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The Current Transcript for March 15, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MAN: The next citizens to receive the MEV-1 vaccination are those born on the date... what is it? January 11th. January 11th.

MAN#2: OK. All right, 144.

MAN: Day 145.

MAN#2: Today is still 200... more than 200 birthdays, hun, that haven't been called, so that's good. That's a good number.

GIRL: What if they run out?

MAN#2: They're not going to run out. They have enough to keep up with demand. They said that already.

GIRL: Maybe I'm immune like you and I don't even need it.

MAN#2: That's not a chance we're going to take.

MAN: A reminder, everyone, stay 10-feet apart.

GIRL: So instead, we lose spring, we lose summer. There's another 144 days that don't happen again. Why can't they invent a shot that keeps time from passing?

MAN#2: It's going to start getting normal again.

MATT GALLOWAY: I think we all feel a little like Matt Damon's daughter in "Contagion". So much of that film feels eerily like what we've been living through this past year. It's realism from the terrifying spread of the disease to the spread of misinformation is due in large parts to the expertise of my next guest. Dr. Larry Brilliant was a consultant on that movie. He was also part of the World Health Organization team that eradicated smallpox in India in the 1970s. And today, with his organization Pandefense Advisory, he helps governments, businesses and nonprofits respond to COVID-19 and future pandemics. Larry Brilliant, good morning.

LARRY BRILLIANT: Matt, good morning, thank you very much for inviting me.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to have you here. I think, as I said, the clip from that film captures the mood of where we're at right now. And so everybody would be wondering what we hear in that film, when are we going to get normal again?

LARRY BRILLIANT: I don't think we should be thinking that we go back to pre-pandemic times, and it's exactly the same. Didn't Heraclitus say you cannot step into the same river twice [chuckling] because the water has changed? But if you're asking when will it feel more normal? It's as much due to the way in which we engineer the safety of places, schools and concerts and offices and... and travel. And that will depend a lot on how quickly we get down to the aspirationally five dollar, five-minute self-administered spit test that's 100 per cent accurate. And as important as the vaccine is they kind of work hand-in-hand. And I'd say we're getting there. Maybe maybe three to six months before we have that kind of a test. And maybe, you know, three to five months before there is sufficient vaccine in the developed world, in Canada, the U.K., Europe and the United States, so that any adult who wants to have the vaccine can get it. But there's a lot of caveats on that, that I'm sure we'll talk about in a minute.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think... I mean, in the run up to that, there's a lot of what people have been calling sort of vaccine exuberance, where people think they get the shot and then that's it, and they can get back straightaway to whatever they were up to before. As we get to that point that you're describing months down the road, what do you think the next period of time is going to look like?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Yeah bingo, you're just you're honing right in on the major question of the day. I used to remind people that when we get a vaccine, you don't get rainbows and unicorns. You get a vaccination program. Now, I'm compelled to say that when people idolize, fetishize, I think, the term herd immunity, it makes it even more difficult because we're never going to get to mathematical herd immunity. Let me say that again, as heretical as that is, we will never get to mathematical classical herd immunity. The math just doesn't work. Herd immunity is based on the transmissibility of the virus. It really implies when will there be no more susceptible people near a case of COVID such that the virus finds no more customers and then dies out. And we're not going to be reach that with all the variants' increasing transmissibility, with the number of people that are immunocompromised and cannot take the vaccine, children too young to get the vaccine, anti-vaxxers who refuse to take it. So we won't get there. We won't get to the 85 per cent or more that we will need. However, the more vaccine, the fewer are susceptibles. The fewer susceptibles, the slower the path of the virus. The slower the path of the virus, the more we're able to mount an effective outbreak containment program to find each case, to isolate the contacts and the contacts of the contacts and vaccinate the contacts of the contacts. And we will be doing that. So that kind of normal life, it's not... that's not so bad if you think about where we've been. It'll look a lot like yellow fever looks like today. We have it in the world. It's horrible. It kills people. But you don't wake up every morning thinking about it and having such depression and... and despair because of it. I would just mention to the listeners that in... in our Summer of Love in 1967, which was sort of, you know, the peak of the counterculture, then it really was rainbows and unicorns. But as much as we cavorted, there were two-and-a-half million children dying in that very year from smallpox. This is a pandemic. It's everywhere all the time. It's in our face. We're simultaneously bored and terrified. That feeling that will dissipate over the next six months. I'm hopeful. I'm prayerful [chuckling] that will be the case.

MATT GALLOWAY: How have you held up in this? I mean, it's been hard for all of us. And I think we all... we go through these waves, right? Where I'm OK today, maybe yesterday, not so much. What about for yourself? How have you been getting through this?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Well, I lived for a while in a Himalayan monastery, and my spiritual life is so intertwined with work to fight viruses from smallpox to polio, to blindness, to pandemics has been for me sort of my path. So I'm OK. I'm the lucky one. I get to do something every day that is that I think is useful, and I can make a contribution. I worry most about the people who don't have something to do, and every day they wake up only with the reality that they've lost a loved one, that they can't hug their grandmother, that their kids can't go to a proper school, that they feel powerless in the face of what is an invisible enemy that you can't taste, you can't see. And that, I think, is the hardest part in the first-world. In the rest of the world, we have to remind ourselves that if we were to meet two years from today, they would still be two, three, four-billion people who had not been able to get the vaccine. And their lives will get more and more complicated. Their period of despair will be longer and more intense than ours. And we've been damn selfish, including my beloved Canada, which has ordered six times as much vaccine per person as will be required. And America, my country, which is ordering at least three times as much as we need. So we... we need to understand that as bad as we feel, I don't want to make the joke and say it's first-world problem, but it is a first-world problem.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much of what we have seen over the course of this year tracks to what you were expecting as somebody who has been warning about something like this for many years?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Well, I think that two things don't track. I mean, almost everything tracks with what, not just me, I mean, a dozen, two dozen, three dozen epidemiologists who've been saying the same thing for... for 20 years. I think for all of us, the virus, the fact that it's spread by the respiratory route, the fact that it emerged from an animal to a human, the fact that it then went person-to-person and spread like wildfire and has affected 200 countries. That... that... that we all predicted, wrote about, did movies about, did talks about. What surprises me are two things. First one, one about the disease. I'm astounded not just that it goes nose-to-toes, as the saying goes. You lose your smell, and you get COVID toes. But it appears to, in one instance, be a respiratory disease terribly affecting the lungs with a cruel kind of pneumonia, and then affecting every blood vessel and creating a microbe vasculitis that is systemic, so it means every organ is touched. And then, in a almost cruel afterthought, taking the very immune system that has protected us from it and turning that immune system on itself almost like an autoimmune phenomenon that can last six, seven, eight, nine months. Indeed, one-third of people who had COVID a year ago still have it. That was really unexpected. As far as the epidemiology of it, that is as expected. The only thing I would say I didn't expect. If you see the movie "Contagion" or all the things that were written about it, we never for a moment consider it an incompetent government response. We would joke Steven Soderbergh, who was the director, Scott Burns, who was the writer and the other medical advisers with me, that if there were any reason to have a government, a national government, this is the reason. [laughing] And if there were any reason to have a World Health Organization and a United Nations, a pandemic was it. And we relied on that kind of quaint belief system and never, ever, for a moment considered an incompetent, a corrupt, a disinterested government, as we had in the United States. And I would say the nationalist movement around the world makes it so much harder. Again, I'm not going to opine on whether it's a good or a bad thing, but nationalism, provincialism, it makes it really damn hard to do anything globally. [chuckling] And when you have a pandemic if you're all in it for your own self, how on earth can you stop it? [laughing]

MATT GALLOWAY: Does that speak to... I mean, you've often talked about the importance of early detection and early response in controlling a pandemic. Why was it that some countries failed to do that with COVID-19?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Well, I think it's, first, it's human nature, denial and to not take seriously something that seems so once in a lifetime. This is the worst pandemic in at least 100 years. It hasn't played out yet. So we... we know it's at least as bad as 1918. We don't know if it's going to become worse. In medical school, you're taught if you hear hoofbeats, you should expect to see horses, not zebras. And this pandemic is a zebra. That said, if we had not in my country dissembled the place in the Security Council, the position for bioterrorism and emerging pandemic diseases. If we hadn't maliciously, I think, underfunded that function inside of CDC, which is our... our gem. And in Canada, I think you guys have underfunded GFIN, which was the... the alert system for the whole world. So it's not just the U.S, and it's not just Canada. All over the world, we became complacent. As medical science increased, our ability to treat diseases has gotten so much better than it did 100 hundred years ago, we've gotten comfort in our ability to react to outbreaks and not prevent them. And I think we've let down our guard. The price that we're paying now is in two-million deaths worldwide. I can't imagine that number not increasing tenfold before we're done in the world, at least.

MATT GALLOWAY: Wow!

LARRY BRILLIANT: I hope... and it's a terrible thing to say, but I hope we learn our lesson. This surely is not the big one. It's not the last one. We need to be really careful that we devote all the attention we can to stopping this one now worldwide and then preventing the next one. And if we don't do that, I hope listeners and scientists and government officials will hold us to account and force us to make sure we have the tools to combat them.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that this is not the big one. What does the big one look like?

LARRY BRILLIANT: You know, smallpox killed half-a-billion people in the 20th century. The 20th century was 22 years ago. So from 1900 to 1980, more than 500-million, half-a-billion, people died of smallpox all over the world. Smallpox killed one out of every three who got it and had a infectivity probably double that of COVID, or at least one-and-a-half times that of COVID before the variants made COVID more transmissible, more contagious. So starting from smallpox, if we're thinking about what could happen, which is probably not the thing to be doing in the middle of a pandemic that's bad enough already. [chuckling] But if we had a respiratory disease, and the big one would be probably a respiratory transmitted disease, and if it had the death rate of smallpox and the speed of transmission of measles, that, I think, would be to me my greatest fear. When I was at Google, we used to say that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. These mRNA vaccines are indistinguishable from magic. And the race between the virus and the vaccines, I think, is a tie, which is pretty good given the head start we gave the virus. I think the big one is the one that would win that race. And that... that's... that's what probably keeps epidemiologists up at night.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think we have learned from what we've gone through this year that would help us keep the big one or a bigger one at bay?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Here's my hope. After the Second World War, I think when we saw the skeletons coming out of Auschwitz, and the firebombing over Dresden, and the mushroom clouds over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think humanity realized that our playing around with... with matches and going to war with technology and letting loose an evil demon that we'd gone too far. And we... we almost silently vowed never... never again. And we created the United Nations Security Council, the World Health Organization, the FAO, the ILO, Bretton Woods, the World Bank, this alphabet soup of acronyms that tied us together in a spirit of sisterhood and brotherhood. And that held for 70 years. That held us together. We had centripetal forces bringing us together, the fear of another Holocaust, the fear of another massive loss of life from wars, where technology could go with nuclear weapons. We gave up a little bit of our sovereignty, each of us, as people and as governments, to bring us together. And that's what allowed us to eradicate smallpox, to conquer the first disease in history to be eradicated, to lift that one burden of suffering. That moment is different now. And today, I'm afraid we don't face those forces that bring us together. I'm afraid we face centrifugal forces that tear us apart. I'm hopeful, and maybe I'm naive, [laughing] of course, I'm naive. Couldn't have gotten this far if I wasn't a bit naive that looking at a pandemic, understanding that in virus's mind, we're all just meat, that our genome is 99.9 per cent the same as the person we think we hate. That that moment of at-oneness, of comity with a t, not a d, will make us want to work together to recreate these institutions that have gone long in the tooth and need to be refreshed to bring people together. And if we have differences, to either celebrate them or talk them out. But to use this terrible moment that we all share, a disease that is killing us, and harming us, and taking away our hour of the joy of our life and vowing never to let that happen again, never again. And we could do that. I think it was Carl Sagan who said it was only the imminent arrival of an alien species in a spaceship that had better weapons than us [laughing] that would bring us together. Well, I nominate COVID [laughing] for that... for that title.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that... I mean, when you said at the beginning that we're not going back to... or we shouldn't go back, perhaps, to the normal that we remembered, is that what you're hoping for? That whenever we get out of this, that there will be something... we'll figure out a different normal or a better normal?

LARRY BRILLIANT: Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. I mean, we will figure out how to get on a plane together with 200 strangers whose immunity status we don't know. And we will have islands of safe, immunized, happy people in the midst of a world that will continue to not only get sick from these variants but will in fact be the place that the variants are created. We haven't yet seen the Syrian variant, the Zimbabwean variant, the... the variants that emerge from failed states or countries that just don't have enough money to keep their public health system or medical system going. So we'll continue to ping-pong back and forth. The disease will change its superficial face so that it eludes our vaccines. And our countermeasures will get better and better and better at that. That... that drama will continue. That will be the new normal. But my hope is that the philosophers amongst us and the religious community among us, and the people of faith and vision will force us to confront our feelings as human beings and as societies. My hope is that it reminds us of why we... why we wanted to explore the globe, why we wanted to meet people different than us, why we wanted to understand the puzzle of human nature. And so... so, yeah, I'm I'm naive. But John Lennon was right. There's a lot of dreamers.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Larry Brilliant, thank you very much.

LARRY BRILLIANT: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of your program. My... my Canadian friends tell me that it's the best thing around. So thank you for allowing me to join you on "The Current".

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr Larry Brilliant, epidemiologist and CEO of the Pandefense Advisory, which advises on pandemic response. And he was part of the team that eradicated smallpox in the 1970s. Your CBC News is next. And then, the person in charge of Canada's vaccine delivery, Major General Danny Fortin, joins me to discuss where Canada is at and getting everyone vaccinated. Plus,.

WOMAN: It feels like, over this last year, it is more important than ever to get together with that group of friends and just have that time to talk and listen and just be together, laugh. [the crackle of a fire]

MATT GALLOWAY: You hear that crackling? It's been a long, cold winter. And our next half-hour, we'll hear from people who've been gathering safely outside during this pandemic to enjoy the warmth of a fire and friends. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" we're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

The race to vaccinate Canadians; our history of gathering around fires

Guest: Danny Fortin

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. My name is Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Mohamedou Ould Salahi was held in Guantanamo Bay for 14 years without charge, wrongly accused of being the head recruiter for al-Qaida and one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks. His story is now being told in the new film "The Mauritanian Hamidou Odzala. He joins me in 30 minutes to talk about his detention and life after. But first, commanding Canada's vaccine rollout.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: We keep hearing that vaccines won't end this pandemic, vaccinations will. Major General Danny Fortin is the person making sure that happens. In November with almost 30 years experience in the Canadian armed forces, he took on a new role, vice president of logistics and operations for the Public Health Agency of Canada. The job, to make sure the millions of doses Canada has purchased are getting out all across this country. Major General Danny Fortin, good morning.

DANNY FORTIN: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Throughout the winter, we got a small number of vaccines and then some weeks we got none at all. How many vaccines, as of this morning, are on their way?

DANNY FORTIN: We have over four-point-three-million vaccines distributed. More vaccines coming this week. We have 444 Phizer vaccine entering the country today. And that's that's our slow week. Next week, it's one-point-two-million in addition to another 800,000 of Moderna. So next week, it's two-million vaccines with with those two alone. So we're very... we're in a... we're in a very good glide path for a significant increase.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are many people across this country, public health experts and doctors who are working in the front lines, who believe that a third wave of covid is coming. Yesterday, there were more than 1,700 cases in Ontario alone. And there are Canadians who are asking where the urgency is in our vaccination effort. What would you say to them?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, the first thing I would say is, you know, look at a year ago, where we were a year ago, there was no vaccine in sight. We just entered this global pandemic, and efforts to develop a vaccine were not believed to yield the results that we... that we have... I mean, so fast. And project yourself months forward into the December timeframe; vaccines are coming to Canada. We had the first Canadians vaccinated 14th of December. And everybody wants a vaccine, of course, and rightly so. People want a vaccine as fast as possible. They want a safe product. And they want it to arrive in masses. And they expect governments to roll this out as effectively as possible. The reality is, though, we're in a marathon. We can't look at this as a series of sprints. Of course, we're... I'm not suggesting to slow things down. What I'm suggesting is let's not get hung up on the fluctuations of production, the real challenges in logistics, distribution across the country, this country with the population density it has in the middle of winter, I mean, everything is a little bit complicated, to say the least. And the projections are increasing across the world. This is a product that's in high demand, the different types of product. And I think, all in all, we're doing very well if you look at it for me as objectively as possible, given the challenges that we currently face.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just on that point, I mean, it's interesting that you referred to it as a marathon because there are public health experts who've said that we're in this foot race now between the vaccines and the variants. Do you worry about that?

DANNY FORTIN: You know, it's a marathon in the sense that it's millions of vaccines distributed in this country alone over a what turns out to be a reasonably short period. I mean, we'll have Pfizer, Moderna vaccines as previously announced in a contracted window between December and September. We'll have will have received 84-million vaccines of those two alone. But it's also a race. It's also a race with, in addition to public health measures, ensuring that we protect Canadians as rapidly as possible by introducing this vaccine. And the more people vaccinated early, in addition to other public health measures, will get... will make Canadians safer.

MATT GALLOWAY: The prime minister has said a number of times that he wants every Canadian who wants a vaccine to get one by the fall. The general in charge of Ontario's roleout, Rick Hillier, says that he wants every eligible Ontarians to have a vaccine by the first day of summer. Are those timelines realistic?

DANNY FORTIN: I think all those timelines are realistic if you look at the projections. If you look at the number of vaccines coming, and we're always subject to fluctuations in production, and there could be... there could be issues that are beyond our control. But we're coming out of a period of reduced availability with Pfizer and Moderna as they retooled and reorganized their production lines. Just the numbers that I... that I shared with you a minute ago indicate that we'll have enough vaccines for every Canadian to get a vaccine by September. Could this... could this be achieved sooner? Possibly. I think as other vaccines are approved, and we now have two more approved, as they are approved by Health Canada and made available, we could possibly meet that objective sooner. But I'd be speculating right now as to put a date down. I think by September is certainly safe. And then we'll see from there in this marathon where we... where we go and how fast we get there.

MATT GALLOWAY: As you mentioned, there are a number of factors that are out of your control, including the production of these vaccines. How does that impact your planning?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, we work in close collaboration with the manufacturer. And, you know, our... our vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are euro-sourced right now, and it's it's subject to the European Union export licencing process. We have had no issues with that process. It's... it's... but it's additional... additional work. So there were some concerns initially, but there was.. this whole process is working smoothly, reasonably smoothly, and we have not seen any interference or any issues with our shipment. As more vaccines come online, they can come from different locations and this is all part of our... of our diverse portfolio and diverse vaccines from diverse locations to iron out any wrinkles that we have in the distribution and the availability of vaccines globally.

MATT GALLOWAY: The vaccines getting here are one part of the solution. The other part, in some ways, is getting the vaccines into the arms of Canadians. Do you think that the provinces and territories are going to be ready to vaccinate more than a million people a week once we start getting those bigger shipments in April?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, the provinces and territories assure us that they have the people, they have the skills, they have the equipment required, but we worked in partnership, and we continue to do so to ensure that they have all the equipment they need. You know, in the federation, provinces and territories are responsible for health care, and they're responsible for their immunization plans. So, you know, we work closely together to ensure that we... everything that we can do federally is done in terms of providing them with the predictability that they need to plan properly. So that's very much been the focus of my job here, ensuring that we have the distribution run as smoothly as possible, but also share numbers, build confidence with provinces and territories that, yes, we... we are closely coordinating. We are... we are confident, the manufacturer assures us of those quantities on these... on these days and so on, so forth. And then the co-chain enabling equipment, you know, to ensure that we have robust supply chain across the country for those products that require also low-temperature storage or cold storage or frozen storage. So all of that reprivatization ensuring that we have the right equipment in the right place, as well as a syringe and other supplies. That's... that's the work that we focus on to ensure that everything we can do to help provinces with the things that we're responsible for that is done as effectively as possible.

MATT GALLOWAY: And is your expectation that when they get the vaccines... when the provinces and territories get the vaccines and they go straight out the door, or is there any reason that there would be doses waiting in the freezer, for example?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, I'll bring you back to what I said before. It's a marathon. So... so it's both a race to get vaccines out to people, but it needs to be done smartly. I'll give you some examples. I know... I'm confident that vaccines arrive and they are quickly distributed. That being said, there are places in this country where you need to be a little bit more sophisticated in your approach. You actually need to line up personnel, the charter aircraft, the... the get the right people, the equipment and... and the product at the right place in some of the most remote and isolated corners of this country in the middle of winter. So lining that up might mean that vaccines are put in storage for several days and a couple of weeks, three weeks, four weeks, so that you get to that remote location and then bring the vaccine to that location. So those quantities, all in all, are pretty... pretty small. And I'm very confident, and that's certainly what the provinces are sharing with us, fairly confident that there's a good roll out of vaccines in their jurisdictions. Nobody wants to keep vaccines in... in freezers for any... any longer than necessary. But... but there has to be a logical way of ensuring that you have the right supplies and that you can maintain the tempo across the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you doing to get everybody rowing together? There are a lot of different entities that all have to be on the same page, from provinces, territories, levels of government, the military, drug companies, FedEx. How are you getting everyone to speak the same language?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, I think the job of senior leaders, military or civilian, is to build trust. And you... you have to ensure that you overcommunicate at times. That the different stakeholders have an opportunity to be heard, share best practices, share concern and... and really pay attention to some of the little problems. With some of the little problems solved, we'll really get us through this this vaccine rollout as effectively as possible. And, you know, whether it's repositioning, you know, freezers or ensuring that we have this capacity that is offered in terms of volunteers or in terms of storage space or a new piece of equipment, make sure that we pay attention to it, that we, you know, get people to talk to one another, get their province energized by ensuring that this... this item or this... this offer is linked up to them so that they benefit from that. They may not... they may not have a complete line of sight on those different things. So that's... that's very much about ensuring that we all talk and share in protective of or respectful, I would say, of a respective jurisdiction. Not get in the province of space, per say, but ensure that we have a collaborative approach as the best we can.

MATT GALLOWAY: The military has a huge responsibility in this. And there has been a lot of turmoil in the Canadian forces recently. Three chiefs of defence staff since January, the new chief of defence staff resigned after being appointed over allegations of sexual misconduct. The former chief of defence staff also facing those allegations. You're working closely with the military on this rollout. Have those problems had an impact on the work that you're doing in this vaccination rollout?

DANNY FORTIN: Well, not only do I work closely with the military, I am still active, and I am seconded here with a small team to the agency. So I'm... I'm... I'm part of the military, but I'm detached here to the agency. The Canadian Armed Forces have supported the COVID response efforts to include the vaccine rollout significantly. So that was a significant part of our work in the last year. I would simply say this. This type of behaviour is completely unacceptable. Members of the military deserve... on the battlefield, you should feel safe that the person next to you had your back. And that's not unique to the battlefield. You should be.... you should feel safe at home as well. This type of behaviour is completely unacceptable, and we're paying attention to it. Notwithstanding all of these stories, I guarantee you that the leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces pays attention to this kind of problem, and it's just unacceptable and frustrating.

MATT GALLOWAY: You sound troubled by this. I mean, as somebody who has a 30-year career in the military, you sound troubled by those allegations.

DANNY FORTIN: I am troubled.

MATT GALLOWAY: Major General Danny Fortin, it's great to speak with you about this. I really appreciate the work that you're doing. And I appreciate having the opportunity to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

DANNY FORTIN: Well, thank you very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Major General Danny Fortim is heading up the federal government's COVID-19 vaccine rollout. He was in Ottawa. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

JENNIFER DAVIS The Fire Pit Pilot Project was started in November of 2020 and is still ongoing. You know, it was launched to make it easier for citizens to enjoy an outdoor fire pit with their household. As soon as fire pits were made available, they were booked up. As a result, we added more fire pits.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jennifer Davis is the city of Calgary's winter city business strategist. What started as the city's idea to give people a way to get together, safely and outside, sparked a lot of interest.

JENNIFER DAVIS We're getting approximately about 200 bookings a week. And as of today, we've issued more than 1,800 fire pit permits and bookings and continue to encourage citizens to use their own propane fire pits in Calgary parks or green spaces.

MATT GALLOWAY: And it turns out that Calgarians aren't alone. People across this country have been gathering around the fire during COVID. And so while spring is yes, indeed on the way, some are still sharing in the warmth of an outdoor flame with friends and family.

[feet crunching in snow].

WOMAN: We're supposed to get a lot of snow tonight?

WOMAN#2: Yeah, like 10 centimetres.

WOMAN: All right! We're supposed to go skiing tomorrow, so that's perfect.

MICHELLE CICOTTE: My name is Michelle Cicotte, and I live in Whitehorse, Yukon. [crinkling of paper] We've been having a lot of great fires at our place with friends and neighbours. And we have a book club that's been gathering at the fireside over the last year as well.

[fire crackles and voices ring out]

MICHELLE CICOTTE: Well, we meet about once a month, and since we're not able to gather inside right now, we've been meeting at my fireplace or at other friends fireplaces. And basically, people bring their chairs, they bring snacks to share, and we meet and talk around the fire.

WOMAN#2: It often makes me feel very hearty. We are sitting out here at minus-15, like I have hearty friends. We are a hearty bunch! [laughing].

WOMAN#3: [a strong gust of wind] during a wind or a snow advisory advisory. [laughing all around].

WOMAN#2: I didn't realize that! So yeah, we are hearty. We are out here. And we come in for the companionship and the comfort, I think.

WOMAN#3: Yeah it's very comforting. And I think the fire adds to that. It adds to the comfort and experience.

MICHELLE CICOTTE: I guess it feels like over this last year, it is more important than ever to get together with that group of friends and just have that time to talk and listen and just be together, laugh.

[a car door closes and footsteps echo]

MAN: Hi, guys.

WOMAN: Hi!

MAN: Welcome. Have you been here before?

WOMAN: A while ago, yeah.

MAN: Oh, OK. And are you... do have the fire pits booked?

WOMAN: We do!

MAN: Great. So the Orchard Pub over there is where you check in and get your skewers and dips and such.

ANDREW PEN: This is Andrew Pen, one of the owners of Bilston Creek Farm in Metchosin, BC. We're a lavender farm on the edge of the Salish Sea at the southern tip of Vancouver Island. During the summer, we had to pivot from what we would conventionally be doing to try and adapt to COVID we're in agritourism. People come to the farm, and they typically come in large groups, weddings or coming to watch distillation of lavender oil or dinners. And, so in this instance, we needed to spread everybody out. So we offered picnics in the orchard under the apple trees. And we had such good response from people that when it came to be wintertime, we thought, well, why can't we try and replicate that outside in the winter? We're Canadian; we can deal with this stuff. So we thought instead of people sitting on the grass under an apple tree, we'll get them... give them some cover, give them a fire and keep them warm. And they can roast things on the on the fire.

MAN: So what's in... what's in the kitchen?

ANDREW PEN: So there's homemade marshmallows, which are lavender marshmallows. There's chocolate. And then there's the graham crackers.

MAN: Oh, our kids don't eat marshmallows or chocolate.

ANDREW PEN: Oh, don't they? That's a shame!

KIDS: Yeah, we do! [laughing all around]

ANDREW PEN: They just eat brussel sprouts and...

MAN: Broccoli!

ANDREW PEN: Broccoli and brussel sprouts.

KIDS: No!

ANDREW PEN: We could do a special.

MAN: Special! [laughing]

ANDREW PEN: Customers have reacted really well to the whole prospect of having some time with their bubble out together, outside in a safe environment.

ANDREW PEN: So, hi, guys... how... what's brought you to the farm today, to the fire pit?

WOMAN: Well, today is my birthday.

ANDREW PEN: Oh, wow! So my friends have booked this! Considering it's COVID, we need to social distance, but also still try to find creative ways how to have fun. And so we came to the farms, and it was the best experience because I've never been out here before.

ANDREW PEN: Oh, that's nice. What is it about a fire pit pit that you like?

WOMAN: Well, it's cosiness, togetherness, and it's just really a nice way to socialize.

[Music: Ambient]

MICHAEL CHAZAN: I think there's something that draws us to experiencing fire that we control, that we create. And there's something very powerful about that. It's something that really draws us in. Hi, my name is Michael Chazan, and I'm a professor in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Toronto.

[Music: Ambient].

MICHAEL CHAZAN: Fire is one of the critical components of human evolution. It's... our relationship to fire is a key aspect of how we came to be who we are. And I would argue this is still a process that is going on. [a fire crackles] Fire is a really fundamental force in the world and one that humans have been engaging with for about two million years.

WOMAN: We are a social club that just happens to call ourselves a book club, really. [laughing all around] Like that's --

WOMAN#2: Yeah, it's true.

MICHAEL CHAZAN: In terms of social life, I would say that fire gradually comes to play a role in anchoring a sense of place. So fire and maintaining fire, and then also the social life that takes place around fires, is terribly important.

WOMAN: I do... I do also just love conversations around the fire. Like, I do also think, you know, even the continuity in the comfort of getting together is uplifting. But being around a fire at any time of the year is really a different.... I feel like there's a different kind of connection. It's... this winter, there's been a lot of it, like I've done this a lot more than I normally would have in any other winter. And I had sort of forgotten that it's a year round thing.. [chuckling from the group] And I'm really grateful to remember that we can still do this in the depths of winter.

MICHAEL CHAZAN: [a fire crackles] What I do feel is that at some level we are evolved to engage with these invisible forces like fire. And that there's something very satisfying about that. So it's not a kind of sense of, oh, I feel that I've return to my essence. But rather that I'm engaging with something that comes naturally and that feels right.

ANDREW PEN: And then here's another question, when COVID'a over, is it still going to be something that's on your radar? Does it kind of create a new type of enjoyment that... that we've kind of forgotten about?

WOMAN: Totally. I think it changes the whole dynamic of how people enjoy time with each other and space outside and reconnect with, you know, the things that are actually important, nature, and... and friends, and fire really, you know, is important. And marshmallows!

ANDREW PEN: And marshmallows! [laughing].

ANDREW PEN: It brings out in people this notion that the fire is somehow primordial, that gazing into the embers is mesmerizing. And it helps you drive away your fears and anxieties.

MICHAEL CHAZAN: In this moment of the pandemic, it was actually news to me to learn that people are being drawn to go outdoors and stand by... around the fire. But it makes complete sense to me. I think standing around the fire, you feel a solidarity with other people, even if you're six feet away from them. It's a way of feeling that you're experiencing something together. And I think that's wonderful.

ANDREW PEN: Did you enjoy your s'mores? Did you enjoy your brussel sprouts? [hearty laughter all around] Next time, we're sorry, we'll get them for you. [ a man laughs deeply]

MATT GALLOWAY: We've all been trying to figure out ways to cope. And for many of us, that has been being outside in the freezing cold with friends safely around a fire. Is that familiar to you? Jane McCullough just sent me a photo as that was airing from being around a fire in St. John, New Brunswick, this weekend, eating s'mores. Let us know whether the fire pit has helped you over the course of this pandemic. You can reach us at: The CurrentCBC on Twitter. Or email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, accused of being a terrorist, Mahamadou Ould Salahi was held at Guantanamo Bay for 14 years without charge. Now, his memoir of that time is the subject of the new film, "The Mauritanian". In 90 seconds, Mahamadou Ould Salahi reflects on his ordeal and life after Guantanamo. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Mohamedou Ould Salahi tells his story and of his wish for Canadian milk

Guests: Mohamedou Ould Salahi

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

MAN: They made me.

WOMAN: They made you as in they coerced you?

MAN: What do you think?

WOMAN: I don't know, you tell me. They coerced you? [ man shushes]. But you got to tell me what happened, Mahamadou.

MAN: You ask me to set fire to this place, but I'm still standing. [banging the table]

WOMAN: Well then write it down! All right, that's what the pages are for. Write it down. You need to tell me the truth. You need to tell me what happened to you. I can't defend you. Do you understand that?

MAN: I don't need to tell you nothing! Whatever I say, it doesn't matter! I'll die here!

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a scene from the film "The Mauritanian". The film is based on the memoir "Guantanamo Diary", written by Mohamedou Ould Salahi. It is the story of a man wrongly accused of being the head recruiter for al-Qaida and one of the masterminds behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Mohamedou Ould Salahi was a prisoner of Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. military prison on the Cuban coast for 14 years. A warning, our conversation will cover difficult subject matter, including torture. Mohammed Ould Salahi, hello.

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Hello, thank you, Matt, for having me today on your program.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you for being here. Your memoir, you wrote in Guantanamo Bay, you handwrote it while you were in prison. It was a book. Now it's a movie. What is it like seeing this story go out into the world?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: I mean, I cannot describe to you in words how blessed and amazed I feel that, you know, the voice of a very lonely and silenced man in a cell in Guantanamo Bay could go this far.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to start your story in 2001. It's just after 9/11. You were taken from Mauritania to Jordan, then to Afghanistan and then finally to Guantanamo Bay. What were you told about why you were being detained?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: So I will start a little bit over a year earlier when I was kidnapped from Senegal on January of 2000, way before 9/11 attack. It was a joint operation between Canadian intelligence, U.S. intelligence and Mauritanian intelligence who cooked up a plan to lure me away from Canada in a place No Man's Land, what I call No Man's Land, where there is no law, nothing. So I could be tortured and forced to admit to whatever they thought I'd done. And when I was taken to Mauritania, I was interrogated. There wasn't enough evidence linking it to the infamous Millennium Plot that was foiled at the Canadian-American border. But they decided this is not a good guy. We will take away his passport and keep him in Mauritania completely outside the rule of law. And when 9/11 came, they said, OK, now we are taking you away. And there was no specific accusations. And through all of this, they kept jumping from Millennium Plot to 9/11 as a recruiter, so-called mastermind. And then they cooked up a completely different plan that I was supposed to do. That is attack against CN Tower in Toronto. And then thus began this very painful journey.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned that you're lured from Canada. You are living in Montreal. What happened when you were living in Montreal?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: When I came in Montréal, first, I was already flagged through a phone call that I received from my cousin Marfil, who was a very close friend to Osama bin Laden, I was flagged then. And the police came to the imam in my city in Germany. They told him there are reports that I could be a bad guy. I freaked out. And then I said, where else to go? I want to go to Canada, a country known for the respect of the law, respect of human rights and civil liberties. I went there. And as we say in Mauretania, I fell from a cliff into a well. Canada proved to be much worse than Germany when it comes to completely swallowing every bit of garbage that this U.S. intelligence fed them.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you mean?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: So when I arrived there, this person who I heard, later on, went to the same mosque as I did, he tried to cross Canadian border and harm innocent human beings in the United States. And America said, OK, I was the one who sent him. Mind you, I never met this man. I don't know him. I never heard of his existence. And as far as I'm concerned, we never physically were at the same time in the same mosque. And then Canadian bought into this story. But they couldn't find any evidence, obviously, because there was no evidence, there was nothing. And I just felt terrified. And I sought asylum in the mosque. And then Canadian and American Mauritanians said, this is a bad guy. We need to get out of Canada. They talked to my mother in Mauritania. Told her to call me and tell me to come back because she's sick. And, of course, I would come to my mom when she called me back. And that's it.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned your cousin. Your cousin was a close friend of Osama bin Laden. You were in Afghanistan fighting with al Qaeda against the communist government in 1990, and then you left that group. Why did you leave al-Qaida?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: When I went in 91 and early 92, I went there for a couple of months, twice. I didn't know al-Qaida. I didn't know anything. No one knew. Al-Qaida then was not a terrorist organisation. It would take many years. I think seven years after I left Afghanistan, until the world declared this organization, those Mujahideen, a terrorist group. And when I went there, I didn't like what I saw. I thought this is like a fight for freedom, for dignity. But what I saw was a civil war. And then I just said, I don't want to be part of this. I went back and resumed my life. My cousin stayed there. Which I respected, you know? That's his decision, after all. But we had still family connection, you know? And to this day, we are still family connections. Not this strong anymore, but it's a family. And he was linked to the 9/11. And it turned out he was not part of 9/11, even. You know, he was just like friend to UBL. And they didn't agree on this sort of violent acts. That's on record, actually.

MATT GALLOWAY: As you mentioned, you were flagged by authorities. And the U.S. government ultimately thought that you were a top recruiter for al-Qaeda. What did you make of that accusation?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: You know, it was very painful. I mean, sitting there in that very dark, very scary room in Guantanamo Bay with an FBI agent sitting in front of me and telling me I was responsible for. The death of 3,000 innocent human beings. That I cannot describe to you how many nightmares I had. And at one point, I was thinking this is impossible. That I didn't do it because why they always told me I did it? They must have some kind.... I must have blacked out or something.

MATT GALLOWAY: So you started... you started to doubt yourself?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Yes, absolutely! And I had nightmare. I would go back to my cell. And I had those horrific nightmares about that, people and people who get hung, people bleeding, and without the provision of false intelligence from the Canadian side, this would never have taken place. As the sergeant told me one day, hadn't you in Montreal, you would never have seen the inside of a Guantanamo cell. Because he had this cream, tea and sugar, explain to us why did you ask for tea and sugar? And I kept telling him I lent him sugar. He was like, wrong answer, back to torture. And then when I was when they told me my mother was going to be kidnapped, and they insinuated she would be sexually assaulted. I had nothing to lose, nothing.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you mean tea and sugar? Can you explain that to me?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Absolutely. So when I was in Montreal, you know, I was like enjoying the life. I enjoyed the country. You guys have like milk in a four-litre carton. That's I never seen this before, you know? And then we have this like I used to live with my friend. We went to the same university in Germany and he moved to Canada. And every night, like, we make tea and we invite freinds to tea. So this one night I didn't have sugar. And I asked the guy on his way to go to one of those stores to pick up sugar. And then so Canadian apparently intercepted this communication, mind very ilegally with no warrant, and then they give to the Americans. The Americans said those people don't come to drink tea. Those come to make bombs and plot against the United States. And I was like, you guys flatter yourself to much. You see, all you think about is America. It was like ridiculous.

MATT GALLOWAY: So they thought that when you're talking about tea and sugar, you were talking about something else?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: That is correct. And you know what? When they threatened to kidnap my mother, I said, you're right. I was talking about explosives. And then I wrote them a detailed confession, of course, false confession about what tea and sugar meant, about how we mix explosives. This is horrific. They know that I was innocent.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you were in Guantanamo, and you've hinted at this, I mean, the United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld allowed the use of torture against detainees in Guantanamo. And this is something that you've written about. This is something that you've spoken about, and it's depicted in this film as well. I'm sure it's difficult to... to talk about. But what did you go through when you were in... in Guantanamo?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: It's very hard to describe in writing 70 sleepless nights. No sleep. They used to say no sleep for terrorists. And I used to listen to this very odd expression. And I always wondered, what does terrorist really means? Because back home where I grew in literally a dictatorship, they used these to crush political dissent, to crush peaceful people. Ironically, after 30, 40 years, the same word terrorism is used to collectively punish people, to arrest people outside the rule of law and to eliminate any political dissent, any call for democracy, any call for human rights, and call for political participation. And it's just amazing, 70 days, and they use many, many methods. One of them that most painful is what they call water diet. Every hour, they wake you up and they give you a litre of water. The doctors came to me later on and they say those people are not professional. You could have died just from water, very dangerous. And then, of course, sexual assault, like on three different occasions. And beating, I broke many ribs, you know, they always kept telling me I need to explain to them my part in the Millennium Plot and my part in 9/11, and I just get stuck. But the only image, innocent image that was burned in my head is when those two cops in plain clothes presented himself in front of my door in Mauritania, No Man's Land, no law, no warrant, no judge, nothing. And they take me away from my mother, who stood behind me that as I drove off and I could still see the movement of her fingers, touching the prayer beads and praying and blowing the prayer. And she disappeared forever. I never get the chance to pray on her grave. I never get the chance to bury her. I never get a chance to watch her for the last time. [sniffle]

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you think that you were going to get a fair trial when you arrived in Guantanamo Bay?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: The first sergeant looked at me one day, and he told me, 760... that's what they called me. I had no name. I was just a number. He told me, look at yourself. Look at your face. Look at your orange jumpsuit. Look at the way you speak. You have no chance in American court. [chuckle] You know, I took in what he told me and I knew that was very right, that I had no chance in a court of law in America. Absolutely no chance. I mean, the jury does not know me. You know, all they know that I look like the people they see in "Homeland", you know, the show. And they see the bad terrorists in the movies or their wanted most FBI list. You know, this is psychologically very, very heavy on me when I know there is no fairness. But you know what? I decided I'm not going to be silent. And I decided to take pen and write down my story. And I decided to take the risk to testify on my own behalf. And I was the only detainee who Justice Robertson granted petition.

MATT GALLOWAY: Granted the position in the film of your story, Jodie Foster plays your lawyer, Nancy Hollander. Nancy Hollander spoke with the CNN's Christiane Amanpour about the first time that she met you in Guantanamo. Take a listen to this.

NANCY HOLLANDER: I went in, I met him, walked in, and he put his arms out as though to hug. And then I... he didn't move. And I realized he was shackled to the floor, walked into his arms, and he said there were two of us there. And he said, my lawyers. And that's how it started.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why did you do that? Why did you open your arms for a hug?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: I was so happy, you know? I was so happy. And those were the first civilian people I met in four years. Four years, I never met civilians. And so... and I was so happy, you know? I used to watch... when I was younger, I used to watch like "Law & Order", and watch "Married... with Children", you know, on German TV. And this is like the image I have of America. And now that image is coming back. There is a lawyer! You know, the small guy has a chance! Small guy has a fighting chance! And I was just so elated. I want just to hug them. But they were briefed that I a scary man and I could harm them, you know, all of this life was... [a child bables] Sorry, sorry, that's my child!

MATT GALLOWAY: How old... how old's your son?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Next month, two years. Ahmad.

BOY: Baby shark!

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Baby shark?! We cannot play baby shark. I'm on Canadian radio. Baby shark is going to be big problem now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Would you have ever imagined when you were in Guantanamo that I'd be talking to you and you would have your child on your lap asking you about baby shark? I mean, the difference between the life you have now and the life that you had then is immense. Could you have ever possibly imagined that you were going to get free?

BOY: Baby shark!

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: I cannot describe to you in words how happy I am. And, you know how happy I am, I just want like to fly just like a bird, and just thank everybody, you know? Thank all those people, you know, who worked so hard against the odds. You know, I'm just a simple person, a simple bedouin from Mauritania. And I had my scholarship to Germany. And I just want to come back to Mauritania and work, or like live in Canada, you know, a free life. And then I was like taken to Guantanamo Bay. I thought I'm dead. I already made my peace that I would never see the day of the light or like they killed me. You would never meet a woman you can touch. But now, I'm living, you know, a normal life. I'm talking to my lawyers in Canada, and they are inviting me to get back to Canada, promote my book, promote my movies and just tell Canadian people I love you guys. And yeah, life's good!

MATT GALLOWAY: Can you explain... just go back, can you explain why you were ultimately freed from Guantanamo Bay? How did that happen? I mean, you have a lawyer. You mentioned the confessions that that you had to make after torture, confessions that weren't true. How are you ultimately freed from Guantanamo?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: The U.S. government knew back in 2005 that I was absolutely innocent. I repeat, at least in 2005, we have a record that all agencies unanimously agreed there is no evidence that I did anything against the United States or any of its allies, for that matter. But I was kept. They kept because they saw in me a witness. They don't want to embarrass themselves. But when I decided to speak, I think honestly that hadn't I written the book, I would have been still a number in Guantanamo Bay. Absolutely. You know, democracy dies in darkness, as they say. And as long as we let the oppressor tell our story, we will not be able to see freedom or to be who we are.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned that you didn't think you would have been in Guantanamo. You would not have been detained had it not been for Canadian authorities. Who do you hold responsible for what happened to you?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: I hold the responsible two entities in Canada, the Canadian Secret Service and the Canadian Mounted Police, instead of protecting me as a landed immigrant in Canada ensuring all my rights, they threw me under the bus. But honestly, I was partially responsible. Why? Because I should have known better. I should have gone public. I should have gone to a lawyer, you know? But I grew up in a military dictatorship. And, to me, the police were a sign of fear and oppression. And even though I was grown up but just, you know, my childhood came back and I was just scared and afraid and I just ran away. And this, like, made them even more suspicious.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you want from Canadian authorities?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Only one thing I want them to... to admit the part. You know, and I forgive them 100 per cent. I don't want anyone to go in prison. I don't want them to give anything. I just want them to invite me, to say, Mohamedou, we stood off the wrong side of the bed. You are welcome back to Canada. This is like your country. And we are sorry that this happened. That's it. That's all I want from Canada is to restore my reputation.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about from the United States? I know that you've written a letter to Joe Biden, the president of the United States. What do you want him to know?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: I want Mr. Biden just to uphold the rule of law and treat us in this part of the world, i.e., Africa, the Middle East, as a human being. I want him to shutter Guantanamo because Guantanamo Bay is disrespect to humanity, disrespect to the values of the United States of America. And I believe in... in... in him. I really think he's a good man. And I think he's going to close this Guantanamo Bay once and for all.

MATT GALLOWAY: Your story has gone all over the world. What do you think the lesson of your story is?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Democracy works. Dictatorship and authoritarian regimes do not work. And I say this because Guantanamo was built, because a lot of people in the U.S. government really believes that democracy does not work. They like this, take the bad guy, torture him, get the information, save lives. This couldn't be farther from the truth. What bring justice is the law. Not breaking the law. You cannot apply the law by starting breaking the law and committing heinous crimes using. That's all, you know, I want to see.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mohammadu, it's good to speak with you. I really appreciate hearing your story. Thank you very much.

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Thank you so much for having me. And god bless you. And love you, canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: Will you come back to Canada? Would you ever come back to Canada?

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Today, before tomorrow, absolutely. I want to walk those the streets again. And I want to buy a four-litre carton of milk.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you very much.

MOHAMMED OULD SALAHI: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mohamedou Ould Salahi's story is featured in the movie, "The Mauritanian". It's based on his memoir, "Guantanamo Diary". He joined me from his home in Nouakchott, Mauritania. In a statement to CBC News, CSIS and the RCMP would not comment on the case. And said they do not confirm or deny the specifics of their investigations. That's it for "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "q". Earlier on in the program, I spoke with Dr. Larry Brilliant, who... I mean, you'll pardon the pun here. He has had a brilliant life. He was on the team that eradicated smallpox in India. He is an Internet pioneer, helped create one of the first online communities before things like social media really took off. He consulted on Hollywood blockbusters like "Contagion". He's also a Deadhead. Back in the day, he toured around with the Grateful Dead. And so we will leave you with a little bit of Grateful Dead on "The Current". This is "Touch of Grey". I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: “Touch of Grey” by The Grateful Dead/Rock]

March 15, 2021 Episode Transcript

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