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The Current Transcript for March 09, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: The mood is people are wanting justice. People are wanting truth and transparency. And people are wanting healing. You know, it has been many more murders that were committed. Here in Minnesota alone, let alone around the United States, but here in Minnesota, there's been many, many more brutal murders such as George Floyd that were unjust at the hands of the police. Here in Minnesota, there has been many cover-ups here in Minnesota. And there is a lot of families that are out here hurting and re-traumatized by what we've seen happen to George Floyd. So people are in a place where we're hoping for and praying for justice in George Floyd's case because that gives us hope for our loved ones as well. Because our loved ones that were stolen from us in the same nature as George Floyd and unjustly deserve the same amount of justice.

MATT GALLOWAY Just briefly, tell us what happened. I mean, when you talk about families, this is your family as well. What happened with your fiancee, the father of your child, and after that altercation with the police?

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: Yes, the father of my son and my fiancee, Justin Teigen, was pulled over by the St. Paul police here in Minnesota August 19, 2009. And ultimately, after being pulled over, he was found dead, brutally beat to death. All over his body was bruises and dog bites. And his skull was cracked in half after an encounter with the police. And I have been harassed and followed. They've sat outside my home. They waved at me, followed me to the store with my son in the car because I was seeking answers. As well as Justin's the mother, she was seeking answers as well, wanting to know why did Justin get pulled over? And then once he got pulled over, it ended up that his body was found in a recycling facility after being pulled over by police. And they never originally told us that they pulled him over. We found that out later. They originally told our family that he was in a car accident and missing from the scene of the accident. After that, we saw a video with the police catch Justin. Justin did run. But on the video, it shows Justin and the police that they caught him, but it goes blank. So they tampered with the evidence. And that's the only difference between George Floyd and the rest of the murders that have happened here is that they were able to get to the videos and tamper with the videos and edit the videos or destroy the videos. Where George Floyd's case, it was Facebook Live, and it spread so fast that they were able to catch the video in time. If they would have had a chance to catch that video in time to edit the video or to destroy it all the way together, they would have done that. But it spread too fast on Facebook Live.

MATT GALLOWAY Right.

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: And that's the only reason why the difference between George Floyd's case and hundreds of more cases here in Minnesota. There's over 470 murders at the hands of law enforcement. And I work with many families. And out of the 470 in the last 20 years, there has been no convictions but for one family, and that is a minority man that killed a white woman, Justine Dumond. So she is the only family in the history of Minnesota to ever receive complete, true justice where an officer was convicted where all of these other families --

MATT GALLOWAY Given... given that... I was going to just say given that, what do you think is at stake then? I mean, this is... this trial... and part of it is about what you're saying, that, you know, the world watched in some ways through that video, the death of George Floyd. So given that, what do you think is at trial... at stake in this trial?

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: What's at stake is showing the community and the world equality we must understand that the uprise and everything that we saw at the George Floyd's death, after watching that, witnessing his murder, this is not the result. The urprise was not the result of just one man's life. It's the result of hundreds of lives here in the state of Minnesota that have gone unaddressed in south and around the United States, and millions around the world where people have experienced a police trauma and abuse of authority and racial profiling. All of these scenes in the community and in the world at this point we can clearly see. We're tired. It's been a big abuse of authority. And equality is at stake at this point. We know at this point we have to call it out for what it is. It's the elephant in the room, where everybody's quiet about it. But we have to face the fact that a lot of these killings that led up to George Floyd's murder are racially-motivated crimes. They're racially-motivated murders. There's... we know, and we've seen through history that a Black African-American man or a minority person can lose their life at the hands of law enforcement, and there's no consequences for it.

MATT GALLOWAY So if this trial, I mean, as you mentioned, I mean, there's only been one guilty verdict in past in terms of police involved in the death of a civilian in your state. If there isn't a guilty verdict in this case, what message do you think that will send?

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: That was send that... that will send what it has the same message it's sent for Philando Castile, and that is set for the rest of our families, that there is no justice for Black people. There is no justice for Indigenous or minority people. There is no justice. If you are a minority person, there is no justice for you or your family if killed by law enforcement. The only justice that will be received if you are a white person because that's the message that has already been sent. When they killed Philando Castile, prior to George Floyd, the officer walked free, OK? Then, in Justine Dumond's case, a white woman who was killed a couple months after George Floyd... I mean after Philando, that officer, who was a minority man, he's incarcerated and they gave the family 20-million dollars. Where you see the difference and even the dollar amount, not to talk about money, but it's a factor. Even in the dollar amount that was given to Philando's mother, three million dollars. So that one-fifth of a human that they consider African-American people to be was shown. And so they constantly show our people that we are not equal. That we are not due the same amount of justice in our cases. That is a message that has constantly bee said prior to George Floyd, which we all believe in our hearts led up to George Floyd. George Floyd would be alive today had the people in the political seats that can make changes had they listened to the community and the families that have been out here crying and pleading for help. We've been pleading for help, and no one made any changes. And that is why George Floyd is gone. George Floyd could be alive today had changes been made in the community that we were all out here fighting for prior to George Floyd's death.

MATT GALLOWAY Toshira, we will be watching to see how this trial unfolds. I appreciate speaking with you this morning. Thank you very much.

TOSHIRA GARRAWAY: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY Toshira Garraway is an activist and founder of Families Supporting Families Against Police Violence. Kami Chavis is a professor of law and the director of the Criminal Justice Program at Wake Forest University School of Law in North Carolina. She specializes in criminal justice reform and police accountability. And, as you can imagine, will be following this trial closely. Kami, good morning to you.

KAMI CHAVIS: Hello, good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY You've heard how a local activist there against police violence is feeling as this trial is set to begin. What do you think is at stake in this trial?

KAMI CHAVIS: Yes, I agree with many of the sentiments that that she made. There has been a long history of violence against unarmed Black people at the hands of police officers. And often, these... these incidents go unaccounted for. There very rarely are officers in these cases even prosecuted. So that is, you know, even though I don't believe that that should be a victory in this case. But at least we see a prosecution, a charge in this case. But we know that even when officers are charged, and there's a trial, finding justice or having those guilty verdicts is sometimes still very elusive.

MATT GALLOWAY There have been calls for greater accountability and certainly reform of police in the wake of the deaths of Eric Garner and Breonna Taylor and Philando Castile, and the list goes on and on and on. Those reforms certainly picked up speed this summer after the death of George Floyd. What was different, do you think, about George Floyd's death in terms of what it did to that conversation?

KAMI CHAVIS: Well, you know, it's very interesting that you mentioned both of those cases, Eric Garner and Breonna Taylor. And I do think that those cases are significant and related to what happened to Mr. Floyd. In each of those cases, you have people, three people, who were killed, and there was no allegation of... of any violent crime at all during the time that that they were killed at the hands of police. Eric Garner selling loose cigarettes. You know, Breonna Taylor sleeping in her home, and even though this was a warrant issued, it was a drug felony warrant. It was... it was not... you know, we're not looking for a murder suspect. And in the case of George Floyd, you know, alleged passing of a 20-dollar counterfeit bill. So these are very minor crimes where you have police officers approaching individuals and coming into contact with individuals who... who end up dead. So when you look at the backdrop of that, the George Floyd case, and it's just as your guest said, you know, this is... I think what was particularly egregious about Mr. Floyd's case is that you had eight minutes, 46 seconds for that officer's knee, was on his neck in broad daylight just with impunity that he could take a life in that way. Others standing around watching. And it was broadcast so quickly. And spread so quickly. And so, the visibility of that crime made it impossible to ignore. But I think that it is... it's a long history. And we just we passed a breaking point. So the protests that we saw this summer, there were lots of changes at the local level. But again, these were changes that many criminal justice reform advocates had been asking for for years. I've maintained, you know, we know what to do in terms of addressing police accountability. We just in our country have had the lack of a will to do it. There are many things in terms of, you know, banning chokeholds for one thing. That... that's an easy thing to do. That should be an easy reform to make. And yet, it did take a case like this to get that type of local reform. You know, banning no-knock warrants in some jurisdictions. So the point is that local jurisdictions have acted quickly, but we really need widespread national reform.

MATT GALLOWAY Were you encouraged at all when House Democrats passed the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act?

KAMI CHAVIS: You know, I am encouraged because I think that there's... there's certainly a time in our history where you would have had, again, all of these reforms at some point or another have been suggested. And so to have them all in, you know, a package and passed by the House, it is significant, but it is just... but, you know, again, one incremental step. We still.. it still has to pass the Senate. And I think, honestly, that will be difficult.

MATT GALLOWAY Given the pressure from organizations that support the police?

KAMI CHAVIS: Yes, I think that the law enforcement lobby will... there will be certain changes that... that they will not advocate for. But I also think that when you have this... this drumbeat of law and order, you know, what we've seen, particularly from our previous president and, you know, exploiting the protests that you mentioned, which were largely peaceful protests. And then exploiting those instances where, you know, they turned violent and, you know, making citizens... making folks seem that, you know, we risk law and order, we risk the rule of law if we don't have very strict rules or if we were to pass this type of police accountability. I think that there is also a messaging issue. I firmly believe that safeguarding public safety that, you know, having police officers do their job is not mutually exclusive to having them do their job in a constitutionally and just manner. We can do both.

MATT GALLOWAY There's this idea that justice needs to be done, but it also needs to be seen to be done. And as Toshira is saying, I mean, convictions against police officers are very rare. Charges against police officers are often very rare. What do you think the message would be that would be sent if... if this officer, former officer, is not found guilty?

KAMI CHAVIS: Well, I again, I agree with Toshira because given the facts now, of course, in a court of law, there are going to be the burden of proof is very high. You're going to have to prove that this officer... you're going to have to prove every element of that second-degree murder charge beyond a reasonable doubt. And the burden is high. And in police cases, you know, of course, we have the... the sympathy that jurors may feel for police officers. Although, it's really hard to see based on the facts and based on that video, you know, how this officer's actions were constitutional, how they... how they were not [chuckling] second-degree murder. But the... the defence, their job will be to poke holes in that. I'm sure there will be... they will seise on issues of causation. Did this really cause his his death? But the message, I think, that that will be sent is exactly what your guest said in terms of, you know, the value of a Black life. Does it mean if Derek Chavin is found not guilty for doing what we all saw him do, approach a man who was not acting in a violent manner based on this alleged passing of a 20-dollar counterfeit bill? Hold him down, listen to him, hear him say that he can't breathe. Have the other officers around failed to intervene? Not once did he relieve any any pressure off of his neck, did he render aid. To... to have all of those facts and then to have, you know, a not guilty verdict. I think that many Americans, the world really, will hear the message that Black lives don't matter and that police officers can kill people in the street with without redress.

MATT GALLOWAY We just have about 30 seconds left. What would justice look like to you in a case like this?

KAMI CHAVIS: Justice would look like a fair trial, a fair trial for the defendant and for Mr. Floyd's family. And we're going to have to wait, going to have to listen. But justice is not just through this trial. We need widespread police accountability and reform in this country.

MATT GALLOWAY Kami Chavis, it's great to speak with you about this. We will be watching. Thank you very much.

KAMI CHAVIS: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY Kami Chavis, is a professor of law and the director of the Criminal Justice Program at Wake Forest University School of Law in North Carolina. The CBC News is coming up next. And then,.

WOMAN: I just wish I was able to, like, say my goodbyes properly, and just to hear her voice one more time.

MATT GALLOWAY The lives lost in this country during the pandemic. We continue our special coverage, "Covid in Canada, One Year and Counting". We will remember three people lost over the course of this year. We're speaking with friends and family members about who they were and what they miss. That's coming up in about six minutes' time. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Canadians remember loved ones lost to COVID-19

Guests: Peter Wheeland, Katy Saunders, Ashley Ambersley

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, racism at Buckingham Palace, and what that could mean for commonwealth countries like Canada. But first, "COVID in Canada, One Year and Counting". We remember some of the people we've lost this past year.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: On March 8th, 2020, Canada recorded its first COVID death at a long-term care facility in British Columbia. Since then, the disease has claimed the lives of more than 22,000 Canadians. And that's left many more grieving the loss of parents, children, spouses, relatives, co-workers and friends. Peter Wheeland's father, Ken Wheeland, died of complications from COVID-19 last April. He was living in a long-term care home. Katy Saunders lost her husband, Keith Saunders, last March. He worked in a grocery store. And Ashley Ambersley lost her mother, Maureen Ambersley, in January. She was a nurse. Good morning to you all.

ALL: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: I am sorry for everything that you have been through. You have all had a really, really tough year, and I can't imagine what that's like. But I really appreciate you all being willing to speak with us. That's important. So thank you very much. Katy, I wanted to start with you. And just to spend the first couple of minutes speaking with all of you about this, tell me about Keith. Who was Keith?

KATY SAUNDERS: Keith was a giant teddy bear, to be honest. He was one of those guys that you could always go to, that would always have a good shoulder to cry on, would have great advice, very positive, always smiling, very hard worker. Just he had a great sense of humour and was just kind of an all-around great guy.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Ashley? Tell me about your mom.

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: She was like an awesome individual. She was very loving, caring. She was very giving. She always thought about the unfortunate and people who didn't have much. She was that type of person she'll give her last, even if that means that she'll have like nothing to ensure, like, somebody has something to eat, something to wear. Like, she was just amazing. And I'm just so happy that she was able to raise me and my brother like that. Like, we're very caring individuals. Even at the workplace that she was... she was always, like, worried about the residents. She ensured that she attended all any of them that passed away their funerals. She was just that type of person, like a very loving individual.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Peter? Tell me about your father. Who who was he? What was he like?

PETER WHEELAND: My... my father was he was whip-smart, he was generous, he was kind, and... and he was extremely funny. You know, he was my my hero in my adult life. I didn't appreciate him as much as I should when I was a teenager. [chuckle] I guess a lot of people are like that. But, you know, I really appreciated him in my adult life, and I and I really miss him to this day.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you mean he was your hero? Tell me more about that.

PETER WHEELAND: We had five kids in seven years, so you can imagine it was a pretty crowded household. And yet, at one point when my... my mother and sister moved over from England, and her husband didn't have a job, they moved the whole family into the basement of our house. At other times when friends of mine or friends and my sisters were having troubles with their parents or whatever left home, one friend of mine was sleeping on a park bench. The next thing you know, my father is inviting them to stay with us. So that's the kind of guy he was throughout his life. He was a volunteer in all kinds of different groups. He was a man who gave of his time and gave generously to people, and never sought the limelight for it when he, you know, would pull you out of a hole by lending you a few thousand dollars, he didn't announce to the rest of the world that he had done that. He did it quietly and discreetly to preserve your your dignity. So that's the kind of guy he was.

MATT GALLOWAY: Sounds like really quite something.

PETER WHEELAND: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: Katy, if you think back to, I mean, the early days of the pandemic, it seems like a lifetime ago in many ways, but it was really scary in... in those early days. And I know that Keith was working in a grocery store when everything was changing so quickly. What was that like? I mean, what was it like for you to watch him going off to work?

KATY SAUNDERS: It was scary because we didn't know much about it. And there was the issue with the toilet paper and the water. And he would come home saying, you know, people were attacking him over when he was putting out skids of toilet paper and water. And it was just... it was bizarre.

MATT GALLOWAY: People were attacking him?!

KATY SAUNDERS: Yeah, they literally were... they were literally climbing on him. One lady spat on him. It was just... it was it was incredible.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did he start getting sick?

KATY SAUNDERS: Well, we noticed he was getting sick about the 16th of March. And by the time we hit the 19th, I had to call the ambulance. That's when he was taken away was on March the 19th. And we thought it was the flu. And Telehealth kept telling us, you know, don't call it ambulance until the fever's been this high for this long, or. But I knew something was wrong.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

KATY SAUNDERS: You know, the worse he kept getting over the days, I knew he needed to go to the hospital.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Ashley? I mean, again, your mom is working right there on the front lines in a high-risk job as well. And you're hearing Katy talk about what Keith was up against. Were you worried about your mom's safety when she was going into work?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: So like, none of us really knew how powerful the coronavirus was. I'm thinking they're taking this way out of proportion. But my mom was always worried, like... and, like, listening to other people. [beginning to cry] It's very emotional because, like, she was always scared. She was always like, I don't want to get corona because she felt she couldn't handle it because she was overweight and stuff like that. So I like don't worry, don't worry, you know? You're not going to get it. Stop saying that. Stop... like, get that out of your mind. We're all going to do this together. And my family... because it was not just her that was affected. My grandparents also got it and survived. And it's just really hurtful because she was scared. She would cry sometimes, and she's like don't worry. You're wearing your proper gear at work and stuff like that. And when she heard of little outbreaks at work, she would be so nervous. But at the same time, she couldn't not go in because she's like, if I don't go in, then, like, you know, she doesn't feel like she's doing her job as a nurse, right? Because she was the head of her department. Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did she start to get sick? When did you realize? And, I mean, again, she's doing all the right things, and she's wearing the right equipment and stuff. When did... when did she start to get sick?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: Around in December, around Christmas time. [beginning to cry harder]

MATT GALLOWAY: And did it move really quickly? I mean, one of the things with this is that you just don't know what's happening, right?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: It did. It was really fast. She went into the hospital because she was sick. She... she didn't think she had Corona because she did a lot of testing, they do rapid-testing at her workplace every week. So they didn't even tell her her results until late Christmas Eve. And then she couldn't breathe. She's like, no, this is not Corona. And then she went into the hospital the Christmas morning, early morning, like 4:00 a.m. And then we haven't seen her since.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm so sorry. Peter, both of your parents were living in the residence Herron in Montreal, and there was a huge outbreak there in March. When did you find out what was going on in that long-term care facility?

PETER WHEELAND: My parents were both in Herron up until March 17th, when my father was transferred to a public long-term care home from Herron. We had a really good idea of what was going on in Herron on the 29th of March, which was kind of it was the nightmare day and night on a Sunday at Herron. We were able to talk to my mother on the phone, and she had told us that my mother was bedridden, that nobody had come by to get her out of her bed in the morning. No one had brought her breakfast. She only got lunch because an orderly had left it in the hall, and her neighbour pushed it across to her so she could eat. She was sitting in soiled diapers. Her catheter bag was so full that it exploded, and it was on the floor. And then finally, an orderly showed up mid-afternoon and said, look, I'm really sorry, there's only two of us working the entire floor of about 80 people. I can only do one thing for you. I know you have all kinds of needs, but you're going to have to just tell me what's urgent because that's all I've got time to do.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh my gosh!

So she said, you know, please get me out of these... these diapers. So and like we were trying to get a hold of people. We had the number of the manager of the residence and everything. We kept trying to call them. We were getting no answers from anyone. My sister Carolyn called me from Toronto, and she said... She said, like, I'm really worried. Did you did you hear about that incident in Spain where the army came in, they found people dead in their beds, and all the staff had deserted? And I said, well, you know, I don't think that's going to happen here. And then I thought about it for a second, and I said, you know, I bet you they thought it wasn't going to happen in Spain either. So I started to panic. And then finally, at around 7:00 that evening, we got notification that the local health authority, the cavalry was coming and that they were going to... to help take care of the residents.

MATT GALLOWAY: And your father had been moved, as you said?

PETER WHEELAND: Yeah, he was he was moved to a different residence. We couldn't talk to him at all because there wasn't a phone in his room. When you tried to call, there was no answer at the desk often. And so we lost contact with my father, and we weren't allowed in the building. We finally convinced them to bring a cell phone in. And when my brother went to bring the cell phone in, that's when he was told that my father was dying. So that was a blessing in some senses because, under the compassion rules, we got to spend... my father was not alone for those last three days of his life. I got to spend a day-and-a-half there with him, and my brother, and another one of my sisters got to spend time with him. So, at least he didn't die alone, which a lot of people have done. And after he died, the COVID test came back and showed that he was positive.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what about for your mom?

PETER WHEELAND: Well, my mother was... like, I was convinced that she had COVID, but we were having a hell of a time trying to convince them to test her. So we finally said, no, get her the hell out of there. Send her to the hospital. Have her thest for COVID. Of course, she came back positive for COVID. And then... and then when she had was no longer infectious, they wanted to send her back to Herron. [chuckles] And he kind of said, no way! So we pushed and shoved, and we did everything we could. We rented a furnished apartment for her. My sister and I told the local health authorities that we would be there full-time. She would be 24/7. But when my mother got out of the hospital, when they brought her the apartment, she was to the point of death. She wasn't drinking. She wasn't eating. She was refusing to take her medication. If you even put a wet cloth to her lips, she would yell out, no, no, no, no, and repeating over and over again. She was like completely incoherent, suffering from delirium. If they had sent her back to Herron in that situation, she would have died there. She would have been on the body count there. Instead, she recovered when surrounded by a loving family. And, you know, we were blessed to get another nine months of life out of her. Unfortunately, my mother also died in December, the day before Christmas. She had a fall from her bed, and she broke her hip. I think she didn't die of a broken hip, she died of a broken heart because she missed my father.

MATT GALLOWAY: What a hard thing to go through as a... as a son.

PETER WHEELAND: It's... people were... people were going through that, like Katy's story, and Ashley's story, and people are going... are going still going through that right now. I think one of the worst things about the way we treated the elderly in long-term care homes, you know, the cutting people off from their families was the worst decision, the stupidest decision that was made. I think that contributed to a lot of premature deaths because people felt isolated, and didn't have their families there as advocates for the, you know? We weren't able to observe what was going on inside the homes.

MATT GALLOWAY: That isolation was happening in hospitals as well, Katy, right? I mean, you talked about the 19th of March when you had to call the ambulance. What happened once Keith was was taken to the hospital?

KATY SAUNDERS: On the 19th of March, he was strapped into the stretcher. I kissed him on the forehead, and then that is the last time we saw each other. And I got a phone call at about 3:00 in the morning that morning of what would have been the 20th of March. And the hospital doctor called me and said they had put him into a medically-induced coma, and that he was on a ventilator, and his organs were starting to fail. He then proceeded to pass away on the 25th of March by himself. I got a phone call in the evening of March 25th from the hospital to let me know that he had passed away from COVID.

MATT GALLOWAY: A phone call.

KATY SAUNDERS: So it was a very sad. You never think that somebody with no underlying issues who was 48.

MATT GALLOWAY: Forty-eight.

KATY SAUNDERS: And healthy as can be, could be taken. And I think that's where my shock came from, is that how fast it went. And just that he went alone. That was very hard on me, and it was hard on his family as well. It a very sad, sad time to experience.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's so awful to have gone through this. And I mean, each of your stories, as Peter was saying, in many ways, are reflective of what so many Canadians have lived through in this last year. What did you lean on, Katy, for support?

KATY SAUNDERS: My family. My family has been just an unbelievable source of... of listening to me [laughing] ramble on. I have gotten counselling as well. And I am not afraid to admit to that because I needed to and continue to do so to keep my mental health in a space where I can keep going. But a lot of it is family.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Ashley? I mean, who have you been leaning on in the wake of your mom's death?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: I've been leaning on my brother. It's just the two of us. And then my grandparents, and they came back. And my family, my kids that, you know, show me joy, and with some good friends.

MATT GALLOWAY: Katy, why is it important for you to talk about this?

KATY SAUNDERS: This coronaviruses for real. You know, I want people to understand that, you know, social distancing, staying at home, wearing a mask, all of that is to protect us. And not only that, the loved ones that you do have, hold on to the dear and make sure that you tell them you love them as much as possible because you never know when you're just... you're just going to have them yanked away from you.

MATT GALLOWAY: You all have the shared experience in some ways, and it's very different, and you're in different parts of the country, but there is something shared about what you went through. And I just wonder, you don't know each other, but you're all on the line. Peter, what would you say to... to Katy and Ashley having come out of this really difficult year?

PETER WHEELAND: I feel for so... for so many people. There's so many horror stories out there that, you know, sometimes I'm sure this happens with... with you as well. It's like I'll just be watching a TV program and some innocuous thing [laughing] sends me into a fit of tears. We... we lost loved ones a lot earlier than they should have gone, especially, you know, Katy, in the case of your husband, Keith, and Ashley, your mother as well. But the frustration, for me, it's this loss of contact. This inability in so many cases to say goodbye to your loved ones that's... that brings out the tears in me every time. I'm so grateful for the fact that I had time to talk to my father before he died, even though he didn't talk to me, and I wasn't sure that he could hear what I was saying. Just to be able to do that was a blessing. And it's a blessing that... that you guys didn't have. And I understand how... how horrible that feeling is. And I empathize with you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ashley, what would you say to Katy and to Peter?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: I would just say, you know, first, my condolences. It's so sad to hear both of you guys' stories. And just to remember that they live within us, and they would want us to push forward and to live our lives and just to remember the good about them. And to just remember they'll never leave us. And to spread their story and how all of our loved ones suffered through COVID, and to just spread awareness.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Katy, you made a really good point earlier about not taking things for granted, and as you said, hugging your loved ones, the people who are around you. But what would you say to Peter and Ashley who are on the line right now?

KATY SAUNDERS: My condolences to both of you. And this whole situation is... is absolutely crazy and better days are to come, I guess. And I guess more than anything is just hold on to your loved ones and tell them how much you love them and appreciate every minute you have with them because you don't know how long you have with them.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's your... what's the thing that you remember the most, your favourite memory of Keith?

KATY SAUNDERS: Oh, we have a... we had a hobby. We were great foodies, and his favourite hobby was to smoke meat, like mae brisket and pulled pork. And I guess my favourite memories are when he would get so excited and get up early in the morning and make a pot of coffee. And, you know, the dogs areoit running around the backyard, and the smoker's going, and he's injecting the meat, and I got a big smile on my face. And he goes, it's cooking day! You know, kind of thing [Matt laughs] in his... in his, you know, grumbly voice and... and kind of half half grin. An, you know, and I knew I was in for it because he made a terrible mess. He was an amazing cook, but my kitchen looked like a tornado went through it afterwards. [Matt and Katy laugh] But those are my favourite memories. It's the two of us spending the day doing something so simple.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Ashley? I mean, what is it... what is it that when you think of your mom. What brings a smile to your face?

ASHLEY AMBERSLEY: I just remember everything she would say, like little things, little jokes. Like, if I don't want to get up for work, she's like, you're going to be late. You don't want to make money?! And stuff like that. Or like her baking and telling me, oh, Ashley, you can't eat from the spoon! Because she's such a great baker, and I'd always come home and steal her spatula, and I'm like, I'm eating this! [Matt chuckles] And she'll be like no, and like that, and getting really upset with me. And just all those little things I miss. I also miss her, like, yelling my name, Ashleyyyyy! For something I left downstairs because, like, I, you know, I'm a young adult. I'm in my 20s. So it's just that's what I mostly miss. I mostly miss her, hearing her voice, me always thinking, what now, and stuff like that. I just wish I was able to, like, say my goodbyes properly and just to hear her voice one more time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Last word to you, Peter. When you think of your parents, what is it that that gives you a smile?

PETER WHEELAND: With my dad, it's his... he had a really dry sense of humour, you know? And a straight face, so you couldn't tell he was joking half the time. So, you know, it took me a while sometimes to understand that he was joking. So it was only when I was 40 I realied he really was my father. [chuckle] No, it's a joke. [Matt and Peter laugh].

MATT GALLOWAY: You inherited it.

PETER WHEELAND: Yes, that's it. But, you know, this caring thing is what I didn't say. Like my mother... my mother, after having the seven kids, when the youngest was two, had a psychotic break and was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And my father, with five young kids in the house and a full-time job and an ill wife who literally was not the same person he married, soldiered on through all of that. And they were... they were partners and best friends for 63 years. And his support and love for everyone in this family, I mean, that's what I miss the most. He was the one who kept the family together. And that's a tribute to my... to my father and the morals and the values that he shared with us. And that became part of us. So, he lives on through us.

MATT GALLOWAY: This year has been hard for so many people, and you've all had a lot to deal with, but you've been very, very generous this morning in remembering your family and your loved ones. And I really appreciate that, and for being willing to talk about what you have gone through. It's important. So thank you very much and take care of yourselves.

ALL: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Peter Wheeland lost his father, Ken Wheeland, to COVID-19 in April of last year. His mother, Connie Wheeland, died in December. Katy Saunders lost her husband, Keith, in March of last year. And Ashley Ambersley's mother, Maureen, died of COVID-19 in January. There has been so much loss over the last year, as we've heard. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca Coming up after your regional update,.

WOMAN: The two funeral homes that I have worked with are in small, close-knit communities. And usually, everybody piles out. It's not uncommon to have several hundred people come out. And to be cut down suddenly and have to think about, look around your neighbours and your family, that's so painful.

MATT GALLOWAY: How one funeral director is helping families grieve during the pandemic, and she says that music helps. We'll tell you why coming up in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One.

[Music:Theme]

Funeral director on grief in a time of physical distance; and does the Crown have a place in Canada anymore?

Guest: Kathleen Newman-Bremang, Shachi Kurl, Niigaan Sinclair

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, my name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". This week, we're bringing you a special series, "COVID in Canada, One Year and Counting". It's been one year since the World Health Organization declared a global pandemic. Everything changed, from the way we work, to the way we celebrate, to the way we grieve. In Nova Scotia, some families are getting support from a funeral director and her music.

[Music: A song played on acoustic guitar]

TARA SPENCER: [singing] In the hard grey chairs at the doctor's office. Me and a man with a terrible cough it's 11:00 a.m. The doctor is late. Nothing there to do but wait. He handed me a wrinkly business card, told me of his young years working hard, small engine repair tractors and mowers. Back in the days when the world moved slower. He had loved every minute of a simple life, a lot less simple since he lost his wife. She had died last June. Her lungs full of cancer. He took all the tests. He was waiting for answers. His hands were shaking. He looked so nervous as he handed me the card that said at your service.

TARA SPENCER: I'm Tara Spencer. I work in Windsor, Nova Scotia, as a funeral director and as a musician and songwriter.

TARA SPENCER: [singing] At the funeral home, when the paperwork came. I remember the card and I remembered his name, the obituary short, no next of kin.

TARA SPENCER: Well, it's easiest to say that my job at the funeral home is my steady job, and playing music is me running off to join the circus.

TARA SPENCER: [signing] Workers from the home where the old man lived. Sympathy cards with nobody to give.

TARA SPENCER: My work as a funeral director had scaled back a bit in 2019 because I spent so much time away touring, playing music in different places. And I thought I would come back and settle into my day job after that in 2020. But when the pandemic started, both of those roles changed dramatically and very suddenly. And you know our ability to gather, whether it's for music or for funeral services, those things changed overnight. It's hard for me to say the loss for me personally because I see the loss around me so much. That's what I feel. Not just the loss we're used to seeing in the funeral home, but that simple need for people to get together, whether it's a celebration, a joyous thing, to... to share music or that acute need to get together to grieve and show our empathy and our caring for each other. I saw both of those things not have a place all of a sudden. It's very easy to be moved by that loss.

TARA SPENCER: [singing] We carried him down to where the grass was born. His wife and his sons' names carved in stone as we shovelled the grave, a shovel of dirt. I remember the card with words at your service.

TARA SPENCER: The instinct, the reason we get together for a funeral service, I think in part is because we don't always have the words to express to each other. It's not so easy to write a message or make a phone call, but there's something about being present in the room together, just holding that space, holding a hand, shaking a hand, giving a hug. That is such a simple expression of our love and showing that we care. We see that, you know, at funeral services, that instinct to give the hug. It's hard to fight. My heart goes out to families who are dealing with the restrictions on the number of people you can invite. You know, the two funeral homes that I have worked with are in small, close-knit communities. And usually, everybody piles out. It's not uncommon to have several hundred people come out for a routine... not routine, but your average funeral service. And to be cut down suddenly and have to think about look around your neighbours and your family when all your family lives so close to you and decide, well, you know, these grandkids may not be able to come. That's so painful and hard to do. And it's contrary to the nature of why we have these community gatherings in the first place.

TARA SPENCER: [singing] I come to the garden alone. While the dew is still on the road.

TARA SPENCER: A beautiful hymn called "In the Garden", which I think is actually the most fitting for this particular time. I walk through the garden alone. And it is that strange juxtaposition of hearing that hymn sung in a room full of people singing about this solitary experience. And that, I think, is very poignant for this time in particular, walking through the garden alone. And I look forward to the day when we can all sing it together again.

TARA SPENCER: [singing] And the joy we share as we tarry there. None other has ever known.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tara Spencer is a funeral director and musician in Windsor, Nova Scotia. Still to come this week as part of our series, we'll get a glimpse into life at a long-term care home where residents have been vaccinated and are beginning to feel hopeful. We'll also hear about some of the major life changes that Canadians have made in the past year. And Thursday, we open up our phone lines so you can tell us how you are doing one year and counting into this pandemic.

[Music: Ambient]

MATT GALLOWAY: You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

MEGHAN MARKLE: So we have in tandem the conversation of he won't be given security. He's not going to be given a title. And also, concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born.

MATT GALLOWAY: Unless you have been living off the grid for the last couple of days, you've probably heard snippets of that conversation between the Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Oprah. In it, Meghan and Harry spoke of racism at the palace, insensitivity to mental health crises and a family institution known as "The Firm". All of this is leaving some Canadians wondering what place, if any, the monarchy should have in this country? To tackle that question, I'm joined by our national affairs panel, Kathleen Newman-Bremang is senior editor at Refinery29 unbothered. Shachi Kurl, president of the Angus Reid Institute. And Niigaan Sinclair is an Anishinaabe writer and professor and columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press. Good morning to you all.

All: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kathleen, aside from the opportunity to see Oprah in full flight. [Kathleen and Matt chucle] Why was it that you tuned in on Sunday night to watch this?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Oh, I mean, I love [connection breaks] and hate the monarchy. [laughing] that was mainly it. But yeah, you're right that, you know, we haven't seen an Oprah sit-down in a very long time. So that was a big draw. But I think that we have... if you love pop culture like I do, or write about it like I do, there has been an intense interest in Meghan and Harry and their life. And this is finally the chance to hear them tell their side after years of public scrutiny and extremely racist narratives by the U.K. tabloids. So the draw was just them being able to speak without the shackles, let's call it, of The Firm.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shachi, for you, what was the draw?

SCHACHI KURL: Oh, I mean, it's pandemic life and thrills come cheaper and cheaper. [laughing all around] But also, I think... I think you just nailed it by talking about the celebrity factor and the pop culture factor. And that is always so fascinating when we're dealing with Canadians watching the royals. Because on one hand, the royal family and the institutions that put the royal family at the head of our government would have us think that, you know, this is an organization, a family that revolves around public service and duty and connection to Canadians. But the fact of the matter is, especially with the younger royals, the vast majority of Canadians view them not as working members of this constitutional monarchy, but as celebrities. And that in data, I can tell you, is what is really starting to be a driving factor around the erosion for the relevance and the support for monarchy in this country long before Sunday night's train wreck.

MATT GALLOWAY: All right. I want to talk about the erosion of support, as you say it, in a moment. Niigaan to you, though. Why did you sit down in the midst of a pandemic to watch this?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: I didn't... I didn't want to, and I fought tooth and nail to try to stop it from watching it, but unfortunately, my family wanted to watch it. And and so I came in the room as it began, and then found myself kind of gripped like everybody else in watching this unravelling of the royal family. And I've been, if anything, interested in this issue because of the recent decision by Barbados to... to remove the monarchy as their head of state.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: And, of course, the constant discussion around the role of the monarchy within this country and, of course, within Indigenous communities. What what does that mean? I mean, it was very interesting to be surrounded by Indigenous peoples in my family who are all interested and engaged and wanting to watch this. And and I, too, got caught up in it, even though I had very little interest and found myself the next day, searching, Googling, watching, trying to understand about why people were so surprised that the most racist institution of the world, the Crown, is somehow racist?

MATT GALLOWAY: The most racist institution of the world?!

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, there is no... I mean, name me an institution that has brought more violence, colonialism and particularly genocide against people of colour across the world then the British monarchy. And the fact that the world is somehow surprised that there's racism within that family surprised me most of all.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given that, I mean, what was it like growing up? I mean, did you have any relationship or any interest in the royal family growing up within an Indigenous community?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Oh, absolutely. You know, Indigenous peoples, particularly here in Manitoba, have deep reverence for the Crown. I mean, the first numbered treaties were negotiated with the Crown. So if you go to First Nations in Manitoba, particularly, you know, Cree communities is what I'm thinking of, ones I have most experiences with, you'll find a copy of Hello magazine in people's houses. You'll find a picture of the Queen in people's houses. You'll find people tuning in regularly to, you know, Prince Charles and Diana, and the Queen. And there's a great respect for that because of our relationships via treaty. At the same time, there's this vexed relationship with the Crown because, of course, this is the force that has erased us from territories. Back in 1763, when King George the third said everything is mine, and that created the basis for Canada. There has been a long, complicated relationship between Indigenous peoples and the Crown. However, there is this kind of belief within Indigenous communities of the honour of the Crown. And even though the Crown has never acted honourably with us, we still have this belief that the Crown will act honourably. And so, therefore, we have this kind of reverence and respect for the royal family in lots of different contexts. So, you know, when it came to people watching this interview, there is a great deal of interest.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kathleen, let's talk about the issue of race. This is the revelation that... that somebody within The Firm had questioned how dark the complexion of Megan and Harry's son might be. Oprah, I mean, it's now become a meme, was shocked in many ways by that revelation. You wrote what got her, her Megan, into the family, her acceptable Blackness and beauty is also the reason that she was forced out of it. Tell me more about that?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at Meghan Markle, this is... she calls herself a biracial woman. She is a mixed-race Black woman who is very beautiful and light-skinned, and those things that I think have shielded her from antiBlack racism in the past, which is why she had this faith in this institution, is the exact thing that they couldn't handle. You know, she is the most palatable Black woman you could find. And all she really wanted was acceptance and love from this white institution. But they are, as we've said, historically racist and colonizers. And they were so revolted by her Blackness that they couldn't do that. They couldn't accept her. And none of this would be happening if they did. And so, yeah, I think there's a difference. We... we've talked about being shocked or surprised. And I think there's a difference between being shocked at these racist things were perpetuated by this family and this institution built on colonialism and racism. And being disappointed that they exist or being shocked that Meghan and Harry chose to share these things.

MATT GALLOWAY: Were you surprised that... that they themselves raised this issue, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Was I surprised? Yeah, I think I was. I was not surprised that this family would say that, you know, I think that it's ridiculous that they looked at an infant and was concerned, and that's the word that Meghan and Harry used, about his skin colour or how dark he would be. But I was frustrated at how familiar it felt. You know, I've experienced colorism as a... as a Black woman. I also worked in white spaces and had faith in white institutions until they let me down. And I think that Meghan is experiencing that maybe later in life than Black people who are darker than her. But, yeah, it wasn't... it wasn't surprise. But I think that if I stop being hurt or revolted by racism, then that's when I lose hope. And so I would hope that I'm always going to be somewhat shocked and hurt and frustrated when I hear things like this.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shachi, the shock of those comments and how they have resonated has again led people to ask what the place of the monarchy is in this country in the 21st century? Before the interview aired, Angus Reid conducted a number of polls about how Canadians feel about the monarchy. What did they show?

SCHACHI KURL: Yeah, it's something we've been tracking over time. We're now to a point, you know, pre-interview, Matt, where only one-fifth of Canadians felt that the royal family was as relevant as ever. The vast majority say it's either losing relevance. The majority say it is no longer relevant at all. We're seeing now really cratering levels for support for Queen Elizabeth, the second to remain as monarch. We've... we've usually seen pretty high levels of support for her personally. It's... it's more the institution in those coming after her that people feel a little more equivocal about. That's no longer the case. And the really telling number for me, because I've been watching these data over the last several years, is the fact that now just under one-third of Canadians say that Canada should remain a constitutional monarchy for generations and generations to come. So that says to me that 50 years from now, 100 years from now, the ability for the monarchy to make the case to Canada that, hey, we should stay here beyond the fact that changing our Constitution would be a tangled mess, and no one really wants to get into that. Notwithstanding that, Canadians are really not feeling the connection, the relevance, the majesty or the point of it in the way that they used to, in a way that, you know, in our parents time would have been unfathomable.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you wonder whether, Niigaan, you raised the issue of Barbados. Last year, the government of Barbados decided that it would remove Queen Elizabeth as head of state. Do you think that people, in light of what they saw on Sunday, are they looking to Barbados as a point of inspiration, do you think, Niigaan?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Well, Canadians may not feel a connection to the monarchy, and particularly the interview on Sunday certainly unveiled how irrelevant the monarchy is, but how also how intertwined it is with the culture in Britain, particularly with the media. I mean, we may not be connected to the monarchy. But I can tell you that people are even less connected to the idea of a constitutional discussion in this country. If you look at Barbados, I mean, they're in a position in which there's a great deal of public support to remove the monarchy, to remove the shackles of colonialism and to sort of sort of turn the page into a country being an autonomous entity. And if you look at their history, it makes sense. This country... to remove the monarchy within this country, first off, has very little public support other than to say that, you know, once you bring up the spectre of Meech Lake and Charlottetown, people don't want to get into a constitutional fight. They know how divisive it is. They know that the issue of Quebec is still lurking. And... and, you know, particularly when it comes to Indigenous peoples, if there is a constitutional debate, I can tell you that there's going to be radical changes in terms of the way Canadians live their everyday life. And they're going to have to face that reality. I'm not sure the public's ready to do that.

MATT GALLOWAY: How... how... how so?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: You can't simply remove the monarchy from the country because there would be a tremendous vacuum. What would happen would be that you'd have to negotiate the foundational documents that have led to the royal proclamation, which is that the Crown has a relationship, a contractual legal obligation to First Nations in relation to the treaties. So if you don't have something to replace that, that means that the treaties have to be negotiated. And in that case, 100 per cent of Canadian territory reverts back to Indigenous control. And I don't think this country is ready to face that reality. And the Supreme Court has said that. So the Supreme Court has said that Indigenous land title predates Canadian title. Therefore, we would have a huge constitutional issue in relation to Indigenous claims to territory. So you can't simply just remove the Crown outright just because you have a feeling, particularly around the monarchy. You're going to have to renegotiate some of the major constitutional foundations of the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to play something from yesterday. After this interview aired, before it aired in the U.K., the political and women's rights activist Shola Mos-Shogbamimu joined Piers Morgan on "Good Morning Britain" to discuss the Harry and Meghan interview. And it got hot.

SHOLA MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: What kind of grandmother would be so close to her grandson, Harry, but then not use her power and influence as Queen to protect them from the racist media coverage? What kind of grandmother would protect her own son, Prince Andrew, from the potential crime of raping a minor, but we'll do jack all to protect Harry and Meghan. And then you sit there humming on about how the royal Institution is not racist. Are you out of your godforsaken mind? Listen, you might learn something. The royal family as an institution is rooted in colonialism, white supremacy and racism. The legacy is right there.

MATT GALLOWAY: Prince Andrew has denied those allegations. But it speaks in many ways to the complicated relationship that a lot of people, not just here in Canada but elsewhere, have with the Crown. Kathleen, can an institution that might be steeped in racism, that still seems to be racist, can it represent Canada in 2021?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: No, absolutely not. I mean, I love that clip. She was just spitting facts there. And I think that, you know, if you believe Meghan, and I do, she laid out very clear examples of racism by The Firm and by the family. We already know the history of racism and colonialism. But if you are trying to ignore all of that and you just want to go based on 2021 and what this family is and who they are now. So if you believe Meghan, and you believe the fact that they wanted to refuse Archie a title and security, that they didn't protect her from vitriol from the tabloids like they have done with Kate and with Andrew, for example. And the most infuriating part, which we have talked about, which they were concerned about Archie's skin tone. I don't know how you hear all of those examples and not think that this institution is archaic and should be abolished. I don't know how you hear a mixed-race black women talk about how she was having suicidal ideation, and she went to the monarchy for help, and they did nothing. I don't know how you hear that and not understand that this institution is rooted in white supremacy.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is the way... is the way forward, though? If, to Niigaan's point, I mean, untangling that, you know, unscrambling the omelette, as they say, is incredibly complicated. You have to have all the provinces agree on this, and good luck with that. What do you do in the wake of that, Kathleen?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: I mean, just because it's complicated or it might be hard doesn't mean we don't do it. I think the reason why we continue to exist in a society that is rooted in white supremacy and hold on to these archaic institutions is because people don't want to confront the hard truths or the fact that, hey, maybe all of it needs to be dismantled, but I don't think that's a reason not to.

MATT GALLOWAY: Schachi, what do you do? I mean, is there any political appetite by the Liberals or any other party, and not just in the wake of this interview, about rethinking this country's relationship with the monarchy?

SCHACHI KURL: There is... there is no political leader in this country in 2021 that has the gumption to take this on. I think that is going to require, if it goes there, generational change, and maybe not one generation, but two generations because we'll need to hear the kind of voices and... and comments that that Kathleen and Niigaan are saying, not just on... on national panels, but in houses of parliament and houses of legislature in order for... for that to be furthered. But, you know, let's be very, very clear. The only reason in the next 25 to 50 years that the royal family will stay where it is, and the monarchy will stay where it is and continue its place in Canada is not some flag waving from the heart feeling of connection. It will be literally constitutional inertia. This is... this is just... you know, it takes me back to to Diana. It takes me back to the coverage of her death. And watching that as a much younger person and... and really thinking, oh, well, it's incumbent on the royals to change and modernize. And we've spent a lot of time in the last 48 hours talking about how it is now incumbent on the royals to change and modernize. And that really seems to be coming very, very slowly. In the meantime, you've got demographic shifts in this country. You've got in migration and immigration shifts in this country to the point where fewer and fewer and fewer people claim a connection either to the Commonwealth or to England or to any sense of connection to the royals.

MATT GALLOWAY: Niigaan, what do you see as the way forward, given... given the obstacles that you very clearly laid out?

NIIGAAN SINCLAIR: Yeah, just to add to Schachi's you point there, when the security was removed from Harry, the RCMP very happily stepped in to... to support the royal family. And, of course, the RCMPs job is to provide support and security. But going above and beyond is, you know, when the forces of this country are interested in supporting the royal family, certainly there's evidence that it's a much more larger issue and an institutional issue that goes across the Commonwealth. The way forward is this, Indigenous peoples in particular, and I think people of colour, racialized people across the world have been dealing with violence for centuries. And in this country, over 150 years. And regardless of the draconian controls that the royal family has placed upon Indigenous communities, we have thrived regardless. We've simply worked beyond, undermined and then worked through the law to be able to advocate for our claims to prove our sovereignty and our own independence and autonomy and to frankly, the idea that we have to somehow wait for the royal family to change. I think that the world is already changing, as has already changed. And has left the royal family behind. I completely agree that the royal family is irrelevant. It has very little impact. And for instance, the governor-general has no role within this country other than ornamental and symbolic. However, there is this tradition element, and there is this visual element within the country that people understand that the governor-general and the Queen, the Crown, have a sense of tradition, have a sense of the history of this country. And I think that Indigenous peoples don't want to leave that behind. They don't want to leave those relationships behind that have been made the foundation for our history. But there's also a legal question, and I think people can simply just move beyond that.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to speak with you all about this. And it speaks to, I mean, a celebrity interview, but the complicated conversations that come out of an interview like this. Thank you all for being here this morning.

All: Thanks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kathleen Newman-Bremang, senior editor at Refinery29 unbothered. Shachi Kurl, president of the Angus Reid Institute. Niigaan Sinclair, Anishinaabe writer, professor, columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press. Your comments welcome as ever. You can email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. In the meantime, that's it for us this morning. I'm Matt Galloway. "q" next on CBC Radio One. This is "The Current". We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Theme]

March 9, 2021 Episode Transcript

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