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The Current Transcript for June 24, 2022

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Shelter is now a crucial need. Food, medicine, you know. I mean, human things are really, really essential.

DUNCAN MCCUE: As Afghanistan digs out from one of its deadliest earthquakes in decades, aid workers are saying getting humanitarian assistance to hard hit remote areas is proving difficult. How to help those in desperate need. Coming up in 45 minutes. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

The global illegal logging trade is absolutely massive. It's about $157 billion on the conservative side, on the low side.

DM: The black market in timber is booming. In an hour, we'll talk to an author about her conversations with tree thieves and why you may have poached wood in your home. Also on the programme, CBC's Chris Hall drops by with a sneak peek of his interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He'll also reflect on his 30 year career covering politics as he gets ready to retire. But first, how some of Canada's small towns are celebrating Pride Month with their first ever Pride parades. I'm Duncan McCue in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Small-town Pride parades help LGBT Canadians 'feel like whole people, wherever we are'

Guests: Greg Klassen, Kjerstina Larson, Trevor Taylor

DM: Pride is back after the pandemic hiatus. Celebrations are back on this summer across the country. And while the excitement and spectacle of pride are fixtures in our big cities, it's been more of a struggle for those in some rural communities to show their pride. But that is starting to change. Take Altona, Manitoba, population 4000. It held its first ever pride parade earlier this month. Greg Klassen grew up in the nearby community of Carman, Manitoba. He moved away shortly after he came out when he was 19. He was invited to speak at Altona Parade.

SOUNDCLIP

Pride was taught to me as something that was wrong. It was. It was. It was one of the seven deadly sins. It was, you know, it was next. It was next to vanity. And I'm telling you that that is not correct. It is okay to be proud. And I'm standing here today as somebody who was so happy that I came out when I did, even though it wasn't a particularly great time in my life. To the young people here, I say to you, if you're struggling, please, please, please talk to someone. Do not hide. You have nothing to hide. Talk to somebody that you can trust. And to the people who are here as allies. I say you rock, we need you.

DM: Greg Klassen is joining us this morning with Kjerstina Larson. She is the director of Vanderhoof Pride. Vanderhoof is in northern B.C. and has a population of about 4500. Its first pride event is tomorrow and Trevor Taylor lives on Fogo Island in Newfoundland, which is even smaller. He's the director of Fogo Island Pride. Good morning to all three of you.

GUESTS: Good morning.

DM: Greg, let me start with you. That must have been quite a moment for you speaking at the Pride Parade in Altona.

GREG KLASSEN: Yeah. It was a very exhilarating moment, to be honest. I grew up pretty close to there, about an hour away from Altona, but I went to Mennonite Private School just a few miles away from where I spoke. And so it has a lot of memories for me and it was definitely a full circle moment and obviously I think you can hear it in my voice, but a pretty emotional one.

DM: You left in the eighties, Greg. What was it like growing up in your community?

GREG KLASSEN: Well, I think what's important to know is just as a as a gay person. First of all, my my My religion, my community didn't really believe that anybody was gay, first of all. But, you know, there was no representation. There was no one to look up to, to say this is what you could be or what you might become. And so I think that I was pretty on my own. I was pretty isolated. Of course, you see your life differently when you look back on it, but I think I just didn't really know anybody else who was gay, and so I felt pretty isolated and pretty alone. Yeah.

DM: You said that that being in a mennonite community made it particularly difficult. I mean, did you you sound like an extrovert in many ways. And what was that like for you as a teenager?

GREG KLASSEN: Yeah, that's a good question. I think I was I definitely am an extrovert. I, I think when I was younger, I was very comfortable in my own skin and didn't worry too much about what other people thought of me. And then when I went to Mennonite Private School in grade 11, it was quite a huge change for me because I had never, I was 24 hours a day living with the same kids under the same roof. And I was kind of aware that I had to be a little bit more careful about whether I came out or not, who I was, because I, I just, you know, I wasn't sure what could happen to me. I, I guess the threat of violence was definitely there. And yeah, I just, I lived in a lot more fear for those two years. I was in private school for sure.

DM: Kjerstina What do you have planned tomorrow in Vanderhoof?

KJERSTINA LARSON: Oh, we have a whole bunch of activities that will be planned. So we have like rock painting and face painting and hula hoop contests and oh my God, there's roller skating. Tie-Dye just it's just a plethora of activities, basically.

DM: Sounds like lots of fun. Let's talk about the lead up to it. It all started with a letter you wrote to the local paper about a rainbow crosswalk. What happened?

KJERSTINA LARSON: Well, I wasn't the first one to write a letter, but we got our crosswalk last year and I felt inspired to do an impromptu photo shoot in 2021 and with pride centred around the crosswalk. And we did. And I just thought, Hey, you know what? I got 60 people out. I think this town is ready to have a pride event.

DM: And what were people's reactions to the crosswalk? I mean, did you have were you pleased with the 60 people turning out? I mean, Vanderhoof is a is very also a very religious town.

KJERSTINA LARSON: It is very religious and I was really happy with the turnout. I didn't actually expect anyone to come. The crosswalk was a point of contention. I will have to say, and it has been vandalised many times. It is being watched now and so it's just been repainted. It has not been vandalised yet.

DM: You said it's a point of contention. How was that expressed?

KJERSTINA LARSON: There was a lot of comments on Facebook from certain individuals who are very vocal about not having the rainbow crosswalk and how it wasn't right. And there was a lot of people that would go and put skid marks on it with like even their bicycles they tried to.

DM: What was that like for you?

KJERSTINA LARSON: It wasn't easy. It was, it was kind of difficult to see, but. It was also led to some really good experiences. After it was vandalised for the first time, an elementary school went out there with coloured chalk and they coloured in over the burnouts and stuff, which was really beautiful and touching to see.

DM: Trevor, let me bring you into this conversation as well. You organise your first event in 2019. What was the reaction in Fogo Island?

TREVOR TAYLOR: Really, for the most part, very well received. I mean, we had a very small committee that came together in the very in the very beginning. Myself, my partner. But I always basically joke that we were going to start our own pride parade by just grabbing our flags and walking down the street. But we got the gumption up to get a group together. And we actually did the planning a full week of events four years ago or three years ago now. And with really good turnout, we had a flag raising here in our local arena and a free community barbecue where we had speeches and fanfare. And at the very first event, even though we're only a town of 2200, we actually got somewhere between 75 and a hundred people out to that event that year. And then for the rest of that week, we had after readings, the local library came into it as well. We had a bonfire at the local beach here, and all of those events were very well attended. So that very first year we were very pleased to see that there was so much support in the community, in a small community. To Christina's point, there were then those still those those as incidents where we had flags that were handed out in the community that were ripped down or vandalised. And those were those are things that happened. They happened the same way in in larger spaces as they do in rural ones.

DM: There were also some videos posted.

TREVOR TAYLOR: Yes. Yeah, there was actually a fairly disturbing incident where we had a programme because we recognised it at the time when we first started right here on the island, that it was very unlikely that people actually had pride flags. So the committee got together, we had a raise the flag programme giving out flags to anybody in the community who wanted them. And we actually had representation right across the island here. But there was an incident where a flag was removed from the residents house. And there was a video that then circulated later on that night of of this person stepping on the flag, spitting on it, and and just being very vulgar. And it was hate filled and that was circulated. So that was something that we we had to do with our very, very first years. And even unfortunately, up until just two days ago. Now it's, you know, three years on, we don't even need to ask people to raise flags anymore. They just go ahead and they they do it. They do it now. But we're still hearing reports of our flags being vandalised in the community.

DM: I wonder, Trevor, I mean, moving away is is part of the Newfoundland experience in some ways, but but is it particularly acute for LGBTQ folks in terms of needing to move away to come out?

TREVOR TAYLOR: Yeah, I mean, in our experience here, I mean, I'm not originally from the island, but having been here for seven years, typically any folks who were here would wait until they either graduated from high school or they moved away from their families here before they would actually go through that that that coming out. And I think it's part of the I mean, the charm of being in a rural, remote place and is the culture that there's a there's a shared experience of the people in the community. And that really almost in a lot of ways is in direct opposition to what the to us LGBT community is, that we really embracing diversity, which is not something that you necessarily see in small towns. So I think for for many folk, it's the, the, the, the going away to find your community. But in my experience, it means it doesn't really matter where you are. It's a matter of the people around you. And if there's not a community that's already started, you know, be that magnet to draw those people in and create your community. And that's what me and my partner tried to do.

DM: Let's go back to Altona for a minute. Lauren Hamm is 17 years old in grade 12. They carried a banner at the front of the Pride march.

SOUNDCLIP

TREVOR TAYLOR: There definitely was problems with my school. There were just people who didn't fully understand that, hey, gay people are humans too thing. And it's just there was a lot of internalised homophobia and external homophobia and just no one really wanting to do anything about it.

DM: Greg How much do you think things have changed for LGBTQ plus youth in small towns?

TREVOR TAYLOR: I think they've changed quite a bit, but I think there's a lot more to happen. I mean, as these stories are told, I just wanted to add that As much as there were some protests in Altona, I did have an immense amount of joy seeing 500 people march with rainbow flags down the main streets of this town. And also, when I asked for the flags. There were little flags along people's houses. And I said, not flag, sorry, just sort of little drawings and stuff that were Rainbow. And I said, Where do these come from? And they someone said, the children of the certain church made them. So that really warms my heart as well as one of the local churches apologised for its treatment of gay people and I think that was huge. It felt very, very sincere and authentic. So there were some really, really powerful moments. But to answer your question, yeah, I think I think there's a lot more change to happen. I think that big faces need to be really, really prioritised for queer kids especially. I think there's so few places where where kids can come out and feel like they are actually themselves and feel safe. So there's there's more change to happen for sure. But I'm very heartened by the fact that these things happen in smaller towns. And to Trevor's point, of course, many gay people move away from their small towns to go to larger cities to find community. And I think that will continue to happen. But I think what's important is that we can go back to where we came from, and live if we want to, but just to feel like whole people, wherever we are, because we don't we don't have to congregate in quote unquote ghettos. We we should be able to live and work wherever we choose.

DM: Greg, you did move to Vancouver and there's a large LGBTQ community there. But I wonder, is that part of the challenge that some queer folk may not be city people, they may want that that rural lifestyle, they may want, you know, the all of the attractiveness of of of small towns and being out in in rural areas.

GREG KLASSEN: I think so, yeah. I mean, it's funny that you say that because I was as I was thinking about this last night, a really important moment for me. I know this happened in a city in Vancouver, but when I was around 21, I joined the gay volleyball league in Vancouver. And it was really important for me to meet people outside of bars. And it's not nothing against Bach, but I just I wanted to kind of just like play volleyball on a Friday night with 80 gay people. And as somebody who hadn't really been embraced in sports in high school, you know, that was incredibly important to me. I think the same thing holds true of living in rural spaces. As I said, we should be able to live anywhere. And Trevor is making it very I'm actually wanting to move to Fogo Island, listening to and talk. I think, you know, I love nature and I like quiet spaces and so I don't necessarily want to live in a large city and I don't, I shouldn't have to just because I need that to find my community.

DM: Kjerstina Greg just mentioned safe spaces and a pride parade or a crosswalk is one thing, but. But beyond that, how important is it for for your town to have space spaces, safe spaces for LGBTQ people and in particular young teenagers?

KJERSTINA LARSON: I think it's really, really important. And we do have a [unintelligible] lead at the school, but we would like to start like a group after this, like a support group for people, even just doing activities and just starting to foster that community within our community.

DM: And safe spaces in Fogo Island. Trevor What. What does that look like?

TREVOR TAYLOR: I mean, I think for us it's the I mean, one of the biggest projects of football I'm proud of undertaking right now after being established for so many years. And we're actually in the in the work of creating and establishing an inclusive community centre because on top of what for one prise does for the queer community, we're also we also run a local food bank and food security programme. We also provide mental health and wellness training for the Mental Health Association. So we become so many other things. But those safe spaces and those queer friendly spaces are so few and far between. So again, it's this. It's this not looking for or seeking to try to fit in anywhere. It's creating a space where, regardless of how you identify, you can feel that you belong and that you can be whoever you need to be. I think Greg makes an excellent point in the sense of, like you, we shouldn't need to change and mould and adapt ourselves to fit into into a culture that- I don't think it's that black and white. And I think that we often kind of associate rural areas with not being safe spaces, but it doesn't need to be that way. It just needs to be recognised within the community that already exists.

DM: I mean, Trevor, you and your husband have been very, very visible standing up and you know. And how much is representation an important part of this conversation?

TREVOR TAYLOR: Oh, it's it's huge. I mean, for myself, again, not from full blown, but I actually grew up in a town just outside of St John's. I mean, even in 2020, my people, I didn't actually have anybody in my community who I could look to as a as a role model. I mean, yes, there was people on TV. Yes. You know, those conversations could kind of happen and would flick up. But there was nobody that was directly in my life that I could look at and say, is this person who is living a happy and successful life? And I think for me and I'm an educator as well, and I've always lived very openly and honestly with my students and with families in the schools that I've worked in. And it does it does make a difference. I mean, I've had students come up to me and say, you know, sir, I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing with both love and pride. It made it so much easier for me because it wasn't just in the school, it was in my community, and it started the conversations and amongst families that maybe would have never, never happened like that flag waving is a symbol. Yes, but it starts the conversation and it's a powerful one.

DM: Kjerstina. Greg mentioned that that he was particularly touched when he went to see that some of the churches were were embracing the message at at Altona. What about in Vanderhoof? Are are attitudes changing there?

KJERSTINA LARSON: I don't know exactly if attitudes are changing, but I know that a lot of people are coming out of the woodwork as allies are under the LGBTQ two plus umbrella, which and I, including many people from the churches and with the churches, it's always kind of a mixed bag. You never really know what the viewpoint of the church is. But we have some churches that fully support it and are really happy about it and some churches that really disagree with it.

DM: And I mean, again, how concerned are you about some of that backlash that you've gone there? I understand there was a couples that that didn't want to get their picture taken at the crosswalk. What was that like for you?

KJERSTINA LARSON: It was really difficult, but really it hurt my heart to see that these people couldn't be who they really were, that they had to pretend. And it was really difficult to actually.

DM: Greg, I mean, again, for you growing up, Mennonite and Mennonite Private School, are you encouraged by it, by what you're seeing? Is it happening or is the change happening fast enough?

GREG KLASSEN: Well, but change isn't happening fast enough. No, but it's definitely happening. And yeah, I'm very encouraged. I love what Trevor just said about representation. I think that's absolutely true. I went back to Altona because I wanted those kids to see a happy, successful person who came from not their community, but their area. And and it's fine, you know, and I, I do think that there's more that needs to happen. But this is a monumental moment for a community like Altona, I want to thank Peter that for organising this event. I think it just to see gay people and queer allies walking down the streets, it's a huge change. I think it says to these kids that they're going to be okay, that there are people like them, that there are safe places they can go, that there's someone they can talk to, and that there are people in their community who get it. And so, that, that's monumental.

DM: And Trevor, I'm going to give the last word to you is how does Fogo Island Pride get bigger and better.

TREVOR TAYLOR: Year by year there, year by year. I think just giving in and keeping on doing what we're doing as I, I don't think it's I mean, a lot of people have said that like we're overdue ... we're changing the community, we're changing the culture. And I would argue against that. I think that we're just bringing out what was already there, but never really had the voice. And I think creating those spaces, creating those groups, making those connexions even I mean, one thing that the pandemic really did for everybody is that it connected us virtually, digitally, you know, across the country, across the province. So if you're not seeing it in your own community, reach out to those bigger organizations and ask for that help. I mean, that community can be there and maybe you could be that spark that that brings it to yours.

DM: I want to thank you all for for joining us and Happy Pride Month to all of you.

GUESTS: Thank you so much. So much. Thank you.

DM: Greg Klassen was a speaker at Alta's first pride parade in Manitoba. Trevor Taylor is the director of Fogo Island Pride and Kjerstina Larson is the director of Vanderhoof Vanderhoof Pride. Celebrating with their first parade tomorrow. Well, the CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

I will always call out unacceptable rhetoric and hateful language wherever I see it.

DM: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been blamed for antagonising protesters during the occupation of Ottawa's streets by convoys this winter. He defended his position to the CBC's national affairs editor Chris Hall in a wide ranging interview. In six minutes. Chris Hall joins us to discuss that conversation and a look at the year so far on the Hill as business wraps up for the summer. Plus, a devastating earthquake in Afghanistan has left the already battered country in desperate condition. And we'll check in find out more there. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

Chris Hall on interviewing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau; helping those hit hardest by Afghanistan’s deadly earthquake

Guests: Chris Hall Mohammad Golam

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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DM: Still to come, getting to the roots of the global illegal timber market. But first, a tumultuous six months on Parliament Hill.

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DM: The House has risen for the summer and is won't be back in Parliament until September before the parliamentary break. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke with CBC's Chris Hall about the eventful year that was and what's to come. Chris Hall is the host of the House on CBC Radio. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS HALL: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: Your full interview with the PM is going to air on Saturday. We'll hear a bit of that chat in a moment. But first, I just want to ask you, I mean, if you had to sum up the year on the Hill, how would you do that?

CHRIS HALL: Oh, I'd use a lot of adjectives. Eventful, hectic, chaotic and maybe one more crisis driven. Although I'm not sure that's an adjective. But if you think back to January, protests disrupted life in downtown Ottawa. For weeks, the federal government invoked the Emergencies Act for the first time ever to try to bring the occupation to an end. We had a budget that began to roll back benefits related to the COVID 19 pandemic, and the country responded to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, helping Ukraine with both weapons and financial assistance. And then in our own last couple of days, an announcement about bolstering defences in the Arctic. DUNCAN It's it's clear that the Russian invasion has sparked a new concern around continental security even here in North America.

DM: You mentioned Ottawa and the trucker rally. Yesterday on the programme we were talking with employees about the rise in toxicity and anger in political discourse and how it's really reshaped their jobs. I mean, personal panic buttons being issued. What do you think about that discourse and the anger and how that's going to look for life on the Hill going forward?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah, that's a great question. I'm not sure I really know at one level. Security around Parliament Hill is obviously getting tighter. The protests this past winter forced political leaders at all levels to reconsider who should in fact be responsible for policing in and around the parliamentary precinct, all the buildings here in downtown Ottawa. But on another level, Duncan, this toxicity is also destructive because while politics is always adversarial, elected officials are expected to express their views freely. These personal attacks, mostly on social media. Police reporting threats directed at elected officials. These aren't conducive to robust debate over ideas and the kind of disinformation, in particular on social media, that helps fuel this anger. And I'm not sure Duncan, having talked to any of them, that they see things improving in the short term.

DM: Okay. You brought some clips from your interview. What are we going to hear first?

CHRIS HALL: Well, I asked him about the approach he's been taking, particularly when it came to the vaccine mandates, the restrictions that prevented people who weren't vaccinated from most travel, even in some cases, from going to work. And whether looking back, if some of his own statements contributed to the anger when he referred to some of the people behind the protests and blockades as a small fringe minority and people who held unacceptable views.

DM: Okay, let's have a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

I will always call out unacceptable rhetoric and hateful language wherever I see it. And you will remember in the last election, we saw an awful lot of it during the campaign from people who and we're not talking about and I was never talking about people who are hesitant towards towards a vaccine, but, you know, trying to be reasonable about it and trying to stay safe. I was talking with those who were deliberately inciting fear and misinformation and anger and deploying themselves in extraordinarily unacceptable ways.

DM: So, Chris, he sounds like he's is digging in his heels a bit about whether he's added to the political tensions that we're seeing across the country. What do you think, Chris, as he cool tensions are added to them?

CHRIS HALL: You know, it's hard to say. I remember back to the campaign, Justin Trudeau trying to respond to the first protests he encountered by saying he understood the anger and he tried to sound more conciliatory. But in our interview, I think that's a good example of how he now believes that he needed to call out the disinformation around vaccines and to push back against people who are deliberately, as you said, trying to stoke fear and anger. The question is, did it work? Well, one measure may be that, you know, 83% of Canadians, 31 million people are fully vaccinated against COVID. And the pressure now is on getting people back to work and filling vacant jobs. So at least to that extent, I guess he's weathered the worst of it potentially. And now we're looking at how do we get the economy moving again.

DM: When I think back about again, the protests in Ottawa, though, over the winter, I mean, so much of that was directed at Justin Trudeau and and I mean, very much there was a personal nature of some of the kind of attacks he's been facing. You've surveyed politics for a long time, politicians. How how different is that, that anger and aggression that he's facing right now as prime minister compared to two leaders of the past?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah, every prime minister in my working life has dealt with hostility and anger. You know, the father, Pierre Elliott Trudeau, faced down separatists in Quebec and intense anger and criticism when he invoked. A War Measures Act. Brian Mulroney was accused by his opponent, John Turner, of selling Canada out with the free trade deal, a deal that we're still arguing about decades later. But the difference with Justin Trudeau is in some ways is that he's the first prime minister Duncan to try to govern in this social media age where people are bombarded with information and opinions that are almost entirely unfiltered and largely unregulated. And the challenges his government has faced have been multifaceted. The pandemic now, the war in Ukraine, the highest inflation rate in nearly 40 years, and now a possible recession coming, a housing crisis. Plus his own issues, his own efforts to try to deal, for example, with indigenous issues and inequality. I think all that's added to the sense that we've been dealing with crisis after crisis, and it's made him the focus of much of the anger that Canadians.

DM: Feel and talk about crisis. What about the emergency to the actor you spoke to, to Justin Trudeau about that. Let's let's hear some of that clip.

SOUNDCLIP

Our deliberations and who thought what and what within cabinet. That's important that it be, you know, secretive so people can continue to have have confidence that when they give it fearless advice in cabinet that's protected. But what we were looking at as a situation across the country that that brought us to that decision. That absolutely is what, amongst other things, the public enquiry is looking at. It will include the situational reports and the and the the reality that we were facing across the country. Yes.

DM: Chris, why is it important that there be be full transparency on this?

CHRIS HALL: You know, it's important, I think, for people to understand when you're using a piece of legislation for the first time, which includes some extraordinary powers, that people understand the full consequences of of the decision that was made, but also all of the things that led to it being made. And you heard him say there, short of cabinet confidence, it sounded to me like he's prepared to make sure that all of the advice that they had, the material they had in front of them will be made public. So people can actually see why they decided to make the decision they did.

DM: What did you make of that answer?

CHRIS HALL: Well, it was surprising in some ways. He was very forceful about it. And I think that up until now, there's been some confusion about how far the government was prepared to peel back the layers of what was going on at the time and what they were being told. He acknowledged he had legal advice from the Justice Department. They had advice from public safety. We haven't really heard the details of that. And anyone who remembers back to January and February, this place was locked down for three weeks or people who couldn't go to work. There were incidents of people being harassed, primarily people of colour. There was, you know, basically a carnival like atmosphere half the time on the hill. And, you know, there didn't seem to be a willingness to go willing a willingness or that the police didn't even seem willing to actually enforce a request to get them to go. So this is one of the first times, I guess I've heard from him that he is really prepared to let people know exactly what they were being told before they decided to invoke the emergency act.

DM: Let's shift away from the Liberals and the Prime Minister for a second and look ahead to the Conservatives because of course they're picking a new leader in September. What should we be watching for in that race this summer?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah, you know, I think it's not just who is running for the leadership, but it's more about what kind of party the conservatives want to be. Is it going to be a party remained, you know, primarily rooted in the West, in more rural parts of the country, leaning perhaps to a more populist view of politics, that governments should be minimally, minimally involved in people's lives. Or do they try to be more of that kind of progressive, conservative force trying to reclaim the centre right of the political spectrum, which I know Stephen Harper didn't do exactly, but he at least made his party and when he led it more palatable, people living in the suburbs around Toronto, for example, in Vancouver. So that's the battle that I see shaping up between now and September, when the ballots are cast of both what this party would be and what kind of government they would form, depending on who the next leader is.

DM: Okay. I want to shift away for for a moment from talking about big picture politics to talk about you, Chris. You're retiring soon.

CHRIS HALL: I am. I'm retiring at the end of next week.

DM: That's I mean, what a career you've had. Three decades covering politics.

CHRIS HALL: Yeah.

DM: You must be getting a little bit reflective. But but I have to, I mean, you talk about Justin Trudeau being the prime minister who has had to deal with this divisiveness in social media and how that's reflecting in politics. And I want to ask you, I mean, what's it like for you reflecting on the tone of politics right now compared to where it was when you started on this 30 years ago?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah, you know, Duncan, I believe now what I believe when I first began covering politics, that the vast majority of people who run for office do so because they believe in public service. They want to make a difference in the way the country is run. They have ideas they'd like to see be part of the public discourse. And yes, over the years, I've covered a lot of. Really. A heated debate over the the invocation initially of the anti-terrorism act, for example, after the horrible events of 911. You know, politics are supposed to be adversarial. MPs have strong opinions. They're not afraid to share them. But what is different to your point is that the anger is closer to the surface on all sides. The debate is more personal than I can remember it. You know, I don't know if it means the country's any more divided than it was before. I remember Joe Clark when he was in charge of the Constitution negotiations on Charlottetown, telling us on CBC Radio back in 1992 that he hadn't seen people ever so angry and that they were weighing in, in political channels in ways that he hadn't anticipated outside of political parties. So it's not a great place. So I think the country finds itself and right now when it comes to political discourse, but I don't think it's that unique.

DM: There are a lot of Canadians, though, who are cynical about politics right now. What about you? Have you gotten cynical?

CHRIS HALL: Not at all. I think this is a really important place to be working and the things that we cover here matter. You know it. If you think about it at its most basic level, the people who serve in government are on a contract with the people who elected them. There has to be a connexion between what they decide here in Ottawa or in any legislature for that any capital in Canada and the people who live in their communities. So our government is working to make life better for those people. Do they see better futures ahead for their children or for the next generation? And I've spoken to so many people on my programme and as a journalist's reporter who feel disconnected from those decisions that are being made on their behalf. And I think that's where the real challenge lies as we get into this area where there are so many more sources of information, where the usual rules haven't applied, that this is going to really matter if people are going to engage in a way that's constructive and see that their governments are working for them.

DM: I was always I always felt comfortable hosting check up or The Current knowing that I had Chris Hall on the programme. Because you have such a passion for politics and you know, really a politics wonk. So what's next?

CHRIS HALL: That's a good thing, right?

DM: Yeah, it is. Absolutely. What's what's next four years ahead into retirement?

CHRIS HALL: Well, I'm going to take the summer off, spend some time with my daughter who's going off to university. And my wife and I think about in the fall, if there's something else that might interest me, not as a journalist, I'm done with that. But, you know, maybe volunteering. I don't know. I haven't really thought about that, but to be honest.

DM: All right, Chris, thank you so much for sharing your years of service at the CBC. And and we will, of course, tune in for the prime minister's interview.

CHRIS HALL: All right. Thank you so much, Duncan.

DM: Okay. Chris Hall is for a little bit longer the host of the House and the CBC's national affairs editor. You can hear his full interview with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau this Saturday at 9 a.m., 9:30 in Newfoundland on CBC Radio One.

[Music]

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the current. Afghanistan's eastern region is in desperate need of humanitarian assistance. The country's Khost and Paktika provinces are reeling from Wednesday's earthquake that left more than a thousand people dead and more than 600 injured. At least five more people have been killed in a tremor today. Aid is in short supply. Only a handful of humanitarian groups are still operating in Afghanistan following the Taliban's takeover last August. Ajmal Majboor is the Humanitarian Programme Coordinator for Afghanistan for the non-governmental organisation Islamic Relief. He's on the ground in Paktika province. Ajmal Hello.

AJMAL MAJBOOR: Yes, I can hear you.

DM: Can you describe the damage you're seeing in the areas where you are?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: I feel the damage is very bad. Hundreds of houses. Houses are destroyed. More than 1300 people are killed in this recent earthquake. About more than 3000 people are injured. People are on the ground still searching for their loved ones if they could get them out of the walls of the homes that are destroyed. The situation is very bad. If you are on the ground trying to provide emergency responses, but it's more than a what is being done here. If drinking water is not provided? I'm afraid that we will have a very serious outbreak of waterborne diseases.

DM: You said there are still people searching. There have been reports that some of the searches have ended. Can you describe that for us?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: We have seen three places where people were using their very basic machineries to try and make sure that it's still their lives or even if injured but alive family loved ones.

DM: The Taliban has put out a call for urgent assistance. How much help is available right now?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: Since it's a very remote area, even from the provincial centre, it's mountainous area. The roads are very bad. The infrastructure is not good here. So it takes time for assistance, even emergency assistance. Some relief agencies are here for for very basic health services.

DM: And so what type of assistance and aid is needed at the most at this point?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: At the ground level, we have done our assessment. And shelter is the very essential part because people are living under the sky. Food assistance is very essential. Drinking water and services. These are the very essentials that we have to deliver on time and very early.

DM: How about your organisation? How are you responding to the situation right now?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: We will be covering for the time being more than 900 families with food assistance and when we are finishing that, we are training our level ministry to be engaged in transition shelters for those who have lost their families.

DM: What's the biggest challenge that that you and other aid workers are facing at the moment to try to get that help to people?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: No Internet or mobile signals here. You don't have any information from outside the world. I have to go probably one hour drive to go to be engaged and connected to people then. Lack of market. Local market is not available to compete in assisted here. It has to be purchased and then transported from capital Kabul. So these are very few but big challenges for the humanitarian actors.

DM: What are people in the region doing right now to survive?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: If it disseminates are only looking for assistance, there is drought, snow, agricultural products for the past three years. So it's only assistance and assistance from international community probably to the time when they can stand by their own food.

DM: Even before this earthquake. Ajmal Afghanistan was facing an economic and hunger crisis. How much harder is it going to be now for the country to address that wider crisis when you got this emergency going on?

AJMAL MAJBOOR: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Over the past few months, the situation is not good considering the economic conditions of the people. 28 million people are in emergency food assistance and other assistance. So the humanitarian actors and the international community, they must provide that assistance to the people that have supported the people of Afghanistan in the past, and we hope that they will support them at this very difficult junction.

DM: Ajmal, thank you very much. I know it's been very difficult and you travelled afar just to talk with us, so thank you and stay safe.

AJMAL MAJBOOR: Thank you.

DM: Ajmal Majboor was on the ground in Paktika province in Afghanistan. Mohammad Golam Sarwar is the head of the programmes for Afghanistan with the same aid organisation. He's coordinating help from Kabul. Mohammad, hello.

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Yes, hello. How are you?

DM: I'm doing well. Can you describe how your organisation is doing and trying to get aid to those who need it right now?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Yes, Islamically, virtually we're in the ground. Our team went to the field yesterday in the area. So we're responding for food. Initially, more than 1000 times. Next on two days, we'll be covering 1000 families for one month full back. Gradually, it will allow for our intervention, particularly the other sector as well, like shelter and non-food items, water, sanitation.

DM: This area, Paktika, is so remote. And I wonder, I mean, Afghanistan's emergency services were already stretched. What kind of resources are there in terms of aircraft or helicopter to reach these places?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: So our team went there to in order to road communication. So that is that is the only way to go there. A helicopter and other thing is we don't have these facilities within our, you know, our football organisation. So where you can get to a real communication and it's very tough. It's very tough, actually more than 10 hours or report yesterday to reach to the affected villages. So it is quite obvious mountainous area and people like you know a long time they in in the in the road.

DM: But most of the aid agencies pull out of of Afghanistan after the Taliban took control last year. How much is that contributing to the problem?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Yeah, the U.N. agencies are there many other international organisations. So all are working together. You Yeah, a few organisation may not be there, but the, the who are there, they're trying to respond in a coordinated way. E In difficult area.

DM: Are the Taliban cooperating with, with those who are coming from the, from outside.

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Yeah. We are getting support from the, you know, the defector through T and you know, U.N. is facilitating the coordination of.

DM: The United Nations said that at one point that they have not yet received a search and rescue request. And so is is the relations with the Taliban and the international community part of the issue here?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: So ponder this quickly so we could use support to use infrastructure regularly on these injured people, risking them from that area in the damage area. So it's quite a lot of we know that is. So it is still, the facilities support is not adequate. It's required a lot of support from external support agency to conduct the rescue operations.

DM: What are the next few days, just the next few days ahead looking like for you in terms of trying to to get aid to people and then trying to to to rebuild?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Yes. So actually, people in the coming days, they'll be suffering, you know, disease outbreak. And we they need support for water and sanitation and they don't have you know, so they don't have food stock. So they need food supply. They don't have you know, they lost their livelihood. So they need to rebuild their livelihood. So that is of the area in longer term of abated and so need to think about and the shelter a temporary they need shelter support in in future they need permanent shelter or like more than 2000 shelter houses are damaged. So all those houses that are required to be rebuilt.

DM: Earthquakes are not uncommon in Afghanistan. I wonder if there's something about this one that has made it particularly bad.

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Actually earthquake is not common but this earthquake was very strong and one the factor that is really in Afghanista that area and other areas the houses are made by mud. So the high number of casualties have been because of the you know, the infrastructure housing made form mud. During that week all houses or damage and people actually were killed in saying go in there and it was in that night-time, it was in midnight. So that also contributed to people are sleeping and suddenly that hit come and they realised they couldn't come out. So that also contributed for a huge number of casualties.

DM: And you're saying that the houses are made of mud? I mean, have there been efforts in the past to try to improve the housing conditions there? How challenging has not been?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: So that is actually traditionally people made their homes with mud because of the, you know, the extreme weather. So that is the traditional way of making housing in Afghanistan.

DM: And so can I. A last question for you. What are your what are your big concerns right now as your organisation tries its best to to get this aid to people?

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: We're actually now one of the most important things for us to know getting more resources and support more people, rescue the more people. The economic situation in Afghanistan is so, so challenging to, you know, to collecting or processing all these commodities in addition to the area. So those are the challenges. But we would say that we need more resources to do this to the more people.

DM: Mohammad, thank you very much for sharing your time.

MOHAMMAD GOLAM: Thank you. Thank you so much.

DM: Muhammad Golam Sorwar is the Islamic Relief head of programmes in Afghanistan. He's in the capital of Kabul. Well, coming up after your regional update, the tree thieves will learn about illegal timber operations that spanned the globe. That story in 90 seconds. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. Stick with us.

Who is stealing trees from the forest? Problem has economic roots, environmental impact, says author

Guests: Lyndsie Bourgon

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

LARRY: This is the first trio trip across where I came out here. And as you can see, it's a pretty big western red cedar.

BRIAR STEWART: This is one of the few stumps Larry Pinn has stumbled on. This nearly nine year old tree was chopped down illegally.

LARRY: Something like this is not being taken for firewood, that's for sure. It's a it's a valuable tree.

BRIAR STEWART: Right. And these are like big slabs of wood here.

LARRY: Yeah. Yeah, they are. And someone was really doing what they're doing. They're organised kind of old equipment. They'd done their research. They knew the spot.

DM: That's CBC's Briar Stewart in a forest on Vancouver Island, reporting on tree poaching for the National Illegal Timber is big business in B.C. and even bigger around the world. As a reporter, Lyndsie Bourgon has spent years investigating the illicit trade in stolen timber. Her new book is Tree Thieves: Crime and Survival in North America's Woods. She's with me from Clearwater, British Columbia. Lyndsie, hello.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Hi, Duncan.

DM: We just heard a scene of a tree in the in the woods that had been poached. What have you seen when you've been out looking for evidence of tree poaching in BC's woods?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah, well the first case of tree poaching that I ever heard about was in British Columbia on Vancouver Island, and it was about a decade ago now that that story came out. It was a 800 year old cedar tree that was poached from the Carmona Walburn. And since then I've actually had the benefit of going out with some natural resource officers on B.C. Crown Lands and BC parklands to you to see what the poaching looks like that's taking place here. And it's really similar to to what Brian Stewart was talking about in her report actually there. So kind of old growth, Douglas fir cedar sometimes Sitka spruce cut down very close to the road and and being sold into the market in various forms.

DM: How old were some of those trees that you saw and what was it like to see them, the remains of them?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Mm hmm. Yeah. Some of them were quite old, so upwards of 300 years or so, and some of them were were young. And it just kind of depended on really the spot that the that the poacher chose to enter the woods and cut down a tree. And what it really ends up looking like is often a stump in the woods. Sometimes there is duff and branches left behind because the the tree has been cut down and trimmed and gotten ready for transport out in the back of a truck. And in some cases, there were actually pretty large chunks of the trunk left behind. And it's it's thought that those are left behind for later retrieval, that they couldn't all fit in the back of the vehicle and that people would be back to take it out.

DM: How big a business is tree poaching in B.C.?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Well, in North America overall, the conservative estimate is that poached timber is worth about $1,000,000,000 annually.

DM: Wow.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: And yeah. And in British Columbia, that figure is about 20 million per year. The both of those figures, like I've said, are conservative. And that's because it's actually pretty hard to identify poached wood. So it tends to be kind of serendipitous that that poached trees are found and that that dollar figure is then extracted and deduced from. So 20 million on the on the low side, it seems that over a couple of year span, it's common that there would be hundreds of trees poaching poached in British Columbia.

DM: I've got all kinds of questions about where this would is ending up. But but but before we get there, I mean, one of the things that you do so nicely in this book is, say, is is point out that this is not new tree poaching. I mean, it goes back and and you trace it back to to early Britain, for example. Can you tell us a little bit about the history here of tree poaching?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah. And so this was something that really motivated me when I first started reporting the book. I think I started off writing the book thinking this is going to be a crime story. And it very, very quickly turned into a history, a historical account. And that's because timber poaching is a pretty traditional activity. And when I when I first talk about, for instance, the Charter of the Forest, which is a document that was a mediaeval Middle Ages document that was kind of draughted alongside the Magna Carta in England. Many, many, many years ago, access to the woods was seen as a human right because the woods provided life, it provided materials for shelter, provided home for wildlife that was then hunted. It was a place where people walked through. So it was kind of like a transitory landscape at the same time. And over time, those those sections of wood were enclosed. They were fenced off and removed from the common use, often by bureaucrats or aristocrats or the monarchy and and kind of taken away from common use and turned into preserves that were meant kind of just for hunting. And a big form of protest against that became going into those preserves at night and taking wood and kind of poaching animals and using that as a kind of statement that, you know, that you knew what had been taken away from you and that it was, you know, a community resource that you were entitled to, that you needed to live. And I thought that was very interesting. And I ended up hearing some pretty serious and overt connexions to that when I was interviewing poachers for this book. I think that they really felt the same way.

DM: One of the things that's interesting about going back that far is this notion of of, you know, coalminers, as you describe them, versus the wealthy landowners and poaching as being kind of a form of resistance to that. How much does does that continue today in terms of the problems of of privatisation of land and people's access to to the woods?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah, I think it links in a couple of ways. So. First is that it provides a narrative that a lot of people can really identify with. And so hearing stories about Robin Hood, for instance, if you feel that you're not able to work in the industry that your family worked in and that you know that you're a particular appreciation of the woods is not being respected anymore. You can really kind of latch on to this story of these poachers and Robin Hood and kind of taking from the rich and and giving it back to your community.

DM: And you're talking about loggers in particular?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: I am, yes. Yeah. And another way is that much of the poaching that I talk about is happening from in the United States national forests and national parks and then up in Canada, provincial parks and crown lands. And even though that's that, they are managed in a different way than than the historical look of land owned by the monarchy and kept for hunting. It still appears to many people that powerful decision makers have made the choice to take land away from common use and away from useful contributions to the economy and to people's lives, and say this is no longer yours to use anymore. So there's a bit of a conflation there.

DM: And so that gives us some insight into into perhaps why a poacher might be doing this. But but on the other hand, I mean, you describe this as a as a $1 billion industry annually. Industry, if you want to call it that. But but I mean, it's hard, I suppose, to make people care about these trees in the same way that we might care about poaching elephants or rhinos.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, the the chief ranger of of redwoods, National Park said says to me that redwood redwoods are actually the rhino horn of the West in terms of how rare they are and how in demand they are. And it's this is something that is often talked about in conservation circles, the kind of disparity between protecting landscapes and flora and kind of ground and soil and and natural world, as opposed to simply fauna and charismatic fauna in particular elephants, rhinos, lions and tigers. They're all in need of protection, but it often is is a bit easier to argue for protection of animals.

DM: But what about a hundreds, hundreds year old tree? I mean I mean, what's what's lost when when we lose old growth forests to poachers?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Oh, well, old growth is kind of by definition, irreplaceable. It's certainly irreplaceable in our lives and it's irreplaceable in our children's lives and our children's children and all of that. So old growth, particularly, for instance, old growth, redwoods, they hold a significant amount of carbon per acre. Old growth forests, like the ones that we have in B.C., they are they're incredibly rich habitats of biodiversity. They're comparable to the kind of very rich, carpeted, forested land in the global south, like like the Amazon. And when it's removed from the forest that that carbon storage and that biodiversity is removed along with it, even dead standing trees. So sometimes, you know, trees are not immortal. They don't live forever, but they are often dead standing. Even when those are removed. You're taking away an invaluable habitat for things like endangered birds or or even other flora and plant life like mosses and and fungi.

DM: You write about the World Wide Web. Tell us what that is.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah. So the World Wide Web, that is a term that that really has actually sprung from the work of a Canadian scientist named Suzanne Smart. And that is essentially an understanding of how. Trees communicate through their roots and underground through mycorrhizal networks. And it's really quite amazing. And essentially her research has shown that. Underneath the canopy, underneath the forest floor that you and I walk on. Trees are able to communicate through their food systems. Things like. Things like if they are experiencing drought, if pest attacks happens, if certain parts of a forest are going through a traumatic moment, other parts of the forest are essentially able to contribute nutrients and assistance to that part of the forest. So it's a community network of communication. And so even though a single tree might look like a single tree to us, above that, it's actually a part of a huge communication network.

DM: And so if poachers are going in, even dead wood, then is is is is impacting that that would wide web.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yes.

DM: Hmm. Yeah. So so let me ask then, I mean, how do enforcement agencies try to crack down on on poachers? Tree poachers in B.C.? Let's start there.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Sure. I mean, this is this is kind of an ongoing challenge for any any kind of park law enforcement around the world, including in B.C.. So when I was spending some time with natural resource officers on Vancouver Island, we were talking a lot about the use of tip lines. So they had installed signs that reminded people in the forest that we're visiting the forest, there's no firewood harvesting here. It's prohibited to take a tree. If you see anyone doing that, call this tip line. There were, in some cases, hidden cameras placed in strategic areas where some poaching, if maybe a couple of trees had been poached from a similar area, it would it would kind of prove that perhaps a poacher might return there and a hidden camera would be placed in the tree. Sometimes the approach would simply to be pulling over people that had wood in the back of a vehicle as they drove down a highway and asking for the permit for that would often. It is informant based though. So. Really reliant on community members or mill owners to contact the department and say, listen, I saw someone with wood that just I know came from a protected area or that had been poached. So. Or would that even look too old like a male can identify? Right. If if, if what is new growth or old growth? And generally most of the old growth. In particular areas is preserved. So they're really relying on male owners to say. That's what came in. They didn't take it.

DM: So they're relying on snitches. I mean I mean, how how well are they able to catch tree thieves?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: It's pretty rare. Mm hmm. There are, I think, about four cases in the book that I follow of of people who have been kind of convicted of charged with tree poaching and convicted and fined. And that's over a decade long span. So it's really quite, quite rare to find someone.

DM: And what kind of penalties were those people facing?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Usually it's a financial penalty. What would happen is that a assessor would come in at some point during the the trial process or the investigation process and and value the wood, which is a very interesting process on its own, because that would is valued at market rates and considers what the wood would get at the mill. But it doesn't consider the ecological value of a tree, it doesn't consider the tourism value, which I think is notable. You know, tourists visit and bring funds and money to an area simply to see some of these trees because they're so impressive. And that doesn't factor into the the cost of the the fine.

DM: Which is is part of the the the hard thing to fathom is, you know, what kind of person would cut down just on such a beautiful old tree and not just on the West Coast? I mean, where do you point out that it's maples, for example, on the East Coast and some old growth maples that are that are extremely valuable.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah. And one black walnut. Sure. Particular. At one point it had been kind of talked about in research circles as kind of the next up and coming wood for poaching. But it's now fully kind of arrived. There is a big market for poached black woman.

DM: So what did you what has you started to to explore who these tree thieves were? What what kind of did you did you get a portrait of the typical tree thief?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah, well, it's interesting because I think when I first started doing my interviews, they really were. Around the topic itself. And so I would often ask law enforcement officers or Forest Service researchers or park managers, you know, who who's doing this? And they were all very sensitive. But eventually they would say, like, listen, we struggle with poverty in these areas. We particularly struggle with drug misuse. And that often motivates this crime. And I knew that I was not going to publish this book without actually kind of extensively interviewing some of these people. And I wanted to go out and ask if that's that's how they how they saw themselves, if that was the motivating factor. And in many cases it was true. You know, there are poaching happens usually around. Small nursery in small towns around protected areas. And most of those small towns really have struggled coming out of the deindustrialisation and that kind of slow down of the timber industry and poverty has been on the increase in these rural areas and as has her drug use, particularly methamphetamine use. So when I was interviewing poachers, some of them discussed this with me, some of them didn't, but it certainly was a motivating factor. And what I thought was interesting was just that it really it really showed how a shift in culture and a shift in environmental conservation and are our priorities really affected this region? And this was downstream of that. This was one implication of what has happened.

DM: So it can be incredibly lucrative then for for some of these local guys who who are who are going out and selling wood. But but you make the point that there are also organisations around the world that are involved in poaching trees.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah, the global poached wood or the global illegal logging trade is absolutely massive. It's about $157 billion on the conservative side, on the low side. And that takes many shapes and forms. You know, it's it might be a timber company operating in Eastern Europe. Logging way past a boundary marker of where their permit may have allowed them. Or in South America know, it's often a similar type of poaching. Poaching far into the forest, well past what a permit may say and into conserved indigenous land. And in both cases, often forged paperwork kind of allows that wood to be sold to exporters who then sell to manufacturers, which then export again that product back into North America and into the western kind of consumer market.

DM: And you raise, you know, South America, you went down to Peru. I mean, we all know how important the Amazon rainforest is in terms of being a carbon sink. But but I mean, what is that what is the tree poaching scene like down there?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: When I was in Peru, I was focussing primarily on poaching from preserved indigenous conservation land. So in Peru, they have kind of a concession system set up, which is not too, too different from up here, where the land is kind of chunked up into business development land. This this land can be logged. This land is managed by a local community. And there is poaching that takes place on land that is meant to be conserved by local communities there. And I wanted to know more about that. But poaching happens across all of the all of the concessions down there, for sure.

DM: It's not hard to imagine that indigenous communities would understand implicitly. I mean, they experience firsthand the impact of deforestation. Yes, but how equipped are those communities to try to tackle poaching?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: In all the communities that I that I visited, they had set up a number of warden posts pretty deep into the woods that community members would go and stay out so that they could monitor and listen for the sounds of chainsaws, for instance, striking up in the middle of the night. And generally, there's just there's so much more land that needs to be monitored down there that it just is almost impossible to have someone on that kind of looking out at all times. In some cases, communities had paired with NGOs or or local governments to receive funding to put sound activated monitors in the trees. That might alert community members if if there is someone walking nearby or if a chainsaw or a fair amount of noise was happening in the forest. But in most cases, it was it was really placed on the local guardians.

DM: It may be easy for a listener right now to be, you know, to, you know, saying that's awful about the trees. But but here's here's where we're all implicated somehow. I mean, where where does this illegal timber end up?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about the South American poached, what in particular or global parched or poached what, it's ending up in our supply chain for sure. So the what that I was learning about in Peru was coming from a tree called the Sheba Wako, which is an increasingly poached tree, kind of on its way up to paralleling mahogany in terms of trade and and kind of ecological importance. And that wood is often exported and manufactured into hardwood flooring. Paquette Flooring in particular, which is sold in and ends up in North American and European Western homes. In North America and also Rosewood from Madagascar. Most of that what is ending up as musical instruments. There's a very strong trade in what's called music wood. That's what that just conducts sound really beautifully. And so there's a really strong market for it. And some of the largest guitar manufacturers in in the world have been caught using illegally exported and illegally logged wood to make their musical instruments. But there is some very interesting work being done to actually match tree DNA or in another case to match the kind of chemical compounds in wood to a specific tree itself, a specific species to show that this one has been poached.

DM: But at the end of the day, I mean, what you're describing in the book is it's kind of a cat and mouse game between between the poachers and those who are trying to stop them. But who's got the upper hand right now?

LYNDSIE BOURGON: I've been trying to think about this, I think. Socially. The Rangers have the upper hand in that. We can all probably understand why this is of a concern to them and why they might need, for instance, more resources to to kind of go out and catch people. It's so hard to catch a poacher that technically I think the poachers have the upper hand, but they do not have the upper hand socially at all until the kind of socio economic divides that make poaching desirable and worthwhile are are addressed, that inequality is is going to remain and that that affects them most.

DM: Lyndsie a fascinating book, a nuanced book. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.

LYNDSIE BOURGON: Jimmy gwich.

DM: Jimmy gwich. Lindsay Morgan's new book is out this week. It's titled Tree Thieves Crime and Survival in North America's Woods. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. Coming up on Monday on the programme, a look at the crisis in emergency rooms across this country.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So I went to the emergency room and got stopped at the door. And then they asked me the COVID screening test questions and I said, yes, actually, I diagnosed a week ago and these are some symptoms I'm having post COVID. They said, Well, because you had a positive COVID test in the last week. You go wait in your car, give us your cell phone number. And when the triage nurse is ready to see you, they will call you. So I had to go and wait in my car alone while I could have been having a heart attack until the triage nurse called me, which was four and a half hours later.

VOICE 2: My father wasn't feeling quite right, and I took him to the hospital. We were there for 9 hours. He just didn't want to do that wait time. He just wasn't feeling well enough to sit there in a chair and wait. I did finally convince them and this time took them by ambulance for three weeks after his first visit to emerge. I too k him back. We were 13 hours in emergency and then another 4 hours in a waiting room. It was 13 hours before I was told they would admit him. It was 12 hours before a doctor even saw.

VOICE 1: So I'm in my car for four and a half hours wondering if something bad does happen, do I try to stagger back into the hospital or do I call an ambulance to get me out of the parking lot and out of my car and into the hospital? So after a four and a half hour, the triage nurse finally called me and I went in and, you know, they checked my blood pressure and, you know, took my history again and then sent me back out to my car for another four and a half hours. So I ended up waiting in my car alone for a total of 9 hours, as a 52 year old man with a history of heart disease complaining of massive chest pain.

VOICE 3: I'm not going to be so quick to go to emerge when I and it scares me to think that there are people out there who will go once and do that wait and not go back and they get sicker or they perhaps pass.

DM: Monday, we'll go to the front lines of Canada's health care system, the hospital emergency room. Many are stretched to the limit. We'll hear what that looks like and some ideas of how to treat the problem. That's next week with host Nahlah Ayed. And that is it for today's programme. Been good to be with you this week. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Canadian record producer Daniel Lanois, known for his influential collaborations with the likes of Brian Eno, U2, Emmylou Harris and Bob Dylan. He's going to join Tom Power for a career spanning interview to mark the occasion of the release of his solo album, Heavy Sun. I'm Duncan McCue. Have a great weekend, everybody. Jimmy Gwich. Thanks for listening to The Current.

Friday June 24, 2022 Full Transcript

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