Provinces beginning to re-open

Guests: Bonnie Allen, Carolyn Dunn, Robert Benzie

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My friends, thanks to our collective efforts. Today, we're prepared to announce that this Saturday, private parks and campgrounds, marinas and boat clubs will be allowed to open and on Tuesday we can reopen retail stores with street entrance that are not located in shopping malls. We'll also lift the a central construction limits to allow all construction to resume. And we need to keep in mind that all of this is dependent on the numbers.

MG: Premier Doug Ford announcing that Ontario is officially counting down for Phase 1 of that province's reopening. From Newfoundland and Labrador to British Columbia. Provincial officials are making similar calculations about how to safely navigate reopening and do so without jeopardizing public health. With us this morning, the CBC's Carolyn Dunn, national reporter in Alberta. Bonnie Allen, CBC reporter in Saskatchewan. And Robert Benzie, the Queen's Park bureau chief for the Toronto Star. Good morning to you all.

CAROLYN DUNN: Good morning.

BONNIE ALLEN: Morning running.

ROBERT BENZIE: Good morning.

MG: Rob Benzie, let's start with you. In Ontario, we just heard from the premier, Doug Ford, on the first stage of the province's reopening. What was reaction to that news that, as he says, the great reopening is underway?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, there's some elation, certainly, and some trepidation, frankly, Matt. So Ontario's economy has been shut down since March 17th. That's when the declaration of a state of emergency occurred. And we are we've all been on lockdown for such a long time that it's felt like a post-apocalyptic film and certainly here in the city of Toronto. And so Ford said yesterday that as of Tuesday, more and more retail shops, as long as you have a street entrance, you'll be allowed to open. So I think that's going to feel a little more like normal. But there is still some concern. I mean, even though the government has imposed about 90 different guidelines for safety and, you know, using hand sanitizers and face social distancing, we're still going to be some concern. The government, for example, didn't say that people would have to wear masks when they're out and about starting Tuesday. But, you know, there's some excitement to this weekend. It's Victoria Day weekend in Ontario. And they're going to reopen golf courses and marinas tomorrow. So there's some happiness at that.

MG: Surely, surely that timing was not accidental.

ROBERT BENZIE: I know there's been a lot of pressure on the premier has spoken about how he's being lobbied by every industry you can think of to lift these restrictions. So, I mean, this he's been under a lot of pressure.

MG: Even ahead of the curve, Bonnie Allen, in Saskatchewan up and running in its first stage in that province for a week. What's been happening there?

BONNIE ALLEN: Well, people are going to the dentist. They're seeing their chiropractor, their physiotherapist, their optometrist, but really not that much more. Saskatchewan was the first province to announce its reopen plan, but the first phase is really actually quite conservative and cautious. It really just includes those medical services that I just mentioned; the dentist, a chiropractor. And then today, golf courses and Drive-In theatres can open movie theatres.

MG: How are people feeling in our province about being able to get out and about even in in that limited way? I mean, going to the dentist seems like an extravagance in some ways for a lot people across the country who can't go unless it's an emergency.

BONNIE ALLEN: Yeah, I think it's the same mix of emotions that Rob mentioned. There are those who have a high level of anxiety and those who are enthusiastic, feel really confident. People who have different levels or perceptions of the risk. People are leaving their houses more. That is definite. You can see that part of that's the weather. It's a trickle, not a flood. And part of it is the fact that the services I mentioned, those medical services that are really controlled environment. So just a quick example. As you go into your optometrist, the door is likely still locked. You have an appointment. You drive there in your car. You call in to see you're there. You said in your car, in the parking lot until they're ready for you. They let you live in your mask. You wash your hands, sanitizer. There are fewer clients. The appointments are staggered and spaced out so that they can do all the disinfecting and the cleaning necessary, which really rigid. It's really quiet. The real test mat will be next week. Again, similar to Ontario with the retail outlet and the shopping malls, whether or not you get, you know, random strangers in unpredictable numbers flooding into stores to shop for shoes.

MG: What's happening in Alberta, Carolyn? The first stage of the reopening began yesterday. What did it look like across the province?

CAROLYN DUNN: Well, certainly the number of businesses and the types of businesses that have reopened is more widespread. But I have to say that it was very slow. It just wasn't having giant rushes into these public places. Customers were taking it very, very cautiously, taking kind of a wait and see approach. And businesses, they still have a lot of [unintelligible], so. Almost impossible to rush as these retail businesses, farmers markets, cafes, restaurants, hairstylists, day-cares, all open up again. Honestly, they just have so many occupancy and cleaning restrictions. I don't think it's going to look like business as usual. Certainly not in the early days of this phase one.

MG: Well, certainly not in Calgary and in Brooks, which are opening slower than the rest of Alberta. Why is that?

CAROLYN DUNN: Well, that's because those are sort of considered the two hot spots. They do have the highest number cases, two or three times higher than the average in the rest of the province. But the real concern is more about why community transmission is continuing in those communities. So they have a staggered opening. That means that restaurants and bars, whole salons not opening until May 27, those day camps, places of worship, not opening until June 1st. Just trying to get the community spread that is existing within Calgary and within [unintelligible] down to what it is in the rest of the province. And obviously concerned that if you start opening those higher sort of transmission businesses or businesses with higher potential for transmission, I should say back up that you're going to cause a spike here. And so public health authorities just made a last minute decision for Calgary and Brooks that they just weren't willing to risk those things. So it's a much, much slower opening in these two in these two communities, in cities in Alberta.

ROBERT BENZIE: Rob Benzie, the Ontario government had laid out a series of markers. What's the premier said was kind of not in many ways a calendar, but a roadmap in terms of things that the province needed to hit before it would start to reopen. One of the things that it needed to hit was around 200 new cases a day. What are the numbers like now?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, there's still higher than that, Matt. But I think what they've kind of passed it behind the scenes. You know, it's still 300, 400 some days new cases, but they're seeing that most of those are in long term care homes and in the broader community, it is fewer than 200, although they haven't released that breakdown to us. But that's what we're assured behind the scenes is happening. All of this is being done in conjunction with Dr. David Williams, the chief medical officer of health, who really does have the final say on this. I mean, obviously, there is pressure on Dr. Williams, but the premier and the health minister and the finance minister of all stressed repeatedly that it will be with public health officials okay that on terror will move through these stages. So the first stage starts on Tuesday. But that stage could last two to four weeks before the next wave of openings can begin. And Premier Ford said yesterday that if any, if there's a spike over this weekend, say, then this won't proceed.

MG: Is it a bit like Alberta, where it's a tale of two pandemics? In some ways you have larger, more rural areas or the province that don't have as many cases and then many more cases in the greater Toronto area or Toronto proper and pressure from one jurisdiction saying, well, we aren't being clobbered by this in the way that other areas are. Let us open up and let us try to figure out a way that we can manage this.

ROBERT BENZIE: Yes, as Carolyn was saying, it's a very similar situation here in Ontario where the biggest concentration is the greater Toronto area. That's sort of the city of Toronto in the suburbs around Toronto that are where all of the or most of the cases are. Yet the premier has said that when Ontario reopens, as it reopens, it will be province wide. And and there is some you know, some people in rural areas are feeling a bit ornery about this because in northern Ontario, there aren't lots of cases in cottage country and, you know, two, three hours north of Toronto and east and west of Toronto, there aren't that many cases yet. The premier has insisted that he wants a one size fits all opening for that. And I think that's because they're concerned about, you know, people flocking to different area. And if all of a sudden something, you know, something is open, you know, an hour from Toronto, everyone drives there to do their shopping or whatever, and they're just a bit worried about that.

MG: It seems to be playing similarly in Saskatchewan, Bonnie, where there are more cases in the northern part of the province than there are in the south, particularly around a lot. What's going on there?

BONNIE ALLEN: That's right. Although it's different in the sense that our urban populations are larger centres. Regina Saskatoon have very few cases. There is really one active case in Regina and it's actually the rural, remote, sparsely populated area in the northwest that has a troubling outbreak. So I think right now we have about 180 active cases in the province and 85 percent are in the area around the village of La Loche and Clearwater River [unintelligible] Nation. That's a predominantly indigenous community. Add it all up, about 4000 people. And the outbreak traces back to an oil sands camp north of Fort McMurray. So when a worker returned, it spread into the Long-Term Care home and then really the virus spread quite quickly. And leaders have pointed to the fact that they have overcrowded homes. Families mingle and mix frequently. They had some trouble getting young people, they said, from sort of obeying the social restrictions. They think they've turned a corner now that the cases are starting to lower, even though they have stepped up their testing, doing door to door testing. They're quite aggressive. And the community, and that would include the village leaders and as well as the First Nations leaders, have imposed curfews. They've also hauled in RV campers to act as isolation unit. So if someone does live in an overcrowded home and can't - who is infected but can't keep the rest of their family safe, they can move into this camper. And for couch surfers or for homeless people who sort of move from home to home, they've also set up mobile units or portable trailers to serve as, you know, impromptu or makeshift homeless shelter. And actually, last week, the community leaders took the initiative to close the liquor store. And that's unprecedented in the province and really the country where for the most part, liquor stores stayed open because people had said that it would be too dangerous to chronic users to withdraw alcohol. But the community was concerned that people were congregating and drinking together. So they asked the province to shut down liquor stores and very quickly, through an alcohol management program into place to give daily servings to those who are chronic users.

MG: The premier, when I spoke with him, Scott Moe, said that's what's happening in the north would not delay what's happening across the rest of the province. And people have said that this is an example of showing that they're are many ways two provinces within one province. How does what you're describing fit into the larger issues that northern Saskatchewan is already facing?

BONNIE ALLEN: Yes, well, there's sort of this too serious issues related to that. It is through the public health officials have said that there will be localised outbreaks even as we move forward in the weeks and months to come. And they will have to manage them. Just because there is an outbreak and one thought doesn't mean the whole plan has to be derailed. But right now, there's a real yourself divide with people in the south clamouring on people to move quicker to just to get open. And there's checkpoints on the highways and travel restrictions in place that prohibit people from the north from coming south and vice versa. And it's creating a bit of an us and them situation. And certainly there are racial tones to that because the North is predominantly indigenous. Chiefs are saying that they feel that it's discriminatory, that they're being locked up. One mother this week said she feels like a caged animal. So this sort of northern alienation and some of the tension between indigenous communities and non-indigenous has been exacerbated by that. And another issue that that is where it's come to the forefront in dealing with the suicide of a 14 year old teenage girl in Water [unintelligible] First Nation. Is it some of the chronic issues such as suicide, because we know that suicide is the leading cause of death for people who just 10 to 49 in northern Saskatchewan. That it could be made worse is that people are saying that there are more mental health calls and that they're worried that some of the services and programs and ways that they can respond to that are being hindered by the pandemic restrictions and that people's anxiety is increasing, that they're feeling more isolated. So certainly I would point to alienation and as suicide as two key challenges right now.

MG: Carolyn, we spoke a lot about the Cargill plant, the large meat processing slaughterhouse that was the single largest outbreak site of COVID-19 in this country. It reopened last week. New measures in place. How's it going there now?

CAROLYN DUNN: Well, you know, it really was ginormous outbreak. There were a thousand cases, nearly half the workforce, three deaths associated. Plus this week. We also learned that about half of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency inspectors who were in there inspecting the meat also contracted the coronavirus. There are some signs that or at least a feeling that the enhanced safety measures that they put in before reopening the plant are working. Certainly, there's a bit more comfort among the workforce that I have spoken to in those days since it has opened. The cases of recovery seem to be going up higher. So basically what they're doing is they're putting plastic shields in between the work stations. Previous, these people worked elbow to elbow, shoulder to shoulder infection was sort of inevitable. So now they're basically, you know, almost like they're behind, you know, those grocery store shields.

MG: Plexiglass.

CAROLYN DUNN: Yes. That's exactly what it's like according to the pictures anyway. They're also staggering breaks, you know, access to common areas. They have imposed the commuting rules so that there's not cars full of four to six people coming to work all together. So having said all of that, it's only been a couple of weeks. And we know that the incubation period for the Corona virus could take that long and longer potentially to, you know, to happen. So we're not going to know the full impact of the plant reopening and all of those people mingling again at work for a little while for a number of days. And so I think that there's cautious optimism, but it remains very cautious until we see until there's some time with these people, you know, going to work and continuing to be tested.

MG: We have just a couple of minutes left. I just wanted to, and I'll start with you, Carolyn, just to talk about how the leaders are being perceived in the province. So briefly, how is Jason Kenney, the premier of Alberta, being perceived in this crisis?

CAROLYN DUNN: Well, he didn't he hasn't had the Corona virus bump that we've seen from Doug Ford, for example, the province reopening or in the province provincial handling of the crisis is getting pretty good marks. You know, there's a few bumps along the road, including Cargill and some issues with substandard PPE being handed out. But across the board, you know, the province is getting fairly good grades. Kenney is not benefiting from that as much as you might expect. And that very well could be because his government was in a battle with the doctors. No billing they had bricked up their contract. And literally, can you think of a worse political storm to be in a battle with doctors and then have a pandemic break out? You couldn't have written it for a political novel, you know, a worst case scenario. And I think that that is probably one of the big reasons why he's not sort of writing a slightly higher political way from, you know, from handling things. I would say fairly well and competently in this province.

MG: What about in Saskatchewan? Bonnie Allen, briefly, how is Scott Moe being seen?

BONNIE ALLEN: I think that premier got Mo has actually fared quite well, as has been applauded by most people up to this point. I mean, a lot is in his favour. Saskatchewan was not hard hit. Part of it is geography and timing. So he put in the same measures as other creameries. But because the virus spread here, you know, later we were able to sort of not get as many cases. The one tiny note I'll make is that this week has been a test because RCMP did attend a Sundance ceremony out of First Nation. And the First Nations are readers are very upset seeing that public health orders do not apply to their traditional ceremony. Scott Moe says, yes, they do. And so indigenous relations have always been a flashpoint for the fast party government. So in the days ahead, that clash, we'll be watching that one.

BONNIE ALLEN: Rob, just a few seconds for you. How's Doug Ford being perceived in Ontario?

ROBERT BENZIE: Well, according to polling for our newspaper, Matt, Mr. Ford, who had a minus 49 percent approval rating last July, is now has a plus 59 percent approval rating. And that's largely in part of the fact that he has been very methodical and canny and cautious and transparent. They have been communicating daily with us as much as they can tell us when there have been snafu like on testing and on the long term care problems that had been devastating that they have fessed up to them. So I think that it's helped him in the polls. Whether that helps him in an election two years from now, no one can say, and I don't think anyone would be crap enough to predict right now. But certainly the polling suggests he is doing much better than he was.

MG: Good to speak with you all. Thank you. Have a good weekend and stay well. Thank you. Carolyn Dunn, CBC National reporter in Calgary. Bonnie Allen, CBC National REPORTER in Regina. And Rob Benzie, the Queen's Park bureau chief for the Toronto Star. Well, the CBC News is next. And then it's Friday. It's also our last extended edition of The Current as we head to a long weekend in many parts of this country. So some feel good stories from across this nation of ours. We'll speak with some of Canada's best and brightest coming up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Three of Canada’s brightest on who we’ll be after the pandemic

Guests: Clara Hughes, MadeleineThien, Mohamad Fakih

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Coming up, Dave Morley and the Vinyl Cafe with Stuart McLean. But first, we got this Canada.

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MG: What a world we are in. In a matter of months, thousands of Canadians have died from COVID-19. Tens of thousands have been sickened. Loved ones have agonized at being unable to see family and friends. And here we are with the spread of the virus slowing, in some places, governments are beginning to lift restrictions. And yet this pandemic is far from over. Early on in this, we asked some prominent Canadians about how the country might draw on its strengths to fight the virus and endure the pressure that it has put on all of us. So two months later, we're asking what the country needs to do to get through the months ahead. Clara Hughes is an Olympian and a founding spokesperson for Bell's Let's Talk campaign. She's in Canmore, Alberta. Madeleine Thien is an award winning author. She's in Montreal. And Mohamad Fakih is the founder and CEO of Paramount Fine Foods and a community leader and philanthropist in Toronto. Good morning, everyone.

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Good morning, Matt.

MADELEINE THIEN: Good morning.

MG: Madeleine. You're living in Montreal. That's the epicentre in many ways of this country's outbreak. How are you feeling today compared to when we spoke, way back in March?

MADELEINE THIEN: I think it's a tough question, you know, I feel in some ways that we become more certain about some things, but there's been a widening bubble of uncertainty about the length of the situation that we're in and the kind of how much we've got a kind of hold fast to the taking care of each other over a much longer term than we might have anticipated. I feel worried about Montreal. I hear also full of, you know, comradery, with my fellow city dwellers? And I think we're all struggling to figure out how to step back from social life for the long term. But also how to support one another.

MG: How difficult is it? You talked about the importance of of in a holding tight to some of those coping strategies. How difficult is it to hang on to those the longer this goes on?

MADELEINE THIEN: Just being in the city, I can see that it's really difficult. And I think one thing that's hard is that a lot of the pain that's happening with COVID is quoted in the media all the time. But there's a lot of private pain. There's a lot of suffering we're not seeing that's in hospitals and nursing homes and in the streets around this. There's almost a feeling of things going slowly, inching back towards the way things were. And I think it's that's what's difficult for everyone is to keep in mind that this is an ongoing struggle that not everyone can see. And so many people are taking care of so many parts of life, economic life, older parents and children, health issues, etc. and trying to keep that visible or not being afraid and not afraid of each other, but the caring for each other. I think that is an adjustment that we're only learning how to make right now in this moment.

MG: Clara Hughes, how are you coping with this new reality that we find ourselves in?

CLARA HUGHES: Well, you know, we're in a very different reality here in a small mountain town. We're surrounded by some of the most beautiful nature and mountain scape on planet Earth. And, you know, the bears have come out of dens. The snow has melted on the trails. Visitors are starting to come as the national park opens up partially soon. And recently, the provincial backcountry opened up. They had a road blockaded off going into Canada, this country, up until probably, I want to say, 10 days ago. And until that time, you know, people were riding bikes up there, walking, running and recreating, local people, in unsafe ways. But we've seen a big difference in terms of, you know, how many people are walking around the block here. There's less people on the streets and more people going into the back country. And personally, you know, I'm fine. There's, my belly is full. And I'm very aware of the privilege that we have to shelter in place, you know, to a large extent and have the privilege of not having to go out. But there's a lot of people struggling and, you know, my in laws, my parents, my family is in America. My mother is 81 years old in Winnipeg. I've been doing online grocery orders for her, speaking with my sister regularly, who lives alone and is quite isolated. So we have a lot of worries for friends and family around North America. My sister in law's family is in Italy, her two nephews. So we're deeply connected not only to friends and family, but also friends in faraway places like the Eastern Arctic. I was in Cannex, [unintelligible] in Nunavut in Northern Quebec in January and spent two weeks with the community there that is like family to me. And I've been in regular contact with them too, because their community of 800 people that, you know, my good friend Nancy talks said to me last week, she said it's coming, Clara, as soon as the travel restrictions are lifted, it's coming. And so I worry so much about the remote communities that do not have that infrastructure. So like Madeleine said, you know, as much as maybe you don't feel it directly, we still have to so clearly understand we need to look after and protect each other as best we can.

MG: It's a marathon, not a sprint. That's what we keep saying to ourselves. And that's what we're told. You're an endurance athlete and we've talked before about how you push through that threshold. Do you have have any advice as an endurance athlete for the marathon that we're here?

CLARA HUGHES: I don't think it's a marathon. You're a runner. I think the marathon is too short. I think this isn't even that double ultra triple run. You know, those 200 mile races, I think this is the unknown distance. And there is actually a race on the velodrome that I used to call the unknown distance race. And I hated it because I didn't know when it finished. And as an athlete, you know, I look back at my athletic life and honestly, I don't know how much of sport has prepared me to handle this. I think more what I've been doing the last five years, which is longest in hiking, I've, you know, spent months on trails. I hike the Pacific Crest Trail from Canada to Mexico alone. Last year it was a 4300 kilometre long hike and I walked for 100 days solo. And I think that prepared me more for that because that was long. And I spent long periods of time alone. And, you know, just to, like, really connecting. I think what's helped me most from that experience is the ability to connect with gratitude for the smallest things, the smallest little shifts that can bring you something positive. And I think that for me, is super helpful in that time rather than seeing it as this race and this thing, I have to, you know, endure and overcome. I think this is too long and too extended and too big for that mentality.

MG: Mohamad Fakih, we know that many restaurants and other small businesses in the retail sector have no idea if or when they'll serve customers again. How stressful is that for your industry?

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Well, thank you very much for that question. In the beginning, I really went to a dark place. It was very stressful. But I realised that my culture, my entire culture that I lived by that my whole life as people purpose planet before profit and the profit will follow. And I was under attack. I didn't know that they can live by that during this pandemic. But then I realised right away that I came out of a civil war. And I came to Canada to live a better life to the family. And I'll never forget when we lived in bunkers and I used to come out of the bunkers with the family and my dad's face used to be smiley and used to say, I know everyone can see the light, but we'll build this country again, open more businesses again, and we'll hire more people again. And to everyone out there, the light will come. I know it's very difficult to see it, but trust me, I've been in bunkers and these were not good. And the Canadian dream is all about us helping each other. The Canadian dream is all about. If we feel that there are so many vulnerable out there and we look at our situation, I mean, we're much better off. And that was what did that to all of us. We came out to help. We came out to stand by them, to fundraise for them, to feed them and to make sure that everyone is okay, not only ourselves.

MG: Tell me about that. Because you were working with local food banks who donated food to frontline workers during this pandemic. You've worked with your own employees as well. Why did you decide to do that? To take that route out of that dark place, as you say, that you were in.

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Because they'll give you that strength that you actually you're better off and you see the most vulnerable and you want to come out and help them. And I'm wired that way. I was brought up in a house where helping others is what brings you that happiness. Helping others is what brings you the blessing. What keeps you healthy is to look after someone else. I'm actually wired in a way that if I had a bad day or a bad week, the only way that would make me feel better is come out and do something for someone else. And I'm sure other people will do something for me. And what impressed me the most is not what I did. Seeing young leaders that I've mentored the last four or five years of my life coming out and seeing the opportunity of themselves doing something for others. Seeing young people coming and calling me and saying, can we do it together? Can you show us the way? How can we feed the frontline workers? And [unintelligible] The restaurant industry suffering. People are stressing over rent, but yet they're using their kitchens to feed others when their cash flow is tight. But that's the Canadian dream. And that's why I picked Canada. Where people forget about themselves or actually think about the bigger picture.

MG: Madeleine Thien, have you seen that generosity in your own circle in your community?

MADELEINE THIEN: Yes, I have. Very much so. I mean, my circumstances are a little strange in the sense that I teach at the City University of New York. So when the university was shut down, I came back to Montreal. And if I'm teaching remotely. And that has been a very emotional experience to try to keep a kind of routine going with my students, with these young writers that I'm mentoring in New York. Some of them living in some of the most worst hit neighbourhoods of the city. And there every night, we could hear the sirens going by and also the cheering. You know, for the frontline health care workers. And I think what amazed me so much was even though they were really struggling. They were often alone. They were struggling economically. They had lost a sense of anchor that are you know, the university was providing, almost everyone of them was involved in mutual aid. Many of them were trying to stay in close contact with family that was scattered around the US and under very different situations. And, you know, it's very humbling. And it's so, you know, inspiring to listen to Claire and Mohamad. And I'm seeing my own world. It became a very individual thing to mentor this one person or this other person to try to do my very best for the people I was in contact with. And, you know, in a lot of ways, as a professor and a writer, it was just to be that listening ear and to encourage them to keep observing, to know that their observations are meaningful and that in some ways artists and writers would keep the memory of what this experience is, even if we can't write it in this moment. Our responsibility is to the present, to the reality, to see the complexity and to try to find ways for us to do that. Even though we were distanced and, as so many were, on Zoom.

MG: How do we ensure, Madeleine, that that generosity continues? To your point, we're in a different phase now. And this feels when March when we spoke, things were changing kind of minute by minute. And now we're in this slow grind. So how do we ensure that that generosity that we felt at the beginning continues now?

MADELEINE THIEN: Yes. I think [unintelligible] I personally I think it comes from a kind of imaginative capacity. I feel like each time we see someone on the street, each time we see someone in store or anywhere we were always being asked to do really is to give people space to keep them safe. All we're being asked to do is sometimes wear a mask if we can't make that space. It's kind of fascinating that it's like it feels like an inaction, like a withdrawal. But I feel like that ability to imagine that you don't know what that other person is handling at that moment. We don't know whether they have elderly parents as my partner and I do, that we're trying to keep safe. We've just got to, you know, I don't know, hold that respect for one another. And that is strangely enough, it feels like a very courageous thing to do, because I think people don't want to feel weak. They don't want to feel afraid. They don't want to feel like, you know, that they're in withdrawal of some things. And they think it's hard to shift the mindset to say, no, actually taking care, giving statements, following the guidelines, whatever we're trying to understand slowly changing, of course, that that is a bold and courageous thing to be able to do.

MG: Clara Hughes, this is a test and this is hard. And we've seen people be tested in different ways before. But this feels for a lot of people. Maybe it's a generational thing. It's something that we've never encountered before. Are you confident that Canadians have what it takes to get through this, however long this lasts?

CLARA HUGHES: Well, I am. And I think Canadians are resilient people. I think we're very, you know, very varied group of individuals that come together as different communities, small and large. And there are beautiful, beautiful acts of humanity unfolding. And I think it is absolutely crucial that we don't just roll into this. Okay, now we need to get the economy back and the stuff hyper focus on the economy. That said, quite frankly, that the economy that things spoke about is something for very few people. That is not for the lower socio economic scale of communities, of people that are struggling, that don't have, you know, dividends to get from their stocks. This is about us coming together as people and staying together and realising that kindness and how we get through it. It starts with every one of us. That power and that opportunity is in each one of us. And I've seen it unfold here in our community. I've been in close contact with communities all over Canada and seeing this kindness unfold. And it's a beautiful thing. And I think when people realise it starts with them, it starts with their response and their reaction or their kindness to another person, even if that person isn't being so kind to them. As Madeleine said, you never know the stress that somebody is dealing with. And sometimes you can shift a very anxious, stressful feeling and reality in them to something a little bit more positive with your own actions.

MG: Mohamad talked about going into it. I mean, a dark place. I think we've all been there over the course of this. What is it clearer that you turn to pull yourself out of a moment like that?

MADELEINE THIEN: Matt, for me, I mean, it's creativity, it's movement, movement truly is my medicine. And, you know, the last number of years of my life, I've spent hiking between 10 and 16 hours a day. That's not only is that not realistic right now, it's also not respectful for the situation. And so for me, it's just getting out for that half hour, that one hour of movement, of connecting with the natural world, of being in the forest and being in any kind of green space, being with any tree, any rock, and feeling the energy, the unconditional love of nature that embraces you if you allow yourself to open up to the energy and the love that it gives. And, you know, when I go out, I don't have earbuds in my ears. I am completely connecting to the sounds, the smells, the sights that are around me and allowing it into all of my senses. And I encourage other people that do that in whatever way your body moves, whatever your comfort zone is, try to allow some of that in because it is so healing and so profoundly beautiful. And that truly has helped me through, Matt. And I think it helps a lot of people through when I see people out on the trails from the distance, I see something in them. And sometimes someone can seem so inside of themselves. And when they look at you and maybe they look stressed and if you give them a smile and a hello, it can shift something and it shows a shift, something to offer that kindness. I think it shifts something inside of you. And it certainly helps me to reach out to somebody else's as best that I can.

MG: Mohamad Fakih, you are one of the most optimistic people that I know. And in crises you were there. You're the person who steps up and helps lead us and rally us around. What is giving you hope in this moment right now?

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Well, everything is when we people give me hope. And I think we have an opportunity to do it again. I'm not used to look behind me. I look forward. I learned from what happened before, from my past or from the past of what happened in Canada. But the Canadian dream that they came for is all full of hope. And I think looking forward, we can make Canada better and we can build it where we look more after the vulnerable, the seniors, even every single one. We just realised that us being healthy alone is not a good solution. And us being okay alone and even economically well alone is not a good solution. And hopefully we'll make better difference. Bigger difference. Real difference to people's life. And we all can live better. And again, the solution is to look more after people, purpose and planet. We can't ignore the planet because that's the reason of pandemics. And that's how people will live a better life. And we'll be more caring for each other. And that's very important.

MG: How could we be different, do you think? People talk a lot about what we're going to come out of this moment feeling and but also what we could do so specifically. What do you think, Mohamad, that we could do to make ourselves a better place?

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Well, I think we need to- I always say as a society, as a country, we become what we celebrate. I need to we need to celebrate more act of kindness and we need to celebrate because when you celebrate success, everyone wants to be celebrated and they want to be successful. When you celebrate, act of kindness, everyone. And we need to be more thoughtful as a country, as people, as a community. And that's how we can be different. It's not going to be a different world. After every war in Lebanon, we thought the whole world was going to change. The whole world will not change unless we want it to change. We could actually go back and live the same way like we did before. And that would be a big mistake. We need to learn from what we went through and we need to understand how important for us to say to each other in person, how would we feel so we'll never be socially distance again. And we need to look after the seniors. The most vulnerable. Otherwise, even today is coronavirus, COVID-19. Tomorrow will be something else called differently. We need to use this as a best practise book that we right to deal with things like this. And how can we avoid them, not after the fact. Before.

MG: Madeleine. Who do you think we could be coming out of this?

MADELEINE THIEN: You know, I don't really haven't I know that that for myself, that that and maybe we're all feeling this and then I'm a city person. I am very much at the Jane Jacobs description of cities. I love to watch. I love being around people. I love seeing the life of the city. And I love that so much. But one thing that has definitely happened in the last few months is as our streets have quieted and as I might say early in the morning, I'm just seeing this spring come in Montreal really only just arrived. But I have to say, I've never been so aware of the day to day change in the in the nature around me of our city. And it's been incredibly moving and it's sort of given me a kind of stillness that has been grounding. And it's also, you know, it's like suddenly people were always the foreground for me. And now the background has become the foreground in every sort of the architecture, the trees, the sky, the birds. And I think the interconnectedness of it has been the thing that's given me hope. It's what is so risky about everything. But it's also where we're going to find some kind of strength in that. And, you know, I guess the pandemic has revealed a lot about every single country, about what we've prioritised and what we've left behind. And this revelation, I hope, will change us because there's no way out of this except together. And every part of society that we let fall behind it. It's it doesn't stay encapsulated in itself. Yes. So that's what I hope will come out of this, that we will see what we failed to see.

MG: You said you didn't have an answer. That's a perfect answer in terms of who we could be, where we could go. You are all representing our best in many ways and I appreciate the time that you've given to talk to us and I wish you the best as we move through this together. Thank you, everyone.

CLARA HUGHES: Thank you.

MOHAMAD FAKIH: Thanks, Matt.

MADELEINE THIEN: Thank you, Matt. Thanks, everyone.

MG: Claire Hughes, the only athlete in history to win multiple medals at both summer and Winter Olympic Games. And she's tied as Canada's most decorated Olympian. Madeleine Thien is the author of several books, including Do Not Say We Have Nothing Won the 2016 Scotiabank Giller Prize and the Governor-General's Literary Award. And Mohamad Fakih is the founder and CEO of Paramount Fine Foods and a well-known social activist and philanthropist in Toronto and beyond. Well, coming up, Dave Morley and the gang are back by popular demand. We started playing little excerpts from the Vinyl Cafe in the midst of this. And you said more, please. And so ask and you shall receive a story from the Vinyl Cafe. Stuart McLean coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

Stuart McLean’s Vinyl Cafe: No Tax on Truffles

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current and now a reward for making it through another seven days of this pandemic. We have been airing episodes of the Vinyl Cafe each Friday. Seems like a good opportunity to spend another one. This is the late great Stuart McLean and no tax on truffles.

SOUNDCLIP

STUART MCLEAN: Morley took Sam to the dentist for a check-up at the end of the first week of school. A busy Thursday afternoon they blew into the dentist's office five minutes late. Morley had been running late all day. She looked quizzically at Vicki, the receptionist, and pointed towards the doctor's office, lifting her eyebrows as she pointed. Vicki, who was as usual on the telephone, shook her head, tuck the receiver under her shoulder, and held up 10 and five more fingers. Then she shrugged. What we expect? Morley nodded and headed for the pile of magazines on the table by the door. She flipped past two issues of dental surgery, a Chatelain and a dog eared copy of people. She stopped with a smile of perverted pleasure when she came to the August edition of Healthy Guns. She didn't realise her mistake until she was halfway across the room. Gums not guns. And she returned sheepishly to the pile and traded the healthy gums for The People and then dropped into a regular chair beside the chest at children's toys. She always sat in this chair, so she'd be close to Sam. She flipped open the magazine and settled into a profile of an author who had interviewed people about the dreams that they had had about members of the royal family. Mallie was halfway through a dream involving the Queen Mother and a pack of feral corgis. The dream belonged to a British soccer player. It happened in a Spanish sort of town, explained the soccer player, sort of like the running of the bulls, except instead of bulls, there were these giant feral corgis and the only one running was the Queen Mum. She was running like hell and all these Spaniards lining the street were cheering her on. I think they were cheering her. I guess they could have been sharing the dogs. Morley was considering the implications of this dream when she looked up and realised Sam was not beside her or by the aquarium either. Sam had settled into a chair on the other side of the waiting room. He was glumly swinging his legs back and forth as he rummaged through the magazines. He looked bored and peeved. He finally chose one magazine and dropped the rest back onto the table. Morley squinted at the cover across the waiting room. Epicure. Could be worse, she thought. He could have chosen Healthy Gums. The following Monday, the Monday after the dentist Morley stayed home. The theatre where she works is closed on Mondays. Monday is wash day, everybody happy, well, I should say. On Monday, Mallie does laundry and changes beds and pays bills, and Monday afternoon she goes to yoga. On the Monday morning after the first week of school, Morley wasn't Sam's bedroom changing Sam's bed. And when she put her hand down between the mattress and the bed frame to tuck in his blanket, she brushed against something that she wasn't expecting. Something that should not have been down there. Something smooth and slippery. Something that felt like a thick, glossy magazine. Morley pulled her hand out of there so fast she scraped or knuckles. She stepped back from the bed in horror and she closed her eyes. She looked up toward the ceiling. Oh, Lord! She sighed. Haven't I already done enough? Did you have to send this to me? Couldn't you have sent it to Ben's mum? And then she sighed, and she opened her eyes and ran her hand through her hair. I don't know where I stand on this, Lord. Maybe it was time for Dave to have the man to man talk with a son. Or maybe, please, lord. Maybe this was one of those things that parents were supposed to ignore. Maybe if she ignored this shiny thing, it would go away. But she wasn't going to ignore it. She knew that she couldn't ignore it. And before she knew what, she was back beside the bed and she was reaching down into that dark, tight secret place between the bed frame and the mattress. And she was pulling the magazine out. It was a magazine. She held it up and she looked at the cover in trepidation. It was the July edition of Epicure. It was the gourmet magazine Sam had been reading at the dentist. Because she didn't mention this to anyone, not to Sam and not to Dave, because she decided to let nature take its own course, because she put the magazine back where she found it and didn't mention it to anyone. Dave found himself flying solo two days later Wednesday when Sam unexpectedly arrived at the Vinyl Cafe after school. This is not something Sam ever does. Hardly ever. He hardly ever shows up at his dad's record store, especially after school. So Dave suspected something was up, but Sam didn't say what it was. He walked self-consciously up and down the aisles. He looked half heartedly at some records. He stared at the customers for a while. And then after 20 minutes he said, I'll see you later. And he left as abruptly as had arrived. The purpose of the visit didn't become clear until after dinner when Sam came downstairs and found Dave lying on the couch reading. I need to talk to you. He said. And then he looked around and added, alone. Dave struggled up onto an elbow, looked around the room and nodded. Sam said, I'm a little embarrassed about this. Dave rested his book in his lap. Unknown Legends of Rock and Roll. He was reading about Syd Barrett, one of Rock's most fascinating cult figures. Okay, said Dave, moving his finger, which had been marking his place on the page of the book and turning his book over on the arm of his chair, giving his son his full attention. I think we're alone. I saw a magazine, said Sam, he was fidgeting. He wouldn't look his father in the eye. I noticed a few things I'm interested in. Aha. That's what Dave said. It seemed like the safest reply. What is a musky aroma of motherly bosom? Borated Sam.

[Laughter]

STUART MCLEAN: Oh, said Dave under his breath, sid barred driven completely from his mind. What, Sam? Just which magazines have you been reading? Asked Dave. It's a magazine about it's about, well, that's one of the things I'm embarrassed about, said Sam. Now, Lord, said, Dave, take me now.

[Laughter]

STUART MCLEAN: It's about eating, said Sam. It's a food magazine. Ha? Said Dave, and I read this article about truffles and it and it said that a truffle tastes like, it says it's one of the most wonderful tastes in the world. Thank you, Lord! Said Dave. And I don't know what a truffle is, said Sam. Yes, said Dave. What's a truffle? Said Sam. Well, said, Dave, I'm not sure I understand everything there is to know about truffles. When I was a boy, we didn't, it's not the sort of thing a boy would talk about with his dad. Sam was frowning. Not that there's anything wrong with truffles, added Dave quickly. A truffle is a beautiful thing. A truffle is a very special thing. You usually share truffles with someone who's very special to you. When I met your mum, for instance. But not right away, but after I'd known her for a while, I'd got her a truffle. Actually, to tell the truth, I gave her a box of them, truffles, and I've never done that with any other girl before in my life, which shows you how special your mum was. And I knew that and so did she. But what are they said, Sam? I'm getting to that, said Dave. A truffle is like a chocolate. But what is it? Said Sam. I'm telling you what it is, said David. So it's a little chocolate like the kind we get at Christmas. Except they're very expensive and very delicious. What does that have to do with the fragrance of a mother's bosom? Asked Sam. I'm not sure, said Dave. Because I was thinking, said Sam, after I read about them, I saw a sign at Harmon's that says they're coming. They're coming? Said Dave Truffles, said Sam, from France. They're putting them on a plane on Friday. They'll be here on Saturday. And I wanted to get one. It says they're the most delicious taste in the world. Well, there's nothing wrong with that, said Dave. Good, said Sam, because I already did it. You have to order in advance. I just wasn't sure if it was like, like if I was allowed. I thought maybe you had to be older or something. Well, usually you do, said Dave, but I don't see a problem. How are you going to pay for your truffle? With my allowance, said Sam. Good, said Dave. Good, said Sam. And then Sam smile, and he stood up. He was halfway out of the room when he stopped, and he turned. I'm glad we had this talk, Dad. I feel a lot better. I feel sort of older. Me too, said Dave.

[Laughter]

STUART MCLEAN: Sam gets five dollars a week allowance and he has never spent a cent of it. He has a bank account and every time he gets money, he puts the money in the bank. He puts his allowance in the bank and is Christmas money and the money his grandmother sends him on his birthday, it all goes in the bank. So when Dave told morally that Sam had gone to the bank and withdrawn 25 dollars to pay for truffles from Harman's, they were both delighted. Delighted that he was finally spending some of his money. That was the point, wasn't it? You'll learn to save. And when you'd save for a while, you bought something you wanted. Didn't matter what it was. It mattered that you learned the process of delayed pleasure. Truffles were a little odd, perhaps, but it didn't matter, it was the process. Both Dave and Morley had felt uncomfortable that Sam had all this money. He had over 300 dollars in the bank, so they were delighted. And as they lay in bed that night, Dave said, I wonder how many truffles you get for 25 dollars these days. Thursday at supper, Sam said two more days, Friday at breakfast, he said, my truffles come tomorrow. Saturday morning he was up and out the door at 9. I'm going to get my truffles. Harmen's is one of those specialty food stores that you visit on special Saturday mornings and buy maybe a bag or some sharp cheddar cheese or maybe a small container of black olive paste. Harman's is compact, elegant, friendly and ridiculously expensive. And each time you go, you wish you had enough money so you could do all your shopping there. Everything at Harmen's looks better than the stuff you have in your house. The potatoes are round and clean and polite, and they have things on the shelves at Harmon's that you'd you've never seen before in your life. Tiny red berries that look like they'd be extra sour and really good for your digestion. Miniature squash and zucchinis that looked like they were growing, especially for dollhouses. Giant cherries, the size of tangerines, green beans, the length of your arms and coffee that smells so good it would be a shame to drink it. And of course, truffles. The sign by the cash register said: truffles from France, one of the most ecstatic, enchanting and edible experiences you'll ever have in your life. Order now for Saturday delivery. And there's Sam coming through the door in his sneakers and jeans and t shirt. He's locked his bike to the no parking sign out front. Sam standing in front of the deli counter where Mr. Harmon is fiddling with a ceramic bowl of grilled mixed peppers. Mr. Harmon in his white shirt with the sleeves rolled up and his green apron, yellow and green and red peppers, grilled gently and mixed with garlic and onions and all of this and salt and pepper floating in the ceramic bowl and the finest virgin Italian olive oil. Sam standing quietly in front of the counter, waiting to be noticed. When Mr. Harmon sees them, he smiles. And Sam says, did they come? And Mr. Harmon nods. They came this morning direct from Orlay. A box of jewels. Jewels, said Sam. His mouth was beginning to water. Better than jewels, said Mr. Harmon, leaning forward over the counter and lowering his voice. Magical powers have been attributed to these things. And then he says, Come you can, you can see for yourself. And he points at the large Walk-In Cooler at the back of the store. Sam licked his lips. And he followed Mr. Harmon through the store past the mysterious fruits and the fresh sticks of bread and a jars of jam and the bottles of caviar. He followed Mr. Harman into the back of the store to the big cooler. And he waited while Mr. Harmon pulled the big silver door open and stepped back like a hotel doorman, and he motioned him in. It was like walking into one of the great pyramids of Egypt. As Sam walked past Mr. Harmon and through the door of the freezer, he thought to himself, I will never forget this moment as long as I live. He had a momentary twinge of anxiety when Mr. Harmon stepped into the cooler and pulled the door closed behind him. It took a moment for Sam's eyes to adjust to the cool, dim light. He shivered and he wondered what would happen if they couldn't get the door open again. Then he heard Mr. Harmon calling to him. They're over here, said Mr. Harmon. As Sam stepped around a huge crack of olives endocked under a large ham hanging from the ceiling, he forgot all about the closed door. He was walking in a refrigerator. It was like he'd been made miniature, like he was walking around the fridge at home. He felt light-headed as he watched Mr. Harmon remove a wooden box from the shelf in the far corner. The box was the size of the television set in his parents bedroom was covered with a piece of cloth. It was full of rice. Mr. Harmon picked up a wooden spoon off the shelf and began to dig in the rice. After a moment, he lifted the spoon out of the box and held out a dirty, roundish brown lump. He was beaming. The black diamond of Provence. He said he bet over any smell the dirty lamp. But then he pushed the spoon towards Sam and he nodded. Sam, look puzzled. Go ahead, said Mr. Herman. Smell. It's like a distant field of pineapples. Sam leaned forward and breathed in. He wrinkled his nose. He wasn't sure what to say. He looked up at Mr. Harmon. Mr. Harmon was still smiling at him. What is it? said Sam. It's your truffles, said Mr. Harmon, taking a step back. But it looks like a fungus, said Sam. It is a fungus, said Mr. Harmon. But I thought it was made out of chocolate, said Sam. Chocolate? Said Mr. Herman. Where have you been getting your information? The school yard, the street corner? My dad, said and.

[Laughter]

STUART MCLEAN: Another man, a more sensitive man, a man less obsessed with food, might have offered to refund Sam his money. The idea never occurred to Mr. Harmon. Not because of avarice. He could have easily sold a truffle two or three times over. And not out of a meanness of spirit either. Quite the contrary, Mr. Harmon believed that in Sam he had met his kindred spirit. He believed he was doing the boy a favour. Mr. Harmon was completely out of touch with what children like to eat. In his heart of hearts Mr. Harmon believed that Sam would love the truffle, needed the truffle. Pasta, he whispered as they stepped out of the freezer. Slice it as thin as you can, slice it as thin as paper. Arrange the slices on a dish of pasta and the flavour. His hands flew up to his mouth as he searched for the words. It's something that can't be explained, it has to be experienced. Ambrosia, he said. Sam followed Mr. Herman into the cash register. He reached into his pocket and carefully counted out the money he had withdrawn from the bank. Twenty eight dollars and seventy five cents. He handed it to Mr. Harmon. This is too much, said Mr. Herman. It's only twenty five dollars. The tax, said Sam, who'd worked everything out to the penny. No tax, said Mr. Herman, handing the three dollars and seventy five cents back to Sam, no tax on truffles. Sam stood on the sidewalk beside his bike, clutching the brown paper bag. Mr. Harmon had handed to him. He was confused. This was not anything like he had imagined. He had imagined he was going to pedal home with a large box of chocolate. Twenty five dollars worth of chocolate. He'd imagined it would be better than Halloween. He'd imagined there'd be so much chocolate he might have a hard time carrying it on his bike, which is why he'd brought his backpack. He stood on the sidewalk, unsure of what he should do next. He'd imagined taking the chocolate home and setting it out on the kitchen table, letting everyone, each person in his family, his mother and his father, even his sister, one chocolate each. He felt alone and small and miserable. He didn't want to cry on the sidewalk in front of Harmon's. He took off his backpack and he dropped the paper bag inside and he got on his bike and he pedalled off down the sidewalk, weaving around a man with a dog and passed a woman pushing a stroller. Most of all, he didn't want to look stupid. Especially in front of his parents. Three blocks later, instead of turning right on the street that would have taken him home, Sam stood up on his pedals and he wheeled left. Five minutes later, he was at the IJA, standing in front of the past to display, frowning at the dizzying packages of different shaped noodles. He had 47 cents left when he left the store. Before he went home, he went to the bank and returned it to his account. And he cooked supper that night for the first time in his life. I don't need any help, he said. I'll call you when it's ready. He set the table by himself. Everyone got a paper towel as a napkin and a serving of Coca-Cola poured from a glass bottle. It tastes better out of glass bottles, said Sam proudly. Dinner's ready, said Sam. And they all came into the kitchen. And when they are sitting at their places, Sam carried one covered dish carefully across the kitchen to the table. His bottom lip sucked tightly into his mouth. He set the dish in front of his mother and Morley shook her head. The chef served, she said. So we moved it and put it down in front of his place. And then Dave said, what have you cooked us? And Sam took the cover off the dish and Stephanie said Kraft dinner. And Sam said Kraft dinner with truffles.

[Laughter]

STUART MCLEAN: And Morley sucked in her breath and she looked at Dave her hand over her mouth, and then she looked quickly over at Stephanie, who remarkably hadn't said another thing. And now it was Morley who wanted to cry, thinking as she watched her son earnestly spooning the sticky orange noodles onto the plate, his sister was holding patiently in the air in front of them of how they had grown and how they were becoming, no mistake about it, remarkable people. These are the truffles, Sam was saying. They bring out the flavour of the cheese, but you have to try it. It's hard to describe. Thank you very much.

[Laughter]

MG: Stuart McLean from the Vinyl Cafe. No tax on truffles. Monday is a holiday across much of this country. We will be here and you'll want to tune in on Monday to hear another episode of the Vinyl Cafe. Give you a little hint? It's one of the most requested ones.

[Music]

MG: No band sounds like them, the Talking Heads frontman of that group, author Broadway star David Byrne, joins Tom Power on our program in an hour. In the meantime, talking heads from 1980 Born Under Punches.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Talking heads. David Byrne joins Tom Power a little bit later on in the program, the CBC News is next. And then using Tik Tok a little more these days. What about your parents? We'll hear how one mum is using tech talk to create a deeper connection with her daughter during these lockdown times. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in six minutes.

Mother-daughter TikTok team; How tapping sugar maples is reconnecting me to the land — and my roots

Guests: Shauna Pomerantz, Miriam, Jolene Banning

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, we're heading to the sugar bush for some maple syrup. But first, Tik Tok goes to the moms.

[Music: Theme]

MG: You know, with all of us stuck inside these days, this is a great time to prefect your say so. Or maybe your savage if you're really feeling it. How about the Git Up? If you're thinking at this moment, you know, Matt Galloway sounds like he might have lost it. Don't worry. That may be true, but these are just some of the more popular quarantine dance challenges on Tik Tok wildly popular video sharing app and with parents at home too. These dance routines have become a family affair.

SOUNDCLIP

DAD: My daughter challenges [unintelligible] working her way to a dance challenge. I don't think she realizes how much a 38 year can [unintelligible].

DAUGHTER: 57.

DAD: 51.

MG: A dad of debatable age, and his teenage daughter are standing side by side in the rec room. In the video they start to dance, pretty good routine. Clearly they've had some time to perfect it.

SOUNDCLIP

DAD: Let's do this.

[Music]

DAD: Put your hands in the air. One, two, three.

DAUGHTER: [Laughs]

MG: It's not so bad. My next guest is a mum who studies Tik Tok and has an unusual co-researcher. Shauna Pomerantz is a child and youth studies professor at Brock University. Miriam is her 11 year old daughter, currently in Grade 6 in St. Catharines. They both join us now. Good morning to you both.

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Good morning, Matt.

MIRIAM: Good morning.

MG: Shauna, you have been researching girls culture in particular for over two decades. What is it that is so interesting to you about Tik Tok?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Well, first, Matt, I want to say you sounded very hip in that introduction talking all this dance.

MG: Thank you. Anybody can act, it turns out.

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: It seems, it seems perfect to me. You know, parents think they know their kids lives online so well. There's so much hollering going on. We watch from a distance and we usually watch with feelings of worry and guilt. You know how much time our kids are spending on screens. And are they in any sort of danger? So this project was about shifting from being passive observer to active participant in my child's life.

MG: Is there something about the app that that is giving you particular insight?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Well, the app is a fascinating thing because unlike Instagram or Snapchat or other social media, that's popular with young people, Tik Tok really is about looking yourself. There's no perfectly posed people. You have licence to basically socially embarrass yourself. You can be cringe-worthy. And in fact, that's a desirable thing; to be funny, goofy and cringy.

MG: You could do this on your own, but you have a co-researcher in your daughter. How does that work?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Well, as a co-researcher, Miriam has been so helpful. I really couldn't do it without her. She is the master of this form. And I knew that if I wanted to understand her life at all, I was going to need to ask her to take me into her world. I really wanted to become more aware of why she loves Tik Tok so much. But even more importantly, I wanted to initiate a new mode of engagement predicated on my interest and an egalitarian conversation between parent and child. So she's been really helpful.

MG: Miriam, how much time are you spending on tech talk these days?

MIRIAM: Probably about two and a half hours a day.

MG: And what do you like looking at?

MIRIAM: I mostly like watching the dances. I like watching the comedies because they're really funny, especially during this COVID-19 times. They like to make jokes about COVID-19 to make a little less heavy.

MG: What do you like the most about this app? I mean, there's Instagram, there are other apps as well. But what do you like the most about Tik Tok?

MIRIAM: I really like that on Tik Tok as endless videos to watch because there are over 1 billion users on tech talk. So that means there's over like two billion videos posted a day per person while every person posts two videos a day. And then there's 2 billion videos. So there's a lot of videos to watch. And you just, you can watch for ever.

MG: Do you find the time kind of just disappears because you can watch forever. You can just keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling.

MIRIAM: Yes.

MG: What is it like, Shauna, working with your daughter on something like this?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: It's been amazing. It's been frustrating. It's been challenging. I have to say that it's helped commemorate a really unique time in history. During COVID-19. We have had a lot of time, as I'm sure you can imagine. The projects started before the pandemic began. But given that we are now home isolating ourselves, most of the time, we have quite a bit more free time on our hands. And so it's been so great to bond with her in this way, but also to really understand why she loves this particular thing so much that honestly, parents really don't understand that well.

MG: And that's the thing. Parents don't understand it. So what are you seeing in terms of how kids are using Tik Tok in this moment?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Kids are using Tik Tok in such a variety of ways. It's hard to pinpoint, but given the context of COVID-19, as Miriam mentioned, there's been all kinds of really cool means ideas, inspiration going around that are helping kids stay positive and stay engaged. Lots of games that are happening, lots of room decor ideas, lots of cooking and baking ideas. But they're also staying connected, which is what's so beautiful about this particular app. It's a vast community and you can find your own people in your own interests within it, and you don't have to look good doing it. This is the thing I love most about it is you can have messy hair and dirty clothes. You can be in your pyjama bottoms and you can still go viral at the same time.

MG: And why does that matter in the world of social media where you think of Instagram and it's it's that perfect shot. Why does the fact that you can just look the way you look matter in the work that you're doing?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: I think it gives kids a relief and a break from the pressures of most other social media is out there. It also presents them with a powerful outlet for creative expression, because you can look however you want to look. And because being embarrassing, goofy, silly, funny, these are all totally, highly prised things on this app. It allows for so much more variation in what you can do. And it also provides young people with a chance to engage in really hard work. It takes a lot of effort to make these videos to produce, to act in them, to edit them, to make them to your satisfaction. Miriam actually made me practise these videos over and over and over again until she felt they were right.

MG: Now practise these videos, meaning dancing. Miriam, tell me about the dances that you did with your mum.

MIRIAM: So dances are pretty special on Tik Tok. So if you imagine that every week there's a new dancing trend and a random person who's probably not even that famous makes up a dance and then it becomes very popular in that week and then you learn that dance. So with my mum, I would make dances with her to every week because every week there would be a new dance to learn and new dance to make. And it was just really fun seeing her like being so engaged and like interested in where I'm really interested in.

MG: Was she good at the dances?

MIRIAM: Yes, I think she's pretty good.

MG: Shauna, you're pretty good?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: I think I'm pretty good at the dances. Miriam's a master, as I said. And so for me, the joy was in learning from her. And that's why this research is so engaging and so interesting. I am not the boss of this show, Matt. Miriam is telling me what to do, what to look at, how to move, which videos matter to her. She is in charge. And it's been refreshing as a researcher to be centred in that way. And to have a participant who is so knowledgeable and so expert that I can really just put myself in her hands.

MG: Easier for kids to be silly than adults, though. Did you need some convincing to learn some of these dances?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: I love dancing and have my whole life and this app gave me a licence to dance as if no one and everyone were watching all at the same time. It was really an amazing release. And Miriam and I want to recommend that parents out there dance with their kids during this pandemic in particular. But at any point in time, there is no reason not to dance.

MG: Miriam, what's it like in this moment? Are you learning about Tik Tok as you're doing this research?

MIRIAM: While I have been learning about cake talk a lot, but I've also been learning about my mum and I've learned how she's actually a pretty cool mum for doing this with me. I used to be like when my friends were [unintelligible] would be like, oh, okay, mum, okay. But now I think it's really cool that she would do that. And not a lot of other moms are like that and are able to do this with their kids.

MG: Shauna, you've won her over.

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: I'm bursting with pride, Matt, I'm so happy. I want you to know that my cool factor goes up and down on any given day and even on any given moment. So to hear her say this on national radio is pretty special.

MG: What have you learned about your daughter through this project that you might not have known before?

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: I've learned that Miriam is a very artistic kid. These videos have opened up avenues for her to explore her creative side. And I've learned that it's very hard work. She's dedicated, industrious. She's extremely interested in making fun, cool videos, not necessarily perfect videos, but just videos that might make other people smile out there in the world and that might speak to her friends. So the thing I think I've really learned is to appreciate something that I didn't know very much about before this project started.

MG: And Miriam, what is this meant for you? This is a really tough time. You can't go and hang out with your friends like normal. So with your mum, what have you learned? In this moment?

MIRIAM: Well, in this moment, like I've learned that obviously, like she's really cool and that she's like fun to hang out with since I can't hang out with my friends. I guess she's kind of been my new best friend to hang out with outside of my friends. I've been Face Timing with my friends all the time. But also, when I did spend time with my mum in my family, I think it's really fun that she's like there. And she knows so much about me that she's already, like she was already my best friend.

MG: This is a really great story. Just in terms of the relationship that is deepened in this moment, Shauna, but also the work that you're doing to learn more about what kids are doing on these apps. Thank you both for talking to us.

SHAUNA POMERANTZ: Thank you, Matt.

MIRIAM: Thank you.

MG: Shauna Pomerantz is a child and youth studies professor at Brock University. Miriam is her 11 year old daughter. We reached them in St. Catharines, Ontario.

[Music].

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name's Matt Galloway, it's not just the disruption of being able to hang out with your friends. This pandemic has upended the plans and traditions of so many people in this country. On reserve, just outside of Thunder Bay. Freelance journalist Jolene Banning has spent the spring trying to carry on with a practise her ancestors began well over a century ago. And this is her story. The Sugar Bush.

SOUNDCLIP

JOLENE BANNING: The air is cool and crisp. The snow is at least three to four feet deep still. I wear my snowshoes to walk around the trees or sink up to my hips before it can even begin to tap the maples. The conditions must be right. The only way to know this is to be on the land daily. This is a story of how I'm reconnecting to the land in a country that tried to cut those ties during a time most of us have never seen before a global pandemic. It's the story of how I get something so sweet and precious out of something so unexpected and hard, like a sugar maple tree in a time of crisis.

[Singing in aboriginal language]

JOLENE BANNING: Back in February, the Sugar Bush family gathered in the woods. It's a collective of Port William First Nation community members. We trek up the snow covered mountain to break trail and check on the trees. That's my niece, Stephanie singing. She's wearing a bright orange hat, black winter coat, winter boots and snow shoes. Two sizes too big.

[Singing in aboriginal language]

JOLENE BANNING: I've been a member of the collective for four seasons. We tapped the sugar maples located on our reserve on top of our sacred mountain. It's the time of year that we hike up almost daily. We talk about what tapping could look like this year and what our plans are for the season. This is where my ancestors have tapped for thousands of years, including my father, Myles Pervais. I'm looking forward to tapping with him this year. Plans to tap ball change in March when News of COVID-19, begins to spread in Canada. By March 23rd, our community issues a notice about the virus with instructions on how to self isolate. Many from the collective decide not to tap, to remain at home for safety of protection against COVID. I'm devastated. I remind them the land is healing and there are safe ways to tap by staggering times and maintaining physical distance. But I understand where their concern comes from. I feel it, too. But for me, the land calms my fear. When they tell me they really aren't tapping this year. I cry all night until the tears take everything from me and I fall asleep. This year I'll tap alone. Two days later, things have changed again in my community, we're issued a COVID related curfew and all local businesses are shut down. On my own I make the trek up the mountain that the Anishinabek have called Anemki Wajiw long before settlers' renamed it Mount Mackay. It's on the traditional territory of Fort William First Nation next to Thunder Bay. Anemki Wajiw loosely translates to Thunder Mountain. It's given that name from our ancestors who knew that the very top of the mountain is where the Thunderbirds nest. It's a sacred spot where ceremonies are held. People come from all over the world to lay their tobacco, pray for a loved one, or enjoy the view overlooking the city and Lake Superior. On the mountain, protected from the harsh cold winters, nestled in between two ridges are hundreds and hundreds of maple trees. Sugar maples aren't typically found in our northern region of Canada. The weather is a little colder. It's a harsher environment. So how did the trees get planted here. In the eighteen hundreds maple sugar was a form of currency. It just made sense to have your own bank. My ancestors would have been trading with other Anishinabek from places along their trade routes. It's speculated that they would have brought the seeds home and planted them in their most sacred spaces, in Anemki Wajiw. The [unintelligible] kept journals on the activities of the natives of Fort William First Nation. Records dated as far back as 1882 describe the families walking up the mountain and coming down with maple syrup. My dad shares stories of what it was like when bus loads of children would take school trips up the mountain to see how maple syrup was made and how they would eat it fresh as a snow cone. This year, I asked him if he could still help. He has an ATV that fits around a dozen five gallon jugs in the back. It makes the workload lighter. He replies that he's in self-quarantine to be safe. I'm crushed again. As I hike up the mountain to see if it's time to tap. I think about my relationship with my dad. I never knew him growing up. I was raised by my mum in Thunder Bay. I knew who he was. I was told I looked just like him. He lived on the reserve. I lived in the city. I'd look forward to my summers because that's what my mum would bring me home. I loved watching her on the land with my uncle and grandpa growing up. She learned to read the rapids, fillet fish and spot animal tracks the best places to set a snare. For me growing up, I learned the city bus lines and schedule were the arcades were. I knew just about every derogatory thing you could say about indigenous people. As an adult, I've had conversations about the issues we face daily, like racism, oppression and being followed around the stores because of the colour of our skin. How do we resist the discrimination, the violence we face daily? Someone asked, Do you want to make maple syrup? A part of our history that is lay dormant until a few years ago is now being revitalized. The Sugar Bush family has been tapping the sugar maples on an Anemki Wajiw for six seasons. This is the seventh since joining. I've been reconnecting with who I am through culture and traditions. It helps me to shed the negative stereotypes, lazy, drunken Indian that were imprinted on me growing up. It's also helping me build a relationship with my dad, a complicated one since I never grew up with him on the reserve. But being in the sugar bush, none that matters. We don't dwell on the past. There's no talk of abandonment or guilt. We just connect. This year is so different. When I see how much work goes into this without any support, I want to quit. Although he has chronic lung illness back and neck problems, my husband won't let me. The collective has never been as big a part of his life as it has mine. But he offers to help. He struggles as we hike up the mountain, stopping often so he can catch his breath. As the seasons change and the sun begins to melt away the snow, the sap inside the trees begins to warm too. As the sap warms, it begins to flow. Layer by layer of snow is melted away in a circle around the trunk, until eventually you can see the earth. When you can see the earth. It's time to tap. I hope with all my heart that my Sugar Bush family will miss it too much, and they will still come up to tap. But people are scared. So I'm tapping the sugar maples with my own family and it will be their first time making maple syrup. My two year old granddaughter walks most of the way up, asking every once in a while to be picked up. She makes it all the way up the mountain. After hauling up our supplies in the back of the sleigh, I pull up my trail and make an entry point for my figure.

[Sound: Drill]

JOLENE BANNING: I have to be careful to remain straight with my drill slightly off a 90 degree angle. You want to keep the drill steady as you can, so to speak, it doesn't fall out. After I push the spigot in as far as I can, I give it a gentle tap at the hammer to make sure it's in all the way. Wait a second until I see that first drip. Then I hang up my pale. Secure the lid to the spigot and move on to the next tree. But after I tap that first sugar maple and sap starts to drip, I let out a squeal of delight. 'I did it'. The tap in season is short. Five weeks if the conditions are just right, sap starts to flow as the weather is above zero during the day and below zero in the evening. I lay my tobacco down to give thanks for all that I have. I bring traditional foods like berries, Minoan wild rice and water to feast with the trees. I bring my hand drum and sing.

[Drumming and singing in aboriginal language]

JOLENE BANNING: As I follow these protocols of giving thanks and think of my ancestors. Within a couple days of tapping 15 trees, I have enough sap to make two litres of syrup and the season is only beginning. I take a long swig right out of the pail and fill my water bottle. It's my reward for the hike. The sap collected straight from the trees is very cold and sweet. People are on edge from the lockdown. But this is my medicine, the sap. It's pure sweet medicine water and I can't get enough of it. The first boil of the season happens after we've collected at least 40 gallons of sap and the weather is nice enough for a boil outside. Every 40 gallons of sap yields only one gallon of maple syrup. I want to boil. The only way I know how over an open fire. Normally boiling is the time for friends, family and community to visit. Almost everyone that visits will bring a dish to share this year. There is no feast and there is no open fire. In early April, Ontario issued a province wide fire ban to prevent any human caused forest fires. The province doesn't want to be fighting fires when it's already battling COVID-19. We have a wood stove in the shed. My husband pulls it out for me. I'll try it for a boil. So much work goes into producing the syrup. You don't want to see one drop get wasted. It's never sold, but gifted or traded for supplies. It's how I'll pay for the truck load of birch. All cut up for my dad. Or the canning equipment for my cousin. The first batch is dark and sweet with hints of smoke from the fire. I dip the tip of a teaspoon in what looks like liquid gold. And it's so sweet. I make tea in that half a teaspoon. I can't wait to make pancakes. By late April, the city of Thunder Bay has declared a state of emergency due to COVID. The lockdown of Fort William First Nation is extended. No one knows what the future holds. In total, I collected enough sap to make four and a half litres of maple syrup, no small feat for just two people. Sugar season as my New Year and the promise of new beginnings. At a time of so much uncertainty going out on the land gives me a sense of peace and belonging. I thought my Sugar Bush family was only made up of people in rebuilding my relationship with the land. I discovered my family includes the trees. They're still standing. And so my.

MG: We've been listening to the documentary The Sugar Bush, produced by freelance journalist Julene Banning and the CBC. Duncan McCue with editing by the Currents. Joan Webber was made as part of CBC Radio's Emerging Indigenous Doc Maker program. Well, coming up, they were humming along with for COVID-19. Now, choirs could be silenced for a very long time. The dangers of singing together during a pandemic. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

Choirs finding ways to sing together while apart

Guests: Lucinda Halstead, Kathleen Allen, David Byrne

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Choir singing]

MG: That's the Vancouver Phoenix Chamber Choir and their pandemic version of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody recorded with all the singers at home on Zoom, it looks like they won't be back in concert halls anytime soon. Experts are warning that singing is a greater threat than speaking in this pandemic. Dr. Lucinda Halstead is the president of the Performing Arts Medical Association and the medical director for Voice and Swallowing at the University of South Carolina. Doctor, good morning.

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do we know about the dangers of singing together in a pandemic?

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: What we know is extrapolated, actually, from the work that's been done on speaking of the aerosolization of viral particles and particles in general during speaking. What we know is that the louder the voice gets, the more particles are emitted and put into the room. And we also know that by extrapolation, the loudest voices, which would be singing voices would produce that much more. My colleagues on the webinar from the National Association of Teachers of singing Dr. Donald Milton is actually looking now to include singers in some of his studies. The studies that are out there show that the louder the voice gets, the more particles there are. And when you have a group together, then there's more and more particles that are in the air, which then are inhaled by the remainder of the singers in the group. I'm sure all of you have heard about the Washington State Choir.

MG: Yes.

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: Where they had 60 singers and 75 percent of them, 45 people were diagnosed or symptomatic with the virus after that rehearsal and 3.3 percent of that choir died from that. Two members died, which was 4.4 percent of the people that were symptomatic.

MG: Do you know- I mean, it would sound different, obviously. But if the singers were to wear masks, would that make a difference?

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: So the short answer to that is it would contain some of the large particles, but it's the smallest particles that travel the farthest and are most likely to be inhaled. So the ones that are like point three microns - so very, very tiny particles - and these particles, unlike the droplets which can be contained with a mask, travel much farther. There was a wonderful 3-D simulation in The New York Times on April 14th, which kind of shows how far those tiny particles go, which is an average of 16 to 26 feet. So when you're in a small room like that, the danger is all of these particles are getting into the air. So you need to figure out ways to protect the choir. And some of those are environmental and some of these are going to be medical treatments. So, for example, the safest thing obviously would be able be being able to test the choir at the time they walk in the door to make sure that they are covered negative. Most many of the rapid tests right now are have a three to five percent false negative rate, which means that you have three to five percent chance that the person was actually infected. The test was negative. And all obviously what we're all working on desperately in the medical profession is vaccination and the vaccines, which the happy news from that's different from when we gave the webinar on May 7 is that the World Health organisation has just announced several days ago that they had seven vaccines that are going into clinical trial.

MG: In the meantime, you mentioned that webinar. There's no vaccine yet. And what did you tell people in the choir community about when they'll be able to sing together again?

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: Okay, well, you know, I think that if it depends on how much risk you want to take. So the group has to decide how much risk they want to take. But if you wanted to just be able to go in and sing like you're singing now with the spacing that you need now, COVID testing and vaccination is really the only way we'll get back to where we were.

MG: So that means that people can't sing together in the way that they were until there's a vaccine in that kind of testing.

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: Yes, I would say the short answer to that is yes. Now there's things you can do in the environment like these virtual choruses, having small group rehearsals and, you know, having repertoire that's more suited to that. Now, if you wanted to have more people in a room, you'd still have to have the distancing because the masks really aren't effective for the particles that we're most concerned about. And also have good ventilation where everything the air is being blown up toward the ceiling and hopefully having a filter with the UV light in it or filters plural to help. Those will decrease your risk a little bit. But it's not going to mitigate the fact that you're going to have, for example, 60 singers come in and with the potential of infecting each other, because we don't know what they're, you know, if they're infected or not, just symptomatic and infected.

MG: Just before I let you go, you understand how devastating this could be to singers who want to gather together and sing, because in some ways this is personal for you.

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: Yes. Yes. I really do understand that. I adore singing. Singing is one of the basic expressions of our soul. And even more so for the people who do it professionally or avocation early. So what we're saying is that essentially what I'm saying is that if you have a choir of 80 people, my recommendations are to do other things that are creative and decrease the overall risk until we get things that will allow you to congregate together. Because I would like that choir of 80 people to be 80 people in two years.

MG: Doctor, appreciate you speaking to us about this or want to hear from somebody who received that information. And I'm sure it was difficult to hear that. But in the meantime. Thank you.

LUCINDA HALSTEAD: You're welcome.

MG: Dr. Lucinda Halstead is the president elect of the Performing Arts Medical Association, medical director of the Evelin Trammel Institute for Voice and Swallowing at the Medical University of South Carolina. She mentioned that webinar that she gave to choral groups, saying there is no real safe way for singers to rehearse or perform together until there's a vaccine and effective treatment. Kathleen Allen happened to be watching that webinar. Composer and singer is also the artistic director and conductor of the Amadeus Choir of Greater Toronto. Kathleen, good morning to you.

KATHLEEN ALLEN: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. When you realised what Dr. Halstead was saying, what went through your mind?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: It was very shocking to hear, and though it really reverberated through our whole international coal community. We've been more connected than ever since this pandemic with discussions and a lot of behind the scenes planning for how we're going to move forward. Choral musicians are some of the most innovative and creative people I know. So we've actually been able to pivot and to make sure that we're proceeding with caution, but of course, nothing's really going to stop us from singing.

MG: What do you love about singing together with people?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: Oh, I think it's Dr. Halstead just said it is one of the most basic expressions of the human soul. There's something that singing does for one's own health. There's been a lot of research in recent years about the health benefits of singing and particularly the health benefits of group singing. When you come together with a large group of people, you're synchronising your breath. You're synchronising your heartbeats often. It really creates a can, a communication and a connection between people that I believe is one of the most powerful things that we can do as humans.

MG: And so do you have any sense as to when the Amadeus choir would be able to rehearse again together or perform again together?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: We have a series of plans and plans a through the weekend, and we are going to be following the public health advice very closely and I want to make sure that our listeners know that while singing is so important to Canadians, actually there are more Canadians who sing enquires than play hockey. If few believe it, that. And I think that's why our scientific community is being so focussed on on singing. It's really amazing that they've taken up this research in order to help us get back to singing as soon as possible. But we want to make sure that because of these couple of very hot media stories that have gotten out there, that singing isn't singled out more than it needs to be and that the research is being equally done in acting and dancing and sports and all of the recreational activities that we love and that make us who we are as Canadians. And that that singing is only one factor in these things that may be of similar risk to many other things that we do.

MG: In the meantime, what are the last couple of months been like for you with something that you love so much, something that you've been doing since you were young, taken away from you in some ways?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: We have really stayed connected. I'm leaving weekly Zoom rehearsal. We have almost all 88 of the Amadeus choir members coming in every Tuesday on Zoom. We're doing everything in our power to sing together. It's actually been kind of wonderful to see everybody's faces in a different way and have people, I think, more connected in some ways than we were before. The only downside is that we can't hear each other.

MG: Can you explain how that works? You know, having a Zoom conference call or you see, you know, how some of the remote distance education is going. It can be a bit like herding cats and trying to get everybody on the same page when they're all on the same screen. How does it work when you when you're trying to rehearse or perform virtually?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: We are focussed on the simple act of singing together. We know that for so many people who singing choirs in Canada that that scene acquire is more than just about their musical development or a hobby. It's really about the community that they find through that ensemble. So we've been focussing on those elements. We're not currently working towards a specific concert or performance. So we've been developing skills. We've been singing some of our repertoire, even though I can't hear them. We have all of the singers mute themselves because unfortunately the leg, if they're unmute it, it's a total cacophony with various degrees of lag time. So we've been just giving people the opportunity to sing. Giving people the opportunity to engage in all of the other community activities that we usually would have on a Tuesday night. And we're also planning to carry out our educational workshops virtually and to make some video content, some sort of virtual video content for our audience, because that's the other group that we need to stay connected with through these times.

MG: And if you can't hear the other person sing again, singing with a group. Part of that is you and what you give. But it's also about being around other people and hearing them and feeling like you're part of something larger. If you can't hear them sing, but you're still singing with them. What do you get out of that?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: Well, you get the benefits. Singing on your own and what would I tell them? I often sing and play the piano or my husband's actually played the guitar a couple of times because we in the same house and can make music together. And what I tell them is that you're making music with me, but unfortunately, I'm not making music with you right now. So they still have the experience of of singing along or they can harmonize or get their own instrument and sing with me and have that feeling of at least singing with one other person over Zoom, even though I can't hear them back.

MG: We know that this is a big financial hit for people who can't be performing these days. How much of a financial crunch does it put the Amadeus Choir under?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: That's a good question. We're very grateful to our government granting agencies that have committed to supporting this organisation. We are on core funding with a number of levels of government and they have been wonderful. And we are grateful for all of the programs that that the government has put in place to help us weather this time. I think the real question will come next year when we're determining how much can we meet, how what can we deliver to our audiences and our supporters and our donors to make sure that the organisation survives. I know every choir in the country is in the same boat.

MG: Do you worry the choirs may not survive? Not and not so much yours, but do you that choirs may not survive because no one knows when you'll be able to get back together?

KATHLEEN ALLEN: Not for a second, Matt, I think we as Canadians and really as humans have a fundamental need to sing together and we will do that as soon as possible, given any advice from the public health authorities. And we know that if we are stewards and keepers of this art form through this time and whatever creative ways we can come up with, that, it will be ready to thrive again as soon as the restrictions are lifted.

MG: I wish you the best. Kathleen, thank you.

KATHLEEN ALLEN: Thank you very much.

MG: Kathleen Allen, artistic director and conductor of the Amadeus Choir of Greater Toronto. Often you develop your love of singing together in a choir, perhaps as a school child. When you go in and you're singing perhaps in a in a music program or you are in a performance. High school teacher in Toronto is fostering that in her students by bringing the kids together in these unusual times in the same way that Kathleen does through Zoom. This is the Bishop Allen Academy Virtual Choir and their rendition of Take Me Home.

SOUNDCLIP

[Choir]

MG: That's the Bishop, Allen Academy Virtual Choir. Take me home. This is The Current on CBC One, I/m Matt Galloway in September, Talking Heads frontman David Byrne was on this program speaking about his new project called Reasons to be Cheerful gathers stories about hope and possibility for the future work that seems especially timely now. Our friend Tom Power caught up with David Byrne to hear more about how this project is responding in the time of pandemic.

[sc].

TOM POWER: How are you?

DAVID BYRNE: I'm doing okay. Thank you for doing this.

TP: Well, what's to be said for bringing some good news into the world right now?

DAVID BYRNE: We're kind of we're biologically programmed to pay more attention to bad news. Things that might. Be dangerous to us. Things that might, someone who might be risky or whatever. That's kind of in our biological nature. We've evolved to watch out for ourselves that way. And so we gave those things more attention. And the news media naturally follows that trend. And so when you pick up on the paper in the morning, I look at the news, whatever. It's mostly the mostly bad stuff. The better news, the news of the solutions that things that are actually being solved, problems that are being solved and progress being made on things that were once thought intractable. They don't make the headlines quite as much, but they're out there, they're happening and people are doing it. And so we're kind of pushing against our own biological tied up in a certain way. Ship, bring that stuff to our own attention and to the attention of other people.

TP: Do you do you have some? Do you have some reasons to be cheerful for us today?

DAVID BYRNE: Sure. Sure. Here's some stuff that's happening. Some of the changes that are being made are being spurred by the pandemic. We think our changes for the better and some of those looked like they might stick. There's a number of places, not all, but there's a few places where they're dipping more of the streets over to pedestrians and cyclists, and the people, people as opposed to cars. They're rethinking how much traffic that we really need, how much pollution do we really need, how many deaths do we really need from cars, can we cut back on that a little bit in our cities that are actually doing that. They= a lot of cities are putting in like temporary bike lanes and pedestrian paths and closing streets during the pandemic because there's now hardly any traffic. But some cities are saying, no, we're going to keep it. We're going to keep some of it anyway that way. And we think that's kind of a change for the better. There's other things like jails in the United States any way. The rate of incarceration is just out of control.

DAVID BYRNE: There was this- I guess it was in the 80s or whatever when - 80s or 90s - when these various crime bills were passed that just packed the jails, overflowing more than above capacity, became a kind of big business and a political thing where in order to show that you were tough on crime, you'd kind of throw more people in jail. And now it's not only revealed to be an expensive proposition to have all these jails. But it's also because of the pandemic, it's kind of a hotspot for infections, so people were in there just because they can't have a bail, let's say some of those are people are being let out and kind of the whole bail system in the United States is being rethought. It's a chance to realise that this is completely unfair. It's a completely unfair system.

TP: This is all this is all part of, you know, part and parcel. When I think about now anything is possible, which is your series talking about having COVID-19 is making changes once dismisses pipe dreams sort of disappear overnight. I think we're all wondering how is our society going to look after this? You know, and I know you wrote an essay sort of at the beginning called The World is Changing and so can we. And you wrote, here's an opportunity for us to see things differently, to see that we're all connected. What do you hope? Comes out of us when we're out of this?

DAVID BYRNE: Well, one hopes that good folks will look to various places, whether it's countries, counties, municipalities, provinces that are doing well, that have done have done well and say, oh, we should be doing we should do what they do. We should use that as an example. They've kind of they've run the test for us. It's not very risky if someone else has already tried and tested it. So my hope is that people look for these examples around the world, whether it's pandemic related or not, and then they will be humble enough to say, let's do what they do instead of feeling like we have to always invent for ourselves.

TP: David, is does optimism come easily to you?

DAVID BYRNE: Yeah, I guess so. For the most part, I would say I'm an optimistic person. But. There are like anybody. There's times when I wake up in the morning and I go. What am I doing this for? You know, it's just this time. Yeah. There are tough times, but I'm mostly optimistic.

TP: I feel like at least I'm hopeful.

DAVID BYRNE: That that cynicism seems to be taken a body blow in this leg, it feels like cynicism is getting this guy got Nick got knocked around a little bit and maybe idealism and sincerity and unscented ism are sort of rising because of this pandemic.

DAVID BYRNE: I think, yeah, it seems like, well, what else can you do if you're going to give in to anxiety and. Cynicism. Well, you've admitted defeat it. Then it got it, got you. You have to kind of rise above that in order to make it through.

TP: What do you do on days when you wake up and there's a bit of the darkness there.

DAVID BYRNE: I do some little drawings, I'll cook something pretty soon, a lot more cooking now. I'll go for a long bike ride. I'm going for exploring parts of New York City. York City. It's huge. Oh, I mean, we know that. But where you experience how there's this immensity of it on a bicycle and you go, I'm going to go to this neighbourhood that I've never been to before. It's just right around there. And. You realise this. This place is giant. I'm miles from home. But it feels great. It really feels great. It feels like you're not trapped. We can, often can do a little trip with friends or bandmates and. We know we keep our social distance, but we're all together. So. That's yeah. Does this in some ways a lifesaver? Yeah.

TP: You know, I would I would wonder, given that the last time we talked was about American utopia. I would wonder that whether the pandemic would set you back on a quest for utopia. You know what I mean? But if it feels like you're starting to see. You're starting to see it within this pandemic?

DAVID BYRNE: Well, I can try and remain hopeful for now. I mean, there's lots of reasons to be sceptical and despondent. There's plenty of those out there. But. It's also yes, it is an opportunity to kind of. We see that places who have figured things out, whether it is a pandemic or how it's keeping their factories open as Germany has been doing. You go well. Things don't have to be the way they are here. We can take it except. We can follow the example of other people and fix stuff. And we'll all be better off in the future, but we'll see if that can happen. That would be pretty good.

TP: David Byrne I'm glad you're staying safe. I'm thinking about everybody in New York, here in Canada, and I'm glad to hear you're getting out for a bike ride and finding a reason to carry on.

DAVID BYRNE: Thank you.

MG: It's Tom Power in conversation with David Byrne. Tom will join us a little bit later on in the show. Coming up, he's an attack ads, campaign promos, news headlines. He's becoming a central figure in the 2020 U.S. election. Not because he's running, but because he's Barack Obama. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Obamagate; Man makes hundreds of pies in lockdown for his community

Guests: Matt Viser, Bradley Viser, Dave Merheje

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come. Do you know the Muffin Man? What about the pie guy? How one man's pies are literally, literally making people burst into song. We'll hear that coming up. But first, why does it feel like Barack Obama is running for president in 2020?

[Music: Theme]

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DONALD TRUMP: Obamagate. It's been going on for a long time. It's been going on from before I even got elected. And it's a disgrace that it happened. And if you look at what's gone on and if you look at now all of this information that's being released, and from what I understand, that's only the beginning. Some terrible things happened and it should never be allowed to happen in our country again. And you'll be seeing what's going on over the next, over the coming weeks. But I wish you're quite honestly about it. But unfortunately, you choose not to do so. Yeah. John, please.

JOURNALSIT: What is the crime exactly that you're thinking about?

DONLAD TRUMP: You know what the crime is? The crime is very obvious to everybody. All you have to do is read the newspapers except yours.

MG: It's President Trump earlier this week being questioned by Washington Post White House correspondent Philip Rucker. This week, former President Obama seems to be top of mind for both Republicans and Democrats. To help us understand the importance of the former president in the race for the White House, I'm joined by The Washington Post's national political reporter, Matt Vizer. Matt, good morning.

MATT VISER: Hey, good morning.

MG: That was the president taking a shot at your colleague and your paper. Do you know what the alleged crimes of Obama Gate actually are?

MATT VISER: No. And as you heard there, the president himself is not quite detailing what specifically he's meaning by talking about Obamagate. There has been some discussion recently about Michael Flynn and some activities around him in the tail end of the Obama administration where his name was revealed in some intelligence documents. But those took place under normal procedures and there's been no indication of any wrongdoing and certainly no criminal actions taken.

MG: Michael Flynn, former national security adviser, what would he have to do? He's been in the news a lot in the last couple of days. How would he play into the president's narrative here?

MATT VISER: Well, there's the suggestion that Obama administration officials were somehow, you know, revealing his name when they shouldn't have been, when, in fact, they were sort of going through the procedures where in intelligence documents it doesn't identify the officials by name. And in those instances, a top official could ask for the name of the person who is collected as part of intelligence gathering to learn the greater context around that. So Michael Flynn's name was certainly popping up a lot at the tail end of the Obama administration as they were involved in a lot of different nature, different things at the time. So I think that's a little bit of what Trump is suggesting. It's something nefarious is going on when all indications that we've been able to determine so far is that there wasn't any wrongdoing.

MG: This had to do with whether Flynn had any contact with the Russian ambassador around sanctions that the Obama administration had put in place against Russia. Is there any evidence that that Obama and his administration acted illegally in how it dealt with Michael Flynn? The president this morning was tweeting, saying that this is the greatest political scandal in the history of the United States.

MATT VISER: Yes, there's no indication of that. And Michael Flynn at the time not only involved with Russia but with Turkey. And, you know, there was at the time a discussion at the U.N. about Israel and settlements. There was a lot that the incoming Trump administration officials were doing at the time that were being collected by U.S. intelligence officials, you know, under legal procedures. So there's been no suggestion of wrongdoing at this point that the Obama administration is doing anything wrong at that time. But it is a period that Trump is returning to, because in many ways it was, you know, the beginnings of some of the Russia investigation, you know, is mixed up in a lot of that at the time. So it's a period that Trump returns to again and again.

MG: So tell me more about that. Why would the president and members of the Republican Party continue to focus on Obama and his administration more than three years after he left office?

MATT VISER: Well, you know, it's been a driving theme throughout Trump in his presidency. You know, he tried to do many of the things that Obama did. It was an effective way for him to run in 2016, even of drumming up animosity toward Barack Obama. I think he resents to that in the aftermath of his presidency, Obama has been quite favourable, you know, around the country and around the world. And so Trump sees that as a way to try to attack Obama. I think it's also, you know, Obama will be used by Joe Biden in his campaign. So I think Trump is trying to lay the groundwork and to try to put some gangs and Obama and his favourability among Trump's own base, you know, as part of this.

MG: How much of this is about changing the channel from what's going on in the midst of a pandemic, a pandemic that many people believe has been made worse by the actions or the lack of actions from President Trump?

MATT VISER: Yes, I mean, I think that there's a fair amount of of of distracting. President Trump's performance amid the pandemic has has been criticized quite a bit. And so this is this is returning to territory that I think Trump feels much more comfortable, you know, sort of conspiracy theories, you know, and trying to have this hazy, you know, sort of environment around the potential of wrongdoing. And that's an area that Trump has built much of his political career on. He's not built it on kind of government management and trying to sort of oversee the global pandemic of the coronavirus. So I think he is trying to return it into a more comfortable footing. But of course, the coronavirus and its impacts are still very much felt. And so he does run the risk of being seen as not doing his day job.

MG: And into this comes this audio that was leaked of a call in which Obama apparently called the federal response to the coronavirus an absolute chaotic disaster. What does that do? Just adds gasoline to the fire already that's raging away?

MATT VISER: In a way, but it's also an indication of a Barack Obama playing much more of a role in the discussion, in the national discussion. He's been fairly reluctant to weigh in on President Trump and his performance. This took place on a, not in public, but on a call. But it took place with it with thousands of Obama alumni. So people close to him knew that this would leak, that we would learn about these comments. So it is a way to inject his own views of Trump's performance into the public dialogue. Yesterday, President Obama, former President Obama tweeted one word, vote no. So he is trying to become much more of a part of the public discussion, which is a shift for Barack Obama, who over the last three years has, you know, occasionally been in public view, but has largely sort of worked on his book, entertainment programs, going on vacations. You know, he's been much less in the public eye and now is returning to it.

MG: How important is his role for the Democrats in this campaign?

MATT VISER: I think it's quite important, you know, and in part because Joe Biden is his former vice president and Joe Biden is running on Obama administration policies and trying to return to that era. So an, Obama is, you know, quite frankly, a bigger draw than Joe Biden. Oftentimes, he still energizes people. His digital footprint is much larger than Joe Biden. His fundraising abilities are, you know, often better than Joe Biden. So I think he can be a a big draw for the Biden campaign. And we'll be looked to do those kinds of things, you know, depending on what kind of campaign we're going to have amid the coronavirus.

MG: What about for the Republicans? I mean, Obama is loathed by Donald Trump's base and many people who voted for him. Could the president going after him continue cooking up something called Obama gate, saying that Barack Obama should be hauled in front of the Senate to testify about, as he says, the biggest political crime and scandal in the history of the United States? Could that help the Republicans? Matt, are you there? We lost my advisor. We had him and then we lost him. My advisor is a national political reporter for The Washington Post. He's been writing about what's been going on when it comes to the current president and the former president. And you can read about that in The Washington Post. The question, I suppose, is whether what the current president is doing will actually help his party. That was the question that I was going to ask about before the birds got onto the wires and we got disconnected. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. That scandal such as it is, if it is a scandal or not, as many people believe it isn't, is, of course erupting in the midst of something real that has taken over lives around the world, and that is this pandemic. And when life gives you a pandemic, make pie a lot of pie. That is one Toronto man's philosophy. Afraid to go out, but not afraid to bake. He has been making hundreds and hundreds of pies and just giving them away. That, as you can imagine, has people singing his praises literally.

SOUNDCLIP

[Singing] Pie man pie man, living in pie land. Pie man making many pie. Pie man our hero. Pieman baking many pies. Pie man he surely is a hero. Giving us some hope. Pie man baking all the pies during troubled times.

MG: Styx and Ivor Macniven, 14 and 11 years old, singing a tribute to Bradley Harder, the Pie Man. Pie Man, Bradley. Good morning.

BRADLEY HARDER: Good morning, man. How are you?

MG: I'm okay. How many pies do you have on the go at this present time?

BRADLEY HARDER: Well, right now that I don't have any pies in the oven right now. We're doing a batch of sticky buns, which I also give away. From cinnamon walnuts to [unintelligible] buns.

MG: He was going to say from grapes to even greater. I'm a sticky bun fan myself. How did this all get started in which you become the pie man?

BRADLEY HARDER: Well, I was posting videos like to blow people's spirits calls cooking without pants on YouTube and then putting them on Facebook. And I was doing small speech, like I was making duck [unintelligible]. I was doing jerk chicken. I was doing lasagna. Yeah. And I ran over some ingredients. So my friends, Eric and Craig sent a delivery of ingredients to me. And I was so moved by it that I started, I baked them a pie. And then my friend Mark and Darlene were doing food rounds for me all the time, so I baked them a pie. Then my neighbours caught wind of it and I started baking them pies and giving them pies. And before you know it, it's beyond even my imagination. There's so many people contributing, not just me. It's like I lean heavily on all my friends who constantly bring me ingredients. My friend Lisa set up a Go Fund Me account. People just doing great things for me and it's just kind of a little warming.

MG: Now I want to get back to the pies in a moment, but you said your show was called Cooking Without Pants.

BRADLEY HARDER: Yes.

MG: Okay.

BRADLEY HARDER: Trying to do something funny, like boil people's spirits a little bit.

MG: You actually cooking with their pants, though.

BRADLEY HARDER: I was yes. I was wearing underwear and an apron and a shirt.

MG: That doesn't sound safe at all.

BRADLEY HARDER: I wasn't trying baking that.

m: You're in the kitchen, not me. How did you learn to bake like this? Are you do you have a long history of baking? You grow up in a household that where there is a lot of baking going on.

BRADLEY HARDER: Well, in my in my family, there was a lot of baking that was going on. My mum, every Saturday would bake 200 buns and a couple of trays of cinnamon buns and fennels of white bread and five loaves of brown bread, every Saturday. Because I was a baby of 13 children. So there was a lot of mouths to feed. So it is in my DNA.

MG: If somebody wants a pie, how does this work?

BRADLEY HARDER: I mean, how does this work go on my Facebook page. They request one and I tell them how to get one. If they cannot make it, pick it up. I've got a guy named Chris Bruce McDonald who does a delivery for me on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and he will bring the pie to people that are challenged who can't leave the house. And for the most part, people just and pick them up. I give them my address, my phone number. They call an hour in advance and come and get a pie.

MG: How do you ask for anything in return?

BRADLEY HARDER: No, I don't. Absolutely not. And people want to contribute and they do. I accept [unintelligible]. But I won't ask for anything.

MG: Why are you doing this?

BRADLEY HARDER: Well, because everybody needs a pie and you can't eat a pie without smiling. As far as I'm concerned. I won't make people smile and make people happy and it makes me happy.

MG: In this war, we keep hearing from people, we've heard from people across the country over the last many, many weeks who are doing amazing things big and small to help people out. In this time you feel there's something that you can do to give people, as you say, a bit of a smile.

BRADLEY HARDER: That's right. I just want to make people happy. Help them out a little bit. You know, it's a very difficult time for a lot of people. A lot of people are worse off than me. I mean, I have COPD, so I can't really leave the house because this is a respiratory virus going around that will probably kill me if you have it. I'm 60 years old. It's just, you know, times are tough and people get to just do what they can to make other people happier and help them with their struggle.

MG: Do you have a favourite type of pie?

BRADLEY HARDER: Yes, I do. I'm glad you asked.

MG: I want to hear about it.

BRADLEY HARDER: It's the honey crisp apple pie.

MG: Oh.

BRADLEY HARDER: I only use Honeycrisp Bibles cause they're sweet and they're crunchy, but I cook them a little bit first before I put them in the pie. You don't want them to crunch when you're eating an apple pie and the cake creamy and delicious and they're so sweet, you don't have to add as much sugar to it. It's healthier. There's a lot of butter in the crust, but, you know, that's another thing altogether.

MG: We've heard from a lot of people who are you know, you have a lot of time on your hands. Maybe they're learning how to bake bread. Maybe they're making pickles. Maybe they are working their way through a cookbook front to back because they have, as I say, time on their hands. If somebody wants to get into pie baking, do you have any tips that you could share for the beginner?

BRADLEY HARDER: Well, yes. I mean, you know, follow the recipe on the on the tender flea box. That's a good recipe. I add butter to it, I use more butter and less lard and just follow the recipe to the letter and you should be able to make a pretty good crust. Don't overwork the dough. It gets tough and chewy and you don't get the flakes. You don't want to make the dough to warm, buttermilk and then you don't get the layers. Work with cold butter and cold lard and put it in the fridge for half an hour before you roll it out.

MG: How many pies have you made?

BRADLEY HARDER: 240.

MG: 240 pies?

BRADLEY HARDER: Yes.

MG: How many pies have you eaten?

BRADLEY HARDER: None.

MG: None at all.

BRADLEY HARDER: I've had one slice of pie. I'm on a diet. I'm on a Kito diet soda. Lost actually 10 pounds since I started making pies.

MG: Good for you. This is a good I mean, this is a good thing. What do you want others to take from what it is that you're doing, aside from the fact that pie is delicious and you should add more butter? What do you want people to take from this?

BRADLEY HARDER: I want them to just do their best to be a bit nicer to people, help a stranger, see somebody on the streets in trouble, help them out, gives her give something to people. I want other bakers. I want a challenge because across the country to bake pies and give them away, as Mike calls the pandemic pie project. Hashtag Pandemic Pie Project.

MG: Bradley, it's great to talk to you. Happy baking.

BRADLEY HARDER: Great. Talk to you, Matt. Come get a pie.

MG: I think I might. I wanted the Honeycrisp apple pie sounds delicious. I'll be in touch.

BRADLEY HARDER: It's just unbelievable. You'd die and go to heaven.

MG: Without actually having to. Bradley Harder is baking pies for anyone and everyone. He's calling this the Pandemic Pie Project. He is in Toronto. Tom Power.

TP: So I got to tell you two things here. Yes. One, I was really nervous when you asked the question, how many pies have you made. I thought he was going to go like, well, I haven't made a pie yet, but I'm planning on it. And also strawberry rhubarb.

MG: That's your pie?

TP: Oh Man. I would literally while you were doing that, was Googling. I don't think you can get rhubarb this time here.

MG: Yes, you can. This is the time of the year for rhubarb.

TP: I don't know in my apartment.

MG: I have some in my garden. I can get it to you.

TP: Can I get some rhubarb from you?

MG: I'll see what I can do.

TP: Oh, that'd be...

MG: Only a little side deal.

TP: This is all very good. Little side hustle. Nice to talk to you. Tom Power, host of Q here. Not to talk about baking and delicious seasonal vegetables, but also to talk about awards and award winning culture.

TP: You know, the Peabody Awards, indeed, you have very prestigious awards, a powerful, enlightening and invigorating stories in television, radio and online media. But you don't necessarily think about sitcoms when you think about that.

MG: Not as much. No,.

TP: No. You know, you don't think about Married With Children. You don't think about- maybe you think about Cheers. You know, think about Wings or Suddenly Susan. I'm just naming.

MG: All the sit coms you can think of.

TP: Let's sit back and relax. I want to keep naming and then I'm gonna start on pies. Ramy. You know, but the show Ramy?

MG: I've seen note of it, but I haven't actually watched it.

TP: It's a pretty beautiful show. It's gained a lot of attention for its portrayal of Muslim life in America. They just got nominated for a Peabody Award. And one of the show's stars is Windsor, Ontario's own Dave Merheje.

Dave Merheje, good friend of our friend, Ali Hassan. I spoke to Dave about the show and about his career. We started out by talking about the success of Ramy.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: So let's talk about the show's. So when Ramy originally aired, it received a lot of acclaim for the way it represented Ramy. This young first generation American Muslim man, The New York Times called the comedy quietly revolutionary. What do you think of that? Do you do you think the show is sort of revolutionary?

DAVE MEHREJE: Yes. You know, there wasn't any I don't think there's anything like it on TV prior either. I don't see anything like that, I didn't that type of representation and also the way they explore faith. So I agree with that.

TP: What do you mean in terms of how they explore faith?

DAVE MEHREJE: Like in a positive way, like, you know, the show, you know, focuses on it, talks about. I learned things. I didn't I didn't know because I'm Christian, Lebanese. So I didn't know that some of that stuff. So I was learning as I was filming. And then then when I was obviously when I watched.

TP: Tell me a little bit about your character, Armin.

DAVE MEHREJE: He's like one of Rahm's friends as myself. Moe and Steve. So I kind of like, you know, I worry about him more. I feel more than the other kids. Like more than the other two friends. Like, I'm constantly worried about what he's doing and trying to get him, I guess, to do the right thing. In my eyes, what I feel is the right thing. I try to wise, you know, stumbles sometimes and try to figure it out himself.

TP: So let's talk about what I was talking about before. At what point in your life did you start being a bit more choosy about roles you were going to say yes to?

DAVE MEHREJE: I just would go in and like, you've got to do this act or the audition was that you got to do an accent and you got to play like, you know, it's like aggressive terrorist. I was like, I don't even even speak like I mean, like, I was like, no connection. I just didn't want to portray that. I constantly portray it like it just didn't feel right to me. You know, what I wanted to do as a performer.

TP: So I guess this role was like, was it like you read the script and thought, OK, well, maybe this is a show that finally gets it.

DAVE MEHREJE: Yes. Yes, he would he had told me about it like loosely. And then when I saw the script in the audition, I was like, yeah, this is some I grew up with guys like that. So I could understand it. And I thought it was proper. I felt it was proper.

TP: So, you have a long career in Stand-Up. That's how I know. Yeah. Last year you went to Juno for your album, Good Friend, Bad Grammar. Congrats. You're the most recent Juno winners as they haven't given away this year's award yet, by the way.

DAVE MEHREJE: I felt like I could like, you know, maybe do two years. You know, I'm saying I'll jokingly told Ali Hassan, I was like, you know, I think I won twice.

TP: You're like the Toronto Raptors. You know, there's still the championship.

DAVE MEHREJE: Yes.

TP: Yes. So you're still you're still the Juno winner. You know, you found the Netflix special just for Last Call called Comedians of the World. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

You don't understand. My parents were born in Lebanon and they moved to Windsor. Right. I was born in Windsor, Canada. That's where I was born. They taught me only how to speak Arabic and sent me to school. You know how crazy that? That's psychotic. I knew I was like, I went to kindergarten. Didn't know. No. My dad dropped me off and he was. Okay, man. Have a good day. And drove off. That's the first time I heard English. Do you know how crazy that is? I'm like, come back with that language.

TP: That is my guest, Dave Merheje, comedian and actor. Dave, so how does your family feel about being in your act?

DAVE MEHREJE: They're cool about it. They're not like they don't get you know, I called them actually to go over some stuff before we film. Like two summers ago, I was at the airport and my mum was cool about it. She was I you know, my sister, I thought they weren't might have had an issue, but they were cool about it. My dad loves it. You'll be an audience. And he'll just kind of look around when he's getting in front of like being like, yo, that's me he's talking about.

TP: So when you see you had a run of bio, you have to do your act for your family. You have them in the living room, you to stand up there and got him a couple of whisky sodas and doing it.

DAVE MEHREJE: No, I was over the phone phones. I had to run a bit of that by my sister. One was about my sister and her husband. So I didn't end up using that bit. It was kind of touching. And then the other one was about my mom's like, [unintelligible] like how she is clean. So I just wanted to be like, I wasn't being insensitive. So she was corsets.

TP: Before I let you go. I want to talk about another project you're working on just briefly. It's called the Beautifully Anxious. It's a podcast. Tell me about that.

DAVE MEHREJE: It's a podcast with myself and my co-host feels an actual therapist. And we just every episode we tackle a different topic on mental health.

TP: And does the therapist listen to you do comedy and go, oh, my God, what's wrong with you?

DAVE MEHREJE: He actually goes, what's wrong with us when we talk about certain things on the pockets.

TP: That's good. Good to have him in the audience going. I don't know. I need to get that checked out.

DAVE MEHREJE: Yes. Actually said that multiple times.

TP: So, Dave, thanks so much for your time. Congratulations on everything.

DAVE MEHREJE: Thank you, Man.

MG: It's Tom Power, host of Q in conversation with the comedian Dave Merheje. Well, for listeners in Newfoundland and Labrador, cross-talk is up next. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday for everyone else. The Current is back in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to CBC Radio One.

Tom Power

Guest: Tom Power

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway Tom Power, host of Q is back. Hello, Tom.

TP: Matt, Sean Connery is walking around his home when a book falls on his head. What does he say?

MG: That's a good question.

TP: I only have myself to blame.

MG: I'm not going to do with the accent.

TP: I know that's the best I got, but that's the best thing. How are you doing?

MG: You arrive with news.

TP: I am here to tell you that Q is going to be back on the morning radio schedule as of Monday. This is the last day of the extended Current.

MG: We have been squatting in your timeslot.

TP: Well, you know, Matt, I just want to say it's been really fun to be with you on the past couple of months. I'm really excited to get Q back on the air in the morning. Listen, I can't say enough about the work you and your team have done over the past little while. They're not just keeping us informed, not just keeping us alert, but also bringing the humanity of this crisis to us every single day. And I know people can hear it on the air, but I see it in the hard work of all of your producers and of you. Obviously, this is a weird way to start a new job, man.

MG: Do you think?

TP: Yes, but I can. I think I can speak on behalf of the whole country, at least everyone here at CBC and say thanks to you and your team.

MG: You're very generous. And as I said, you've been generous and being on the program on a regular basis. And I said this on social media in many ways, it makes me feel a bit more normal to talk to you every single day about things and hear bad jokes, but also just talk about what's going on in the wider world beyond this pandemic. And hopefully as the story has changed, it's a lot different than it was a couple of months ago. We can get back to talking about some of the things that that make us human like arts and culture.

TP: Yes, it's been really fun to put together. Q Over the next week, what we're getting ready to put on for the next week, you know, it's a mix of how artists are dealing with the pandemic, how art is coming. I mean, one of the top songs on the radio right now from one pilots was recorded during the [unintelligible]. Is a new music starting to be made again? So we're going to talk a little bit about how artists are responding and reacting, still creating through the canteen. We're also just going to talk to people. We have an interview with Ricky Gervais is where we yeah, we talk a little bit about the quarantine, but mainly we just talk about him and his life and humanity and empathy. And I'm looking forward to it. And I'll miss the bad jokes. But I think I'll find a way to sneak on the air with you anyway.

MG: I think we'll work that out. In the meantime, we could set up some sort of toll free number where people could call and you could just tell them bad jokes.

TP: Yes, I give him bad jokes. You give them rhubarb. Does that sound?

MG: I would like that. Tom, you've been very generous over the last couple of months. Thank you.

TP: Thank you for all your work. Thanks to your team, too. We'll give you the keys back to the timeslots starting on Monday. That is it for us for today. And as Tom mentioned, that's it for this extended edition of The Current. I want to say thanks to all of you for listening and being with us over what has been a strange few months. Certainly one of the miracles of radio, I always say, is that you can have kind of this connection, a national conversation with people. And so if you can't come face to face with people and have those discussions while looking into somebody’s eye, hopefully we can have them on the radio. And I think we've done that over the last little while. So thanks for being with us. For the trust that you put into us to help tell the story, but also the role that you played in telling the story through your letters and through your comments and your stories and more. We've heard a lot over the last little while from people who also want to thank this amazing team at The Current that makes this show possible day in and day out. The people who are here in studio and also the people who have been working from home. Here they are. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Tracy Fuller, Paul MacInnis, Cameron Perrier, Travis Pereira, Mehek Mazhar, Vanessa Greco, Liz Hoath, Gary Francis, Austin Pomeroy, Julie Crysler, Matt Amha, Jason Vermes, Susan McKenzie, John Chipman, Rachel Levy-McLaughlin, Anne Penman, Lara O'Brien, Willow Smith, Samira Mohyeddin, Falice Chin, Peter Mitton, Emily Rendell-Watson, Padraig Moran, Caro Rolando, Joana Draghici, Sarah-Joyce Battersby, Ben Jamieson, Mary-Catherine McIntosh, Karin Marley, Idella Sturino, Alison Masemann, Ines Colabrese, Matt Meuse, Cathy Simon, Alex Zabjek, Joan Webber, Danielle Grogan, Howard Goldenthal, Richard Raycraft, Geoff Turner, Raj Ahluwalia.

The Current Transcript for May 15, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Provinces beginning to re-open

Three of Canada’s brightest on who we’ll be after the pandemic

Mother-daughter TikTok team; How tapping sugar maples is reconnecting me to the land — and my roots

Choirs finding ways to sing together while apart

Obamagate; Man makes hundreds of pies in lockdown for his community

Tom Power

Friday May 15, 2020 Full Transcript

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