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The Current Transcript for March 21, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We are talking about something that is more severe than hurricane Katrina. And I think this is really really severe and it will take many months to recover.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The watery fury of Cyclone Idai which has devastated Mozambique's coastal city of Beira does indeed have a parallel to Hurricane Katrina which bore down on new leans back in 2005. Both of those cities are below sea level. And what happened to Beira over the weekend was something that top scientists and engineers have been working to avoid. There's been a huge project underway to help Beira withstand massive flooding but they haven't finished and they were not expecting a cyclone this powerful. In a moment we're looking at the real time effort to fight the ravages of extreme weather and climate change. Also today, an estimated 40,000 students have been on the streets and out have their CEGEP and university classrooms in Montreal this week protesting against unpaid internships.

SOUNDCLIP

If you are a student who can't afford to do an unpaid internship you're just not going to get the same opportunities. We think everyone should be able to access these opportunities and it's not accessible if it's unpaid.

AMT: It is not just the money. It is the internships that don't get the money. Namely in career choices dominated by women were looking at that in an hour. We're also talking about children long before they get to that point in the education system, when they're just about four years old. By then it is already becoming clear if your child is a tenacious resilient dandelion or a far more vulnerable orchid.

SOUNDCLIP

The orchid child has the best health outcomes in families that are supportive. On the other hand, the same orchid children in stressful circumstances have the worst of the outcomes.

AMT: The metaphor that just might help you understand your child. Tom Boyce shares his insightful research on the orchid and the dandelion in half an hour. I am Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Why rapid urbanization in Africa is made Cyclone Idai more devastating

Guests: Michel Matera, Rick Goverde

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AMT: Well talk about the fury of nature, Cyclone Idai was not even a cyclone when it first made landfall in the Mozambique coast two weeks ago. It was a tropical storm that changed course and headed back to sea. And then it gathered force and it came slamming back in late last Thursday, churning through Mozambique and even hitting neighboring Zimbabwe. The floodwaters have kept rising in Mozambique. Thousands of people are still stranded. The death toll continues to climb. This was an extreme weather event with flooding that experts focused on issues related to climate change were working to avoid. And yet the city of Beira is mostly destroyed. We're going to hear from someone who has been working to avoid that scenario in a moment, but first Deborah Nguyen is working is working with the World Food Program.

SOUNDCLIP

You have to imagine, it looks like the end of the world. Everything has collapsed . Trees are down, electrical cords are down on the roads. All the houses are completely destroyed and there are many buildings that have been destroyed by the cyclone. It's a very very sad scenario today in Beira.

AMT: Down the coast freelance journalist Jose Temba is watching the devastation from the capital city of Maputo. About 700 kilometres south of Beira.

SOUNDCLIP

Some of the people living in that part of the country are our relatives or friends and because of the disruption of communications, we never know whether they're still alive or not. And many people trapped on trees and rooftops awaiting to be rescued. It's really pitiful to see these things happening in my own country, really unimaginable.

AMT: It is another day of national mourning in Mozambique. The country has declared a state of emergency. It's appealing for international help. Rick Goverde is a spokesperson for Save the Children and he joins us from Maputo, hello.

RICK GOVERDE: Good afternoon.

AMT: The pictures are so disturbing and so heart wrenching. I'm wondering what your colleagues who are in Beira are I telling you about how desperate people are right now.

RICK GOVERDE: Yes well they hear stories, they talk to people obviously in the field. You know there was one family who had to flee their home and the home was made of bricks. You would think that you know it would stand heavy rains and heavy heavy winds but it didn't. It crumbled. They went to another house and they had a roof collapsed and they had to flee again. This says something. You know this is just one small example of how hard the storm has hit and this was inland. This was not a ghost. This cyclone came onland it close to Beira and then you know across the country and wrecking everything in its path, bringing floods with it. It's an area where people- you know it's Mozambique is not the richest country in the world. So people a lot of people didn't have a lot to begin with and now they have lost everything they had; you know they had pots and pans to cook with, their houses. The kids went to school. That is over. And they have to rebuild their lives from scratch.

AMT: I'm just wondering that the rescue operation is still under way and the clock is ticking. What do you know about - you are with Save the Children - let's talk about the children. What do now?

RICK GOVERDE: Yeah well we're hearing first report coming in of children who have been separated from their parents or even lost their parents. And that is what you see often in crises like these. Children are probably the most vulnerable group there is in crisis like these, especially if they're unaccompanied because they have lost their parents in the floods, or they have been separated from the parents into chaos. They are vulnerable to go into forms of abuse. And they're vulnerable to violence. So children will start working just to try and make a living and cope. And that is what you see in disasters like these and we're seeing it happening now. And children, especially young children, are very susceptible to diseases. You know this is a disaster that brings loads of water into the country and contaminating all the clean water in its path. So the clean water is- there' virtually no clean water left which is a recipe for diseases, especially for children.

AMT: So what is the most urgent need right now?

RICK GOVERDE: Well the most it is one word: everything. It's food, it's shelter, it's medical supplies, it's hygiene kits, simple things like soap and disinfectant to make sure that people can live in a hygienic way to prevent those diseases from spreading or from starting. You've seen the footage of people stuck on roofs on trees even in small islands in vast amount of water. And rescue operation is now trying to reach those people or get them out of there. I think yesterday, the day before there were two or three thousand people rescued in close to [unintelligible] which is down close to Beira. We have gladly been able to help them with tents and supply them with tents [unintelligible] so they can build a roof over their head or have a roof over their head. But it's the vastness of this disaster. It's just- it's so massive that more help is needed and there and more aid supplies are needed.

AMT: And we now as we just heard from the World Food Program Deborah Nguyen that Beira is mostly destroyed. We know the rains keep falling. we know there's a surge that is still point to be a factor. How does all of that add to the challenge of getting help to people, let alone rescuing them?

RICK GOVERDE: That's the big problem, it is access. Roads have been washed away. Bridges have collapsed. The port in Beira, t's a major port, as far as I know ships haven't been able to dock their yet with aid supplies. You know that will happen in the coming days but it hasn't happened yet. And that means simply the Beira's cut off and you can only reach in by air and so aid supplies are coming in slowly. And that's just Beira. Other parts of the land more inland are inundated as well. So that's places where normally there's no water, so now rescuers have to use boats and helicopters to get those people out of there or reach them. And that makes it this operation very very hard. The people are so hard to reach.

AMT: And you're in the capital. I'm just wondering what people are saying there in reacting to the devastation and trying to get to those places from Maputo?

RICK GOVERDE: Well the journalist you just had on your show, you know, people here have relatives in Beira. They might have lost relatives, so this is truly a crisis that affects the whole country.

AMT: What is your organization on the lookout for then as the magnitude of this disaster still unfolds?

RICK GOVERDE: That think is still unfolding and I think the coming days and weeks will make clear how big the disaster actually was. But the president has said that the death toll might rise to a thousand people and you know that says something about the magnitude. It might even be. Who knows? We'll find out in the coming days or weeks. Save the Children is on the ground, doing distribution of shelter kits, hygiene kits, the items I just mentioned. We are doing it all together, in close coordination with the government and other aid organizations as well. But I think all the aid organizations are [unintelligible] all their responses because it's become clear that this is a big magnitude.

AMT: And are governments doing enough, Canadian government, other governments?

RICK GOVERDE: I know in the UK there's a big appeal go on. I'm not sure how it is in Canada. But listeners can always go to the website of Save the Children in Canada and see how they can help because this is a disaster that needs all help it can get.

AMT: Rick Goverde good to talk to you. Thank you for telling us what's going on the ground.

RICK GOVERDE: Thank you very much.

AMT: Rock Goverde, spokesperson for Save the Children. He's in Maputo, Mozambique. For years there have been warnings that Mozambique is at severe risk of flooding from cyclones. In fact a multimillion dollar project has been under way in Beira aimed at preparing the city to withstand serious flooding. Michel Matera is leading those efforts as a senior urban disaster risk management specialist at the World Bank. He's normally stationed in Maputo. Today he is in Washington D.C. Hello.

MICHEL MATERA: Good morning.

AMT: What is going through your mind as you're looking at the devastation?

MICHEL MATERA: I mean of course this is a massive event. This massive cyclone we've been working there for about five years now. But not so many cities in the world are going to withstand the impact of Category 4 cyclone, with winds of 200 kilometers. So what are we hearing from the field is indeed that the magnitude of the devastation is really huge. We are starting to get information. We know that the system that was put in place over the past year as well. But it was not enough.

AMT: Well I want to talk about that system in just a second but first of all, I'm sure a lot of people listening have seen those aerial shots of Beira under water. But paint a picture for us of what the city was like before the cyclone hit?

MICHEL MATERA: It's a city that's not in a good shape. There are lots of informal settlements. It's a city of roughly half a million people. A lot of informal city, in parts of the city people are living in low quality housing, with very low access to basic services. It's also a city that's very exposed to the impact of climate change. Now as you know city lies below sea level. So in general when you a combination of high tide and high rainfall you will have regularly flooding in Beira.

AMT: Okay and that's why you were working on some things with the World Bank. Am I correct?

MICHEL MATERA: Correct yes.

AMT: It's worth connecting some dots here because we often hear about the Paris agreement on climate change. One of the things that the Paris agreement was supposed to do, and even agreements before, was to give money to developing countries to work on mitigating things like flooding in coastal areas. Am I right?

MICHEL MATERA: This is correct, but that takes time.

AMT: So you have been working on this project. What have you been trying to do?

MICHEL MATERA: So we've basically upgraded the storm water drainage system of the city of Beira. It's physically building canals, expanding the canal networks, flood gates, water retention areas for the water to flow, and to flow not in the poor neighborhoods. But the infrastructure gap is huge. Also we are talking about an investment roughly 60 million dollars done over three four years. It is a pipeline of 300 million dollars of investment needed in the city of Beira.

AMT: Okay. And so you were looking at the drainage you were also looking at tree planting which is also a long term thing, but why?

RICK GOVERDE: Well actually what we did is we rehabilitated- in collaboration with the German corporation we rehabilitated an urban creek now to improve natural drainage capacity of some areas of the city, and to avoid encroachment in that area, we were building a green infrastructure, an urban park in the city, a little central park in the center of Beira.

AMT: What does that do? How does that mitigate flooding?

MICHEL MATERA: So basically it's like a river in natural river but the river was no longer functioning. There has been an encroachment there was no exit from that river. So basically we were rehabilitating for water to flow, installing also flood management system, floodgates to avoid when you have hightide the water to come inside the city, and to improve the quality of life in the center of Beira, turning this into a central park.

AMT: And you were working in the core of the city.

MICHEL MATERA: Correct.

AMT: And is that the area that was the most vulnerable in terms of where it is below sea level and where the water would come in?

MICHEL MATERA: There is different. The area that was prioritized because it's the economic center of the city but you have a lot of neighborhoods outside of Beira and peripheries that are highly vulnerable to flooding as well.

AMT: Okay so you were working on this but you didn't see a Category 4 coming at you?

MICHEL MATERA: Well we know that Mozambique is exposed to high intensity cyclone. Two days ago actually we approved a 90 million dollar project to build the capacity of Mozambique to respond and prepare for disasters. This is a project that's been Indah in preparation into making for a year. Just a coincident that it was approved right now. We are activating it to make sure that some money will flow into a national disaster fund to be able to respond to the most urgent needs. But we also are working on retrofitting public buildings like schools to withstand cyclone winds.

AMT: Can you connect the dots from this cyclone to extreme weather events to climate change?

MICHEL MATERA: Yes definitely. I mean we see more intense and more regular events whether it's cyclones, whether it's flooding, whether it's drought. And you have that like every other year in Mozambique basically.

AMT: This is also an area where there is a lot of rapid growth, like a lot more people coming to the area to live.

MICHEL MATERA: Correct I mean Africa is the most the fastest urbanization continent in the world. There's 500 million people living in cities today. There will be one billion by 2040. Same thing is happening with Mozambican cities.

AMT: So what does the damage from the cyclone, tell us, tell you about the risk to rapidly growing cities in the African coast as a result of climate change?

MICHEL MATERA: It says that we need to plan better. It says that we need financing to put in place some basic infrastructure before people settle in an area, especially in flooding areas. Yes.

AMT: What other cities are you worried about?

MICHEL MATERA: Maputo is a city that's exposed to extreme event. Along the coast of Mozambique, it's about 2500 kilometres of coastline. Many of those cities [unintelligible] are exposed to extreme event.

AMT: And so what needs to be done to sort of deal with that? Do you see enough players coming forward?

MICHEL MATERA: I mean there's a lot of interest from the donor community to improve the resilience of Mozambique that's for sure. We need to speed up investment. We need a combination of resilient investment to build a stronger infrastructure, to build the basic infrastructure drainage etc., but we also need to build the capacity of the country of the communities to respond and to be prepared for these type of event because they would keep coming.

AMT: So you were in the midst of this and as you say you know that there are cyclones, but as you watch this go forward - I'm just wondering - the kinds of conversations that were going on with your colleagues have been working on this with you.

RICK GOVERDE: I mean right now there's a lot of focus on the humanitarian response and as it should be. We are already thinking of the recovery and reconstruction of the city of Beira and the provinces around Beira. So we are doing an assessment right now. We are looking at the extent of the event. We are looking at what to expose, what was there in terms of roads, housing. We're trying to calculate the losses. We are looking again for an event of extreme magnitude. So losses are going to be high the capacity of the country and the city and the people to recover from that event are very low. So we are already mobilizing our teams to think about the recovery effort.

AMT: And as this kind of severe weather becomes more of a new normal what lessons are there for other areas of the world?

MICHEL MATERA: That prevention is key. We need to start working now. It's not an option.

AMT: It's interesting we heard that clip at the very beginning of our program somebody comparing it to Katrina. New Orleans is a place that is below sea level as well. We've seen massive flooding in parts of North America directly related to lack of drainage. It's kind of that infrastructure issue that people don't really want to spend money on.

MICHEL MATERA: Probably investment after Katrina in New Orleans where massive. We're talking of billions of dollars. It is certainly not something a city like Beira can afford rates. There's going to need for people to get together, donors to get together and finance this. The private sector should be part of that also, because when the city is affected when communities are affected it's the whole economy that's affected.

AMT: And there are many [unintelligible] that there is what you're telling me.

MICHEL MATERA: Correct.

AMT: Not solely in Africa but in other places and especially in developing world, right?

MICHEL MATERA: Exactly on the African of course in Asia, in Latin America. This is a global problem.

AMT: When do you go back Michel?

MICHEL MATERA: Tomorrow.

AMT: Okay. So you're going to start keep on working. You're going to adjust I guess.

MICHEL MATERA: It's correct. The immediate priority is the assessment, understanding do the level of damages and start putting together a request for more financing.

AMT: Thank you for bringing us up to date on what you're working on. Thank you.

MICHEL MATERA: Thank you very much.

AMT: That is Michel Matera. He's a senior urban and disaster risk management specialist at the World Bank. He's leading a climate adaptation project in Beira Mozambique and he is in Washington D.C. today. Let us know what you think of what he had to say about the kind of work that needs to be done. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. find us on Facebook, go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. The news is next and then orchids and dandelions are the latest metaphore to help you understand childhood development, how we can help children blossom into better adults. Are you parents to orchids or dandelions are maybe a bit of both? Listen in. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Is your child an orchid or dandelion? How one expert's theory can help us raise better people

Guest: Tom Boyce

AMT: Helo I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come tens of thousands of Québec students are out of class and on strike this week over unpaid internships. Some students are paid for internships but the unpaid ones are most commonly in fields dominated by women: nursing, social work, education. Well tell you more in half an hour. But first orchids and dandelions.

SOUNDCLIP

ADULT VOICE 1: A recent theory suggests that children are genetically predisposed to be one of two types, orchids and dandelions. Dandelions grow anywhere whatever the environment orchids are beautiful flowers but only flourish in the right environment.

TAYSIA: Fabien, Do you want to play with me?

FABIEN: Maybe.

ADULT VOICE 2: Is it ever difficult to make friends?

TAYSIA: Only if they keep running around.

ADULT VOICE 1: So at first glance it might appear that Taysia is a classic orchid child and Fabien is a classic dandelion. But in fact as you get to know them better you see that Taysia is stronger than she might appear at first glance and Fabien is more sensitive.

TAYSIA: Somebody is in the house. This is our house. go away.

AMT: Two children named Taysia and Fabien profiled in a British Channel 4 documentary called The Secret Life of Four Year Olds. Over the decades children have been divided into all kinds of categories; introverts and extroverts; resilient and vulnerable. But a leading researcher in child health and development says that a new classification for children as either orchids or dandelions can actually be more useful. Tom Boyce says orchid children and dandelion children respond differently to the stresses of life and that can teach us a lot about why some children thrive and others falter and how we can shape the world to best support every child. Tom Boyce is a professor emeritus of pediatrics and psychiatry at the University of California San Francisco. He's also the co-director of the child and brain development program of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research. He's the author of The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why some Children Struggle and how All can Thrive. And he is in Berkeley, California. I just want to warn you this conversation will touch briefly on suicide. Tom Boyce. Hello.

TOM BOYCE: Hi Anna Maria. Glad to be with you.

AMT: It's nice to have you with us. What were you thinking as you listened to that little bit of interaction between four year old Taysia and Fabian?

TOM BOYCE: I wish I had that clip myself. It's a beautiful little rendition of the differences between kids.

AMT: From all your research over decades with kindergartens how would you sum up the differences we would see on the playground or in the classroom between an orchid child and a dandelion child?

TOM BOYCE: Well when we first say that the way that we identified orchid and dandelion children was actually in a laboratory where we tested kids stress response systems to a set of challenges that we had them do, and we found that there is this tremendous difference between some kids on the one hand do big big responses and others that had almost no home. So we over the years began identifying these kids in the lab. As we worked with them clinically, we began to see that there were some outward behaviors by which we could potentially identify who was what. So the orchid child, those kinds of kids, have these very highly responsive neural biologic system that respond to stress and adversity in a in a very exaggerated way. These kids are often shy they do not easily go in to new unfamiliar circumstances. They may have tactile sensitivities or taste aversions they may respond dramatically to loud noises. And interestingly they have either the best or the worst health outcomes which is of course what we were studying depending upon the kinds of social context in which they're being reared.

AMT: Let's just stick with your orchids for a minute because there is that two pronged thing with your kids, so their response to stress. Tell me the other side of the orchid, they really nurtured inside of the orchid.

TOM BOYCE: The thing that has been striking to us is that these kids who have this kind of exaggerated sensitivity to the social world that they live in, they either have the best health outcomes; they have hardly any respiratory disease. They have no behavior problems. They really are the picture of health when they're being reared in families and in schools that are supportive, caring, predictable places. On the other hand, the same or children when they're reared in stressful in challenging circumstances, they have the worst of the outcomes. They have lots of respiratory illnesses. They have more in the way of injuries. They have really psychopathology in the form of behavior problems and so on.

AMT: And the dandelion?

TOM BOYCE: The dandelion kids - and they constitute about 80 percent of the children that we have studied - they have minimally responsive stress reaction systems. You have to really perturb them to get those systems activated. They are often extroverted and outgoing. They seem to move easily into novel in unfamiliar circumstances and they have pretty much average health under most conditions.

AMT: So the dandelion and the orchids are there and that's the perfect metaphor for these children. And I'm wondering are these categories that solely apply to children?

TOM BOYCE: No they're not. There are certainly the same sorts of differences in sensitivity and adult life and very often the kids who look like orchid children tend to be the more sensitive more susceptible adults.

AMT: How are health problems divided across society?

TOM BOYCE: The interesting thing about the distribution of the illness within childed populations is that there is a tiny minority, about 15 to 20 per cent of kids, who have well over half of the morbidities the illnesses, both mental and physical health problems, of all of the children within that population.

AMT: The Channel 4 documentary we heard a bit of at the top of this said that children are genetically predisposed to be one of two types. Does the distinction between dandelion and orchids come down to genes?

TOM BOYCE: Probably partially but not completely. We believe that these phenotypes as we call them, these profiles of orchid and dandelion children are the products like most human characteristics of an interaction between genetic variation that's in the genome of the child, and the kinds of environments that the child experiences especially early in life.

AMT: Well let me ask a little bit more on environment then. How does an orchid child's home life shape their health?

TOM BOYCE: We know that the kind of adversity and stress that is experienced within a family home are really important risk factors for child health. Really up until maybe 20-25 years ago we had really no idea that it was even pertinent. We now know that there is really an epidemic, if you will, childhood trauma and the adverse events. Those come in the form of maltreatment, physical, emotional, sexual maltreatment, intimate partner or community violence, substance abuse or mental illness in a parent, divorce, parent incarceration, being a single unsupported parent. All of these kinds of things that happen within families are adversive events that have a clear effect on the health and well-being of the children within that family.

AMT: So would the stress have the same effect on the dandelion.

TOM BOYCE: That is really what our research has been about. Now Major of severe stressors things like sexual or physical maltreatment or emotional maltreatment those would probably have an effect on both a dandelion and an orchid child. It's important to note that orchid is not a broken down lie child. And there really are no unbreakable children. All children if tested and stressed sufficiently will begin to show the kind of illness and mental health outcomes that we're familiar with.

AMT: What about school? How important is that environment?

TOM BOYCE: We think it's very important. Our studies of children in kindergarten and public schools identified huge differences between kindergarten teachers in the way that they managed and dealt with their class. There's a whole set of strategies that teachers do or do not use that're more or less helpful to the orchid child. Routines and sameness seems to be important to all children but particularly important to orchid children. Knowing that I can count on dinner every night with my family, going to church or a temple or a mosque every week. All of these kinds of. Day by day week by week routines and rituals seem to be especially important to these highly sensitive kids.

AMT: There's a lot of research around resilient children and vulnerable children. How are the categories of orchid and dandelion indifferent?

TOM BOYCE: I think what has been useful about this tendency that we have culturally divide children into vulnerable and resilient is that it has right to the foregrounded has caught the attention of the public, in a way that rings adversity and stress and challenge in kids lives to the top of the table. And that's all to the good. But we think that there are some errors that happen when we begin thinking about kids as vulnerable or resilient. One is we think of the resilient children as this very tiny group of kids who are so called Unbreakable children. They can face anything, natural disaster, marital conflict, anything that they are confronted with they will rise above. We believe that even the most dandelion of dandelions, under sufficient stress, will break and begin to have problems with health. But the most important difference is that we have identified this phenomenon of these very sensitive working children having either the best or the worst outcomes depending upon the circumstances that they're in. So it's not so much that they are vulnerable or resilient. It's that they are extremely sensitive, exquisitely sensitive to the character and the nature of the social environments that they're experiencing.

AMT: Why did you first become interested in looking what leads children and sometimes children from the same family to very different outcomes in life?

TOM BOYCE: Well to be honest with you, 40 years ago I was a pediatric resident in training. This is back in the days way before electronic medical records. And I noticed that children's charts they were either very very thin or they were these big fat thick charts and those were the kids that seemed to have all of the illnesses injuries and problems. In this I began to explore who those kids were and who the other kids were. It began to dawn on me that the kids with the charts were often either kids with major chronic disease or were kids whose families were undergoing major stressors and trauma.

AMT: That was long before people talked about their socio economic health effects on children. You were seeing it in real time.

TOM BOYCE: We were seeing it in real time and it turns out that these socio economic affects is really the single most powerful predictor of a child's health of anything that we have.

AMT: At the same time there's also a personal side to this story.

TOM BOYCE: There is I would have to honestly say it's the personal side of the story did not fully dawn on me until relatively recently, like maybe within the last 10 or 15 years. The personal side is that I have a sister, Mary, an extremely bright beautiful young woman who had a life in contrast to my own that was just riddled with difficulty with mental disorder. She had an unplanned pregnancy. She delivered a child who was birth asphyxiated then and became intellectually disabled. She had just almost every kind of traumatic experience that a young person can sustain. And she got through life. She was a great mom raising her daughter but she had a diagnosis of schizophrenia ultimately and a number of years ago committed suicide. And I have always been both troubled and fascinated by why two kids, born of the same parents in the same community had such different lives. I have had a life of almost embarrassing good fortune and my sister seemingly just the opposite.

AMT: Hmm. Where did you see the contrast in how your home life affected as kids?

TOM BOYCE: Well I like to say Anna-Maria that no two kids are raised in the same family. And what I mean by that is that no two of those children are going to have the same experience of that family. Their experiences will vary by birth order, by the gender of the child, by different generic variations and probably by these kind of gene environment interactions that we are talking about just a moment ago. So I suspect that my sister's experience of our family growing up was very different from my own.

AMT: Do you think with your research that things could have turned out differently for her?

TOM BOYCE: I do. And you know that that really is what I think of is the good news of this book that I've written. It is that the children that we worry about, the ones that we worry about most are sometimes those with the most extraordinary promise. And I think my sister’s life did have extraordinary promise. She was extremely intelligent. When she had her daughter in this unplanned pregnancy she was a graduate student of Harvard. And what I know from our studies is that under conditions of real support and genuine care these troubled childhoods of some orchid children can be transformed into lives that have this kind of exceptional health and remarkable accomplishment. And I think my sister could have had that kind of life.

AMT: So if if your sister is growing up today, somebody understanding what you're talking about they could actually help so that that outcome doesn't go there. That must be so bitter sweet for you.

TOM BOYCE: Yes it is. It is. You know it was a terrific loss for our family when my sister died. But I like to think that her life was certainly not wasted. She raised up a wonderful child who's now a delightful 40 year old woman with some disability, but living alone and doing reasonably well. And I like to think that this research as it has unfolded was a way of my sister’s life actually illuminating an issue in parenting and in the raising of children that is important for us to know about.

AMT: You have two children of your own. Don't [unintelligible]?

TOM BOYCE: I do yeah.

AMT: Are they dandelions or orchids?

TOM BOYCE: One of each. Both I'm happy to say doing exceedingly well. One is a young professor at a major university. The other is a pediatric nurse at one of our local children's hospitals here.

AMT: And they are is your daughter, right?

TOM BOYCE: That's right.

AMT: And so how did you and your wife try to make sure that she thrived as an orchid?

TOM BOYCE: By the way, if I could just say Anna Maria, I want to be sure that people understand that I'm thinking about these kids says like two buckets that we can put all kids into. It really is a spectrum from orchid to dandelion with a lot of kids somewhere in between.

AMT: Very important to say. Thank you.

TOM BOYCE: My daughter is not the most extreme orchid on that spectrum. The kinds of things that my wife and I did and pursuit to help her through her childhood adolescence were things like trying to identify her own true self as it emerged. I think one of the principal most important functions of a parent is to recognise what each individual child's true self is, as that child is emerging and allowing that expression of the expression of that truth self to come forth. I've mentioned routines in kind of predictability. Another strategy that I think of is the Latin word [unintelligible] attentiveness and love, all children need time from their parents and attentiveness and care but it seems to be exceedingly important for these very sensitive orchid children.

AMT: Imagine their parents listening right now who are thinking like the pennies dropping, as they think of their own children. I'm wondering what tips you have for other parents and teachers and doctors or anyone who has children in their lives about how to create an environment that supports orchid children.

TOM BOYCE: Some of the other strategies that we know seem to work both for teachers and from parents is celebrating in honoring the human differences between children. There are a lot of families where the differences between children are kind of glossed over and obscured intentionally. We know that orchid children need to be recognized for the differences that they have between themselves and their brothers and sisters. And imaginative plays is other strategy. I think of play as a kind of child's holiday from reality. We culturally tend to think of play as sort of trivial and frivolous. It is not. It is an extremely important activity for children, especially young children, it's where they learn social interactions. It's where more and more about who they are as a person. So imaginative play is to be encouraged as well. And then I think the strategy that is the hardest to master. My wife and I struggled most with this when our daughter was growing up is the balancing between-- you’re going to a point where an awkward child is not wanting to do something. Like let's say not wanting to go to a birthday party that there is going to be a bunch of kids that he or she doesn't know. You have to make the judgment at that point in time whether this is something that you really feel fairly certain that your child can master and can cope with. In which case the appropriate response is to nudge that child forward into the experience of mastery and discovering that he or she actually can do it. Versus the other response which would be to allow the child to withdraw based on the fearfulness that he or she has. That fine line between protection and encouragement is one that I think most parents with these highly susceptible children struggle with.

AMT: Does what works for an orchid works for dandelion?

TOM BOYCE: I would say that what works for an orchid, anything that is good for an orchid child is bound to be good for a dandelion child as well. So my environmental health colleagues talk about that if we could make the physical environment safe for children we would make the environment safe for everybody, because children are more susceptible than adults to the various physical toxins that they study. The same is true within families and orchid and dandelion children. If we can make a family or a classroom or a neighborhood safe and wholesome and encouraging for an orchid child we are in a sense making it all of those things for all of the dandelion children as well.

AMT: That what works for dandelion not necessarily work for an orchid.

TOM BOYCE: You get away with more with dandelions. There is more room for mistakes.

AMT: More broadly how do we need to shape our society differently?

TOM BOYCE: Oh my. I could go on about this. However I think the biggest lesson that we gain for society from this research that we've been pursuing, is a lesson that is exceedingly poignant powerful important especially for the society of my own country of the United States at the present moment. I think the lesson is that we do best as a society when we do best for those among us that are vulnerable. The other. There are strangers that are the marginalised people and children. And we as you well know are not doing a very good job of that in our society at the moment.

AMT: And what are the differences that you have found in your research tell us about children in on a more philosophical level?

TOM BOYCE: I think, on a more philosophical level, I think it raises the question of whether there is any human difference, any sort of thriving sustained human difference that can become an asset under the right circumstances. So you would think that this ultra-sensitivity to the social world would be a deficit. It would be something that a child would not want to have, if given the choice. But it turns out that under the right circumstances it isn't just neutral. It actually is a huge asset for a child. So I think philosophically the findings that we have raised the question of whether there are any human differences that are not able to be redeemed through the use of care and nurturance and support.

AMT: Well that's something so important to remember especially with children, right, so that people don't decide who they're going to be when there's so little.

TOM BOYCE: Indeed. Yes.

AMT: Tom Boyce it's really good to talk to you. Thank you for your work.

TOM BOYCE: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

AMT: Tom Boyce is professor emeritus of pediatrics and psychiatry at the University of California San Francisco. He's also the cold director at the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research of the child and brain development program and he is the author of The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why some Children Struggle and how All Can Thrive. He joined us from Berkeley, California. If you care to share your experiences as or with or nurturing a dandelion or an orchid, you know where to go to find us. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. Orchid or dandelion. Let us now. Coming up every province in Canada says it is illegal not to pay workers it except- and there is an exception and it's usually about students and internships. Students in Quebec say that has to and. We're going there next time. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

Unpaid internships hit female students harder because 'women's work' is devalued: expert

Guests: Laurie Bassinnette, Alexandre Frenette

AMT: Hello I am Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Why pay some people in engineering to do those internship and not our internship because it's the same.

[Protestors chanting in French]

AMT: Voices of protest from secondary students in Quebec who have been out of class on strike this week about 40,000 of them. They will be back on the streets today. Unlike the last major protests in Quebec, this is not over tuition the students want the provincial government to put an end to unpaid internships which, as in many provinces, are allowed under certain conditions. The protesters are calling for full salaries and standardized working conditions for all student interns. They argue that unpaid internships are most common in fields such as nursing, social work, education, areas where women dominate. Laurie Bissonnette is studying social work at the University of Quebec at Montreal and she has walked out this week and she's in our Montreal studio. Hello.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Hi thank you for the invitation.

AMT: So what are the rules right now? Unpaid internships are allowed for students, correct?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes exactly. Actually it's an exclusion from Quebec's labor code. So the code is saying that nobody can be paid during work except for students in internship.

AMT: Is this an internship that takes place within the school year or for a couple of weeks or is it something that goes on all year? What kind of internships are we talking about?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: So we're talking about kind of internship we have internship that are necessary to have your diploma but as well internship in the summer, or people coming from a country that on having the experience in Canada or in Quebec. We are asking them to do internship to do work for free to have experience, and so were claiming that this kind of internship are injustice and we should all be paid under the protection of the labor code.

AMT: Now some student interns are paid.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes. So what we see in our analysis is that some of the computer science, engineering, finance people are getting paid and they have protection during their internship. So we're just asking for the same for all the other programs.

AMT: Okay. Have you done internships?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes sir I did. Two years ago I did eight months full time entering ship in social work and I'm doing a master's degree so I don't have internship, but I am fighting for the next generation so they don't have to live in the same situation as me, and as a colleague that is really difficult to not be paid in working full time during eight months.

AMT: Eight months long.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes.

AMT: And you were working full time.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes.

AMT: And was that a requirement of the course?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes. To have my degree in social work I had to do this internship.

AMT: Okay and how are you supporting yourself during those eight months of not being paid?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: I am really lucky I had the help of my parents and what I'm saying is I recognize I had a really great privilege, as well it was difficult for me to do it is. So I really can't imagine for people that have kids, that have kind of situation, financially, they cannot actually do free work. So what we're saying is the education system is that accessible to people with low income because they cannot afford to work for free for eight months.

AMT: So you're looking at the payment but you're also saying the actual working conditions under the Labor Code have to be enforced for student interns well.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Well enforced yes. Well we don't have any protection right now because in the human resources of the institution where we do our internship but we are not under the rules of the university you are in the CEGEP because we are not in the institution as well.

AMT: So basic labor law like what? The amount of time you can work, your harassment, things that you would normally be ever complaining about that you're not covered?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes we are not covered. We don't have any sick days. We don't have any protection against sexual harassment. So what we say is that the internship fair will say that we're not employees the university or the CEGEP will say well there in not in a student kind of identity in the institution. And so we are kind of between the two and we don't have any protection at the end. So we were saying that it's impossible as a society that we don't take action to protect those members of more vulnerable to sexual harassment because they are in a status that is less recognized.

AMT: And tell me a little bit more about your own internship experience, the kinds of things, the hurdles you face that you have identified as unfair?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes so it is unfair. I mean everybody want to do an internship. I don't think people that are tracking right now are happy to not go in internship. We have to understand that we want to become social worker, we want to become teachers. What we are saying is that it's really hard to get to do this diploma we are asking yourself to do work for free and then to have to work in the night to pay our rent. So from my perspective I was doing full time internship. I was working paid job in the weekend and I was doing classes at university as well. And I was so tired and I was just trying to survive those eight months. I experienced sexual harassment from one of my colleagues that was an employee in my institution and didn't have the energy to go forward. And I just took some strategy with my colleagues to protect myself but I didn't know what to do because neither the university or the institution was kind of responsible for me. And so I was stuck individually to survive those eight months.

AMT: And yet the university says you have to do it. So shouldn't the university have some responsibility?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: So what they're saying right now because I did say to the university last year about the situation and what they say they could have ended my internship. But we have 210 people want to do their internship and it's kind of hard to tell someone that it has to end your internship and begin again next year. So we have to really be under the Quebec labor code. So that interns has to deal with it consequences if they're a victim of sexual harassment and any other interests of violence. But it's the field placement that should take action on the perpetrator.

AMT: I have a clip I want you to hear this is Nico Trocme director of the School of Social Work at McGill. Listen to what he says about how important internships are for his students.

SOUNDCLIP

They're fundamental because this is an applied profession, because so much of the learning involves integrating what they're learning in the classroom. What was your experience in the field of the internship play fundamental role. In fact the mooted Association of Social Work Education which is accrediting body for all schools across Canada, require a minimum number of hours of internship for any program to be accredited. The schools and universities don't have funds that would allow you to pay students. Many of the organizations where students are placed are already operating on a shoestring budget and wouldn't be able to pay them. If we were to turn around and ask those organizations to pay for the students to be there, I think we would lose a lot of internships that we have. Exclusive social work across Canada are struggling to find enough internships for students.

AMT: Laurie, he's suggesting that they would no longer exist if these organizations had to pay. How do you respond to that?

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Yes I agree that it shouldn't be the community services of institutions like hospitals that already have really no budget really cut. So what we're saying is we are in solidarity with the movement for better funding of the social services and their culture as well for their budgets. So it should be the government that should pay. So the provincial government that have the jurisdiction for labor and education. Right now we are already giving money for the interns. At the moment we are giving 70 percent of the salary for a computer science finance engineering internship. So we should just do the same with the other kind of placement fields.

AMT: And we did request an interview with the minister of education Jean Francois Roberge, he was not available. We received a statement from his office which said the government is sensitive to the concerns expressed by students and that the Minister "would like to offer concrete steps to better the working conditions of interns in Quebec" end quote, that he's actually looking into that. Do you see the government moving on this? The government has said that they've been looking at it for a while I think.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: So we are taking action since three years. Of course other politicians know about that issue. What we're saying is we don't have to study more, like study the issue. We should just remove the line that excludes interns from the law right now. I can't understand how the minister is comfortable to say that we have to wait for protection. I can understand how we should say that right now some people have sexual harassment, some people are living with violence in their internship and we should wait. Is actually saying in other interview that we should wait one year for to take a decision. What it was saying is we did compromise since three years and this is the compromise that we have made that we should all be equal under the law and that Quebec labour law for all interns and employees.

AMT: Okay Laurie Bissonnette thank you for coming in.

LAURIE BISSONNETTE: Thank you.

AMT: That is Laurie Bissonnette, she is a striking social work student. She goes to the University of Quebec at Montreal, she is in our Montreal studio. Well unpaid student internships are a concern even beyond Quebec. My next guest has studied how they're playing out across North America. Alexandre Frenette is a Canadian and the associate director of the Curb Center for Art, Enterprise and Public Policy at Vanderbilt University. He's working on a book called The Intern Economy and he joins us from Nashville, Tennessee hello.

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Hello.

AMT: What are you thinking as you listen to my last guest.

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Well I'm thinking that Laurie did a great job of describing the everyday realities of being a recent college or university graduate somebody trying to launch their career. It used to be that when you got your degree you pretty much had a job guaranteed, because so few people had a college degree or university degree. And today so many people have to do more to prove their employability.

AMT: And I'm looking at the sort of the federal provincial list here, and literally every province and count of us says that it is illegal to have people do work for you and not pay them. BC, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec are very clear in saying that and then saying however there are exceptions student issues with internships is one of those exceptions. It's unclear for Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Federally there are supposed to be no exceptions. So why does this keep happening? Why the exceptions there? What are you seeing?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Well interns as a category are rather special in a way. They're neither employees necessarily if they're unpaid. They're also there for educational purposes. An internship is supposed to be a practical educational experience. But in reality when you look at what's actually happening in the workplace, interns are both workers and students. So the law reflects a very ambiguous zone where are they supposed to go, a full provisions of the law in terms of protections, or are they supposed to be really seen just as students. Of course there is an exception for students on the law because if there weren't such exceptions students could sue their school, saying that I am working studying for an exam. That's not quite how it works.

AMT: Laurie Bissonnette was making the point that there are paid internships and she mentioned like computer science, engineering, finance. It seems to have fallen in areas where the gender lines dominate. What are you seeing in your research?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: I've seen consistent trends of gender bias in terms of the intern economy. I think many people have noted that there hasn't been significant gender wage gap in the economy at large. Usually we talk about how men are paid more than women for the very same job but a lot of that variation, a lot of that the difference is due to women's work being paid less then occupations or fields that are mostly occupied by men, like engineering. So that is part of the explanation. I think also to answer your question, there are other devices down form this arrangement that is really longstanding. One is at work it tends to be devalued, tends to be seen as something that is done out of caring, out of a labor of love. And type of work where it likes social work or education where the worker go to various kinds of non-monetary benefits from this work and that overall informs this very gender system.

AMT: So are you saying that the students both male and female then if they choose that that sort of caring and compassion work are being conditioned to have their work devalued even before they get out into the workforce?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Yes they buy into it. They're socialized into it from the start. And we see this in terms of the data I've looked at with these Strategic National [unintelligible] Project, a survey of over 200,000 Arts and Design alumni in Canada and the US, where we find certain fields within the arts like architecture tend to pay their interns and they tend to be mostly men, versus other fields like arts education tend to be mostly women and those are unpaid internships.

AMT: So when you ask the universities that actually have these internships under their you know on their need for students to graduate, when you ask some about this what do they tell you?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Well I really think they feel that constrained much like Laura described her constraints and others described the constraints of employers. We're kind of stuck with the system that has exploded over the last 15 to 20 years. The institution of higher learning think that internships at their best are excellent practical learning experiences. They also like that this connects them with employers helps their students find jobs later on and that's actually a big way that universities compare their standing to others. They feel that it's an important fact that their students get jobs within X months after graduation, but they're frustrated as well because many of these employees who are paid to supervise these internship programs are understaffed.

AMT: I have a clip I want you to hear and some companies do pay internships. Emily Hayes is a policy analyst with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

SOUNDCLIP

Most of our members do pay, and actually 67 percent of small business owners that we surveyed said that they have higher and higher order in 24 time after that position was sacked. So it's really a way for us not only to give you an experience in the world of work but also a way for youth to get connected to small businesses that are really struggling right now to find and train good employees. So everything from agriculture to retail, we have a lot of members in skilled trades in particular right now that are looking for skilled workers, and there is really a lack of skilled workers looking for jobs in construction right now. It really provides students with an opportunity to try careers out that they may not have even considered before.

AMT: What do you think of what she says?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Well makes a lot of sense on the last point. Even unpaid internships are one of the benefits that I can think of or certainly would be the career clarification element. You can figure out quite quickly whether or not you want to end up working in whatever type of environment where you intern. But also these programs that are paid internships are just very different. They almost shouldn't even be called the same thing, paid and unpaid internships, because often employers will see a ,paid internship program as a true pipeline a recruitment method for new employees or many other employers. There is a lot obviously within the unpaid intern landscape see interns as a source of cheap labor.

AMT: Do you have your own experiences with internships?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Yes. Well first when I moved to New York City before changing graduate school I had experienced funding and co-running a small independent record company. And I thought well before I go to grad school I work for a record company in New York, and everyone I spoke and I already knew pretty well said well you still have to intern to prove your value. Even though I very much knew a lot about the music industry. That experience stuck with me and so while I was a grad student I did three unpaid internships as part of my fieldwork to look at the unpaid intern landscape in the recording industry in New York.

AMT: And that got you wanting to write a book on it, it wasn't all good was it?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: It was not all good. A lot of people had great intentions along the way and that's part of why I try to capture is that this is more of a structural story to me where education, government and the interns themselves may all have the best intentions but the way the system is set up there needs to be a lot of work to make everyone more accountable.

AMT: Or what advice would you give to students on taking unpaid internships?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: So as a whole I would say don't take unpaid internships because studies have shown - including my own work with arts graduates - that doing a paid internship is linked to getting a job more quickly after you graduate in higher jobs, including higher income. Doing an unpaid internship essentially statistically, there's no real difference in terms of outcome compared to not doing internship at all. So as a whole that's my advice. But if one particular individual says I want to work in a music or media, I would say if you have to do an unpaid internship unfortunately. Well so there are other parts but I would say make sure that you are very clear upfront about the types of responsibilities that your have at that particular internship because there is some variation. Make sure that there aren't more than one or two other interns in your department at that particular time so that you have more face time with the employees. Ask those types of questions.

AMT: And what about those people who say this is actually an integrated part. We take you out of the classroom for a finite number of weeks and we put you on a workforce that's still classroom really that's just another aspect of classroom learning. And that's why you are paying tuition. What do you say to that?

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: The problem with that is, very often, what I have found is that institutions of higher learning do not always put in the right resources to make sure that this is an educational experience. Very often interns are sent out into the field without necessarily having the time in the class room speaking with faculty or others to connect with the experience with what they've learned previously. And so it's kind of like what another scholars described as having students read Shakespeare or their own time without ever talking about what they read.

AMT: Okay. Alexandra thanks for your time today.

ALEXANDRE FRENETTE: Thank you.

AMT: Alexandra friend that is an assistant professor of sociology at Vanderbilt University who's working on a book called The Intern Economy and he joined us from Nashville, Tennessee.

[Music]

AMT: I want to tell you about a story we're working on for an upcoming segment of The Current and it takes us to the waters of Haida Gwaii at the B.C. coast where divers are smashing thousands of sea urchins to bits every single day. It is part of a project aimed at restoring the waters kelp forest which is an ecosystem that is in deep trouble because of human activity which all began in the trapping of the sea otter. The sea otter was actually driven to extinction of Haida Gwaii because of the demand for pelts by European and Chinese buyers over decades and that has left the sea urchin with no natural predator. And they are voracious eaters of kelp. So now a group of people with divergent interests is working to see if they can reverse the damage. The Culling as much as 95 percent of the sea urchins in that area. This is a clip of Lynn Lee a marine ecologist with the Gwaii Haanas national park reserve and you're also going to hear Daniel MacNeil who is a shellfish biologist and a diver with the Haida Fisheries Program explaining what the seabed looks like and why those urchins have to go.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIEL MACNEIL: You go down. You get into an urchin that basically a wall oif urchins spine to spine, literally hundreds of them. You basically go down and you start popping into their shells. I prefer using a rake and a hammer because the rake basically gives you an extra foot of extension. I usually use the rake to grab the urchin and then you hammer both the shell open.

LYNN LEE: Because we have no sea otters, we have a very narrow band of kelp that's right along the shallows. And below that are a lot of urchins. So as Daniel mentioned the high density of urchins are right against the kelp, where their food source, the kelp is the most abundant, and so everybody has packed up there trying to get to the food source. And as you get deeper through the kelp forest, there's actually no more kelp and the agents have eaten everything that's settles. So are the sporesor a seed of kelp that they're all the little plants get eaten by the urchins as they try to grow and it looks like a rocky reef. It would be the equivalent of a clear cut above onland that people would be familiar with. Though there is not much more in terms of plant growth.

AMT: Well listen for more we will also be talking about urchinomics which is my favorite new word. Urchinomics. And you will hear more from Lynn Lee a marine ecologist and also Daniel MacNeil a shellfish biologist on The Current in the coming days.

DANIEL CARR: Hi. I'm Danielle Carr, one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Karin Marley, Alison Masemann, Samira Mohyedin, Ines Colabrese, Peter Mitton, Imogen Birchard, Julie Crysler, Jessica Linzey, Allie Jaynes, Sarah-Joyce Battersby, Julianne Hazlewood, and Cameron Perrier. Special thanks to CBC Montreal's Jennifer Yoon. The Current's writer this week is John Chipman. Our web producers are Padraig Moran, and Kirsten Fenn. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Shamhan Bhuiyan. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our presentation producer is Liz Hoath, and our documentary editor is Joan Webber. Our senior producers are Pacinthe Mattar in Toronto, and Cathy Simon and Geoff Turner in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Willow Smith.

AMT: That is our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q where guest host Ali Hassan is joined by comic legend Mary Walsh. She is accepting the Canadian Screen Awards Lifetime Achievement Earl Grey award later this month. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. Don’t forget if you miss something you've also got our podcast, all free from the Apple Store or Google Play. MySpace announced some bad news this week photos, videos, or files uploaded onto MySpace for 2016 have likely been lost for ever after a botched server migration. This would have been earth shattering news 12 or 13 years ago when MySpace was the biggest social media platform on the planet, bigger even than Facebook. Today, not so much. In fact many onetime MySpace users said online they didn't even realize that platform still existed. Despite its precipitous decline. MySpace once helped many up and coming musicians get their start and so today we're going to leave you with one of them. This is Lily Allen with Smile. I am Anna Maria Tremonti. Meghan Williams is here tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Smile]

Thursday March 21, 2019 Full Transcript

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