Scientists across the world are getting creative in an effort to fight COVID-19

Guests: Nevan Krogan, Matthias Gotte

MG: Well, there is a lot of hope riding on possible treatments for COVID-19. US president Donald Trump has shown a lot of enthusiasm for some of them in recent days. However, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the United States, and President Trump's go to expert on this file, has been a bit more cautious, leading to a little bit of a back and forth between the two men.

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VOICE 1: I agree with the doctor, what he said, may work, may not work. I feel good about it. Still, it is just a feeling, like you know, smart guy.

VOICE 2: I'm not disagreeing with the fact anecdotally they might work, but my job is to prove definitively from a scientific standpoint that they do work. So I was taking a purely medical, scientific standpoint and the president was trying to bring hope to the people.

MG: The drugs that those two men are talking about there, hydroxy chloroquine and chloroquine are normally used to treat malaria and lupus. Today, labs in New York State will begin testing to see if they can be used to treat COVID-19. The trials are part of an urgent international push to find a way out of this pandemic. Nevan Krogan is a molecular biologist participating in that push. He's director of Quantitative Bioscience Institute at the University of California, San Francisco. He's from Regina. And he joins us now. Nevan, good morning.

NEVAN KROGAN: Hi Matt, good morning.

MG: How would you describe the sense of urgency within the research community that you're part of to try and figure out some way out of this COVID-19 pandemic?

NEVAN KROGAN: Well, when this virus initially came online in January, we started to study it in my group and I had a couple of people working on this. In middle of February when I realized that this was spreading in the community where it could not be tracked. I realized it was going to be everywhere and I also realized that our university was going to be shut down. So I got to the lab and I told everybody, we've got to stop everything we're doing. And we got to focused exclusively on studying this virus. The 25 people in my lab have been working around the clock over the last month and even more excitingly, 22 other laboratories at UCSF stopped what they were doing it as well. And in an unprecedented way I would argue, hundreds scientists have been working together studying this virus. Not just in San Francisco, but we've been collaborating with scientists in New York and Mount Sinai Hospital and institutes in Paris. Both of those places have the virus working in their lab, growing in their lab and we even generated a map of how coronavirus hijacks and wires on cells over the course of the section. We're making predictions about drugs and then they're testing as we speak and the first set of results should be coming in the next couple of hours.

MG: Couple of things there. One is you told your people to stop what they were doing. That really speaks to the sense of urgency that you feel.

NEVAN KROGAN: Yeah, absolutely because myself and a group of us, we realized that we would not be allowed in the university for much longer. The data we were generating, the last piece of data was a few hours before our university was actually shut down. So that sense of urgency, I would argue, was warranted and right now we're working remotely, most of us trying to find a cure in collaboration with others around the world.

MG: Well, and that's the other thing, this collaboration piece. We've heard this a couple of times over the course of the last couple of weeks that people are working together in ways that perhaps they wouldn't have. What to you is most intriguing and exciting about that?

NEVAN KROGAN: Well, usually science is siloed and it's very individualistic. And the problem here is that science often just rewards the individual. One person wins the Nobel Prize. One person gets an award. One person gets a grant. And what a silver lining, in my opinion, that's come out of this is the realization we have to work together and I see silos being broken down. Silos across different laboratories at the same institute, silos across different institutions around the world, but also silos are being broken down between academia and big pharma. We're collaborating with Roche Pharmaceuticals, for example. And there's a realization that we all got to work together in order to come up with a solution.

MG: I had read it now I'll get you to explain this as simply as possible, but I've read in some ways that what you're doing is creating this sort of blueprint for parts of the human body that the virus could feed off of. And then figuring out ways that the drugs could work in that format. Explain actually what you're doing.

NEVAN KROGAN: Exactly. So there's a predicted 29 genes to be associated with the coronavirus, 29 genes or proteins. Well, in our cells, we have 20,00o, which cannot exist by itself. It needs our cells. It needs the genes and proteins in our cells in order to live. So what we did was systematically map all the connections between the 29 coronavirus proteins and our human proteins. And in total, we found out of our 20,000 human proteins that the coronavirus attacks 332 of these human proteins. And what we did was cross-reference these 332 human proteins to see if there were any other drugs that were on the market that target these proteins that were being used for another disease, so that we could repurpose them to try to see if they have an effect on coronavirus infection.

MG: What sort of drugs would be out there that could possibly be effective?

NEVAN KROGAN: So we found 69 drugs and compounds, 27 FDA approved drugs and the rest are in clinical trial or pre-clinical trial. And the majority of these actually are anti-cancer drugs that we are now trying to see if it has any effect on the coronaviral infection.

MG: We heard the president and his right hand man when it comes to infectious diseases, speaking about a couple of these different drugs, chloroquine and hydroxy chloroquine. Last night, President Trump called them a gift from God. What more can you tell us about these drugs? Again, he's been criticized for perhaps reading too much into the potential, but what else can you tell us about these drugs?

NEVAN KROGAN: Yeah I mean, so chloroquine, hydroxy chloroquine, they're very similar to one another. One's just a derivative of the other. And from the outside looking in, you'd say, well these are anti-malarial drugs. Right? This is against a parasite. That there should be no effect against a virus and this is what I've been telling people. However, if these drugs are having an effect on a human protein that the virus needs to infect ourselves, there could be a benefit. What we discovered, one of our 27 FDA approved drugs that we predicted would have an effect, one of them is actually chloroquine, because we found that it actually hits a human protein that we predict the virus needs. So indirectly I am now saying that there could be a chance here that chloroquine could have an effect because there's actually some science behind it now. But that being said, Dr. Fauci is completely correct. There has to be more testing. There needs to be more data at every single level. So we're just at the start of this in many ways.

MG: How often does this happen where researchers would look at old drugs and try and figure out a way to to repurpose them?

NEVAN KROGAN: Well, I think it should happen more. I think a classic example is actually Viagra. It was originally used to treat heart pain and then it was realized it had other beneficial effects.

MG: Indeed.

NEVAN KROGAN: So I think people just haven't looked. I just think people haven't looked and what we do in our institute is look across a variety of different disease areas, not just infectious disease, cancer and heart disease and what we find all these amazing commonalities across these diseases that scientists don't normally identify, because back to my original point, science is so siloed. They don't talk. Different scientists don't talk to one another. And what we're finding, all these great commonalities, it's the same genes being mutated in cancer that are been hijacked by viruses, the same genes being mutated in neurodegenerative diseases that are being hijacked by bacteria.So I think this idea of drug repurposing is a smart one that one should be looking at. And to me, this could be the easier fix for this coronavirus infection right now.

MG: You talk about scientists speaking to each other. While we've been talking. Matthias Gotte has been listening in. He's a professor and chair in the Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology at the University of Alberta. His research team recently published a study examining a different drug, an antiviral used to treat Ebola, a drug that has since become an international leader in the fight to effectively treat COVID-19. Matthias, good morning to you.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Good morning.

MG: You've been looking into this anti-viral drug, remdesivir. Is that how you say?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Yeah, remdesivir.

MG: Tell us a little bit about this drug and the work that you've been doing with it.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Yeah so remdesivir is a polymerase inhibitor, it inhibits the RNA polymerase of the virus and the polymerase is is an enzyme that synthesizes the RNA genome. So it's absolutely critical for the lifecycle of the virus. Without that enzyme, the virus cannot replicate and cannot spread. So when they say the virus, I actually mean it's pretty much every virus. Every virus contains this polymerase or this enzyme, these polymer raises. They differ from virus to virus. But these are important. These are prime targets for the development of anti-viral drugs. So if we look at HIV, we look at other chronic viral diseases, hepatitis B, hepatitis C, the drugs that are approved, most of the drugs that are approved to treat infection with these viruses actually polymerase inhibitors. So now remdesivir was discovered developed in the context of a huge effort to find something, some sort of antiviral after the 2014 Ebola outbreak. So it was further developed as an as an Ebola drug and it was actually tested in a clinical trial. Last year in the d-s.c outbreak for the treatment of Ebola virus disease. Now at around the same time, other scientists discovered that this compound is an antiviral with a broader spectrum of activities. So this compound also inhibits and chosen anti-viral effect against coronaviruses in cell culture and in animal models.

MG: It's already been used on some patients in the United States. Have a listen to Chris Kane. He's a 55-year-old man from Washington State. He contracted COVID-19 on a trip to Florida. Says that seven days in hospital, after he was there for some time, this drug remdesivir actually helped push him toward recovery.

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VOICE: I think within 48 hours, I was feeling a lot better than where I was. I think that remdesivir gave it the extra jumpstart or kickstart or whatever I needed to kind of turn that corner.

MG: Matthias Gotte, how is it that this guy was able to access this drug in the United States?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: So this is through the so called compassionate use program that is offered by Gilead and I should say like a day ago, they stopped this program because the demand is just huge. It exploded. And they they tried to find a different mechanism right now. So essentially, it was given to patients. So the clinicians, they were requesting the drug if a patient was really extremely sick and then eventually the drug was provided. Yeah.

MG: What's the timeline to make it more widely available?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Well, remdesivir is now in clinical trials and we are anxiously waiting for the results. So Gilead announced we can expect results in April. The drug is is tested now in various clinical trials. So these are the first wave of clinical trials of results that we can expect, but there will be others. So we got to be patient, unfortunately and as Fauci noted, it is very clear we have to wait for this evidence for these randomized trials to see whether a drug is working or not.

MG: Nevan Krogan, is that generally the timeline with most of the treatment options that are being explored right now? That need for patients and maybe a four or five month window in terms of getting some results back and then moving forward on the next phase?

NEVAN KROGAN: Well, there's a clinical trial being ongoing, I know, at the University of California in San Francisco and there's multiple ones ongoing in China as well. I think this will be taking several months to determine if it's useful. I really hope it is. Although one of the caveats of using an anti-viral approach is that the virus often mutates. You get resistance. This is why against HIV, you actually needed a cocktail of three different drugs to overcome this particular resistance. So as the virus mutates, if this drug treatment is working, it could be working less going forward. Therefore, I think we need more options in the future.

MG: One of the reasons why conversations like this turn people's heads at this time is, is because people are looking for some sense of optimism. Have a listen to the governor of New York State, Andrew Cuomo, talking about clinical trials.

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VOICE: We're also implementing the trial drug. We have secured 70,000 hydro chloroquine, 10,000 Zithromax from the federal government. I want to thank the FDA for moving very expeditiously to get us this supply. We're going to get this supply and the trial will start this Tuesday. The president is optimistic about these drugs and we are all optimistic.

MG: Nevan Krogan, New York has, as I say, need for optimism. That state is home to something like 5 percent of the world's COVID-19 cases and there are real concerns that the health care system there will be swamped in days ahead because of what is happening. How do you balance the need to develop treatment options quickly with the need to be safe, to be ethical, to ensure that all of the steps are taken before that optimism is realized?

NEVAN KROGAN: Yeah, I mean, it's a very good point. I mean, normally, on average, it takes a drug, it takes about six years to get a drug in to a person. So that's too long obviously in a pandemic. So the approach that's being discussed here on this program today is to try to use other drugs that are being used for other diseases. Can they be repurposed in a short period of time? Now the governor alluded to an anti-malarial drug and an antibiotic. Well, that doesn't make any sense with respect to fighting off a virus. However, as I said earlier, if these drugs are having effect on human proteins in host directed way, then there could be a benefit. And that's where more research is required to understand the molecular mechanisms behind how these drugs are having an effect. Both the anti-viral that you heard about before and these other compounds and other ones that we and others have identified. The more we understand about these, the quicker we can move to make them more.

MG: I guess the concern that some people have is the story that came out of the United States, a man died. His wife is seriously ill because they took some form of chloroquine on their own. And people hear these stories. Perhaps they might hear the enthusiasm of the president of the United States and they may act on their own. What sort of danger is out there when it comes to that Nevan?

NEVAN KROGAN: It's a huge danger. I mean, there's this open source publication, which is absolutely fantastic, where people can just put on their research without being peer reviewed. They're now, they have a special committee that just looks at the corner virus research papers. Because people and others are looking at it and say oh this could be a cure, let me take this. So there has to be that the people have to listen to the medical professionals and not listen to what's online or what somebody else had told them. So this is key to get that word out to people that know what's going on.

MG: Matthias Gotte, I heard you in the background there. What are your concerns when it comes to this?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Yeah, a couple of points. First of all, I think with regard to remdesivir, before it was actually considered for clinical trials, we need to understand that we had a lot of data, preclinical data. It was tested, it was tested in small animal models. It was tested in macaques and monkeys. So these were all published studies and in each of the studies, the authors could show an anti-viral effect. Our group came into play, we looked at the mechanism of actions. So we tried to understand, tried to explain the anti-viral effect. Why is it effective in these modeled systems? So all that represents like a body of evidence that justifies clinical trials. And for many of the other drugs that are tested to try and no clean included and also an HIV inhibitor, we just do not have that body, that large body of evidence. Yet these approved drugs and there is a logic behind it to use it, as Nevan pointed out. So these drugs are being tested turn lean in clinical trials. And in terms of the optimism also, I think we can be extremely optimistic in terms of all the efforts that are right now ongoing to identify new targets, to see how potent identify compounds, see how these compounds work in models systems. So there's an enormous effort in Canada. There are probably now 100 labs. The government actually provided rapid response funding for this issue. So there are about 100 labs working on these problems right now. So in a couple of months, I do believe that we have a bunch of other approaches to the development of new treatments.

MG: Nevan Krogan, we just have about a minute or so left. You share that sort of cautious optimism?

NEVAN KROGAN: No, I do. And I would extend, it's not just hundreds of labs in Canada, it's thousands of labs around the world. And one of the silver linings in this, in my opinion, is that I think we're figuring out a new way to do science. It's a new paradigm. It's a realization that one or a couple labs can't get this done. It's about breaking silos down across different laboratories in one institute, across different institutes around the world. And as I said earlier, between pharma, big pharma, which is usually interested in making money and academia. And so I think this is a new way to do science. I think we're setting up an infrastructure now that we can tackle the next pandemic. COVID-22 or 24 or whatever other viruses coming online because it is coming. So we need to be smarter and we need to have that infrastructure set up and I think this is going to force the scientific community to do that. And I think that's fantastic.

MG: Really exciting to hear about the work that you're both doing. Good luck and thank you.

NEVAN KROGAN: Thank you.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Thank you.

MG: Nevan Krogan and Matthias Gotte are two of the Canadian researchers looking into possible treatments for COVID-19. Nevan Krogan is director of the Quantitative Bioscience Institute at the University of California, San Francisco. Matthias Gotte is with the Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology at the University of Alberta. The CBC News is next. Coming up after that, all eyes are on the International Olympic Committee to see if it will postpone the 2020 Summer Olympics. This as Canada and Australia said they would not send their athletes to the Games unless those games were pushed back to a safer date. We'll speak with a couple of athletes and the head of the COC about that. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Canada says it won’t send athletes to Olympic games

Guests: David Shoemaker, Diana Matheson, Sage Watson, Greg Woods

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the hotline for Kids Help Phone is very busy these days, as many young people want to share their fears about COVID-19. In our next hour, we'll look at how you can talk to the young person in your life and help ease their anxieties about this pandemic. But first, Canada's journey to the podium is postponed indefinitely.

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MG: For weeks, the world has been watching and waiting for the International Olympic Committee to make a decision. Then late Sunday night, the Canadian Olympic Committee took a stand. That committee announced that it would not send our athletes to the 2020 Summer Games in Tokyo, even if the event proceeds as planned. Canada was the first nation to make that call. Australia soon followed, and many others, including Olympic powerhouses like the United States and Germany, have called for the Games to be postponed. Dick Pound, longtime member of the IOC, told USA Today that he now expects the IOC to postpone the games until 2021. This morning, the Japanese prime minister officially asked for the Olympics to be delayed by a year. David Shoemaker is the chief executive officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee. David, good morning.

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Good morning.

MG: Why was Canada first out of the gate here? Why did you want this country to be the one to make a decision?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: You know, it really didn't work its way into our calculus, whether we wanted to be the first one or the last one in terms of making this decision. At the end of the day, we just had it to think about what was most important for the health and safety of our athletes, their families and Canadian communities. And we realized the one thing we control is whether we send teams to games. And as a result, we made the decision that was in the best interest of Team Canada and Canada.

MG: But no other Olympic Committee, International Olympic Committee had made that decision to move forward. What was your deciding factor?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, the deciding factor for us was that we realized that we, along with others in the international community, were probably asking ourselves the wrong question. And it was no longer about whether the games could be staged four months from now, successfully and safely in Tokyo. The right question was whether Canadian athletes could train here at home safely for themselves, their families and their communities when it was running counter to all the public health advice that they were being given and we realized the answer was no.

MG: You often hear from the IOC about the Olympic family. What did you hear from that family when you decided to take this stand?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, certainly the reaction we saw in the broad Olympic family and I mean among Canadian fans, stakeholders in our sport and the government was overwhelmingly positive. That most people impacted by this decision have taken great pride because it represents not just our excellence in sport, but also our excellence and values. We haven't heard a lot from the International Olympic Committee itself, but certainly from the other National Olympic committees and particularly the ones that we pay close attention to, Australia, Great Britain, the United States, we've had a whole lot of support.

MG: You haven't heard a lot from the International Olympic Committee. You forced their hand in some ways. What do you think the conversations are like in Lausanne, Switzerland, where the IOC is held?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, I don't want to begin to minimize the complexity of the decisions that they must be trying to take here that I and I'm very appreciative. And I think all the Canadian athletes are very appreciative of the fact that the IOC confirmed that cancellation is not on the table. I mean, that means that the Olympic dreams of nearly 450 Canadian athletes are preserved. But, you know, the idea of postponing these games is a massive undertaking that they take seven years to stage and to postpone several months or a year is absolutely complex.

MG: How would you describe the IOC is handling of this entire situation, thus far?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, I would describe it as one where they're preserving the Olympic dream. That we all have been clinging to the hope of these Games. And I know that with the beginning of the outbreak of COVID-19, we all watched is different different businesses who had been forced to shutter different sporting events got taken off the calendar. And, you know, I work in the Olympic world and I thought, oh, my gosh, the precious games of Tokyo 2020 that so much time and effort and energy and money has gone into organising the hopes and dreams of an entire country and Japan. And I think that that the IOC has worked incredibly hard to try to preserve that dream.

MG: Last week, Hayley Wickenheiser, great Canadian Olympian herself called the IOC, these are her words, "insensitive and irresponsible" for forging ahead. What would you say to that?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, I have tremendous respect for Hayley. She's an iconic Olympian and has been involved in this movement far longer than I have.

MG: Do you think she's right?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well, I think that what she's realized is the same thing that we realise is that we are asking ourselves the wrong question and that the responsible question was, is it safe to ask our Canadian athletes to train today? You know, we're shuttering pools. We're starting gyms. The prime minister is telling Canadians and health ministers telling Canadians to socially distance, to stay at home. And we're putting our athletes in this strange spot of an unfair spot of telling them, you know, go out and still try to train for these games in July. And that was inappropriate and not just for them, but for the public health of Canadians.

MG: How much of this do you think has to do with money? That the IOC wouldn't pull the plug or even really consider seriously deferring these games because this is a multi-billion dollar enterprise?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: I don't think it has to do with money. I think it has to do with the incredibly complex organization that goes into these games and that we'll see. I have great confidence that we'll see these games postponed. We've recommended that they take place in the summer of 2021. By no means will that be easy, but we think it's the date where there's the greatest chance of the eradication of COVID-19 or at least that there'll be treatments and or vaccines in place. But it also gives a maximum amount of time to plan for the games in a responsible way.

MG: And if they don't happen by that time, if they say we're postponing them only by four months or something like that, Canada's not going?

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Well we're sceptical that four months is long enough. You know, we made this decision in complete concert, not just with our athletes commission, but with the full support and the consultation that our chief medical officer and a network of medical officers around the world and the World Health Organization, we'd rely on them if if there was a rescheduling four months from now. But everything that we see doesn't suggest that that's likely in the cards.

MG: David, good to talk to you. Thank you.

DAVID SHOEMAKER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: David Shoemaker is the chief executive officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee. Obviously, the people most affected by this decision are the athletes. Diana Matheson is a member of the Canadian women's soccer team, two-time Olympic bronze medallist, member of the Utah Royals FC. Sage Watson, Canadian Panamerican champion, specializing in the 400 meter hurdles, also a member of Canada's relay team. Good morning to you both.

DIANA MATHESON: Good morning.

SAGE WATSON: Good morning.

MG: Diana, what was your reaction when you learned that the Canadian Olympic Committee said that it would not be sending athletes like yourself to these Games if they happened this year?

DIANA MATHESON: Yeah, I think I'm also lucky enough to be a member of the Atheles Commission for the COC. So I was lucky or unlucky enough, I guess, to be on some calls and have some conversations about this issue ahead of time. And I think the most surprising thing to me once we were having this conversation at all is how aligned everyone really was around it. Everyone sort of agreed, you know, this pandemic that's happening isn't gonna be safe to have an Olympics in just a few months or even this year. And the safety of not only athletes, but our friends and family and our community, it just made sense to make the decision that we weren't going this summer so that it would take the pressure off athletes to continue training at that point. And then immediately after the decision is made, the same sentiment seem to be shared by almost all athletes out there, that that was the right decision, even though it's a really tough one.

MG: Sage, what about you? It's a tough decision. Were you surprised to hear of this decision?

SAGE WATSON: I was not surprised. I was expecting it. I was not expecting Canada to be one of the first teams to pull out, but I was not shocked by this decision.

MG: How did it sit with you?

SAGE WATSON: It was hard at first. You know, luckily, I heard it from my coach first, where I know so many athletes had to see it on their social media timeline. And I think that was the hardest thing for a lot of athletes to not be notified. You know, hours are a day ahead, but just to see it on Twitter or Instagram or wherever they may have saw it. So I think initially it was a little bit of a shock, but we all completely understand the situation. And I think the Canadian athletes are really backing this.

MG: Diana, it's interesting. We're learning this morning that the Japanese prime minister says that the head of the IOC has 100 percent agreed to a one year delay. The official decision apparently is going to come later, but that seems to be where things are going right now. You have a couple of different roles. One is a, you know, an official athlete representative, but also as an athlete, somebody who's been to these games. How difficult is it to accept the fact that this isn't happening this year? You build yourself up to this moment and then suddenly this moment isn't going to happen at the time that you thought it was going to be. How do you wrap your head around that?

DIANA MATHESON: I think I mean, maybe the Olympics is a little bit different, you know, in the day to day from what's going on for other Canadians this year. But I don't think we're too different than, you know, everyone else around the country this year. Things have changed. There's a pandemic. You know, that hasn't happened in my lifetime for sure, let alone other people's lifetimes. And it's just change the equation on everything. And of course, like it all feels like a bad dream. You can't believe the Olympics aren't this year, but given the circumstances that's happening, it's just the right decision. And like everyone else here, we're starting to adjust. And it was a relief in terms of Team Canada's decision, knowing we don't have to continue training to be ready July 24th. That would be a really, really tough ask and probably unsafe for people out there. So, I mean, we're going to adjust is what's going to happen and will adapt and we'll be ready for next year if I play.

MG: What does that adjustment mean? To your point, you don't have to keep training. There are other matches that you'd be involved in as well in the lead up to the games. What does that mean practically for your life?

DIANA MATHESON: Practically. I mean, if there was no pandemic right now, I would be in Utah. About half the team for Canada plays down in the U.S. in the league. So I would be heavily into pre-season right now, training, and then I'd be in my pro season and we'd be going in and out with the national team for camps preparing for the Olympics.

MG: And where are you now?

DIANA MATHESON: As it is now, I fortunately stopped by Toronto on my way down to the league this year. And then by the time I was forced to fly to Utah, things had already escalated. So I stayed in Canada. So fortunately, I'm home where I've been self isolated for last two weeks as we returned from France. So this is where I'll be for the next while. And as you said, I was adapting training here, but I mean, I'll probably take a step back and then we'll make a new plan shortly probably.

MG: Sage, what about for you? Emotionally and again, given the investment when you're training your building to this point and that training kind of leads you to that moment, what is it been like for you emotionally knowing that that moment isn't going to happen when you thought it was going to happen?

SAGE WATSON: Emotionally, I've been OK. I think I've kind of accepted it. When I saw other people's jobs, you know, like she mentioned, that other people's jobs have been taken away. People don't know when they're going to get back to work. So I think we're all in the same boat here as a world. We don't know when we're gonna get that chance to go back to work or to get back to our normal lives. So it's nice to be in this together as a unit, not just athletes going through this. It's everyone else. So, you know, it's hard. It's it's heartbreaking is knowing that I won't get to race at the Olympics this year. It's completely understandable. And we know that we'll get another chance to compete at the Olympic Games. So that's that's the thing that I think keeps us strong and that keeps us willing to continue on with this Olympic dream.

MG: Practically, what does it mean then for your training?

SAGE WATSON: Yeah. So I train in Arizona, warm weather climate cause I'm a 400 hurdler. So I live and train down in Arizona. And I decided, you know, when I first heard about the pandemic, I decided to come home to be with my family. And we live in southern Alberta, so it's still a little bit of winter here. But, you know, I'm doing the best. We live on a ranch. So luckily, I can go outside and be with the animals on the ranch. So I will get them outdoors time, but I will be continuing to train in my weight room and in my home, of course. And wherever I go, whatever I can possibly do just to keep my fitness up, because track and field athletes, we don't get time off. So it's a non-stop go for us. So I'll just be doing the best I can to stay training.

MG: I was going to say, do you get to take your you know, put your feet up a little bit and take the foot off the gas pedal a bit, given that the deadline isn't right in front of you anymore?

SAGE WATSON: I actually really won't be. Of course, I won't be doing very technical stuff like hurdle stuff and getting ready to race. But I'll still be training hard because I know that this training cycle needs to occur so that, you know, whenever the Olympics are, may they be next year, I'm still ready to go next year for the Olympic Games.

MG: You both have said really interesting things about perspective. And I think we're all learning about this, that the things perhaps that we thought were really important, they might still be important, but in the grand scheme of things, they can take a bit of a backseat. What has that been like for you, Diana, not just in in the world of sport, in the world of soccer, but in life and seeing some of the things that you value kind of take a backseat?

DIANA MATHESON: That is an interesting question. I'm not sure I have a good answer there for that. I think athletes are usually, you know, they're forced to be resilient obviously when losing, but then, you know, injuries and having to adapt and, you know, maybe you're already away from your team, your routine, those sort of things, recovering. I mean, this is just wholly different from anything else. I know all of us have dealt with so far and it'll be interesting to see kind of how all this changes.

MG: What about you, Sage? I mean, how have you just cope more broadly with everything that's happening in the world?

SAGE WATSON: I think I've been able to cope more broadly just being home with my family and, you know, having their support. And they understand they're going through similar things, you know, as me not knowing what to expect next. So I think just being home with them has really helped me feel stable. And it really takes the stress off of, you know, not going about my normal life as a professional athlete, just being here with them.

MG: We will be cheering for you both whenever you make it to the Olympic stage. Thank you both for joining us.

DIANA MATHESON: Thank you.

SAGE WATSON: Thank you for having me.

MG: Diana Matheson, member of the Canadian Women's National Soccer Team. Sage Watson, a Canadian Pan American champion, specializes in the 400 meter hurdles and also a member of Canada's very fast relay team. The 2020 Summer Olympics look like they have been postponed for a year. This pandemic has also led to the shutdown of major sports around the world. Most of the leagues that you might follow are not happening right now. We humans though, are enterprising creatures and if the lack of televised sports is getting you down, well, the Internet has you covered.

SOUNDCLIP

[YouTube clip of Marbula One]

MG: Behold the spectacle of Marbella One, the latest series from the marble racing YouTube channel Jelle's Marble Runs. This channel has exploded in popularity over the past few days as people at home look for ways to stay entertained. And as we just heard there, yes, there is live commentary for the races provided by Greg Woods. We've reached Greg in Fort Dodge, Iowa. Greg, good morning.

GREG WOODS: Good morning.

MG: The pantheon of marble racing?

GREG WOODS: There is quite a pantheon. It's true.

MG: This I did not know. Tell me about marble racing and what is it for people who've never seen the videos?

GREG WOODS: It's going to sound absolutely bizarre. It really is one of those that you have to watch it to believe it. The way that this began was with sand marble rallies, as they called them. So basically marbles rolling down a hill into a serpentine trench that was carved out in this case over a sandhill in the Netherlands. But since then, it has expanded to, as you said, maybe the one which is Formula One style circuit racing around a track. So marbles are rolling down this track. That is it's a plastic track with different elements to it. And then there's a conveyor belt that actually brings them back up to the start finish line and starts the lap again. The other one that has kind of come in between those two is known as the Marble League, which used to be called the Marble Olympics. It's an Olympic style competition that spans some around 15 events over the last few years. Everything from sprints and high jump to kind of unique ones like an underwater race or a collision event or rafting.

MG: All done with marbles.

GREG WOODS: Correct. Even marble spectators in the stands.

MG: So how did you get it because you provide the commentary on this, how did you get involved in this?

GREG WOODS: So originally I had seen one of Jelle's videos posted on Reddit and it was a sand marble race. But at the time it was only using natural sound and little bit of light-hearted music in the background. And I thought, oh, this might be kind of interesting. So I got out a microphone and just as kind of a joke, I recorded myself calling it as if it were a serious sporting event. And people really enjoyed that for whatever reason and eventually that got back to Jelle and he reached out to me and said, would you want to do the commentary for all of our events moving forward?

MG: So what does it take then to get into the mindset of calling a marble race? How do you get into that zone?

GREG WOODS: You know, I've never really thought of it as getting into that mindset, because really it carries with it a lot of the same sorts of characteristics of of any sport where you've got underdogs and you've got great performances and, you know, a record breaking run or, you know, come from behind win. So when you're watching this, you know, outside of getting over the initial hurdle that these are marbles instead of people. Yes. You you kind of ascribe the same sorts of emotions to it. So because I know the fan base behind this and how big of a community that has become, I know that they're going to be rooting for it and that's kind of infectious toward me when I'm calling it.

MG: As you said though, you have to get over the hurdle of understanding that these are marbles, not human beings. Can you have marble underdogs?

GREG WOODS: Oh, absolutely. One team in particular that was having a terrible time in the last marble league came from out of nowhere in a particular race and ended up beating one of the favourites, one of the one of the teams who had been winning the whole thing and who are arguably one of the fastest teams out there. So that made pretty big news at the time. And these teams have a whole backstory behind them. They have developed a whole backstory. Yes. When originally all of these marbles are ones that Jelle himself had. But then over time he would say, fans, what should this team be or what should this individual marble be named? And then after that, you start to see the lower building. You start to see people who get really into it, who are, you know, talking about all this, how I imagined this is what the coach was thinking in this moment or what they were doing in their training or, you know, where they came from before. It's pretty astounding.

MG: You've mentioned Jelle a couple of times. Who is Jelle?

GREG WOODS: So Jelle is the gentleman over in the Netherlands who started this whole marble videos sort of thing. At least that caught my eye. Jelle is is the mastermind behind this. He and his brother Deon come up with the ideas and they actually create the tracks and they do the filming. Jelle himself has a form of autism and has always been drawn to the sounds and the sights of marbles. And it's always been a dream of his to open a museum over in the Netherlands just dedicated to marbles. And thankfully, he was recently able to do that. But they are the ones that do a lot of the back end work before it reaches the rest of of us, you know, who help out.

MG: And so when you get, do the commentary, you get a video, you get a link to the race, and then you just have to kind of bring your commentary to it?

GREG WOODS: Pretty much. Sometimes there are some notes about we're going to do so many heats and then this is how we determine who makes it to the finals or the semi-finals. Other times, if something particularly weird happens in the video like a streaker or a fight in the stands or, you know, an injury to one of the team members.

MG: And again, these are all marbles that you're talking about?

GREG WOODS: These are all marbles.

MG: OK continue.

GREG WOODS: I kind of have to run with that. So some of the amusement that you hear is absolutely genuine because I'm riding that roller coaster with the fans who are watching this for the first time, too.

MG: How many people have watched this?

GREG WOODS: This week especially, it has really blown up. For the Marbulat One, we ended up getting over 16,000,.

MG: 16,000 people watched this live?

GREG WOODS: Yes, they watched it live on YouTube. So over time, you know, we have seen the subscribers to the YouTube channel go up. I think we're up above 680,000 or something now. So it has been pretty astounding. The video that went viral on Twitter, I believe last I looked, it had something like 35 million views just on Twitter.

MG: Now, obviously, people have a lot more time on their hands these days because we're all stuck in our houses and we can't get out. What do you think else is going on here? Why do you think people are so dialled into this?

GREG WOODS: The world that this exists in online is a very different one than the sporting world that we're used to. It's pretty light-hearted. It's very good natured. It's that suspension of disbelief coupled with the central tenets of sports that that draw people to it. You know, just from a competition standpoint that end up creating this this very odd escapism from what we are used to and especially right now. I think some people need that.

MG: I think the views are going to go up and up and up as this continues. Greg, great to talk to you. Thank you.

GREG WOODS: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

MG: Greg Woods is the commentator for Jelle's Marble Runs. You can find them on YouTube. Jelle is spelled Jelle. Coming up in our next half hour, we set off to Calgary and to Yellowknife. And I'll speak with the mayors of those two cities about how they're dealing with COVID-19, the crisis in their communities and how they're preparing residents for a new way of life. Also later this morning, the president of your CBC will be here to explain the decision to suspend local TV supper hour newscast. It is a decision that has received a lot of attention. We'll hear more about the reasoning behind it. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music]

Canadian mayors discuss their community challenges and teamwork in the face of the pandemic

Guests: Andre Picard, Naheed Nenshi, Rebecca Alty

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Enough is enough. Go home and stay home. This is what we all need to be doing and we're going to make sure this happens, whether by educating people more on the risks or by enforcing the rules if that's needed. Nothing that could help is off the table.

MG: Well, that's a tone familiar to any parents. The prime minister was more stern than he has been up until now as he reprimanded those failing to practice social distancing and pleaded for more Canadians to do their part. Will that be enough? Andre Picard is the Global Mail's health columnist, one of this country's leading voices on public health and he's on the line now from Montreal. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: Justin Trudeau said yesterday enough is enough. What did you make of what he said?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think that governments are their tone is getting a little harsher. They're realising this is serious. People don't seem to be taking this notion of isolating, of social distancing too seriously. We had those images of, you know, thousands of people on the beach in Vancouver, and they're very striking to think you're hearing this from all politicians. A similar tone yesterday from Alberta, Quebec, Ontario. So they want people to take this seriously.

MG: What did you make of those images from Vancouver? You say they were striking. What else would you say about, you know, the view of people, thousands of people out on beaches, out through parks, on a beautiful spring day?

ANDRE PICARD: Yes. So it's this notion that we have to the only way to stop this from spreading is that people don't interact. So it comes back to I was reading earlier this week about, you know, can you take a walk? Yes. Theoretically, you can take a walk, but you can't take a walk if everyone takes a walk together. So it's how do you find that balance? And I think what we saw in Vancouver is the balance wasn't right. People were putting themselves at risk and others at risk.

MG: Do you think the prime minister's reprimand was overdue? Should he have said something like that in that tone perhaps a week ago or a few days earlier?

ANDRE PICARD: I think all these things it's easy in retrospect to say we should have done this earlier, but I think you I think you have to keep some animal in reserve. So I think they've been taking it up a little gradually, and that's probably the way to go because you don't get everyone's attention at once. So I think this is ramping up. So I think it's appropriate. Some people are going to think it's too much already. Some people think it's not enough. It's really hard to find that balance.

MG: Just the last point on this, you have written that it's time to, "bring the hammer down." What are you calling for?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think we need we saw since I've wrote that what happened yesterday in Quebec and Ontario, essentially a shutdown of everything but essential services. I think we really need a clarity of message if we're in do this in two provinces, half the population. We've got to do things coast to coast. I think that's where lots of the confusion is coming in. There's all these jumbled mixed messages. In Nova Scotia, you're not allowed to have groups of more than five people. In Ontario, it's 50. Why? You know, let's have one set of rules. Let's be clear and, you know, tell people why this is important. And I don't think that's getting through.

MG: The list in Ontario of essential services of stores that are that our central business is a very, very long list and perhaps more comprehensive than people might have expected. Do we think that life will change much in a province like Ontario or in Quebec with that list out and with that order given?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think we want to minimize interaction movement, but at the same time, we want. We don't want to destroy the economy. We don't want people to suffer. So getting that balance, you know, a lot of people were sort of making light of the fact, well, the liquor stores are going to remain open in Ontario and Quebec cannabis stores. But, you know, were the Toronto public health officer had a really good response to that. And a lot of people in our society are dependent on alcohol. That's an everyday part of their life. They will suffer if they don't have it. We need to give people points of relaxation so it can't be old torture during this isolation. You have to find that balance. So I think if we're going to allow people to go to stores, having the liquor store open is just fine, but we don't want thousands of them there at the same time. So it's more about controlling movement rather than making people suffer unduly.

MG: The other part of this is the testing piece of this equation. How is Canada faring on the testing front?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, Canada was slow off the mark for testing, but it's really picked up in recent days. So we've now done more than 100,000 tests across the country. That's doubled in a few days ago. So it's really ramped up. The problem is right now is processing the tests. So we're testing all these people, but they're still waiting far too long for results. We're hearing stories of 5, 7 days to get your results, and that's defeats the purpose of testing. So we have, you know, testing is not just testing. It's easy to stick a Q-Tip in somebody's nose, but that has to go into a number of sophisticated machines. It has to be analysed. You have to call people and follow up. And then most importantly, you have to do the contact tracing. You try and find out who they've been in touch with for the last week or 14 days and then. Every one of them individually get them tested. It's a very complex and tedious and time consuming process, but it has to be done.

MG: Who isn't being tested now that should be tested?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, right now we're still focussing really on high risk people. So travellers. Mostly in Canada, we've done just travellers to date and then some high risk people like healthcare worker. It's important they be tested. Doing some what they call sentinel testing. So going into nursing homes and hospitals to see if people who weren't admitted for COVID-19 have it, because that's a real indication of real trouble. So that's important. What we're not doing is community testing. So we're not going out and doing random samples of you know, say a suburb of Toronto trying to figure out how many people have been infected. And that's where we have to go. You know, Dr. Tedros, the head of the W.H.O., said it very eloquently said you can't fight a fire blindfolded. So if you don't know where people are infected, you can't target them. So that's really important. But again, it's finding a balance. So you can't do this willy nilly. You just don't test everyone who wants to make them, you know, because they're worried well or whatever. You have to target and figure out how you're going to use that information.

MG: What would that do to. So pick that up then. If you have that data, what would we be able to and what would help? Public health officials be able to do with that data in terms of sharing it within their community, but perhaps across provinces across the country?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, two things. One is and we have some stories on this today, you'll see in the media about community acquired cases. This is almost half of cases now in Canada, our community acquired. So it's not people who are travelling to hotspots. This is spreading within our country. And this is really alarming. This is how it can spread very, very quickly. We know this from Spain. We know it from Italy. So when we know that there's community acquired Colvert 19 going on, we have to figure out why. What community is it in? Is it because everybody went to the same curling club and then we send out warnings because we can't test everyone? So if you were at this curling bonspiel on this date, stay home for 14 days so that the community stuff allows us to get a sense of where the hotspots are and and put out those fires. You know, you're going to hear this I use this analogy all the time of a forest fires. So forest fires burn. They tend to burn in spots in embers flare up. And that's exactly how infectious disease works. It's not one big flame that you have to attack. It's the embers that spread elsewhere that that are really of the danger.

MG: There's so much data that's collected on us in our daily lives. And one of the things that you wrote was that the tiresome chirping of privacy rules needs to end when it comes to how that data is being used. What did you mean by that?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I mean exactly what I was talking about. If five people are infected at a specific nightclub, we should be telling the public that if you were at that nightclub, you should isolate. We shouldn't say, well, well, we can't release that, because you might find out that Bob on Fourth Avenue was at the nightclub. I'm not saying release everybody's home data, but I'm saying release community information that we can use to protect ourselves. You know, nursing homes or several nursing homes we know in this country worth infections. And we don't really talk about them until there's 2, 3, 5 people dead and it's too late then. So we have to get over this notion that individual privacy is paramount. It isn't. If you look to a country like Singapore, one of the reasons they've really rein this in quickly is they use people's cell phones. You know, if I when I do this contact tracing that I talked about earlier, who can remember what they did for the last 14 days? Do you have any idea?

MG: No clue.

ANDRE PICARD: Most of us don't. But if they take, what they did in Singapore is they took your phone data and they had a really good idea where exactly where you were and who you talked to. And that's how they tracked it down. And they were relentless. Is that a violation of privacy? Probably. But it's necessary and it's a good trade-off in a pandemic.

MG: I can imagine a lot of people reacting with alarm to something like that.

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah. You know, we get our backs up about civil liberties and civil liberties are really important, but once it happens in their family, then people start saying, well, why didn't you track them down? You know, why didn't I know my neighbour was infected? Why didn't I know the curling club was a hotspot? There has to be a trade-off.

MG: Andre, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard, The Globe Mail's health columnist. We'll check back in with him regularly in the weeks ahead. A pandemic, by definition, is a widespread event. The way you experience COVID-19 though, really depends on where you live. Mayors around this world are balancing the health of their communities with decisions about what people can and cannot do. In Ontario and Quebec all non-essential businesses have been shut down. Canada's largest city also declared a state of emergency. Here's Toronto Mayor John Tory.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We know the number of COVID-19 cases continues to increase in our city and that the next few days are absolutely crucial in our ongoing efforts to slow down the spread of COVID-19. In making this declaration, I strongly encourage our residents to continue to take every precaution in protecting yourselves and protecting your fellow citizens. Stay at home, stay safe and only buy essential supplies, for example, once a week.

MG: I'm joined now by two mayors to discuss how their communities are coping with this crisis. Naheed Nenshi is the mayor of Calgary. Rebecca Alty is the mayor of Yellowknife. Good morning to you both.

NAHEED NENSHI: Good morning.

REBECCA ALTY: Good morning.

MG: Mayor Nenshi, we'll start with you. Calgary has already been through a lot an economic downturn. You know, the price of oil that is falling through the floor. What's the mood like in your city right now?

NAHEED NENSHI: Well, the good news is that people are very focussed. You know, we're you're right, being hit by a triple whammy. We're probably going to be hit harder than anywhere else in the country with the public health emergency, with the global recession brought on by the public health emergency. And with this ridiculous price war on oil between Russia and Saudi Arabia. But mostly right now, people from the premier through the community are really focussed on what they need to do individually. So, you know, Calgary was the first city to declare a state of local emergency. And by the way, I should give your previous guest, Andre Picard, his due. He and others have written with great clarity about the need to take quick action. And I know that that has been very influential on people across the country. And so we declared a state of emergency. We were the first city in Canada to do so. And I've really tried to measure that with the with the citizens with a few simple messages. You know, the first one is my mantra that I've been repeating for everyone, which is clean hands, clear heads, open hearts. It means that clean hands means not just wash your hands and sing happy birthday twice while you're doing it, which we've all learned to do. But it means take incredible infection control measures yourself. Don't act like someone who's trying to prevent getting the disease, acts like someone who already has it and doesn't want to spread it. Acts like every single person you come into contact with is your 90 year old grandmother. And if we act accordingly, we can start to use those famous words flatten the curve. Clear heads is the important one in terms of the question you asked, which is, look, this is like nothing we've experienced before. I spent a little too much time in my career standing in the emergency operations centre at a podium saying stern things. But this is different and it affects everyone and it's going to get worse. There will be more cases. There will be more serious cases. But what that means is that we must all be clear headed in every decision that we make. We simply don't have the luxury of panic or fear or frustration or anger. We've just got to get the work done. But the most important of all is open hearts, which is looking after one another. Physical distancing does not mean social isolation. Maybe we can't visit our elderly relatives right now, but that means we have to reach out to them even more. You know, phone calls, Skype, WhatsApp, face time, all of that. We need to do a ton of it, especially reaching out to people who are alone to help them understand that they might be physically alone, but ultimately, we're all in this together.

MG: Mayor Alty, Yellowknife now has its first confirmed case of COVID-19. How are people in your city feeling?

REBECCA ALTY: Yeah, I think, I guess one of the if you can call it a luxury, but that we were able to do a lot of things proactively before we had our first confirmed case. So seeing it across southern Canada, we were able to shut down our rec facilities and a lot of our local businesses stepped up and switched so that they were closing to the public and only offering take out of our online deliveries. So now that we've had our first case, we've seen businesses as well ramp up again and gyms are now closing. The chief public health officer as well, because we're on March break right now, you know, we do have a lot of families who left to go down south before the travel advisories were in place, before the federal government said discontinue non-essential travel. So on Saturday, she closed the borders, the Northwest Territories, and now it's only residents of the Northwest Territories and essential workers like people with food supply and stuff who are able to come in.

MG: What was the rationale behind that? Just briefly explain the rationale behind that?

REBECCA ALTY: The rationale was that folks are going to be coming back from March break and so we, you know, because before it was very much international travel that tends to be how the confirmed cases are coming. And with so much now happening in southern Canada, we'll have friends coming back from Ontario, back up north. And that's how our spread could happen. So now that the order came that whether it's international travel or domestic travel, if you've been outside the Northwest Territory, you need to self isolate for 14 days. So we do really hope that that can help slow the spread in the north because we all we are quite vulnerable with only 6 ICU beds in the whole territory, 13 ventilators. So we do have opportunities and challenges with being isolated.

MG: Challenges are being felt right across this country and in cities and small towns as well. Naheed Nenshi, homeless advocates in your city are concerned that not enough is being done to protect that vulnerable population. Bonnie Larson is a family doctor helping to track cases among those experiencing homelessness. She organized a protest outside a drop in centre on the weekend. Have a listen to her.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We are the only ones here doing this for the past five days since the emergency was called. It's surreal for everybody these days, but it's been shocking to us that we are the ones providing this response.

MG: Naheed Nenshi, you told my CBC colleague, David Grey, that this the issue of COVID-19 within the homeless community is your biggest concern. Why?

NAHEED NENSHI: It is, you know, on any given nights, one of our great failings as a community is we've got a lot of people living without homes. And on any given night in Calgary, there's about 4000 people living without a home. Now, imagine that they don't have access to a sink. They don't have hand sanitizer. They can't wash their hands. Traditionally, they have been living. Many of them sleeping shoulder to shoulder on cots or bunks in homeless shelters. And, you know, I've got south of two hundred cases here in Alberta. Once we get community transmission in that population, I can go to 2000 cases overnight, here in Calgary, I should say. So this is a big, this is a very, very big concern.

MG: Well, you heard the frustration.

NAHEED NENSHI: Dr. Larson's right.

MG: I was going to say you heard the frustration in her voice. She says it's a concern, but it's not being addressed.

NAHEED NENSHI: There's a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes that it has to move much more quickly and really reach the lives of the people who are doing the work on the front lines very, very briefly. We're creating a system and in the moving has started, we're removing lower acuity shelter people into hotel rooms that hotels are old, dead and empty anyway. And the hotel association has really jumped up and said that they're willing to help. So we're moving some people into hotel rooms where they have a door and a shower for the higher acuity. People who are remaining in shelter will be able to enforce more physical distancing and barriers even between the beds and to Dr. Larson's points, we have been fighting over to health very hard to make sure that the frontline workers have the support they need, whether it's screening people for temperature and determining if they're symptomatic or really just simple things like equipment for the frontline workers who are doing the work at the shelter. And that is underway now. And it needs to be underway very quickly. And I've got to say that I've been speaking with the premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, about this and he also believes that it is the top priority right now.

MG: But is this in part because, I mean, a homeless population, it can be a forgotten population at the best of times. That in the midst of crisis, thir needs and their individual unique needs may be pushed even further into the margins.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know that that absolutely can happen and let's be honest, one of the reasons that this has become such a big priority is not only to assist the people in that population, but also because there's implications on the broader health care system. And these are things we've got to work on. We've got to keep vulnerable communities safe in order to keep the healthcare system working for everyone.

MG: Rebecca Alty, the prime minister and we heard him yesterday, says the Canadians need to do a better job of physical distancing. Stay home if you can. Don't go out. Is it easier or is it more difficult to follow those guidelines in the north?

REBECCA ALTY: Yeah, I think one of the luxuries we do have is when your previous guest was talking about if you go for a walk, just make sure it's not on those crowded streets. We do have that luxury of having at least two meters between you and somebody else if you're going out on to some trails. I think the challenge, though, and it's a challenge across Canada is the communications around it. You know, this term social distancing. None of us had heard it a month before. So it's like, what does that mean? So really, it's now trying to break it down. What does it mean? It means only going to the grocery store once a week. It means only going for a walk with somebody in your household or when you're at the grocery store making sure you have those two meters. So I think we still need to do a lot of work on these terms that are new to folks and breaking it down.

MG: Do you think the message perhaps hasn't been as consistent as it needs to be? Part of what Andre Picard was saying, that people have different interpretations, they have different messages and that we just need somebody to say, this is what you can do, this is what you can't do.

REBECCA ALTY: Yeah. And that was another great point, because we get it a lot as local leaders and is but why is this happening? I read the news over in Nova Scotia and this is what's happening. Therefore, there's no trust in what's happening here, if over there is done differently. And we all have different legislative powers to, you know, municipal governments in the Northwest Territories declaring a state of local emergency may be different with the powers that Mayor Nenshi has by declaring a local state of emergency. And we have different responsibilities like daycares don't fall under the jurisdiction of a municipality in the Northwest Territories. So people will come to me and and say, why isn't the airport closed? You need to close it. Well, that's a territorial facility, but has a lot of oversight by the federal government. So it is confusing for the population. They just come to their local leader, because that's who they know. They don't care about who's legislative authority it lives. They just want answers and they want, it's a time of uncertainty and they're looking for some comfort andto make sure that all governments are working together well. So, yeah, I think there would be a lot of value in having kind of a bit more national standards going through.

MG: In Yellowknife, I mean, if you take a look at, for example, food on the shelves, has there been a change in terms of what's available on those shelves in the last week or so?

REBECCA ALTY: Yeah, no, it's definitely a challenge. You know, toilet paper, we saw that go off the shelf first like we did in southern Canada. Everybody falling into that, but then when it says you know make sure you have food for two weeks, if everybody is going to the grocery store on the same day, it was I think that first day, definitely there was not a single fruit or vegetable available. We're getting trucks every day. So food is coming back. But, you know, if you go to the grocery store and the grocery stores have been great, they've been putting in rations and they've been keeping the floors to show what six meters is. But you can go to the grocery store. And I think I've gotten twice in the past two weeks and there hasn't been any flour. So then you've got to try to find some different. Yeah. There is no fresh chicken when I went on Sunday. So then you have to look at the frozen pre-packaged stuff. So there's food, there's just not always the food that you are hoping for. So a lot of, you know, changing from taking just toilet paper, but now people are loading up on rice, beans. My concern is whether folks know how to cook with that stuff. So it could probably be some good online cooking classes for how to use all these staples that you've probably not cooked with before.

MG: Well they have time to look at those classes.

REBECCA ALTY: Exactly.

MG: One of the things and this is not just in cities, but right across the country is some of the things that perhaps we took for granted in the last couple of weeks have just disappeared. And some local leaders are saying that residents are learning to let go of the little stuff. Have a listen to Terry French. He's the mayor of Conception Bay South in Newfoundland.

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VOICE: Well, one of the things we've done, I believe, very well this time is that we've reached out to each other as mayors and we've had our staff from each municipality working together on a daily basis. We've spoken now multiple times. We've been doing this now for a couple of weeks or longer and we've been trying to be consistent across the region.

MG: In the last minute or so that we have I'll ask both of you and this goes back to the open hearts piece that Naheed Nenshi mentioned. Are you seeing people being a bit more forgiving or kind in your city, Mayor Nenshi?

NAHEED NENSHI: Hundred percent. You know, we were worried when we started to make decisions with people would think we were overreacting. In fact, people are saying now we're looking after one another. There was a there's a Facebook group that has over 20,000 members last time I checked. Which is just volunteers, people reaching out to one another, saying, I need someone's pick up groceries for me and 20 people saying, give me your address, I'm on my way. And that is really remarkable. These little acts are what really make a difference. You know, our previous generations were called upon to make huge sacrifices to save the world, frankly, our grandparents and great grandparents. And this is our time. This is our turn. But we're being asked to do something very simple. Stay home, be kind and you'll save lives.

MG: Mayor Alty, are you seeing people being kind in your community?

REBECCA ALTY: For sure. Yeah, they've a lot of those Facebook groups like Mayor Nenshi was talking about, the we have a care mongering Yellowknife, which is doing just that. If you can help, here's the opportunity. If you need help, put out the request and people are flying to help and like the mayor of Conception Bay was saying at the mayors across the Northwest Territories and chiefs we're keeping in contact. We really want to make sure that we're aligned and and because it's in the best interest of everybody, if one of us goes off, then we're going to create more work and can have conflicting messages, which is just a challenge for all our residents. But so far, everybody has been really good at pulling together.

MG: That's encouraging. And that's what we need to hear. You both have really important jobs at the best of times. But in the midst of a crisis like this, they take on added resonance as well. So take care of yourselves in the midst of all this as well. And thanks for joining us.

NAHEED NENSHI: Thanks very much, Matt. And thanks, Rebecca. You're doing amazing.

REBECCA ALTY: Thanks Mayor Nenshi.

MG: Naheed Nenshi's the mayor of Calgary. Rebecca Alty is the mayor of Yellowknife. Talking about what's happening in their cities. The best cities are made up of neighbourhoods. Each day we're hearing stories out of those cities have neighbours helping each other out. You just heard a couple of them from those two mayors. The Montreal singer songwriter Martha Wainwright held a balcony concert on the weekend. We'll take you to the newsbreak with a bit of that. Her version of Leonard Cohen's "So Long, Marianne.".

[Song: "So Long, Marianne" by Martha Wainwright]

There are options for young people dealing with anxiety amidst self-isolation

Guests: Zuheir Aqeel, Alisa Simon, Gili Adler-Nevo

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, they've got different symptoms and different stories. Three Canadians share their experience with COVID-19. But first, seeing this pandemic from a kid's perspective.

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MG: You don't need me to tell you it's a time of real uncertainty. Canadians are worried about their loved ones, paying bills, finding child care. We'll speak with someone from the Kids Help Phone in just a moment. They're seeing a huge spike in the number of young people reaching out. First, though, Zuheir Aqeel is on the line. He's 16, a grade 11 student in Toronto. Zuheir, good morning to you.

ZUHEIR AQEEL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How you doing this morning?

ZUHEIR AQEEL: I woke up today kind of tired because the earliest I've woken up to it, but generally I'm still pretty nervous and anxious for the coming time.

MG: What are you most nervous about?

ZUHEIR AQEEL: Mainly I'm focused or like I'm more nervous about my school and my parents and my friends, because like this was like the report card that was supposed to, like this is the term that is going to help me boost my report card marks. And this is what I was going to apply to universities with now. And like just to see like a month of that time just gone, It's kind of hard to believe because that means I have less time to work on my marks. And also, I'm pretty nervous for my parents too because they're both like really high risk like people. Like they have conditions that would make it worse if they got the virus. So it's always scary when we have to leave the house to get groceries and stuff, which is, you know, like sometimes we just have to do that. And also getting kind of angsty in the house because I really want to see my friends.

MG: How are you coping with all that? That's a lot on your plate.

ZUHEIR AQEEL: Well, I've try to just take my mind off things a lot. I've just been trying to, you know, just do normal things, just play video games, play games with myparents, watch TV. Just, you know, really trying to distract myself from what's happening, but it's always in the back of my head.

MG: The school stuff in particular, because, as you said, Grade 11 is a big year when it comes to your marks. What's your biggest concern around that? What are you most afraid of happening?

ZUHEIR AQEEL: The worst thing that could happen right now is that they either make me repeat the school year or they start it again, but like way later, which would just delay a lot of stuff and delay like university applications in grade 12. So I'm just really worried about like that whole time situation.

MG: Does it help to know that everybody's in the same boat?

ZUHEIR AQEEL: Yeah, that helps a lot because I know the university is going to be more understanding, but it's still pretty scary to just see this kind of stuff.

MG: Are you paying attention to this all the time? I mean, it's in the news and on our program and everywhere on social media. Are you paying close attention to this?

ZUHEIR AQEEL: Yeah, we always have, like, a new show running that's like showing like always like it's like hyperfocused on this pandemic and this virus. And even my social media too, like all like the people I follow, all they just talk about is this virus. So it's kind of hard to get away from it.

MG: I appreciate you waking up early to talk to us. This is a familiar conversation. It's in our household and it's in a lot of other ones as well. Zuheir, thank you.

ZUHEIR AQEEL: No problem.

MG: Zuheir Aqeel is 16-years-old. He's a great elevon student in Toronto. He's feeling anxiety and a lot of young people are. And that has led to a huge increase in calls to the Kids help Phon. They're already seeing calls double and they expect calls to continue to climb. Alisa Simon oversees the services for young people who call the line for help. Alisa, good morning to you.

ALISA SIMON: Good morning.

MG: How common, we just heard Zuhair talking about a number of different things. He's worried about the pandemic itself. He's worried about school. He's worried about his parents who are at high risk. How common are those sorts of worries in terms of what you're getting through kids Help Phone?

ALISA SIMON: Yeah. So when I was listening to Zuheir talk, it is very, very common what he is going through right now. As you mentioned. I mean, we have seen a doubling of our services and young people are talking a lot about general anxiety and fear. They're talking about school. There's a lot of young people using words like anxious and scared and worried when it comes to school relationships. And then one of the big things is isolation. Right? We are hearing from young people in really high numbers talking about what is it mean to feel isolated from their school, their coaches, their friends. And so all of those are themes that young people across this country are experiencing right now.

MG: What can you do for those young people when they call?

ALISA SIMON: So when young people reach out to Kids Help Phone, first of all, we want to thank them and honour them for the courage it takes, because for a lot of young people, they just bottled this up and try and ignore it. And that's actually true for not only young people, but adults as well. We also want to talk them through what it is that they're feeling and experiencing. Help them understand that a lot of those feelings are normal given the circumstances that we're in. And then we do what we call collaborative problem solving. So we start thinking through. Are there things that you could be doing that might make your life feel a little bit more normal or might help you feel a little bit better in this moment. And sometimes that is, you know, Zuheir mentioned playing games. So we've talked to people about, are you going outside at all? Do you have a backyard or can you walk around the block? Are you listening to the music that you like to try and help people remember those things that bring some joy into their lives and potentially bring some normalcy into their lives.

MG: Is your sense that these are concerns and their anxieties that the young people themselves are feeling that are manifesting within the young people? Or is it something that they're taking on in terms of the worries of their parents that their parents are concerned? They're at home, maybe they're not working anymore. Maybe they're worried about falling ill. Is it kind of being transferred down from the parents?

ALISA SIMON: Yeah, it's such a good question and I think that it's probably a combination of both. I mean, obviously, young people across this country are experiencing the same thing that adults are. We're seeing that we can't go out, we can't play with our friends or go to work. And they're seeing many of their parents and loved ones concerned about jobs. At the same time, young people are also experiencing their own fears, as you heard parent to talk about around school. They're experiencing challenges around not being able to leave their house. So I think it is a combination. But for a lot of young people, they don't necessarily have the coping skills or the outlets. And so, I mean, one of the things that we hear at kids help phone, 78 percent of the people that have reached out to us in the last week said that if we had not been around, they would have done nothing else to deal with the emotions they were feeling. They would have ignored it. They would have hoped that they went away. So for us, a lot of it is about letting young people know that what ever they're experiencing right now, there is a safe place for them to come, which is kids help phone. We're available 24/7. And we are there to talk to them, to help them through what they're going through. And for parents to reach out to our Web site, we have lots of tools and tips to help you talk to the kids in your life about what's happening.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mentioned in the introduction you've already seen a doubling of the calls. You expect those calls to increase. Nobody knows when this thing that we're in right now is going to end. Practically, can you keep up? Can you get to all the callers?

ALISA SIMON: So it's we have had an amazing response from Canadians over the last week. Last week, we put out a call where we said we need more volunteers on our texting service. We got out all over Canada. We have had over 2200 Canadians sign up to become crisis responders with Kids Help Phone. So we 100 percent need support from government, from donors to continue to be able to keep our doors open, but we have Canadians lining up and we are training 900 right now to be able to be there for young people. And we're in conversations, how can we increase our services? Because we're one of the only 24/7 services available in the whole country and certainly the only one for young people. So we have to be there.

MG: This is important work, Alisa. I appreciate you telling us about it. Good luck. Thanks.

ALISA SIMON: Thank you so much.

MG: Alisa Simon is with Kids Help Phone. The number for the National Helpline 1-800-668-688. Again 1-800-668-6868. And as Alisa mentioned, you can also go to their website kidshelpphone.ca. Dr. Gili Adler-Nevo is a child and adolescent psychiatrist who leads the Child and Adolescent Anxiety Clinic at Michael Garron Hospital in Toronto. She's been listening in. Doctor, good morning to you.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of this increase in anxiety? Again, those of us who are parents see this on a daily basis. You're hearing it not just from somebody who's on the receiving end, on the phone, but from a young person as well. What do you make of that?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: So I hear you talking about anxiety and I start becoming anxious myself. It feels like anxiety is in the air and it's everywhere and I'd like to start by maybe demystifying it a little bit. So we're all talking about anxiety, but what do we actually mean when we talk about anxiety? Is that OK?

MG: Absolutely.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: Yeah. So anxiety is mainly composed of two primary things. One is the physiological sensations. So that heart thumping, that tension in the body, butterflies in your stomach, all that, all that. Oh, those things. And the other piece are those negative thoughts that we heard the here talk about just a little while ago. And together they create this emotion, which is really hard to define. Right, because you need words to define an emotion doesn't have words in it. So that's what we mean when we talk about anxiety and anxiety is really closely linked to behaviour. And what it does is it makes us a void, which actually makes the anxiety worse. So I think the kid's phone line is really helpful in helping people not avoid and call and talk about their anxiety.

MG: Are you concerned by the increase? I mean again, some of this is anecdotal, but you're seeing that Kids Help Phone has a doubling of calls already. Are you concerned by that?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: I think that the situation is concerning, right? The word unprecedented is has become cliche by now, because we're really facing a situations that I think people have never faced before. So it's normal that we all feel anxious. I think that adults feeling anxious as well, parents feelings as as well. But one way is to look at the anxiety and embrace it and own it and know that it's there. And another thing is to be overwhelmed by it. And it's not through it everybody thinks it. I think that right now, when we're talking about things like this, it's sort of contagious. But a lot of people aren't anxious and it's that as contagious as well to be to talk with people and be next to people who maybe are taking it with a grain of salt or looking at it in the eye and knowing how to solve it is helpful as well.

MG: What do you mean when you say embrace it and own it?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: At the anxiety clinic, Michael Garron Hospital, we see anxiety as a good thing. It's not a bad thing necessarily. It's not something that we necessarily need to avoid. It's distressing. So there's a hump, right, that we need to face when we talk about anxiety, but after we pass that hump, it can be really, really helpful. It's a good thing. It's like pain, right? Without pain, we would have done all kinds of really unhelpful things. We would have put our hands in the fire. We would have jumped from tall buildings. But in exactly the same way, it's distressing for good reason. So it also helps us connect. I think you were talking about how communities connect right now. It helps us will be rules. It helps us be socially conscientious, all kinds of good things. It's not just a bad thing that we need to avoid. So we can talk about it. The conversation can be different about anxiety, I feel.

MG: What can parents do to help their kids through this?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: That's a really good question. So I think the best, the first thing is to embrace your own anxiety. Like we were just talking about and try to figure out if you're anxious yourself or not. And I think you asked the previous interviewee if she feels that there's a bit of contagion between parents and children. So, yes, so it definitely can happen. So the first thing is like the in the on the planes, the airline safety briefing that tell you to put the mask, the oxygen mask on yourself first before you put it on your dependent. So first, be aware if you're anxious at all. And if you are anxious, try to understand where it's coming from. And there are a lot of good resources how to help yourself with your anxiety. And in the model, coping with anxiety. So there if you act as if you're not anxious at all, that's not necessarily helpful, because then kids may think that it's wrong to be a to be anxious or that it's weak to be anxious, or if you are anxious and you give into the anxiety, that's not very helpful either. So the best ways to admit that you're anxious if you are and then model good coping with it.

MG: Are there things, sorry, continue. Go ahead.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: Yeah. There are a lot of other things that people can do. I can talk about this for a long period of time. But I think one important thing is that it's also an opportunity. Any hardship is an opportunity. I think that Churchill said never waste a good crisis. So this is this is a really good opportunity to get close to people around us, because when we're vulnerable together and we talk about it, we can really get close, though. So people ask me how to talk with our kids about anxiety. And a lot of parents have the experience that they ask their kids, what are you anxious about or how did your day go? And the answer is, well, you know, nothing happened. I don't know. Right? But the best way is to do things together. And then when you're having fun together and you're doing something that's not connected to anxiety at all, when you least expect it, then the real things come up. And then you can really have really good conversation.

MG: So you build that bridge before?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: Exactly.

MG: There is a lot of time that family is going to have with each other and I hope that some of what you've said makes that time less anxious, more productive and perhaps builds those tighter connections. Doctor, thank you.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: Thank you. I just want to add one more thing. Can I?

MG: Yeah, briefly.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: So I think that Kids Help Phone is really, really helpful. We have other resources on our website. So this is a completely different resource. We have resources for breathing retraining and breathing is a really powerful tool. It's medication we have inside us that we just need to access. So that's a possibility. And we're also starting to work with a CBT app, which if people want to use, they can put their names in on our website. It leads them through 12 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy with therapists support. So I think this can be really helpful in these times as well.

MG: Excellent. Just what's the website?

GILI ADLER-NEVO: It's if you just Google Michael Garron Hospital, Child and Adolescent Anxiety Clinic, you'll find us.

MG: Excellent. Thank you, Gili.

GILI ADLER-NEVO: You're welcome. Thank you.

MG: Gili Adler-Nevo is a child and adolescent psychiatrist in Toronto.

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MG: This is the current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Extended edition of The Current, which means we are mowing the lawn of one Tom Power.

TOM POWER: Wait did you say extended edition of The Current?

MG: Extended.

TOM POWER: First I've heard of it.

MG: Really?

TOM POWER: I've been on every day and no one's been hearing it?

MG: Sorry.

TOM POWER: You're here. You missed my 17 minute Rob Lowe interview. I can't believe it.

MG: The host of Q is here to bring you a little bit of Q and this is a time I have a big stack of books that I need to read and now I have a little bit more time perhaps to read those books.

TOM POWER: I got to tell you, Matt, I wish I was read more books. I keep on sitting down, you know, looking at a big stack of books on my table, being like, All right, buddy. Here we go, book time.

MG: And it's not happening.

TOM POWER: I watched an HGTV show last night about flipping a house. Matt, I don't own a house, nor am I good at construction. But there I was thinking I can probably do that. I should have an archway in my rented apart.

MG: You should.

TOM POWER: Yeah.

MG: Time well spent I'm sure. Now if you wanted to read books, you could turn to an expert.

TOM POWER: Don't get me wrong, I want to read books, which is something I said to our book columnist Jael Richardson. Jael is the director of the Festival of Literary Diversity, one of the literary festival folks impacted by having to cancel their events. And we talked a little bit about, well, her latest book, Recommendations If you're stuck inside, I got her to give you one discovery, one you might not have thought about reading and then one old fashioned one, one that you might have lying around the house that you might want to check out. And we talked a little bit about how, you know, how musicians are, you know, singing songs. Every 10 minutes they're singing a song on Instagram. You know, you can't open up Instagram without Michael Bublé singing Fever at you or something like that. But in this case, Jael talked a little bit about how authors are getting in on the conversation too.

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TOM POWER: Hi, Jael, how are you?

JAEL RICHARDSON: I'm good. How are you?

TOM POWER: I'm not. Thank you for asking. I'm doing too, not doing too bad. I'm not reading as much as I want to be.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Really? Really. I'm reading more. I'm great.

TOM POWER: I'm guessing like the book industry must be thriving at a time like this, right?

JAEL RICHARDSON: Well, I think in some ways I think all of us are looking at those piles we've had for like years and that's what we're all doing, so I don't know if the book industry is really like thriving on that. But yeah.

TOM POWER: I guess the e-book industry, too, because.

JAEL RICHARDSON: E-books, yeah for sure.

TOM POWER: Bookstores aren't really open, right? So people would have to be.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Well e-books and also audio books. I think when you're in the house and you're doing like chores and stuff, it's just a great way to, you know, do two things.

TOM POWER: So let's talk about making some lemonade. Hey Jael, shall we?

JAEL RICHARDSON: I know. Well, it's weird because I'm actually really I mean, I'm I'm the kind of person that loves to make lemonade out of lemons, like, you know, throw your lemons. I make some solid lemonade. And so I think it's a really exciting opportunity for us. I think in hard times like this, marginalized communities often suffer the hardest. People who are underprivileged, whether it's by race or by finances, whatever it is, it ends up being much harder on those communities. And because our festival is about those stories in communities. We felt it was really important to find a way to keep that conversation going. And because it'll be online, we're making it free. And so it means that more people across Canada are ever going to be able to see our festival than for what other lemonade is being made for literary agents out there. There's a couple of different things that people are doing. I know audible launched audible stories, which are children's books. They're available in English, German, French, Italian and Japanese. You don't have to have a log in. You don't have to have a code. You can just go in and access those stories on the audible website so you can go there and see that there's also some writers that are doing some fun things. They're having meetups and sort of logging on and then shutting down the video component and viewing it and writing. And so there's something called writing sprint. If you go hashtag writing Sprint on Facebook, you can go on and just write for a story hour with another bunch of other writers. And sometimes that connection and accountability is like really enough to get you going.

TOM POWER: Free too, right Jael?

JAEL RICHARDSON: For free. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

TOM POWER: You know, I'm thinking about that author to be that's home right now. I always dreamt about writing that great book, but never found the time. Finally, a home with a little bit of time on their hands. What are you saying to that prospective author to be right now?

JAEL RICHARDSON: I think it's a great time to to. I mean, I realized how much time we spent in transition, like walking to work, going to work, you know, transitioning to lunch, whatever that is. And, you know, those are times that we now have for ourselves. And so it's a really great time to schedule in some writing time and to make sort of a discipline out of it. That's what I would say to them, make it discipline a practise out of writing during this time that you can hopefully transition even after quarantine.

TOM POWER: And Margaret Atwood has been given out some Twitter recommendations, hasn't she?

JAEL RICHARDSON: Yes, she's been recommending some books. Mo Willems is a children's illustrator, has been on Instagram teaching kids how to doodle through Instagram, which I think it's really fun. And so, honestly, I've been saying you all along, creative folks, artists are saving us right now right on tech talk, wherever it is, it's dancing, it's music, it's writing, it's stories, it's drawing. These are all the things that are keeping us going when we're home by ourselves or home with our families.

TOM POWER: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I mean at home by yourself is a bit of a stretch these days for a lot of people. I know that people tune into Q quite often to hear you give book recommendations, you know, once one every two weeks, gives them time to read it. But I think during this time I'm looking for two things from you. One is a new book like a discovery book that people should pick up to read during self-isolation and then after that, I want like a classic book, a book that people have always meant to get around to that you think they should probably start to pick up.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Oh, that's a tough one. OK, so I think for like one that I've loved that I recommend a lot Is Erotic Stories for Punjabi Widows.

TOM POWER: Erotic Stories for Punjabi Widows?

JAEL RICHARDSON: Yeah, write it down because you'll want to remember it.

TOM POWER: I'll never be able to forget it.

JAEL RICHARDSON: It's such a good story because what I love about it, it's about these women who've lost their husbands and who start writing in secret, start writing erotic stories. They they want to go for this like English class and learn like they're supposed to be going to be learning English, but they actually really just want to write these really raunchy stories. And so what I love about it is I think for me, it shows us what we do in hard times and how we get through hard times. It's not always just like lamenting over them what it's like doing something totally crazy and different. And it's one of my favourite books to recommend because it just has everything.

TOM POWER: What's your classic pick here, Jael? What's the book, we've always, you've always wanted to get around to that you should finally read?

JAEL RICHARDSON: Well, you know, it's funny because I think for me when you're going back, I really want to read like the Jane Eyre and the Weathering Heights, those sort of romance stories. I find for me, romance is like how I survive when it's difficult is just like good endings, happy endings for people. I know it's not always realistic, but like, I think we'd all like to feel like this is gonna have a happy ending.

TOM POWER: I think anything that any piece of literature that can give us a bit of a happy ending right now would just be lovely.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Exactly. Just remind us that there are happy endings.

TOM POWER: Absolutely. Jael, I hope you're staying safe during all this.

JAEL RICHARDSON: I am. You too.

TOM POWER: I'll talk to you soon, I hope?

JAEL RICHARDSON: I hope very soon. I hope everybody gets a lot of writing and reading doneand just enjoys the power of the written word.

TOM POWER: Well, yeah, I mean, I think we need art and stories now more than ever.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Absolutely.

TOM POWER: Jael Richardson is the book columnist for Q. She joined us from her home in beautiful Brampton, Ontario. Jael, thanks so much. Take care.

JAEL RICHARDSON: Take care.

MG: Well, that's nice. Some suggestions.

TOM POWER: I think I'm gonna go home and finally dig out East of Eden and just do it, Matt.

MG: Oh I thought you were going to say you're gonna go home and figure out where to build the arch.

TOM POWER: I mean, I'm going to think about it.

MG: Tom, thank you.

TOM POWER: Thank you so much, Matt, for having me. You take care, hey buddy.

MG: And you. Tom Power, his conversation with Q Book columnist Jael Richardson. He'll be back a little bit later on in the program to share something fun that he did with the frontman of your Barenaked Ladies, Mr. Ed Robertson. That is on its way. Coming up in our next half hour, I'll speak with three Canadians with COVID-19. They have the same diagnosis, completely different stories. That's on its way. Plus, hear from Catherine Tate, the president and CEO of CBC Radio-Canada about what exactly happened to your supper hour newscasts. It's a question that many people coast to coast to coast are asking. We'll get some answers coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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'We totally understand the frustration': CBC president defends local TV news suspension amid pandemic

Guests: Catherine Tate

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. It's an extended version of The Current. During this pandemic you will hear this program for longer. There's a lot to talk about and a lot for us to process. And the idea is to be here for you and cover everything you need to know about COVID-19. Up until last week, Canadians could also flip on CBC television and hear from their local supper hour newscasts. Those local newscasts though have been suspended and there has been anger and protest around that decision. Joining me now to explain some of the rationale behind that is Catherine Tate. She's the president and CEO of CBC and Radio Canada. Catherine Tate, good morning.

CATHERINE TATE: Good morning.

MG: Can you explain why CBC has suspended local supper hour newscasts in the midst of a pandemic?

CATHERINE TATE: We were basically managing an unbelievable volume of incoming news feeds from across the country and central control, as it were, was overloaded, and so we took a decision in real time in order to preserve our core service. As I said, it was a temporary decision and we had to do it to stabilize the systems. And since that date — it was March 17th — since that date, we have been restoring more and more local news each day. And so people are seeing now their anchors are back on air and we're improving the service each day.

MG: Do you understand the anger that people felt across the country when this decision was made?

CATHERINE TATE: Oh, absolutely. There is nothing more important than the services we provide to local communities. It is raison d'etre of the public broadcaster, Matt, and we totally understand the frustration. You can imagine the strain that we were feeling as we took that decision. We didn't take it lightly. We were really trying to preserve the core service so that we would really be able to continue to operate. This has been an unprecedented time, not just for the CBC, but for all Canadians, and we're all dealing and adjusting to the pressures as they come in.

MG: The unprecedented nature of it though, would lead some people to expect that their public broadcaster would be able to give us comprehensive coverage to this as possible. The premier of PEI. Dennis King said that CBC News Compass is the only local daily TV news program in PEI. Our mandate is is to inform people. How can we inform people if, for example, folks in PEI don't have local news to be able to digest — to be able to to learn about what's happening in their own community?

CATHERINE TATE: Well, I should just say, since you mention it, we do provide news on a whole lot of other platforms as you well know radio being number one — but also on digital platforms. So we've supplemented local information and local news on those platforms. And as I said, we are restoring local television supper hours as I speak to you now.

MG: You have said, and this has been pointed out by a number of people, that local is in many ways at the heart of the organization. These are your words: "There is nothing more important than local stories and local news. If Canadians aren't reflected in where they are, wherever they are, we aren't doing our job." We've heard that MPs from across the country have apparently been receiving feedback on this, have been facing incoming pressure from their constituents of all parties. We've heard, as well, that I mentioned what the premier was saying, but also viewers, also listeners who say that we as a public broadcaster aren't doing our job. Have you been surprised at the outpouring of support for these programs?

CATHERINE TATE: Well, I have to say, I you know, of course we understand the frustration and we understand the disappointment, but I think we've been very clear we did not take this decision lightly. It was taken as we our systems were possibly failing us. And so, again, they were not designed for managing the volume of news that we were trying to to manage. So, of course, we're back. Local news is absolutely at the core of what we do. And all I can say is check your radio, check online. And tonight, you'll be seeing your local hosts back working as they do each and every day, serving people in the communities around the country.

MG: There was a man named Jonathan Crow in Conception Bay South who wrote and perhaps this is answered in somewhat by what you've been saying about what will happen this evening, but he wrote a letter to the editor saying, "viewers expecting local news get cookie cutter coverage of the COVID-19 crisis. They weren't able to see stories about their community told to them by the familiar faces they've come to know and trust over the years." In a national pandemic, in an international pandemic, how important is it that people are able to get what they need to know about their own community?

CATHERINE TATE: It's absolutely critical, and I can say if there is a silver lining in this crisis, I hope that CBC is helping to keep Canadians close and connected, especially in a time of social distancing. We are, as I said, providing local news 24/7 online on radio and returning tonight and going forward on television. So all I can say is, like all companies and like all businesses, we had to adjust. We had to do what was necessary to fix the systems so that we could continue to serve Canadians, which is absolutely our purpose and our raison d'etre as the public broadcaster.

MG: Do CBC News Network and The National really have the resources to cover local news about COVID-19 in the kind of detail that that families and communities and individuals would need in those communities to stay safe?

CATHERINE TATE: Well, as I said, we have — I'm not sure I'm fully understanding your question, Matt — we have these amazing CBC journalists and technicians on the ground in those communities. And even though many have gone home, we follow the directives of the government. About 40 per cent of our workforce is at home right now, but they're filing stories remotely on radio and online. So just to be clear, we still have our people in the communities covering those stories and reporting back to to their communities and reflecting their community.

MG: The lobby group Friends of Canadian Broadcasting is saying that the real problem here isn't an individual issue, it's not about what's happening during this pandemic, it's that technical resources are centralized in Toronto because of chronic underfunding and generations of CBC management teams that regard local news as expendable. What would you say in that?

CATHERINE TATE: Well, I'm sorry, I just simply think that's not a correct interpretation. We as a broadcaster, like many broadcasters, I would say probably like most broadcasters, have automated our systems not because of cutbacks but because it's more efficient to do so. We have an amazing system and it's worked impeccably for the last 10 years. Nobody — and I have to say to friends — nobody could plan for an unprecedented event like this coronavirus crisis. So as I said earlier, we've adjusted, we've stabilized the system and we're back.

MG: We've seen other public broadcasters — you take a look at what the BBC is doing in the midst of this, and they're in some ways expanding programming. They have coronavirus podcasts, they have science programming, they have a programming about how to speak to kids and how to answer the questions that kids might have. How does what we are doing here compare to what other public broadcasters are doing in the midst of this crisis?

CATHERINE TATE: Well I should say we've been talking to our colleagues across the planet, and we've done many of the same things. So we've mobilized our units on all platforms. We've got dedicated COVID-19 information. We've also made our services free and accessible. So working with our amazing cable companies: Bell, Shaw, Cogego and others. CBC News Network and RDI are available free to all Canadians. We've opened up our educational platforms — you might not know, it's called Curio.ca, which normally just delivers programming to educational institutions and libraries. We've opened that up so all Canadians with kids at home can be looking at that more educational content. We've turned around our morning schedule from 7:00 a.m. to noon [with] ad free kids programming to help families deal with a lot of kids at home. Some really great local initiative, speaking about the importance of local. Our Ottawa station here has invited kids to report from home. So we've got a whole lot of kids that are now training as correspondents. We've also added about 250 hours of new kids content on [CBC] Gem. Also importantly, we're helping our creators. You know, this has been a huge impact on the cultural community coast to coast to coast, so we've turned our radio weekday shows to 100 per cent Canadian music to support Canadian artists and musicians. We're looking at replacing hours and hours of hockey programming with more Canadian cultural programming. So, you know, we're responding, as our colleagues are, to not just to bring their most important news and information on the virus and on what's happening and how our government is responding, but also helping to provide much needed entertainment and, you know, hopefully some relief the stress of this this event.

MG: Just before I go, journalists don't want to be the story, they want to tell the story. We're now the story in some ways. And you have people, again, of all political stripes who are criticizing the CBC for this decision. Do you worry that this adds fuel to the fire of those who want to do away with the CBC entirely?

CATHERINE TATE: I am convinced — and I think are the numbers show it — Canadians are coming to the CBC in numbers like we've never seen before. Whether it's TheNnational, whether it's our .ca digital news, whether it's your show, Matt. We can see Canadians using our services like they never have before. And I count on that, and we stay focused on that. That's the most important thing we can do is to continue serving Canadians.

MG: Catherine Tate, it's good to speak with you about this. This is a subject that Canadians in the midst of this crisis are engaged with and concerned about. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

CATHERINE TATE: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Catherine Tate is the president and CEO of CBC Radio Canada.

[Music]

Conversation with Canadians diagnosed with COVID-19

Guests: Craig Lee, Jerilyn Gabruck, Carmen Lee

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. More than 2000 Canadians have been diagnosed with confirmed or probable cases of COVID-19. And three of them join me now. Craig Lee was a passenger on the Diamond Princess Cruise ship. It was quarantined in February. He's now at home in Richmond Hill, Ontario. Jerilyn Gabruck is a nurse who took a trip to Mexico and caught the virus. She's in Vegreville, Alberta. And Carmen Lee, no relation to Craig, is currently quarantined with COVID-19 in Barcelona, Spain. Good morning to you all.

CRAIG LEE: Good morning Matt.

JERILYN GABRUCK: Good morning.

CARMEN LEE: Good morning.

MG: Carmen, how are you doing?

CARMEN LEE: I'm doing great now. It's been over a week or over two weeks sorry, since I first started having symptoms, so I'm I'm 100 percent back to normal at this point.

MG: That's excellent news. Jerilyn, how about you?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Same thing. We came back on the 7th and I started having symptoms on around the evening of the 8th and I'm been feeling really gone from five days ahead of that.

MG: And Craig, how about you? How are you doing?

CRAIG LEE: I'm fine. I was 30 days quarantined in Japan. I arrived back in Canada on the 5th. And I've been here for two weeks. I'm just fine. Never had any symptoms.

MG: Never had any symptoms?

CRAIG LEE: None at all.

MG: So you felt fine the whole time?

CRAIG LEE: I did the whole time. I had a good appetite. My temperature was normal, my oxygen and my blood was fine. I exercised, I slept well, good appetite and I've had no symptoms at all.

MG: So given that, how did you learn that you had COVID-19?

CRAIG LEE: On the ship they did a PCV test, sorry PCR tests and they found out I tested positive for it. So because of that, I had to go to a hospital in Japan. And then every other day I had a test and it was positive, positive, positive and then I got too negatives, which allowed me to leave the country.

MG: Wow. I want to talk about being in the quarantine. 30 days you were on that ship? Is that you said?

CRAIG LEE: No 14 on the ship and 16 in the hospital.

MG: Wow. That's a long time. Carmen, tell me about your symptoms. When did you start feeling ill?

CARMEN LEE: So I started having symptoms on March 9th and it started with a cough and the cough was pretty nasty. It lasted a couple days and eventually developed into a fever, about 38 degrees was my highest recorded temperature and then I also had some lung irritation. So I I never had any difficulty breathing. It was just uncomfortable. I felt as though every time I wanted to breathe in, I wanted to cough, to clear my lungs. And and so my symptoms lasted about 10 days.

MG: Did you think at that point that it might be COVID-19 or what was going through your mind?

CARMEN LEE: Well, actually, at the beginning, I did not because the outbreak hadn't begun here in Spain. So the first two days I was walking around coughing and so was everybody else. And then suddenly, you know, these two days passed and the country completely did a somersault with with all of this COVID outbreak and immediately I knew then I it was likely that I had COVID-19 and I needed to self isolate right away.

MG: And at the worst of it, how were you feeling?

CARMEN LEE: At the worst of it, I was OK. I did decide to go to a hospital when I was about seven days into having symptoms because I wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to develop pneumonia. And with the state of the health care system here, it was being overrun. I wanted to be sure that if I was going to need treatment, that I would get it before it gets any worse with the hospitals and everything like that. So I did go get a test at the hospital, but I never had to receive any treatment, which was great.

MG: That sounds really scary being far from home and having to face that again, knowing the state of the hospitals as well.

CARMEN LEE: Yeah, it was a little bit scary for sure, but I did see the state of the hospitals. It was very busy and I could just see that it, I couldn't imagine what it's like right now because that was over a week ago now when I was there.

MG: Jerilyn, I mentioned that you went to Mexico. Do you have any sense as to how you caught the virus?

JERILYN GABRUCK: No. We've been thinking about it and we didn't feel like there was anyone on our resort that we were leery of. You know, it was in the back of our minds covered, but it hadn't hit Canada the way it has now. And so we have no idea. It could have been in the airport or on the plane or in the resort. I don't think we'll ever know.

MG: How concerned were you about COVID-19 when you went to Mexico?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Not that concerned, unfortunately. We, you know, had the trip booked and no one else was cancelling anything at that point in time. By the time we got home, definitely that had changed. But you're kind of in a little bubble down there and not really noticing what's going on.

MG: Hindsight is 20/20 as well. Do you wish, I mean, not that you paid more attention, you're nurse, you know, health inside and know. But part of that is also I want to get, you know, it's been a long winter and I could get to Mexico. And do you regret any of that decision making?

JERILYN GABRUCK: You know, I don't think there's anything that we could have done differently. If, again, if it had been a week later, we definitely would have thought about it more. And most likely not have gone, but at the time, it wasn't something that many people were talking about yet.

MG: When did things seem off to you?

JERILYN GABRUCK: We arrived home on the Saturday evening, and by Sunday later evening, I started getting chills and a fever. And it wasn't accompanied by anything else. I didn't have a cough. I didn't have sore throat or anything, but due to my line of work, I thought, you know, I should just get a test done just to be sure. Figuring for sure I'd be negative and then came back positive.

MG: You thought you'd be negative?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Absolutely. I just did the test more in as a screening measure as a nurse. I definitely didn't think there'd be any way I would have it.

MG: What was your reaction when you got that positive test back?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Disbelief. My husband had to come home from a business trip he'd been on and my three children and all five of us, we knew we had to stay in for the next 14 days and there weren't very many cases at that point in time. So it was, you know, not expected, that's for sure.

MG: Again, knowing what you know as a nurse, were you concerned at all or did you think that this is happening, but I don't need to be that worried?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Yeah, I'm not a worrier generally. And my symptoms were very, very mild and I wasn't too concerned about that. We took precautions and did what we could as a family and thankfully, I hadn't gone anywhere when I had returned home. Like my husband had gone to get groceries and that sort of thing. So it could've been a lot worse for sure.

MG: Craig, we talked a lot about the Diamond Princess Cruise ship where there are so many passengers who had coronavirus. Do you have any sense as to how you got it? Was it just being there on that ship? Is there something else that you think might have led you to become infected?

CRAIG LEE: There were three different occasions Matt where I think I might have gotten it. We came back from an excursion about 2 o'clock and I was hungry. So I went up to the deck and I got a hamburger and fries and I went into the dining room and there was a sink there to wash your hands with before you ate. But I had a knapsack and I had my tray with my fries and my hamburger. It was crowded up there, so I ignored washing my hands. I never thought about it till later on. And I was eating the chips with my fingers and the hamburger with my fingers, so I'm wondering if that might be it. Or it could be on the elevator. We were in elevator sometimes and people kept coming in and breathing on you and the elevator buttons were there. And then I was with a group of passengers singing in the atrium and we had rehearsals and one of the songs we sang was in Japanese. Well, I don't do Japanese too well. So I was standing next to a man who knew quite well and just wondered if I might have caught it then, but you never know.

MG: What was life like on that ship?

CRAIG LEE: Initially, when we were quarantined, it was a bit scary. The second night we were there, the optamologist from China died and he was 23. And I thought, yikes. I'm 72. This is a bit scary. But anyway, I got over that and then we had a routine. We were allowed on deck every day for an hour. We were in an interior cabin, which is a bit like cabin fever. But we got a routine going where we had answered e-mails because we had a very strong Internet and we had television programs. We had food brought to us all the time, drinks. We were constantly answering the door for sheets and taking garbage out and getting more food and getting crossword puzzles and things like that. So we were busy. I had a really good travelling companion, which was nice. I also was able to face time, my wife back here in Richmond Hill and son every day, which made it much easier knowing that there, I could, they could see me and see I was fine.

MG: We heard from a number of people who were on they were in cabins that I guess had a balcony, maybe they were in a suite or something and they always said, well, at least we're not in one of those interior cabins. Is it as bad as people thought it would be?

CRAIG LEE: Well you escape every night for eight hours when you go to sleep. We had very kind people across the hall from us who had a balcony and when it was their time to go and get some fresh air, they would phone us up and say, we're not going out today. You can use our time outside. So they were very kind like that.

MG: Yeah that's nice.

CRAIG LEE: It was very nice. We were in, we got used to a we got a routine going so that we were, you know, occupied. I got dressed every day. We turned the lights on. So it was daytime and at night we put our house clothes on and turned the lights down. So we made it like day and night, so that helped.

MG: Carmen, you're now quarantined in Barcelona. How much space do you have in the space that you're in. What kind of room are you in?

CARMEN LEE: So I'm in my bedroom. I've been here for 14 days. Today is my last day.

MG: What's it like being in that small space?

CARMEN LEE: It's definitely had its difficulties. That's for sure. There's not too too much space, but I mean, it could be worse, I guess. At least I have a big window that I can open each day, which is nice andget a little bit of sunshine, but I've been definitely feeling a little bit restless here and there. And it's been kind of challenging just trying to keep myself busy and and keep motivated to be doing things all the time.

MG: Are you going to try and get back to Canada?

CARMEN LEE: I am, yes. Hopefully tomorrow, actually.

MG: There are a lot of people who are going to end up perhaps in a similar state that you're in. And I just wonder finally, if you have any words of advice or comfort, not just for them, but even for each other. And we could start with you, Carmen. What would you say to your other people in quarantine, your fellow quarantine folks?

CARMEN LEE: I would just say to to keep your head up and and just focus on the positives every day and at this has been a difficult time for everybody. And whether you have been diagnosed, whether you're not sure or you know, you're completely OK. It's not ideal for anybody and we're just trying to work through every single day to make sure that everything is all right and that's all you can really do is just focus on it day by day.

MG: Jerilyn, for you? Words of advice?

JERILYN GABRUCK: Yeah, same thing. I mean, even when our quarantine days are gone, the world looks so different out there. And I think everyone is kind of in this situation, at least here in Canada, where we're having to live more in our homes and with our families and I'm trying really hard to use this time as what I'm sure will be a memorable with my kids and my husband. And, you know, we've got some forced family time happening and we've been able to spend a lot more time together. So trying to appreciate what we've been given.

MG: You won't forget it, that's for sure. What about for you, Craig?

JERILYN GABRUCK: We definitely will not.

MG: You've been in quarantine the longest. What would you say in the last minute or so that we have?

CARMEN LEE: Well, I am an avid reader, so I've been doing a lot of reading. Also, you have to keep active and what I did as I got water bottles and I was doing exercises with my upper body, using the water bottles. And in the hospital, I went to YouTube and I got some Sousa marches and I did my exercises, 15 minutes to those and that really helped. And I also walked the halls in the hospital and also the cabin, even though it was tiny. I made sure I walked for half an hour at a time with my timer on. So I think the thing is to have a positive attitude, to keep active. There are people in a much worse situations than you are and this is going to end.

MG: The Sousa marches would help too.

CRAIG LEE: They did. It was fun.

MG: I appreciate speaking with you all and I'm glad you're all feeling on the mend. Thank you so much.

CRAIG LEE: Thanks Matt.

JERILYN GABRUCK: Thank you.

CARMEN LEE: Thank you very much.

MG: Craig Lee was a passenger quarantined on the Diamond Princess Cruise ship with COVID-19. He's in Richmond Hill, Ontario. Jerilyn Gabruck is a nurse in Vegreville, Alberta who tested positive for the virus. And Carmen Lee is a Canadian recovering from COVID-19 in Barcelona, Spain. Coming up in our next half hour of the program, we're going to talk about construction workers who are split on the issue of whether it's still safe to work right now or not. From crowded camps to tight bus rides, we'll take a look at social distancing and why it's difficult to enact that on the job site. Stay with us. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music]

Shut down construction sites until COVID-19 threat has passed, says wife of worried worker

Guests: Patricia James, Andrew Mercier, Joseph Mancinelli

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, construction workers and companies are torn on how to handle COVID-19. In a moment, we'll look at the debate on whether to scale back projects or shut them down, but first, we need you to settle a different debate for us. Is it a jam or not a jam?

[Music: Theme]

MG: This is an extended version of The Current. You would be typically hearing Q rght now with our friend Tom Power. Seems rude to just be in that space without having Tom here in our space. And it's good to have you here.

TOM POWER: How are you, Matt? Thanks for doing all this and it's nice to see.

MG: Socially distanced, appropriate measure.

TOM POWER: I think we're just, we're just as far enough away as we can possibly be at this moment.

MG: You have this game that you like to play over there on the Q. It's called jam or not a jam.

TOM POWER: Yeah. It's this game that I came up with with my buddies from Newfoundland where we would be at the bar. You know, man having a couple of Pepsis as you do. And we would we would songs. would come over the radio or so school, come over the stereo, I should say, and Wi-Fi, the Hi-Fi, they would call it. And we would have to raise our hands and say whether it was a jam or not a jam. It's a bit of an intellectual game, as you can possibly tell. And the rules are complex. So we decided to bring him back when I was back on Radio 2. We used to play with guests that would come in. It became a pretty popular video series and CBC music and we do it every now and then and we do live shows on cue. Would you like me to explain?

MG: What does it mean, jam or not?

TOM POWER: So what it essentially means is this is the criteria we have is when you hear a song on the radio, you by yourself in the car and it comes on, do you turn it up to jam? Do you turn it down? It ain't a jam. So what I've been doing over the past little while is every day around three o'clock getting together with Canadian musicians and playing jam or not a jam with them playing songs from Spotify, often sent in by listeners to them and discussing essentially whether they're any good or not.

MG: You're not doing this face to face? You're doing this through the miracle of technology.

TOM POWER: Instagram live. Yesterday I spoke to Jeremy Dutcher, the great Polaris Prisz winning artist. We talked for about 45 minutes. Kathleen Edwards. Today at 3 p.m. I'm going to be talking to you about becoming Newfoundland musician named Alan Doyle. So, yeah.

MG: He's got a perhaps a glittering career ahead of him.

TOM POWER: He's got a bright future ahead of him.

MG: If he plays it right.

TOM POWER: If he would just get a haircut.

MG: Who else have you, we were gonna hear a little bit of this, who else have you been hanging out with?

TOM POWER: So this is Ed Robertson from Bare Naked Ladies. I talked to Ed the day after I spoke to Donovan Woods. Ed is at his cottage with his family. They're doing their part to socially distance themselves. And before we got into the actual music of it, Ed told me how he's coping with everything.

SOUNDCLIP

ED ROBERTSON: I started to think about this whole pandemic kind of in the context of like when 9/11 happened. And they just kept showing the planes hitting the building over and over and over again. And I realised like, well, everybody realised it was kind of traumatizing. Yeah, it was like traumatizing French every time. And I feel like the news cycle is like that a bit right now. Not that they're overstating the severity of the problem, but I think just being in a state of peril all the time is kind of exhausting. So I've pulled back from the news cycle because I'm already doing what they recommend doing at this point. So, you know, I'm super lucky I come up to my lake spot and I'm chilling here with my family. We're all isolating together and watching for symptoms and otherwise. I'm just super grateful that we did have this place to come to. What does it mean for the A ladies for the next little while? Know you guys had a record coming out? Oh, that's a show. We were in the middle of finishing up a record, so that's on pause right now. We had to cancel postpone the UK tour, which was supposed to happen start at the end of the month. So we're trying to reschedule that for the fall. The summer tour is a little up in the air at this point, but honestly, I feel like all of that is a distant concern relative to what everybody's facing. So I just want to wish everybody well out there. Be good to yourselves, listen to music, watch movies.

TOM POWER: Good advice from Ed Robertson. Just watch more movies. Listen to more music. Read more books. I guess so. I start playing jam or not a jam on Instagram live. I start playing a music. We listen to a little Billy Eilish, some Katy Lang, the Beastie Boys, even the Venga Boys. Remember them? The Venga bus is coming [Sings]. Choosing songs for jam or not a jam is I'm not going to Gladia a bit of an art form. You want to have the right mix. Canadian, International, Contemporary, Classic, Pop, Rock, B44. But there's one song I knew I was gonna play Ed from the minute he agreed to do the Instagram live with me, so I decided to end with it. It's Bruce Coburn and Lovers in a Dangerous Time.

["Lovers in a Dangerous Time" by Bruce Coburn]

TOM POWER: Barenaked Ladies, of course, really popularized that song to a lot of younger Canadians back in the early 90s.

["Lovers in a Dangerous Time" by Barenaked Ladies]

TOM POWER: But Ed told me something surprising about what Bruce Coburn initially thought about their coverage.

SOUNDCLIP

ED ROBERTSON: The very first thing I ever heard was Coburn saying something to the effect of like as much as I'm happy about the success of their version of the song, it kind of represented everything I hated about the 60s. And I was like I was really hurt. I think he just meant, you know, it's a little out of tune. It's like the tempo speeds up. It's kind of hacky. And I think that was charming for a lot of people and I think Bruce was just like, you know, he was just post 80s. He was very modern at the time. He he remained very modern and we took one of his modern songs and made a folky version of it. And I think, yeah, maybe that didn't sit well with him. So he was just being honest about his reaction. And he did after the fact, he reached out and said, I'm really sorry. You know, I think that sort of came out of context and I talked a lot about it and I used that one juicy line and that's happened to me before. And he has more than made up for it. He's performed with us a bunch of times. He's a lovely guy and an absolute national treasure.

MG: That's Ed Robertson, front man of the Barenaked Ladies, speaking with Tom Power. And you're gonna keep doing these jam or not a jam sessions? Every day this week at 3:00 p.m. They're amazing. We had someone from Italy and during the Ed Robertson session, we got to talk to them about the situation in Italy right now. And it's become a really good hang. 3 p.m. on my Instagram @TomJoePower.

TOM POWER: Tom, thank you.

MG: Thank you, Matt. See you soon.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. Health officials keep repeating it. Stay home. And if you need to go out, practise social distancing. We know there are many Canadians who can't follow those instructions because of work. And we've been hearing from some of them, including a few who are working on big projects in remote camps. A worker at the site C Dam in northern British Columbia writes that he's worried for his health, living among hundreds of men at that camp. He says there are some extra protections, but among other things, there's no screening for people getting onto planes to come to the camp. And there is no distancing on the bus to get from the camp to the worksite. B.C. Hydro runs that operation. It has put many measures in place to meet the province's guidelines and scaled back the operation. But similar concerns are surfacing from other camps in British Columbia and also in Alberta. From a mining camp in B.C., a worker writes that he feels his camp is a ticking time bomb as long as the mine is making money. They will operate until being forced to shut down. From an Alberta camp, social distancing is not working, followed by three exclamation marks. Alberta camps need to send our loved ones home and stop the curve. We have agreed not to use these people's names because they're all worried about losing their jobs. My next guest is calling on the Alberta government to clamp down on work camps, particularly in northern Alberta. Patricia James lives in Newfoundland and her husband works in a 5000 person camp in the Athabasca Oilsands region, north of Fort McMurray. He commutes back and forth between the two provinces on a 10 day on 10 day off rotation. Again, we're not naming him or his employer to protect his job. Patricia, good morning.

PATRICIA JAMES: Good morning.

MG: How you doing in the midst of all of this?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, I'm not doing too bad, considering. I am worried though about my husband. And of course, the other people in the camp.

MG: What are you hearing from your husband about the conditions of life in the work camp?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, what he tells me, as far as I'm concerned, is not that great. You know, mealtime, it's shoulder to shoulder workers, you know, trying to get their food. Now they stepped up a little bit, but it's not enough. I mean, they wrapped the food up now, but you still have to open up the coolers to press buttons to get drinks and other food. And when he goes to work in the morning, he has to there's five people in the same pickup and the pickup has been used by other people. And, you know, they're not cleaned. That wouldn't be so bad. But as of yet, they have no types of sanitary wipes or Clorox wo[es or anything like that for cleaning. The workers have nothing.

MG: Do you know whether anyone is under quarantine at that camp? There's 5000 people up there.

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, from what he's told me and from what he's heard, there's three people been quarantined to their rooms. Now for what reason they haven't said.

MG: You said in a tweet you're terrified for him and his co-workers. What are you most concerned about?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, with a camp like that, once that virus, the COVID-19 gets in there, it's got to run like wildfire because there's people in there. They're like I said shoulder to shoulder. I mean, yes, they clean the camps and that, but I mean, the with the numbers of people that are in those camps, I mean, it's impossible to keep it clean enough for it not to spread. And I know like when those people get off work, they're just heading to their rooms to get washed off. You know, they're not stopping at the doors and you know, sanitizing their hands and things like that.

MG: How are the managers there at the camp responding to the concerns of the workers, people like your husband?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, they usually have morning meetings before they go to work, you know, toolbox talks and that, but once the question started, they stopped the tool box talks. They hand them out sheets of paper and they just go off to work and what they have to do that day is on the paper.

MG: On its website, the company says on its website that it is taking proactive and preventative measures to protect its workers against COVID-19. What do you think?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, I don't think that's true because, you know, up there in oil sands, facemasks are a normal item that you should be given all the time because of the silica dust. They haven't been given any dust masks. There's some there's no cleaners or anything for the workers to use to even wipe down the equipment from somebody else using it on the previous shift, you know? So another worker gets on in the morning and there's no there's no cleaners or anything. They've asked for them and they haven't been given them.

MG: He's on that 10 day on 10 day off rotation and so if he comes home this week, what's the plan?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, we are going to isolate for 14 days. I have everything here that we need and we're prepared for that.

MG: What about I mean, it's not just you, you're doing the right thing. There are hundreds of other workers from your province who work in Alberta. What could happen if they all come home?

PATRICIA JAMES: Well, I guess we all have to isolate and really in a nutshell, if everybody isolates, I think this thing would slow down a lot faster.

MG: And that's what we're being told. I mean, the prime minister yesterday said, stay home if you can. Don't go out. But people are still having to go out. They can't work from home. Your husband can't work from home. And so he has to go to work. Do you want the camp shut down?

PATRICIA JAMES: I do. Until this is over. That's the best measure, because if not, people are going to die. And that's as simple as that.

MG: It's a tricky decision and obviously it doesn't question the health and the science of it, but there is an economic factor to this as well. And how do you balance that, if I can put it that way?

PATRICIA JAMES: For ourselves?

MG: Yeah, I mean for yourself, sure. I mean, it's money and he's got to work. But also in shutting these big camps down, that's a big economic hit as well.

PATRICIA JAMES: It is. But these camps too are you know, they're the contractors. They do a lot of work for the bigger companies. And I mean, the companies are taking a hit now, I know, but I mean, I really don't know what to say with that. But I mean, you know, you have to draw a line somewhere. You know, does the company take a hit or do human lives take a hit.

MG: I wish you the best and I appreciate you talking to us. Stay well.

PATRICIA JAMES: Thank you.

MG: Patricia James is in Newfoundland. Her husband is in a 5000 person work camp for an oil sands company north of Fort McMurray. It's not just the megaproject sites that the work camps where construction workers are feeling especially at risk for COVID-19. Have a listen to this. It's a Vancouver area man describing the conditions on a 3 tower condo project that he's working at right now.

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VOICE: There's definitely more than I say, easily over 100 people on the site. The site has two points of access to get up to where the work is happening. And the access hallways are above 40 inches wide. So just big enough for one, maybe two people to go up and down. So you're constantly passing by people as well as the handrails on the way up. They never get sanitized. There's only the six porta potties on site for over 100 people. They're all over the place. There's one wash station with cold water on the very bottom floor. There's no hot water out of this six porta potties. None of them. But two had sanitizer in them. 60 percent of the people as well take the public transit so popular they leave site, not washing their hands. What else are they touching? Who are they bumping into? It's insane. It's insane. On top of that, what what's really depressing about the whole situation is people like myself and other people that are in this industry have given their lives and their time for this. And in return, during a crisis, we're asking for maybe some hand sanitizer and a couple of clean things, and we can't even get that. And I will make this very clear, if it was not a COVID virus, we wouldn't even be complaining about these things because these are everyday things on the site.

MG: That's from a site in the Vancouver area. Construction workers elsewhere can relate. Yesterday, Ontario Premier Doug Ford told construction workers if they don't feel safe, "leave the site and don't come back." But even as he ordered nonessential workplaces closed, that still didn't include construction sites. Joseph Mancinelli is the Vice President of Labourers' International Union of North America for Central and Eastern Canada. His organization represents over 130,000 unionized construction industry workers. Andrew Mercier is executive director of the BC building Trades Council. That represents about 35,000 union workers in BC. Good morning to you both.

JOSEPH MANCINELLI: Good morning, Matt.

ANDREW MERCIER: How you doing, Matt?

MG: I'm well, thanks. Andrew, does that worker's description of his job site ring true to you?

ANDREW MERCIER: It does, and particularly in residential tower development in the lower mainland, where sanitation has been an issue for years. And we're just starting to see a light shone on it with the sense of urgency now.

MG: What else have you been hearing in these past couple of days from from your members about the conditions that they're working in?

ANDREW MERCIER: What I'd say first and I think you hit the nail on the head by differentiating between the remote camp work and the Lower Mainland residential work, which is the construction industry, is incredibly diverse. But in particular with residential in the lower mainland, lots of hand-washing stations is the number one thing we've been hearing. I mean there are sites where the hand-washing station is literally a hose taped to a two by four and a bar of soap for a hundred people.

MG: How is that allowed to continue?

ANDREW MERCIER: Well, it ought not to be. You know, I'll tell you this. There are very good laws on the books right now about hand-washing stations, but there hasn't been enforcement of there hasn't been compliance. So one of the things that we're doing right now is putting a lot of pressure on WorkSafe, which is the Orwellian name for our workers compensation board, to get out there, inspect these sites and deal with this issue.

MG: Joseph, what are you hearing from your members about the sites that they're working on and how they're how they're dealing with the directives and the guidance to be socially distancing?

JOSEPH MANCINELLI: Well, it's a similar situation to British Columbia. We have a lot of complaints coming from our members in a number of different sites, especially the larger sites where they're complaining about sanitary conditions that are not at par to what the government is talking about. Social distancing, quite frankly, is a theoretical issue in the construction industry. I mean, I'm not sure how you accomplish that when you have sites that have three to five hundred people working on a construction site, touching rules, touching railings, touching everything. I'm really not sure that that you can talk about social distancing on a site of that magnitude. So we have a lot of anxiety at the moment. A lot of of our members are upset. They are experiencing levels of anxiety that they've never experienced before. Imagine they're going home to their families and, you know, talking to their wives and their children's and they're wondering on whether or not they're bringing this deadly virus into the home. So you can just imagine the level of anxiety that exists.

MG: Premier Doug Ford said those those workers, if they don't feel safe to leave the site and don't come back. Is that practical for those workers, Joseph?

JOSEPH MANCINELLI: Well, it sounds great, but, you know, again, it's pretty theoretical. I mean, I don't think that a worker feels confident that if he leaves that job site, that he's going to be able to find employment again. So just imagine you're you're on a site that doesn't have proper hand-washing or disinfectant. You're at you're eating in trailers that are, quite frankly, overflowing and taking breaks with other workers in tight quarters. And, you know, if you decide to leave, the chances are you're not going to get back. So here's your livelihood at stake. And so now you have to make a decision on whether or not to take a risk on the job site and put your life at risk and possibly put your family's life at risk. Or do I make the decision, you know, to leave the site and lose income for my family? This is a terrible situation to put workers in. Do you know the province of Quebec, which is part of my area, decided to to do a moratorium on all job sites, construction sites for three weeks. And look at we talk about economic factors in the construction industry. And I get it. And then it affects all of us. It affects even the grocery store at the corner. People aren't making money, so I get that. But what is more important here is to ensure the safety not only of our workers, but of the communities that they live.

MG: So do you think the sites just briefly should be shut down?

JOSEPH MANCINELLI: I think so. And look at we have half of our membership, more than half of our membership that wants to work. They don't want to see the sites shut down. But I think that it's impractical to to convince ourselves that that we can keep our job sites open with three to five hundred people working on on particular sites, one site, hundred people on it. And and actually convince ourselves that we're social distancing and that we're not putting people at risk. I think that the solution here is if we want to really curve it, take that curve down on this horrible club at 19. We really need to hunker down, shut the industry down for a couple of weeks. Let's see those numbers drop. Let's put people out of the areas of risk and then I think we're going to see some progress.

MG: What about you, Andrew? I mean you have workers working in these towers, but also workers up in remote areas, in the Kitimat area, working in the LNG plant there, the Site C Dam as well. Should the sites be shut down? Should the work be shut down if we want to truly fly in the curve?

ANDREW MERCIER: So I'll say couple of things here and one I agree with Joe there that what we need are solutions, not sound bites. And you know, you hear Doug Ford from the east out here in the west and when you get there as a sound bite and not a solution, and this is an industry that is based on human ingenuity and marshalling resources to do very complex things that historically tackled very complicated engineering and manpower problems. But is having a having trouble coordinating hand-washing stations like. I think we need to let that sink in for a sec. So when you look at remote campsites everywhere, you've seen a shutdown thus far. And I can't speak to the Quebec example, but everywhere you've seen a shutdown thus far, in New York or California, there is still a considerable amount of construction work being done because the fact of the matter is, a lot of the work that we do, road building, civil infrastructure is critical to keep supply chains going and keep the lights on. We need to find safe ways to do that work. So one of the things the BC Building Trades has done is called for remote camps to be scaled down in so far as possible to keep the critical work going, but to empty the camps out, to make for a safer situation. And really into some of that hasn't been said yet to alleviate the pressure on a rural health care system.

MG: Well, we'll see whether the officials are listening. We'll have to leave it there because it's an issue that concerns so many people right across the country. Gentlemen, thank you both.

JOSEPH MANCINELLI: Thank you Matt.

ANDREW MERCIER: You're welcome.

MG: Andrew Mercier, executive director of the BC Building Trades Council. Joseph Mancinelli, Vice President of the Labourers International Union of North America for Central and Eastern Canada. We're back in about 90 seconds. This is The Current extended version on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway.

[Music: Theme]

The Current Transcript for March 24, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Scientists across the world are getting creative in an effort to fight COVID-19

Canada says it won’t send athletes to Olympic games

Canadian mayors discuss their community challenges and teamwork in the face of the pandemic

There are options for young people dealing with anxiety amidst self-isolation

'We totally understand the frustration': CBC president defends local TV news suspension amid pandemic

Conversation with Canadians diagnosed with COVID-19

Shut down construction sites until COVID-19 threat has passed, says wife of worried worker

Mar. 24, 2020 episode transcript

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