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The Current Transcript for June 3, 2016

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Oh, wow. It’s a mess. I’m so overwhelmed. Ah!

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Well, there it is. The moment of turning the key, opening the door, and returning home in Fort McMurray. For many, crossing that threshold is an emotional moment, one that is being repeated thousands and thousands of times across parts of the burnt out Alberta city this week. We will take you to Fort Mac to hear from some of that city's resilient residents, who are reclaiming their city and digging in for the long haul of cleaning up and building back up. That in just a few moments. Then what to do when a life is at stake inside is a zoo.

SOUNDCLIP

That gorilla was upset. You’re dealing with either life, human life or animal life here. So what is the decision? I think it’s very simple to figure that out.

PC: That is none other than Jungle Jack Hanna offering his insight into what took place at the Cincinnati Zoo last weekend. The decision to kill her Harambe the gorilla to protect the life of a four-year-old boy. That decision has sparked no shortage of controversy and commentary around the world, but has also sparked some bigger questions about why Harambe was in a zoo in the first place. We will question the practice of captive breeding in half an hour. And after that…

SOUNDCLIP

[translated] This vote is ridiculous. It is about events that are ordinary in wartime that happened in 1915 within the context of World War One. The resolution is not based on truth.

PC: That is the Turkish Prime Minister reacting to a resolution passed by Germany's parliament, which recognizes the World War One massacre of Armenians as an act of genocide. But this is hardly ancient history for Turkey or for the millions of migrants seeking a new life in Europe. We’ll discuss the ripple effects of the genocide resolution in an hour's time. Hi. I’m Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

Fort Mac returnees share stories of coming home

Guests: Rob Rice, Amanda Ferguson, Chris Vandenbreekel

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Oh, we left lights on. You’ve got the keys?

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: I’m nervous. That doesn't smell good. [sniffs] Oh, god, what is that?

VOICE 2: Romaine lettuce on the table.

VOICE 1: [Laughs] Oh!

VOICE 2: Gross.

VOICE 1: That’s so gross! Oh, I’m so overwhelmed. I mean, I know our house only smells because the rotten food and stuff, but it’s just… it’s just overwhelming being back. I'm so happy.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Nicole and Rob Anderson were two of the estimated 20,000 Fort McMurray residents beginning the trek home this week, nearly a month after wildfire forced the city's evacuation. Those kind of emotional reactions are being played out right across Fort Mac. George Cloete owns the local Shoppers Drug Mart. He was allowed back earlier than most so he could gear up for everyone's return.

SOUNDCLIP

I don't know what to expect, you know. I'm anxious about the emotion that I’ll have to deal with. I’m anxious about people coming in and just breaking down. It's been a team effort. Nothing but a team effort, you know. People went beyond. I have staff working for me who lost their houses. That’s a kind of humbling support that you don't expect but get.

PC: That's Fort McMurray drug store owner George Cloete. Rob Rice is another of the early returners. He and his wife are co-owners of a Home Hardware Building Centre in Fort McMurray and they have spent the last week at the store, literally day and night, getting it ready for residents to come back. Rob Rice is in Fort Mac. Hi.

ROB RICE: Hi, Piya, how are you?

PC: I'm okay. How are you?

ROB RICE: Oh, not too bad. A little tired, but we’re doing okay.

PC: Yeah?

ROB RICE: Yeah, we're doing just fine.

PC: What have the last couple of days been like for you at the hardware store?

ROB RICE: It's been pretty busy. Lots of people coming in. Obviously, they’re letting people in waves, but it's been very, very busy. It's nice to see some familiar faces. It's an exciting time, a nervous time, and you don't even know where to start with the questions, right? The first one is always just, how is your house? Which is an odd question to say to somebody when you first see them, but that's the question you ask, so.

PC: So, you got back in when?

ROB RICE: We got back in 11 days ago.

PC: And when you walked into your store - as we heard some other people going into their homes or their businesses and the emotion - what was that moment like for you?

ROB RICE: Well, surprisingly, we were expecting worse. You always, kind of, expect the worst and then we walked in and we were surprised. It had that smoky smell, but other than that it was in good shape. It was intact. And it kind of puts you in a good mood. You’re like, hey, we’ve got work to do here and the store is still standing and let's get to work, right? Let’s get back to somewhat a normal way of life.

PC: Now, I said that you've been at your store literally day and night, because you have been there at night, because your home is not inhabitable at this point, right?

ROB RICE: Yeah, we just got some smoke damage at the house and we actually got some water damage. I think, from looking at it and being in the neighbourhood, a few houses across the street are burnt to the ground, unfortunately. And I think maybe our house might have been saved by firefighters by the looks of it, which is absolutely amazing. Just from some loss of shingles and that, maybe from it being hosed down and stuff like that, but I honestly think maybe some of the firefighters might have saved our house.

PC: So, you’re sleeping where in your store? On an air mattress?

ROB RICE: Yeah, we have been sleeping on air mattresses in our offices. We actually moved into my in-laws house for the last two nights, which was nice, nice to have a real mattress to sleep on, but we did seven straight days in the store on air mattresses on the floor in the offices and I had amazing six staff with me that did the same thing as me. They jumped aboard their vehicle, drove up early, forgot about all their problems and issues to come help me out, help the store out, and help the community out in the long run.

PC: So, you’ve got six employees back at work along with you.

ROB RICE: Yeah.

PC: Are they all homeless, so to speak? What’s happened to their homes?

ROB RICE: Well, believe it or not two out of those employees did lose their house. They lost everything. And they took it upon themselves to be like, you know what, Rob? We’ll come help you out. We’d rather do that and kind of occupy our minds a bit. The lost everything. They didn’t have nothing to their name and they came up to help us out, which is absolutely amazing.

PC: When do you think you'll get back into your house?

ROB RICE: I hope we just have to do a few minor repairs, like a roof repair, and get a real good cleaner in there, and hopefully get all that stuff done. I think hopefully in the next couple weeks, but I think we've just got to put that on the back burner. We’ve got our friends and now we’re staying with family, so we're pretty lucky in that aspect. I mean, people have no home at all, so.

PC: You've said that people are coming into your store and it's emotional when people come in there. There's also a practical aspect, I assume, that they're coming into your store - they need stuff. What are they looking for? What do they need?

ROB RICE: Everybody's buying furnace filters, first of all. That’s probably the number one seller. They really want to replace them. And then obviously cleaning supplies. You know, we can’t keep them on the shelves. Everybody’s getting to work, amazingly. And even lawn mowers. People are like, I want my lawn back to normal. I want to go trim my grass. I want help my neighbour out and do his before he gets back, even. I’ve heard a lot of stories about that.

PC: So people want to try and get some normalcy back and mow the lawn, do those daily or weekly routine things that make life so normal.

ROB RICE: Yeah. I think that's it. It’s exactly it. They've been away from home for a month. They just want to get back to something that’s somewhat normal and I think just doing those day to day things that you do around the house, those chores, kind of make it like normal little bit, right.

PC: I imagine a hardware store at a time like this is a pretty important business to be running.

ROB RICE: Well, I think so. You want to be there for the community and we’re community-based and my wife was born and raised here in Fort McMurray and this has been my home for over 33 years. You know, my family moved up here when I was a little baby, so it’s amazing that the amount of people that we know in this town—We want to help out. We want to be here for our friends and our family and that’s very important to us.

PC: Rob, thank you for talking to me and best of luck in rebuilding your place and your city.

ROB RICE: Thank you very much, Piya. Thanks for having me.

PC: Take care.

ROB RICE: Take care.

PC: Rob Rice is the co-owner of Home Hardware Building Centre in Fort mac. Well, our next guest might well need some Home Hardware supplies. Yesterday, Amanda Ferguson returned to her Fort Mac home for the first time since the wildfire hit the city. We've reached Amanda Ferguson at her home. It’s in the Timberlea neighbourhood of Fort McMurray. Hi, Amanda.

AMANDA FERGUSON: Good morning, Piya.

PC: How does it feel to be back in your place?

AMANDA FERGUSON: To be back in my place - it's not too bad. There’s the smell of smoke and stuff in my house, which has led to me having a migraine for the last 24 hours, but I'm glad to be in Fort McMurray. I’m really glad to be home.

PC: Did you come home by yourself?

AMANDA FERGUSON: No, I know I had brought my four children and my stepson.

PC: How are they doing?

AMANDA FERGUSON: They're doing really well. They're very, very happy they're here.

PC: Yeah. How are they doing with the smoke, because we've heard that young kids and the elderly and people with breathing problems, it might be more difficult for them. How are they doing with all that, because there’s still smoke in the air.

AMANDA FERGUSON: Well, I do have two younger children - one that's eight and one that’s three - and I bought extra masks before I came up and they're wearing them 24 hours.

PC: 24 hours a day your kids are in masks?

AMANDA FERGUSON: Yeah.

PC: Yeah. What was that like in the car yesterday? You drive into Fort Mac, you’ve been gone for a number of weeks - what was that like for you and your family?

AMANDA FERGUSON: Oh, it was really - it was good. They were counting down, asking every five minutes when we're going to get there and the second we got there everybody was cheering and happy and smiles on their faces.

PC: So, you get into your home. Take us in there. When you look around what are you seeing?

AMANDA FERGUSON: Things were left in the exact same places that they were when we left the house. It was almost-- It was eerie just to realize how fast you left the house and to come back and realize that your bread was still on the counter open because you were ready to make supper and-- Everything is just in a standstill, l but you've got the smell smoke, which brings you back to the whole day.

PC: That must be very strange, all of it.

AMANDA FERGUSON: It was. It was very strange. It was emotional for myself.

PC: So there’s emotion and then there's the practical things, Amanda. What do you need to do now to clean up your personal space, to get your life restarted, so to speak?

AMANDA FERGUSON: Well, right now, the place I’m in I’m actually renting, but I put my notice in two months prior to the fire to leave the home because my lease was up. So, I'm here to clean the house and remove my belongings.

PC: What do you do? How do you get through the next couple of days? What your plans? Do you look for a new place in the new next few days, few weeks? Do you a plan, so to speak?

AMANDA FERGUSON: I have a plan in my head, but whether it's going to fall through or not, I don't know. I'm hoping to find somewhere that we call home for at least a year, hopefully longer, within the next few days. If not, then I'll have to put my stuff in storage and just go back to the place that we've been staying at since the fire happened.

PC: And your kids, how are you keeping them busy? Because you've got you've got to take care of them too.

AMANDA FERGUSON: Well, for the little ones, it's more of just keep them playing with the little bit of toys that we have here that aren’t packed and that's pretty much it. Like, I won't let them outside. So they can’t go play or find out if their friends are home or anything. It's just too risky for them right now, even though the air quality seems really well and the smoke smell, it smells smoky, but it doesn’t seem like it’s the worst. But I just can’t risk it for my two younger kids.

PC: Do your kids your questions about, like, hey, mom, what happened? Why did this happen?

AMANDA FERGUSON: I've had my eight-year-old ask me, how come it happened? It’s more of just, we don't know and he's fine with that. He's seen all the fire that was done to everything. And everybody takes a deep breath and says it's gone. Like, their uncle has lost their house. My sister’s in-laws have lost their house. It's pretty dramatic, like, he knows. And my younger one just kept asking to go home all the time and comparing every new place he saw with Fort McMurray. So, he's excited to be home and he’s hugged all his little teddy bears.

PC: You were born and raised in Fort Mac. How has this changed the way you think your hometown? Does it?

AMANDA FERGUSON: It doesn't change anything at all, actually. I love Fort McMurray. It’s, like you said, I was born and raised here. My kids were born and raised here. It’ll always be home. And now it's just we all get together and we all hold hands and rebuild and make Fort McMurray better than it ever was before.

PC: Amanda, take care. I hope you feel better with your migraines and good luck to you and your children as well.

AMANDA FERGUSON: Thank you very much, Piya. Thanks for having me.

PC: Take good care.

AMANDA FERGUSON: Thanks, bye.

PC: Bye. Amanda Ferguson lives in to the Timberlea neighbourhood of Fort Mac and she returned home with her family yesterday for the first time since the wildfires. Well, we have one more guest from Fort Mac joining us now and like the hardware store owner, Rob Rice, that we spoke with earlier, Chris Vandenbreekel was one of those people allowed to return home early because he too is providing an essential service. Chris Vandenbreekel is news director at the Fort McMurray radio station, Mix 103.7, and over the last four days he and his station have been keeping returning residents informed about developments in and around the city. His home, like so many others, is not fit to live in, so we've reached Chris Vandenbreekel at his office, I think. Hi, Chris.

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Good morning, Piya.

PC: Are you in your office?

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Yes, I am.

PC: What was your re-entry to Fort Mac like?

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: It was definitely highs and lows, mix of emotions. We actually drove in from the north because we were flown up to one of the camps to retrieve our vehicles and as we came in we were noticing more and more burnt out trees, some flame retardant on the trees, and we took some Facebook live videos for our listeners just to show them what was going on. And then as we came into the city from the north, it doesn't seem like there's much damage. You see some burnt out hills, but you don't see any of the destroyed homes. But then as you get farther south in the city you start seeing Waterways and the trailer park and you see the blocked off areas of Abasand and Beacon Hill. You know, it's pretty emotional to see that, but I think what we really took away was that there was more of the city left than we thought there was going to be.

PC: When there's a crisis or a tragedy or catastrophe we often get that big picture when we're not there, when were outsiders, but it's always in the detail that we learn so much about what's really going on. And you said on Twitter - this is a detail, but I want you to talk about it - you said on Twitter that the men who are re-entering, the men who have facial hair are shaving it off. So, explain that to me.

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Well, that was for the early re-entry, before June 1st, and the reason for that was because, all of us who were coming in before the public re-entry day, we were coming in for work and so that was under the jurisdiction of Occupational Health and Safety, which meant that we had to get fit tested for respirator masks and in order to be properly fit tested, in order for it to be a proper seal, you can't have any facial hair. So, it wasn't as bad for me, because I only had a little dusty goatee going, but a few of my co-workers had full on beards. One of our co-workers hadn't shaved fully in ten years, so it was pretty devastating for him and we were making some jokes about baby faces after.

PC: I imagine also probably with all the smoke in the air that having it get your facial hair probably makes it a little bit more smelly. I want to talk about your music station, because you are really providing an essential service, right. You’re keeping people informed. You're usually a music station. Are you also keeping them entertained? Like, what is the programming on your station right now?

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: So, we are still playing our music, but what we're doing is every 15 minutes we are providing an update on each of our stations. We have two stations, actually, Mix and Cruz, which is a greatest hits station. And so we have a jock providing updates and then at the top of the hour the news person comes in and we do a more in-depth update. And we're keeping our website and our Twitter feeds updated as fast as possible. And we actually launched a new website for the re-entry process to help people have, kind of, a one stop shop for all the information that they need.

PC: You came back earlier than other people and, I guess, you're a little bit ahead in just terms of time, in terms of digesting all of this. So, give me a sense for you, Chris, how would you describe the overall process of residents re-entering, both practically and emotionally?

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Yeah, I think on the on the practical basis, it can be overwhelming, because there's a lot of stuff that you have to do. And a lot of people that are coming in even now are coming in to do some work with their employer and so it's tough to find the time to do a walk through with your insurance company of your apartment or your house, if it's really smoke-damaged, if it's still standing. People coming back finding out that their houses are gone and they can't access them. You know, it's all fenced off. They can't sift through the ash. They said it’s too dangerous for them to do that. So, I think it's tough for a lot of people. I know, for myself, I'm not able to stay in my apartment and that’s very frustrating. And it's not even—Like, it's still standing, but it’s not fit to live in at this point because it was so close to the fire.

PC: Do you have any sense—Like, do they tell you, hey, Chris, your apartment, you'll probably be able to get in X amount of time?

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: They're bringing an assessor through our building on June 6th, which coincidentally is my birthday. But after that, it depends on the damages, because they literally built a fire brick right in behind our building to save it because it was on Prospect Drive, which was mostly decimated. So it was strategically saved and so I actually managed to get into my apartment very briefly and it seemed okay, other than the overwhelming stench of rotting food, which, you heard from one of the other residents earlier about, and that's one of the huge things. But it’ll be interesting to see what the damage is to the building on the other side.

PC: So, it's interesting because you, like so many other people, living in limbo away from Fort Mac the last number weeks, and now even though you're back in your city, the limbo continues.

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Yes, it does to a degree. But I have to say that overall it feels like I'm home again even though I'm not in my apartment, even just sitting in my office and doing work and being able to sit in my chair. It feels like home again, because this is where I spent most of my time anyways, so it is good to be back.

PC: Chris, thank you.

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Thank you for having me.

PC: Good luck getting back in.

CHRIS VANDENBREEKEL: Thank you.

PC: Bye bye, Chris Vandenbreekel is news director at the Fort McMurray radio station, one of them. It's called Mix 103.7. Well, if you happen to be one of those returning residents in Fort Mac or you had a similar situation where you've been forced out of your home and had to return, do tell us what it's like. Get in touch with us here at The Current any way you want to. These are the ways, though: You can tweet us @thecurrentCBC. You can post on Facebook, facebook.com/CBCthecurrent, is the way to find us there. You can email us from our website, which is cbc.ca/thcurrent. Once you get there click on the ‘Contact Us’ link and while you're there you can check out pictures, links, download the podcast, cbc.ca/thcurrent is the place to do that. I'm also on Twitter. My handle is @piya. I’m Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

Killing of Harambe the gorilla sparks debate over zoos

Guests: Marc Bekoff, Kristen Lukas

PIYA CHATTAPADHYAY: Hi, I’m Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

PC: Still to come relations are extraordinarily tense between Germany and Turkey and still the German parliament passed a controversial measure this week that is a thorn in Turkey’s side: recognizing the 1915 massacre of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as a genocide. We're tracking the fallout from the strongly worded resolution and we will track that in a half hour from now. But first, the death of a great ape prompts some big questions.

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[Leaves rustling, footsteps, animal snorts]

There is more meaning and mutual understanding in exchanging a glance for the gorilla than any other animal I know. We see the world in the same way as they do. They walk around on the ground as we do. They are more powerful than we are, and so if ever there was a possibility of escaping the human condition and living imaginatively, in another creature’s world, it must be with the gorilla.

PC: That is the unmistakeable voice of the British naturalist and broadcaster Sir David Attenborough reflecting on his encounter with Rwanda's mountain gorillas. That encounter was captured as part of his landmark 1979 series Life on Earth and in his memoirs he describes it as quote “one of the most exciting encounters of my life”.

SOUNDCLIP

That intimate encounter not only moved me, it had a great effect on viewers everywhere. Mountain gorillas became iconic animals that people cared about. In order to understand how that happened, we need to examine their troubled relationship with humanity.

PC: Well, the often troubled relationship with humanity was in the headlines once again this week, of course. Last Saturday a four-year-old boy fell into the Cincinnati zoo's gorilla enclosure. The boy was dragged around the enclosure by a 400-pound silverback gorilla named Harambe, and in a decision that prompted a controversy around the world, zookeepers decided to shoot and kill Harambe to safeguard the child. Well, in the wake of Harambe’s death, there has been fury from animal rights activists together with criticism of the young boy's parents. But my next guest says the more important question is why Harambe, the gorilla was in a zoo in the first place. Marc Bekoff is a professor emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado Boulder. He is the author of the book Rewilding our Hearts: Building Pathways of Compassion and Co-existence. We've reached him in Boulder, hi.

MARC BEKOFF: Hi, how are you?

PC: I'm well. Take us back to when you heard about Harmabe being killed. What was going through your mind?

MARC BEKOFF: Yes, I mean I kept getting emails and phone calls and I didn't know the details for a while and then when I learned the details, I saw on the news people playing the blaming game which really wouldn't bring Harambe back. I began to think about what the real questions at the end were.

PC: And for you those questions were or are…?

MARC BEKOFF: The first question is why Harambe was in a zoo in the first place and then I started thinking about what zoos do and don't do to help their residents and the wild relatives of the animals who live there.

PC: Are you against zoos in general? Is it principle?

MARC BEKOFF: Well, you know I'd like to see them go away, so I am against them in principle but I know they won't go away anytime soon. My mission really would be to make zoo’s facilities where each and every individual can have the very best life possible while they are living in the zoo.

PC: Okay, we'll talk about a couple of the things that you just said, but there have been other incidents similar to this and you compare what happened to Harambe with a gorilla incident from 1996 at Chicago's Brookfield Zoo. Remind us what happened there.

MARC BEKOFF: Right. There, a young boy fell into the cage of a female named Binta Jua, who actually wound up protecting the boy against the potential onslaught, I suppose, of other gorillas in the cage and she went on and became the world's hero, if you will. That was resolved in a peaceful manner, both gorilla and the boy are still alive.

PC: So, in the Cincinnati Zoo case, the authorities are saying, look we had no choice, it was the kid's life or the gorilla’s life. The gorilla was potentially going to kill this kid, so do you think that was the right move?

MARC BEKOFF: I hate playing the second guessing game, to be honest with you. I work with populations of prisoners, I know what impulsive behaviour consists of, and I think it would be wrong to say anybody I know, including myself, having done things on the spot that we came to later regret, and that's why I wanted to move on to the questions of why was Harambe there? How did he get there, and the nature of zoos in general. I honestly can't answer that question.

PC: Okay, well let's get on to the questions that are in your mind. So, Harambe was born at the zoo through a breeding program. Jerry Stones was Harambe’s first caretaker. He spoke at a press conference this week after he found out about Harambe’s death and I just want you and our audience to listen to some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

I've been in his business roughly 50 years, 47 of them here, and I’ve worked with this gorilla family [voice breaking]. I didn't think it was going to be this rough, sorry. Okay, I worked with this gorilla family since they came into the United States. The grandparents were four-and-a-half, five years old. I unpacked them when they came from Africa. They were just little guys and I've been with them their entire lives and I've seen all the babies be born. I raised Harambe from the day he was born. He live with his Mama for the first roughly 20, 21 days.

PC: Jerry Stones is obviously very emotional there. But Marc, what do we learn about the breeding program from what he's saying?

MARC BEKOFF: Well, first of all I really feel for him. I really do. I know he loves those animals. My take is that we shouldn't be doing captive breeding and if you look at kind of the autobiography, or biography of Harambe and his family, they were taken from the wild, brought into a cage, and then made to reproduce more animals who would then spend the rest of their lives living in a cage, and may also be forced to reproduce.

PC: And so you don't think breeding programs because you're taking wild animals and you're putting them in a cage, as you say, and then their life or their progeny’s life is then kept in a cage.

MARC BEKOFF: Yeah, right and even though Harambe was captive born, if he goes on to make more babies, and I know they have preserved his sperm, then those animals are going to live in a cage as well, so yes, I'm against that.

PC: What is the purpose of breeding programs?

MARC BEKOFF: I think a lot of them are designed to keep genes alive through individuals. Claims that they preserve the species, I guess they do preserve individuals of the species, but I also maintain that these captive animals really aren't ambassadors for the wild animals. I mean, their lives are incredibly compromised. They don't live anything like a wild gorilla would live.

PC: Some would say, perhaps not the ones that are captive but the next generation, the one that knows no life except in a zoo, that if an animal is bred and born at the zoo, it just doesn’t know another life; the life in the wild, so it’s not so bad. What would you say to that argument?

MARC BEKOFF: That's a convenient argument. We don't really know that. These animals have evolved over millennia and have genes and if you will, passed in their genes, so from the fact that they may not expect to be in the wild or know what a wild life consists of, to me that still doesn't justify bringing these animals into life and then keeping them in a cage. I just don't see any purpose to it and I think there are alternative ways for people to learn about these sorts of gorillas and other animals.

PC: Okay, let me ask you about-- and you these are familiar to you and some of our listeners-- about the other reasons that people say hey we need zoos, they actually serve purposes, so here's one of them: you know, zoos often cite education behind their breeding programs. What do you think of that?

MARC BEKOFF: A massive study that was published in 2014 by the zoos themselves, show that a tiny percentage of visitors actually learned about what biodiversity is, and then even a smaller percentage learned that biodiversity conservation is really important. I know people, we all know people, who go to zoos saying they learned something. The bottom line is do they go on and do something for these animals? I mean, I'm a professor and I'm always criticized for learning for learning sake. I'm not against that but, once again, I don't think it's worth keeping animals in cages like this because someone might come in and learn something about around Harambe and/or other animals, unless they go on and really make substantial contributions to the future of wild animals, not to the future of captive animals.

PC: All right. Here's another argument in favour of breeding programs and it is one of conservation that's for the good of the species. Do you agree with that?

MARC BEKOFF: [laughs] I suppose I could agree with it in one way that you keep animals who are members of the species alive, but once again I'd rather see the money and the effort go into maintaining and preserving wild populations and their homes, critical habitats, because I do not believe that these captive individuals really serve as ambassadors for the species. If I was behind bars, I don't see how I would be an ambassador for the person or the group of people who I represent.

PC: There is the sub argument within that larger argument which is this: the case for breeding when it comes to endangered species or one on the verge of extinction, that we can preserve the remaining population if we take care of them in zoos.

MARC BEKOFF: Well, sure. So then we have some endangered species or animals who are no longer representative in the wild living in cages and once again, it removes a lot of the responsibility that people might take on if we said no more breeding, you need to save these animals in the wild, then maybe people would develop programs that indeed worked on these wild animals. The other thing it does is, these animals are leaving because of us. We're in an age that people call the Anthropocene, the age of humanity, and I call it the rage of inhumanity because we are decimating species at an unprecedented rate. So once again, we keep animals alive to go, oh look that gorilla used to live in the wild, but now they're in a cage. I just don't like that idea at all.

PC: I want to pick up on one more thing that you said earlier which is that the Cincinnati zoo confirming that it's removed sperm from Harambe so his gene pool would continue. That too, is proving quite controversial. That's a bad decision in your opinion?

MARC BEKOFF: Well, I surely wouldn't do it. So what? So Harambe is going to have kids, who then go on to live in the zoo. It's definitely a money maker, let's face it. Zoos play off of charismatic mega-fauna. You know, zoos will breed elephants who never get into the wild, they make money for the zoo. I'm not saying that that's their only motivation, I really want to be clear about that, so big deal Harambe’s grandson is in a zoo once again. Would I have done it? No, I would have just let Harambe live and die in peace and move on and stop a breeding program totally.

PC: At the end of the day so to speak, how would you like to see we humans coexist with wild animals? As you say, we encroach on their property essentially as our population goes up. How to how do we do this?

MARC BEKOFF: One way we do it, is we look at whose interests are involved and at least try to come to a balance for some kind of peaceful coexistence. I'm working in a field called compassionate conservation. There is a centre for compassionate conservation at the University of Technology in Sydney, Australia and the basic tenets of that movement, and it's a really rapidly growing movement, are first do no harm, and the lives of every individual count, and the most important thing is, it looks at human animals and non-human animals as stakeholders, so anybody would be foolish today to think that we're not going to have to factor humans in, but we can do better. There are numerous programs, in India in particular, of saying we need peaceful coexistence and we're not going to allow human interests to trump the non-human interests routinely.

PC: Mark Bekoff, thank you for your perspective on all this.

MARC BEKOFF: You bet. Thank you very much.

PC: Marc Bekoff is a professor emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado Boulder. His most recent book is called Rewilding our Hearts: Building Pathways of Compassion and Co-existence. We reached him in Boulder. Well, let us bring in another perspective now on the role of zoos and their breeding programs. Kristen Lukas is the Director of Conservation and Science at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. She also chairs the Gorilla Species Survival Plan for the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. We've reached her in Cleveland, Ohio. Hello.

KRISTEN LUKAS: Good morning.

PC: So when you heard about Harambe’s death, what was your reaction?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Oh, just like everybody else, it was heartbreaking news to learn what had happened, and just a very sad situation overall.

PC: And so you heard Professor Bekoff, and I want you to be able to react to some of his concerns, but first of all tell me this: when people go to the zoo and take their children, what do they learn about animals in their natural habitat?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Well, it varies and there is a lot of research out there that's looking to document what people are learning so that we can see where we're starting from and continue to make improvements on what people are learning, and once they do learn something or do feel connected at the zoo, then they can move forward and take action to do something for their wild counterparts. There is a large body of data that is available to anybody that demonstrates some of those specific things. Once you have an opportunity to look at an animal in the eyes, you have some sort of a connection and Dr. Bekoff is right that that connection isn't enough and from that point we need to be able to do something. The Gorilla Species Survival Plan and AZA zoos are absolutely committed to the conservation mission and creating opportunities for people to take action.

PC: Do you folks at your zoo have a breeding program?

KRISTEN LUKAS: No, Cleveland Metroparks Zoo houses a bachelor group, but as the chair of the Gorilla Species Survival Plan, I oversee the management of nearly 350 gorillas in 51 zoos, also the S.S.P. has a breeding program for that population.

PC: And you heard Professor Bekoff raising concerns about breeding programs in zoos, what benefits do you see then that are gained from breeding programs?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Well, of course the most important benefit is that it sustains a population that has high level of genetic diversity for a long period of time, so it provides an opportunity to display family groups in the zoo and it also ensures that the population is a healthy sustainable population. I think it's important for people to understand that gorillas have not been brought into the Gorilla S.S.P. population since the passage of legislation in 1973; the Endangered Species in the convention for the international trade on endangered species, so it is an important way for us to maintain that population. We do keep it at a reasonable size. We make decisions that some animals may breed and some may not based on the relatedness of the individual animals and the goals of the population as a whole.

PC: So not since 1973 have you brought a gorilla in from the wild and put it into one of the zoos that you represent?

KRISTEN LUKAS: That's correct.

PC: They are all born in the zoos?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Born and bred in the zoos.

PC: Okay, so that's like Harambe, he spent his whole life inside a zoo. Is there a benefit of raising an animal in captivity from birth?

KRITEN LUKAS: Well, you know of course, yes. If the individual gorilla is born in a zoo and raised by its mother and in a social group, the behaviour and the experience of those animals is remarkably similar to what you would see in wild gorillas. I was very touched to hear David Attenborough's voice at the beginning of this piece, that was unexpected. Some chills to me here, and his experience is very much what I've experienced when I see mountain gorillas in Rwanda, as well. The thing that touches me the most is that they're very, very similar. The behaviour that you see between individual animals, the care that you see from the mother to the infant, the protective role of the silverback, the juveniles playing together, we are not displaying gorillas in cages. We have large and dynamic habitats that we are trying to recreate so we can put forth that natural behaviour so that people can learn and feel connected and be inspired.

PC: You heard Marc Bekoff make the case that for him, they were born and bred in a zoo, they are at you know, generations before wild animals and so that's not a good enough argument for him; the sense that they only know this home and therefore they're fine there. What do you say to that?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Well, first I want to say that I think Dr. Bekoff and I share very, very similar views. The vast majority of things we're discussing this morning, he's talking about compassionate conservation and so am I. Our unofficial motto for the Gorilla S.S.P. is that we care for gorillas to conserve gorillas, so we too believe in individual welfare. We absolutely are focused on making sure gorillas are cared for as the best we can possibly care for them. We also prioritize the learning that people are able to experience as a result of seeing gorillas, and then we also are very committed to making sure that there is a direct connection to conservation. There is more science needed to make sure that animals are experiencing good welfare, that people are learning what we think they are, that they are learning what we want them to be learning, and that they absolutely have opportunities to take action in the moment when they're at the zoo and feeling that connection to do something for conservation.

PC: I talked with Marc Bekoff about this as well, that the Cincinnati Zoo has kept Harambe’s sperm. How important is it to maintain a genetic pool of these animals?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Of course we want the population to be healthy and we are places of science, so it is important that we learn as much as we can after an animal passes away. We do take opportunities to get engaged in research where we might learn more about the species or the individual animals and so collecting the sperm for those purposes is very important. It's also good to have, should we need something like that in the future. We don't currently use artificial reproduction in the zoo population, the gorillas breed naturally just fine, and I think that whether or not his specific genes are directly represented in the future isn't necessarily important. What's most important is that the population overall maintains that genetic diversity.

PC: The other point I raised with Marc and I want to talk to you about is about some zoos have raised endangered animals and they say they're going to go extinct, so we need to do this. We raise these endangered animals and then release them, some zoos do this, into the wild, so for example, Canadians helped re-establish Vancouver Island marmots. Are there other examples of that?

KRISTEN LUKAS: Yes, absolutely. There have been a number of examples of zoos that have been participating in broader conservation programs and part of their role is to do the propagation of species or individuals in the zoo setting so that they are available for re-introduction. Good examples of that are the black footed ferret, the chevalski horse, the Puerto Rican crested toad, the Atwater prairie chicken, there's a number of examples where the expertise that is throughout AZA zoos has been used to supplement a larger conservation action plan that is helping to support the conservation of a species in nature.

PC: Professor Bekoff also said, I want all zoos to eventually close. We're not at that day yet, but I want to see them eventually close to help benefit animals. What's your response to that argument?

KRISTEN LUKAS: I understand his critical thinking when he said that he was interested in making zoos better. We are in exactly the same boat. I got into this industry because I was inspired by a National Geographic show on Diane Fossey and the work she did with gorillas, and the first place I went to channel that enthusiasm was to my local zoo. It was from there that I've been able to build the opportunity to work with Zoohouse gorillas and also have a major impact on what's happening in the wild. I think if we are doing our best to promote animal welfare, to conduct a science that helps us understand what animals need to be happy and healthy in zoos, and then we take that to increase the learning that people are experiencing and then helping them take action, I mean currently zoos in the last five years, have contributed $4.5 million dollars to Gorilla Conservation, that’s a significant amount of money, and zoos are individually taking action to support long term commitments to field projects.

PC: Kristen Lukas, we will have to leave it there. Thank you for your time.

KRISTEN LUKAS: Thank you for having me.

PC: Kristen Lukas is the Director of Conservation and Science at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. She also chairs the Gorilla Species Survival Plan for the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. She was in Cleveland, Ohio. We did request an interview with the Canadian Association of Canada's accredited zoos and aquariums, however no one was available. I know you have something to say about this, you can get in touch with us here at The Current. You can find all the ways to do so by going to cbc.ca/thecurrent. I’m Piya Chattopadhyay, thanks for listening.

German recognition of Armenian Genocide causes friction with Turkey

Guests: Franziska Brantner, Dorian Jones, Stephen Kinzer

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hello, I'm Piya Chattophadyay, and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Crowd applause, cheering]

PC: And those are some Armenians outside of Germany's parliament, who are ecstatic; Turkey, meanwhile, is furious. It's all in reaction to an historic resolution passed in Berlin's lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, yesterday. Germany has formally recognized the massacre of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as a genocide. It becomes one of more than twenty countries to call the century-old massacre a genocide with that resolution. But it's opened a fresh wound, and at a time when relations between Germany and Turkey are already tense; and critically important with Germany depending on Turkey to slow the flow of migrants into Europe. The genocide resolution may have been focused on what happened in the past, but it may have ripple effects for the European Union and the ongoing migrant crisis. Franziska Brantner is a MP with Germany's Green Party. She chairs the Bundestag's Subcommittee on Conflict Prevention and Crisis Management. And we have reached her in Berlin. Hello!

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: Hello.

PC: So your party yesterday voted unanimously to support the resolution. How did you personally feel when it passed?

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: It was a moment of joy on the one side; on the other side, really, a feeling of responsibility for the past. Also for Germany's past, in terms of its looking away a hundred years ago at what happened to Armenians. So, you know, there were mixed feelings in terms of a real deep responsibility. Also, you know, in terms of what will be the repercussions today. And on the other side, a joy, because we have been, as Greens, been introducing the resolution a year and a half ago, and we have been trying to get it passed for a long time.

PC: Let's talk about Germany. Specifically, why is it so important that Germany took this step? Other countries have done so, more than twenty nations have recognized the 1915 killings as a genocide, but help us understand why it's so important to Germany.

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: For Germany, it's important in different respects. One, it that we have a large community of former Turkish immigrants who are today German citizens, but have still strong, of course, relations to Turkey. That's one issue, so it's a larger community than in any other European country. And second, of course, Germany is an important partner of Turkey, it's an important country within the E.U., so it makes a difference if Germany votes on it. And a third reason is, of course, because of our own past with the Holocaust and with the atrocities that have been committed in our own past by our own forefathers. So I think that makes a difference in terms of Germany passing that resolution than other parliaments.

PC: So you mentioned Germany's own history of genocide with the Holocaust, and that sort of guilt, if I can put it that way, empowering the vote yesterday. Does Germany also bear some guilt because it was an ally of the Ottoman Empire during that period?

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: Yes, totally, Yes, very much so. And actually, a lot of the resolution focuses on Germany's part, because there has been historic research and a lot of scientific research in terms of Germany's role at the time and it's very clear that the Kaiserreich at the time was very much aware of what was going on and told people on the ground and it's responsible to look away, not to intervene, not to interfere, but to let it happen. And I think, you know, that it really bears the sign of also responsibility of letting genocide happen under your eyes and with your sort of silent agreement. And that's why, in that resolution, we state very clearly also Germany's, or the Kaiserreich's responsibility for what happened at that time.

PC: Well Turkey's president, Erdoğan, he has ordered the Turkish ambassador back home from Germany as retaliation. Are you concerned about Germany, as you said, it has a very important relationship, especially right now, with Turkey. But are you concerned about the moves by Turkey, and further followed?

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: From the Turkish side, it was expected to be critical about this resolution. It has been critical of this resolution in the past, and it's very interesting to see that inside Turkey on this issue you have an alliance of Erdoğan's party and his people as well as the nationalist parties and their supporters. So it's a very large sort of group. And we were aware that they will be repercussions. But you know, there is never a good time to vote as a resolution on genocide and to call the truth by its own name. So there were a lot of people arguing it's not the right moment, but we have been working on this now for a long time, and it was never the right moment. And if you ask people when would be the right moment to cast this, they cannot tell you. And I don't think the repercussions will be so strong. We fear much more the debate that would happen in Turkey if we also, for example, now as German Bundestag would block the visa liberalization process for Turkish citizens. With that, have really individual consequences for Turkish citizens today.

PC: So you're not concerned about-- you know, Germany really needs Turkey right now and Turkey needs Germany, in terms of dealing with the migrant crisis. You need the Turkish authorities, or you've asked, your government has, to help you guys out, to stem the migrant flow. So could this dispute affect the E.U.'s refugee agreement deal with Turkey, do you think?

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: No, I don't think so. I think the one issue that could put it aside is the question of visa liberalization, so the idea that Turkish citizens could travel into Europe without getting a visa first, so they would have a visa waiver program. That was promised to the Turkish in return for managing the migration flow. And I think that the German parliament, there are some factions here who would like to block this. Because they don't want to be in that relationship, to have Turkish citizens coming without a visa. But if we put that at danger, I think then there would be real dangers for the entire settlement to oppose. So I think that will be the major testing case, and I think that we have to be really clear it was not about Turkish citizens today, it's not about them being guilty, but it's about the a shared responsibility to work critically on our joint past, on our common past, and to make sure that such things will never happen again. That's sort of where we see responsibility.

PC: Franziska Brantner, thank you for your time, I appreciate it.

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: No, thank you.

PC: All right, bye bye.

FRANZISKA BRANTNER: Bye bye.

PC: Franziska Brantner is a MP with Germany's Green Party and she is the Chair of the Subcommittee on Conflict Prevention and Crisis Management of the Bundestag. She was in Berlin. Well, for a sense of how the German resolution is being received in Turkey, we have reached Dorian Jones. He's a freelance journalist based in Istanbul, and that's where we've reached him. Hello.

DORIAN JONES: Hello!

PC: So take us to Istanbul. What was the reaction of the Turkish government in response to the German parliamentary vote yesterday?

DORIAN JONES: Well, there was a lot of anger. They were saying that this was a cynical attempt by the Germans to cover up their own dark history, that was the German Turkish Foreign Minister's response; while the prime minister said that this was another attempt by the government to divert the people's attention away from Germany's own problems, and they said that this was a cynical misrepresentation of history. It was a slight on the Turkish people. It was the usual nationalist rhetoric, and there was a great deal of anger. Also, the Turkish president, too has been warning that there will be consequences. While on the streets, we saw some protests. There was an ultimum band outside the German Consulate in Istanbul, and there were a few hundred nationalist protesters voicing their anger, too.

PC: Okay, well at least with rhetoric, the Turkish government said there are there are going to be consequences, so let's talk about it. They've already pulled their ambassador. Is it likely that the Turkish government will break diplomatic ties in any permanent way with Germany, or is this just a temporary reactive sort of measure?

DORIAN JONES: I think is temporary reactions, here. In fact, the Turkish ambassador, when he arrived here in Ankara, was turning around and saying that there will be a very calm and logical response. He's already playing down expectations of anything worse. And in fact, the prime minister has also said that they won't be any rupture to Turkish-German relations; he said it's an important relationship, but he said there will be measured responses. And speaking to people ahead of this, experts, they said that no one expects any major attack on Germany, purely because Germany is too important a partner for Turkey. It's Turkey biggest trading partner, so any trade war would hurt turkey as much as it would hurt Germany at a time the Turkish economy is slowing. And any idea of severing diplomatic relations, that's not seen as valuable, because there are over three million ethnic Turks living in Germany. So I think already now, we're seeing a walking back of the rhetoric, a calming down of tensions, and I think that both sides will want to play this down as soon as possible.

PC: You know, it's interesting that you say, you know, that the government response may not reflect what you have seen and heard on the streets by regular Turks. And I mean, who is the Turkish government then trying to appease with their response, at least up until this point, at least that rhetoric?

DORIAN JONES: Well, I mean, it has to be said. I mean, that while there were protesters on the street, it's nothing like what I've seen in past, when other countries-- namely France, a few years ago, when they recognized the Armenian killings as genocide. There were mass protests. There was really angry burning of French flags, people throwing objects at the consulate, and embassy; it really was a very ugly poisonous, atmosphere. The country really was, in many ways, boiling. It isn't like that today. I think it's a measure of a number of factors: one, is there is genocide fatigue. Germany's now, there's more than twenty countries around the world have now recognized this as genocide. Germany's just another one. Also, I think there's a recognition in the country that this come, Turkey is facing far bigger present dangers. There's a civil war on its border, there's a raging war with Kurdish rebels within the country, and also the recognition that Turkey is becoming increasingly isolated. Turkey doesn't have many friends in the world and people in the country recognize that, too.

PC: And as you say, more than twenty other nations have done this and you spoke about the reaction when France did it. And yet many analysts say that the German vote-- what Germany thinks, what Germany does, as it pertains to this issue-- is more significant for Turkey. Do you see it that way?

DORIAN JONES: Well, I think it's significant in a number of ways: one, is because it's such an important country to Turkey, and Turkey has, in the past, successfully lobbied the previous German governments-- and this government, they managed to delay it a year to avoid this, because the relations all seen as so important on both sides. So I think that there is, and I think in many ways, I think those that are trying to lobby against countries recognizing the genocide, Germany was seen as one of most important countries to stop, and now that it's failed. The last remaining country, and I think internationally, in the Armenian diaspora will be focusing, is America. When the United States, if at some point recognizes it, then I think Turkey will realize the game is up. And I think also, there are some real concerns, particularly over the U.S. going forward. Because if the U.S. does recognize the genocide, this opens the door to massive lawsuits against Turkey. And that is the big fear among Turkish nationalists and politicians across the board, that if the genocide is internationally recognized, then Turkey could face massive reparation claims and there are even fears that there could be territorial claims made by Armenia. So there are concerns, real concerns among them, in the minds of some in Turkey

PC: Help me understand that, what the international recognition of this-- I mean, in that the U.S. needs to be part of that for reparations. Because arguably, already there has been international recognition of the genocide.

DORIAN JONES: Well, I mean, legally, from what I understand and speaking to experts, is if the U.S. recognizes the genocide, the genocide doesn't have a statute of limitation. So there could be the potential for many cases, legal international cases against Turkey for sizable reparations. As of yet, that hasn't occurred, but that is a concern. At some point down the road, Turkey could face billions and billions of dollars of claims. You have to remember that as many as 1.5 million people are believed to have died; many more were forced from their homes. So there is that potential, and you speak to Turkish politicians, they say there is this potential clear and present danger. And also, there are elements within the Armenian government who claim that there are large parts of Eastern Turkey that belongs to Armenia. And this is a region that is becoming increasingly unstable. Borders are becoming increasingly less secure, then people say that this could be a threat. Maybe not now, maybe not in ten years, but certainly, possibly, further decades ahead.

PC: Dorian, it is interesting, because on the one hand you mention this fatigue that sort of set in amongst the Turkish people, given that so many other countries have already taken the step that Germany has. And yet, you mention what happened in France. So I'm just curious, how have the attitudes of Turkish people changed over the years in how they view the Armenian genocide?

DORIAN JONES: Well in many ways, there has been this almost revolution that has occurred in Turkey among sections of Turkish society. Ten years ago, you couldn't even mention the word genocide without the risk of prosecution; or even worse, what happened to an Armenian Turkish newspaper editor in 2007, who was gunned down by Turkish nationalists because he was calling on the country to recognize what happened in this country. And this was someone I knew pretty well. After that, in the last few years, there has been this change. It has become part of the debate. People openly talk about that there was an Armenian genocide. Every year now, there are commemorations to mark the mass killings, to mark the genocide in Turkey, and members of Armenia's diaspora attend that. And that goes by and passes without reaction or even protests from Turkish nationalists. That is something new. The country is slowly, at least sections of Turkish society, are now starting to delve into their past. But the fear is that Turkish nationalism is on the rise again. The Turkish president is whipping it up, and they fear if that continues to rise, this process could be stopped.

PC: Dorian Jones, thank you very much.

DORIAN JONES: You're welcome.

PC: Bye bye.

DORIAN JONES: Bye bye.

PC: Dorian Jones is a freelance reporter in Istanbul. Germany's move this week to recognize the Armenian genocide may have been a weighty resolution, but it was far from the first Western country to do so. Here is the Canadian House of Commons, from April 25th, 2004.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: That this house acknowledge the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemn this act as a crime against humanity. All those in favor of the motion to my left will please rise.

VOICE 2: Yeas, pour. 153. Nays, contre: 68.

[Sound: Applause, banging]

VOICE 1: I declare the motion carried.

[Sound: Applause]

PC: That was the sound in Ottawa from 2004. For more of a sense of how Berlin's move this week could affect relations between Turkey and Germany, I'm joined now by Stephen Kinzer. He was the New York Times Bureau Chief in Istanbul from 1996 until 2000. And his books include Crescent and Star: Turkey Between Two Worlds; his latest book is The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War. Stephen Kinzer is in Boston. Hello.

STEPHEN KINZER: Good to be with you.

PC: So you know, we heard from the MP, the Green Party MP saying there really isn't a good time to do this. That was sort of the criticism that people said, like, now's not the time, there's a better time, she's like, there's no good time to do this. Why do you think Germany passed this resolution now? Is timing important?

STEPHEN KINZER: This is something that Germany has been wrestling with for a long time, partly because of Germany's involvement in that episode in the spring of 1915, and partly because of Germany's particular interest in going back over the past and acknowledging sins of the past. Germany likes to feel that it's the leader in the world in confronting reality, so I think this is something that makes sense to them. But it's part of a larger global effort to get parliaments around the world to pass these kinds of resolutions, and it shows the weight of the episode and of the lobbying effort behind it. You don't see parliaments passing resolutions condemning, for example, Britain for the genocide it supposedly committed in Kenya in the 1950s. So parliaments are not particularly equipped to investigate historical episodes, nonetheless, for political reasons and maybe moral and internal reasons, there's a sense that this is the right thing to do and that becomes something that overwhelms details about historical fact.

PC: And German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the other reason for her that this German vote went ahead, it's designed to try to bring about reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. What do you think of that idea?

STEPHEN KINZER: I was quite puzzled by that comment. It would be nice to think that this resolution was part of a larger project aimed at Turkish-Armenian reconciliation, but I don't see any project like that underway now. There was, actually, an agreement signed between Turkey and Armenians, which was a great agreement, signed partly with the help of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and that really seemed to offer us a way out of this. Unfortunately, ultra-nationalists on both sides killed the agreement. The difference is that in Turkey, the ultra-nationalists are inside the country, they're in Turkey, whereas the real Armenian nationalists are outside Armenia. My own sense in my travels to Armenia is that the issue of the genocide is not such a big deal in Armenia the way it is in the diaspora. Among Armenians in France than in the United States and in Canada, this is a huge issue. But if you're living in Armenia, you have many other concerns. Armenia is poor, it's isolated, it's military dominated, it's hemorrhaging people. So genocide is not really at the top of the list in the minds of Armenians inside Armenia, but it's a huge issue that binds the Armenian diaspora together and to their homeland.

PC: You know, we heard from the reporter Dorian Jones just now, said this kind of pitting rhetoric against reality on the ground, and I think you're speaking to that, as well. But Turkey has pulled its ambassador to Germany. It's a practical move. Is that retaliation, is that reactive, what's the-- is there a long game in that?

STEPHEN KINZER: I don't think there's going to be serious diplomatic repercussion from this act. It was interesting to me to notice that all of the major cabinet ministers in Germany who are, of course, also members of parliament, didn't show up. Nobody was there: the Finance Minister had urgent ministerial business, the defense minister had to attend a science conference. I think that might have been a little bit of a symbol, a signal, perhaps, to the Turks that we don't want to blow this up, we're not going to make this into a huge issue, this is something that came up in part of our normal business. And the absence of the major cabinet ministers from the Bundestag when the vote was taken, I think also does send a signal to the Turks that we should try to keep this from escalating too far.

PC: And on the Turkish side, President Erdoğan-- Turkey's got a lot of issues that is confronting right now, to put it that way. I mean, can he use this German resolution for his own political advantage at home?

STEPHEN KINZER: To a certain degree, yes. Erdoğan is trying to play the nationalist card. He has broken off the talks with Kurdish forces, for example, and that has given him credibility among nationalists. Denouncing countries that single out Turkey as an evil force in the world, or having committed crimes in the past, is something else that stirs up nationalists. So yes, I think Erdoğan, in a way, takes advantage of this to show his nationalist credentials.

PC: Okay, and the key issue right now, as I understand it, tell me if I'm wrong, is that-- between Germany and Turkey, is one of the migrant crisis. That Turkey is needs to do its part of stopping people moving from Turkey, the migrants, into Western Europe. What would it take for Turkey to say, you know what, we're not going to do the thing that we agreed to. What would it take for Turkey to decide to flood Germany with Syrian refugees?

STEPHEN KINZER: Much more than what just happened in the German Bundestag, that's for sure. I think that Germans would have to announce that any idea of a visa free travel for Turks into Germany or into the E.U. is off the table, and any further talks about bringing the E.U. and Turkey closer together are finished. That really would set off the Turks, I think, in ways much more significant than what just happened.

PC: Right, and in your view, that's not likely to happen, though?

STEPHEN KINZER: I don't think so. I think both sides really need each other. They're caught up in a kind of a unfriendly embrace, and they understand that breaking that embrace going to be bad for both of them. So although the Turks can be emotional at times, I think behind closed doors, they'll realize it's not in their national interest to blow this up beyond what it already is.

PC: Yeah, and to that point, emotional and somewhat unpredictable, I think, some people would say, in terms of Erdoğan and what he does, action-wise. And Turkey's membership in the E.U. is pending. So what could Turkey do now at this point that would influence President Erdoğan's steps or reaction to this vote in the coming days and weeks? I mean, is it at risk at all?

PC: I don't see there really being a great risk in Turkey or between Turkish-European relations. I do however think that there are steps Erdoğan could take that would increase the friendliness toward Turkey, open this door to Turkey in Europe. Those would be mainly steps he would take inside Turkey to try to pull back from the increasing authoritarianism that has characterized his rule over the last few years. I don't see that happening, he hasn't given any signs that he wants to move back on to the democratic path. If he were to do that, that would certainly be a greater step towards improving Turkey's position in the world than anything that would have to do with the events of 1915.

PC: You know, it's interesting, 25, I think it is now, countries have recognized this as a genocide. Germany's just the latest to do so. And as we heard from our reporter, Turkey's responded before with outrage and in different ways, and it seems a little bit more reserved nowadays. When other countries have been recognizing the Armenian genocide, Turkey has come out very forcefully and then sort of pulled back. So do you see more countries recognizing the Armenian genocide moving forward if Turkey doesn't do something dramatic?

STEPHEN KINZER: The United States is the country that's the next focus, I think. The odd thing about this to me is that it's all a semantic discussion. Was it a massacre, was it a slaughter, or was it a genocide? In the modern world, you have to have been the victim of a genocide, otherwise you're really not in the major league of suffering. I covered the killings in--

PC: [interposing] Except for it has legal implications, right?

STEPHEN KINZER: Potentially, not yet. But I was going to say, I covered the genocide in Srebrenica, as it's now called. When I was there, it was 6,000 people killed and it was a mass murder. Now, it's risen to the level of genocide. In Turkey, it's true. There are people, Armenians, particularly in the diaspora, who are talking about using this as the beginning for financial and even territorial claims. So that's something Turkey's really worried about. There haven't been any steps in that direction yet, but I think it's a legitimate fear. And certainly if Armenians could assure Turks that that wouldn't happen, that would probably reduce tensions. But there is no way Armenians could do that, because they can't commit every army in the world forever from refraining from further claims against Turkey in the future.

PC: Stephen Kinzer, good to talk to you, thank you.

STEPHEN KINZER: Thank you.

PC: Stephen Kinzer is the author of Crescent and Star: Turkey Between Two Worlds. His latest book is called The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War. That is The Current for today. We started today's show by talking to people in Fort Mac, where tens of thousands of people are returning home, starting that rebuilding process. So we're going to end with some music that's dedicated to them. Edmonton musician Mike Braniff, who often performs at a Fort Mac pub, recorded this song and posted it to YouTube last month. He calls it, "We are the Mac." I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. Thanks for lending us your ear here on the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: "We Are the Mac" by Mike Braniff]

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June 3, 2016 full episode transcript

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