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The Current Transcript for May 11, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Well, we're dealing with unique circumstances, of course, and people are stepping up and doing things that they might not ordinarily do and trying to figure out where they can be the most help.

MG: Among those stepping up in this pandemic is Dr. Jane Philpott. Initially, she was working at a COVID-19 screening clinic. Now she's on the front lines at a home for adults with physical and mental disabilities. The former federal health minister is here in 30 minutes to talk about what she's learned about the state of our health care system and where that system needs to go from here. Also this morning, what's kept you calm in these wild times? Is it perhaps the family dog? If so, you're not alone. We'll hear how dogs have helped ease our anxiety. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I'm saying unequivocally, it never, never happened. And it didn't. It never happened.

MG: Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden responding to a sexual assault allegation from a former staffer, Tara Reade. In an election year like no other and in the wake of MeToo, how Democrats are squaring Biden's denials with a desire to believe women. Plus, we remember the rock and roll electrifier, Little Richard. We begin though in your house a few months into home schooling. How's that going? Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is an extended edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Parents, teachers and kids struggle with e-learning

Guests: Caroline Arsenault, Kimiko Shibata, Randy Labonte

MG: For a lot of people, it's all a blur. The speed with which this pandemic turned the school year upside down. For many, chaos has ruled. Parents figuring out how to be teachers, teachers testing the limits of their technical abilities and students, well, let's face it, a lot of the students are playing a lot of video games. One of our listeners, Kearie Daniel, asked her two kids what learning at home has been like.

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VOICE 1: OK, what's it like to have mummy as your teacher, sometimes, daddy as your teacher?

VOICE 2: It's sometimes really fun, sometimes really hard. I don't like being stuck in the house all day. And when my parents around and you're doing work, they pressure you a lot.

VOICE 1: What about you?

VOICE 3: It's fine. It's think fun. But I don't get like that much work done and I miss my friends, my teacher. And I miss my whole school. And it's hard.

MG: That honesty is real. It's hard on everyone. Some people are really struggling. Have a listen to this mom of teenagers from Owen Sound, Ontario.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: My 15-year-old son is getting lots of hours on his X-Box and my 13-year-old daughter is the loneliest kid in the world. So I don't know who's teaching them, but it isn't me because I'm not a teacher and I have a job and my husband has a job. So what do you do with those kids? There's nobody here to watch them all day and make sure that they do anything they're supposed to do.

MG: While most don't see an end in sight, we should mention that some students in Quebec are heading back to school today. This morning we're asking what we've been learning from the past few months about learning from home. Caroline Arsenault is a mom with two kids and a full time job. She is in Halifax. And Kimiko Shibata is a teacher with the Waterloo Region School Board. She's in Kitchener, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Good morning.

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Good morning.

MG: Caroline, that mom we heard just a second ago is really struggling and talked, I think in a pretty honest way about what a lot of us are going through and trying to figure out what this new reality looks like. What's it been like for you? How have you survived this experience with your kids?

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Well, I can really relate to what that mom was saying. It's been it's been a real challenge when all of this started. And we got the home learning plan from the government of Nova Scotia. I was really motivated to try to get a program going and get started. You know, I had a binder printed. I had these boards for each of my children, but it quickly fell apart. It was too much for all of us. And so we've just decided to pull back and to focus on the school of life type of activities.

MG: What does that mean, school of life?

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Well, of course, my kids, you know, they also get a lot of screen time, but we try to focus on regular, everyday things. They do laundry with us. They do dishes. They help with cooking. We try to get some outdoor time. And we try to follow whatever interests they have. So if a question comes up, like last week, my daughter asked, why do we get busy when we spin? Well, we try to do a bit of research and and learn that way based on everyday situations that come up or questions that the kids have.

MG: And why, I want to bring Kimiko in to this in just a moment, but why for you has that been a better approach than what you started out with in terms of the whiteboard and a very programmatic, if I can put it that way, approach to dealing with homeschooling?

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Well, my kids I quickly saw that my kids, it's way more than just worksheets, you know, school. So my son isn't grade six and he was having a really hard time focussing on what needs to be done with with his assignments at home, getting all the resources he needed. Being able to, you know, interface with the technology. And my daughter, who was in grade three, I think needs access to her teacher and to her peers in school. And again, to all of the resources that are normally in a classroom that I just can't offer as a parent. I'm also working full time, you know, managing the household with my husband. We have other things that that require our attention. So it was becoming really stressful and really difficult and things were getting really tense. And I just thought my kids are not learning optimally if everyone is is really tense and stressed out. So we're just going to pull back. We're going to make sure that they read every day that they connect with their teachers when they have their Google Hangouts. But otherwise, we're going to take a more relaxed approach.

MG: Kimiko Shibata, you're on the other side of this as a teacher. What has it been like for you to pivot to teaching online?

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Yes. Well, actually, I can relate as well as a parent, because I will be completely honest. We are not logging on to my daughter's classroom every day because like you as a working mum, I can't be at all of my online meetings assisting all of my students and their families while also helping her to do her work. And we know that young children are not independent online learners. I have a little one kindergarten and everything that she does has to be done with me together. And so there's days, we just don't log on and we don't get everything done. And I'm so glad to hear that you understand that whole school of life. Right? We do need to validate the learning that's inherent in basic household tasks, measuring out ingredients for baking and cooking, going for nature walks, writing about and taking pictures of animals and insects and plants, watching how they change and grow and really tapping into kids interests. Because my daughter as well, she's very interested in a lot of the science topics and things and animals. And when we we can just easily research things that she's interested in and read those books and she's doing so much learning. It's not always the learning that's set out for her to learn in her classroom. And that's okay. I think we need to be really reassuring parents.

MG: Well, how has that shaped you as a teacher what you're providing to your students? You teach ESL, English as a second language.

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Yeah. So my students are anywhere from kindergarten to grade six. And really tapping into interest has always been a passion of mine with my students. So we're doing writing well. How what we're writing about something that you're interested in as opposed to something that I'm assigning to you. And the volume is a lot a lot better when kids are given that open rein of choose your topic. What are you interested in learning about? How can I help you to learn that? And I have another, you know, a specialised role. So. The ability to modify things for my kids that way. But, you know, I think during a middle of pandemic pandemic, the more we can offer kids, you know, their own student voice, their own student choice, letting them do things of personal interest, that better learning, we're going to get out of them at this time.

MG: Do you feel, just briefly, do you feel as a teacher that you're connecting with those students through the online portal that you're operating through?

KIMIKO SHIBATA: I do in a limited way. I'll be completely honest, this online distance learning like this is not in any way replicating what happens in a classroom. This isn't regular times. This isn't a regular school experience. This is not even you can't even call it e-learning. It's emergency distance learning. It's not meant to replicate a regular classroom experience. You can't give kids that intense one on one in that small group experience, that guided reading, experience, that immediate feedback. That just doesn't happen. Even when we're trying to integrate some video options in Google Hangout and various things like that, we still won't be able to provide kids with the same thing they had in the classroom. So I think we just need to acknowledge upfront this is a stopgap measure to get us all safely to this pandemic, but nothing about this is business as usual.

MG: We've been hearing from kids about what it's like to be in this new environment. Have a listen to this 9-year-old and what the 9-year-old said on the CBC call-in show last week.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's horrible to have your parent as a teacher because there's no difference between school and home. And so is homework school or like the school day or is it just homework?

MG: It's horrible to have your parent as a teacher. Caroline, you talked about changing your approach. How did you deal with the expectations that we as parents are under when it comes to this new reality?

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Well, it started with taking a close look at what I what was my priority, really? And my priority was my kid's well-being and their mental health and also my mental health. So with that priority in mind, it was easier to decide to stop fighting. You know, several hours a day about schoolwork and just choose a different path. I mean, it's the expectations of parents are huge. We've lost access to our whole village right of supports that we normally can rely on. So parents have to play all of the roles in their child's life. And so I think that I try to give myself permission to just take one of those hot sauce and focus on on family wellbeing and health and and getting us safely through the pandemic.

MG: Kimiko, I could hear you in the background agreeing.

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Yeah you could hear me going mhmm, that's right. No, Caroline, I'm 100 percent there right with you, right? Like and we're in a situation, I'm assuming just from some of the things you're saying, like you are in a situation where you're not necessarily having to worry about where your next meal is coming from. And I'm hearing that you're a you know, a fluent English speaker. You're not probably new to the country. You have lots of privilege and so do I and if we're finding it hard as parents to to do that schoolwork and to deal with the stress that it's putting on our kids, I just imagine. Right. Our newcomer, refugee families, we've got families who are living with addiction and mental health issues. We have so many vulnerable and in risk marginalized families in our communities. Some don't have the Internet bandwidth to participate or the technology. We have kids who don't know where the next meal is coming from. We have so many families that are going through really tough times that are just the stress load on them is incredible. So they're in that sort of trauma brain right now. And as a society right now, we are all going through this really this collective traumatic experience right now and everyone's feeling very real feelings of helplessness, loss and grief. And, you know, we're not people are thinking, oh, we're not in the same boat, but we're all in the same storm. So we all have different experiences in our homes.

MG: What do you say Kimiko then to do the parents of those students that you're teaching about those expectations? Because we hear from parents like Caroline about how she's managing those expectations, but on the other side, what about what the teacher says about how to manage those expectations?

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Well, my personal belief and this is again, this is not what the Ministry of Education is saying or whatever, or my employer, but my personal belief is that any learning in elementary school right now needs to be presented as optional. Like the things that are that we're accessing through the portals, et cetera. I think that need that message should really be to let parents relax a little bit that this is optional. We're being given, you know, so far we've been given direction that marks are going to be sort of based on the things the kids did. Up until the school closure and that kids can improve their marks. But anything else is just that sort of formative assessment, assessment for learning, but not evaluating what kids are doing. And because not everyone is able to fully participate in them or wants to fully participate in it. I think it's fair to say, you know what, if your family is in a place where schoolwork is your 100 percent priority and you're in that place where you want to do things great, we should be providing activities for you to do. However, if you feel like this isn't something you can handle right now, that needs to be OK. Right. I think we just need to have that permission and extend that grace to families. It's okay that your kid is your kid reading. Are you reading books through your kid? Are you baking together? Are you doing things together? Spending time, going for walks? Great. That's awesome. That's awesome parenting and it's awesome learning.

MG: I think there's a lot of parents that will be happy to hear that message from the teacher as well. It's great to speak with you both. Good luck. It's a struggle and everyone's in this, as you say, in different ways, but we're all in the mix on this. Thank you both for talking to us.

CAROLINE ARSENAULT: Thank you.

KIMIKO SHIBATA: Thank you so much.

MG: Caroline Arsenault is a mom with two kids and a full time job. She's in Halifax. Kimiko Shibata teaches English as a second language. She was in Kitchener, Ontario. Randy LaBonte is an educational consultant and CEO of the Canadian eLearning Network. He's been listening in from Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia. Randy, good morning to you.

RANDY LABONTE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How do you react when you hear stories of parents like we just heard from, one of whom who's a teacher who's essentially said, you know what? I get what we are being offered here, but this is not possible and we'll do what we can.

RANDY LABONTE: I have to say, I was heartened to hear the words and the direction that both Caroline and Kimiko have both gone in in terms of saying, look at what your children are curious about, capitalize on their inquiry. This is not e-schooling, this is an emergency situation. I would go one step further from Kimiko calling it emergency remote learning or distance learning. I would say it's emergency remote teaching because it really is a one way. I've seen teachers go out of their way to try to build some type of connection with students, social emotional connection. So we have parades of cars going through neighbourhoods. That's an important aspect. We're here. We're trying, we're doing our best. But this is not typical schooling and this is not e-learning.

MG: We've been hearing from students. We asked our listeners for their thoughts. We got a note from a Grade 8 student named Ryan. He wrote that one of the good things about online learning is that he has more confidence using technology now says he can manage his studying time and focus on subjects that interest him. But he said he misses his friends and remote learning makes him lazy and disorganised. How typical do you think that is of the experience of students right now in this new universe?

RANDY LABONTE: Well, I would say that it probably summarizes it quite, quite well. The recent surveys and studies have shown that will probably be less than than a quarter of the students are actually actively engaged with their teachers in some capacity. And I know from my own perspective, I've got grandchildren and I know that one of my daughter's children is an avid reader. She connects. She does all of her work. She is bored. She misses her friends and that, but her younger brother doesn't connect. He sits on a chair and spins around when he's supposed to be in front of the screen and for the most part, he just kind of twiddles around. I think in terms of my days in elementary school, I needed to connect and understand what each of those children that came into my room were about. And I had the advantage of having the whole physical connections, all of the social, emotional connections that occur when we're physically in the same space and that is different online. Not to say we can not build those connections, it's just completely different. It takes a different mindset and set of conditions and learning experiences. So the fact that there is some competence in using technology I think is positive. We have to take that when we look at what we're going to do it September and in education. I think we have to expand to the digital learning environments, but not expect that it's going to be the be all and end all technology and e-learning is not going to solve this problem. But best learning that occurs is the connection that occurs between the teacher and the student or whereas in Caroline's case, it's between the parent and the child.

MG: There are a lot of people who see this as a foreshadowing of what may come when it comes to the future of education here in the province of Ontario. There's been a great fight over mandatory e-learning and that's being replicated in other jurisdictions as well. Have a listen to Daniel Ansari who's a professor of psychology and education at Western University in London, Ontario, holds a Canada research chair and development cognitive neuroscience and has real concerns around what this might do when it comes to the future of e-learning.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: There has been for a long time a great enthusiasm around e-learning, but many of the attempts have failed miserably. Smart boards that were rolled out across schools and universities have not been utilised in the way they were expected to be utilised. The idea of bringing iPods in to elementary schools hasn't really flourished in the way that we expected it to. So I think there are some real risks here. When I hear people talk about reimagining education and e learning revolution, I get worried because I don't think this is an ideal condition in which to bring that about. Something like that requires evidence. It requires a more gradual approach, in my view.

MG: Randy LaBonte what do you make of what Daniel Ansari was saying?

RANDY LABONTE: Well, I would tend to agree, but the argument is technology solves things. It's not. Technology is just another medium by which a good connection happens between a teacher and a student. So the pedagogy, the the instructional, the learning situation is critical. Does technology expand our palette of options as teachers and educators? Absolutel,y it does. Can we use technology effectively? Well, if we think that technology is going to solve a connection or a problem, it isn't. And that's the issue about smartboards and iPad. It's about technology that's going to revolutionize. No. Teachers and how we utilize some of the tools and the resources that it's change. And all of the research that's been compiled over the many, many years say that definitely teachers and the structure about how you create learning is what's different. What I was hearing with Caroline and Kimiko is focus on the individual, focus on their passions and their interests, get them involved and pursuing what they're interested in and that is what will turn effective learning.

MG: But in the last 90 seconds that we have or so, I mean, take a look at what's going to happen, not now, but in September or October or January of next year. What do we need to be thinking about to get this right? Because school come the fall is not going to be school, as we remember it from six months ago.

RANDY LABONTE: We have to abandon some of our assumptions about the one room schoolhouse. We have to start thinking about the expansion of digital technologies and digital learning spaces. But what's the critical piece is how do we prepare teachers? Because in this emergency, they have done a creative and effective job reaching out. But imagine what would happen if we actually prepared, teachers were trained, they knew how to leverage different, different technologies and learning spaces and they planned for this.

MG: But are you going to be able to have that connection if in September, kids, you're going back on a staggered schedule and they're there a week on or a week off or what have you and there are still some e-learning. Will you have that connection that, as you say, is so important?

RANDY LABONTE: I think it can be done. I honestly believe that, and I believe in the value in the equity. The teachers themselves, I think are going to make the difference. I think it's possible, but it takes some planning and it takes some patience and it's going to take time in order to build this out and be much more effective. But I think technology can help us in this situation. Technology can bridge distances.

MG: Randy, good to hear from you on this. We're going to turn it over to to parents and students. In the meantime,r thank you.

RANDY LABONTE: Thank you.

MG: Randy LaBonte is the CEO of the Canadian eLearning Network. He was in Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia. We'd love to hear from you. What has your experience been like with this new world of education where a couple of months into this now and are you like Caroline and Kimiko, who have essentially said, you know what, the school of life perhaps is more important than trying to fight with our kids about how to make this work? Or have you been able to make it work? We love to hear from you. And what is the place of e-learning in the future of how kids learn? You can reach us through Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, on Facebook or through the contact link on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Your experiences with this new world of education, please. Well, the CBC News is next. Then a conversation with the former minister of health, Dr. Jane Philpott. She now finds herself on the frontlines of this pandemic. We'll hear why she stepped up, coming up on The Current.

[Music]

Jane Philpott on what she’s learned on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic

Guests: Jane Philpott, Colleen Flood

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, helping countries get personal protective equipment in the midst of a crisis, a view from the inside. Coming up in 30 minutes. But first, she's moved from the policy side back to the front lines, former health minister Dr. Jane Philpott.

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MG: You know that many Canadians are finding ways to help in this pandemic. Among them, health care workers who retired or stepped away from the profession. These former doctors and nurses are putting on the scrubs again, offering their services to hospitals and care homes. Dr. Jane Philpott is Canada's former Minister of Health and she's also helping out in a group home right now. Dr. Jane Philpott, good morning.

JANE PHILPOTT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You have been working at a place called Participation House. It's in Markham, Ontario. It's a home for adults with severe disabilities. How did you end up working there? This started with with a phone call?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, it actually started with a text, Matt. I had been helping out at the COVID Assessment Centre at Markham Stoufville Hospital in late March. And it turned out that Easter Sunday morning very early. I got a text from a friend whose daughter is a resident at Participation House, and she said, can you help? Things are desperate. The executive director is looking for someone that can come and help. And I quickly made my way down there and discovered that things were very serious. There are 42 residents at Participation House and 40 of them had been infected with COVID.

MG: Tell me what that was like in that moment that you arrived and you sort of assessed what's in front of you?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think one of the most serious challenges that we faced early on was the fact that, as you indicated, the people who live in participation house at this site have have quite significant physical, developmental and intellectual disabilities. Only four out of the forty two are able to walk on their own. They all require some help being fed and bathed and having all of their care, personal care needs taken care of. And they normally have a staff of a total of about 100 people and they were down to less than 10, including the management of the facility. And it was people felt panicked about how they were going to possibly take care of these people in their basic care needs, let alone the fact that so many of them were sick with COVID infection.

MG: Why did you respond to the text in that way? I mean, you could have said this is a serious situation, let me see what I can do. But then instead you jump in the car and head down there. Why?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think, Matt, you indicated in your introduction that we all want to be able to help. Everyone is is so upset about what has happened and how this this virus has taken over our society and caused so much suffering and death. And I didn't think twice. Of course, this was a situation where if I could be helpful, I wanted to get down there as quickly as I could. You know, I have come to know the residents who live there now and the staff, and they are now very dear to me. But I could only imagine the situation and I had to figure out if there was something I could do.

MG: Would you have ever expected to find yourself jumping back into the fray, being on the front lines at this stage in your career?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, not really. You know, life takes a lot of surprising turns. And after politics, I have agreed to take on a really wonderful job at Queen's University to be their next dean of health sciences. But with all that's happened this spring, I ended up having some time on my hands. And like everyone else, I wanted to be able to be helpful. This is not something I would have expected to do, but it's changed me and I am. You know, we have gone through some terrible grief. Unfortunately, six of the 40 residents died. It was a horrible experience in that way. But in terms of understanding more what the lives of these people and those who care for them are like, it has been an experience that has made me, I hope, a better person.

MG: We are at an unusual and an interesting point in this pandemic, where within long term care homes, there is still a crisis that is unfolding in other parts of our society. We're seeing hints that the curve is beginning to flatten or has been flattened and the move towards starting to try to figure out how to reopen society. You were working at the assessment centre of Markham Stover Hospital, and we haven't seen hospitals thus far being completely overwhelmed in the ways that perhaps people were concerned about. Do you worry that that could change if we don't get this reopening right?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, absolutely. We all have to be worried about that. You know, these care facilities have seen the highest rates of both infections and deaths. And that's in part because of the physical realities of people living in close proximity and the fact that physical distancing, which is one of the most effective tools, has been difficult to do in those places. Of course, there are multiple other reasons as well. But we shouldn't fool ourselves that those are the only places where the infection will spread if we start to ease back without all of the appropriate measures in place. And this is a very dangerous virus. I've seen what it can do to people, people of all ages. You know, the elderly are more susceptible to serious disease, but we've seen young people at very young ages who have not survived the infection. So we need to be absolutely cautious.

MG: As a former minister of health, knowing what you know about what life is like on those front lines, but also how decisions are made in the corridors of power, how would you assess the job that public health officials and governments have done up to this point?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think that given the circumstances that they were dealt. Public officials have overall done a really extraordinary job. I know how incredibly hard everybody has worked. And it's really hard to make those decisions when you don't have all the information available to you at the right time. And lots of us have looked in hindsight and thought it would have been better if decisions had been made differently. But most people don't have the value of that. Blindsight, when they're making the critical decisions, you know, I think that what we've realised through all of this is that we have seriously underfunded and under-supported public health institutions across the country at all levels, all orders of government, and we're paying that price now.

MG: It was a year ago that in Ontario, the Premier Doug Ford, was musing about cutting funding for public health and changing its mandate. In many ways, do you think that leaders will have a different appreciation to your point, for the role of public health coming out of this?

JANE PHILPOTT: Oh, I have no doubt that at least in the foreseeable future that people will pay a great deal attention to public health and we will be stronger as a result of this, but it doesn't take that long for our memories to fade. You know, there were lots of recommendations that came out of various commissions related to SaaS and some of those were implemented. But after a while, people forget what it's like. And so are our job collectively as a society is to to remember and honour those we've lost through this and make sure that we don't ever slack off. In fact, it isn't straw ordinary amount of work that has to happen to actually strengthen, strengthen those public health institutions. They've made good progress in a short period of time, but there's certainly a lot more to be done.

MG: We had a conversation on Friday with three people who know the long term care world very well. And they all said in many ways that what we're seeing right now was not inevitable, that there were things that could have been done to prevent the scale of the catastrophe in long term care homes. Why, you're seeing this up close in many ways, why do you think what we're seeing right now in those long term care facilities is happening?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, there are multiple reasons, of course. I would say, you know, one of the things that I've been really impressed with in a in a negative way is the challenges around staffing. As I said, I don't think things would have been as as terrible in the early days that participation has if they had had a full complement of staff. And I don't want to put the blame on those staff members. The reality was that some of them had to leave because they were showing symptoms. Others had been exposed and needed to isolate. And then there's this whole issue around personal support workers who work in multiple care homes for reasons of financial stability. And they knew then that they couldn't work in multiple places. So this is the workforce in these care facilities is one of the big challenges that has to be addressed so that the people who are we depend upon most. In fact, you know, they needed personal care workers more than they needed doctors. And they certainly need nurses more than they needed almost anything. So getting the right people to work in these homes, paying them properly and supporting them will make a huge difference going forward.

MG: What have we learned about the difference between for profit and not for profit care facilities?

JANE PHILPOTT: I'm not sure that we totally have the answer on that, Matt. It's something that we have to look into in great detail. You might know there was a study that came out last week looking at in particular, I believe the Ontario situation that showed that the number of deaths in for profit homes was significantly higher than those in not for profit. And that has to be taken very seriously. And it's it's not hard to imagine why that part of the challenge. If people are trying to make a profit off these facilities, they're going to skimp on staffing. Perhaps that should not probably be a blanket statement, but there are maybe cutbacks which will be detrimental to those that they're caring for. So I think that needs to be looked at. I don't know that it's as simple as that. I think there are a number of other issues around making sure that there are proper regulations for these facilities, that they have a reportable metrics in terms of the quality of care that's being provided. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done and it actually can't wait until this is over. We have this pandemic amongst us for the foreseeable future. I would say that that work needs to be underway immediately.

MG: What does that look like? We keep using this phrase wreck that there's been a reckoning that that that this will all become out of this lead us to think differently, not just about how these facilities work, but how we care as a society for our elders. So what does that change start to look like now do you think?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I think the spotlight that's been shone on these kinds of care homes is really important and even understanding why people need to be there in the first place. And I know this has been incredibly hard for families. You know, yesterday was Mother's Day, and I just kept thinking about all the people that couldn't see their mother because their mother was living in a in a Long-Term Care Facility. And the rules that are around that and families feel guilt related to the fact that they couldn't care for their family members at home. So that reckoning has to include making sure that, of course, we get the very best quality care in facilities like this where people need to to be in a care home, but also supporting families at home so that perhaps they can have the privilege of keeping their family members with them, which is very hard to do in the context where our home care operations in this country aren't what they ought to be.

MG: There are many people, among them, Jagmeet Singh leader of the NDP, who are saying that long term care announced needs to be universally insured, that we need to open the Canada Health Act and make this part of Medicare. Is that the right approach?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, in part it is. I'm a big fan of making sure that this is seen as part of our universal publicly funded care. I'm not so sure it's within the Canada Health Act. I think those are some of the details that can be sorted out. It may, you're hearing others who are talking about a distinct federal act that looks at long term residential care. But this is an area where the federal government does have an opportunity to take leadership to set national standards.

MG: What would that look like? Because I spoke with John Horgan, the premier of British Columbia, and he was very definitive, saying this is a provincial responsibility. We do not need further oversight from the federal government that this is something the provinces need to handle. So what would that greater role for the federal government be?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, if we are going to be a country that we need to have something that we agree to as a country in some kind of national standards that we agree have to be met. The reason that the provinces are hesitant, of course, is in part the fact that they haven't been funded for this. And so this is an area where if there are dollars attached, it's a. Federal government uses the authorities that that reside in them through their spending power. Then they can set standards and can require that those standards be met in order for that funding to continue. And it's a great opportunity for national leadership.

MG: I ask you this as a former politician, recovering politician, perhaps you know future politician, I have no idea. But politically, how do you manage that? How do you thread that needle knowing that the prime minister needs to be careful not to be seen, to be stepping on toes, but at the same time, there is a national interest here?

JANE PHILPOTT: Absolutely. And you know, Matt, I think when this current government was established, people looked back to previous minority government and the great things that were accomplished. And of course, one of my favourites was the Pearson government. He he led to minority government and put through a great national programs like our Canada Pension Plan. It may be that this, in fact, is the time for a Canada long term care plan or a Canada seniors plan that has that kind of support, where people are going to work together at the federal level to be able to say we're spending a lot of money on a lot of different initiatives if we value our elders, as I believe that we all do. And one of those areas where we need to be making investments to do better is in the area of how we care for for the elderly amongst us.

MG: What will it take for it to happen and not to backslide? As you say, people make promises, reports come out and in the midst of a crisis, we see what's in front of us. In the months or years ahead, priorities can change.

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, as I said, the sad reality is that this is not going away quickly. Kolbert is here for the foreseeable future. And that and it's going to continue to very sadly cause the demise of the people we love, our grandmas and grandpas. And that kind of pressure needs to force everyone to work together to get on the same page. This is not the time for partisanship. This is not the time for federal provincial bickering. This is the time to be able to say what will we do together to make sure that something like this never happens, happens again. And the people that we love get the best care possible.

MG: You've seen some really difficult things over the last little while. And just before I let you go, what is is keeping you optimistic in this moment?

JANE PHILPOTT: Well, I would say it's the people that I've met at Participation House. I just imagine right now the smiles on their faces. The ones who have gotten better and even in the midst of the worst days, the way that they would be able to find a way to smile through it all. And when their fever's got better and their breathing got better, how they would look at me and say, thank you. It's for people like that, that those of us who who serve keep goin. And they mean a lot to me.

MG: Thanks for doing what you're doing, and it's good to talk to you.

JANE PHILPOTT: Nice to talk to you, Matt. Have a great day.

MG: Dr. Jane Philpott is the former federal Minister of Health and the dean designate of the Faculty of Health Sciences at Queen's University. She has been working for the last little while at long term care home called Participation House. It's in Markham, Ontario. It's a home for adults with severe disabilities. About 80 percent of Canada's COVID-19 deaths, as we were saying, are linked to long term care. There's a lot of talk about change. What would that change look like? Colleen Flood is director of the University of Ottawa Centre for Health Law, Policy and Ethics. Colleen, good morning to you.

COLLEEN FLOOD: Hi Matt. Good morning.

MG: Why has it taken something as catastrophic as covered 19 to lead us to this discussion about the state of these long term care facilities?

COLLEEN FLOOD: Well, I think we've sort of wanted to bury our head in the sand about the need for investments in long term care. It's a variety of things kind of happened in a long term case sitting. You have very frail elderly people and you know, sometimes we have discrimination or fear about growing older. A lot of the people there are women in very late part of their lives. And a lot of the people that are in Long-Term Care Homes also live with dementia and Alzheimer's. So you also have this fear of, you know, mental health decline. So I think there are a bunch of things that kind of come together that make us want to as collectively not really think about it. And covered 19 is, you know, just laid bare all of the problems that I think we've known for a very long time have been present in Long-Term Care Institutions, but have not really wanted to act upon for a variety of reasons.

MG: One of those issues, as Jane Philpott was mentioning, is in some ways the outsourcing of that care and the mix of privately funded versus publicly funded long term care, for profit and not for profit. What does that mix leave us with?

COLLEEN FLOOD: Well, the mix really varies across the country. But generally in long term care and health care, we would say in places or settings where it's really difficult to measure quality and that would be in the case of the frail elderly. You know, they're not exactly savvy consumers out buying, you know, posh shoes or something like that. We're talking about very sensitive provision of health care. They're not able to really shop around, etc. We usually try to focus on having high quality inputs. And by that I mean high quality labour with ethical codes and so forth to make sure that people are looked after properly. And so it's Dr. Philpott mentioned the risk with for profit is that they may have an incentive to skin on skimp on the quality of care, particularly the amount of investment made into labour. Now, you can attend to this somewhat through regulation, but the trouble is, I think we have pretty half hearted regulation, at least in Ontario in that respect. So the law in Ontario says that long term care home only has to have one registered nurse and it doesn't matter the size of the home to give you very significant numbers of people. But the law and he says you only have to have one registered nurse. And I think that's kind of laissez faire regulation is inadequate. We need to do much better on this across the country.

MG: Is the answer than, as we were saying with Dr. Philpott, to bring this under the Canada Health Act? That you make this part of the health care system that we champion, that we celebrate in this country?

COLLEEN FLOOD: Well, in a way, I agree with her that we need, I think we need federal, we need the provinces are finding it hard to sustain the health care system that we do have. So the Medicare, health care expenditures and four provinces are coming up to nearly 50 percent of everything that they spend. And so you can understand their reluctance to expand universal health care into any domain, be it prescription drugs or long term care. They say, look, we just don't have the dollars. So they need the assistance, I think, of the federal government. The federal dollars to help make this a reality. On the other hand, I don't think it's a simple slam dunk into that Canada Health Act. I think it does need to be a different vehicle. And we do need to realise that we're talking about massive investment of dollars and we have to figure out how to that. So some of my colleagues and I, under c.h.i.p funded grant money, Jean McDonald and Michael Wilson are predicting that just to stand still. So to keep the same level of quality and the same level of access, given the numbers of people are aging, that we're going to need to increase our public expenditures by three fold by 2050. So just stay where we are threefold by 2050. So that's you know, this is a big deal and we're with an aging population and fewer people working. We can't just assume, I think, that it's going to be readily supported by tax funded dollars.

MG: Would it also, just briefly, one of the concerns is also that this could increase wait times? That if you have a universal system, the extremely long waitlists could get even longer. Is that a concern?

COLLEEN FLOOD: Well, we have very long wait times with, you know, the sort of two tier model that we have with people who are wealthy, perhaps been going to privately financed retirement homes or otherwise looking after their own selves. So, you know, I think this idea that having a two tier system here would reduce wait times doesn't seem to be borne out at all. So, you know, the amount of investments that we make here will dictate how much people are left to have to fend for themselves. I can imagine a situation where we would prevent people buying their own long term care if the public system was unable to deliver. I don't think it has the same dynamics as physician services, hospital services. So I think we we we need to find creative ways to fund this. So at the end of our lives, not everyone is going to need long term care, 24/7 care in a nursing home as a small percentage of us, and most the rest of us will age gradually in place. But some of us are going to need very intensive care and we don't know who that will be. So it is an insurable risk. It is something that we shouldn't actually save for now in anticipation that it might happen to us, because that would be really inefficient. So if you started saving now for the fact that you might need 24/7 care when you're 85, you'll be having to store away a lot of your wealth, which wouldn't be good for the economy. And you may not need that care. You probably won't need that care. Some of us will. And some of us won't. So it is a good idea for us to publicly insure this in some way. But on the other hand, you know, it doesn't seem really quite fair to burden younger generations with all of the costs of this for an older generation that hasn't contributed to it in the same way. So I think we need to get creative about how we fund it, not to put the burden on individuals who need that 24/7 care, but perhaps to think about some ways that the baby boomers essentially will pay a greater burden as as a collective than perhaps younger generation, because I just can't see it being sustainable when we're talking about having to increase public expenditures by three fold by 2050 just to stay where we are, which we all agree is just inadequate right now.

MG: It feels like this is going to be we talk a lot about how we'll come out of this and what will be different, but it really does feel like this will be one of those things that changes at some degree when we emerge from this pandemic. Colleen Flood, good to speak with you. Thank you.

COLLEEN FLOOD: Thank you, Matt. Have a great day.

MG: And you. Colleen Flood is director of the University of Ottawa Centre for Health Law, Policy and Ethics. dAny thoughts on this? We'd love to hear from you. You can reach us through the website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Music]

Inside the rush for PPE

Guests: Chris Kutarna

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Securing crucial medical supplies as you know, has been a huge challenge in this pandemic. There is a global demand for tests and protective gear and getting them involves sourcing signatures and a lot of red tape. My next guest was working behind the scenes helping countries get these supplies. And what he saw has profound implications for governments and organizations in this time of rapid change. Chris Kutarna is the author of The Age of Discovery. He's a Canadian. He's a fellow at Oxford University and he is in London. Chris Kutarna, good morning.

CHRIS KUTARNA: Good morning, Matt. It's nice to come back home for a bit, even if it's virtual.

MG: Great to have you back here. You started getting calls from governments and manufacturers trying to source or sell medical equipment to respond to COVID-19. When did those calls start to begin?

CHRIS KUTARNA: For me, my involvement in all this really goes back to, I guess, January, early February. I mean, I'm a I'm I'm a big picture guy. And China is a big part of the big picture. So I've been I've been kind of working around China for the past 15 years. I I lived in Beijing. I I did business there. I did my p._h._d in Chinese politics. And so for me, this crisis, we're living through it. It actually really began back sort of over the Christmas holidays. You know, friends back in Beijing and Shanghai were in lockdown or stuck outside of the country or unemployed or so busy. They had no time to talk. And by February, kind of became clear that this was going global.

Why? Why were people calling you looking for these supplies?

So there I think in February and March and and even into April. Trust was the most valuable commodity on the planet. You know, you had you had governments and health authorities across the Americas, Europe, Africa, who who suddenly needed to dramatically increase just the bandwidth of the supply chains for for medical equipment. And so you needed to trust more people, but you knew you couldn't trust everyone. And so I think that a whole flurry of, you know, ad hoc supply chains kind of sprang into existence as people just called, who they thought might be able to help. Now, you know, I'm a political scientist at Oxford. I do a lot of work with people in positions of political leadership and kind of bureaucratic authority. And most of them know that I spent 15 years in China. So I think I was a natural kind of person on that list to reach out to. And he already was kind of happened on the same side from the China perspective. You had manufacturers who, you know, the world was calling them and saying that they represented the NHS or that they were, you know, representing some big U.S. state and they didn't know who to trust either.

MG: Tell me a little bit about how difficult this was. One of the things we keep hearing is that there is a global competition for these pieces of equipment, whether it's tests now or personal protective equipment, masks, gloves, shields. Why was it so difficult for people to get a hold of this equipment?

CHRIS KUTARNA: That's a good question. I suppose the fundamental reality was that demand exceeded supply. Right? And I think. I think demand still exceeds supply. So they're there. There wasn't enough for everyone. And and that meant it was kind of always going to be difficult. I think the other reality is that, you know, kind of this this distrust equation. So doing business in China, you know, can be difficult at the best of times. You know, in a time like now, it was. It was always going to be pretty ugly. You've got a lot of well-intentioned, good faith actors. You've got, you know, honestly, maybe maybe like an overload of good Samaritans like me who who step up and say we can help. And that actually just creates a a challenge of sifting through, you know, who is here to genuinely help, you know, who is here as a bad faith actor that is just springing into to take advantage of the opportunity. And I mean, it created absurdities.

MG: Like what?

CHRIS KUTARNA: Well, I mean, I had, you know, one of the largest sort of medical glove manufacturers in the world who, you know, has been supplying medical equipment to the Americas and Europe for 10, 20 years, having to having to prove that it exists to procurement officers who, you know, this is an unfamiliar marketplace to them. And and so you had and no and no one was quite sure, especially in kind of the March Madness for PPE. No one was quite sure how to cross that trust barrier. So, you know, I had manufacturers handing me highly confidential documents, the sort of documents that anybody who understands how to do a kind of a registry check with the Chinese government could be able to verify that, you know, this is a legitimate manufacturer. You know, reluctantly handing me these documents and then procurement officers saying, like, we don't know what to do with these documents. Can you send us a photograph of the of the production in the factory? And so you go back to the manufacturers and they send these photographs back. But along with it, they they send a a bemused note saying, you know, it would be so easy for us to afford these photographs if that's really what, if that's really what it took.

MG: What was it like for you? I mean, did you have any because you're in the midst of a crisis and people need this. This is a life and death matter and people need this equipment now. They don't need it in weeks or months. Did you have any qualms about the role that you're playing in helping to decide where this equipment goes and where it doesn't go?

CHRIS KUTARNA: I still do. And honestly, I mean, if I think of at that kind of just deep personal level, I think that, you know, especially in February and in March when, you know, here I am locked down in London. So it's happening around me. But also for, you know, my family back home in Saskatchewan and we all just want to help somehow. And and this was a way to to feel like I was helping. But it's it's true that, you know, influencing successfully or not where scarce medical supply would go. I'd I don't know the full implications of that. I don't have the complete picture. I don't know who was denied the lifesaving equipment they need because I helped others who needed it to get it.

MG: How does that work? I mean, is it that we were hearing, you know, that certain countries perhaps could move quicker because of size or scale? Is it who shouts the loudest and who shouts first that gets the equipment?

CHRIS KUTARNA: That was part of it that I think that explains part of the story. And you and probably when the kind of retrospective on the PPE wars is, I think about them is is is written, you know, part of the story is going to be that, you know, the well-off were relatively well protected and the vulnerable became more vulnerable because, you know, in a situation where where there's not enough supply to go around, those who can pay the most tended to be successful. But, you know, it was interesting is that in the fog of the war of this, that wasn't always the case. I remember working with, you know, well, they're one of the 10 largest economies in the world on a on a transaction for ventilators, a large number of ventilators, not a giant transaction in the in the scheme of everything that was happening in in February and March. But Chinese manufacturers at that time, they were demanding cash on the barrel. Right. So you you want these. You want the supply. You going to sign a contract now? And we expect the cash in our account within 24 hours. And, you know, most governments, they they can't buy things with cash. And there are there are well-established reasons why they can't they buy on credit. You know, the department that pays for things is way over there called Treasury. And so, you know, I had this absurd situation where, you know, literally had this giant economy calling the central bank, asking for help, proving their cash balance in order to complete this this this transaction. So that was another piece of the story, I think is just that, you know, we we live we have, you know, very, very well thought out permission structures, you know, particularly in government for, you know, what do I need others permission to do? What can I give myself permission to do? And sometimes when when the context changes soda from normal to crisis, those permission structures just kind of get in the way of doing common sense things.

MG: What did you learn about you talked about sort of bad actors and people who might be in this to try and, you know, it's a crisis. You can make a lot of money in a crisis. We saw, you know, shipments of masks arriving in the city of Toronto that were bought and distributed and they turned out to be faulty. And all those masks need to be recalled again in a moment of crisis. Why were things like that happening?

CHRIS KUTARNA: I don't know the full answer to that. I think partly it goes back to this question of who do you trust in a crisis, knowing that you need to trust more people. But you can't trust everyone. And and so I think your choices get made about we're going to trust those people or not. You know, what are the things that that I observed was. And it it all you know, in hindsight, it all sort of makes sense is that you had a lot of people, you know, in essence, coming to China to do business for the first time and are understanding that, you know, there there are some pretty some pretty quick things that, you know, certainly any government should should be doing before it places a large order for, you know, testing kits, you know, masks, other other other people. You like things like what? Well, things like, you know, calling up the Chinese Centres for Disease Control that have been operating in hand and Beijing and say, like, do you trust these manufacturers? Who are the manufacturers that you relied upon at the height of your crisis? You know, asking the manufacturers who are the domestic hospitals in China that you serve and contacting those hospitals and verifying that, you know, this manufacturer has actually been a kind of supplier in good stead.

MG: Are those steps possible? You talk about permission, culture. Are those steps possible if you're trying to streamline the process in the midst of a pandemic? I mean, it seems like you're trying to do both things at the same time in many ways, make things move quickly, but also ensure that you're not open to getting faulty masks or opening the door to further corruption.

CHRIS KUTARNA: And I think there I mean, that's a great example, Matt, of the kind of almost I don't post-mortems is definitely the wrong phrase to use, but the kind of, you know, retrospective thinking we're going to have to be doing. Everyone who is involved in in the madness on on, you know, what what was the right sort of way to go about making decisions? Because, I mean, on the one hand, there is this approach that basically says that something is better than nothing. And and if that's the if that's the choice that you face, then, you know, go ahead, go for it. I think the other the other thing we'll have to think about is, you know, in a time of crisis. You know, maybe, maybe making some bad decisions. We shouldn't get too upset about that. You know, it should be about maximizing the number of good decisions that get made, you know, enabling people to just act with a lot of latitude on on good principle. But, you know, that involves a wider public conversation about our we are we're going to be comfortable with with the mistakes that were made. For my part, I took a pretty conservative approach. I mean, I was working with a team of very senior people on on the China side, like sort of, you know, former CEO of a Wall Street firm. You know, former V.P. of a big global bank. You know, a former legal counsel for one of the big state owned enterprises. And we we sort of put together our own due diligence process and put together a limited catalogue of, you know, PPE and tests from from China's suppliers that met that process. And we just added our little contribution to the big problem is going to be to help to move that stuff to to where it could do good. But, you know, if if your if your whole attitude to this was just, you know, how can we, you know, make the most money or create the most viable business, then that then that limited approach isn't, you know, isn't the right choice you make I think.

MG: So before I let you go, we just have about a minute or so left. You talked with the PPE wars in February and March. What has that taught you abou About the global supply chain and how nimble we need to be in that supply chain in a moment of crisis?

CHRIS KUTARNA: Well, I guess my preface to that would be that some of my best friends are bureaucrats. And so, you know, when we when we look back on the lessons from this, I think that, you know, there there were real failures in February and March. You know, people died who didn't need to die because we we couldn't make decisions fast enough. But I think that this is a collective failure. It's not a bureaucratic failure. I mean, you know, an ordinary time when when when the bureaucracy performs perfectly, the rest of us sort of say to it like, yeah, you know, that's your job. And when they whenever they get it wrong, they are breaking the public trust or they are wasting taxpayers money. So so we asked for a bureaucracy that really focuses on on on minimising the number of wrong decisions. And so I think the question becomes, because this isn't the last crisis that is going to be the next one. And so I think the question becomes are what is our permission structure in a time of crisis? You know, what are some of the broad principles that we allow people to just make decisions under going to be. And then we got to get our stakeholders ready for that. You know, we've got to get citizens and auditors ready for that. We've got to get boards and shareholders ready for that, because when the next crisis comes, we are going to want to respond differently.

MG: Chris, it's good to speak with you about this. What an experience you've had. Thank you.

CHRIS KUTARNA: Thanks very much, Matt.

MG: Chris Kutarna is the author of The Age of Discovery: Navigating the Storms of Our Second Renaissance.

[Music]

Tom Power in conversation with Daniel Brooks

Guests: Tom Power, Daniel Brooks

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway, joined now by noted long distance runner Tom Power, host of Q.

TOM POWER: Give it up. Give it up. Matt Galloway how are you?

MG: Mr. 5K. Well done. Congratulations.

TOM POWER: Oh my God. I know I had to text you over the weekend. I mean, I should say if you're listening to this, I came into Matt, I think it was right at the beginning of the pandemic and I sat in The Current studio and I said, I think I'm going to start this running thing. And you were so encouraging and you were so wonderful. And yeah as of yesterday, I'm a 5K runner, Matt.

MG: Fantastic.

TOM POWER: So now I'm just gonna give it up for a couple of months.

MG: The couch is waiting.

TOM POWER: Yeah, of course, I'm doing a 5k back to couch.

MG: Excellent. You are here to talk about Mr. Daniel Brooks.

TOM POWER: I am. I am so excited to tell you about this. This is an interview that I thought was gonna kind of, I don't know, I thought was gonna be kind of meaningful. And then it ended up being so much more than I have ever could have believed. I mean, we were sort of like mouth agape sitting in our studio listening to Daniel speak. Daniel is legendary Canadian theatre director. He was supposed to be directing a run of Chekhov's The Seagull right now. That's, of course, on hold. Daniel Brooks is really thoughtful about what that means for him and what the pandemic means for him part in because he has Stage 4 cancer. So we got to talk about what he's learned about uncertainty that we can apply to our lives. Here's our conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

[Tom Power's conversation with Daniel Brooks]

MG: Tom Power in conversation with the great theatre director, Daniel Brooks. The CBC News is next. And then the allegations against Joe Biden. How Democrats are responding to those allegations of sexual assault and whether those allegations will affect his bid for the White House. We'll discuss in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music]

Tara Reade allegations are causing a crisis of conscience for Democrats says strategist

Guests: Camille Rivera, Rose Kapolczynski

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Coming up, doggos, puffers, the hound, whatever you want to call them. Quarantine is bringing us closer to our canine friends. How will they react when their human is out of the house again? That story in half an hour. But first, Joe Biden and his MeToo movement.

[Music: Theme]

MG: It started almost immediately after the last election. The search for a Democratic challenger to take on Donald Trump. After a hard-fought primary, Joe Biden is the presumptive nominee, but now serious allegations are dividing his party and they come from a former aide named Tara Reade. Tara Reade worked for Joe Biden 27 years ago, and that is when she alleges he sexually assaulted her. Tara Reade is now urging Joe Biden to quit the race for president.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: You and I were there, Joe Biden. Please step forward and be held accountable. You should not be running on character for the president, the United States.

MG: That's Tara Reade speaking with journalist Megyn Kelly. Joe Biden has strongly denied the allegations. And while many prominent Democrats say they believe him, others are struggling with whether they can support him now and worried about what his candidacy means for the MeToo movement. Joining me now, two women who have been wrestling with those questions. Camille Rivera is a Democratic strategist and partner at New Deal Strategies in New York City. And Rose Kapolcynski is also a Democratic strategist who has worked in politics for more than 30 years. She is in Lopez Island in Washington state. Good morning to you both.

Good morning.

CAMILLE RIVERA: Good morning.

MG: Camille Rivera, we'll start with you. What did you think when you first heard Tara Reade's allegations against Joe Biden?

CAMILLE RIVERA: I mean, I think my, I think I had a very, you know, a normal feeling for most women who have struggled and have gone through this. Right? You know, sinking feeling of here we go again in a situation where there is going to be an immense amount of attention towards this campaign that is going to be tainted with allegations of a woman who, you know, probably took years and years and years to be able to come forward. And so as a Democratic strategist and as a person who cruet who wants Trump to be voted out of office because of all the horrible situations that we are living in right now is extremely difficult, perplexing situation, and particularly a woman like myself who has gone through sexual harassment. So, you know, the fact that this woman is going to be out there putting her story out there in this in this environment with our presumptive Democratic nominee is a crisis of conscience for many people, including the Democratic Party.

MG: Rose Kapolczynski, did you have that sinking feeling when you heard of the allegations?

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: Well, you never want a piece of negative information about your candidate out there just when you're trying to consolidate Democratic support after a long and bitter primary season. Joe Biden hasn't had the chance to consolidate that support yet, partly because of the pandemic. But it's also early and many, many people supported someone else in the primary. And it will take a while for them to accept and rally around Joe Biden as the nominee.

MG: How do you think he's addressed this? Initially he didn't say anything and then came out and did an interview in which he denied that it ever happened. Rose, how do you think Joe Biden has handled this?

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: I think he's handled it just fine. When you have a situation like this, you want to address it forcefully, but you also need to know all the information. And I'm sure that they went to the staff at that time and and other people who might have knowledge of the situation to to see what they could discover about things like a Senate complaint that she says she filed and and other things. But he completely denied it. And this is a very serious charge, sexual assault. It's not simply harassment, which of course, is very serious, but assault is a very serious crime and and so I think he had to take some time to figure out the right way to address it.

MG: Camille Rivera, how do you think Joe Biden has handled this?

CAMILLE RIVERA: I mean I didn't love the silence in the beginning. I thought he should have immediately addressed it. I do think he is, he should be handling it with enough compassion and understanding, and particularly for the women that are watching him and anyone who has been sexually assaulted. I do believe he was very clear in his denial of it. That being said, I believe that, you know, we are in a very, very tumultuous situation. And the Democrats have to do better. And I don't think it's just about Joe Biden, but I think women in general and Democrats have to do better and understanding that if we're going to be supporters of the meta movement and believe women, then we have to give Tara the space to be able to voice what you know, what happened to her.

MG: Tell me more about that. Because people have said, commentators some have said that this is a moment of selective support for MeToo. That if you believe women, you believe women. And if you believe women who came out with allegations against other prominent politicians, why wouldn't you believe the allegations here? Camille, how do thread that.

CAMILLE RIVERA: I have a real problem with that. Right. I mean, as a Democratic strategist and although a person who, you know, if you, you cannot be selective in a situation like that, I think everything happens within. You know, we have a justice system. We have a space here where things should be looked at and scrutinized. And, you know, the Democratic Party has chosen. And remember, we have a president who has been accused of horrific acts and that we have put out there in saying that he is unfit. And you cannot be selective here. If the idea is to believe women. Then you have to allow her the space and the voice to be able to be out there, whether or not, you know, a Democrat. Democrats are fearful about this. It's not up to them. If this happened, it happened. If it did and it did it. But that's not up to them to decide what they can select and not select.

MG: Rose Kapolczynski, do you worry about that idea of me too, when it's convenient? That's this is that the candidate who could take on presumably will take on Donald Trump has the opportunity to take him out of the White House? That complicates that idea of believing women.

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: Well, I think one of the problems here is the ever changing story. She originally came forward about a year ago when a group of women came forward and said Joe Biden had touched them inappropriately. They were uncomfortable. He didn't respect their personal space and he acknowledged that and you know, pledged to change his behaviour and apologized for that behaviour. And now a year later, it's gone beyond that and it's now assault. So you have to weigh every I believe every woman needs to be heard. And like Camille, I've also been sexually harassed throughout my career and actually worked in the Senate in 1993. And so I understand that kind of behaviour. But every woman needs to be heard, but you also need to make a judgement. Not every story is completely correct.

MG: Do you see? Do you see a difference in terms of how Democrats are treating this versus how Democrats treated the stories during the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh? Rose?

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: Well, I think there was a difference in the in in the stories and the the person telling them. And again, everybody made their judgement about whether Christine Blasey Ford was telling the truth and people are making a judgement about Tara Reade. So I think saying believe any story, no matter what it is, it leads us down a road that's not sustainable. We need every woman to be heard. We need every charge to be investigated.

CAMILLE RIVERA: I mean, I would just add, I mean, I think look, I think, yes, we can't believe every story. But, you know, we are treading a line here that people that the way the way men and people in power use their power before is very different. And there was a there was not a consciousness of what happened. You know, what is what they deem to be okay and what's not. And they were educated by their mentors and their counterparts that this was OK. So while I agree that you can't believe every single story, you can't say you want to be heard. But let's pass out the story to be changed. You actually have to leave it to the experts to be able to decide whether or not the story is accurate or not. And I'm not quite sure that, you know, we as you know, we're serving two masters right now. Right? We need Trump to be out of office. And that is a crisis of consciousness. Do we choose to actually, you know, go down this road and allow this woman to be heard? And at the same time, so was Joe Biden to be president of the United States?

MG: What's sort of personally does that put you in, Camille? Because as you say, you're a Democratic.

CAMILLE RIVERA: I mean, to be quite honest, it puts me and many, many women and many progressive Democrats or any Democrats who have gone through this in a very, you know, tumultuous situation. Right? I mean, like, I know people are like, we can't throw the, you know, the water, the baby with the bathwater or, you know, whatever kind of example you want to use. That being said, he's running for president. He has to be scrutinized. He should be scrutinized. If this is real, then he should be held accountable. If it's not, then, you know, then those are next step there. But, you know, I believe that the most important thing right now is to, you know, what kind of Democratic Party do we want to be? Right. What kind of party do we want to be? Do you want to be the party when it suits us or, you know, because the Republicans know the party that they want to be.

MG: That's the most, just to be clear, that's the most important thing for you? So beating Donald Trump is not the most important thing?

CAMILLE RIVERA: No, I think the most, for me?

MG: Yeah.

CAMILLE RIVERA: The most, well, I mean, I think I will say that it is very important that I have a different idea about what a change is. Yes, it is important for me to beat Donald Trump, but I also think it's extremely important for the Democratic Party to be strong and to be able to create a level of accountability within its own party, to be able to understand that we will have the same problems that the Republican Party is having with their candidates.

MG: You can hear in the tone of your voice, how difficult it is to try and weigh this for you. What about for you Rose? What is the, what's the ultimate goal here? If the ultimate goal is to be Donald Trump, what does that do in terms of influencing the support for Joe Biden in this moment, Rose?

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: If sexual harassment is your most important issue, there's no question you should vote for Joe Biden because Donald Trump has not only harassed dozens of women that we know about, he's bragged about it, he's boasted about it. He has paid off people to keep their silence. So even if this issue is your only issue. There is a clear choice, and that's the thing about our elections. It's Donald Trump or Joe Biden at this point.

MG: But do you understand the dilemma that somone like Camille feels that she's in?

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: Certainly, I've worked for dozens and dozens of candidates and not one of them was perfect. I didn't agree with one of them 100 percent of the time. I tend to be far more liberal than the candidates that I'm working for, even the most liberal of them. And you have to look at the whole package and say, does this person represent the progress that I want to see made in America? And for me, that's Joe Biden. And I don't have any problem casting that vote.

MG: What do you make of the calls? And it's not just coming from from Tara Reade. There's a former senior member of Bernie Sanders campaign calling for Joe Biden to step down in the wake of these allegations. Rose, what do you make of those calls? Camille, go ahead first.

CAMILLE RIVERA: No, I would say there's two things here. One is I don't necessarily agree that, you know, I that the Democratic Party has chosen Joe Biden to be its presidential nominee. That's what it is. Right? And based on that, he should run. That doesn't mean that he should be, you know, that these things should be ignored. And I want to be very clear, this is sexual assault. You have to actually go through the process to understand what actually happened. And I don't think that it's OK for us to brush that under the rug at all. That doesn't mean that he you know, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't run. It doesn't mean that he should be replaced. It just means that there's an allegation here and that we as a general public need to understand that when we want to cast their votes. Right. Yes. There's a choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. I'm not saying that we should not we should go with Donald Trump. You know, I I actually think that Joe Biden has a lot of strong policy policies. And I think that if you have a position that that needs to that you should be voting for Joe Biden. What I am saying is with women in particular, in a situation like this, there is an accountability that the Democratic Party needs to take. And they should be extremely careful. Right. With with understanding that, well, it's OK right now. It's OK. The most important thing is to beat Donald Trump, because that has never worked with Democratic politics. It didn't work. And particularly when you're running against a Republican incumbent, that's running for a second term. We cannot have mordy situations. You have to pass them out, you have to deal with them and then we have to move forward and I think we have to be very careful.

MG: Rose, what do you make of that? Just the call for for the Democratic Party to take this as seriously as Camille is suggesting.

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: I think we should take it seriously. I think people are taking it seriously. But the first allegations from Tara Reade and a number of other women were a year ago and there were we had a big field of candidates. And so voters, Democratic voters had the chance to weigh. The allegations against Biden and chose him nevertheless as the best complete package to take on Donald Trump and win. And so I don't think that the sexual harassment allegations were swept under the rug. They were talked about for a year.

CAMILLE RIVERA: That's not true.I mean, I'm not to push back Rose, but you do know that there was a lot of problems with this coming out story, with The Times not running the story because they had issues with them. I think, you know,

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: I think the assault is the thing here. The assault is the new thing. And I think it should be talked about. I think she should be, have every opportunity to be interviewed and tell her story and I think that's fine. I wouldn't try to hush her up. I happen to think there's inconsistencies in her story that are troubling to me, but. I don't think we should cover it up.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. This is a really insightful look into how the party is grappling with this and how this may unfold in the general election in the next few months. Thank you both.

CAMILLE RIVERA: Thank you.

ROSE KAPOLCZYNSKI: Thank you. Bye.

MG: Camille Rivera is a Democratic strategist and partner at New Deal Strategies. She was in New York City. Rose Kapolczynski is also a Democratic strategist. She was on Lopez Island in Washington State.

Listeners finish Michael Lista’s story

Guests: Shannon Lynch

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. It would appear that many of you were looking for a creative outlet during these pandemic times. We invited you to finish a short story. And when we did that, we had no clue that we would be treated to so many great endings. They were funny, they were poignant, they were nostalgic. They were full of heart and light. And who guessed that so many of you were romantics as well. Thanks to everyone who wrote, we couldn't possibly air them all, but we will over the course of this week, air as many of them as we can before we do that. I'll remind you of what we did. The poet and writer Michael Lista provided the beginning of a story. We asked you to finish the story in a minute or less. Here's Michael Lista starting us off. And then a reading of the ending Shenton by Shannon Lynch.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL LISTA: The girl threw the cup with the string attached to the neighbour boy. She'd made a telephone that was just for them and had a cup of her own that she could talk to the boy through the cup, landed on the boy's bedroom window sill. Their parents had grounded them both, but she could still see him in his blue room with his Mickey Mouse clock on the wall. And she would wave and he would wave back. Sometimes he would dress up as Superman just for himself, and the girl would see him in his blue suit and his red cape and thought that he looked sad and brave. They used to play in the willow tree on their street, swinging from its long, sweet branches and laughing until the street lights would come on and their moms would call them home. The cup landed with a thump. The boy opened his window and put the cup to his ear. The girl pulled the line tight, almost tugging him out onto the laneway. Her voice travelled like a song over the string. I want to tell you something, she said.

SHANNON LYNCH: The boy paused, hoping he'd heard right. You want to tell me something? He pulled the cup tight around his ear. Yeah, she said softly. He could see her smile from the window sill, dimples flashing. The boy felt his heart thump. Does she? He didn't dare let the thought form to completion. He couldn't jinx it. But he hoped, with all his bony frame, 12 year old being that he was right. I'm listening, said the boy. The girl paused, chewing her lip. She breathed in. I like you, she exhaled, and as soon as we're free, I just want to spend the whole day in the willow tree with you like before. Would you want to do that? She bit her thumbnail suddenly nervous. The boy's heart thundered so loud he could barely hear his own frenzied thoughts. He was euphoric. Yeah. Of, of course, said the boy. That's all I ever, yeah. I can't wait. His cheeks hurt from smiling. Great, said the girl. Suddenly she looked over her shoulder, then quickly turned back to the window and put the cup to her mouth. Gotta go. Call you again soon? Talk to you soon, said the boy. Before you go, he whispered into the cup. "I like you too."

MG: That is so great. Shannon Lynch, thank you for that. Your ending to the story. Shannon is a Canadian living in Palermo who says she hopes to be back in Canada as soon as it's possible during this strange time. Who knew what we would get? I had a sense that we would be great, but you never know how great it's going to be until you ask. We'll hear a few more of your stories over the course of this week. We've been taking contributions from listeners when it comes to the ending of the story. Also, songs that are helping get you through this moment. Sue Carpenter-Parnell from Cochrane, Alberta writes, My suggestion for a song to listen to during COVID-19, is Otis Redding's "Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay." Always makes me feel good. It is so relaxing. I couldn't agree more. Here's Otis.

[Song: "Sittin' On the Dock of The Bay"]

MG: Take us home, Otis. We're back in 90 seconds. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. This is when you can whistle along.

[Music]

Pandemic pals: How dogs can help us through the pandemic

Guests: Kath Oltsher, Shelly Volsche

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of woman training her dog]

MG: Maybe you've seen this in your neighbourhood. People encouraging their new dogs, pandemic puppies as they're known. Turns out the global crisis has people longing for canine companionship. A little bit of furry company animal rescue shelters are reporting a surge of interest in new adoptions. For those of us with dogs, people are appreciating them now more than ever. Here are stories of people who feel that special bond.

SOUNDCLIP

[Pet owners talk about their pets]

My name is Vanua from L.A. and my family and myself. We moved to Wakefield back on March 6th, which, as you may recall, was just before the virus totally blew up. And we moved here from Perth, Western Australia. In Australia, we've always had dogs. They're really, really important part about family. And so when we got to Wakefield, one of the first things we did was try and look for a dog. And so we contacted a billion shelties seriously houses a dog now with absolutely no luck. You know the dog abscence. Yeah. It's a bit of a heartache for us. You can just talk to a dog and it will just listen. And, you know, there's no there's no judgement. There's no sort of. Yeah. What are we going to do? There's no conversation. It's just a really therapeutic means of kind of expressing your feelings and having feelings with another living creature, but not necessarily looking for a response. So I think that's the real gap in our lives in terms of the the lack of hound.

Andre D from Toronto and our family has an eleven year old yellow lab pointer mix. We had two dogs until the fall. We also had a 15 year old yellow lab named Bronk who unfortunately passed away due to old age. So now with the lockdown in place, we are hoping to find another power for our family and for Viera. But I was surprised to see that, you know, there's not a lot of availability. Those dogs that are available because of various restrictions, it's a long waiting period if you do qualify to get the dog, because I guess some of them don't want, you know, a lot of people coming from their premises to even visit the dogs at this point for understandable reasons. So, yeah, I've never sort of a quick and easy process to adopt a pet, but it's usually a lot easier witness to at least get your foot in the door.

I'm Amara Hannah. I'm from Burlington, Ontario. And I haven't almost 1 year old Golden Doodle named Arlo. As always, having a dog means so much to me. I had a dog my entire life growing up, and now that I'm living on my own, I have my own dog. And now, more than ever, it means so much to me because he has a sense of normality. It's my life now because being a dog, he's kind of blissfully unaware of the things going on in the world right now that are adding stress to my life. But he carries on his normal. Also, that energy kind of helps me to find a sense of calm and happiness throughout my day as well.

MG: Three voices there about why pets are especially important these days. Kath Oltsher is the co-founder of Zoe's Animal Rescue in Edmonton. Kath, good morning.

KATH OLTSHER: Good morning.

MG: You finding that a lot of people are coming, looking for that sense of normality, as we heard that one dog owner say, and they're showing up at your rescue looking for assistance?

KATH OLTSHER: Yes, actually, we pulled the numbers last year at this time. We had 66 adoptions and this year we've had 116.

MG: That's great news for the dogs.

KATH OLTSHER: The dogs and cats, just to give them a really quick plug, because I understand people love dogs, but we also have the cats and they're really helpful too. But yes, it is. It's very good news for them in some ways in some ways and sine wats it's not because suddenly people who would normally say to us, oh, yeah, you could have these puppies or this dog and we will let you fix the mama are saying, oh, we could make some money off of these. And it's like, no, no, don't do that.

MG: How do you run a shelter, a rescue in the midst of a pandemic?

KATH OLTSHER: Well, we have gone very high tech for us. Normally we did a lot of our work on social media is, of course, to get the word out and stuff. But now we actually take our fairly intense process of we we do home checks. We do we follow up on reference check and we also do interviews. And we basically scrambled and went straight to doing it mostly through video chatting. Now we actually do home checks to video chatting. People will walk us through their houses and show us their yards and their areas. We even do some of our meet and greets online. Now, that's usually for cat because cats are difficult. Get dogs, you can go. All right. We're going to meet in a nice big fenced yard. We're going to do this and we can do a couple of times of that. And lots of social distancing. Lots of careful interactions. But with camp is a bit more difficult. But we are doing a lot of our stuff now online. Skype, FaceTime, if it's there, we use it.

MG: If people are thinking about adopting a dog during this time, what do you want people to know?

KATH OLTSHER: One of the most important things is unfortunately right now it's recession time. And that means that your money is a lot less than it might have used to been. We know that we see that with donations coming in. So we're being very clear about can you afford a dog or a cat and a financial difficulty. It's not just feeding the animal. It's not just buying a leash. This is you can go from, oh, my dog got into my fridge. Oh, you made an entire chicken like bones and all. Oh. We're now spending twenty eight hundred dollars to try and save that dog from all the bones and stuff like that and that can happen in the blink of an eye.

MG: Do you worry that. I mean, we're in this moment and people are looking for companionship and that sense of normality and they get, you know, the dog gets you out for a walk and you have somebody there who is blissfully unaware of this weird dystopian reality that we're living in right now. At some point in time, we'll get out of this and people are going to have to go presumably, if the jobs are still there back to work, that you'll see an uptick in requests to return their dogs when people have less time on their hands.

KATH OLTSHER: We're bracing for it. Not necessarily returns because again, you know, you often hear about rescues. Who are you know, like people say, they're ridiculous. They they they want only this and only that. We're perfectly good home, but we work really hard and have for the last eight years to place animals so that we have an incredibly low return rate. Our return rate is 3 percent, which is unheard of. It's it's wild, but that's because we're actually in honestly treating it like a dating thing where it's like, do you want to be stuck in an elevator with this guy? Would you want this guy to be here with you when you're sick? You know, I mean, so we're trying very hard to make that a bond, a partnership that works. And but what we're worried about is the people who will say to us afterwards, oh, well, we did get this dog, but now we don't have time or we got this puppy, it was really cute and now it's got behavioural issues or I went back to work and my dog is tearing apart the house and howling and barking.

MG: And so what do you say to people about the commitment that's required?

KATH OLTSHER: We actually are trying to talk about it. What we do is, is within our own rescue, it's easy because anybody who adopts from us, we're like, OK. Here's what you get to learn. Here's what you get to do. Here's what you to sign up for. We can do a lot of that education. And what I'm actually trying to do now is and people think I'm bizarre, but I'll say, OK, when you're home with your dog, don't let them follow you into the bathroom, close the door. And they're like, this is weird. Why are we talking about this? I'm like, no, seriously. It's easy. It's easy. You have an adoring animal follow you everywhere. Start shutting a door. It's easy to not to go. Okay. I'm going out front for a little while. I'll put the dog on a leash. Take him out. No. Leave him inside for a little while. Practice. Even if you're in lockdown, practise leaving them alone for a little while at a time. Because that has to get. Heat used to that again. That's gonna be really hard on them. They're going to go from, wow, everything is wonderful to I have been abandoned and I don't know why. So I shall eat your door.

MG: My dog, bless him. I mean, he has no clue what's going on. And I mean, that's the best part in some ways. You have dogs?

KATH OLTSHER: Oh I have dogs, yes.

MG: How have they helped? You laughed when I said that. How have they helped you during this pandemic?

KATH OLTSHER: I have PTSD and I have anxiety anyway, which makes living, you know, interesting. I do find out my success successful, what I do. But there is something very, very wonderful about if you're feeling really down and we're just not sure what to do or are you feeling overwhelmed? And then suddenly this big head drops into your lap and you're like, oh, yeah. And your heart rate goes down a little bit. And there's a lot of simple things I can do to help an animal. I can't help people as easily because people are much more complex that way in some ways, you know? OK. This dog has this issue. We can help it. OK, I can help with this training. So having them gives me. And it's also a way of getting into other people's lives that they wouldn't normally have. More people will talk to me because I know about animals and I'm willing to help them with their animal so I can suddenly find somebody who I'm learning more. Oh, you need groceries? Oh, well, if you need to feed the dog, of course we can drop off some groceries. It gives me a purpose. It makes me able to take care of other people. And that is really distracting for me. And it also gives me a lot of emotional support.

MG: Kath, take care of yourself and it's great to talk to you.

KATH OLTSHER: Thank you so much.

MG: Cathy Oltsher is the co-founder of Zoe's Animal Rescue in Edmonton. Shelly Volsche studies the relationship between animals and humans. And right now, she's looking specifically at how they respond to one another in social isolation. She is with the Department of Anthropology at Boise State University. Shelly, good morning to you.

SHELLY VOLSCHE: Good morning.

MG: This is an interesting time to be doing the work that you're doing. Why did you want to look into how people and their pets respond during this pandemic?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: Well, my colleague and I that are working on this particular survey, we both do a lot of research. She looks specifically at cats and I look at dogs. And the relationship there really is one that's very deep. It's a very strong attachment. If you think about it, we've spent over 15000 years with dogs. So, of course, they're ubiquitous in our lives. But one of the things that we're noticing is that over the last 20, 30 years, as the world has changed, our relationship with these animals has changed and they've become much more members of our families. Some of the work that I do actually look specifically at how individuals who choose not to have children or for other reasons do not have children are actually taking their parenting strategies and applying them to their pets. So we wanted to do this survey to look at how our pets and children in homes where people are sheltering in place. What other stresses? What are the benefits? How are people mitigating those relationships and balancing the two? And how are pets helping us?

MG: Well, there's that. When you hear Kath talk about the rising demand for dogs, what does that tell you about what humans are looking for right now?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: We're looking for social connection. You know, where we're scared, overstressed or feeling isolated and so we're looking for a connection and many of us have either had pets in our past. We maybe grew up with a dog or cat. We grew in an environment where a neighbour had a dog. You know, they were always around. And so when we can't have people, the next best thing is to reach out for a pet, specifically dogs. It's something we see in a lot of different cultures. There's a lot of situations where when, you know, you can't have a human involved in a specific type of ritual or you're looking for hunting partners, that always ends up being dog. And so what it tells me is that we need that social connection and we're reaching out for it.

MG: This is just a guess. You picked the dog part of the file here. You have a dog?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: I do have a dog.

MG: What is your relationship like with the dog in this time? Has it changed at all in this pandemic?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: It has changed in the sense that now that I'm working from home, she's a lot more clingy. She's a velcro dog as they call in the training world. She follows me everywhere. You know, she is a little bit older. She's 12 years old. And so I'm conscious of the fact that while I'm working from home and she's like this, she's very connected to me. But I also know that when the time comes back and I'm back on campus, there's going to be things I'm going to be needing to think about as the summer wears on. And I'm thinking about getting back on campus, about helping her deal with the fact that I'll be leaving the house again.

MG: What do we know about whether dogs can pick up on the stress that their humans are feeling? I mean, we're all in this moment. And I say that, you know, my dog is blissfully unaware, but I don't know that that's actually the case.

SHELLY VOLSCHE: No, it's not. It's actually interesting because my Twitter feed right now is filled with veterinarians sharing different blogs and different pieces of advice about how to identify site signs of stress in your pets, signs of stress in your dog that we may ignore an excessive yarning, an increase in barking and vocalization and even depression. So we know that dogs are capable of taking up on our mood shifts. They notice differences in the way that we behave, changes in our micro expression, changes in our routine. One of the things about, you know, really severe issues like separation anxiety that makes it difficult to treat as a dog can tell the difference between which pair of shoes you put out and whether you're taking them for a walk or simply going. You know, we getting ready to leave them home for the day. Will you go to work? And so with that in mind, they are aware of the fact, you know, if if you've reached that point where you're like, it's a ponytail day, I'm not going to worry about putting on real clothes. They catch that. Right. And so when it becomes a string of sundaes, rather than you going to work there, they're aware of these changes. They're aware of our own stresses. They're aware of, you know, everything from being able to smell changes in our our hormones. So we know cortisol is one of those those things that goes up when we're stressed. Right. And they can smell these things. On the flip side, they can also, because we do build a strong bond, an attachment to them. They are also capable of sinking into a calm space with us if we are able to calm down for them. And so that's one of the beautiful things about the bond, is we can also soothe each other when we're stressed.

MG: I can imagine the cat lobby saying, what about cats? Dogs are all well and good, but can't cats do this? Do we know whether the cats is capable of any of that or is the cat just concerned with its own well-being?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: You know, research on cats is relatively new. I've got a couple of colleagues who are starting to really look into it. I know last year there was a study about the secure base effect in cats. And so the research into what cats are capable of is new. But given the various, you know, given the similarities in their co evolutionary history, given what we have learned about them, I would suspect it's going to be very similar. They're going to experience it a little differently. Whereas a cat, you know, where I'm sorry, whereas a dog may follow you stress panting or a little bit concerned about why won't you settle down? Why won't you? You know, why is why is our day difference? A cat's response may be too high, right? They may they may think, you know, something's going on and I need to get safe. But on the flip side, I think that the bond itself, the ability to be aware of shifts in the person's routine, shifts in the person's mood. I think that we're going to find that that's very similar.

MG: We've been talking a lot about how we will be shaped by this moment and we talk about kids not being in school or having to do this distance learning and it's either working well or it being a disaster. And we talked about how they could be shaped by by the time that we're in right now. Do you worry, as Kath was talking about, that there could be behavioural issues long term for dogs down the road because of this?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: Absolute. I've had I've had conversations with your colleagues about this. And we really we think that there's a high probability that there will be an increase in the need for qualified canine behaviourists, qualified trainers to help people make the transition to help, you know, when when this we go back to our new normal right of it, because it's talking about the new normal and we are leaving our homes again. We have to remember that we have built a strong attachment with an animal who can't always go with us. Right. There's being can't necessarily go to work with us. They can't necessarily go to the bars with us. Now the things we start doing again. And so being aware that while we go back to our world, we are in many ways their world. And if we aren't conscious of that, we're going to see an uptick in separation anxiety. And like Kath was talking about the door, right? That's a classic separation anxiety sign of when dogs dig at, chew on door frames. They dig at the base of the door. Those types of thing. Cats, you know, not using their litter box anymore and just being aware of that. You know, this is going to be a reality. At some point this change is going to happen and for their well-being, you know, there's there's a lot of ways to start working on those types of things. Now, reaching out to somebody who uses positive methods, who can help you work through kind of retraining their state of mind about you leaving the house, especially because if you have a rescue dog, it's you don't necessarily know their history. So things could be rosy and beautiful when they first come into your home, but if you aren't aware that they had a separation anxiety situation in the first place, plus they've gone through the rescue process, you could be really shocked when the time comes to leave your house of how quickly that can change and and really stress them out.

MG: So just before we let you go, what are you doing now with the velcro dog, as you say, that's attached to you to try and get her ready for when things get back to normal?

SHELLY VOLSCHE: So right now, am because she's older and that I've been kind of catering to it this semester once we transitioned and online classes. But with the summer coming, I will start working on little things, putting on my shoes, but not leaving the house so that my shoes are no longer a trigger, that she's going to be left alone and doing little little outings like going to the mailbox and going to the garbage by myself so that she knows it's OK if I leave because I'll be right back. And you can do that and then start building the time. Right. Being aware of if they if you if you can't even close your front door and the dog starts barking, being thinking about, OK, I need to turn the door into something that doesn't stress them out. There's a lot of those little signs before you actually walk out the door that are already kind of gearing them up to be stressed and we don't always realise it. So working on that and again, you know, finding a qualified behaviourist or dog trainer who does separation work with positive message is always key.

MG: Shelly, great to talk to you. Thank you.

SHELLY VOLSCHE: Thank you.

MG: Shelly Volsche is a biocultural anthropologist, anthrozoologist and faculty member at Boise State University. She was in Boise, Idaho.

[Music]

Kenza Bennouna sends message of hope to fellow international students

Guests: Kenza Bennouna

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway.

[Music: Pomp and Circumstance]

MG: That, of course, is Pomp and Circumstance, the graduation march. Maybe you've heard it at your own high school or college graduation. The music swells. You hear your name and then that hard earned diploma is placed in your hand. Well, at least that's usually what happens. This year, graduates cannot cross a stage, much less celebrate with loved ones. This is especially true for international students. There are nearly 650,000 international students in Canada, including kenza BananaKenza Bennouna, who is originally from Morocco, currently studying in New Brunswick and is on the line with us now. Kenza, hello.

KENZA BENNOUNA: Hey, how are you?

MG: I'm great. You're graduating in June?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Exactly.

MG: How are you feeling?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Weird. It's just weird. It's supposed to be like celebration, we planned a party, but now we're just hoping that everybody is going to be healthy.

MG: How are you going to mark this moment? Again, this is usually such a big thing, friends and family. Maybe there's a party or food or something. How are you going to mark this?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Well, a virtual party, I guess. There's nothing we can't leave. Well, actually, the situation is getting better here in New Brunswick. So we still can't hnag out with friends, but here again, you can choose just one little family. So it's going to be hard.

MG: What has it been like for you in this last few months? You're in the midst of finishing up work at school. You're far from home. How were studies just initially affected by the switch to online learning?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Well, at some point there was no motivation, to be honest with you. I mean, you had some online courses and we had no motivation to do it. We didn't know if we are really graduating or not. We didn't know what the job market would look like after.

MG: And so you just you couldn't get motivated to continue that work?

KENZA BENNOUNA: No. No. I mean, I did I did all of my courses, but again it's not the same thing.

MG: What about for family? Your family is in Morocco.

KENZA BENNOUNA: Yeah.

MG: What's it been like for you to be so far away from them?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Well that's a double dose of stress for sure, because I'm checking cases in my home country more than I do here. Both my parents are retired and old, so they are high risk.

MG: Are you worried for them?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Oh, yes, for sure. They want to cancel my graduation, but now it's all cancelled.

MG: You started this Facebook group and you've been involved in helping to connect people. Tell me a little bit about that Facebook group and the work that you're doing, the volunteer work that you're doing.

KENZA BENNOUNA: So in the beginning, it was about mid-March, I felt like no one is representing us or me exactly. And I decide to represent myself and other international students. So I joined a Facebook Group and they were looking for volunteer people who can help students all around New Brunswick. And I had no idea how I can help them, honestly, because I sent a message and I said, well, I can help. I'm ready to help. I don't know how, but I'm ready to. So in the beginning, start by just translating some request as I'm bilingual and the admin of the group just speaks English. So I started to do some translating. Then I started to connect students as here's a small city. It's a university and some colleges. Students start to chatter, so I already know them. I started to connect them. Some of them who need groceries and some of them have a car. So just connect and that was the main purpose of the group. We just wanted to support students by purchasing groceries, transportation. The one who worked at the shop, to have a financial crisis. So that's how we start.

MG: You wrote a message, and that's amazing that you're doing all that work in that volunteer work at a time when this is really difficult. You also wrote a message for people on this Facebook group. Tell me just briefly, what did the message say?

KENZA BENNOUNA: That I want to be heard. Like in two words, I want be heard and I won't give up. That was the main message.

MG: You say, in it, there's a number of things. Like you, my online courses suck and it's hard to find a single sliver of motivation. Like you I would get a double dose of stress as I look at the number of cases in my home country more than I do here. Like you, the immigration status is freaking me out. Tell me about being freaked out, as you say.

KENZA BENNOUNA: Well, I have no idea what's going on with my immigration stuff. As for example, well my study permit expires in March and I did an application in November to, like to have more time to study as I'm going to be here until June and till now, I have no answer. It's kind of hard, we don't know what's going on after. We normally have to apply for a post diploma permit and we normally have to graduate. We have an internship. So we had to ask for an internship permit. And now this internship permit won't work anymore because we can't do internships. You know, it's kinda hard. We just don't know what to do.

MG: That's a lot of stress to face. You end this by writing, life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning how to dance in the rain. It's the perfect time to show the world your choreography. What do you want us to take away from the moment that we're in?

KENZA BENNOUNA: Well just people have to show their kindness and put effort. I wanted to fix something. I wanted to speak up for those temporary and permanent residents because I know all of them won't. That's why I decided to focus on the emotional part at the beginning. I know in a lot of cultures, showing our feelings is a sign of weakness. So if I contacted an emotional coach few days after, they had, I'm working on would you like to help us? And he was, he just helped us. He was our first patient a few days ago.

MG: You're doing amazing stuff in the midst of this moment. And you're going to graduate as well, which is gonna be really exciting. Congratulations and thank you.

KENZA BENNOUNA: Thank you.

MG: Kenza Bennouna is a student from Morocco who will graduate in June. We reached her in Moncton, New Brunswick. Graduation ceremonies will be very different this year, whether it's university college, high school prom. Let us know what it means to miss this and how you're gonna be celebrating. Are you doing a Zoom grad? Are you coming up with creative ways to mark your graduation? Let us know through the website. It's cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. We want to know what graduation is going to be like for you in this strange time. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

[Music]

Meet Winter, the 4-year-old llama whose blood might hold a treatment for COVID-19

Guests: Daniel Wrapp, Bill Fenical

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Coming up, Little Richard went from washing dishes in a Greyhound bus station to being the king of rock and roll. Tom Power is here to talk about his legacy in half an hour. But first, betting on llamas.

[Music: Theme]

MG: OK. We need to talk now about llamas. I didn't say that very often, but there is a reason. Before we get there, I will say this. You likely know llamas best for a certain nasty habit. Propensity of which has spawned plenty of YouTube videos of people playfully teasing llamas.

SOUNDCLIP

[Video of llama spitting at a llama]

MG: In one, a man sits in a car poking what looks like a biscuit, at a llama who has got its head through the window.

SOUNDCLIP

[Video continued of llama spitting at a lama]

MG: Don't tease it. Yes, that is the llama spitting. I think it's fair to say the man asked for it. Still, if this ever happens to you, don't get too upset because a llama just might save your life in the next year. Researchers have published a study showing antibodies from a llama could prove effective in fighting the coronavirus. In fact, right now, as I speak to you, a four-year-old llama named Winter is grazing in a Belgian meadow, blissfully unaware that she could become a global hero. That news had the host of The Daily Show, Trevor Noah, scratching his head.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah]

MG: That's a fair question. We're going to put it to somebody who actually can answer it. Daniel Wrapp is the co-author of this study. He's a PhD candidate at the University of Texas at Austin. Daniel, good morning.

DANIEL WRAPP: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. To Trevor Noah's question, how did your research team find out about these llama antibodies?

DANIEL WRAPP: Well, he phrased it really well. So in 2016, we began a collaboration with our colleagues at Gant university in Belgium. And what we did was we actually vaccinated this llama winter with the coronavirus spike proteins from the corona viruses that caused MERS and SARS. And we found that this particular llama produced antibodies in response to vaccination, which were able to really potently, neutralize both of those viruses. And the specific class of antibodies are called antibodies. And that's a class of antibodies that is only produced in cameloids and sharks. Cameloids is a group that includes camels, llamas, alpacas and a couple other animals. The reason they're called nanobodies is because they're about half the size of a conventional antibody that you or I would make. And that reduced size makes them potentially really interesting therapeutic candidates because they can wedge themselves into little crevices that are larger antibodies wouldn't otherwise be able to access.

MG: Is Winter, that's the llama that's grazing in the Belgian meadow, is winter some sort of exceptional llama or do all llamas produce these?

DANIEL WRAPP: All llamas produce this class of antibodies. The reason we're able to isolate these specific antibodies from Winter is because she produce them in response to vaccination.

MG: So what happens now?

DANIEL WRAPP: What happens now? Well, as I said, we we tested those antibodies for reactivity against the murres and Saras viruses. And because the SARS coronavirus is so similar to the virus that causes COVID-19, we found that that antibody is capable of neutralizing the COVID-19 virus in a cellular assay that our collaborators use. So we're really excited about potentially exploring this antibody as a therapeutic to help fight off COVID-19.

MG: Do we have any idea as to whether the lama antibodies would work in humans the way that we actually want them to?

DANIEL WRAPP: There have been some preliminary clinical trials in other viruses, namely respiratory since physcial virus, which is a respiratory virus that affects the elderly and infants. But to my knowledge, there's never been a nano body trial in humans before for the coronaviruses. So this would be the first one potentially.

MG: And what would you need to do then to to play this out in humans?

DANIEL WRAPP: Yes, so the roadmap for making it to humans, there is a pre-clinical trials side. We're already beginning to undertake that again with our collaborators at Gueant. So we're beginning by testing for protection and hamster's. If that looks good, we'll move into non-human primates. And if that looks good, then we'll begin the process of a phase one clinical trial.

MG: And the llama again, immune, not some other animal, the llama is the best choice for this?

DANIEL WRAPP: Yeah, it turns out that llamas actually makes surprisingly good laboratory animals. They're very. They take up a lot of space, but they're apparently is a lot of fun to work with.

MG: This is so interesting in part because I think people just would never expect this to happen. I mean, part of that comes out in the joke that Trevor Noah was casting around out there as well, that we have no clue what else could be going on there.

DANIEL WRAPP: Yeah, I think he, it's funny that he brings it up that way, but it's a valid point. That's sort of the driving force behind a lot of basic research. So when we started this in 2016, we were trying to isolate antibodies against the murres and Saras other viruses and there were no active coronavirus outbreaks. We were doing this research as part of basic science to learn more about how these proteins functioned. And all of a sudden, four years later, it might be a cure.

MG: At what point would you know whether this is working? You talked about hamsters and then you kind of move on from there. At what point would you know whether this is actually going to work in humans?

DANIEL WRAPP: So we already know that it works using human cells just in a laboratory experiment. Obviously, there's a big difference between a test tube and a human being. But if we continue to see positive results in hamsters and non-human primates, then we'll we'll probably start to feel a little bit more optimistic about its use in humans.

MG: And then the timeline for getting clearer answers on that in humans would be what?

DANIEL WRAPP: So our our best estimate of when we could potentially have a fully approved product on the market is about a year from now.

MG: A year from now?

DANIEL WRAPP: Yeah that's right.

MG: If if this works, what would be the best way do you think, to celebrate, you know, the work of a llama like Winter if she's managing to somehow save lives around the world?

DANIEL WRAPP: That is a really great question. A collaborator again suggested a statue. I don't know if winter would appreciate as much as maybe an apple, but we'll see. We'll definitely have to celebrate her somehow.

MG: Recognition for the humble llama. Daniel, thank you.

DANIEL WRAPP: Thanks for having me.

MG: Daniel Wrapp is a PhD candidate at the University of Texas at Austin. If a farm field feels like an unlikely place to find a cure for the coronavirus, so too might 10,000 leagues under the sea. But scientists are willing to look just about anywhere, as you know, for solutions. Bill Fenical is a professor at the Centre for Marine Biotechnology and Biomedicine at the University of California, San Diego. Bill, good morning to you.

BILL FENICAL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: We're hearing what's happening in meadows iin Belgium when it comes to llamas. What is in the ocean that could help us cure or treat the coronavirus?

BILL FENICAL: Well, for sure. You know, the first thing you need to remember or realise is that a vast majority of our antibiotics and also cancer drugs are naturally occurring compounds that have been developed over the past 80 years really of discovery. Among those are anti-viral agents that have been discovered. But there has not been a focussed effort at this point on antiviral drug discovery, which I think is too bad.

MG: And so what's in the ocean that might help us when it comes to that work?

BILL FENICAL: Well, what's interesting is that the ocean, of course, 70 percent of the surface of the earth contains the greatest biodiversity on our planet. And what we're looking at and naturally occurring compounds is diverse organisms that live in the sea. So isolating these organisms, extracting them, looking at the kinds of molecules they produce has been a very productive area over the past, I would say 20 to 25 years.

MG: This has worked, you mentioned the natural source for many of the drugs, including cancer drugs. This has worked in your in your field, specifically with cancer drugs, right?

BILL FENICAL: I worked generally in anti-cancer drugs. I have worked somewhat in antibiotics as well. We're thinking of a project to work on COVID-19. And, you know, we don't know how long this pandemic is going to last. We don't know much about what kind of funding's going to be available to put into these labs. But we're having a meeting this week to see what kind of resources we can contribute to control the COVID-19 problem.

MG: How does this work? How do you go about collecting samples from the ocean floor? How far down are you for example?

BILL FENICAL: Well, currently, one of the major things we're working on are our micro organisms from the ocean. And these are collected using a variety of deep ocean sampling devices. And of course, we work on samples even from Shallow Beach Sands out into the deeper parts of the ocean out to around three thousand meters in depth. And we collect samples using some miniaturised sampling devices that we can simply deploy from small boats and then return with samples collected from the ocean bottom.

MG: And then when you get the samples, what is the process as simple as you can make it in terms of shore creating something that would be trialed?

BILL FENICAL: We bring it into the lab and then we look at what kinds of microorganisms we'll be able to grow from those samples. And typically, there is a wealth of microbial life, obviously sometimes 10 to the ninth cells per cubic centimetre of bottom sediment, over a billion cells, diverse organisms that occur in those bottom sediments of the ocean. So it's a great resource, wonderful resource. And there are ways to use those marine resources in. Organised plans to look at confronting the COVID pandemic.

MG: What is that process? I mean, how do you take, you know, from the billions of things that may have been collected from that ocean floor to go about feeding it or whether it's going to match something like COVID-19?

BILL FENICAL: Absolutely. So what we know about COVID-19 at this point is that it's a small organism. It has around 30 proteins in it that represent targets for the development of drugs. The problem is that the majority of those proteins we don't know anything about. We can assume that those proteins in the virus are what activate the negative health consequences. So one of the things that needs to be done is to look at those proteins, perhaps develop drugs that will bind to those proteins, deactivate their negative effects and therefore be useful in treatment.

MG: How much potential do you think is understood in terms of what the ocean can offer us? I mean this is it's remarkable when what you're talking about here.

BILL FENICAL: Well, the potential is massive. The question is, do science, scientists and science itself fully understand the potential of the ocean? And I think the answer is no. You know, we are terrestrial organisms. Most of what we understand is on land. And when you introduce someone to the ocean and say, look at this massive biodiversity, look at the potential, they basically say, yeah, but we can't do that. And of course, the answer is perhaps they can't. But there is a large group of people now in the world that understand the ocean are capable of doing this discovery process. This excitement where you realise you have something that can be developed that can save lives.

MG: This is really interesting from llamas, who what may be far, far, far beneath the surface of the ocean. Bill, it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

BILL FENICAL: You're very welcome, Matt. Have a good morning.

MG: And you. Bill Fenical is a professor at the Centre for Marine Biotechnology and Biomedicine at the University of California, San Diego.

[Music]

Tom Power in conversation with Josh Gad and remembering Little Richard

Guests: Tom Power, Josh Gad

MG: It's The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Tom Power, host of Q is back. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: I'm just so glad that all these talk of llamas is not leading to the alpalcalypse.

MG: Thank you very much and good night.

TOM POWER: Know, I swear that was perhaps the worst thing you've ever come up with in my life. I do have, I do have a go one for you. Ready for this one?

MG: Yes.

TOM POWER: Okay. What time does Sean Connery go to Wimbledon?

MG: What time does Sean Connery go to Wimbledon?

TOM POWER: Tennish.

MG: 1-800-JOKES.

TOM POWER: Yeah, I know. I know. I'm starting to run out of them. Matt, nce to talk to you. How's it going?

MG: All as well.

TOM POWER: Are you a, you've got kids right? You guys watch Frozen?

MG: To the point at which the songs were stuck in my head and I thought they would never leave.

TOM POWER: Josh Gad plays Olaf, who I believe is the snow man in Frozen.

MG: Do you want to build a snowman?

TOM POWER: Yeah, exactly. He's also known for his role in the Book of Mormon on Broadway. And now you can see him on YouTube in a new series called Reunited Apart. That's where he reunites casts a classic movies like The Goonies. You a Goonies fan, Matt?

MG: Way back when, yeah.

TOM POWER: Back to the Future?

MG: Very much so.

TOM POWER: He's gotten the cast back together on Zoom. Let's hear some of my conversation with him.

SOUNDCLIP

[Tom Power's conversation with Josh Gad]

MG: That's Tom Power in conversation with Josh Gad. His new series on YouTube is called Reunited Apart. Time say goodbye to our friends in Newfoundland and Labrador. Cross-talk is up next for you. For everyone else, we're back in 90 seconds and we'll be talking about learning at home. School is out across most of this country. And parents are getting a new appreciation for the great work that teachers do. We'll talk about how that learning at home is doing and what it tells us about what learning, particularly e-learning or online learning, might look like in future. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in a minute and a half.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of Little Richard in 1972 BBC interview]

MG: You and me both. Little Richard, Rock and Roll pioneer in an interview in 1972 with the BBC. The artist went from washing dishes at a Greyhound bus station to topping the music charts and changing. I think it's fair to say just about everything when it came to popular music died on Saturday. He was 87-years-old. Tom Power is the host of Q. He's here to talk about the life and legacy of the man born Richard Wayne Penniman. Tom, good morning.

TOM POWER: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: Who was Little Richard?

TOM POWER: It depends on who you ask. Some would say an architect of rock and roll. Some say the rightful king of rock and roll. He described himself pretty much often as the originator of rock and roll. And that's not far off. As you mentioned, his you know, his real name is Richard Pennyman. The best way I can describe him is someone who really changed the world with his music, but was also sort of a groundbreaking sort of unknowable character during his life. But one thing that's been clear in revisiting his music over the past few days is that there was really nothing like it beforehand and we still hear it even now.

MG: Simon Price is a music critic that I grew up reading in The Melody Maker and New Music Express. And on the weekend he tweeted "Little Richard was the firecracker who set it all off right there at rock 'n roll's big bang, this ungovernable force transcending race, gender and sexuality. Literally a screaming queen. I met him once and it was like touching the hand of God."I love it.

TOM POWER: I love it too. I mean, his influence, you can just feel it everywhere. I mean, the Beatles covered Little Richard Prince was influenced by Little Richard. Little Richard wasn't shy about that, by the way, saying, hey, he wore purple first, most famously Bob Dylan in his high school yearbooks. And his dream was to play with Little Richard. Yesterday, grieving Little Richard, Bob Dylan wrote. He was my shining star and guiding light back when I was only a little boy. He was the original spirit that moved me to do everything I would do. And yeah, he inspired everything from the frenetic energy of rock and roll, the song structure, as you know, with the big stops. You know, and the showmanship that makes a great performer, a great performer. And of course, you know his style. Take take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Interview of Little Richard]

TOM POWER: That is Little Richard. I mean, you know, they're talking about a style. And, you know, it's interesting. He performed in minstrel shows across the south when he was a kid. He was a drag queen called Princess Lavonne. And he sort of synthesized a mainstream that style as Little Richard calling himself the king and queen of the blues. I was reading this article by Mary Beth Hamilton, who's a great pop culture historian over the weekend. And she said he was of a black gay world and a tradition of black drag performance that formed an integral part of the culture of rhythm and blues. He made the drag queen sly ironies, part of every white teenagers soundtrack.

MG: That's incredible when you think of it. I mean, you think of that when he was born in Macon, Georgia, the time that he's performing in and what was happening when it came to race relations in the United States at that time.

TOM POWER: I mean, it's a really interesting time because, you know, it was during the era of segregation, Pat Boone covered Tutti Frutti, famously did better on the charts than the La Richard, a white artist doing better than a black artist. Little Richard responded by playing long, tall Sally faster so that Pat Boone would never be able to sing it. It's complicated because Little Richard's music was definitely appropriated, was definitely popularized by white artists, is kind of the story of rock n roll and popular music. Questlove from the Roots described him as the blueprint the world took from. However, Little Richard was proud of the way he was able to desegregate audiences. He was proud that his show is like Ray Charles. Shows were full black and white teenagers dancing together. You know, he could he could frustrate you. You know, I spoke with John Waters about this. It's going to air on cue tonight. He would talk about being gay, but he would say I was gay. And John said that was part of the contradiction of someone like Little Richard. He could frustrate you. He could make homophobic and transphobic comments. But his music always really made you move. And I really feel like we'll be hearing it for generations to come.

MG: And the influence, there's a photo this was circulating on the weekend of him with David Bowie. And David Bowie just has this this unbelievable smile on his face, like, I can't believe I'm standing beside Little Richard and credited him for so much of who he became and the shape-shifting that he was able to do in his own career.

TOM POWER: There's just not that many of those people left anymore. You know, the people who are sort of the architects of all of the music that you hear right now, of all of the pop culture here right now. I mean, Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard famously sort of feuded and I know they weren't necessarily buddies. And I don't know how Jerry Lee feels today, but, you know, we're we're kind of running out of them. We're kind of running out of these these last architects of this music and of this culture.

MG: Tom, thank you.

TOM POWER: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Tom Power, host of Q. You'll hear more about the influence of Little Richard tonight on Q on CBC Radio One. In the meantime, we will end the show with this. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

[Song: "Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard]

May 11, 2020 episode transcript

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