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The Current Transcript for May 13, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JOE BIDEN: Do not send your kids, period. They're the most in jeopardy making that thousand mile trek. You can apply from your country. You don't have to make this trek.

MATT GALLOWAY: Despite the president's words, a humanitarian crisis is building on the U.S./Mexico border as migrants from Central America arrive looking for a better life. The U.N. deputy high commissioner for Refugees has been visiting the countries those migrants have been fleeing. In 30 minutes she's here to talk about what they need and what Canada can do now to help. Also this morning, we return to the city of Brampton, Ontario, where essential workers have been bearing the brunt of this pandemic. How are healthcare workers holding up? We'll find out. The reality is that many of those health care workers, whether in Brampton or Brandon, Manitoba, are women.

LAUREN MCKEON: In health care, child care, elder care, cleaning, retail clerks. Women have never been more important both in they're paid and unpaid function.

MG: In an hour, women of the pandemic. A new book looking at the work of women in this crisis from the front lines to the home front. But we begin with a nudge to get a needle. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Can incentives ease vaccine hesitancy?

Guests: Dr. Alex Wong, Timothy Caulfield, Maya Goldenberg

SCOTT MOE: Saskatchewan's reopening road map is a three step plan to gradually lift the current public health orders as Saskatchewan reaches significant vaccination level.

MG: Saskatchewan has revealed its reopening plan. The Premier, Scott Moe, dangled the idea of a summer with fewer restrictions. If enough people are willing to go out and get vaccinated.

SCOTT MOE: I know there are still people who are on the fence about receiving a vaccination. And I would say to them, it's time for you to get off that fence.

MG: The premier has a plan to help people off that proverbial fence of vaccine hesitancy. He has promised that three weeks after the province has vaccinated 70 percent of residents 30 or older, the reopening plan moves ahead to step two. It is an incentive for those who might not otherwise have been open to getting a dose, a carrot for people who have been living in lockdown on and off for over a year. Dr. Alex Wong is an infectious diseases specialist in Saskatchewan who has been a vocal proponent of tightening restrictions during the third wave in that province. He's in Regina. Doctor, good morning.

ALEX WONG: Thanks, Matt. Always a pleasure.

MG: Great to have you here. The premier has this three step plan to reopen it’s determined largely by vaccination rates. What do you make of this roadmap?

AW: You know, I think we sort of have to look at it for what it is, which is a positive thing that helps and motivates and incentivises the overall population in the province to go get vaccinated. And it helps to create this, I think collective sense of purpose, you know, for Saskatchewanians to move forward and to help encourage one another to do the same as a way to move towards more freedoms. And that's something that I think regardless of where you are sort of on the political spectrum or on whatever other spectrum that you might want to look at, that this is something that I think we all want. We all want more freedom. We all want, you know, safety. We don't want our health care systems to be overwhelmed. And getting there with a vaccine is one of the ways to do it. So we've been really trying to normalise and push vaccines in the province as hard as possible. So I think it's a good move. At the same time, there are steps in place in case things change with hospitalisations and so forth, you know, to be able to take a bit of a step back. So it's not all tied to vaccines, but I think it's definitely a positive thing.

MG: What could possibly be wrong with that? I mean, that idea that this is where we're going and if you do this, you get to this stage and if you do this, you get to the stage. And to your point, it gives people, you know, a sense of hope that this isn't going to grind on forever.

AW: Yeah, absolutely. I think it provides hope. It provides clarity, I think, in regards to what the future is going to look like, the roadmap sort of talks again about sort of, you know, how things are going to look in terms of restaurant and bar capacities, sort of capacity thresholds on things like retail and personal care services and so forth. So, again, I think overall, the consensus really is that this type of clarity helps, you know, and it helps to provide some understanding. And there are some timelines, expected timelines, you know, sort of tied to this sort of step to third week of June. And so, again, I mean, the province has done a pretty good job with rolling out vaccines. And so hopefully those timelines are going to stick.

MG: There was a similar rollout in the United Kingdom and they are well on their way to reopening. Do you think that this will get I mean, I'll use the phrase as the premier is using it the vaccine hesitant that are sitting on the fence. If you have defined goals, will it get them off the fence?

AW: I think it'll help. I don't think it's the only way that we should really kind of rely on to try to get those who are hesitant and those who have, you know, a lot of questions, a lot of concerns potentially about getting vaccinated. I think, you know, we've had a lot of discussions about how to engage individuals who are vaccine hesitant and really differentiating between the majority who are hesitant, who have questions or who may have some access issues, for example, and really kind of individualising that discussion, not using sort of like shame and blame tactics, but rather really trying to understand what their concerns are and engaging them sort of one on one, as opposed to sort of, you know, the anti vax type of individual where, you know, they're sort of dead set against vaccine. It's going to be difficult, I think, to move them to a different spot. But we believe very strongly that the vast majority of those who, you know, have not gotten vaccines, who are eligible, it's either an access issue or it's more of we still have questions and they need, you know, answers from someone that they trust. And so it is going to require a lot of work. But to me at least, I feel that that is a more meaningful way forward. And this piece around reopening and setting the road map definitely helps too.

MG: Is it premature to talk about reopening. I mean, how is the covid situation in Saskatchewan looking right now?

AW: Yeah, so, you know, we're a small province relative to Ontario and obviously the other big four provinces. So Alberta and Manitoba are still being hit real hard. We got hit really hard here in southern Saskatchewan, sort of at the very start, sort of from early March through until about early May. But, you know, certainly here in southern Saskatchewan, the curve has been coming down pretty rapidly. We're probably a couple of weeks ahead in terms of where that curve is relative to, say, Ontario and, you know, the rest of the province, it was really Regina that got hit hard. And, you know, we tried to make some measures to sort of restrict sort of travel in and out of Regina that probably helped to stem the tide of the spread of the variant in the province. And so Saskatoon has been flat, actually. And so it's been... we're super cautiously optimistic, I guess, at this point is a good way of seeing it. There's a lot of fear that things could change, but it's definitely looking a lot more positive. And as vaccines continue to roll out, that should continue to get better and better.

MG: With the variance on the rise. But also, to your point, I mean, with the provinces on each side of you still in a real crisis, do you think that the 70 percent vaccination rate is enough to keep people safe, to begin to move closer to a more normal existence?

AW: I think, again, it's a number that's been touted not only here in this province, but by other jurisdictions as well. Like the Biden administration talked about getting to 70 percent, 16 plus by sort of Independence Day, for example, state of Michigan has used the same sort of metrics. So it's not going to probably be good enough to achieve herd immunity. And I know we've had discussions about this. It's not clear that we're even going to be able to get to a level high enough to achieve herd immunity. But it probably will be high enough to get to a point where there will be a large degree of herd protection and, you know, then we can start moving towards a future. Probably our immediate best case scenario, where we're going to look at covid-19 as being endemic in something that we're just going to have to learn to live with. But it's not going to be something that's going to break the back of the healthcare system. You know, like it has like with this third wave. And so it seems like a reasonable number at this point, Matt.

MG: But again, that idea of hope is something that a lot of people are just looking for. And you can imagine it being dangled in front of them that they'll grab for it.

AW: Absolutely. And, you know, I think at the beginning of last week when there was a lot of positive stuff coming out with vaccines, our curves are coming down, Ontario's curve flattened out, start to come down. I think we all started to feel this collective sense of hope and optimism. I think for me, for probably the first time throughout the entire pandemic where I really actually started to see some light at the end of this really long tunnel. And so we still have a long way to go. And, you know, every person matters in terms of getting jabs into arms. But there is hope on the horizon. And I think myself, my colleagues and hopefully everybody, you know, feels the same way that there is that light that we can work towards.

MG: Alex, great to talk to you again. Thank you very much.

AW: Thanks so much, Matt. Such a pleasure.

MG: Dr. Alex Wong, an infectious diseases specialist in Regina. We did request to speak with an official from the Saskatchewan Ministry of Health to talk further about this reopening plan. But they did not get back to us. For the most part, in Canada, the vaccine rollout has been met with lineups and waitlists. So for many people, it might be hard to imagine having more doses than people who are willing to take those doses. But that is changing. And in some places it's already the situation. And there is a growing trend of incentives to entice people to get vaccinated from free tickets to virtual events to retail discounts to cold, hard cash. Like this, in this Arctic community:

VOICE: we have a bit of incentive going on here. The hardest hit place in Nunavut, five people, and they'll be getting two thousand dollars each for a draw that they could enter when they get their shot.

MG: And at the University of Lethbridge, another lottery:

VOICE: The draw is actually for nine fall tuitions. I think this is one of the most important sets of scholarships that we've ever created to create a positive energy around vaccination.

MG: Businesses are offering free beer, doughnuts and all kinds of freebies to those who have been vaccinated.

MIKE DEWINE: With a vaccine, White Castle is offering free butter cakes on a stick.

MG: That's the governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine. Nice of him to mention the free butter cakes on a stick. But in the next breath, he announced one of the biggest incentives going anywhere.

MIKE DEWINE: And the winner each Wednesday will receive one million dollars.

MG: You can imagine that might have a lot of people wishing they lived in Ohio. With me now to talk about incentives and vaccines are Timothy Caulfield, Canada research chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta, and Maya Goldenberg, an assistant professor of philosophy at the University of Guelph and the author of Vaccine Hesitancy, Public Trust, Expertise and the War on Science. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MG: Timothy. It's a far stretch from a free cookie butter take on a stick to a lottery for a million bucks. What are some of the other incentives that are being offered around the world thus far?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Well, you mentioned beer very quickly, that's real. New Jersey had a beer and a shot campaign, you know, West Virginia offering a 100 dollar bond. You know, so you're seeing a lot of these different different incentives. And, you know, there's some indication, there's some sense that they might be working.

MG: There is?

TC: Well, so, look, you know, offering incentives for behaviour change. The data, you might think it's obvious if you pay someone to change their behaviour, they're going to do it. Behaviour change is really, really tough. And so there have been studies with weight loss and studies with exercise and joining company wellness programmes, for eating better. And the data is kind of mixed incentives can, they can work. And I'm a little more optimistic when you're not talking about sustained behaviour change which a lot of the studies are associated with when you're talking about just doing this, this one thing. And there's a study from the UK quite recently that found, you know, adolescents had a pretty positive view of the idea of paying people to do this. West Virginia's reporting, there was an increase in interest, no surprise in vaccination. So there is some... it's complex, though Matt, I don't want to say that the data is absolutely clear. I think if it is going to work and Alex said this, Dr. Wong said this in his comment, I think we're looking at those who are, you know, complacent. You know, those who are hardcore anti vaxxers are not going to change their mind. There are those who are complacent. And I also think we have to consider the downside, there are equity issues. You know, we want to make sure we are moving barriers. We want to make sure that we're incentivising the right kind of attitude. You know, why are people actually getting vaccinated? So there's definitely complexities to it. But, hey, I'm open for ethical, creative ways forward. How's that for a response? [laughter]

MG: That's quite a needle to thread... ethical, creative ways forward in the vaccination programme. Maya Goldenberg in Saskatchewan, this incentive is a bit more abstract. It's the promise of a return to normal life. If a certain threshold is hit in terms of the number of vaccinations, do you think that's going to be effective?

MAYA GOLDENBERG: I think it could. It also wasn't exactly what I thought of when you say incentives, we usually think of individual incentives for the person to change their behaviour. This is a collective promise. So it goes a little beyond what we usually think of as doughnut's and free stuff from Starbucks. What's exciting about it is, it is actually pointing to the collective nature of vaccination and that sometimes gets lost in conversations and communications around vaccines. The idea that it protects yourself, of course, that's important and that most of the messaging around vaccines says that. But the real power of vaccines is in the collective protection. And this move by Saskatchewan is reminding us that we could do something together. And there's something nice about that I think could ring really true.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, based on the work that you've done around vaccine hesitancy, how far can an incentive go in changing somebody's mind? Who is on that fence, as the premier was saying?

MAYA GOLDENBERG: I confess, I haven't looked at incentives specifically. What I have looked at are, so my work has been on paediatric vaccines, my work... I've looked at mandates around vaccines and some mandates are, you must do it or you're punished for not doing. But others just create structures around it where it's things like, well, you don't have to vaccinate, but if you don't vaccinate, you're not going to be able to do a lot of things. So you can work in health care. But if you don't get the flu vaccine, you won't be able to work with patients. That's a common mandate around healthcare workers during influenza season. So no one is forced to do the thing that they may not want to do. But you create the structures in such a way that it becomes more and more difficult not to do it. So that kind of thing I'm familiar with that works really well as long as it's not perceived as heavy handed. So mandates even the sound of it sounds like it's going to punish people. But if you create the structure such that it is far more beneficial to do the thing, than not do the thing people do respond to that.

MG: Timothy there is... we've talked about this before, the difference between people being vaccine hesitant and somebody who is just outright opposed to the vaccination process. What do you tell somebody who is either hesitant or you use the word complacent earlier as well? What can be done to move them?

TC: Yeah, I think it's really important. And Maya knows this so well, not everyone's a hard core denier, right? Those people who aren't getting the vaccine, many of them may just be somewhat complacent. When you think about, you know, adolescents, for example, and I think it's that cohort that these kinds of incentives might have the biggest impact on. You know, so those hard core deniers who believe in conspiracy theories, we're not going to change their mind with a doughnut. We may not even change their mind with one hundred dollars or a lottery, but if you were someone who perhaps thinks I am young and healthy, you know, why should I get this? These kinds of incentives might work. And I totally agree with Maya. I like the incentive when it's tied to that collective nature of why you're doing this. You know, you're doing this not just for yourself, but for your community. And if I could I use a personal anecdote. One of my daughters goes to a school in the United States. She's in university in United States. And they used a version of the Saskatchewan approach that if we get over 90 percent, Matt, over 90 percent of the student body vaccinated, we'll open up the school. And it worked. And they also gave me fifteen dollars for a coffee or something, and it worked. And so if you're looking at that kind of population, this can have an impact. So, look, if we can even move it one to three percent, you know, that matters when we're trying to stop community spread.

MG: Maya, how does the idea of access to vaccines and the issue of equity of distribution play into this conversation? There are still, you know, large portions of the population where people are lining up for hours at a time. You know, all night vaccination clinics waiting on wait lists. Trying to actually just get the shot. They're not lining up to get a doughnut to get the vaccine. They're just waiting to get the vaccine itself.

MAYA GOLDENBERG: That should be the number one priority. So before we start thinking about which incentives, it should be doughnuts, it should be muffins, we need to be making sure that it's accessible. All these conversations about how to get those people who are a little bit reluctant cannot be done without making sure that access is involved. In fact, there's concern now that there's a tendency to start labelling communities with low coverage as vaccine hesitant when indeed they have an access problem. And those, too, that's not a compatible way of looking at things. You can't talk about hesitancy unless access is fully there. So access should be the number one priority.

MG: Timothy, what do you expect to see in the coming weeks when it comes to vaccine uptake in this country? We've just gone through a week of a, you know, what people are calling a communications debacle around AstraZeneca. And there are concerns as to whether this is... we talked about this yesterday, whether this could lead to people perhaps stepping away from the line that they might have been in to get the vaccine. What do you think is going to happen when it comes to vaccine uptake in this country over the next few weeks?

TC: Well, this is why I think this conversation is so important, because I think what we're seeing right now is this huge enthusiasm for vaccines, because it's all this individual stuff. It's pent up excitement about finally getting their vaccines. That's what we're seeing right now. But we're going to start bumping up against the hesitancy hurdle. And I like to call it a hurdle because I think we can get over it. And I think we are seeing it. We're seeing that in other jurisdictions around the world. Right. So I think we're going to start bumping up to... and that's why we have to get creative. And I totally agree with Maya number one, remove the barriers, make sure there's equitable access. Let's normalise getting the vaccine and let's make it, if there are incentives, let's make them prosocial incentives that celebrate getting the vaccine and celebrate how important vaccines are to the community.

MG: And hope? I mean, again, back to what we were saying with Alex, that if you give people, you know, the sense that the light at the end of the tunnel is closer and closer and closer, what does that do?

TC: I love that, too. You know, I think Dr. Wong hit it on the head. You know, if you have an incentive that is also tied to hope, to the future, to the light at the end of the tunnel, I think that you're going to see a little bit more of a positive attitude about that incentive, but also hopefully, hopefully about vaccines.

MG: Maya Goldenberg, do you think that Canada will hit a vaccination wall? And where would that wall be in terms of the number of people who... if we're trying to get to 70 percent or 80 percent, is there the possibility that we could hit a wall on the way there?

MAYA GOLDENBERG: Oh, yes, of course that's possible. I won't call it a wall. I actually liked the hurdle better. We're going to see it as we get into younger cohorts. So especially now we're just on the brink of talking about vaccinating teenagers. And the question... there will be questions about, do teenagers need to be vaccinated to go back to high school in September? You're going to get some resistance there just because the decision making is changing as we get into younger cohorts. So we know that a teenager who doesn't have other conditions is not at the same kind of risk as people, let's say 40 and up. So there's going to be that complacency there, as was mentioned, and wondering if this is being done to protect older people rather than protect the teenager themselves. So that's where we need to emphasise the collectivity of it. It is important to get vaccinated in order to protect other people, though, also to protect yourself. Also, the messaging should be targeted at teenagers themselves rather than their parents, because teenagers deserve a say in this. And it shouldn't just be the decision of the parents for teenagers.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this as the process continues to unfold across the country. Timothy, thank you.

TC: Thanks, Matt.

MG: And Maya thanks so much.

MAYA GOLDENBERG: Thanks so much.

MG: Timothy Caulfield, Canada research chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta. Maya Goldenberg, an associate professor of philosophy at the University of Guelph and the author of a book called Vaccine Hesitancy, Public Trust, Expertise and the War on Science. Your CBC News is next and then:

AMANDEEP KAUR: There is not a day when we don't receive an email. This decision is made and this will help us to ease the restrictions with the covid 19. But the question is, is it for Ontario or is this for the local community?

MG: That's Amandeep Kaur from our documentary about pandemic pressure in Ontario's Peel Region. In 15 minutes, we'll speak with Dr Amanpreet Brar about how she feels the provincial government has dealt with the crisis in that community. That's coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current and we're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

UNHCR’s Kelly Clements says Canada can do more to help Central American refugees and Ontario sick day plan "not enough" for essential workers, says doctor

Guest: Kelly Clements, Dr. Amanpreet Brar

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to the current.

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MG: Still to come from health care to child care, work that falls disproportionately on women shoulders is never done during a pandemic. In an hour, I'll be speaking with Lauren McKeon about her new book, Women of the Pandemic. But first, Joe Biden's border promises.

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MG: Donald Trump and his hardline immigration policies may be out of the White House, but America's doors have largely remained shut under President Joe Biden. Earlier this year, facing a surge of crossings at the southern U.S. border. He publicly told those thinking of making the trip not to come. Now, thousands of migrants and refugees claimants are living in camps on the U.S./Mexico border, their futures uncertain. Kelly Clements is the United Nations Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees. She's currently touring Central America and Mexico to assess the situation of those displaced by gang violence, political harassment and hunger. We have reached her this morning in Tapachula in southern Mexico. Kelly, good morning.

KELLY CLEMENTS: Good morning to you.

MG: Tell me what you've seen on your tour thus far.

KC: Well, I started in Honduras, actually went to the north, this time to San Pedro Sula, in addition to the capital city, had a chance to talk to a number of refugees, asylum seekers and even displaced Hondurans who were literally fleeing for their lives. Fleeing, as you mentioned in the opening, the gang violence, a territorial control, instability, gender based violence in particular is really acute. And then we went to Guatemala, which is a country where people are both transiting, but also leaving the country, but also finding asylum in the country and had a chance there to speak with refugees, but also with Guatemalans who had been displaced. And we just crossed the border into southern Mexico where we see, you know, really a country that has become a country of asylum as well. The pandemic has influenced the number of asylum claims that have been able to be lodged, but it's rapidly increasing and people are trying to, again, to rebuild their lives here, coming from El Salvador, Honduras and some from Guatemala as well. A very dynamic situation, but one that has enormous humanitarian need and obviously great responsibility for the countries of the region, but also here in Mexico.

MG: What have they told you about why they're on the move?

KC: Well, some had talked about the role of the [inaudible], the gangs that are basically controlling territory, controlling freedom. There really is a lack of freedom in these communities, taking land, taking housing, businesses, extortion. Young people are facing not just violence and for girls, sexual based, gender based violence, but forced recruitment both for boys and girls. I've talked to a number of young people really that did not see another way to save their own lives, but to run, to flee.

MG: Having left their home countries and been forced to be on the move. What are the conditions that they're in right now?

KC: And so some are seeking safety in shelters. And we actually went to a couple of shelters both in Tegucigalpa, the capital city of Honduras, but also in Guatemala. And some are in safe houses with, you know, we need to protect privacy and so on and protect them from those that are trying to find them. So living in quite precarious situations but being well cared for. Now, there are others that have not been able to... we've not been able to assist, identify. This is part of what we're trying to do with the governments is to be able to identify those in need of international protection, trying to refer them to places that can support them to try to find some kind of solution. Some, you know, both in terms of the support and humanitarian aid inside the country. But if there is not a long term solution in the country, other ways, for example, to provide protection in third countries, and that's where resettlement comes in, that's where the protection transfer arrangement the United States supports and now other countries support as well comes in. And this, I think, is, you know, part of the solution that we will see. And a key part of our focus is both to help countries build asylum capacity in the country. In Mexico, for example, there's been an enormous increase. Back in 2019, we saw about 70,000 asylum claims. We're estimating this year that we may see as many as 90,000. The same with Guatemala. There's been an 88 percent increase in asylum claims and then an increase in support. You mentioned food security at the top of the hour. We've seen the impact, both of the pandemic, but also the impact of the storms. And last November with, Eta and Iota really ravaging countries like Honduras with, you know, half a million hectares that were destroyed. You see that kind of displacement as well. So in terms of bringing humanitarian aid into these countries, that will remain important, everything from immediate humanitarian need to jobs, livelihoods, education, for example, particularly since we're talking about many young people, that kind of support is where we will see some focus on the root causes of displacement, and I think that will certainly help the situation.

MG: Are you confident that those root causes will be addressed? Kamala Harris, the vice president, has talked about travelling to Guatemala and there is a belief that change in administration would lead to addressing those root causes. Are you confident that that's likely to happen?

KC: That is certainly the message that we are receiving very strongly from the U.S. administration, and we welcome that. This is not something that can be addressed with humanitarian aid alone. You really need to look at why people are leaving. And I just mentioned a number of those aspects. And another important aspect is obviously poverty. And there, unless we can connect humanitarian aid and protection with Longer-Term solutions for people that are on the move. You're not going to really address the root causes of displacement. Development is one, but obviously governance, rule of law and certainly insecurity and the increased violence are all issues that need to be addressed. And we hear strongly from the administration that they're committed to doing so.

MG: But in the meantime, I mean, if you go back to the don't come message from Joe Biden, there are people who are gathering, approaching the U.S. southern border and the president has kept in Title 42, which essentially blocks non-citizens from entering the United States, saying that this is in the interest of public health. Where does that leave those who are seeking asylum?

KC: Certainly in my experience just in this trip. This is becoming an increasingly important mechanism for families to be able to rebuild lives before they get to the southern border. And in Mexico, as I mentioned, increase in asylum claims, a system that is trying to ramp up to support those requirements. And this becomes part of the solution and not just in Mexico, but obviously importantly in Guatemala. And Guatemala of course, is taking a leadership role in this regional protection solution strategy framework of which Canada is a strong member and supporter. These are the sorts of ways that, in fact, you find solutions for displacement before taking a very dangerous and perilous journey to try to seek safety at the southern border. So here in Tapachula, which is where I find myself today, the registration system that we've built with [inaudible], the ability for people to actually put their claims in, to be heard, to be then relocated in other areas of Mexico to find employment, job, putting their kids in school. This all becomes an important part of trying to help develop a regional approach to displacement. This is something that we have been building with the countries of the region, with the support of the United States, the support of Canada, the rest of the international community.

MG: What's the role of the international community in this and countries like Canada?

KC: This is really something that is a responsibility that the world community really shares. Certainly, it's not just a Central America story. It's a human story. And these governments that are trying to protect many thousands on the move need the support of the international community. And I'm not just talking in terms of the financial support that's required, but it's also the technical support with the asylum systems that they're trying to grow, the trying to address the poverty and development issues and the security issues that are at the root of some of this displacement. And this is something that I think is a responsibility of all of us really to help the countries in the region, but also importantly, those people on the move to help to rebuild their lives.

MG: We got a statement from the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship within the Canadian government, saying that in part, since 2015, roughly 17,000, 460 people from Central America and Mexico have sought asylum. In Canada, roughly 275 refugees have resettled here. Do you think that Canada should set new targets for refugees from the region specifically to help ease that crisis at the Mexico America border?

KC: You know, we are asking all governments to do more. There is enormous need. There are a large number of people that will not be able to find a future in their countries of asylum or even in their home countries, because of the reasons we talked about earlier, this is a new opportunity to to go higher, to to go broader in terms of that support. And certainly we would love to see Canada increase even further the number of people that they can welcome to canadian communities. They have been so generous over many years. We're also looking for other ways that people can find a way to support themselves. Labour migration becomes important, of course, humanitarian scholarship opportunities, any ways really that we can take a little bit of the burden of responsibility off of these countries, and these communities, in this region, but also to be able to provide a protection mechanism for those that are fleeing for their lives.

MG: I mean, the other issue here is that about 15,000 Guatemalans come to Canada every year largely as seasonal farm workers. Is there a way that you think that program could be expanded to accept more people, perhaps extend the stay of those workers or look towards a path toward citizenship in Canada?

KC: Certainly, any mechanisms that could be put in place to extend the opportunities would be most welcome.

MG: We know that the rates of gender based violence against women in Central America is incredibly high. Is there a role that Canada could play in helping women experiencing or fleeing violence?

KC: Canada has played a leading international role in helping to to find ways to protect those that are facing sexual and gender based violence. You know, I was quite struck, Matt, particularly in some of my conversations in Honduras with the increasing rates of femicide, gender based violence and other forms of really just unspeakable things that are happening to women in this region. And Canada has played a lifesaving role, you have quick mechanisms in order to be able to bring people, you know, out of harm's way. That as well as the focus on education, education of young people, but also education in terms of rebuilding lives.

MG: In the meantime, this is a growing crisis. And I mean, there's a political dimension to this. This is a humanitarian crisis as well. How urgent do you see the need to address this crisis based on what you've seen on your tour?

KC: This is my first international mission post pandemic. And I have to say the needs are quite urgent. We have a million people from Central America or in Central America that are forcibly displaced. We've got increasing requirements that need to be met quickly and again addressing those root causes we're in for the long term. But we need to be thinking short term in terms of some of that humanitarian aid and protection that is required now.

MG: Kelly, I appreciate speaking with you about this this morning. Safe travels. And thank you very much.

KC: Thank you so much.

MG: Kelly Clements is the United Nations Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees. We reached her in Tapachula in southern Mexico. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. The city of Brampton, Ontario, has been hit harder by covid than almost any other community in the country. And recently The Current spent a day in Brampton. Here's a bit of what we heard:.

[Sound Clip: Excerpt from The Current documentary, Braking Point]

MG: That's an excerpt from our documentary Breaking Point. While much of the country has been shut down, Brampton is a hub of activity. With factories and warehouses still operating. Workers ship thousands of packages across the country from this region just north of Toronto every single day. Dr. Amanpreet Brar is an advocate for the people of that area. She is now a general surgery resident at the University of Toronto. Doctor, good morning.

AMANPREET BRAR: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, I want to talk about what you see happening in Brampton, a city that you know well. But first, I mean, you're a resident studying to be a surgeon. This is the second year of this pandemic. How are you feeling and how are you doing right now?

AB: Thank you for asking. I mean, I think it's been a very difficult year for all of us, particularly for those in communities such as Brampton, which have been really hard hit the entire year. So it's been a very difficult year, working front lines and hospitals, but also because, you know, the communities have been affected so disproportionately throughout the pandemic.

MG: You grew up in Brampton. What was that like?

AB: Yeah, I grew up in Brampton, and in fact, when I immigrated to Canada, I worked in a lot of factories in Brampton myself through the temporary employment agencies there. And, you know, when the pandemic hit, I just couldn't imagine how... I knew right away that Brampton was going to be affected a lot because I knew it's the manufacturing and transportation hub. And, you know, from very early on in the pandemic, no one was talking about workplace, you know, control of the transmission, especially in the manufacturing and industrial area. And that had been my concern all along.

MG: How did the experience of growing up there, I mean, it's years later where you're a doctor, but do you think that that experience shaped the work that you do now?

AB: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the reason what really motivated me to advocate for the essential workers and precarious workers in Ontario as well as nationally during this pandemic was because of my work in Brampton. You know, as a new immigrant there, because of my work through temporary employment agencies where, you know, you're literally waiting every day in the evening for a phone call. And your next assignment might be in a Mississauga factory or in a Brampton factory. You're working across factories in the peel region and you don't have paid sick leave, you don't have job security, and you're struggling to meet the needs. And, you know, you can imagine how precarious that situation is for the workers and Brampton, especially as the labour, you know, house for that, for Ontario, it runs our economy. And so Brampton was really disregarded in the fact that it had been locked down in November 2020. Yet residents of Brampton were commuting while taking buses to go manufacture non-essential items even throughout this entire time. And there has been no focus to control workplace outbreaks. Even, you know, the last that I see from peel region, there's still active, 493 workplace outbreaks, majority of them being in manufacturing and industrial areas. And it's really frustrating to see that there's been such a loss of life and so much burden of disease. Yet the residents of Brampton continue to work with these temporary employment agencies and factories across the region, manufacturing, even sometimes non-essential items.

MG: You mentioned the paid sick leave and you and many other doctors were pushing for those paid sick days for those who didn't have them, the Ontario government legislated three paid sick days for employees during the pandemic. British Columbia announced its own program this week. Again, three days. Is three days anywhere near enough, do you think?

AB: It's not enough at all, it fails to meet the needs of the workers. I mean, three days is not enough to get tested, especially at workplaces where their active outbreaks with repetitive exposures. And it's not enough to get tested to isolate and then also get two doses of the vaccines as well. So three days is absolutely not enough. You need at least 14 days during a pandemic and 10 days even beyond the pandemic permanently. And the other other aspect of that paid sick leave is that often, you know, the manufacturing area as well as the long term cares during the economic uncertain time, which the pandemic has been, a lot of times when workers are employed, with a temporary employment agencies and, you know, often those workers are actually mislabelled as independent contractors because they don't really have an employer. They're going around different factories through the agency and sometimes working through multiple agencies. And if you read the new paid sick leave program, it says that independent contractors have been excluded from this program. So, you know, my obviously big worry is that that program is not even going to reach to those who need it. So really the most marginalised low-Income workers are not going to be receiving this program and they're going to be left behind again.

MG: What do you think when we come out of this pandemic that we will have learnt about how we treat and how we perceive those essential workers then?

AB: I think we would have learnt that Labour is such a huge determinant of health and, you know, all the social determinants of health that we learn about in medical school, in residency and in our day to day practise in hospitals, it really directly impacts the lives of our patients. And I think the pandemic just has shown to us very clearly how it does impact their life. And we really do need better labour laws in Canada. We need to better protect the most vulnerable workers and we need to regulate temporary employment agencies which have been rampant in Ontario as well as our nation as a whole. And we need to provide them basic benefits, such as paid sick leave, insurance or prescription medicine. So I think we're going to hopefully, you know, continue this conversation beyond the pandemic, because these workers will continue to put food on our tables and continue to remain invisible and unfortunately die invisibly unless we really advocate for them and continue to advocate for them.

MG: You have been outspoken on this issue and it hasn't been easy. I know that when you have talked about how the pandemic has affected your community, you have been personally criticised. You've been attacked on social media. What has that been like for you?

AB: Yeah, that was very unfortunate where I did, you know, get a personal racist hate messages, but I also have to say that messages were very quickly drowned by also a lot of positive messages from the Canadians. And that was very, you know, nice to see. And I think, I at any point do not want to turn my focus from continuing to advocate for those who need it. And I really hope we can empower the vulnerable workers to speak up for themselves, because if I'm getting those hate messages and, you know, if I would be... kind of you can imagine the vulnerability just of the workers who there's such a differential in power with their employers, what they would be going through. So I think I'm going to continue advocating and I urge all of us to collectively really advocate for the vulnerable and also empower them to speak up for themselves.

MG: What does it tell you that those messages would come your way? And I mean, it's fantastic that they were drowned out by the positive messages and the messages of support. But we've been going through this thing and there's this idea that we're all in it together. And when you speak about how it turns out, we're not all in it together, that somebody would take offence or people would take offence to that. What does that tell you about where we're at right now in this pandemic?

AB: I think it does highlight the systemic discrimination at a really large scale in our institutions and, you know, in our policy framework, at our government level, really at every level, so to speak, as well as at an individual level, it speaks to systemic discrimination. And really systemic discrimination has led to inequitable policies during the pandemic. And I mean, I don't think this is new. I think the pandemic has kind of unmasked those inequities very easily. And in front of us, we collected the data and it really showed us the inequities. And we have to continue to collect data on health outcomes. And I think we'll see that these policies, if we are going to implement an equitable policy, it will always lead to an inequitable outcome. So I think it highlights that. And I hope we do better, you know, as Canadians moving forward.

MG: Are you confident just finally that we will? That now that that has been, as you say, it's not new, but that it has been in some ways exposed in a different way that we will do better?

AB: Well, that's my hope, is that we do better and that we hope... we continue these conversations beyond pandemic because, you know, these inequities have existed for decades and communities such as Brampton have been underfunded for a really long time. I mean, you know, and the healthcare has been underfunded there for decades, having one hospital and a population of almost up to 700,000 and not getting an isolation centre for a year into the pandemic. I mean, that highlights, you know, how these communities get left behind and how inequitable policies lead to inequitable outcomes. So I hope really we do better.

MG: Doctor, it's great to speak with you about this. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

AB: Thank you so much.

MG: Dr. Amanpreet Brar, general surgery resident at the University of Toronto. Well, coming up after your regional update:

CORA MOJICA: My name is Cora Mojica. I work at Vancouver General Hospital.

PRAMIE RAMROOP: My name is Pramie and I work for a food processing plant.

MG: We'll meet two of the women on the front lines of covid-19, along with Lauren McKeon, whose new book is called Women of the Pandemic. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Author Lauren McKeon on pandemic’s impact on women

Guest: Lauren McKeon

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current. Health care, child care, elder care, front line work, cleaning, home schooling. If that pandemic To-Do list sounds familiar, well, you're amazing wherever you are and whoever you are. Those are some of the burdens that have fallen disproportionately to women during covid-19 in this country. Women have, as we've been talking about on this program, also been hit harder by job losses and pay cuts. But many are hoping that when the country bounces back, women will, too. Lauren McKeon wanted to chronicle some of the experiences of women in this country during the pandemic. Her new book is called Women of the Pandemic. Lauren, good morning.

LAUREN MCKEON: Good morning.

MG: We are still in the thick of this and we've been talking about, you know, light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully it gets here sooner rather than later. But in the midst of this, why did you want to tell these stories now?

LM: I think that whenever there's a huge crisis we've seen historically that we don't often hear women stories or if we do, you know, it's the wife of some man who's famous and or the sister or something like that. And I think that, you know, I didn't want to lose these stories this time. They're so vital. Women have played such a huge role in the pandemic, from leadership to front line essential workers. And they've also been the ones who arguably have lost the most. And I think that we need to honour those stories and hear those stories.

MG: Early on in the book, you say that one of the goals of the book in some ways was to show how covid changed all of us. And I mean, I think, you know, on a basic level, we can feel that. But if you step back beyond that, how do you think covid has changed us?

LM: I think that in so many ways, it's almost difficult to know where to start, right. And for everyone, it's so different. But I think it's shone a light on so many inequities and it made so many things unavoidable and urgent. And these conversations and particularly the conversations that we've been having around women and inequity, it's changed the stakes on those. And I think, you know, we've seen how unsustainable motherhood can be and the pressure we put on mothers and we've also seen how we really don't support women in ways that we should across the board.

MG: And to your point, I mean, you write in the book, women have never before played such a role in a global crisis or suffered the most. In pulling this book together and speaking with the women that you profiled. Tell me a bit more about that and how that has played itself out over the last year and a half or so.

LM: Yes, I mean, in part because women have not been able to play those roles, you know, we haven't had women leaders historically, we haven't had so many women in leadership roles. And we've really seen the way that women leaders have stepped up and shown us really, I would think, a different way of leadership, leadership that's kind, compassionate, puts human life and value first, isn't heavy on politicking. So I think we see that. And that is so different from the types of leadership that we've seen or that, you know, the roles that we've seen women play. On the flip side of that, we've really seen mothers suffer. We know that 12 times as many mothers as fathers have left work to care for children. It's the first time in history that we've seen what's been called a she-session. So there's both sides of that coin where we've seen incredible stories of women and we've seen incredible suffering.

MG: This book profiles women from I mean, this huge range of different fields. There's doctors, there's workers at meatpacking plants, there are community advocates. There are people who are working in the home. If you take a look broadly, I mean, are there themes that connect their various experiences?

LM: Yes and no, and I think that's a really tough question to answer, in part because I think, you know, we've had at the beginning and this has been touched on before, you know, there is this myth of, the pandemic would be the great equalizer. And we've seen that's not the case. What it's really done has exposed inequities. And I think that it is important to underscore that women have had very diverse experiences too. Women like me, have had the privilege of working from home. Other women have not had that privilege and have been forced into vulnerable positions and have not been taken care of and are at the highest risk. So I think we have to underscore that not even women have experienced it the same. That said, you know, a lot of these women are mothers. That's certainly a common experience from the women that I spoke to from developing the vaccines, to the women who are going to the grocery stores and working front lines. And they've had to juggle that. And I think. The resilience that women have shown has definitely been a common link and that strength. Every woman I spoke to was just absolutely inspiring and every conversation I had just kind of stuck with me for days.

MG: That idea of shining a light on something that was there but perhaps wasn't being observed is a really powerful sentiment. And some of the women that you interviewed work in these essential roles that we rely on, but that they're largely invisible to the public. Let's hear from one of those women that you profiled.

PRAMIE RAMROOP: My name is Pramie and I work for a food processing plant. I've worked there for 22 years and I'm a package lead hand there. It was very scary for me. The pandemic affects everyone around. We didn't understand what was happening, like how we could have got this virus from each other at work. Where we work, we work really close to people. So it's like a line you have to line up in a line to work. It was very troubling at times. I'm still afraid because the virus is still going on in the processing plant, but we put some safety measures in place. For example, we are taking temperatures at the door before entering, we have face shields, we have masks, we have gloves, we have one we in, we have one way out. We also have a lot of sanitisers all over the place. You have sanitisers blowing on your foot while you're walking, going through the door. When I come home, I will put a dip in the garage so I could dip my shoe and leave it there because I didn't know what else to do, like when you come in. So I didn't want to bring my shoe in. I'm straight up to shower and don't talk to anybody. Don't sit anywhere. But what I want to say is I had to go to work. We didn't have no choice. In 2020, we didn't have a day off. We work all through our Canada Day holidays. Everything, we had to work just to keep food on the shelf for Canadians’ families. And it was kind of difficult because we were working seven days a week just to keep the shelves full, not not to have any food shortage. So we were working really hard.

MG: It's an incredible story, Lauren. I mean, in some ways this feels like an obvious question, but why is it important to hear a story like that, a story that perhaps we don't hear very often, but that we rely on in terms of what she was saying and getting the food on the shelves?

LM: Yeah, I think, you know, when I was doing that interview with Pramie, I talked to her a few times. But, you know, she said people don't hear about our stories unless one of us dies. And that was sort of like a gut punch to me. And, you know, what a truth that is. And I think that, you know, it's important for us to hear these stories because it's too easy to ignore them, for one. And we shouldn't. You know, I remember, you know, being in the grocery store and people complaining that, you know, there was no chicken or like, you know, no beef. And people were so angry, but not realizing the flipside of that is because these factories in these places have workers that are very sick and can't come to work and people are dying. You know, and I think we need to know that that happened and to talk about that and to realize that these people need more job security. They need paid sick days. They need to be able to take off a day, you know, between now and Canada Day, you know, and we can't ignore these stories. We can't forget them.

MG: And we need to I mean, part of that's paid sick leave, and part of it is also just compensation. I mean, we need to not just hear the stories, but also think differently about who we value and how you assess that value.

LM: Yes.

MG: One of the things that also comes out is that, you see this work unfolding in perhaps food processing plants in the factories where things are being made or being shipped around. There are also many women who've been working in hospitals throughout the pandemic, not just the medical staff, but people who are doing cleaning, who are doing meal prep, like this dietary aide who is in Vancouver.

KAREN MOJICA: My name is Karen Mojica. I work at Vancouver General Hospital as a dietary aid. Work changed a lot because now we have to really follow the procedures. That way, no one is infected, where you have proper PPE, all those sort of things. It's a scary, scary feeling. Right. We really have to be vigilant to stay safe and at the same time go back to the patients. Like I say, it takes a lot to right. Before COVID, most of us are working two or three jobs to make ends meet. When the pandemic came, you're just allowed to work in a single site to prevent spreading. At the gates we have two sites that are considered long term care, and in those sites they have what they call a top up. So the wages are more higher than regular wage. In our kitchen where I work, we prepare and serve the food on the trays that is being delivered to those areas, the long term care. And after that, when everything... they got everything, all the dirty dishes and all of those sort of things, they bring it back to our kitchen. We do the stripping, cleaning and washing and everything sorting out. It's kind of unequal, really, because, like I say, we're all [inaudible]. We're all doing the same thing. It just so happened that those who are on that area, who are just serving the food. They are the ones getting the top up, not everyone.

MG: So just to be clear, some of her workers, I mean, they're all working in the same place, but some co-workers are getting a wage top up, but not everyone is. And she can't work in more than one place anymore. And so in some ways, she's being penalized by this. What does her experience tell us, do you think, Lauren?

LM: I think, you know, there was a lot of talk about hero pay and that top up, and it made the public feel good, you know, like we were doing something, we were taking care of people. But as we've seen in the hospitals, as we've seen with PSWs, the top up was not equally applied. It was short lived in a lot of cases, and it really wasn't enough. You know, I think we need to remember that people working these jobs and women working these jobs are not paid enough. That is why they have to work two to three jobs to make ends meet. Right. They're not paid a fair living wage. And I think that there are so many things to learn from the pandemic going forward. But this is certainly one of them, is that we need to take care of these people. They are doing vital, important work. They play vital roles. Hospitals are not just made up of doctors and nurses. There's cleaners, there's dietary aides. There's so many people that are going to work to battle the pandemic and they should be paid well for it.

MG: Tell me the story of Pressie Miguel. Is that her name? She's a housekeeper at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver. She slept in her car?

LM: Yes, she said sometimes... that they're pulling double shifts, some people are scared to come to work, understandably so, they're short staffed. People like her will say yes to a double shift. But, you know, we have to remember, we heard a little bit from Pramie about cleaning and running up to the shower. And that was we didn't know anything about the virus at the beginning. So the thought of working a double shift and doing all that cleaning and making sure your family at home is safe. Her parents live at home and making sure that they're safe and doing all your clean routines is too exhausting to contemplate that. So she just slept in the car parking lot between shifts so that she didn't have to go home and do all of that. And that is a devastating story. But it's not an exceptional story. People are doing this. It is very common to hear stories like that. And I think we don't want to lose those stories because that's just exhausting to contemplate, you know, it's exhausting and we shouldn't have to do that, we should have the staff so that people shouldn't have to do that and they should be paid properly so that they shouldn't have to do that.

MG: Is your hope in not losing the story... and we'll come back to that again. But this is something that you've raised a couple of times already. And it comes up in the book as well, is your hope that in not losing those stories and capturing those stories, that we won't just not forget about this, but that we will actually take action so that she doesn't need to sleep in her car, so that workers can get a day off or they feel like they're actually being compensated and valued for the work that they're doing, the important work that they're doing. That action will come out of those stories.

LM: I want to believe that so badly because I think that, you know, we talk a lot about returning to normal or the idea of new normal and what it will look like. And I think, you know, obviously we all want this pandemic to end. But so many women that I spoke to cringe at this idea, recoil at the idea of normal, because why would we want to go back to normal? We've learnt so much, we've had so much exposed and underlined that why not build something better? Why not use everything that we've learnt as a blueprint for something better? And I think to do that, to move forward with our most vulnerable in mind first and thinking about them, we need to hear those stories and we need to hear their voices. And I think, yes, my hope is that we will listen to these stories and hear them and really think about what we want our normal to look like.

MG: You have a chapter called The Crisis at Home. And for many people, the crisis has been at home. You write, many fathers, particularly single fathers, felt the pain, too. But this is different for women. How was what women went through? I mean, again, women who have experienced this would know, obviously. But what did you learn in hearing these stories that showed you that the crisis at home was different from others?

LM: I mean, we know there were studies even before the pandemic, so we know it's been shown time and time again that women do the bulk of the housework and the child care work and the elder care work, if they have elderly parents living at home, even in homes where fathers might think that they're doing as much, they've done time studies and they show that fathers can sometimes overestimate the amount of work that they're doing. So I think that has remained a true for the pandemic. And, you know, there have been studies that have broken down women's time spent during the pandemic, especially if they're working from home or working outside of the home and between the child care, helping Zoom school and all of that, the cleaning, them making lunches and dinners, they had like 2.3 Hours left to sleep. How do you fit all that in? You can't. It's impossible. It's exhausting. And then adding on the emotional labour of that, you know, taking care of people, taking care of your children who don't know what's happening or why they can't see their grandparents or their friends. Who are having meltdowns because remote schooling is incredibly difficult. You know, I think the texture of women's lives has just been so different and the unequal division of care at home has only been exacerbated by the pandemic.

MG: We were talking about hope earlier in the program and the idea of dangling hope in front of people that whether it's through vaccinations or through public health measures, that people could hope for a better summer, for example, that there could be, you know, schools perhaps opening before the school session ends, that there could be sports camps or there could be opportunities for kids to get out of the house. How important is it for mothers to see things like sports or camps or school safely open, given what you've just described about the crisis at home?

LM: Every mother I've spoken to has told me that it's desperately needed and of course, that makes sense. And we've seen the announcement, the recent announcement of affordable child care being introduced. That is also very vital. And I think those things are lifelines for mothers who are trying to navigate child care, remote schooling and work. They need support and they have not received nearly enough support and as I said earlier, that we know that 12 times as many mothers as fathers in Canada have left their jobs to look after their kids. That is a scary number that should really stop us. And we need to do more so that, you know, the reverberations of this don't set women back in the workplace and in their careers for decades to come.

MG: What did you learn in hearing these stories? As you're living through it, you're hearing the stories at the same time.

LM: So much, you know, I learnt so much, and I think it... I feel incredibly grateful that I spoke to over 50 women and I feel like so incredibly grateful that they were generous enough to just spend that time with me and to be emotional and raw and open and to share their struggles. You know, I learnt that women are incredibly resilient, but I also learnt and one woman told me this herself, she lives in North Preston and she was involved in getting the community their covid testing site because they went overlooked, as North Preston often does, as many people probably know, it's a historically black community. And she was telling me that she also saw the resilience in her community going through this, but that they shouldn't have to be resilient is such a double edged sword. Often resilience comes out of not having enough resources, not having enough support, having to do the hard things that other people might not have to do. And I think that is, that really was underscored in a lot of the discussions I had. It was incredibly inspiring to see the resilience, but also heartbreaking that a lot of these women were not receiving the care that they should and the support that they should and that they had to be so resilient and so tough and so strong.

MG: Is your sense that women are in a position to have. A strong role in the post pandemic recovery, again, if this flips the script and puts women at the front lines when we get out of this, where will that leave women? Do you think?

LM: Yes, and we've already seen some leadership in our health fields, in our health leadership, we've seen women craft new narratives and we've seen worldwide women lead countries have done better on the bulk in terms of death rates and illness rates, because studies have shown they've put human life first and they've put people's health first and care first. And I think that. You know, we need more women leaders, I would love to see more women leadership and we need to value those leaders. And I think that the more we can see women play roles across the board, that we will see a different sort of recovery. You know, I think that is a silver lining in this very terrible year is the types of leadership roles that we're seeing women step into and the way that they are doing things differently.

MG: Lauren, it's great to speak with you this morning. Thank you very much.

LM: Thank you.

MG: Lauren McKeon is the deputy editor of Reader's Digest Canada and the author of No More Nice Girls. Her new book is called Women of the Pandemic.

MG: Well, that is The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power, speaking with the lead singer of the Offspring, punk rock band that's been around for a long time, their new album is just out. The lead singer has an interesting job. In addition to being a guy who screams in a punk rock band, sings, screams. He also has a Ph.D. in molecular biology and has been thinking a lot about vaccines and vaccinations and the pandemic. You'll hear all about that coming up on CBC Radio One in just a few moments, on Q. We were speaking earlier on The Current about this idea of offering incentives for people to get vaccinated. Offspring kind of changed one of their songs to kind of hint at that, just to kind of move people along who may be sitting on the fence. Last weekend in the United States, the anti-poverty group Global Citizen hosted a concert called VAX Live. A concert to reunite the world politicians, musicians, philanthropists, all doing their best to convince people to get their shots, even a royal cameo, Prince Harry, Meghan Markle co-chaired the event, and Jennifer Lopez and her mom co-performed Sweet Caroline. So we'll leave you with that. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Sound Clip: Jennifer Lopez and her mom singing Sweet Caroline]

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