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The Current Transcript for June 22, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's frankly a bit of a surprise that the first drug proven to save lives with COVID-19 is not some shiny high tech experimental treatment. It's an old cheap as chips, steroids.

MATT GALLOWAY: As the frantic search for a vaccine for COVID-19 continues, some researchers are saying that a more immediate treatment is our best option for getting out of lockdown sooner rather than later. In 30 minutes, a look at the options in front of us and whether mandatory mask rules might be the easiest option of all. And later, summer's here. Big plans for your vacation? No? Well, you know, what they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I think a lot of our small anxieties at the start about restaurants, availability of food, washrooms, all those things, I think they're all pretty much gone.

MG: With air travel still largely out of the picture, why Canadians are increasingly hitching up the RV in these pandemic times to see their own country. We'll start though with one of the saddest elements of this pandemic, the appalling conditions revealed in some long term care homes and why the families of those who died worry they could be denied justice. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

Her father died of COVID-19 in a long-term care home. Now she’s fighting for accountability any way she can

Guests: Cathy Parkes, Donna Duncan, Lorian Hardcastle

MG: It's being called another slap in the face for long term care residents and their families. We already know that four of five people killed by COVID-19 in this country lived in those homes. Now their families are worried that new rules around lawsuits will make it more difficult to hold people accountable for those deaths. In British Columbia, long term care homes have been granted some immunity from legal action. The Ontario government has said it's considering doing something similar. Cathy Parkes lives in Pickering, Ontario. She lost her dad, Paul, to COVID-19 in April. She's now suing his nursing home Orchard Villa, for negligence. Cathy, good morning.

CATHY PARKES: Morning.

MG: I'm sorry for what you've been through.

CATHY PARKES: Thank you.

MG: Your dad moved to Orchard Villa in 2019. Just briefly, what were the circumstances that led to his death?

CATHY PARKES: Yeah, so he was there for just a little over five months. The circumstances that led to his death really were, it was just a combination of family being locked out because had I been able to see him, things would have been much different. He contracted COVID-19. It spread pretty widely throughout that home. Then there was clear evidence from his files, from his physical being, from the limited contact I was having with the home, that he was dehydrated and malnourished. Without, you know, even water suffering through a high fever, high heart rate, COVID-19, he just didn't have a chance.

MG: Do you have concerns about his time in Orchard Villa before the pandemic arrived?

CATHY PARKES: I did. Within one month, we had our first incident report for staff to residents abuse towards my dad.

MG: Which was what?

CATHY PARKES: There was a staff member who was putting him to bed. And just sort of put him on the bed and he couldn't lift his own legs and she wouldn't help him put his legs up on the bed. So he was struggling for about half an hour to get himself into bed. And then when she came back, he asked for some blankets because he was cold and she picked them up and threw them in his face. And that was actually reported right away to the director of care. And there were other things as well. You know, a UTI that was left so long, he ended up with a very serious kidney infection in the hospital for a week. There were times when he wasn't being fed. There was a whole day where he didn't eat. There were times when he wasn't being dressed. So there were constant things happening throughout the five months that he was there and we were just dealing with them one on one.

MG: What is it in that, if you look at the whole picture of of what you've been through that you think constitutes negligence when it comes to the actions of the home?

CATHY PARKES: Well, the fact is that as of April the 13th, when my father was still alive, I was raising red flags. I had been talking to frontline staff in the home. They were telling me there was no staff and no personal protective equipment. I was raising that flag to all levels of government that I could think of, including staff at the home management and nothing was being done. You know, we've had a PSW come forward anonymously who has said, yeah, they weren't being fed and they weren't being hydrated, which that's neglect.

MG: And so when you hear that the Ontario government is looking at making it more difficult to sue long term care homes, what goes through your mind?

CATHY PARKES: It's like a slap in the face. It really is. It's not that we can't still go ahead with our cases, because I certainly am. I've been in discussions with my lawyer. It's just making it one step harder. And to me, it screams of protection for-profit homes, and that's not the way we need to go in this province. We need to end for profit homes.

MG: What is it that you're hoping to accomplish in suing them? You're seeing them for $1.6 million.

CATHY PARKES: Yeah, 1.5. And really, the reason why we went the way we did is we would like the owners to respond individually to each death that happened in that home. And we would like accountability for the way that they were treated for the amount of time that they were left without asking for help, really, for not even informing the family. There were things that went on in there. I should have been notified and never was. So to treat family members like that is unacceptable and I, my family would like an answer for it.

MG: And by suing them, by putting a, I mean, it must be an impossible thing, but putting a dollar figure on that, you think that that will get the response that perhaps other means of accountability wouldn't?

CATHY PARKES: That was a hard issue is getting over the thought of putting a dollar value on it because there is no dollar value that you could put on my father's life. But I do realize that in dealing with all of this, it's a combination of government, media and lawsuits. Those three things I think will affect change. And so it's not really about the dollar value because, you know, 1.5 doesn't seem like that much. It's not really going to hurt much of anything, but when you combine that, there's 25 families doing the same then you're looking at some real accountability from Southbridge. The only thing they seem to understand is money. And so that's how we'll talk to them.

MG: The premier's office told reporters last week that the cabinet is considering granting immunity from some lawsuits, but it's still unclear who would actually be covered by this. We asked to speak with the premier. We asked to speak with his attorney general. We have to speak with the administer of long term care. They all turned down our requests for interviews. But Premier Ford was asked last week about accountability in long term care homes. This is what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Let me be very, very clear. I'm not supporting bad actors. And not only that, I'm not even supporting bad actors. I'm holding these people accountable. When we get through this whole process and find out exactly what happened in these homes, there's going to be accountability.

MG: Cathy Parkes, does that offer you any reassurance?

CATHY PARKES: No, because the problem is who gets to decide who the bad actors are? It sounds to me like he gets to decide who the bad actors are, and we're now having a crossover of government into litigation. And those things don't need we don't need anyone deciding who the bad actors are for it. That's what our cases will do. That's what they'll show. So I think that it's overstepping the bounds. The trust between the families who have lost loved ones and the government has been broken.

MG: Cathy Parkes, I appreciate speaking with you this morning. Thank you very much.

CATHY PARKES: Thank you.

MG: Cathy Parkes lost her father, Paul Parkes, to COVID-19 in April. She's now suing the home where he lived his final days. We reached her in Pickering, Ontario. None of these claims have been tested in court. And we did reach out to Orchard Villa for a response to Ms. Parke's allegations. We didn't hear back. The company told our colleagues at Marketplace that it can't comment on individual matters for privacy reasons, but that it did reach out to health partners partners and the government, "early and often and all assistance provided was welcomed." While the families and residents may not support these proposed liability shields, the people running long term care homes do. Donna Duncan is CEO of the Ontario Long-Term Care Association and she's in Toronto. Donna, good morning.

DONNA DUNCAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What kind of protection from liability do you think your members should be entitled to?

DONNA DUNCAN: So Matt, we represent the majority of long term care homes in the province of Ontario. There are 626 and there is a mix, as we know, of for profit, but also non-profit and municipal homes as well. And we're looking at what precedent something is set in other jurisdictions. And our priority, quite honestly, is not, we are not advocating for universal amnesty. We stand behind the premier's words in ensuring that there is accountability, that there is due process and that families who could experience losses have access to justice through the court system.

MG: And so in that, what sort of liability do you think your members should be shielded from?

DONNA DUNCAN: So what we're advocating for is is actually a mechanism to ensure that that homes can continue to be insured. All home insurance is dealt with on it. Unfortunately, on a global global platform and we're we're already seen in Ontario where some non-profit homes have lost their insurance and have lost their insurance for their their volunteer boards as a result of the pandemic and the new policies that that insurers are taking. So that's why our priority is how do we make sure that we can protect and stabilise the majority of homes in the province and the majority of homes? Actually, we're outbreak free, thankfully, and that's why they didn't have one one incident. There's an absolute tragic losses in other homes. We know that and we know that there has to be due process and justice and allow those those justice proceedings to take place.

MG: Why should the insurance be the family's concern?

DONNA DUNCAN: Our priority, quite honestly, is making sure that we are able to have homes that can continue to operate and provide good care, and good solid care, across the province. Insurance is, for us as operators, it's unfortunately one of those things that we need to make sure that that we can continue to have access to in order to operate, in order to renew, in order to to do things better and to make sure that this never happens again.

MG: If the insurers won't cover you, though, or the costs are too high to make the business viable, isn't that a sign that the homes need to change how they operate rather than change the liability rules?

DONNA DUNCAN: It's not a it, unfortunately, we're talking about a technical technicality in terms of a broader insurance. It's like, you can't drive a car if you don't have insurance. We have 626 homes in the province of Ontario. We need to stabilize our our homes. We know that a majority of the homes had absolutely outbreaks. We need to make sure that they can continue to operate, that our non-profit homes can continue out of good governance.

MG: Cathy Parkes says that this screams of protection for for-profit homes, that this is going to shield bad actors. What would you say to her about that?

DONNA DUNCAN: No one's advocating for that at all. Not at all. Our priority is how do we make things safer? How do we make things better? We know that at the beginning of this, our sector was facing a perfect storm. Horrible buildings, you know 1970 standards, critical staffing shortages. We have to find a way to come together to redefine what Long-Term Care looks like in this province absolutely. We need to make sure that we have better medical oversight on our campuses. We need to make sure that we can have full time infection prevention and control. We need to do short term retrofits right now and we need to rebuild.

MG: And those are all very important, but you've heard from people like Cathy who are looking for accountability. And she says that, yes, there were extenuating circumstances during COVID, but she laid out this scenario before this pandemic arrived. These families want accountability. And in a for-profit scenario, that means hitting people often in the pocketbook. Why should those family members be denied that option?

DONNA DUNCAN: Family members should not be denied that option. Matt, we're not advocating for that at all. We believe in due process. We believe in justice. This has been such a tragic circumstance for for so many families like Cathy's. They should have access to to to due process and to the justice system. We are not advocating that anybody should get anything less than that. And we are advocating that where there's been abuse or neglect, there should be accountability. Zero tolerance for any abuse or neglect. We have to do better. We have to work with the government to make sure that our processes are better, that we we have far more robust care, far more robust and actually modernised systems of care, better partnerships with our hospitals and we need to look at how we can better engage our families as well quite honestly. We haev a lot of work to do.

MG: What would accountability finally look like from your perspective then? You've heard what Cathy wants and one of the things is $1.5 million in some ways to to hold somebody to account. So what would accountability look like from your perspective?

DONNA DUNCAN: So in our minds, the government has announced that there's going to be a review or commission. We want to participate that fully. We want to understand what went right, what went wrong. We want to make sure that in parallel with that, those families who who have filed claims go through due process and that they have had their day and that the court system and the justice system unfold as it should for anybody who wishes to make a claim. Nobody should be denied that at all. Absolutely not.

MG: But you don't believe that raising the bar and making families have to prove in legal terms gross negligence, that doesn't create a further barrier to that accountability?

DONNA DUNCAN: It's so, so in terms of I think you're talking about that piece of legislation that the government's brought in. We haven't been advocating for that. We've just been advocating for due process. I haven't spoken to the attorney general. That is, we're unaware of that legislation before it was proposed. We just want to make sure that our families have access to justice, that there is due process, and that right now we're able to stabilize the sector and make the improvements and enhancements today as we prepare for a second wave. We have to make sure that this never happens again and that no family goes through what Cathy and her family have been through.

MG: Donna Duncan, it's great to hear from you again on this. I appreciate it. Thank you.

DONNA DUNCAN: Thanks, Matt. Be well.

MG: And you. Donna Duncan is the CEO of the Ontario Long Term Care Association. We reached her in Toronto. Ontario isn't alone in dealing with these issues in long term care. Lawsuits are also springing up in Alberta and Quebec. Lorian Hardcastle is an assistant professor in the Faculty of Law with the Cumming School of Medicine at the University of Calgary. Lorian, good morning.

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Good morning.

MG: What did you make of what Donna Duncan had to say when it comes to granting immunity for long term care homes?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I think we have a bit of a different view from her. I do find the proposal to grant immunity potentially concerning. And I think that the kind of accountability the families are seeking and the kind of accountability that Premier Ford has proposed are two different things. I think that an inquiry that's driven by the government and generates recommendations that the government may or may not implement, which will likely all be recommendations that they've heard before, is very different than the families being able to to drive the litigation and seek their own answers and ensure that there are specific cases receive consideration. I think those are two different things.

MG: How easy is it to sue and win for negligence causing death?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: It's fairly difficult. I mean, you mean of course, it depends on the circumstances. It is airly difficult to sue often times in health care. Patients have had difficulty suing doctors and hospitals and those sorts of things. I think in this case, perhaps there's there's a bit more clear cut deviations from what we would consider to be reasonable care than we see in other kinds of cases, but certainly it'll be an uphill battle for these plaintiffs.

MG: Do you share the concern that Donna has, that there are a number of homes that have been identified in terms of appalling conditions within them, but there are a number of homes that do really great work as well, and that there is a concern here that you could jeopardise the entire sector if you allow these sorts of lawsuits to move forward based on those individual homes that did not do well during this pandemic.

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: And I don't share that concern because I think that for the homes that did a good job managing the pandemic, well, for all of the homes that had no cases whatsoever, they they don't face the threat of liability here for the homes that did have cases but managed them reasonably. Then they then they wouldn't be held liable. The standard in negligence is one of reasonableness. It's not one of perfection. So just because people in your facility contracted Cauvin or just because it was spread within your facility doesn't automatically mean that you would be held liable. You have to have managed that that that spread unreasonably.

MG: What's happening, British Columbia has moved ahead on this. Right? So we're talking a little bit about Ontario, but what's happening in B.C. that would give us some sense as to where this might go?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, B.C. isn't much further ahead in all of this than Ontario is. They have moved forward with this, but it hasn't that immunity hasn't been around long enough to determine whether or not there were homes that people would have sued or if people will sue anyway. Because, of course, even with these immunity protections in place, you can still sue to argue, for example, that there was bad faith or gross negligence, and so it isn't really yet clear what will happen in B.C.

MG: But that's a high bar, right? To be able to prove gross negligence or bad faith?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Yeah, it is. It is a high bar. And so many of the potential lawsuits could be, wouldn't go ahead as a result of this immunity.

MG: Is your sense that the long term care sector has been lobbying for these sorts of protections?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: I have certainly heard rumblings of that in Ontario that they have been lobbying for this. I think in B.C. their immunity provision is is more of a blanket provision, again, for essential service provision. And so I'm not sure if there was the same amount of lobbying in Ontario, given that it seems to really be focussed around long term care and less focussed around other kinds of essential services. There certainly is is discussion around the fact that that there seems to be the product of lobbying largely from the for-profit home.

MG: You heard Cathy there talk about needing accountability and wanting accountability, but needing it sort of in, you know, the process of moving forward in this. If civil litigation isn't an option, how do those families get accountability?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: And I think that's very difficult for them. I think that, you know, the premier has said that they're going to do an enquiry and they're going to look into these things. But I think that's a tough pill for families to swallow because there have been inquiries into issues and long term care before. Provincial auditor generals have have opined on problems in long term care before. There's a significant body of academic literature making recommendations about how we need to reform long term care. And so we already have information on the problems in the sector and and some of the things we need to do to fix it. But none of that seems to have really catalysed the government to take action. And so I can see why the families would feel that this is just going to be another enquiry, another set of recommendations and that that isn't going to create significant systemic changes here.

MG: And in just the last few seconds that we have, if, as Cathy says, you're able to to hit those bad actors in the wallet, what do you accomplish in doing that?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I think it makes them stand up and take notice. I think that it potentially deters not only the home that made to pay those damages, but also potentially other facilities take notice of those damages smf implement similar kinds of changes.

MG: Lorian, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Thank you for having me.

MG: Lorian Hardcastle, an assistant professor in the faculty of law with the Cumming School of Medicine at the University of Calgary. Your thoughts on this would be welcome, whether it's around shielding that sector from munity or how you search for accountability. And if you're a family member who has been through this, we'd love to hear what you are doing to try and find accountability. You can reach us on the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. The CBC News is next. And then how do we get out of this pandemic? People are searching for a vaccine, but there may be more immediate treatments that are available as well. We'll explore them and talk about rules around wearing masks coming up. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music]

Should Canada make wearing masks mandatory?

Guests: Jennifer Kwan

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, new hope for a viable treatment for COVID-19. But first, to be or not to be wearing a mask? That is the question and the answer, apparently in Guelph, Ontario, is clear.

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It was observationally apparent that physical distancing fatigue had set in and our use was not as high, especially in areas where physical distancing is difficult to practise within stores. That's what we would like. So with that in mind and in order to protect the safety of the population, the health and well-being of both the staff who work in these areas and customers who go into them, it was our decision to move to a mandatory mask policy.

MG: The Guelph area in southern Ontario is amongst the first jurisdictions in this country to make face masks in certain public places mandatory. The Montreal suburb of Cote-St-Luc and Windsor-Essex in Ontario are also telling people to cover up. Some cities are enforcing masks on public transit, but a group of health professionals calling themselves Masks 4 Canada believes this spotty approach is not enough. And they have written an open letter to public health and political officials asking for widespread mandatory mask rules. Dr. Jennifer Kwan is a family doctor in Burlington, Ontario, and part of Masks 4 Canada. Doctor, good morning.

JENNIFER KWAN: Good morning.

MG: How urgently do we need to think about mandatory mask rules in this country?

JENNIFER KWAN: Well, it seems like across Canada, things are opening up and the weather is getting really nice, so people are starting to go out and enjoy the summer, which is great. But we want the reopening to be safe and we think that masks are really a key factor in ensuring that this is a safe reopening.

MG: You heard that little clip there in which the guest was talking about physical distancing fatigue. Is that what you're seeing? That people have been doing this long enough and they're now getting lax about it and that creates added urgency as well?

JENNIFER KWAN: Definitely, because as restrictions are being lifted, people are expecting, you know, things are going back to normal, but unfortunately, the virus is still around. There's so many cases every day and we have to be very cautious to avoid any second waves or recurrent outbreaks.

MG: And so, in your perspective, what would an ideal mandatory mask rule look like? Where would we need to wear masks?

JENNIFER KWAN: So we don't want masks, you know, for everybody everywhere, but we want it to be mandatory in high risk settings. So that would be our acronym ACT. So A would be all indoor spaces outside of the home, C is crowds where you cannot distance from others and P would be public transportation, transit.

MG: All indoor spaces outside of the home?

JENNIFER KWAN: So that would be schools, businesses, stores, shops, things like that. But of course, there is exclusions for anyone who cannot wear a mask due to medical conditions or young children. So anyone who cannot wear a mask, we're not saying you have to wear one, but anyone who can, we strongly think that we should they should be wearing it in order to protect one another.

MG: And you think that these rules should be standard all across the country?

JENNIFER KWAN: Well, it should be considered by either the provincial or federal level, but they should be setting consistent guidelines so that it will help guide individual health units to mandate or not based on what is no cases or transmission. It helps ensure consistency because, as you mentioned, some areas have the rules. Now some areas don't. So we really need strong leadership for this.

MG: This has been the subject, as you know, of great debate here on the programme and elsewhere. We've been talking a lot about masks, in part because there's been a lot of confusion about how well masks can prevent the spread of COVID-19. What does the science tell us? I mean, and is the science conclusive yet?

JENNIFER KWAN: So we know from previous studies that master effective in reducing our risk for other respiratory viruses and there's been so many new studies as more specific, looking into cough masks for COVID-19 So it's still ongoing research, but the science is getting more and more clear that masks are effective, especially as a form of source control. So if I'm wearing a mask and you're wearing a mask and a catches the droplets around our individual mouth and prevents us from infecting each other, especially if we are asymptomatic carriers of COVID-19. So masks are quite effective and the modelling is showing that if 80 percent of people can wear a mask, it can really reduce virus transmission to the point where, you know, it's control that we're not going to have outbreaks anymore.

MG: How useful is it, given that to make wearing things mandatory as opposed to we recommend you wear a mask or we encourage you to wear a mask?

JENNIFER KWAN: Well, currently, it is generally recommended by many people. I think the latest polls showing me half, 50 percent of Canadians or so are wearing masks. So that's not really enough. Getting to the 80 percent that is needed. So it is very concerning as we reopen, if we don't have enough masking that, things can get worse again. So it recommends is not enough. Like me know, we have a public education campaign strongly encourage people to wear it, but it did find nothing. We can't be waiting until there is more people dying before we implement these measures.

MG: We know that and you've addressed this in some ways that wearing a mask will be harder for some people with asthma or certain disabilities. But there are also concerns that black and indigenous men in particular may face increased racism and discrimination if they wear a mask. How do you address those concerns in the larger conversation that you're having?

JENNIFER KWAN: Definitely. It's a good point you brought up. So mandating masks also helps make them more normalised so they become kind of, you know, everyone's wearing one. So anyone who is wearing one is less likely to stand out. It just becomes part of what everyone else is doing. So hopefully that helps reduce discrimination against certain groups for wearing a mask. There's also been discrimination against groups for wearing a mask when everyone else isn't my kind of work both ways. So we really have to avoid masks shaming as well and avoid discrimination against people, for wearing a mask or not wearing a mask.

MG: How do you go about enforcing something like this? There have been concerns from some some small business owners that they end up being the mask police and that it puts them in a tricky position if somebody wants to come into their shop. And you say you need to wear a mask and they say, I don't want to wear a mask, what happens? They get turned around or they come in or there could be a confrontation. So how do you go about enforcing something like this?

JENNIFER KWAN: Yeah, so I certainly applaud some businesses who have protected the health of their staff and customers by implementing mask policy. And a lot of them have offered personal shopper is or a kerbside pickup or other ways to help, you know, support customers who cannot wear a mask. Having a provincial wide mandate or federal mandate for specific situations also helps reduce pressure on the individual business owners, because if it's consistent across the board, then people are less likely to blame the individual business. So we also don't recommend any fines or criminal penalties because that can target more vulnerable groups. We really want this to be, you know, a educational experience to help Canadians understand that wearing a mask is really protective for both their health and the economy.

MG: What do you say to people who believe this is a matter of personal choice and think the government is overstepping?

JENNIFER KWAN: Well, there are a lot of things, you know, personal choice is very important. It's also important to understand that we are helping one another as Canadians to return to like a normal society. So it's a personal choice whether you wear a mask or not. But if you know you're in a high risk setting where you may be infecting others, then your choice is also affecting other people's health. So if you're riding the subway and you're not wearing a mask, then you know your choice any potentially harm others. So it's very important that, you know, you care about one another and demonstrate altruism. You know, just make sure it's not just about personal choice, but also for caring about one another.

MG: Just before I let you go, people are starting. I mean, we're just into the summer, but people are already thinking about fall and what school schools going to look like. Do you think that masks should be mandatory when school resumes and kids are back in the classroom?

JENNIFER KWAN: So it depends on the age of the child. You know, we're not asking very young children to be wearing. But certainly kids can learn to wear a mask as they can learn to tie shoelaces or they can learn algebra so they can be taught to wear a mask. And, you know, the masks should be made available to children in order to ensure protection in the school. For educators, face shield can be a really great option because it helps with showing the children facial expressions and it helps with teaching. So there's a lot of flexible options, but it's also important to go back to school safely.

MG: Doctor, good to speak with you about this. We will turn it over to our listeners for further debate. In the meantime, thanks.

JENNIFER KWAN: OK, great. Take care.

MG: And you. Dr. Jennifer Kwan, family physician in Burlington, Ontario. And she's with the group Masks 4 Canada. It's advocating for mandatory face masks in those areas, as she said. And particularly if you are in areas where it's difficult to physically distance, you're riding transit, you might be at the office or when you're shopping. What do you make of this? How would you feel about rules making it mandatory for you to wear a mask in public places? Do you already wear one? Maybe you don't wear one. If you don't, why don't you wear a mask? And do you think that this is a good option to look at standardized rules across this country when it comes to wearing those masks? You can reach us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, find us or Facebook or email us from the website. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. This is indeed.

Treating COVID-19: The drugs researchers say are promising and which ones aren’t

Guests: Rob Fowler, Matthias Gotte

MG: The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So the two major ways that we're thinking about treating Cauvin disease are first with antivirals and second with anti inflammatories.

VOICE 2: Mayo has taken the lead on a national plasma test to determine whether this therapy can be used.

VOICE 3: President Trump just making that announcement in the Oval Office, where he is meeting with the CEO of Gillead and just told the reporting pool that he has approved the use of Remdesivir for emergency use.

MG: Now, you could wear a mask. That's one way of slowing down the spread of COVID-19, but there are some treatments for COVID-19 that are showing promise as well. Others, not so much. Three months into a pandemic, none have been approved for use in Canada outside of clinical trials, but researchers are working on a range of possible treatments. Dr. Rob Fowler is a critical care physician, chief of the Tory Trauma Program at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre in Toronto and he's one of the principal Canadian investigators for the COVID-19 Solidarity Trial. Doctor, good morning.

ROB FOWLER: Hi, good morning, Matt.

MG: What is a solidarity trial?

ROB FOWLER: Solidarity trial is a WHO initiative that has gathered about 60 countries so far together to test a range of medications that are potentially effective against COVID-19.

MG: And what have you learnt thus far?

ROB FOWLER: Thus far with the solidarity trial and another large trial in the United Kingdom called Recovery, we've learnt a couple of things. One thing that we've learnt is that one of the medications that received a lot of media coverage in the beginnings of the outbreak called hydroxy chloroquine, we've been able to learn that frankly, it doesn't work for COVID. And I think that that's very helpful because it allows people, number one, not to prescribe a medication for COVID that's ineffective and can focus people's energies on other other places. And the second thing that we have learned is that a widely available anti-inflammatory medication called dexamethasone that we sometimes used for patients that have severe lung injury, often because of infection and, you know, in ICUs seems to be quite effective for the sickest of patients with COVID-19. And that's just, you know, just the last last couple of weeks known to people around the world. And it's already, I would say, starting to change treatment certainly in Toronto and the rest of Canada and in probably around the world over the next week.

MG: Why is it important to test existing drugs? Drugs that are already out there. When this started, and it seems like it was years ago, but it really was just months ago, there was a lot of excitement early on in the pandemic that the treatment in some ways could be out there waiting for us. Tell me a little bit more about about what you see as the potential there.

ROB FOWLER: Well, this is a new a new illness, of course, and it shares similarities to ones that we have treated and have seen before. So SARS Coronavirus, for instance, Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome coronavirus that's been circulating for years. And so we're a bit ahead of the game with respect to studying some medications for other coronavirus diseases. And there are a number of other medications that work for other viral infections, whether it be flu or or or Ebola or things. That's some medications that are effective in those conditions may work here. And when you're starting from scratch, it's probably the most efficient. And oftentimes the only thing to do is to test medications that you have access to.

MG: And is this a way in some ways to buy us time before a vaccine is developed, if a vaccine is developed?

ROB FOWLER: Yes, it's certainly one of the ways when we focus on treating people to Tobias some time. It, you know, is one of the range of medications, I would say the anti inflammatory medications, direct antiviral medications, antibodies that may be transfused from people who've recovered or antibodies that may be generated in the lab directed specifically against coronavirus. All of these things are are different, different tracks that people are are following to try to come up with a range of medications that may work. And luckily, so far, we've seen even in the first few months of the outbreak from some really conclusive findings about what does and doesn't work.

MG: How would you characterize the search? I mean, in the search for a vaccine, it feels like everybody's working all at the same time. Is that kind of the same the same attitude to the same approach here?

ROB FOWLER: Yeah, I would say very much the same approach in that across the country, we have upwards of 50 hospitals that are participating in this solidarity trial that's being worked at a Sunnybrook in Toronto and helped by a principal investigator in UBC. And every patient that comes into the hospital, we're making sure that we speak to them and or their family, depending on how sick they are, to give them the opportunity to participate in a trial where there may be medications that are effective. And in this case, we've seen that some of the medications that we've been testing are effective.

MG: One of the ones that people are talking about a lot is Remdisivir. It was used to fight Ebola. It's been approved to treat COVID-19 in some countries. Matthias Gotte has been studying how it works. He's a professor of medical microbiology and immunology at the University of Alberta. Matthias, good morning to you.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You've been looking into the effectiveness of Remdesivir to treat COVID-19. Where are you at in that process.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: So in our lab, we specialise on the biochemical aspects of of drugs, antiviral drugs like Remdesivir and we looked at the mechanism of action in the test tube if you wish. So we tried to understand how it works and we've shown that it, as predicted it attacks and targets the engine of the virus. And if it targets the engine successfully, the virus cannot replicate and cannot spread. So this work is published and the details also show that it is quite effective against its target, which was an important finding.

MG: That research has led the drug to be approved in countries like Japan and the United States for COVID-19. Why not here in Canada?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: So, first of all, I would say there is the first component for for these entire approval processes, the preclinical data. There's a lot of preclinical data on Remdesivir, as we heard before. It was tested in other conditions like Ebola, for instance. And then we had a ton of animal data, cell culture data, biochemical data, and that justified the clinical trials and ultimately a randomised clinical trial from the NIH or the NIAAD, basically revealed compelling data that the Remdesivir is compared with a placebo arm. Remdesivir showed a reduction in the time of recovery of patients from fifteen to eleven days. So that was the compelling result. And then this ultimately is the basis or was the basis for the emergency use authorization in the U.S. and I assume also in other countries. Here in Canada, it's a good question why it is not not yet approved. I assume if I look at the Canadian Agency for Drug and Technology in Health, they update on this topic they advise Health Canada in the update on this topic periodically and they are looking for for more data, for more trial data. And the one study that I just cited, it is published already, but it's a preliminary report. And my understanding is they would like to see the entire report, the full study.

MG: Rob, you mentioned the drug dexamethasone and there was research in the UK that suggested a breakthrough last week. What's going on there?

ROB FOWLER: Yes. So that that's a large study in the U.K. It's a really good example for Canada to look to or really all of the hospitals within the NHS have gotten together to to to run a clinical trial with patients coming into hospital with COVID-19 and looking at thousands of patients very clearly showing that amongst patients that require oxygen or more respiratory support, use of dexamethasone reduces mortality substantially treating upwards of, you know, fewer than 10 patients in order to save one life. And that's a very large effect size when you consider many medications out there in the market for other conditions.

MG: We're throwing a lot around a lot of names here, Matthias. But there's this another drug, an antiviral drug, Favipiravir, that has been tested here in Toronto, looking at particularly outbreaks in nursing homes. Is the promise there?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: So Favipiravir is in a sense similar to him as it targets also the engine of the virus. That is the thought. However, if we are looking at preclinical data, in other words, in cell cultures, so that allows us to measure the antiviral effect of of off a drug or a compound, the antiviral effect is very weak as compared to Remdesivir. So that is one thing. And if we look directly at the efficiency with which this this compound targeted the engine of the virus, it is also much weaker. So but still, we have to look at the clinical trials ultimately to see whether it works or not, but in terms of the preclinical data, it is not as compelling as Remdesivir was.

MG: What's your sense, Matthias? And we're just a few minutes left. What's your sense as to how close we're getting to have an effective treatment for COVID-19 in this country?

MATTHIAS GOTTE: I'm actually very optimistic also about what Rob just mentioned, that we have now an anti-inflammatory and we do have an antiviral. So if you wish, these are two different classes of drugs that allow us to treat patients. And these are two, both drugs Remdesivir and the other drug, we are, there's a proof of principle shown that these these drugs can work and we can now go ahead and try to improve these drugs and eventually able to combine these drugs together. So I think this is quite a progress that has been made and we can certainly build on this. So I'm optimistic in that regard.

MG: Rob, do you share that that optimism that Matthias has?

ROB FOWLER: Yeah, I do share that optimism. And I think just a few months into this outbreak, we've learnt so much. And there's still many lines that will treatment and prevention with vaccine that are yet to come. I think, you know, one of the things that I think probably people might not realise or appreciate is how instrumental much of Canada has been in describing and coming up with both vaccines and treatments for many of these sort of recent viral outbreaks, whether it be SARS or H1N1, MERS or now COVID, and, you know, through help with the IHR, the National Microlab and Public Health Agency of Canada, there's been such a lot of good work that's informed the global response to this outbreak that has come from Canada.

MG: I guess just in the last minute or so, we have the concern from some people, Rob, is that the momentum is happening, you know, it's it's there now, but what happens if, you know, the number of cases or people with severe illness begins to wind down, will that momentum disappear before we get to the finish line?

ROB FOWLER: I think we'll see probably variability around the world. And as we're seeing right now, even with cases dropping a bit in Canada, luckily, and I think through the good work of Public Health, we're seeing an incredible number of cases pop up per day around the world and you can look to many countries. So I think that on the global scene, we will have lots of momentum, unfortunately, for a long time.

MG: This is a good news story for Canadian research then, Rob?

ROB FOWLER: I think so. And I think it's something that if we look at many of the I would say, you know, many of the treatments, many of the preventative elements of of outbreaks, we can look back to a lot of great work that's happened in Canada.

MG: Excellent. We will follow your work along. In the meantime, gentlemen, good to speak with you this morning. Thank you.

ROB FOWLER: Thanks so much.

MATTHIAS GOTTE: Thanks for having me.

MG: Dr. Rob Fowler is a critical care physician at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre in Toronto. Matthias Gotte is a professor of medical microbiology and immunology at the University of Alberta. Talking about work that's happening in this country to try and find treatments, not a vaccine, but treatments for COVID-19. Coming up in our next half hour, road trip season is upon us. Are you ready to test your luck during a pandemic? Summer is here and people are stir crazy wanting to perhaps hit the road. We will hear from some road warriors, new and experienced. Coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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National affairs panel discusses Conservative leadership race

Guests: Brian Crook, Rob Minarchi

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Summer is here, and that means it's vacation time, but with travel still being a bit iffy thanks to this pandemic, lots of people are rethinking their plans. Early on, Lisa McMeans from Toronto realized that she may need to adapt.

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VOICE: My husband are planning a trip with a group of friends. We were going to go to Cape Breton Island and do a seven day biking trips. Now, obviously, when that pandemic started, we started to wonder what would happen. And then sometime, I think probably in May, we started to realise that it wasn't going to happen. It seems like Nova Scotia in particular, we're doing well and interprovincial travel was going to be hard. And so then we decided that we would start looking at some other options.

MG: One other option was something that offered transportation and comfort.

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VOICE: So we decided to look at RV's and then we decided we would just stay in Ontario. And obviously there's tons of amazing things in Ontario that we haven't seen. So some of the group was for sure, OK to be camping. I love to hike and be active, but I really manage my requirements is a bed at night to sleep in. And so the RV sort of seemed to tick that box. So it'll be comfortable and has a shower and a bathroom and those are also things that I was hoping to have.

MG: Turns out that excitement over spending summer in an RV is catching on. Brian Crook rented one for the first time earlier this month. Brian, good morning.

BRIAN CROOK: Morning Matt. How are you?

MG: Well, I'm well. Why did you want to rent an RV?

BRIAN CROOK: In my past really, we've done tent camping before. My wife had suggested that she wants to try it as well. She's done being in the tents, being right on the ground. She says, any more camping, we're definitely going to try an RV. Really one of the other real reasons we were renting it was because we wanted to visit our parents in Quebec City with the COVId things. So it gave us an opportunity to essentially take a house or RV to them, so that we could park it right outside and still maintain our distancing.

MG: How big of a vehicle was this that you ended up renting?

BRIAN CROOK: So this was 37 feet. And I again, I'm completely brand new to RV and we decided just taking initiative to try it out. I drive a Micra, I think it's what, five, six feet. Yeah, I know.

MG: So do you need special skills to drive a 30 some foot thing?

BRIAN CROOK: Well, it still require G licence. So it's a lot bigger, obviously, than my Micra, almost seven times. 37 feet I think was the total size of it. But they come so well equipped. There's video cameras, there's really, really big mirrors. You're high up again. Compared to my Micra, I'm almost under cars but. But being so high up is almost like a whole new view, even travelling to Quebec City. We often have done it many times, but just being up that extra four or five feet you're seeing over the bridges, you're seeing a whole bunch different things that you may not have been able to see before.

MG: What was the most difficult part of driving something that big?

BRIAN CROOK: Backing up. I'm not used to, again, that long, I compare it to, I don't know if any of your listeners have been on a cruise, but when you see cruise ship coming up to dock, captains really got a good idea what's going on and there's three or four people out there doing the same thing. So I had to back it into my in-laws driveway. Luckily, there my brother in law came out and escorted us in. But boy, oh, boy, she was slow and steady. Little place up in stone and we went and visited. I think population might 600, 700, maybe a bit more now. But I think 30 or 40 people when they saw this thing coming into the town, good couple of dozen of them sat there and watched me actually try and park this thing. It became like the the event.

MG: A little stress, I would imagine.

BRIAN CROOK: Yeah. But it worked out really well. Two tries. One time was I was just a bit worried about the steps, so I backed it out on purpose. But the balance of it went in really with these moves. If you use your spotter and have your mirrors, I think that's the key to it.

MG: You mentioned as you were driving that you were, you saw things differently. Tell me more about that and what it was like travelling in this big RV compared to in a car or in a bus or flying or anything like that.

BRIAN CROOK: Yeah, yeah. Just the experience itself is fun. It was really just exciting to have an opportunity to drive one. I said we'd never done it before. Going to pick it up. Having the person walk us through kind of all the functionality of the RV itself was great. And then the driving experience, big, big steering wheel. And then just because you elevated really, really large windows. My God, six feet by probably four feet windows on the front with big windows on the side as well. So we saw everything that was coming. They're definitely not the fastest vehicles because, you know, you want to take your time. That's the purpose of going so slow and steady. I think we were averaging around 85 to 95 kilometres an hour, which was just more than us.

MG: But you didn't mind?

BRIAN CROOK: No, not at all. Because there's just so many things that you haven't seen before. When you're going as I said, going over the bridges and looking down. Just, it's a little different, a little different view.

MG: Will you do this again?

BRIAN CROOK: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MG: Really?

BRIAN CROOK: Yeah. And I recommend it to anybody else as well. You've got to try it once. I'm middle aged. As I said my wife said she's not tent camping anymore. So we needed to have a little bit more luxury.

MG: No more sleeping on the ground.

BRIAN CROOK: No more sleeping on the ground. And then of course, the bathroom. Right? So the you get that full size bathroom. You get the slide outs. It was just, it was just in awe. Awe truly experience. It gives you so, so, so much more than just regular camping. You got to try it once.

MG: As long as you can manage the backing up, you're fine.

BRIAN CROOK: Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

MG: Brian, good to talk to you. Thank you.

BRIAN CROOK: Have a great day.

MG: And you. Brian Crook lives in Ottawa.RV sellers say they're seeing a surge of people looking into the motor home lifestyle given the pandemic situation that we find ourselves in and some of the restrictions around travel. Rob Minarchi is director of sales for Arrkann Trailer and RV in Edmonton. Longtime RVer himself. Rob, good morning to you.

ROB MINARCHI: Good morning.

MG: How much of a rise in interest are you seeing at your store, people now checking out RV's that perhaps would not have given you a second look?

ROB MINARCHI: Oh, yeah, absolutely. A lot of people just like Brian, who would never actually tried it before or kind of coming out and trying it for the first time and his story of visiting family members and using it as a place to isolate is something that we've heard multiple times and in a lot of people that have had other travel plans cancelled, decided to allocate so that money towards an RV that they can use for a while.

MG: How much do these things cost?

ROB MINARCHI: Well, you know, at our dealership, we sell everything from a tent trailer right up to a motor home. So the tent trailers can start around, you know, a brand new one, maybe $10,000. We do sell lots of used ones. And the used market or preowned market has been extremely robust as well. And, you know, you can pick something up for 5000ish. And a lot of people finance and the banks here are working with us and you can get them down to about 100 dollars a month. It's pretty incredible. They're very affordable. That's the entry level. I mean, a lot of these, though, aren't the old, you know, pop up van campers that we saw when we were growing up. These are luxury beasts, right?

ROB MINARCHI: Yep. Yep. There's a big range. You know what Brian would've been, he would've had a motorhome. So he would have something with the engine built in. But if you have a vehicle that's big enough, most of what are sold are actually trailers that you tow around.

MG: Like a fifth wheel?

ROB MINARCHI: Fifth wheel or travel trailer. So they have, we have the hitch right off the back of the truck or the SUV or even a minivan. And they have a little you know, you have a hitch on with a little ball and you actually hook up your trailer to the back of that and that's actually what's most popular right now. You know, depending on what kind of vehicle you have will determine what type of trailer you can tell. But a lot of the trailers have gotten very lightweight. So while his Micra wouldn't have been able to tow very much, you know, a slightly bigger vehicle can control a small trailer and then these small trailers, they might only be 15 feet or 17 feet long. But they'll have everything that he was referring to. They'll have a bathroom in them, they'll have a kitchen. They'll have the bedrooms. And, you know, we have a little 17th foot trailer that has all that, plus it has bunk beds for the kids. So those are really, really popular.

MG: Brian talked about backing this thing up. How, you laugh when I say this, how much of a learning curve is it to try to figure out how to steer this thing into a parking spot?

ROB MINARCHI: That's as soon as he mentioned that, I had a bit of a chuckle. That's like a rite of passage in the RV world. We always joke about, you know, you want to get to the campsite really early or really late so that you don't have the whole group of people watching you back in because the pressure just builds. And we actually even sell a little T-shirt at the dealership that says, you know, sorry for what I said to you when we were backing up the RV, because that is definitely something that comes up. So we recommend people find a parking lot somewhere and practise it a little bit, especially. He was driving a thirty seven foot motorhome, but there are thirty seven foot trailers and shift wheels that are even even more challenging because you have to back him up. There's actually a lot of sites now that are pull through sites as RV's have gotten bigger over the years, there's lots of campsites that just have pull throughs. So part of that is just, you know, reserving it a little bit or really getting one of those. And then on those sites, you literally drive in one side and you drive up the other. You never end up backing it up.

MG: What do you remember about the early trips you went on as a kid in a camper?

ROB MINARCHI: Well, I mean, for us, we had a tent trailer, so it's just a little eight potentially. I have three brothers. And we actually I was at my dad's for Father's Day yesterday, and it was kind of interesting how much we were talking about our camping trips growing up and which which trailer we had. And and his brother had had come over from Italy in 1990. My parents from Italy. And we took him on this huge trip and there was eight of us in the van towing this tent trailer. And I was talking about how we were able to fit enough gear in there to last for a three week trip when now we have a thirty six foot trailer and we are still complaining that there's not enough storage in it. There's. Yeah. Just for me, I mean, it was every summer we went camping and that's that was our vacation. You know, we go a week or two. We live in Edmonton. So we're out here in western Canada and we're you know, we go to Bounce National Park pretty much every year. And then, you know, usually a trip into B.C. and through the mountains. And, yeah, you know, when I flip back through my my sort of book as a kid, you know, all of the all the trips are camping trips, water to National Park, Banff National Park. You know, Jasper National Park. That was just that was just what we did. And we always went with some other family members. Usually it was with one of my mom's aunts and uncles. They would come. They had a little comprised van. And then usually my mom's sister and they had a tent trailer as well. And we plan our trip and and work our way through Alberta and usually British Columbia. So it was pretty awesome.

MG: And so we, just a couple of seconds left. What's one word of advice you'd give to somebody who's interested in hitchin it up?

ROB MINARCHI: Give it a try. If you tried that tent camping, this is you know, RVing is completely different. Just like Brian was saying. You know, you'll be surprised. I didn't think that my wife never camped growing up. She's an engineer downtown Edmonton. This is not her thing and now she's the one that makes us go camping more than me. We went a couple times with our kids, especially if you have kids, you'll not regret it. It will turn into something you do for life.

MG: You sound like a salesman. That's a great pitch. Rob, it's great to talk to you about this. Thank you.

ROB MINARCHI: Yeah. Thanks so much.

MG: Cheers. Robin Minarchi is the director of sales for Arkkann Trailer and RV in Edmonton. You don't need a flush toilet and a queen sized bed on wheels to enjoy the open road. A couple of regular listeners to The Current were kind enough to take us along for their drive.

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[Clip of trip vlog by Barbara Drake-Land]

MG: Thanks to Barbara Drake-Land and her husband Rob Land for recording their thoughts during their four day drive across the country. Are you on the road this summer? Let us know where you're going, what it's like. You could send us a virtual postcard through Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. Go to the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. Send us a proper postcard. Box 500. Station A, Toronto, M5W 1E6. Let The Current know where you are this summer.

Posthumous degrees for U of A students killed in Iran plane crash a reminder of talent lost, says graduate

Guests: Asal Andarzipour

MG: This is The Current from CBC Radio one Matt Galloway. We've been celebrating the graduating class of 2020 on this program. For some, it's bittersweet. A time to celebrate a milestone achievement, but also a time to remember those no longer living to see that day. The University of Alberta was struck particularly hard this past year. 13 people in their community were killed on Ukrainian Airlines Flight 752. And the university is awarding posthumous degrees to five students who died when Iran shot down that passenger plane. Asal Andarzipour knew some of those students. She's president of the University of Alberta's Iranian Students Association and she's graduating with her second Master's degree. This time, a Master of Arts from the University of Alberta's Department of Art and Design. Asal, good morning and congratulations.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Thank you, Matt.

MG: A second Masters degree. That's fantastic.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Yes. I went to school a lot. You know, and I love it. Obviously, means that I love school and I'm actually looking forward to going back to school at some point in a couple years.

MG: It's addictive.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: But not for now. Yeah.

MG: You came to Canada to study from Iran. Tell me a little bit about what life in Canada has been like for you.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Canada has been a country of peace and calm for me because my journey out of Iran as an international incident started five years ago when I moved to the U.S. to work on my first Masters. And, well, you know, political circumstances kept changing and we had President Trump over there and we had the travel ban and I started to notice that I'm going to face a lot of challenges in terms of being able to visit my family when I'm off or having them over. So that's how I decided to come over to Canada because I found it more open and more accepting. So I'm pretty happy here, you know.

MG: It's been a tough year for people in your community. You know, the 13 people, including faculty and students and alumni, were killed on the Ukrainian airlines flight that was shot down in January. What has it been like graduating in the shadow?

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: You are right, be suddenly experienced such a huge loss in a way that we are all just hit by it as well. I would describe it as we are a small community and we are close to each other and a lot of our life stories are similar. So I personally was feeling that I could be on that plane. It was very close to me and at the time I was in a leadership role. So I had to at the same time keep myself together and also be supportive of others and provide service. So it's been challenging, but I grew up a lot. That's what I know.

MG: You grew up a lot. What do you mean?

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Yeah, well, you know, emotionally and in terms of crisis management and also in terms of one thing I learnt was, was actually to stand up for what is right and keep asking questions, because I think the reason that we are a little bit slow in making the world a better place is that we are not asking questions, that we are keeping being silent in difficult situations where we have to stand up and say that this is not right.

MG: The university that you go to, the University of Alberta, awarded posthumous degrees to five of the students that were on that plane. What did that mean to you?

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Remembrance. This is just about the dream that could come true. And, you know, all of the hopes that all of those five people had in their minds and, you know, all the plans that they had. But it's also about the unexpectedness of life and I think it's it's a good lesson to take advantage of the moment while we are here.

MG: You talk about seizing the moment. You're now done with this chapter in your life. You may head back to school in future. But in the meantime, what's next for you?

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Well, first of all, I'm loving to volunteer and help the families of the victims of Flight 752, as they need support. And I am developing my first collective initiative, which is bringing diaspora altogether to break through cultural barriers by telling stories of travelling objects and migration of humans and exchanges of history.

MG: You have a bright future in front of you and it's exciting to think what you'll accomplish.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Thank you.

MG: Congratulations again.

ASAL ANDARZIPOUR: Thank you.

MG: That's Asal Andarzipour who graduated with a Master of Arts from the University of Alberta's Department of Art and Design. Her second Master's degree. If you missed our Class of 2020 ceremonies last week, one for high school grads and one to celebrate post-secondary graduates, I would suggest you have a listen humbly at our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent or visit the Facebook page or Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. It was just nice. The news has been really heavy over the last little while and nice to hear some celebratory good news and stories of people who are going on to achieve great things in this topsy turvy world that we're living in. Again, you can hear the podcast as well and find all of that at cbc.ca/thecurrent. That is The Current for today. Coming up next on your CBC Radio One, it's Q. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Take care and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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June 22, 2020 episode transcript

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