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The Current Transcript for March 22, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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I've been an advocate of much more proactive testing, and for that reason we're going to need millions and millions and millions of tests. That's what I feel and that's what many of my colleagues feel.

MATT GALLOWAY: As the spread of COVID-19, grows, so too do the requests for tests for this virus in the United States. The demand for tests far outstrips the supply, despite promises by Vice President Mike Pence that anyone who wants one can get one, it's a much better story here in Canada. In 30 minutes, a look at why and why getting this right is so critical in tracking the spread of the coronavirus. Also this morning, how much time you spend on Twitter? Probably not as much as Donald Trump. Probably not as much as Daniel Dale spends fact checking with the U.S. president, actually tweets. Daniel can thank a post by the filmmaker Michael Moore for that.

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And I got like 10,000 retweets. I got tons of followers from it. And I'm seriously like, oh, my God, I have to do this every day now.

MG: In just over an hour, the Toronto born CNN political correspondent talks about being Donald Trump's lie detector. With the premiere set to meet with the prime minister in Ottawa this week. Are national affairs panel awaits to talk about a teetering economy, a plea for action and the prime minister's response. That's where we start. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

National affairs panel on fighting coronavirus

Guests: Hannah Thibedeau, Shachi Kurl, Kathleen Petty

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The reality is that the number of people affected by the virus around the globe keeps climbing. Canada has been fortunate so far. We have not seen a drastic spike in the number of cases reported. But I know that people across the country are worried, worried about their health, worried about their aging parents, worried about the kind of impact this virus could have on their job, on their business.

MG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking this morning. An unusual announcement to try to deal with uncertain times. Between a dramatic drop in oil prices and the COVID-19 epidemic, some people fear that Canada's economy could be slipping over the edge. Opposition politicians and others are questioning whether this country is equipped to cope. And so with that backdrop, the prime minister spoke about supports for people and businesses affected by COVID-19. This as he prepares to meet with the premiers on Friday. There is a lot to discuss with our national affairs panel. Hannah Thibedeau covers politics for CBC. Shachi Kurl is executive director of the Angus Reid Institute and Kathleen Petty is executive producer of CBC News in Calgary. Good morning to you all morning.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Morning.

SHACHI KURL: Good morning.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Good morning, Matt.

MG: The prime minister announced a 1 billion dollar aid package. Let's have a listen to some of the details of what he said is coming.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The fund will provide $200 million to support the ongoing federal response to the virus, including more money for things like surgical masks and face shields, increased capacity for services to indigenous people and other federal health care responsibilities, and for continued public education efforts to Canadians. It will also invest $275 million in additional funding for research and medical countermeasures, including vaccine development and support for clinical trials. On the economic front. Our government understands the disruptive impact the virus is having on businesses and workers. That's why we will waive the mandatory one week waiting period for employment insurance to kick in. We're also introducing, among other things, special measures under the work sharing program to help employers who fall on hard times due to COVID-19.

MG: Hannah Thibedeau, it was an interesting and quick announcement. And the prime minister saying, as we learned last night, that he would be speaking this morning. What else did he say?

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Yes, I think one of the big things is for employees who may have to self isolate but don't have funding or will still get a paycheque from their employer. So one of the big things there is that they're waiving that one week EI insurance time. So it will be no wait times for that. If they have to self isolate, then they don't have a fear that they won't have cash to pay their bills to get their groceries, those types of things. And one of the big things that the prime minister was trying to do there is by saying that no employee should be worried about losing their job if they self isolate. So they'll still have some form of cash. And he also said no business should have to lay anyone off. So he went on to say, if this $1 billion response fund still isn't enough, they're still open to doing more. And he does also add that even though, you know, it's a 26.6 Billion dollar deficit this year for 2019, 2020, he says the government still has room to do more if more is needed.

MG: Shachi Kurl, you've been researching what Canadians were expecting from the government. What did Canadians want to hear from the prime minister?

SHACHI KURL: Well, look, right now, Canada is a big old stress ball, right? You've got 50 percent of Canadians worried about friends, family members of the community becoming sick. Just less than that, 40 percent, you're talking about tens of millions of adults in this country, Matt, who are worried about falling sick themselves. Two thirds say that they expect the Canadian economy to take a hit. And nearly half say they expect themselves personally to take a financial hit, whether it's through investments, market jitters, or because of the spectre of lost work. So this morning, what the prime minister is able to do is to communicate to Canadians that, look, help exists. There are measures. There's not a lot we can do. I mean, be on social distancing. And as the prime minister and everyone else is saying, wash your hands and don't shake hands and do things like that. But, you know, in terms of practically slowing the spread, it's already in communities of major cities. It's here in metro Vancouver. It's in Toronto. It's in other places. So what can the government do? It can signal that there is help coming and now it comes down to delivery. So will the transfer of funds to the provinces, will the delivery of medical equipment be efficient and timely? Today was an opportunity for the prime minister to look literally to represent the office of the prime minister and really sort of do the job of P.M. But the devil really lies in the operational details.

MG: It's interesting your research found that three and five Canadians that you polled are washing their hands more often.

SHACHI KURL: They are.

MG: Maybe the message is getting through. Kathleen Petty The language that Justin Trudeau used was interesting. He said we're on it and we're pulling out all the stops to ensure that Canada is at the forefront of this fight. What do you make of that language?

KATHLEEN PETTY: Well, his language actually was one of you know, we're listening to the experts deferring to the experts, which is in contrast to what we've seen in the United States to a great degree. He talked about global consultation, about special committees. You know, the screening, the testing, the experts. And, you know, his delivery was a little less breathy then sometimes can be better. You know, I would suggest also that the provinces are sort of helping with that. That sense of calm as well. I'll give you a stat. It's super interesting. So the rate of COVID-19 tests per 100,000 population in Alberta, 46.2 percent. In the United States, 2.6 percent as that March 10th. And so I think, you know, we've got these as chief medical officers of health coming out every day. I mean, it really is a coordinated response that we're seeing here and coming out. And I think people have a lot of confidence in them. I think one knows where this is headed for sure. The trajectory is unclear. The numbers, as the prime minister pointed out, are still low. But he made it very clear not only that he's got a billion dollar response today, but that he's quite prepared to see that number grow. And I know a lot of people have suggested that we're looking at many, many billions of dollars, but you don't want to roll it all out at once. You want to be seen to be putting money in a targeted way as the need arises. But also in a proactive way so that you don't look like you're reacting.

MG: What about the need in Alberta? The premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, said on Monday that we are in unchartered territory and it feels like there's a lot happening all at the same time. Kathleen, from the COVI-19 to the drops, a significant drop in oil prices and the concern that that has led to what are people in Alberta? What were they looking for?

KATHLEEN PETTY: Oh, you know, I don't know that they're necessarily looking for more than what they probably heard today from the prime minister. Honestly, I think they're going to be more interested in what they're going to hear from the prime minister after the he meets with the premiers. And as we know, Jason Kenney is travelling to Ottawa. His list is as long as it's ever been, but it's now growing. And we you know, I was listening to the president of the Treasury board yesterday on power in politics, suggesting that there is some kind of, you know, conversation going on between Pompeo and Freeland about things that the market in North America. I'm not including Mexico here in the U.S. and Canada can do to try and protect the oil and gas industry. I don't know what that is, however, because I asked a lot of people what governments can do. And none of them are too clear.

MG: Where does that leave, Shachi, I want to bring Hannah back in and in a moment. But where does that leave this issue of what's happening in Alberta in particular is the sense that this is a national issue? Can it be rolled in in some ways with the concerns around COVID-19, or is that a separate regional issue? Do you think, for Canadians?

SHACHI KURL: Well, it's been an ongoing issue, particularly in western Canada, around, you know, the the the policy push and pull and tension points around energy and the environment. How do you balance ensuring that our oil and gas industry and fossil fuel industry, which still represents, by the way, 10 percent of Canadian GDP is is getting to market, while at the same time acknowledging that over time there's going to be a need to change, too, and transition to a more sustainable, cleaner economy. But guess what? If you're a householder in Calgary who has been through the last 10 years, lost three of five jobs over the last several years, trying to keep your head above water, you can't even sell your house because that market never really bounced back. And all of a sudden now there's a conversation about market jitters due to COVID-19, Canada once again, finding itself caught between a proxy conflict between, you know, the United States, Saudi, Saudi Arabia, as a U.S. ally, of course, and Russia around oil prices. Again, there's a sense for people in Alberta that here are factors beyond our control. And again, if you are that householder in Alberta, the last thing you really want to hear about right now is, is transitioning to to a different kind of economy. You really are more focussed on, okay, how do we get through the next three months?

MG: We saw this flare up in the House of Commons earlier, just in terms of whether this would be a non-partisan issue, Hannah, or whether people would actually take the opportunity to have a shot at a minority government and figure out whether there were cracks there in the armour that they could exploit. Is the sense that the prime minister has shown some leadership in speaking today about this, but also kind of telegraphing that there's perhaps more to come.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: I think when it comes to the COVID-19 situation, opposition parties have to be very careful with their rhetoric. And the reason for that is Canadians are afraid and they don't need more fear in their lives when it comes to this. So they are being very careful how they're approaching it, is saying, well, you know, in times that were good, the government overspent. So they're saying, look, they are running these huge deficits in the $20 billion range. That isn't a good idea because it leaves little stretch for the government in cases like the crash in the oil sector. Also, when COVID-19, is causing jitters in the market. But what we're hearing from the government they're trying to reassure people is, look, we have that room to still manoeuvre. And that's what the prime minister was saying today. Look, they have that $1 billion response. They say they can do more. We had the premiers last week coming out and saying we're going to need help for this COVID-19 issue. And he came out today with 500 million dollars for the provinces and territories, for the health care system and to help with the COVID-19. But in the oil and gas sector, I think there's a little bit more vulnerability when it comes to going after the prime minister on this issue.

MG: As with questions as to whether the budget would even be delivered, delayed. What is your sense?

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Yeah, that's a really good question, because right now we had heard different dates. We heard potentially before the Ontario budget, which is the 24th, that I'm not sure that's going to happen. I think they need more time. And even today, the prime minister was asked about what the COVID-19 response is doing to the budget. And he says that don't worry, it is having an impact, but they still say they're in good shape fiscally.

MG: Shachi had mentioned that the Canadians are worried and Canadians are concerned. And you have research out this morning talking about that. What did you learn about how Canadians are feeling the brunt of ours?

SHACHI KURL: Well, there is certainly a heightened level of concern and anxiety, no doubt about it. So we've been tracking this issue since the Coronavirus, what this subsequently named COVID-19 started popping up on the national and the international radar. You know, four or five weeks ago, Canadians were more inclined to think that the situation was overblown. Fewer were inclined to think that they themselves were going to get sick. They weren't as worried about friends, family, elderly relatives. That's changed. Three in 10 are saying today that if they have already paid for international travel, a trip overseas, that they would cancel. And so these are significant findings in that what it shows us as Canadians are more engaged on this. They're more worried. And interestingly to Hannah's points, what is remarkable is how politically divided we are on this, which you would think in a situation where you've got a public health crisis or a public health situation, that it is almost beyond political. And yet, for those who are on the anti Trudeau side of the political spectrum, for those who tend to vote conservative, far less likely to say that the federal government's been doing a good job handling this file, far less likely to say that they have confidence in the in the federal government to handle it. And interestingly, far less trust in public health officials, in politicians and the media in terms of the information they're hearing. And that's critical. So, yes, well, I think it has been canny and savvy and wise for the government to put people like Theresa Tam and Bonnie Henry out there every day to be communicating as clinicians. They have the highest level of trust, but they're vast, vast differences between who Canadians trust in terms of who's doing the talking on.

MG: Kathleen, what do you make of that?

KATHLEEN PETTY: Well, first of all, it's just an indication of how much our public discourse has deteriorated. And that should worry and alarm all of us, particularly at a time when we need to talk to each other and trust each other.

MG: That even in a moment of crisis, people are still sniping at each other.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Absolutely. I think it's it's concerning because if we can't figure it out under circumstances like this, you know, what hope do we have for each other? And I think that is why I emphasized earlier. I think a lot of people are you know, I think they'll be happy to hear that the federal government is committing money in very targeted areas and indicating they're prepared to invest a lot more. But I suspect a lot of people are looking to local officials for calm and in guidance. And I think largely we've seen that happen, and again, these are not politicians providing that calm. These are our officials. But as the economy, I mean, that's on, you know, the medical front and people trying to stay safe. I think the larger question of, you know, our economic viability and the challenges ahead. That's where we better figure it out.

MG: People have defined this, Kathleen, and in some ways as some sort of existential crisis for the prime minister's government, that this is his first real - there's been a lot of things that have come on his plate - but this is his first real test of leadership. How important is it for him, do you think, to get that that tone, if not the message, to get the tone right in this moment?

KATHLEEN PETTY: I guess what I wonder and you Hannah will have some insight into this is, you know, part of it's his tone. I think his tone is actually, you know, based on my observation, pretty good. I think it's more about the tone of the opposition parties. You know, it's about through the whole all the ingredients. And that's to put together and how people respond to that when people are afraid, the last thing they're interested in is listening to politicians sniping and each other trying to score points.

MG: Shachi, go ahead.

SHACHI KURL: I guess I would also say that, you know, Canadians do tend to respond positively in situations like this to a leader, to a prime minister who comes out sort of sounding serious and sounding intentional and sounding like he's doing his job. And we saw the prime minister's approval tick up, certainly seven points, which is a big jump for him in the wake in the aftermath of the Iran plane crash that killed 57 Canadians and left so many more families here reeling. And it was the seriousness of the tone. It was the sombreness of the tone that really resonated with Canadians. We then saw his approval tank 10 points as as they watched him deal with or not deal with what was going on with the blockades around coastal gasoline. So it really depends on sort of what prime minister they're seeing in which situation. And that will have an impact on how they respond. So he actually I mean, everything's political from a political standpoint, he has an opportunity to to hit reset a little bit after what had been a pretty rough month on the energy file.

MG: Hannah?

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Yes. Just quickly on that. When it comes to the health care side of this, I think they have done a remarkably good job because they have the experts out there and they're not relying on politicians to answer those questions.

MG: Unlike the United States.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Unlike the United States, where Donald Trump is coming out and often giving wrong information, incorrect information, I think that's really important for journalists and important for Canadians to sit there and get the facts and not have politicians try to squirm around those facts on the economy. That is where his true test will be.

MG: Particularly when people are talking about a recession.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Yes. Recession, losing their jobs, not being able to buy food, pay their rents. So this will be a good indication as to whether he is successful. If this one billion dollarpackage so far reassures Canadians who may have to go into self-isolation, that they won't lose their jobs and that they will have a paycheque.

MG: And this will be a preview perhaps of what comes in a budget if when the budget.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Can I just point out, though, that people are going to lose their jobs, not because they're going into isolation. That's the bigger problem that he's got to address. People are going to lose their jobs because people are going out of business,.

MG: Because people aren't flying, because they're not travelling.

KATHLEEN PETTY: You got it. Exactly.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: People who are going on vacations, they aren't going on those vacations anymore. Maybe there's a stewardess or something that doesn't have their job anymore because they've cancelled those trips.

KATHLEEN PETTY: And we're not stopping oil and we're not yet sending revenue to Ottawa.

MG: Shachi, you're just about to say something?

SHACHI KURL: Oh, it's just sorry. Just saying that. Yes. To to that point, tourism represents a massive sector of our economy, particularly in the cities. So, again, that's young people and we're already starting to see signs of it. You know, the cruise industry is talking about the impact. We've we've already seen layoffs by the airlines are cancelling routes. And, of course, all of that has a knock on effect all the way down, right down to the folks who are working the Tim Hortons at the airports.

MG: The anxiety is real. We will see whether the comments this morning by the prime minister are enough to assuage some of those concerns. Great to speak with you all. Thank you.

SHACHI KURL: Thanks for having.

HANNAH THIBEDEAU: Thank you.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Thanks, Matt.

Hannah Thibedeau, senior parliamentary reporter for CBC News. Shachi Kurl is executive director of the Angus Reid Institute. And Kathleen Petty, executive producer of CBC News in Calgary. And the host of a great podcast called West of Centre. The CBC News is next. And then started with shortness of breath, then fever, then tremors. And by then, New York resident Robin Shulman wanted to be sure. So she started looking for a test for the coronavirus.

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And then they came back and said, we are not going to test you. You still don't meet the criteria. You should just go back and go about your life.

More on Robin story. The demand for coronavirus tests and what's different in terms of getting those tests. In the United States versus getting them here in Canada. That's coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Designated COVID-19 testing sites will be vital to curb outbreak, take pressure off ERs: specialist

Guests:

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. Think of him as a human lie detector focussed on the U.S. president.

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People were tweeting like he lied his way through that speech, but no one was itemizing this. No. You know, he wasn't making its way onto the nightly news.

MG: Trump Fact checker, Daniel Dale coming up in half an hour. But first, testing for Corona virus.

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VOICE 1: My brother has been trying for days to get tested. Eight days of fever after coming home from Asia with no screening at the airport.

VOICE 2: My fever is now above 100. The ERs in urgent care sites, have no tests. The closest ER asked me to hold when I called and then punted me to a recording about COVID-19. I'm a doctor. I know we are not prepared.

VOICE 3: I called to primary care doctors. One told me they don't know where to get testing. The other one told me to go to an urgent care or ER. I called the hospital. They do not have tests, but transferred me to a Covid-19 hotline to answer my questions. The lady with the hotline was very kind, but I was told I do not qualify for testing.

MG: Those are just three stories on social media from people in the United States who say they're having a difficult time getting tested for COVID-19, and they don't appear to be isolated incidents compared with countries like South Korea and Canada. The U.S. is lagging behind on testing rates. Robin Shulman recently tried to get tested. She's a writer in New York City. Robin, hello.

ROBIN SHULMAN: Good morning.

MG: So this all starts when you fly in from New York to Toronto. What happened?

ROBIN SHULMAN: Well, I landed in the Toronto airport in a section of the airport that seemed very quiet. The only other flight coming in, apart from mine, was a flight that was arriving from Shanghai. And so in the immigration area, I was in the section with about 100 people who had just come off that Shanghai flight. And we were all touching the same touch screens to to answer questions from customs. And then we were all waiting in line together for immigration clearance and passport checks. Rattled me enough that a few days later when I came down with a cough and then after that shortness of breath, when I was just walking down the street, I would get a bit out of breath. I kind of decided to pursue health care in a way that I probably wouldn't have if I hadn't been in contact with people who were coming from a place where there was a chronic virus epidemic.

MG: So then you flew back to New York City. So what did you do? I mean, again,, shortness of breath and you have a bit of a cough. You're not feeling well. What did you do?

ROBIN SHULMAN: Well, at first I just went to my primary care doctor. I have an immune disorder and I have two kids who are in school and I just wanted to get checked out. So I went to my doctor and I ended up seeing a nurse at the practice. And she listened to my lungs and said that there was no cause for concern. She didn't hear any signs of an infection. And that reassured me. And she told me that I shouldn't have come to that practice if I had any fear of Corona virus. I should have gone directly to the hospital. But she also didn't seem too concerned about Corona virus. And so that reassured me, too. I certainly didn't want to overreact and panic. But I just wanted to get checked out. So I left that appointment feeling much better and thinking I probably just had a chest cold. And I continued doing my normal activities. And then a few days after that, I got a fever. And that's when I started to worry again. So wasn't as high as it might be with the flu, but it was high enough to make me worried. And I decided I should just get tested for a coronavirus.

MG: And so how did you go about doing that? What is the next step in New York to go and get a corona virus test?

ROBIN SHULMAN: I called the New York state hotline because I wasn't sure what to do next. My doctor's office told me to go directly to the hospital if I was concerned about coronavirus. And I wanted to ask at the hotline what I should do. And the person on the hotline asked me a few questions about my history and then directed me to go to the ER and told me to call ahead. I called ahead to the ER and the person who answered the phone at the hospital nearest to me, Mt. Sinai Hospital in Manhattan, asked me a few more questions about my history and again said, come on in.

MG: When you get there, given the fact that you called ahead and said that you wanted a corona virus test, how were you greeted?

ROBIN SHULMAN: I was treated the same way as anybody else standing in line to get their I.D. checked to be triaged by the triage nurse. And then I was sent to wait in an open area, and then I was sent into a private room. So they seem to be trying to isolate me a bit until they could assist me further. And then two health care providers came in wearing gloves and a mask and asked me some questions. And then the attending doctor came in without wearing any sort of protective gear. And he offered his bare hand and shook my hand and said something like, I don't think you have coronavirus. And he sent me home and he said, you know, take care of yourself as you would if you were, you know, if you have a cold or the flu and if you feel sick, don't go out. And if you don't feel sick, go out. And he also told me that the hospital had a very strict criteria for testing and that was having been in our country, that is an epicentre like Italy or Iran or China. And because I didn't meet that criteria, I wouldn't be tested. And I went home. But that night, as I was putting my 6 year old son to bed, he started crying for no reason. And I looked at him and he looked flush. I felt his forehead. And he had he seemed hot. And I he had a fever. And earlier that day, I had asked my mother to take him to an appointment. And she's 76 years old and has respiratory problems. And she's in the prime demographic for concern about Corona virus and I felt like I had potentially exposed her without really knowing what it was.

MG: And so were you ultimately tested?

ROBIN SHULMAN: I went back to the hospital. They again refused to test me. They wanted to test me first for flu and other illnesses. And if I tested negative for that, I would be tested for Corona virus. They gave me the panel. It came back negative and then they after a few other conversations. They came back and said, we are not going to test you. You still don't meet the criteria and you should just go back and go about your life. And then the next day, when I called back to get results from a second panel of tests that they had ordered for me, because they had told me that if that second panel came back negative, I can get coronavirus testing. I wasn't even able to find the results. Nobody seemed to know what happened to them.

MG: What does this tell you? What did this tell you about the state of testing in New York and in the United States?

ROBIN SHULMAN: It's clear that there is an enormous shortage of testing. And I think that's already beginning to change even day to day and all to our more options were becoming available. So ultimately, I was able to be tested on Friday. And I think the criteria has loosened at that point and also, you know what, the reason I was able to finally be tested was because I was writing a story for The New York Times and I called the governor's office and the hospital and asked them to clarify what had happened to me. And then they did offer me a test. Hour to hour availability of testing was changing. But the fact is that less than 5000 people have been tested in the country. And it's not enough to really understand how pervasive the person to person transmission might be.

MG: After the test was finally done. What happened? What result did you get back?

ROBIN SHULMAN: I was very happy to learn that I'm negative.

MG: I'm glad your tests came back negative and I hope you feel better.

ROBIN SHULMAN: Thank you so much. Take care.

MG: Miss Robin Shulman in New York City. Dr. Robert Murphy has been listening to her story. He's a professor of infectious diseases at Northwestern University. Executive director as well of the Institute for Global Health Care. Doctor, good morning.

ROBERT MURPHY: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of that story? We just heard from Robin Shulman. She was desperate to get tested for COVID-19 and found herself running into a series of obstacles on the way to those tests.

ROBERT MURPHY: All too common. And it's why the United States has a thousand. Over a thousand cases now, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

MG: Explain the tip of the iceberg. I want to hear what you say, what you mean about that in a moment. But explain how this happens. The president yesterday said that's when people need a test. They can get a test. The vice president had said that everybody who wants to get a test can get a test. Has that been true?

ROBERT MURPHY: No. The story that Robin Shulman just gave is true in every city, is true in my own hospital and everywhere throughout the country. And it's why the epidemic in the United States is going to be really bad.

MG: When you say really bad, what do you mean?

ROBERT MURPHY: I mean, thousands and thousands of cases will be diagnosed in the next two weeks because now the testing is easier. You know, she finally got the test. The problem is that when she was trying to get the test at the beginning, they actually didn't have the ability to do the test. They had maybe, I'm not sure about the state of New York, but maybe 50 or 100 tests available in the entire state at that particular time. And they were getting requests from all over the state, including people who'd come back from Iran and South Korea and China and Italy. So they were getting used up in those particular cases and also in cases where the people were so sick, they were already in the hospital. Some of them on a ventilator in those cases got priority to be done. So there just was not the capacity. So it's really in a way, it's not the people's fault that we're telling her to go home. It's really the system that was at fault.

MG: You have said that the United States was totally unprepared for this.

ROBERT MURPHY: Totally unprepared, totally unprepared. At the beginning of February when testing just took off and we realized that there were cases in the United States. The CDC put together a test kit. It's a PCR test. It's a relatively straightforward test, but it's not an easy test. And they developed their own instead of using the W.H.O. qualified test that was being done really worldwide. So they use their own. They sent it out to the states and it was defective. It didn't work. So all those kits came back. They had to re juggle both the preparation and then they sent out a new batch, but they were behind. So here you get to the end of February and the states are getting the new test kits. There was no plan B. And when they finally got the ability to do any testing at all. And when she said less than 5000 cases have been done, if the timing is right, what I hear, it's really 500 cases.

MG: 500 cases?

ROBERT MURPHY: Yeah, it's not 5000. I don't know who told her or 5000, but it hit two weeks ago Friday, it was 500 had been done at it. This is just absolutely ludicrous. And it just shows you how inept the CDC was here.

MG: Is the Centres for Disease Control that is at fault here?

ROBERT MURPHY: Yes. They are at fault. Their leadership is at fault. It's now, of course, exposed in the media everywhere. What's going on? But you point a finger and it goes there because they were the only ones. The situation is partially resolved in that they are allowing commercial companies to do the tests and they're were allowing the big hospitals. She's at Mount Sinai in New York. I'm sure they are able to set up their lab to do the tests. But just because you're able to setup, the test is not like you can turn it on one day and do it. For instance, at our hospital when we finally got permission to actually do the tests ourselves, we're setting it up. We're not going to be ready for the first patient until next Monday.

MG: When you have to wait that long and even when you have to wait for, you know, not until Monday, but you have that gap between when people initially started to see cases of coronavirus and when the tests were fully rolled out. What does that delay do, that lag in terms of the impact on public health?

ROBERT MURPHY: Okay, look at Italy. Two and a half weeks ago, the Italians had 339 cases. They have, over 10,00 cases today. That's how fast this thing is growing in the population. Two and a half weeks in the middle of an epidemic is a very long time and it's basically the cat is out of the bag. They may not be able to fix this now.

MG: Do you think anyone has any idea how many people are actually infected with coronavirus across the United States?

ROBERT MURPHY: No. There are people doing some modelling. The problem is we really have so little information about how much is really out there, because we haven't really done enough tests. We don't know. I mean, look how it jumped. It was just a few hundred the other day then and was, oh, my God, it went up to 500. And now we're in one day we're over a thousand cases in the United States. This is because of this release of the tests and the ability of one of the big commercial labs to actually do it. So you don't have to be calling around the state. And, you know, we have 50 states and all these territories. You have to call the health department to get approval to have it done. Then they don't let you do it, even though she was in a room with people from Shanghai. I don't know if you want, if we have time to talk about it, but, you know, the same thing happened to me. I was in Beijing the 9th of January. There was no crisis on the 9th of January except in Wuhan. There was no nothing bad going on in Beijing. Nobody seemed alarmed. I was there for two days. I was actually meeting with the Chinese FDA about something completely unrelated. I came back to the United States. They asked where I had been. I came back at the end of January. They asked where I had been. I listed a string of Asian countries. I was going for work. And didn't say anything. They said nothing. Three days later, I left. I went abroad again to Africa, West Africa, where I have a lot of projects. When I came back from that trip, they said, hey, you've been to China. I said, well, I was in China, you know, now, six weeks ago. And so they put me in a room with 50 people from China.

MG: And you think those questions should come a lot earlier.

ROBERT MURPHY: The same thing that happened to her. It's just amazing. I cannot believe it.

MG: What about the issue of cost? If you take a look at the issue of cost, so many people struggle with basic, the cost of basic health care, in the United States. Do you think that the cost of testing would be a deterrent for people, that they worry that they couldn't afford to go?

ROBERT MURPHY: Oh, the patients?

MG: Yes.

ROBERT MURPHY: Yes, of course. In the United States, I mean, the medical care here is, you know, I mean, we have a ridiculous system to begin with where everyone, you pay for absolutely everything that you have done in a hospital. And that's why, you know, we pay probably, I think, it's three times as much as Canadians pay for their health care in general.

MG: So could that be a deterrent for people getting tested?

ROBERT MURPHY: That's that is absolutely a deterrent. Now, some say now then we have 50 states and 14 territories. So every state can do something different. The governor of my state, Illinois, has asked- he asked. He didn't tell them. He has no authority to tell them. Ask the insurance companies to make sure they cover coronavirus testing when it comes to the point that any doctor anywhere can just order the test. And the insurance companies kind of said, oh, we'll let it happen. Well, we'll see, but at least you can get it now.

MG: Given the fact just finally that you said that this is the tip of the iceberg. These thousand cases may just be the very, very beginning in terms of the numbers in the United States. What does that mean for people who might be travelling to the United States right now?

ROBERT MURPHY: Well, they should think twice. It depends on what the risk is from where they're coming from. We're not the only country in trouble. France has over a thousand cases. Spain has over a thousand cases. Germany's over a thousand. These are not the big countries, you know, the China, South Korea, Iran and so forth. Americans I don't know about Canadians, but I know Americans are prohibited from entering several African countries right now. They will go immediately into quarantine for 14 days upon arrival.

MG: But if people are thinking of heading to the United States, you say they should think twice.

ROBERT MURPHY: They should. They should think twice. And even within our own country, we have you know, since we have a very loose public health system, there is no strong federal public health system. That's just the nature of the beast. But we have some schools, universities here that are not allowing domestic travel to the west coast of the United States.

MG: Doctor, we'll leave it there. It's a frightening situation. Thank you.

ROBERT MURPHY: It's terrible.

MG: Dr. Robert Murphy, a professor of infectious diseases at Northwestern University, executive director of the Institute for Global Healthcare here in Canada. The federal government has put in millions of dollars towards COVID-19 research. Keith Party is an assistant professor in the faculty of Pharmacy at the University of Toronto, one of the researchers who got a grant this week.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, we're developing is lamina a box that would allow you to ship 14,00 tests. And the readers that we have can read hundreds of samples at once. Airports, cruise ships, anywhere may need to restrict the movement of people with quarantine. This test in theory could really help define who's actually sick more rapidly.

MG: Keith Party says that they're still testing his portable labs, but hopes to have them operating during this current outbreak. In the meantime, several specialized COVID-19 screening clinics are operating across this country. Dr. Sumon Chakrabarti is an infectious disease specialist at Trillium Health Partners in Mississauga. Doctor, good morning to you.

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: Good morning thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. You surprised us very briefly at the difference between what's happening in the United States and what's happening here in Canada when it comes to testing.

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: When I hear people explain why it's happened that way in the state. It does confuse me a bit. But that said, it also kind of when we look at what's happening in Canada, I see the situation has been very good since the beginning. Our testing capabilities have been good. We've been able to broaden this and test more and more people as the outbreak has evolved.

MG: These designated testing sites, why is having them important in this country?

ROBERT MURPHY: They're imperative because one of the big worries about COVID-19, is that if we have lots of cases in a short period of time, it could overwhelm the health-care system. And what this does is this takes a lot of pressure off the emergency departments. In the last several weeks, patients have been going to the emergency department to get tested. Many of these people, thankfully, are not that ill, but you can see that it's volume added to their already big caseload. So these clinics will allow us to offload that, get testing done quickly in a streamlined manner. And it's really going to help. And they're popping up all over the country.

MG: There's one in Montreal. There's plans to open, some in Ontario, elsewhere in Quebec, in Alberta as well. How do they operate, how do they work?

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: Some of them are a little bit different than the other others. But, in general, what happens is you have a specialized area that has the ability to isolate patients. So they're not, of course, sitting in one big waiting area that they could potentially infect each other. The staff is protected. And this is specialized for this. The people are then tested with a swab. Also, we can have certain video capabilities in some of the clinics, where they can look at the patient and go, well, maybe that patient needs to come into the hospital rather than go home. It also has ability to test for other viruses as well, not just COVID-19. So people who are sick, we're also monitoring influenza, for example. It's another good way of getting that testing. So it's kind of like an all-in-one, one-stop shop, if you will. And it's something that's really, really helpful for the outbreak. It's going to be instrumental.

MG: And there's discretion with the doctors in terms of who gets tested.

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: That is the case, but that is rapidly changing. So, for example, the beginning of the outbreak, we would only test people, for example, that came back from certain countries like China or Iran. But rapidly, we're seeing that now it's any travel, and eventually we're going to start to have anybody with raspatory symptoms. And certainly a number of hospitals in the Greater Toronto area that I could speak for have been doing that. So the testing is quite broad and we're trying to capture everybody, to be able to get ahead of this.

MG: And if you get a test done in one of these remote clinics, one of the designated centres, how long does it take until you figure out the results?

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: It can come back very quickly. So in my experience, at least at my hospital when we have done them, some of these tests have been coming back in 24 hours, everybody is really, really on top of this. So it's only going to be better. And I have to commend our infection control and public health practitioners across Canada because it has been a really strong, coordinated effort.

MG: It's interesting, in Alberta last week, the chief medical officer there said that they're going to look at retesting older influenza samples in that province for COVID-19. What do you make of that?

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: That's right. So the reason for doing that is one of the problems, for example with Italy, was that they discovered the outbreak when it was already in the uptick, that exponential increase. And that's why they were already in the midst of the outbreak when they discovered it. One of the things that we're trying to avoid here in Canada, learning from other places, is if you look back at some of these samples, you can get an idea: "Well look, were there cases of COVID-19 before, already circulating, and we didn't know about it?" So far, there's no evidence of that. And what we're doing is testing not only people that are presenting. We're also going out searching for them across the country as well. And so far, there has not been any evidence of community transmission apart from in BC. And we're looking at some cases in Ontario right now.

MG: Should that retesting be happening all across the country?

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: It depends on the situation. But it's something that's being discussed among the microbiologists and infectious disease practitioners.

MG: Just in the final minute or so that we have, then. If you're speaking to a Canadian who's worried that they have the Corona virus, what advice would you give them?

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: So definitely I think that if you're feeling symptoms of, for example, fever, cough, respiratory symptoms, that type of thing, the best thing to do is phone your local health authorities. Usually it's a public health unit, and there's numbers in every jurisdiction. They can tell you where to go, where the nearest testing centre is, or for example, if there isn't a testing centre and it needs to be done in the emergency department. They can help by calling ahead and making sure that you're put in an area where you're not exposing others, and the tests can be done. So this of course, this is an evolving situation. We're learning on the fly. But it is important that you start form an area call the public health unit, and they can help you.

MG: Doctor., This has been very helpful. Thank you.

SUMON CHAKRABARTI: Absolutely. Thanks for having me again.

MG: Dr. Suman Chakrabarty is an infectious disease specialist at Trillium Health Partners in Mississauga. Well, coming up in the next half hour of the current getting blocked by Donald Trump was a point of pride for him. He'll speak with CNN reporter Daniel Dale about fact checking the president. But first.

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You know, you get fresh memories of everything and it's overwhelming. And you see yourself, you know, sometimes because of the these memories, just crying on your own.

MG: It's been a year since the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. Families are returning to the scene to remember their loved ones. We'll hear their stories coming up in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Anniversary of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 crash

Guest: Susan Ormistron

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. It happened a year ago this week. Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 took off from Addis Ababa and crashed six minutes later. All 157 people onboard died, including 18 Canadians. This was the second crash of a Boeing 737, Max 8, and led to the grounding of that aircraft worldwide. More than 100 families gathered yesterday at the crash site to mark the anniversary. CBS Susan Ormiston was there and joins me now. Susan, hello.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Hi, Matt.

MG: And tell me what the crash site looks like a year after that incident.

SUSAN ORMISTON: You know, Matt, it's really different. I mean, when we were here last year, of course, of that huge gash in the ground, the flight rolled into the ground here. It buried itself by two thirds. And now it's been filled in and levelled off. At the memorial yesterday, we were kept a kilometre away. Federal police saying we would be arrested if we went to closer. But we've established a very good relationship with many of the Canadian families. And they told us all about the memorial. And there were those pedals scattered on the ground and there were flags of each of the 33 nations planted in the ground. Each victim had a flower pot, a planted sunflower seeds, which will be grown there and then distributed around this very remote and humble area about two hours out of Addis Ababa. So it couldn't have looked more different, actually. If it weren't so terribly tragic, it's a beautiful sight, MAtt. It's sort of nestled in the Rift Valley with hills surrounding it. And I think a lot of the families we spoke to got some comfort coming back and seeing a more peaceful, tender place instead of that violent crash site that they observed over the last year.

MG: In your conversations with the family members, what did they tell you about why it was important for them to be there?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yes, a lot of expressed anxiety about coming back and said when they actually landed in Addis Ababa, many of them taking the same flight that their family members took coming from overseas, from Canada direct on Ethiopian Airlines to Addis. It was a connecting flight that crashed. They felt a real anxiety and they were overwhelmed again with grief when they actually touched down in Addis. But they felt very strongly that part of their loved ones are still here. You know, they did get some remains back, but some were actually buried there in coffins. They were too tiny to be identified. But they've spirit. It was the last place that their loved one saw. And they felt universally that they wanted to come back and feel that presence again in this space and sort of get close to the last part of the world that their family saw.

MG: You spoke with a number of those family members. Let's have a listen to your interview with Joan Vincent. She lost her daughter Angela in the crash.

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I'm going to be honest. Almost every time we've come, we've said we don't think we'll come back. And then when the opportunity comes up, we always come back. We came back to repatriate her remains. And then this time we felt we had to come here for the memorial. It's really comforting being with all these people. Sometimes people you don't even know. There were people today that we hugged after the celebration as people were going out to look at the flowerpots that I didn't know. But we were just crying together. And we all- we'll tell each other: I lost my child. I lost my sister. I lost my spouse. And it's a bit freeing. Even though there were sad moments today, we're all very happy that we were there.

MG: Joan Vincent also spoke at that memorial. Susan, what was what was her message in that moment?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Yes, she was one of three speakers, only out of 157 different families. And she spoke about grief, when she spoke about the softening of grief a year later. And that was very inspiring to me. Listening to her talk about that, she said, you know, we can now speak the names of the people we lost and not collapse in tears. We can start to remember their legacy. She said it was all, you know, happy, of course, there was a lot of weeping and sobbing and hugging. But she said there's a recognition that the people who left us would want us to go on and live life with spirit. And it was so interesting that because these families have now come across many times over the last year and Joan was- she was very paralyzed with grief for a long time. She couldn't speak to us about her loss. And all of a sudden she's found this wonderful voice. And she did this speech in front of hundreds of people yesterday. And she feels like now she can speak about her daughter, Angela, and take her legacy forward. It was so inspiring.

MG: There was an interim report released on Monday into the causes of this crash. What do we know thus far about what happened to that flight?

SUSAN ORMISTON: This was a report by the House Committee of Transportation in Washington. They had hearings [unintelligible] and they really came out with a very damaging report, an interim report saying that Boeing had actually, you know, they found that the design of the Max 8 was marred by technical failures. That there was a lack of transparency with regulators and customers. And that the manufacturer at the time, in the 2011 and on, were under tremendous pressure to compete with Airbus. And they decided to update the 737 fleet rather than develop a new plane. And that meant that many of the regulatory procedures they didn't have to go through. And that also pilots didn't have to have simulator training because it was a redesign, not a brand new plane. And they were very, very critical of the way Boeing dealt with it. They called it, you know, a culture of concealment, and that is grossly insufficient oversight.

MG: There's also this lawsuit are a number of lawsuits that that the families have filed. Just briefly, what stage of those lawsuits are?

SUSAN ORMISTON: Well, the lawsuits, you're right, there are many against Boeing, against Ethiopian Airlines, against aeroplane parts manufacturer and you know winding very slowly through the process. There's an acknowledgement that this could take years and that some families may decide in the end to settle with these companies rather than go forward to a trial that - I spoke to one of the lawyers in Chicago before I left. And he said, you know, I feel pretty strongly, many of them, that they want to go to trial. They want to hold Boeing accountable. And as much, you know, the compensation is part of it. But also just to make sure that they have included aviation safety and the families, particularly the Canadian group, which is very strong, very proud of what they've done and advocated for the safety.

MG: Susan, thank you. It's good to speak with you. Appreciate it. All right.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Alright, Matt.

MG: The CBC's Susan Ormiston.

[Music]

Daniel Dale on President Trump

Guest: Daniel Dale

MG: I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Maybe it's just optimism, but it does feel like spring is closer than ever. The milder weather is starting to hit hard. Birds on my ride into work this morning, and that means that more and more Canadians are getting outside and up close with wild animals. Richard Louv is all about that. His new book is called Our Wild Calling. It's about our relationship with animals. Here is an experience he shared Monday on The Current.

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You know, we live in a woodpecker colony here, and they're really funny. They're a little irritating because even though we have fire-resistant siding on our house, you can hear them in the morning every now and then banging on them and swearing because they keep forgetting that it's not wood. They're also dropping acorns between our walls from somewhere on the roof. So we have a rougher company, so they can be irritating, but they're also really interesting. They raise their kids communally. They have a real complex language and real complex social structure. And they're very funny, too. So we like them.

MG: That's the nature writer Richard Louv. After speaking with Richard, I asked for your experiences with animals. The current senior producer, Karin Marley, is here to help us go through the mail. Carrie, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Hello.

MG: A lot of people like this interview and a lot of people have stories of experiences with wild animals, too.

KARIN MARLEY: And I can definitely relate. It really seems that every time that I go out of the city, I get like almost this addiction to see as many wild animals as possible. But let's get to some of our listener stories. The first one is from Ken Pilon from Regina. He writes: One day I noticed that a baby raven was trapped inside one of our planters. The look in this young boy's eyes was a mixture of 'help. I'm trapped'. Plus, 'I'm hungry and scared'. And 'please help me'. Fortunately, I was able to release the raven without incident. The baby had a limp wing and it walked around our yard for the weekend. The parents watched over the entire operation. They were very protective and they did what was necessary to help their offspring learn to fly. For our safety and to help calm the bird, we stayed inside to give them space and time. All summer that raven stayed near our yard. I like to believe it was thanking me for saving its life.

MG: Ravens are amazing. There was a real range of stories. This one, we should warn you, may break your heart. Comes to us from Eva Haw in Williams Lake, British Columbia. And Eva writes: This sad story is about one of our very friendly Muscovy ducks. She hatched a brood of eight ducklings, and you could tell how proud she was. She would carefully take them to the pond each day to enjoy swimming and then back to the duck house at night. A few days later, when they were in the pond, an eagle spotted them. It was heartbreaking to watch as the eagle killed every one of her ducklings while she frantically tried to round them up. When the ordeal was over, she slowly walked back to the duck house, with her head held low as if her heart was broken, and she died three days later. It still brings tears to my eyes when I remember seeing how she walked back to her house.

KARIN MARLEY: That really is hard.

MG: I think I have something in my eye.

KARIN MARLEY: Exactly. The next one, luckily, is a lot happier and totally different. There were a lot of listeners who shared stories of attempted animal rescue, but as far as I know, this is the only letter we got about animals rescuing a human. Maureen Powers of Vancouver writes: My story starts with a solo kayak trip. I was in the San Juan Islands and got trapped in a whirlpool for two hours, trying desperately to get out. No waving of arms or calling brought any help. Suddenly I saw a pot of whales in the Strait of Georgia and sent out a thought for a whale to push me out of the ring. Seconds later, a whale tail came directly at me at the last moment. The tail turned and the force under the water lifted me out. It was a singular moment in time that changed.

MG: It's like a Hollywood ending.

KARIN MARLEY: Totally.

MG: Fantastic. And you're safe. Maureen, thank you for writing us that letter. This last one comes to us from Lynn Martel, who moved to the Canadian Rockies after growing up in Montreal. Lynn writes: My most special encounters have been with bears. Last summer, early one morning, I set up my tripod in a rushing creek to capture the sunrise. And while waiting for the sun to appear, I scanned my surroundings. Movement caught my eye and I watched, mesmerized as a brown grizzly bear walked up and over a rocky marine hill about 200 meters away from me. I was even more astonished to watch a second grizzly, similar in size and likely its sibling follow the first bear up and over the hill. Wow, they were so close to me, but walking with purpose as wild animals do away from me. By the time I remembered, I had a camera perched on my tripod. They were gone.

KARIN MARLEY: It's almost better not having a photo and just having that story.

MG: Just remember the moment.

KARIN MARLEY: Indeed.

MG: Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY: Thank you.

MG: CBC senior producer Karin Marley. If there's anything on the program that you want to comment on, do get in touch. You can email us. The current Web site has a contact link. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can send us an email at thecurrent@cbc.ca Or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. This is indeed The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name's Matt Galloway. Before we play this next thing, a disclaimer, what you're about to hear is not actually true.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: If you have a windmill anywhere near your house, congratulations. Your house just went down 75 percent in value. And they say the noise causes cancer. You tell me that.

MG: Now, there is actually zero evidence that the noise from windmills causes cancer. That did not stop U.S. President Donald Trump from saying it to a room full of people last year. By now, it's no secret that the U.S. president often plays it fast and loose when it comes to the facts. Daniel Dale started his work as a human lie detector while covering the Toronto mayor, Rob Ford, and he's been applying those skills to Donald Trump since 2016. He's now CNN's resident Fact chequer. And I caught up with Daniel Dale while he was in Toronto for the Hot Docs Curious Minds Festival. Here's a bit of that conversation which took place in front of a live studio audience.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: What's one thing you've learned about Donald Trump that surprised you? And there's a lot. But I mean, if there's one thing that that stands out to you, what would it be?

DANIEL DALE: There is a lot, I think one thing is, you know, he's mocked as dumb, an idiot. You know, that's his portrayal in various quarters. But I think he calls himself a stable genius. I think he's a kind of genius level understanding for the weaknesses of his adversaries.

MG: What does that mean?

DANIEL DALE: You know, he knows what to pick at in the way that, you know, some childhood bullies may. It's like, how did you even think of that? How did you know or your little brother like, you know, how did you what would get under their skin or what would what would stick to them, what would embarrass them? And I think he has an understanding of how to dominate people and a shamelessness about attempting to assert dominance that makes him unpopular in some quarters, but also helps him in some ways, like I think he understood that he could dominate the Republican Party, dominate Republican legislators, and I think there was a greater sense around the time the election. All very like institutions. You know, these maverick Congress people aren't going to stand for this. But, yes, they're standing for it because he has asserted his will over them.

MG: What was it, just remind us, that got you thinking that fact checking him that running what he says through the lie detector would be a good idea.

DANIEL DALE: Was it a good idea? Was it? Yes, I think it was. It started very sort of accidentally. I didn't know he'd become my full time job. And I just thought this candidate's lying is a huge story of this election. I started in 2016 and no one was really talking about it any kind of systematic way. So reporters would sometimes like tweet amongst themselves. You know, there's this kind of like bubble discourse that doesn't make its way to the broader mediums. And people were tweeting like he lied his way through that speech, but no one was itemizing this. No one was you know, it wasn't making its way onto the nightly news or into the stories that the reporters are writing. And so I thought, you know, I'm gonna make a list one day and I'm a got a good response. And then I made a list and other day and I told the story before. But literally how it became a daily thing was Michael Moore, the filmmaker, tweeted something like this Canadian journalist every single day makes a list of everything Trump says that's wrong and he shames the U.S. media. And that got like 10,000 retweets. And I got tons of followers from it. And I was seriously like, oh, my God, I have to do this every day no, or dissatisfy all these people. And so that's how it became a daily thing. And so I wasn't thinking about it in like a very principled and systematic way and so the thoughts I've developed subsequently about the value of this, why it matters, how it helps, why we need to keep doing it. But those all came well after I actually started doing the task.

MG: Were you always comfortable in calling it a lie?

DANIEL DALE: I don't think always. I think that the turning point for me was when Rob Ford lied about me with the incident in the park behind his house. The Star let me write a front page column that the headline was like, Rob Ford is lying about me and it's vile. And then after that, I was like, well, if I could use the word lie about me, like, why can't I use the word lie when he lies about transit? Like, why should I get special treatment from myself? You know, this other stuff is equally dishonest. And so that was sort of a the when I started doing it. And then with Trump, so many of them are so clearly egregious that I'm comfortable doing it.

MG: Not everybody does it, though. And there's still people who will dance around that word.

DANIEL DALE: Yes, for sure. And I again, I think a lot of it is from, it's not the reporter. And I've seen some of that at CNN. So no one like when I was in discussions with CNN to join them, I said to them, like, I don't know what your policy is, but I can't stop using the word lie. And you're like, no, no, no, we would never ask you to do that. We know he lies. We just have to, like, talk about it. And so no one has ever told me not to do it. But I know that like at CNN, if I want to use the word lying in a story, it's going to be a discussion. And so sometimes it's like, okay, maybe have a discussion tomorrow, but I need to get the story out right now. And so you have like, you know, constraints.

MG: Why do you think it's such a loaded word, if on the face of it, it's the right word?

DANIEL DALE: I think just like, look, we are reporters. We report. You decide. And using the word lie is us deciding. But I don't. My argument is that it's not like that is the objectively correct word. It has a definition. You know, and so for me that the bar is, is this a deliberate false claim? If we can if we can be confident that this is deliberate, then I think is the right word to use.

MG: When you're trying to be balanced, if you're a journalist in a story like this, what does that do? Because that's what a lot of papers and broadcasters and reporters are trying to do. I mean, you talk to the sidelines, that side when you do that. What does that do?

DANIEL DALE: Our job is to describe reality as it is. And I think when you try to cram a figure like Trump into that conventional box, you are not conveying reality as accurately as you can.

MG: It's not just when you're doing this. I mean, you're largely focussing on the president. But it's not just the president. You're tweeting last week about the Bernie Sanders ad that came out, which if you squinted or just looked at it and listened to it, maybe quickly, it seemed to have an endorsement from Barack Obama. Tell me about that.

DANIEL DALE: Yes. So Sanders had not you know, he's kept his distance from Obama. He runs against the so-called Democratic establishment. He's been a critic of Obama from the left, saying Obama isn't progressive enough for a number of years, although he has also complimented Obama and work with Obama. And so after the drubbing he took in many states in Super Tuesday, he's in trouble. Released this ad, slicing together Obama compliment of him from 2006 when Obama endorsed his Senate campaign in Vermont.

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Bernie is somebody who has the virtue of saying exactly what he believes. Great authenticity, great passion.

DANIEL DALE: With an image of Obama at the podium in 2016 at the DNC.

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They want honest leadership. Who cares about them? They want somebody who's going to fight for them and they have find it in Bernie, feel the Bern.

DANIEL DALE: Saying feel the Bern in a way that made it look like the praise came from 2016. And it was all endorsement when, in fact, the 2016 comments were in the context of him trying to get Sanders supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton. So it was a bit of a mess. And so, yeah, each candidate has their own fact check challenges. I think is important for us as fact Chequers and journalist generally to make clear, there's no equivalence here. Like I think too often average citizens are willing to say, oh, they all line. There's no one like Trump, like the frequency, the egregiousness of many of the lies. There's no equivalence. Sanders can be a challenge because he cites a barrage of statistics. 87 million people like this. 32 percent of people like this. Sometimes they are stretches, but he's never making up the stats, like he's twisting a number for a real study. Joe Biden is a challenge to fact check because it like fact checking, like your grandpa. You know, like he's telling a story. Like back in 1973, I led the passage of it-- and you're like, okay. Like, so it's like a research project to try to fact check that. It's not like, it's like who, you know, who is still around from that legislative fight, 1973e. So yes, they all have their issues and their own individual challenges.

MG: How much of a chance does Trump have to be re-elected?

DANIEL DALE: He has a solid chance like without making a prediction. You know, it's by many metrics it's quite a strong economy. And Democrats say a lot of people are being left behind. Of course that's true. But, you know, you have strong growth. We're well into this expansion, strong job creation. You know, by what they call fundamentals models, put the president's personality aside and just look at the numbers. Trump is favoured. But with Trump, like people can't put aside his personality. And so I think if he was a normal president running with these economic numbers, you'd say heavy favourite. Because he's Donald Trump, I think it's a dogfight.

MG: Did you take some pride in being blocked by him on Twitter?

DANIEL DALE: Yes, it was. It was, it was, honestly, it was good for my career. It was like I got I don't- I mean, maybe I would have got to CNN regardless. But like I got asked on U.S. TV for the first time or close, the day after he blocked me on Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC, to talk about that and then kept inviting me back. So I would I wish that he didn't block me because it's irritating to have to have a second Twitter account solely to see what Trump's tweeting about. But now it's been fine.

MG: I'm not going to ask you for a prediction. But if there's a word that you could use to describe what you think the election is going to be like, what does that word?

DANIEL DALE: Bananas. It's going to be crazy.

MG: Bananas?

DANIEL DALE: Yes.

MG: It's Daniel Dale ladies and gentlemen. Fantastic. Thank you very much.

DANIEL DALE: Thanks.

MG: Daniel Dale is a reporter with CNN. We spoke on stage in Toronto at the Hot Docs Curious Minds Festival. That will do it for The Current for today. Q it's coming up on CBC Radio on Tom Power, talking to Josh Radnor. You might know him as Ted Mosby from How I Met Your Mother. He is one of the people behind this very controversial new Amazon show called Hunters. It's about a band of Nazi hunters. You'll hear that conversation coming up on Q. You could listen to it perhaps through the CBC Listen app. Find that wherever you find your apps. It's the best way to hear everything on CBC Radio. CBC podcast. CBC music. Etc.. CBC Listen, look for it where you get your apps. Have you been following this story but speeding up the sport of curling? The Brier just done and the World Curling Federation is trying to figure out how to make curling games shorter, to make them easier to broadcast on TV. The route reviewing the rules now asking players for their opinions. We will leave you this morning with a cheeky your perspective. Eric Nickell was a great Canadian humorist. And here he is on your CBC in 1957 with a spoof on the history of curling. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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According to the legend, a young Highland bride was making her first haggis for her husband when it suddenly rolled out of the oven and fell on his foot, removing it at the ankle and proceeding through the floor into the cellar where it wrecked part of the foundation of the house. Being a man of frugal habits, the husband salvaged the haggis, stuck a handle on it, and thus became the father of the first curling rock. His wife caught the first train to Reno. Today, curling is becoming increasingly popular in Canada. Every winter, more and more men, most of them perfectly normal looking, middle aged businessmen, respected members of the community get together in an alley of ice to throw rocks at one another. One reason for this popularity, of course, is that the prerequisites of curling are simple. All you need is some ice, a mug of scotch, a dash of absinthe and three guys who is not as nuts you are. And brother, you'll be curling in no time.

Wednesday 11 March, 2020 Full Transcript

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