having a childcare space.

KELSEY COLLETTE: Right. So it's kind of. What do you do situation. Do I find a job first, do I find childcare? How do I do one without the other? So it's extremely stressful.

MG: Do you have friends or family that- I mean, all of this is complicated by the fact that we're supposed to be distancing from each other. But are there friends or family that could try to help out?

KELSEY COLLETTE: I do have lots of friends and family that are supportive. However, I come from a very large family and my parents have younger children to care for themselves and they're also still working during this. So it's very limited. I really don't have any options of where my children can go.

MG: Nicole, you decided that you would take on the child care. How did you and your husband work that out to this, figure out who was going to put their career on pause for the moment and handle what was going on at home?

NICOLE BRADLEY: So my husband has a quite a busy job and he is in charge of many people within his role and his income does support the majority of our expenses. So in the end, it was easy enough for me to make this decision that it would be I who take time off.

MG: Easy enough intellectually, I'm sure. But emotionally, what was that like?

NICOLE BRADLEY: Difficult. And I really struggled with the decision for a long time. I think we kind of let the decision go on longer than I wanted to because I was really struggling with the concept of leaving. Fear of a few things, you know, I hadn't expected on taking a leave of absence from work again. You know, I kind of I'd done my three mat leaves and had rejoined the workforce and kind of thought this was my rejoining of the workforce. And then also just, you know, leaving my colleagues are kind of small group that I work within. I was worried about kind of increasing the workload on all my colleagues. And I am worried in some ways, although everyone is quite supportive about what it will be like when I go return back to work. And will things be odd between all of us?

MG: What are you concerned about there?

NICOLE BRADLEY: Just, you know, depending on how long. I think we just have no idea how long this is going to go on for; when I'm going to have child care again. You know, in Ontario, there's still no idea as to when day-cares may open and our day-care is actually located within the school. So I don't know if that would even affect the reopening of that day-care. So I think it's also just, you know. Yes, I'm taking a leave of absence. But what if it extends for months and months and months? Will things just be really, you know, awkward and strange within my work when I return? And I will feel definitely very out of place, I think, in terms of my work and where things are.

MG: You've been trying to figure this out as well, Kelsey, as you mentioned, your how you go about looking for another job now that you don't have this job. How does that start to unfold if you're also dealing with childcare? But you have that. You mentioned buying a house. You have the looming mortgage over your head as well.

KELSEY COLLETTE: That's where I am kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because I just I don't know which one to prioritise. I am nervous that if I go and find a new job, that I'm not going to have the day care to back it up. And on the flip side, I'm nervous that if I do find a day care, but I don't find a job, I don't want to take that availability away from someone who is working and have them put in a position where they no longer can go to their job because I've taken a spot in the day-care.

MG: And you want to work as well. It's not like you don't.

KELSEY COLLETTE: Oh, of course. Yes, I most definitely want to work. I have found out during this that I am not meant to be a stay at home mom. I do not have the mind space for that. But I do very much want to work. It's just I don't even know where to start. So it's overwhelming.

MG: Are you hearing from other friends, Kelsey, who are in similar situations or people in your social circles talking about this?

KELSEY COLLETTE: Yes, I have had quite a few people reach out locally to me. And there are- it always seems to be mothers who are kind of stuck in this place where they don't know what to do. So, I mean, it is an issue. I don't think it's an issue that is being talked about enough because there are so many people out there that are in the exact same struggle or in similar situations.

MG: What about for you, Nicole? Did you ever imagine you'd have to make this choice between going back into the office to work or staying home?

NICOLE BRADLEY: No, I hadn't anticipated a situation in which I would have to make this choice. I had originally when I had returned to work after having my children, I was working part time and then they'd gotten a little bit older, about a year or two, I switched to full time work knowing that I had heard about everything in an order. I had a great day care, a great school, and I had those supports in place and available for me to return to full time work. And now those supplies are gone. It's the very place I had never imagined being.

MG: And we're all living kind of day by day in many ways. Is that where it's most comfortable for you, Nicloe, in terms of not gaming this out to see how long this could last?

NICOLE BRADLEY: Yes, definitely. I think. I think if you try to think to the long term might it becomes overwhelming. So I've just been trying to take it day by day and kind of enjoy those moments right now that I have with all of them. Although there's no that's definitely not every moment is sunshine and rainbows. You know, it's that, like trying to think about, you know, the reality is getting back to work and how that will look like in even in September, what school will look like. And it becomes overwhelming thinking about all those things.

MG: Take care of yourselves, both of you. I mean, this is difficult and awkward to talk about, but it's important because there are so many people and women who find themselves like yourself in this situation. Thank you both.

GUESTS: Thank you.

MG: Nicole Bradley is a nurse and a mum of three in Toronto, Kelsey Collette as a mother of two who worked most recently as a legal assistant. She is a St. John, New Brunswick. Neither of them is working right now. They're at home taking care of their children. Canada has lost more than three million jobs during this pandemic, according to stats can. The prime minister has acknowledged the childcare is essential in getting people back to work. Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson fellow on the future of workers. She's been listening in Army. And good morning to you.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what you've heard from Nicole and Kelsey?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, you're hearing it live and in technicolour the catch-22, that is the recovery from the pandemic: no recovery without more women returning to work and no women returning to work without childcare. I have coined this terrible portmanteau that I hate the sound of, but it captures everything: the she-covery. No recovery without a she-covery, no she-covery without child care. And we just can't seem to see a clear path from here to there without more pieces falling together by magic. It seems like.

MG: Another portmanteau that you have coined, or at least been using a lot logic, is the she-cession, which is a female led recession. You talked about this on this program, it seems like months ago. Just briefly, what is that?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, this is the first recession globally that has ever taken place through the service-led economy because we were shutting down all nonessential transactions to contain the contagion. And what we discovered is most of those jobs that are not economically essential transactions are held by women — and they are tend to be poorly paid and they tend to be not very protected. And they tended to be we're fearing that they might be marginal businesses. We're hearing of a lot of places, including, by the way, child care centres that are maybe not going to make it through to the other side of COVID. I can't remember whether it was Nicole or Kelsey that said, we don't know how long this is going to go on for, but the longer it goes on for, more businesses will shutter and more childcare spaces will disappear. So it's a kind of self-perpetuating circle.

MG: What is the lasting impact that this will have on the Canadian workforce and on this country in general? If women like Kelsey and Nicole are forced to choose whether they go out of the home to work or whether they have to stay home to take care of children?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, there's two answers to your question, Matt. The first is it will roll back decades of gains women have made in the paid workforce. But the second, much more important from an economic point of view story is that we cannot recover the economy. We will be in a perpetually economically depressed level of activity, not reaching our potential until more of these women get back their ability to earn one.

MG: Why is that? Because we heard yesterday from the outgoing governor of the Bank of Canada. He says, well, I don't think that, you know, this moment that we're in is going to be particularly long and he predicts a strong recovery.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Like from his lips to the economy's ears. I like I really hope he's right. But I think here's the issue. We're hearing of companies that were marginal going into this recession with, whatever their full potential of business was, now facing, for physical distancing purposes and because people are a bit skittish about going into either restaurants or hair salons or nail parlours or, you know, whatever, they're going into less volume. So that means people not withstanding the 75 per cent wage subsidy and notwithstanding the $40,000 line of credit, just can't make it to the other side if this goes on for too long. There will not be jobs for them to return to.

MG: When you say that the decades of gains made in the workforce by women could be rolled back. What are those gains that that could disappear because of this moment that we're in?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, it's twofold. 50 per cent of the employed, basically half of the employed workforce were women. So you knock out a bunch of them. How do we get back mathematically to the. And you don't provide a path for them to get back in. How do we get back mathematically at the macro level? Our GDP will be sufficiently lowered and it will stay that way if women don't get back in because women are now an integral part of the purchasing power of household and households fuel, 57 percent of GDP. So with household spending cobbled because there's less income coming in, the whole economy slows down, there's just less purchasing power in the economy. And what that means when women stay at home is what we've seen the mummy effect, even an incredibly. Progressive and equality focussed jurisdictions like Denmark. Once you have a kid, your kid is actually defining feature of where your lifetime trajectory of earnings goes. Not for the man, but for the woman. Even in equality driven nations. And when women are- the longer women are out of the labour force, the more that trajectory falls for the course of their life. This is going to be a real problem for women themselves, but also households.

MG: Is this then the opportunity, governments have talked about this, it seems like, for generations for a national child care strategy?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, women have talked about it for generations. Governments haven't.

MG: Well governed governments perhaps have mused about it, but haven't really moved on it.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, that's the point, isn't it? Right. Like we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of the report on the Royal Commission on the Status of Women. We've been talking about this for half a century, about how high quality childcare is an essential feature for the women to have children to be able to reach their full potential in the economy. And have those children themselves reach their full potential, you know, with falling fertility rates. We've got to make sure every single child is learning ready when they get to school so that they, too, can reach their potential. And yet we're just kind of leaving it up to the market to decide what are the user fees, where are the facilities. We need a plan for very low cost or free early learning and child care that is not driven by a profit motive that is available for all the people that need it, just like we saw in Ontario. The story that I heard, I think from Nicole that though the province of Ontario offered free child care round the clock for essential workers, but there were 800 applications for 120 spots, shows you sightline on what's going on. This is market failure. We need to fix it.

MG: So in the last minute that we have, do you have any indication as billions of dollars go out the door, the government tries to assist those who are being hurt by this pandemic? Do you have any indication that governments are taking these concerns seriously?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: I think they're hearing it, but how they respond to it, Matt, is the chapter that is yet unwritten in this pandemic and the response to it. How we come out the other side could categorically change the way we function because we have had the veil lifted on what is the essential economy and what the essential economy is. It is propped up by the caring economy. You can't do it without high quality care so that you're not worried about are your kids going to get sick at school or is your parent going to die because they're not fed in the long term care facility. We need good quality, publicly funded services for the people that are too old, too young and too sick to work so that the rest of us can get to it. We've got to get her done. Somebody said on Twitter this morning, this issue of child care is this generation's Medicare story and we've got to get it done.

MG: Armine, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson fellow on the future of workers. Would love to hear from you on this. Are you in the position that Nicole and Kelsey find themselves in where you need to choose between whether you leave the home to go to work or you stay home and take care of the kids in the midst of this pandemic. You can reach us through the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. The CBC News is next. And then we are going to talk about the food chain and what happens when it comes to changing, in particular, meat processing. The beginning of that food chain. We'll hear from farmers and more. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio.

Calls to decentralize meat processing after COVID-19

Guests: Julia Smith, Bob Lowe, Ellen Goddard

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come for football fans keeping score. It is COVID-19 CFL Zero Grey Cup weekend in Regina has been cancelled. The rest of the season is in jeopardy as well. We'll speak with the Roughriders fan in 30 minutes. But first, packing and unpacking the meat business.

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SOUNDCLIP

Well, it's important to keep everybody in business, and it's been really hard on everybody in the economy and in particular the local farmers. The only way you're going to keep them in business is if you go to places like [unintelligible] and independent butchers and cheese, you know, retailers and buy local.

MG: Buy local. That is obviously an important mantra for shoppers in line at Santa Gon's. It sells locally produced meats in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

I want to make sure that if I'm putting money towards the meat industry, that I know that it's ethically raised and that I guess the people that are selling it kind of also support that, like the product that they're selling. Not to mention that I'm sure it tastes better.

I think everybody's rushing to, you know, big box grocery stores and I've had to turn to some of the bigger places or whatever as well. But you know where I can I still try to shop at the shops in my neighbourhood, so that this place doesn't just kind of close up and, you know, turn into a ghost town.

MG: So it's not just the local retail shops doing brisk business. Some small scale farmers are also seeing a surge in demand. Take Shelly Dixon, for example. She's a beef cattle farmer in eastern New Brunswick.

SOUNDCLIP

I have a waiting list right now of people waiting for their size and quarters. But even just regular customers that would maybe normally, you know, buy a couple of items, you know, they'll give me a dollar amount and ask if I can do up a box with different variety of things in it. But the demand has just been so overwhelming. It it feels kind of good that we're able to be part of that food chain and be able to supply, you know, what people are looking for. I think that there will be some of those people that will go back to maybe Costco and whatnot after. But I also think that will retain a good portion of the customers that we've had.

MG: In the meantime, bigger meat producers are having a harder time getting their product to market. Outbreaks have COVID-19 in meat. Plants across the country have meant shutdowns, slowdowns and gaps in the supply chain. The National Farmers Union is calling for an overhaul of a system saying that it's fragile. Julia Smith sits on the NFU's Livestock Committee. She's also president of the Small Scale Meat Producers Association in British Columbia. We've reached her at her ranch outside Merritt, B.C. Julia. Good morning.

JULIA SMITH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What has this pandemic told us about the way that meat is processed and sold across the country?

JULIA SMITH: I think what it's really done is highlighted an opportunity for small scale meat producers for our whole industry. We've demonstrated beautifully that big is fragile and we've seen the vulnerabilities. When you have, for example, 95 percent of your meat is processed in three plants. And so what we have here is a great opportunity for consumers and small-scale producers to come together to really revitalize this industry, which could do so much to revitalize our economy as a whole.

MG: How do you do that? People talk about decentralizing the system. What does that mean?

JULIA SMITH: It means more regional meat production right from farm to plate. As you've heard, there's been a lot more interest in consumers buying direct from farmers and supporting local. But the problem is we have a serious bottleneck when it comes to processing. I could easily scale up my business. I had intended to scale up my business, but I actually found we had to scale back after we bought more land to scale up simply because of the bottleneck with processing. I cannot get enough animals killed and cut and wrapped to meet the demand.

MG: I think for a lot of us, this has been revealing. We are getting a look inside part of the food chain that many of us. Maybe it's cognitive dissonance, don't want to know about or haven't had the opportunity to learn about. So describe what a work line or a dissembling line looks like in a big plant like Cargill. These are the big plants that, as you mentioned, are, you know, slaughtering and packaging 90 percent of the beef in Canada.

JULIA SMITH: Well, I've never set foot in a big plant like Cargill. I probably have just as much knowledge as anyone else who's been reading the news lately. I can tell you how it differs from a small scale plant. Certainly. You know, our smaller scale plants are managing things a little differently and are dealing with much smaller numbers of animals. They don't have assembly lines where one worker job is to take one particular cut of meat out of an animal all day long. It's a much more holistic approach to butchery. There's smaller numbers of workers in large part. There's more plant. And so you have a lot more resilience built into that system. So if there is a recall or an outbreak in one of these small plants, it's nowhere near as big a deal to shut that down and move production into any number of other plants. Whereas when you have a problem at a large plant. It's almost impossible to stop the dominoes from falling.

MG: Your own ranch, you produce mostly pork.

JULIA SMITH: I would produce pork here and I work with a lot of the local beef ranchers.

MG: How has the pandemic affected demand as people change perhaps eating habits, but also change shopping habits?

JULIA SMITH: Well, more people are cooking at home now, which has been great for us. And I hope that a lot of them will continue to do that. Demand is through the roof. I mean, we sold out in March. Three months worth of meat that we had in the freezer.

MG: And are you are you selling directly to consumers?

JULIA SMITH: Yes, we sell directly to consumers. Most of our members do. In the small scale Meat Producers Association. And so it's been good for us. But the problem is we don't have a neat vending machine in our field. We can't just produce more on demand. We need to scale up our businesses. It takes me 11 months to produce a pork chop. And so while it's great that there is this demand, it isn't really going to make any difference for our bottom line. There's only so much product in the field.

MG: Why aren't there more of the smaller abattoirs, more the smaller slaughterhouses and processing plants instead of just those gigantic factories that we saw in the news over the last couple of weeks as the COVID outbreak began to spread?

JULIA SMITH: Well, that's just kind of the way the world has been moving into more centralisation and greater efficiency. And, you know, there's certainly arguments to be made for that. But as we've seen, there's problems with that sort of system as well. So we lost a lot of the support that we used to have for smaller scale processing. But I think we have a really unique opportunity here with coal that we have increased consumer support for these sorts of facilities. We have federal funding and this could really be the springboard that the industry needed to bring back more regional processing and the jobs and economic stability that comes with them.

MG: Would it mean that meat is more expensive? One of the justifications you hear for those enormous factories with workers, you know, working as close together and doing those, you know, rote routine jobs all day long? Is that it's, the word is it's more efficient and efficiency often means that you can sell things for less than it's a lower price. With this increase, the price of meat if there were more smaller plants.

JULIA SMITH: In some cases, I think people would be very surprised to find that it isn't that much more. And sometimes depending on, you know, if you buy directly from the farmer, it could be less than the price you're paying in the grocery stores. But I think the important thing is to remember that we need to look at a true cost accounting of meat production and not necessarily just the sticker price at the grocery store. There are hidden multipliers that need to be considered. When somebody buys meat from a local producer, for example, that money stays in your local economy. When it's meat that was processed at a small regional processing plant. Those are higher quality jobs. In B.C. Certainly butchery is a skilled trade. And so you're really helping to build your local economy and build local food security. Every dollar that somebody spends at my ranch recirculated in our local economy, when you're buying meat that had been processed in these giant plants that are owned by offshore conglomerates, the difference that the profit there leaves the country. It doesn't come close to staying in your local economy.

MG: Just briefly and finally, one of the things, as I mentioned, that this pandemic has done through these outbreaks has pulled back the curtain in a little way in terms of how meat is processed and what happens to those animals. And there has been a rise, not just in this moment, but people saying maybe we don't need to eat as much meat. Maybe we should be thinking more about where our food comes from right at the beginning of that food chain. What do you make of those conversations that people are stepping away from meat because they're learning what happens in those big processing plants?

JULIA SMITH: Well, it's funny, and we say recovering vegetarians are one of our target market because a lot of the reasons why people do step away can be addressed by a return to small scale production and processing. When people see how meat being raised at local farms and ranches and processed in these smaller, safer, better for workers environment and a lot of people are willing to come back to meat or stick with meat. But there certainly is an argument to be made. Maybe we don't need to eat as much of it. And you know, maybe if we didn't, it wouldn't be as difficult to absorb a small price increase and also put others locally grown foods on our plates like, you know, other proteins and fruits and vegetables.

MG: Julie, it's great to talk to you about this. I appreciate it. Good luck and thanks.

JULIA SMITH: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Julie Smith is the president of the small-scale Meat Producers Association and the owner of the Blue Sky Ranch, which is just outside beautiful Merritt, British Columbia. Bob Lowe is the president of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, a rancher himself near Nanton, Alberta. Many of his cattle are processed at the Cargill meat packing plant, which, as we were saying, was shut down for a couple of weeks after COVID outbreak. It reopened at the beginning of May. Bob, good morning to you.

BOB LOWE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When that plant gets shut down, what does that do to your operations?

BOB LOWE: It backstop cattle up. If we can't get the cattle processed, they can't leave our feedlot, so they just eat more and get bigger.

MG: And why is that a problem for a rancher like yourself?

BOB LOWE: What the whole chain, if we can't sell them, then we can't replace them with other cattle. The process comes to a stop. And there's a point in time when an animal begins to cost more. You know, it gets too big. They can't literally can't hang them on the rails. So then then they become greatly devalued.

MG: We're hearing these stories of pig farmers having to call their own animals because they can't send them off to slaughter. Is that the case with cattle as well?

BOB LOWE: No, cattle have a longer life. I guess we can put them on a ration and then just let them sit there for for a long time. If you keep feeding them, you know, a high energy ration sooner or later that causes health issues, but you can change rations and slow them down.

MG: What does that mean in terms of the bottom line for for a rancher like yourself? I mean, farming is often a knife edge at the best of times.

BOB LOWE: Oh, and in a case like this, it means an example is as we sold some of these really heavy cattle. And we got 600 dollars ahead, less than the lighter cattle that we were selling this week. And then they weighed 300 pounds more silver. I mean, you can do the maths.

MG: Julia talks about how the system that it exists right now is a fragile one, that it's too centralised. Is that a view that you share?

BOB LOWE: It is fragile. We've created a really efficient farm to farm to food, or farm to plate system in Canada, well, globally, which includes these big processors not only in beef, but in everything. COVID has shown us where the where the weak link is. And I know to the to these packers' credit, they have spent millions. Strengthening that part of the link. You know, in another episode of this, I don't think you'd see anywhere near the same damage. Nobody expected the COVID thing. It takes a lot of money fixing it.

MG: What's the benefit of having those enormous processing plants?

BOB LOWE: Cheaper food to the customer.

MG: Is that what it is?

BOB LOWE: Just the efficiencies of it. And, you know, we not only supply Canadians, we also have requirements around the world, that we have to, you know, commitments around the world that we have to supply and. A country like Japan, they don't want to have to deal with 30 different little processers if they want, you know. And they can't - the smaller processors and there's a big need for it. And it was proven by COVID - but they can't supply the amount of volume that we would need to meet a market like Japan.

MG: I mean, the other part of this is you have workers at those plants. We've heard from some of them who say they don't feel safe because they told they have to go to work. They're an essential service and they're because you're trying to be as efficient as possible. They're working really close together. Do you have concerns about the workers in those plants and that larger issue of efficiency?

BOB LOWE: Of course. And I think now, like it's a that's a totally different inside those plants now than it was two months ago. And I think the workers are coming to accept that and getting more confident. We can see this in the build up of the number of had to go through the plant every day. And that's just because more workers are coming back to work. They're getting healthy, they're getting comfortable with the fact that the safety stuff put into the plants by by Cargill and JBS or and Harmony. Are actually working.

MG: Julia says that one of the ways to ensure that that system isn't as fragile as it is right now is to create more smaller and medium sized plants to operate, to break up that big monopoly that's run by corporations with billion dollar profit lines and figure out a way to go smaller. Is that is that the answer here?

BOB LOWE: It's a combination. I mean, it's shown that we need more. We'll call it surge capacity. I don't know. You know, we don't need more capacity on a daily basis when everything is going fine, but we need more surge capacity and that, I believe, would come from smaller plants. But, you know, in this world, anybody producing protein and however it gets to the plate is going to be a good thing when we need the whole system. We can't just go away from these big plants and expect to meet our commitments domestically or globally.

MG: Do you think the price - we talked about this or Julia - do you think that the price would go up enough that consumers would be concerned about that price increase if he went smaller?

BOB LOWE: I'm sure of it. You know, when I try and sell hamburger off of our farm, I can't sell it for less than 4.5, five dollars a pound. But in normal times, when you go to the grocery stores, you know, I see hamburger there, two dollars a pound sometimes.

MG: And despite the fact that that money is going straight into your pocket, you believe that people would rather just pay less because it's less.

BOB LOWE: I think yeah. I think most. I think that's how most people shop by their wallet. And then there's nothing wrong. I mean, I buy most of my steaks from Costco, actually. It's AAA sterling beef from the Cargill plant. It's every bit as good as any beef I've had anywhere.

MG: Bob, good to talk to you about this. Appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you.

BOB LOWE: Thank you.

MG: Bob Lowe is the president of the Canadian Cattlemen's Association. He was in just outside of Nantes in Alberta. Ellen Goddard has been listening and she's an agricultural economist at the University of Alberta. Ellen, good morning to you.

ELLEN GODDARD: Hi.

MG: What do you make of what you what you've heard, particularly if you take a look at the size of these plants? They were declared an essential service early on. Was that the right decision in the midst of this pandemic?

ELLEN GODDARD: I think it was absolutely essential that they be declared essential services, if you don't mind copying out the word, however, I wonder if we paid enough attention to the actual operation of the plant to be as proactive as we needed to be, I will say, though, that all the plants put things into place. People gave their workers raises to encourage them to keep coming to work. I wouldn't say the industry was behind, but maybe this is also new and we didn't know what was going to happen, so we just couldn't be as proactive about stopping people from getting sick. When for many of us, the whole business of getting sick seemed a little bit abstract at the beginning.

MG: This is, as I was saying to Julia, offered a bit of a look inside a part of the food chain that many Canadians I think don't typically see, or maybe they don't want to see. What has what's happened in this pandemic taught us about how beef and other meat makes its way from the farm to the table.

ELLEN GODDARD: Well, there's always been issues around meat packing. I don't know if you know about it, but Upton Sinclair wrote a book about meat processing in the United States in 1906, and some of the same issues were raised then. We certainly had the same issues in the E-coli outbreak in 2012 in Canada. So, yes, there is. There is something that people don't think about on a daily basis. But when something comes up and things get interrupted in, their patterns get change. Then they become aware and they're slightly quizzical about, well, why is it that way and why isn't it some other way?

MG: How is it that meat processing became so big and centralised where you have these handful of plants that process the overwhelming amount of meat that people eat in this country?

ELLEN GODDARD: Well, you know, it's quite interesting because I was looking up the statistics in Europe and Brazil and even Australia to a certain extent. But feedlots are very, very efficient in terms of finishing cattle in Canada and the United States. And once you have feedlots in a certain area, then you're going to have bigger plants in that area. If you have much more grassland as they do in Brazil, then they actually have a much more decentralized meat processing industry, which is not to say that they're not having problems and plants aren't closing. But as has been pointed out by your previous speakers, when a big [unintelligible] plant closes, it can have a lot longer tentacles into the economy, into the retail grocery end of things and certainly for farmers. So there are pros and cons, but to a certain extent it's got to do with our land base and are the way we raise cattle and how efficiently we have created a system where cattle are originally raised on grassland but move into feedlots for finishing. And that means the slaughter plants can be more closely located to the feedlots and as a result get bigger.

MG: Is it viable, as Julia was suggesting, to establish more medium sized or smaller sized meat processors?

ELLEN GODDARD: Certainly. And certainly there's the demand and I can see all sorts of reasons why consumers are much more interested in local food and contacting farmers at this particular time. Also, remember that when people get sick in meat packing plants and this becomes an obvious to the public and as a reason for plants closing, then there starts to be a concern about food safety. I dont think the statistic that 40 meat inspectors got sick actually helped people's concerns about that. So then you want to get local, you want to buy from farmers. I and I totally support that. And I shop at farmers markets as well as at grocery stores.

MG: Most Canadians, Bob, talked about price and that, you know, people will be governed in many ways by the wallet. So will most Canadians feel that way?

ELLEN GODDARD: That is absolutely true. Remember, right now, you've got a bunch of people relatively locked down at home who have a bit of time who are interested in cooking because we have no restaurants really, although they're starting to open again now. And so I think people are a little bit more focussed on food right now than they would normally be. How many of them are going to remain looking out these local food supply options when everybody in the house is back at work or school? If that ever happens and again, our lives get busier and restaurants become more available again, I'm not sure. And price is always one of the biggest drivers, amazingly. Canada, although we spend eight or nine percent of our disposable income on food. If you ask people what their biggest concerns are about food, it will be price, safety and nutrition. What about and we have the highest quality food supply and pretty well the cheapest food supply in the world. There you are.

MG: And we just have a couple of seconds left. I thought it was interesting that Julia, who is a farmer, said that one of the things that could come out is maybe we think about eating less meat. Do you think that's a possibility?

ELLEN GODDARD: I definitely think so. There was already a bit of a trend in that way. Does it mean we're going to stop eating meat? No, I don't see that coming for the majority of Canadians, especially since they've been raised eating meat. But I do think that there will be more options. I think most people nowadays have meatless meals more than once or twice a week. I think the plant based products are also getting cheaper. So people are find novelty and innovation and chance to try something different with those products. So I see a mix of things happening.

MG: Ellen, it's great to speak with you about this. Thanks.

ELLEN GODDARD: Thank you.

MG: Ellen Goddard is an agricultural economist at the University of Alberta. Your thoughts on this? Welcome. You can reach us through the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent has what we're going through now and particularly what's happened in the food chain in those meat processing plants. Got you thinking differently about the meat that you eat or maybe the meat you don't eat. You can let us know at cbc.ca/thecurrent coming up in our next half hour. Are you ready for some football? Folks in Saskatchewan certainly are home to the Saskatchewan Roughriders. Regina was going to host the Grey Cup. Doesn't seem like that's going to happen. What is the story around the overall health of the CFL? We will find out coming up in about 90 seconds time. I Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Saskatchewan Roughriders superfan; This aquarium set up video calls at tanks so its eels could get used to people again

Guest: Kaitlin Thomson, Dolph DeJong, Ellen Williams

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Singing]

We did it. We did it.

MG: Listen to those crowds, happier football days, that's what it sounded like in 2013 when the Saskatchewan Roughriders won the Grey Cup on home soil. They were hoping to repeat the feat this year, the 2020 Grey Cup game was scheduled to be held in Regina. And the emphasis certainly is on 'was'. The entire CFL season this year remains uncertain if it proceeds. And that's a big if the Grey Cup will be hosted by the finalist with the best regular season record. Regina will host the 2022 event. Potentially losing the Grey Cup this year hurts in the province where it's said that fans like Kaitlin Thomson bleed green. Kaitlin, good morning.

KAITLIN THOMSON: Hi, how are you?

MG: I'm great, thanks. What does it mean to bleed green?

KAITLIN THOMSON: You know, it's. Being a rider fan, it's just kind of part of who you are. It's something that just doesn't go away. And it kind of it really hurts to think about not having a a potential season this year. And, you know, it's just kind of the lifeblood of Saskatchewan and it kind of just, you know, all the rider nation across Canada is all together. And it's just we all bleed green, I guess.

MG: Tell me about growing up with this team around you. What did the team mean to your family when you were young?

KAITLIN THOMSON: I grew up in a lot of families. So the season tickets that we have now are the seats that my grandma and grandpa have been sitting in since the 50s. We've moved stadiums, but they just kind of took our little section and plunked it over. So it's got the same people around us. They got everything. It's kind of the same. So we've got really good seats behind the rider bench. And I grew up since I was two years. They'll be reference of current. So we drive and it's a two and a half hour drive to the stadium and we would go in with our family and pick up my grandma and grandpa and meet them there. And it's just kind of a lifelong thing. Now I take my kids in and we go with my dad and my husband and my sister-in-law join us now. So it's just kind of a whole family affair, I guess.

MG: How do you get ready? I mean, part of it is going. But you got it. You have to be prepared. You need to be ready for the game. But also the tailgate before. How do you prepare?

KAITLIN THOMSON: Well, you know, half the fun is the drive me at two and a half hours together and everyone's got their jerseys on. And, you know, the number one highway here isn't too busy. Passing vehicles or they're passing you and you see everyone else with their rider jerseys on. And, you know, you just save face it for like the playoffs or Grey Cup. So I don't get that into it for regular season, but it's always a good time. And they have a nice party in the park outside the new stadium. And it's a really beautiful venue. And the energy in there is just kind of unparalleled.

MG: You were there in 2013?

KAITLIN THOMSON: I was. I often say to people that was the best day of my life that the riders on the home break up. And I was there. I was there with my 86 year old grandma and my father and my husband and my sister in law. And people always say, well, what about when your kids are born? And that's much more important day. But you know what? You can't manifest your home team winning a home break-Up. You don't have any control over that. So it was pretty much a lifelong dream of mine and it actually came true. So it was something I'll never forget.

MG: And so in this moment, I mean, were there are so many different things that have changed over the course of the pandemic. And some of them are really serious; people losing jobs and people's livelihoods being affected, people losing their life as well. But there are smaller things that mean a lot to people's lives as well. How did you react when you heard that the Grey Cup may not and might still be possible, but may not be held in Regina this year?

KAITLIN THOMSON: Well, yes, I mean, at this point, I obviously I wasn't surprised, but it does feel devastating to hear. And like you said. I mean, health and safety is the most important. And I realise that on the big scale, it's just football, but it does feel like a huge loss. I think our team was looking really good to have a potential tends to be there this year. And even if it does go forward, it it will be the same. So it felt like a huge loss to everybody for sure.

MG: It's a big hit to the province as well. I mean, what is it like to try- you're driving it. I don't know whether you stay or not, but what is it like to try and get a hotel room on that?

KAITLIN THOMSON: We'd actually- so we've gone a great had 20/20 tickets and we soon after tried to get a hotel room and there wasn't a single one available. Everything was sold out. So you can see right there how big the impact the Grey Cup has. All of Regina. So I know even moonshots about 45 minutes away and some people were booking hotels there because, I mean, you could at least stay a little bit closer. So, yeah. You know, the impact on, you know, being there for the 2013 Grey Cup and seeing that the restaurants and the hotels and the shops and everything, it was just it was so fun to be that everyone's in Ryder gear and everyone's excited. And you can see how big of an impact it would have on the city.

MG: What about this idea of playing games with no fans in the stands? What do you think that would be like?

KAITLIN THOMSON: You know, I have put some thought on that. I think it would be really weird for the players more maybe more than the home viewers. But I think it would be a really strange. It would be hard for the energy level to be what it is, because I really think that the football club has a huge impact on the game. And so it just strikes me as seeming really unnatural. But, you know, I won't say no. I would take some football over. No football.

MG: What about no football? I mean, the CFL is asking for $150 million in support from the federal government. There are real concerns that this league - and it's certainly not in Saskatchewan where fans like yourself are there in the best weather and the absolute worst weather - but elsewhere in the country, the league is kind of on shaky ground. Do you worry that this could put a nail into the coffin of the CFL?

KAITLIN THOMSON: I do worry about that, yes. I think I try to remain optimistic. But, you know, like you said, the writers are in a better financial position and we haven't always been you know, our team was saved by a [unintelligible] in the 90s. So I understand the precariousness of a franchise not being able to support itself. And yeah, it does scare me. To me, I was saying yesterday in high school where I had to do a speech otherwise proud to be Canadian and I picked the CFL. I think it's a beautiful league. I think it's quite unique. And I think it's a really big part of our culture. A lot of people don't know that the CFL is so much older, like this is 108th Break-Up. You know, it's a it's a longstanding league. And I think it would be really a huge loss to the country and Saskatchewan. Obviously, I speak for specifically if we didn't have one going forward.

MG: Just before I let you go, what will your family do in the absence of football this summer? We were aware that we wear the jerseys and play flag football or something like that in the back yard. What are you going to do?

KAITLIN THOMSON: I have my jersey on right now just to get in the mood. It's out already. Maybe we will. We were supposed to be in Halifax to watch the theoretically the first the first regular season game in Halifax and see you ever cancelling that trip. So yes, maybe we well we'll play some flag football.

MG: Kaitlin, it's great to talk to you. And I hope if the season actually unfolds in whatever way it is that the writers do great.

KAITLIN THOMSON: Well, thank you so much.

MG: Caitlin Thompson, Saskatchewan Roughriders season ticket holder. She was in Swift Current this morning. She might not be hearing much if any of this music this year. So we thought we'd spin this for you. For Roughriders fans and the refractor nation cross country. This is the CKRM are Saskatchewan Rough Rider pep band.

SOUNDCLIP

[Muisc]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

Everyone, welcome to the Cincinnati Zoo. My name is Jana. I'm a keeper in the African apartments and we are here at [unintelligible] with BB and Fiona. Not to worry about that. We're still here. It actually gives us a little bit more time to spoil them and give them more love, now that we can focus just on the animals. So don't you worry about them, baby.

MG: Ever since the Cincinnati Zoo closed to the public, they have been letting people in through Facebook, live home safari shows. And the first one featured famous hippos Fiona and BB.

SOUNDCLIP

We probably have a lot of questions coming in. Hopefully you're learning as we go and I'm answering some of those questions. We wanted to mention that hippos eat a lot of food. You can see them getting romaine lettuce right now. They also get squash, cucumber, Timothy hay.

MG: Jana's standing on the edge of the enclosure, throwing lettuce and then chunks of cantaloupe into their open mouths. You listen carefully. You can hear them chewing it up. This is an educational video. In fact, I learned that all that food means hippos produce about 10 kilograms of waste every day. Mm hmm. Good to know.

SOUNDCLIP

JANA: Gotten lots of questions about does Fiona really like people? She was raised by people. Seems like she really has a good connection. You think that's cute. There's no doubt in my mind. So obviously there is food here right now. But if there wasn't food and we were out here, Fiona would definitely come say hi to us. She loves people. She doesn't have to know you to love you. But she does have favorites.

MG: And BB is a little less social, if you're wondering. She doesn't like to come like a dog when her name is called like Fiona does. It's just one way that Facebook live session that zoos have been trying to reach out during this pandemic here in Canada. Some zoos don't have to be just online anymore. Tomorrow, the Calgary Zoo is offering timed tickets. Visitors can follow a one way self-guided tour, only outside. The Toronto Zoo has come up with a different plan that involves less walking. Dolph DeJong is the CEO of the Toronto Zoo. Dolph, good morning.

DOLPH DEJONG: Good morning.

MG: How will people be able to visit the Toronto Zoo starting tomorrow?

DOLPH DEJONG: Well, Matt, this will be a whole new experience for folks as they actually will drive right up to our front entry way and that plaza where traditionally they'd purchase their tickets, they drive through a gate, pass our carousel and actually navigate are walking trails or service roads in the existing Zuma Beale routes to literally take a safari around the world in our Toronto Zoo.

MG: A drive through safari. Tell me about how this is going to unfold.

DOLPH DEJONG: So the first step is folks will go online and purchase their tickets there. It's timed entry as well. And then they actually have these stops along the way where animals will be waiting, if you will. You know, starting with our Indian rhinos and our peacocks and then working into our African savanna where the zebras, the cheetahs and the lions reside, and then heading into the Americas with our flamingos and beyond, finishing off in Australasia with our peers whilst skis, horses and the animals that call that area home. So giving people this really unique view that again, for 45 years we've not operated this way.

MG: What is life like at the zoo these days that all of us there gawking at the animals?

DOLPH DEJONG: You know what? It's a really challenging time for for our team. You know, our mission, connecting people, animals and conservation science to fight extinction. It's tough to do that without people. So literally, you know, ten thousand plus people on a given weekend day with lost March break, we lost the Easter weekend. So we're really excited about getting guests back into our zoo and connecting them to the work we do. So we have this drive through tour, as well as an audio guide that talks to the natural history, these animals, as well as the conservation work that goes on that right at their zoo.

MG: It's important to get people there in part because of a financial burden as well. What is this cost you in terms of people not being able to come into the zoo?

DOLPH DEJONG: Well, you know, when you actually look at weeks in the past few months, anywhere between, you know,400,000 dollars in revenue a week, that would traditionally come in through a mix of programs, admissions, retail, food services. So, yes, significant debt is starting to be incurred.

MG: So, you're losing 400,000 dollars a week.

DOLPH DEJONG: So that's what we traditionally would have brought in in revenue through ticket sales.

MG: How long can a zoo go on if it's if it's not making that kind of money?

DOLPH DEJONG: Well, in this case, you know, we're grateful to have the drive through zoo coming online to start offsetting that loss. And like everyone else, we're really eager to get to the Phase Two opening to start resuming something that will resemble our traditional business model. We all know what's going to look different. But again, finding these first steps to get people in safely and understanding our role, flattening the curve and again, grateful for our support from the city of Toronto [unintelligible] purchase in this time.

MG: What is that going to look like when you get the go ahead to open your doors beyond somebody driving through in the car? What is life at the zoo going to look like?

DOLPH DEJONG: So, you know, we're really going to be looking to the medical officers of health first and foremost. But much like you've seen in Calgary, where we might look at routes as far as one way, traffic, not necessarily having buildings open because you have a lot of physical contact points. And how do we start getting people outside? We know the pandemic has been really challenging for folks, particularly urban folks who might be cooped up in smaller spaces. They want to get outdoors. They want to reconnect with animals in nature. And we want to find some ways to do that. And we've chosen the drive as a starting point because we really like what that lets us do as far as social distancing and making sure, you know, we're not going to potentially be a vector for transmission.

MG: But you'd have to do time tickets, I suppose. I mean, one of the things you go to the zoo and people crowd around to see, you have a new baby giraffe, for example, baby long legs. People want to go and see baby long legs and then the crowd around that giraffe enclosure, that won't be possible in future with it.

DOLPH DEJONG: You we're hoping a baby long legs will actually be outdoors in the next month or so and perhaps folks will get a glimpse of her at the drive through zoo. In the meantime, it'll it'll only be Keiko, the male, the father who hopefully will be outside and at the back of the paddock potentially. But yes, that type of experience presents a lot of challenges because people are excited. They want to get close and they want to see this animal for themselves. So it'll be quite some time before we're able to actually open that up at any at any level to really get a ball.

MG: People just ask you quickly about baby long legs. This is important, her birth for, the giraffe species. Yes?

DOLPH DEJONG: You know, this is one of our real challenges, Matt. You know, this species, giraffes, twenty five to thirty five thousand left on the planet. So to have this one born in human care, as important as far as that genetic lineage, but also raising awareness of what's going on, I've COVID-19 has really had a big impact on a lot of accredited zoos who also raise money for conservation initiatives that are abroad. And we've heard about increased cases of rhino poaching and a lot of these places where, you know, we're fortunate enough to share some of our resources and send money abroad are really feeling covered as well. And we need to get people back and make sure we're doing everything we can to have these animals here. But ultimately, we want those animals out there and we want them thrive.

MG: Do you think the animals miss us?

DOLPH DEJONG: You know, that's a case by case basis. Some species, yes. Some individuals, yes. Some species, no. Some individuals, no. It's highly variable. And It's been interesting walking around the zoo, the animals that will run right up, the gibbons in particular come to mind, as they really are excited to see folks. And other animals that really seem quite, quite indifferent whether we're there or not.

MG: They must be really strange walking through a massive zoo like the Toronto Zoo with no people around.

DOLPH DEJONG: It's really, really challenging to get used to you know, I think back to our birthday last year, we had 19,00 people visit our zoo in one day and then to go through and we were, you know, just our key operational staff, the animal care or folks working on each back and our horticulture teams. And yes, we really are excited about getting guests back and sharing what we do. That's that's a key part of why we're here. And to not have the guests around is really, really strange.

MG: Dolph. Good to speak with you. Thank you.

DOLPH DEJONG: Thank you for your time.

MG: Dolph Young is the CEO of the Toronto Zoo. It's hard to know exactly what our animal friends make of this new way of life. Those who study animals in zoos, though, have some ideas. Ellen Williams is a lecturer in animal science at Nottingham Trent University. Ellen, good morning to you.

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Hi, Matt. Good morning.

MG: What do you make of this idea of a drive through safari as a way to get people back into the zoo?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: I was just listening. I think it's a really good idea, I say. I think zoos are so desperate, as they were just saying, desperate for people to come back and really need people back into to be able to keep afloat. Basically, I'm in favour of the animals, the care they need. And I think a really it's a really neat idea. It's a great way of kind of getting a bit of revenue while maintaining the social distance and keeping people safe as well.

MG: What do we know about how animals are doing in these empty zoos? What are they experiencing?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: I mean, you know, obviously it's hard to say. And I myself don't work in a zoo, so it's just sort of looking at reports from the from the zoos themselves and from the keepers. And as is just said, I think there's this real. There seems to be at least this kind of real mix between some people that reporting animals kind of looking out for the people and primates and stuff in particular seem to be kind of calling out for keepers, wanting that little bit of attention. And then we've got other species like the, as was mentioned, an article of the eels, the Garden Eels in Japan, who were sort of kind of just not used to seeing people anymore. And so a little bit like, oh, gosh, you know, what's going on? What are these figures? And then it is entirely indifferent, just exploring their enclosures and doing things they would have done when the people were there anyway.

MG: What are they doing with the eels to climb to make them, I guess, more used to seeing people?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: So they're actually doing video calls with people. This Japanese aquarium appealing for people to call in and they're not doing- I don't think they can see the people, but they can hear them say it's just to get them used to kind of voices and stuff and be aware of people around.

MG: So you have like a face time call with an eel.

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Yes.

MG: Okay. What about the primates? What are they doing? Because we've heard stories again about how they're social animals, how they're doing with the, you know, the disappearance of their audience.

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Yes. So, again, I'm not entirely sure because I haven't been in the room myself. That report seem to be that that just sort of thinking a little bit more attention from the keepers. And I'm sort of looking for that kind of stimulation that way.

MG: You see these videos of the Kansas City Zoo that went all over the Internets of the penguins that are wandering around the halls of the Museum of Art because they're missing visitors during the lockdown. What do you make of that? They're very cute to watch. What do you make of that?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: I mean, you know, if it keeps the penguins entertained, then it's not really doing it's not doing anybody any harm. And this thing, similar things with the penguins in an aquarium where they took them for a walk around, you know, have an elephant enclosure as well. And it's yes, it's a nice idea, you know, as long as the penguins are having a great time and that's all that matters.

MG: You could imagine that there are people who are listening and they're saying, sure. Wild animals or missing humans gawking at them. Do you worry that people are transferring too much of their own feelings onto zoo animals?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, I think we never really, truly know what an animal thinking, so we sort of use what we know about behaviour and things like that to think to get a bit of a grasp of what the animal might be experiencing. And of course, you not inside their heads. And I suppose the only thing is that keepers know their animals really, really well. They spend a lot of time working with them and they put a lot of care in a lot of time into, you know, catering for them. And so I think, you know, the reports are coming from then and you know that the people that really know. So, you know, I think sometimes we do, we do personify things. But there's also there's a lot of soul gone into those reports as well.

MG: I think there are some animals that have had babies in the zoo. We're just talking about the giraffe. The amici try to be long legs. Those babies would have never experienced large crowds. And when the crowds arrive, people are going to flock around that area to see the baby giraffe. How should a zoo go about introducing them to people once the zoos open up?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Yes, that's a good question. I guess to some extent it's something the animals deal with generally, because when animals are born in a zoo, they tend to be kind of kept away from the public for a little while anyway. And then they're then they're released. So, you know, things are going to do what they've always done. I think from a public point of view, really, we need to be thinking about the fact that, you know, these animals, [unintelligible] in the public before and actually if they were born, at the start of this lockdown that's maybe seven weeks or so ago now. So they've had quite long periods without people. So, just be a little bit conscious of, you know, people need to be conscious of what they're doing, you know, and not particularly flocking. I mean, honestly, we need to be socially distancing anyway. And also just being a bit quieter and just being a little bit calmer would, I think, really be helpful for the animal.

MG: You can imagine as well that there are conversations mean they've existed long before this pandemic, but perhaps amplified in this moment around the future of zoos and whether they should continue in this form, whether the financial threat might be a good thing in the zoos, aren't going to be there anymore. Should there be a larger conversation around the future of zoos?

ELLEN WILLIAMS: There's always going to be this conversation, a space. It's important to note really that these are always kind of [unintelligible] in the latest research and there were always, you know, making sure that providing for their animals in the best way possible. And zoos do a good job. You know, they raise a lot of money. They do a lot of things outside of, you know, entertaining the public. They raise a lot of awareness is also I think this is definitely a space [unintelligible]. I think it's just really important that we make sure that we kind of manage people, which is they're going to do is that we manage people appropriately and people manage themselves appropriately when zoos reopen.

MG: Ellen, good to speak with you. Thanks.

ELLEN WILLIAMS: Thanks very much.

MG: Ellen Williams is a lecturer in animal science at Nottingham Trent University.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Mr. Bobby Darin. If I could talk to the animals. It's Friday. Had to play that. That is your show for today. You can listen to The Current LIVE FROM anywhere you happen to be right around the world on your phone or your tablet. You can catch up on the highlights from the program on demand at any time through the CBC Listen app. It's free. Get it wherever you find your apps. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power is the host. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt. A snail walks into a bar. Snail walks into a bar, kind of goes up the bar, looks at the bartender, says, I'll have a beer, please. Bartender says, get out of here. Takes the snail, throws him across the street. 10 years later, snail walks into a bar, crawls up on top of the bar, looks at the bartender and says, what did you do that for?

MG: Did you just happen to have to flip to the animal section of my bad joke book?

TP: I was inspired by the zoos. I tried to avoid a topical one.

MG: You got a big plan for your weekend, Tom?

t: I think so. You know, I think a lot of zoom in. I'm going to do my first zoom trivia game tonight. Have you done any of those things yet?

MG: I have not. No.

TP: They like bar trivia. They do them on Zoom. Now, a friend of mine invited me to be on the team. I hope all of the questions are about Bluegrass or that team is in trouble.

MG: You're the ringer.

TP: I am. I'm a good big show today. Oh, Owen Pallett, Final Fantasy, you know Owen Pallett?

MG: Fantastic.

TP: On the show today, talking about a new record, first in six years. Going to play some music from it. What's your weekend plan?

MG: I'm going to plant tomatoes.

TP: Really.

MG: Hundreds of thousands of different - no, not that many, but a lot of different kinds of tomatoes I love- this is the most wonderful time of the year for me. And the promise of harvest at the end of summer is what I will be thinking of when I my hands are in the dirt this weekend.

TP: I'll take one, Matt.

MG: I'll bring them in for you. Have a great weekend.

TP: You too, buddy.

MG: Have a great show. Tom Power is the host of Q. Coming up right after your CBC News. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday.

Friday May 22, 2020 Full Transcript

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