Plans to ban some single-use plastics is a ‘tepid’ step forward, says advocate

Guests: Karen Wirsig, Angela Riley

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DUNCAN MCCUE: A new day in Colombia. For the first time ever, a leftist leader has been elected president. What this election could mean for Latin American politics and the rest of the world in 30 minutes, and that.

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We have endured decades of a toxic culture that is really rooted in dominance and control and highly abusive tactics.

DM: Athletes are speaking up about the toxic culture they say has run rampant through Canadian sport for decades. Now, the federal government says they have a plan to stop any more athletes from getting hurt. That story in an hour. But we begin with the fanfare around a ban on some single use plastics, a ban that many say doesn't go far enough. I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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DM: It's been a long time coming.

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Our strategy is is varied and it tackles different elements. It is about reducing the amount of plastic we we produce and keeping those plastics in the economy. It is about banning certain plastics. And as I said earlier, we we have not closed a door to banning certain other single use plastics. We are starting with these ones because based on the data we have, these are the most harmful.

DM: Canada's Environment Minister, Stephen Guilbeault, outlining the Government's plastics ban yesterday. Straws, Sturt Sticks, cutlery, takeout containers, grocery bags and those things. My Bob's that hold six packs together. These single use plastic items are all on the chopping block in the government's effort to kerb plastic pollution. But with billions of pieces of plastic garbage clogging landfills, littering forests and washing up on shorelines each year, many environmental groups say much more needs to be done. Karen Wirsig is the Plastics Programme Manager at Environmental Defence, a Canadian environmental advocacy organisation, and she joins me here in studio. Karen, good morning.

KAREN WIRSIG: Good morning.

DM: The Federal Government says it wants to halt plastic pollution by 2030. How much will banning these sing these six items? How much is that going to help in achieving that goal?

KAREN WIRSIG: We call this a really necessary first step because without regulation, nothing happens, really. I mean, we've already seen with this regulation just being talked about. Companies are starting to move and phase these kind of items out of their, you know, bags, for example, and straws in many cases phasing these out of their operations. So even talking about it has been helpful. But actually setting the rule down in law is an essential first step. Does it go far enough? We need, you know, to get to 2030. We're going to need to phase out a lot of single use plastics, almost all of them, I would think, too, to avoid plastic waste and eliminate plastic waste. This is the kind of the tepid step the government's taking, but we applaud it because without it, you know.

DM: You heard the minister you were at the announcement yesterday. You heard the minister say they have a varied response. I wonder, other than the six items that are being banned. What else stood out for you in the government's plan?

KAREN WIRSIG: Well, the timeline, you know, we fought hard for a quick time implementation timeline. And in fact, between the draught regulations, which had a very long implementation date, you know, it has sped up. So companies will have to start manufacturing these items in Canada or importing them into Canada by the end of this year. And they'll have to stop selling them or giving them away with, you know, other products like drinks or takeout meals by the end of next year.

DM: But the export is going to be allowed for another three years. Why or why that?

KAREN WIRSIG: Well, the export wasn't even in the original draught regulations. And so this is something we and a lot of Canadians wrote in and said, why would we call these things problematic and harmful garbage here and continue to make them and export them to pollute other countries? And so, you know, to its credit, the government heard that message. I think it's been hearing a lot of messages from industry saying this is how we make money. And so, I guess 2025 is is the compromise date. But I will say we're really glad that there is a date in there at all for exports.

DM: You mentioned that other places are already doing this. I mean, more than 75 jurisdictions in Canada have already banned plastic bags. Other countries are doing this. Rwanda started banning plastic bags back in 2028. So. So why has it taken so long for the federal government to act?

KAREN WIRSIG: Well, this plastic pollution came on the radar, you know, has come on the radar, I guess, in waves since the 1970s. And I think plastic is such a ubiquitous part of our lives, no one really thought, can we get rid of it? Is this possible to get rid of it? But I think what's happened in particular over the last 10 to 15 years is that now everything is made of plastic and there are single use plastics. We never thought we need it. We probably don't need being introduced on the market all the time. So I think it's now we're all dealing with these mounds of plastics in our own garbage pails at home and where we see them washing up on the shores, as you mentioned, we see them in the parks. And so it has it's really struck people yet again. This is a problem.

DM: What do we know about the five that are six that are on the list that the straws and statistics, cutlery? Why are they on the list?

KAREN WIRSIG: The government decided to look at the plastics that were commonly found in litter cleanups and shoreline cleanups that had alternatives, so that if you replace them, it wouldn't put either companies or Canadians in, you know, some kind of a lurch and were very difficult to collect and impossible to recycle. So those were kind of the the main criteria they looked at. And, you know, should there be more items on that list? Absolutely. I mean, we really urge the government to include hot and cold drink cups on that list. So, you know, the take out coffee cups and lids which we find everywhere.

DM: Take out coffee cups.

KAREN WIRSIG: Yeah.

DM: Boy.

KAREN WIRSIG: And of course, you know, let's be clear about the fact that the government also hears a lot from industry and certain industries have a very powerful voice in Ottawa, I would say. And I think, you know, certain retailers in the restaurant industry have had a strong voice in some of this and also the plastics industry itself.

DM: I've got lots more questions for you, but you mentioned shoreline cleanups. And I just want to bring in another guest, if I can, if that's okay. So stay with me, Karen. I want to bring someone else into the conversation. Frontline worker in the fight against pollution, if you will. Angela Riley is the founder of Scotian Shores, an environmental organisation dedicated to cleaning the shorelines of Nova Scotia. In less than two years, Angela and her team of volunteers cleaned up over 90,000 kilograms of garbage off the shorelines of Nova Scotia. Much of it is plastic. Angela, good morning.

ANGELA RILEY: Good morning. How are you doing?

DM: I'm doing well. Can I ask you what motivated you to get involved in something like this?

ANGELA RILEY: So for me, it was during the pandemic, going to the same beach every day with my two young boys and filling our pockets and then moving on to bags on the same beach. It just keeps washing ashore. I felt really depressed and alone and then decided that I needed to do something about it. So it kind of evolved into Scotian Shores Shoreline Cleanup.

DM: What kind of things were you picking up, Angela?

ANGELA RILEY: So I live pretty close to Halifax, which is our big city, so it is a lot of those single use plastics. So we never talked about the beach vessels here, otherwise known as tampon applicators, but that's another one. Straws and a lot of masks and gloves and single use and those hot and cold drink cups that were just talked about. Those are big one on the list, too. If you get out of Halifax at the. Very different story, though. It also had a very different set of plastics. So in Nova Scotia, we're very we've got a huge fishing industry here. So we end up seeing a lot of old stuff from decades past, like rope nets, Styrofoam, and then a lot of I call them UFOs, unidentifiable floating objects. And that's just plastics that have been in the ocean for so long. You can't tell what they are anymore.

DM: And what's it like for you to to see a beach before and after cleanup?

ANGELA RILEY: It's it's always a bit of both emotions super happy because the whole bunch of people have come together to clean it up and look at the big giant pile of garbage that we got out. But then also really sad because it's there. And I know in a week it might be just as messy as when we cleaned it up a week ago.

DM: Angela, Nova Scotia banned plastic bags back in 2020. So. So have you seen changes on the shoreline as a result of that ban?

ANGELA RILEY: I have. And recently I actually went over to New Brunswick and did a little cleanup on my own and could not believe the amount of plastic bags that I was picking out of the river there and compared. I mean, we still find them here in Nova Scotia, but it was like night and day when I actually got to go to another province. And I didn't know that New Brunswick didn't ban the bag yet until I went into the grocery store and they handed me one and it clicked. I was like, Oh, okay, this single use plastic ban, maybe it's got something to it. Good.

DM: Have you seen an impact on on wildlife and ocean life in terms of the plastics? Angela Oh.

ANGELA RILEY: Yes, there's entanglements and stuff. We've seen skunks with their heads stuck in these cups. We get a lot of plastic strapping here from boxes and stuff and that gets wrapped around animals and birds get caught in it. It's is it's pretty sad. And for me, it's also sad because biodiversity loss is a very not good thing. Nowadays, we need all the different animals that we can have.

DM: And I was looking through some of the pictures. I mean, you've got groups of volunteers, I assume, who are just look super happy after picking up garbage for for quite a while. Why are people coming out to help you? What are they telling you?

ANGELA RILEY: There's everybody's got a different reason, some of us is because we want to go out and do something good or go and get some exercise. Some. We have fishers that have fished for many, many decades and have seen what has gone in the ocean and want to see things change. There's a big change of attitude here, and then sometimes people want to come out and bring their kids out like me and show them that us humans do have good hearts and we do want to fight for their future. So going out and picking up garbage out of the ocean is the easy way to do that.

DM: Karen, angela's organisation is part of a wider conservation initiative. It's called the Great Canadian Shoreline Cleanup. It's a partnership between Ocean Wise and WWF Canada. As you just heard, I mean, the volunteers by the thousands are taking part in cleanups right across the country. Can can all of that plastic waste be stopped by 2030? Under the current plan, by the set out by the federal government?

KAREN WIRSIG: No, absolutely not. We need more bands. We need more alternatives. I think for all the packaging, including hot and cold drink cups are probably the most effective solution would be reusable, as widely accessible, widely available and affordable reusable cups that may be organised by the companies themselves where you can take them back anywhere they might be on a deposit. But we need we need to understand that all of these things have a value or they're dangerous. So we either keep them and use them and cherish them until, you know, they break. And then we have to find a useful way to dispose of them and hopefully recycle them. But we can't just keep, you know, pulling things off the shelves, using it for 3 minutes and then throwing it into the ocean.

DM: You you're talking about bans, follow bans. You hear from industry. Sometimes a better waste collection is is the solution here. Recycling is the solution. What do you say to that?

KAREN WIRSIG: It's not it's there is no answer in waste collection recycling. We see. I mean, if waste collection and recycling worked, it would have worked over the last half century or 70 years, really since the rise of plastics. What we the reason that plastics, I think, has risen to the top is unlike any other waste which disappears over time. You know, metals, rust, paper breaks down, food breaks down. Plastics are with us for decades, if not centuries. And even when the plastic. Breakdown. They break down into smaller and smaller pieces and become these unidentifiable floating objects in waterways, in the soil that we can't necessarily see right away, but also cause damage. So waste collection. Sure. It's important. And we we need to do a better job of collecting things that can be recycled and actually recycling them and, you know, collecting organics and actually composting them to put them back into the soil, put the nutrients back in the soil. But it's not, you know, if it if recycling. Could work. It would have worked by now.

DM: What about industry? I mean, what role do they play? I mean, right now, the big plastic makers are actually suing the federal government to try to to to stop plastic production. So so what role does industry play here?

KAREN WIRSIG: Well, industry wants to keep making money the way it's been making money that those big plastic producers, they do not want to see. And they're supported. Of course, they're all you know, they all have they're all either owned in the U.S. or outside of Canada. And, you know, they have a lot of support around the world, the petrochemical industry, to keep making plastics. And, you know, they're they got to get with the future. I think they have to figure out, I mean, just like the the broader fossil fuel industry, because, of course, the petrochemical industry comes out of the fossil fuel industry, they're going to have to get with the programme and make a transition away from these damaging practises, away from selling of stuff we don't need and can do without, and we're sort of waiting for them. It's appalling that they're suing the government to try to stop these regulations. You know, we need to see them call that off and actually get with the programme.

DM: Angela Based on, on that garbage, that waste that you're picking up off the beach right now, I mean, what, what else is on your wish list to see banned other than the six items that were announced yesterday?

ANGELA RILEY: I really, really dislike plastic strapping. It's used on pallets, but a lot of around boxes of bait that are shipped here from other countries. And we we find so much and it's hard to say what I want banned. Basically, I'd like to see stuff banned that has an alternative to it. So it's hard to ban something if we don't have an alternative to it. But as was just said, some of the stuff that we have we don't even need. Like, why? Why are we buying these little plastic puff old toys or whatever?

DM: Well, yeah. I mean, for example, the free plastic toys that are that are given away and a Happy Meal for it or things like that. I mean, does it need to be plastic.

ANGELA RILEY: Get the books, which probably aren't any better because they're probably coated in plastic. But yeah, it's, it's a lot of consumerism and stuff like that. But I know the things that they are banning. We do have alternatives. And I mean, if you look at our past, there's a lot of answers there too. My grandma used milk bottles that were glass, you know.

DM: Sure. And what it would would help you and your team of volunteers. Angela, I mean, is are there initiatives that would help you spread the message and get more people out?

ANGELA RILEY: So there's a lot of initiatives that are going on like zero waste plastic. And we hook up with a lot of different community groups that want to get out there and do better for the Earth and businesses. But I find the best initiative is just to have initiative, get out there and do something or get out there and say, Hey, I'm not buying that cup anymore full of coffee. I'm going to bring my own. But just so you all know, I have your ear. Tim Hortons makes their coffee in the cup that they have and pours it out into your cup and still throws away that cup. So there's some wash in there going on but it's it's can be hard some times.

DM: Roll up the rim always bothered me a little bit. Let me ask you, Karen, I mean, we're talking about the visible waste that we see. But but I'm wondering how much is production, plastic production and and the water involved, etc.? How much is that part of this conversation?

KAREN WIRSIG: It should be a bigger part of the conversation with plastic. We've focussed on litter and waste, say, for the last decade and for obvious reasons. Right? This is the stuff we see. But you know, there's a beach on Lake Huron, very close to where nearly half of the plastic little pellets are made. That is the most polluted beach with plastic pellets. These are pre-production pellets on all of the Great Lakes. So, I mean, we know that production, aside from all the air emissions, also one of those plastics producers, Nova, is one of the Ontario's top air polluters. So there's pollution that starts right from the beginning. I mean, you go back to extraction and it's, I think, important to note that. I mean, the this plastic production and use takes up space it not only in litter but also in landfills. So we have this refinery near Sarnia that produces two refineries that produce plastics that is on you know, on Jennings Land, which is an indigenous first nation that got displaced to near Sarnia when when it was sort of moved off of the rest of the Lake Huron Territory. And then part of the territory was given away to the refinery more than a hundred years ago. So, I mean, it takes up space. It pollutes the waterways, it pollutes the air, it makes people sick. And we we should recognise that that happens at the front end of production as well. It's not just a waste issue.

DM: And so what would you like to say as we wrap up here? I mean, what should should Canadians be? Obviously, individual initiatives, community initiatives, like like what Angela is doing are important. But what should Canadians be looking forward to in the next one year, three years in terms of plastic bans?

KAREN WIRSIG: Well, we'd like to step up, see, see more atom items added to the ban list. We'd like to see the federal government commit to supporting and even requiring re-use and refill systems for packaging. I mean, then there's all kinds of other types of plastics that we have to get to, you know, clothing, fast fashion we have to think about. And all of this will require not only voluntary commitments from people and companies, but real rules, a real framework to transition us away from the kind of, you know, throwaway cancer excuse me, economy we have today to, you know, what people like to call the circular economy, where we do cherish things and reuse them, make them to last reuse them and collect them again and not consider that once I'm finished with it, I can just throw it out.

DM: Angela, thank you for for sharing the work that you're doing out there on the and on the beaches and in Nova Scotia.

ANGELA RILEY: Thank you.

DM: And thank you, Karen, for joining me in studio.

KAREN WIRSIG: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

DM: Angela Riley is the founder and the team leader of Scotia. Insurers and environmental organisation dedicated to cleaning the shorelines of Nova Scotia. She is in Eastern Passage, Nova Scotia. And Karen Wirsig is the Plastics Programme Manager at Environmental Defence, a Canadian environmental advocacy organisation. She's in Toronto. CBC News is next. And then.

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[Crowds cheering]

DM: Those are crowds cheering for Colombia's new president. Gustavo Petro, the former former rebel with the M 19 movement, is the country's first leftist leader. What his victory might mean for Colombia and for Latin American politics as a whole. That's coming up in 6 minutes. I'm Duncan McCue. And you're listening to The Current.

What Colombia's first leftist president will mean for global politics

Guests: Juanita Leon, Michael Shifter

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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DM: Still to come. For decades, athletes say a culture of abuse and mistreatment has been allowed to flourish in Canadian sport. Now new measures from the government aim to bring change. But first, a new day for Colombia.

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DM: An historic day. That's how Colombia's new president, Gustavo Petro, described his win this past weekend. The former rebel fighter is making history as the country's first ever leftist president. Also making history is his pick for vice president Francia Marquez, a former domestic worker. She's Colombia's first black woman in that post. Their win comes at a time when there's widespread poverty and inequality throughout the country. Juanita Leon is director and founder of La Silla Vacia, which is a news website in that country, and she joins us from Bogota. Good morning.

JUANITA LEON: Good morning. How are you?

DM: I'm doing well. What do you think this win signifies for your country?

JUANITA LEON: Well, it involves a lot of things. I think the first one is that is for the first time, the left is in power. So that is normal for the rest of Latin America is a first for Colombia. And also, this is the first time that an African woman, a woman it's on the ticket. So that's also a third. But I guess the the most significant thing is that is someone that has been the leader of the opposition, the establishment has come to power. So that means a lot for the people that oppose the establishment. And they'd also means a lot of fear for the people from the establishment.

DM: Tell me about Gustavo Petro. What what was it about him that appealed to voters?

JUANITA LEON: Well, I think that basically he represented a change to the status quo in Colombia, has been going through a lot of social disruption, social discontent since 2019. A lot of people mobilised from the streets to protest because 2019, 2020, 2021. And Gustavo Petro represents or give voice to that discontent. So so I guess that explains this election.

DM: A change to the status quo, for sure. I mean, he this is someone who is a former clandestine guerrilla. I mean, he served time in prison for for involvement with with a rebel group. So is is is that is that appealing that that that image that he's projecting to?

JUANITA LEON: Well, not really. I mean, I think that the fact that he was a member, that was 30 years ago. So that's a long time for a lot of people then. And he was mostly elected by young people who don't even remember that period of his life. And but he was a very vocal opposition senator for for 20 years. He was a senator. And he led a lot of investigations on corruption against politicians there. So I think people see him more like that. And older people see him as an extra real member that he has been part of the democracy for 30 years. So so I think that the fact that he was going to be a fighter is not so much part of his appealing that I don't think people like that very much. It is mostly what he has done up there that that the people who voted for him like and the people who didn't vote for him.

DM: Like what about his choice for vice president, Francia Marquez? How significant is it to have her in that position?

JUANITA LEON: Well, that is really significant because she was a social leader in her small community and environmental leader there is she came from a mining fine family. They're very poor in and she was a domestic worker for a long time. And then she started a to become a lawyer. You know, she studied online at a distance. And then she you know, she tried to become a House representative. So she was only like 8000 votes. But then she decided that she wanted to become president. And she did these amazing campaigns. And then and a lot of intellectuals, so many academics really like her because I mean, she's very, she's a [unintelligible], you know, she has all these yeah. She's like the typical American [unintelligible] in that sense, which is weird because of the same time she's very connected to the Afro communities and territory and she got 700,000 votes, which was amazing. No one really expected that.

DM: She's also a black woman. And in a country where Afro Colombians are, you know, faced with racism and is as. That's significant.

JUANITA LEON: Yeah. I'm from a very marginal community in Colombia. I mean, like, really, she came from the rural territories. And I mean, someone like her had never, never been in power. So having that voice and that representation means a lot for a lot of communities.

DM: You said that Petro is a voice for change. What are his plans as president?

JUANITA LEON: What are his what?

DM: His plans as president.

JUANITA LEON: Ah, his plans?.Well, he has a lot of populist ideas, most of them, I think, will be very difficult to execute them. And they, you know, so he wants to stop colombia's dependence on oil. I mean, he wants to stop exploration. He wants to change being health system to make it public. He wants to be the free education for all the young people in here. He's very strong on climate change. So he wants to see a lot of changes related to that, and he has to give a lot of subsidies. So basically this year with him for a lot of people is. But he will not be fiscally responsible. There's a and a he will not take enough care of the economy. And the dollar will go to the ceiling. And that. Yeah. That that he will keep the economy stable. I just coming out of an economic crisis because of the pandemic. So for this year it was not a bad since he doesn't have a majority in Congress, he will have to negotiate a lot with all the other benches and then. So we'll see. We are all really expecting to see what what you know, which of these promises he will be able to complete and how he will kind of walk that fine line between having his bases happy and comply with the desire for change. You mentioned that right behind me.

DM: You mentioned his desire to halt oil exploration. I wonder, how is the business community reacting, whether it's the landowners or the or the oil and gas mining companies?

JUANITA LEON: Yeah. No, they basically all the people that have businesses or that have money are really worried about it because yeah, they fear that that the economy's growing again and that the pain, you know, will become more social issues. And then people are quite fearful. And of course they supported some of the other candidates that that went against president. I mean, better for them is really the biggest name for a boss after his win a and you know the the oil companies and the health companies they you know they said, okay, we hope to work with you to come up with a reform that makes sense. So I think that's the best that we can wait for, for him to force a negotiation of the establishment and the countries that he now represents in and try to form a consensus. He has talked about a national agreement, so we'll see if he is able to make it. He doesn't have a partner. Tradition of being very consensual is really not that good at forming consensus that maybe now that he's in power, he will try.

DM: Well, that's interesting because I mean, he said in his victory speech he wanted to leave hatred behind. So. Yes. I mean, how much of a challenge is that going to be for him to unite Colombia? I mean, which is a country that's that's been been marred by by armed conflict, social divisions for so long.

JUANITA LEON: Yeah, well, I think. I mean, I think that institutions that are have lost a lot of credibility. I mean, if you see all the surveys, a, I don't know, 85% of the people don't believe in Congress or don't believe in the [unintelliglbe]. And then so I think just the fact that he won a makes a lot of people that don't believe that there is a democracy in Colombia to believe that there is a democracy, a democracy, and that notion of power is possible. So that type of thing in itself. And again, if he doesn't do anything else. And but I think he will have a lot of challenges. And also because he's surrounded by a lot of very radical people who are expecting, like, immediate change. And at the same time, he doesn't have a majority in Congress. Colombian government is quite poor and really needs a the business sector. The army is doesn't like him so he has a lot of counterbalances which I think they and that will really force him to to moderate his proposals on to really negotiate.

DM: So lots of challenges ahead.

JUANITA LEON: Yes, a lot of challenges ahead.

DM: Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

JUANITA LEON: Okay. Bye.

DM: Juanita Leon is director and founder of La Silla Vacia, a news website in Colombia. Michael Shifter is a senior fellow and former president of Inter-American Dialogue, a policy forum on Western Hemisphere affairs based in Washington, D.C.. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Good morning.

DM: What message is Gustavo Petro's win sending to Colombia's neighbours and beyond?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, I think certainly the Latin American left governments are embracing and welcoming the his victory, another yet another government of the West and another expression of the rejection of the establishment in the status quo. And we've seen it in other countries, most recently in Chile, but also in Peru and Bolivia and elsewhere. And so I think people are talking about it a new tide or a new trend of government start to left. And obviously, those who are more conservative are which are few, are a little bit nervous and see themselves increasingly in the minority.

DM: You mentioned the shift to the left in Latin America, Chile, Honduras, Costa Rica, Peru. What do you read into that? Why is that happening?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, I think incumbents are very having a very hard time governing. And there are huge demands and expectations by a mobilised and a better informed citizenry, and especially the young, as we see in Colombia, most dramatically. And there's simply the economic conditions aren't aren't sufficient to satisfy those demands. So this that's a formula for frustration and discontent and rejecting the status quo. And so it happens that many of the governments were of the right or the centre right, and they didn't perform well. They didn't deliver. And so now they're people looking for an alternative, which happens to be the left. But I'm sure that if the left should perform well as well, they'll be thrown out. And and the government's more of the central centre right will come back. I think people are just looking for governments that could function, that could meet their demands, that could have decent public services and the like and and outcomes and results. And we haven't seen that in many Latin American countries recently and was made worse clearly by the pandemic.

DM: I'm wondering, though, I mean, how is this move to the left historic going to position Colombia with regard to its relationships with its with other regionally, with other countries?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, Colombia's the third most populous country in Latin America. It's very, very significant after Brazil and Mexico. And we see the most important thing to look for, I think, is the election coming up in Brazil in October, where a leftist, Lula da Silva, is trying to make a comeback to the presidency and the polls show that he's ahead. Petro has talked very openly about an alliance with Lula should he become president of Brazil in January of 2023. And also, he's spoken about Gabriel Burridge, who was recently elected in Chile, a young leader, but also of the left that shares Petro's commitment to combating climate change, environmental issues and the like. So he sees an alliance or a bloc that could be built regionwide with other like minded governments. Whether that will materialise is remains to be seen. All of these leaders are going to be totally consumed by their national problems. And the ability to forge regional blocs or alliances, I think is maybe limited. But I think that's at least the idea and the aspiration that that Petro has has expressed.

DM: The United States, of course, has been one of Colombia's most important allies. How will this change relations between those two countries?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, Petro had had a conversation with Secretary of State Blinken yesterday. And I think there is a willingness and indeed an interest on the part of the United States and the Biden administration certainly and and Petro to try to work out a relationship that's going to be different. It's going to be a new terms. And Petro has has not been shy about his strong opposition to the to the drug war that has been going on for a long time and has been the basis of the relationship with Colombia, about $13 billion in aid since since 2000, since Plan Colombia. Petro rejects that. And so there has to be some sort of accommodation on that issue. There's also the issue of relations with Venezuela. Petro has stated very clearly that he wants to move towards a situation of a bilateral resuming with bilateral relations with Venezuela. The current government of Colombia has been the strongest critic of the Maduro regime in Latin America. So that would be a change. And we'll see how Washington reacts to that. Petro has also called for reopening the free trade deal between Colombia and the United States to try to protect agriculture and industry in Colombia. I don't see much interest of that here in Washington. I think Petro will want to make. Hinga relates to the United States, but also try to balance those relations with with other countries, with China and with Europe and then with other other countries in the world, so that it's not seen as simply so, so tied to the United States as this strategic alliance, which has been kind of touted by the current administration of the UK and the administrations before it. So this would be a shift and it would be important to work out new terms of relationship. I don't see that Petro will want a hostile, adversarial relationship with the United States. That's not in his interest. And for all the issues that Juanita talked about on the domestic agenda, it's not going to be helpful for him to be in a fight with Washington. And so I think there'll be a desire to reach some common ground and some accommodation, but it will require adjustments on both sides.

DM: And it does sound like he's going to be in a fight with with oil and gas, though. I mean, oil and coal currently account for nearly half of Colombia's exports. And he said he wants to phase out these industries. What's that going to mean for Colombia?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, I think what as as one even said in the earlier segment, I think he's going to have to he's going to have to figure out a plan that makes sense. I mean, simply doesn't does it make sense? It will be. It would be it would be completely undermining his agenda if he just cuts that off immediately. That has to be some sort of phase out plan or strategy. And I think that he'll have to do that in consultation with the relevant players. And I think, you know, this will be a test to see if he's able to do that, if he takes a very hard line, radical stance and abrupt stance. I think that simply, as you say, accounts for such a huge share of Colombia's revenues. It's just it's just going to be impossible to finance some of the social programmes and subsidies that he's talking about. So it's just going to be a failure, I don't think. Gustavo Petro, whatever you say about him, he is smart and I don't think he has worked all of his life to be president of Colombia, only to get there, then be a total, total failure. And hopefully he will understand that.

DM: Sure. But there are conservatives, I mean, who are saying that that his plan to tax the wealthy, for example, is as is economic suicide.

MICHAEL SHIFTER: I think those concerns are valid and understandable. But I think that he's you know, as we all say, one thing is to be an opposition leader and a critic. And he's been very good at that and very successful. And now he's he's in a different position and an look around, say, you know, I want to achieve my objectives. I want to satisfy my base. I have to give them resources and support and address all these issues to to to to reduce inequality. But I need money for that. And and if I'm going to, you know, tax the rich so that they leave Colombia and take the capital outside the Columbia and antagonise both national Colombian investors and foreign investors, that's simply that simply that I'm going to fail. And and and I think being in a position of president is is different from being a critic from from the outside. But very effectively, he's going to have to make that adjustment if he doesn't that I think you know, then I think we're looking for a look into a very, very difficult situation that not going to be simply not going to be sustainable and people will be of people will be out on the streets very soon, as we need to said correctly, there are huge expectations for immediate results. If he takes very radical actions against investors, both domestic and foreign, then his base is going to be very frustrated and they'll be out on the streets protesting against him. It's precisely what he did. You capitalised on in the protest against the current government.

DM: Before I let you go, there are Canadians watching this, as well as Canada's oil and gas companies with assets in Colombia saw stocks drop yesterday. Is could his win have an impact on Canada's energy sector?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, I think it could. Again, I think it's part of what he's you know, it's he's made it a key issue in his campaign. He's not going to completely pull back on that. But the question is how he does it. And I think that there there is room for negotiation, whether whether with with the oil companies, Canadian and other foreign oil companies, that we'll see whether he's prepared to do that kind of negotiation. And I think it's going to be very, very to watch for us to see who he picks as this is his finance minister is economy minister, his energy minister, his team. There are a lot of people that are want to help Colombia, that are trying to try and present themselves as possible ministers who are not, you know, who are not radical, who understand precisely these point. The Colombian needs this continued support from oil and gas companies from Canada and elsewhere. And we'll see which way he goes. But I think I think one thing to look for to should we see who he picks as his as his as his ministers and closest advisers?

DM: We'll be watching. Thanks for sharing this.

MICHAEL SHIFTER: My pleasure. Thank you.

DM: Michael Shifter is a senior fellow and former president of Inter-American Dialogue in Washington, DC. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current. We've got a moment here to tell you about something coming up on the programme in the next few days. Tree poaching is big business in B.C. and around the world. It's also taking a toll on forests and the communities around them. Later this week, I'll be speaking with Lindsay Borgen. She has investigated the illicit trade in stolen timber. Although it's evolved over the years, she's found that the practise goes back a long time.

SOUNDCLIP

I think I started off writing the book thinking this is going to be a crime story and it very, very quickly turned into a history, a historical account. And that's because timber poaching is a pretty traditional activity. When I first talk about, for instance, the Charter of the Forest, which is a document that was a mediaeval Middle Ages document that was kind of draughted alongside the Magna Carta in England. Many, many, many years ago, access to the woods was seen as a human right because the woods provided life, it provided materials for shelter, provided a home for wildlife that was then hunted. It was a place where people walked through. So it was kind of like a transitory landscape at the same time. And over time, those sections of wood were enclosed. They were fenced off and removed from the common use, often by bureaucrats or aristocrats or the monarchy, and kind of taken away from common use and turned into preserves that were meant kind of just for hunting and a big form of protest against that became going into those preserves at night and taking wood and kind of poaching animals and using that as a kind of statement that, you know, that you knew what had been taken away from you and that it was, you know, a community resource that you were entitled to, that you needed to live. And I thought that was very interesting. And I ended up hearing pretty serious and overt connections to that when I was interviewing poachers for this book. I think that they really felt the same way.

DM: Lindsay Bergen's book is Tree Thieves Crime and Survival in North America's Woods. And you can hear my conversation with her in the days to come here on The Current. I'm Duncan McCue. And you are listening to The Current. Stick around.

Athletes say efforts to stop abuse in sport must be independent from sporting organizations

Guest: Kim Shore, Nivelle Wright, Jennifer Heil

DC: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

The values we learn on the softball field. Camaraderie, fair play and hard work serve us well off the field too. But behaviours like bullying, harassment and abuse can destroy all the good that sport brings to Canadians as softball.

DC: Campaigns like that one, launched by Softball Canada in 2019, came in the wake of Sport Canada's safe sport policies. The policies were the federal government's attempt to kerb what have been called toxic cultures in Canadian sport. The government allocated $30 million over five years for this. Now the federal minister of Sport, Pascal St George, has announced new measures she says will hold sports organisations accountable and protect athletes from maltreatment and abuse.

SOUNDCLIP

I have instructed officials at Sport Canada to conduct a consultation specifically on the issue of safety in sport. We shouldn't be afraid of what athletes have to say because every time that something comes out, it's an opportunity to make changes and to be better.

DC: For the athletes who have endured or witnessed abuse firsthand. These measures are a long time coming. Neville Wright is a three time Olympian who retired from the National Bobsleigh team in 2019. He's also a former track and field athlete. Kim Shore is a former gymnast and the mother of a former gymnast. She's also a former board member of Gymnastics Canada. And Jennifer Heil is an Olympic gold medallist who skied with Canada's freestyle team for about ten years until her retirement in 2011. Good morning to all three of you.

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Morning.

KIM SHORE: Good morning.

DC: Good morning. Kim, I want to start with you. You were a gymnast for six years later. Your daughter followed in your footsteps, got involved in the sport. Tell us about your experience.

KIM SHORE: Well, I think I speak on behalf of hundreds of gymnasts who have come forward lately, all of us saying the same thing. We have endured decades of a toxic culture that is really rooted in dominance control and highly abusive tactics that involve repetitive verbal abuse for hours and hours a week. Most gymnasts that are on the high performance track train up to 30 hours a week, and they can be as young as nine or ten years old. We've endured physical, emotional, and some have even endured sexual abuse.

DC: How much of that were you hearing from athletes, Kim, while you were a board member of Gymnastics Canada because, I mean, you were you could see how things were being handled firsthand. Three years you were a board member there. And then in July 2021, you resigned. So so how much of those complaints were you hearing from athletes at that time?

KIM SHORE: Sadly, I was on the board of directors for Alberta Gymnastics as well, and that's when it first started that. I began to hear stories from athletes and their parents, and that really motivated me to see if I could help make change by joining the Gymnastics Canada board. But really, I became a repository for hundreds of stories athletes and parents contacting me and then not really having anywhere to go to find effective justice or really measures to stop what was happening and to operate within a system seemed like the right thing and the most effective thing to do. But I figured out it just wasn't going to work. There were too many vested interests, conflicts of interests, individuals that had other motivations and other goals in mind beyond athlete safety.

DC: You mentioned verbal abuse, physical abuse, even sexual abuse. I want you to listen to Amelia Cline. She started gymnastics at the age of two. She loved her sport until her final years.

KIM SHORE: For about the last three years of my career, I was in a gym where we had coaches who were quite verbally, psychologically and physically abusive.

DC: Two years ago, Amelia wrote a blog about her experience, and she was flooded with messages from former gymnasts across the country who had similar stories. Last month, a million, a number of former gymnasts launched a class action lawsuit against Gymnastics Canada.

KIM SHORE: First of all, holding the institutions accountable for allowing systemic abuse to continue through decades. And second of all, to offer support financially for the survivors who now suffer with the consequences of these abuses.

DC: Kim, that led to an open letter calling for an independent third party investigation. What are the athletes and coaches who signed this open letter hoping to achieve?

KIM SHORE: We're all hoping to achieve an independent third party investigation. And we really need the government of Canada, the sport minister, to sign off on that. Honestly, the system has failed athletes. So now they're going public or they're signing a letter or they're taking civil action as a way to motivate sport organisations to step up and do the right thing. But we need government support for that. It does not seem that sport organisations are motivated on their own to do that. And so things like an open letter or a lawsuit, they're really a last resort to achieve accountability and justice because we want to make systemic change. So we want to support and find a way forward so that we have effective mechanisms within the sports system to improve toxic cultures and ensure that abusive individuals are kept away from athletes. And especially if those athletes are children.

DC: I'm sure that our other guests are going to identify with what you're talking about, toxic culture. So let's bring them in. Neville Let's talk about your experience with Bobsleigh Canada skeleton. There was an open letter sent earlier this year to that sport's governing body, accusing it of fostering a toxic environment and of harassment and systemic racism, amongst other complaints. You recently came out of retirement, so. So what have you dealt with during your long career as a bobsledder?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: It gradually got worse for me. It was really challenging to with the environment and the culture of the sport. And then recently coming out of retirement, I felt how I was being treated, being exposed to wear, having to test while injured, putting me through extreme cases of training and racing like we're at the race do three races under 19 hours you know I've spoken to over for the AP is hearing their stories right now you know and we were doing our best to try to change that. But it just seems that the organisation is is fixed on keeping control and disregarding the complaints of the athletes.

DC: You mentioned injuries, Neville, your own injuries. How much of that at the elite level, how much of the abuse that the young athletes are experiencing relates around injuries?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Sport, bobsleigh, obviously there's risks with it. But when there's certain situations of neglect where athletes are being forced to test with injuries or train or compete to, you know, being denied therapy, one athlete who is ejected over sled was denied therapy, sat down for two weeks without any type of support. So things like that. We're doing our best to mitigate that risk of injury in the sport where it seems that we're not, you know, the athletes are getting the support for that.

DC: Neville A lot of Canadians are likely aware of Kaillie Humphries complaint. She alleged verbal and mental harassment by Canada's bobsled coach, and then she ended up quitting Team Canada to compete for the U.S. in the last Olympics. How did her speaking out influence others in your sport?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Like I mean, myself, I did support some of the allegations that were placed out there in regards to what's been going on within the programme. The issue with I think other athletes is, you know, that fear of retaliation. When I spoke up, there was that concern that, you know, if I speak up, there's going to be some type of consequence or recourse for speaking up. So it was difficult for a lot of the athletes, but I think now this has gotten so bad where athletes have no choice.

DC: Neville, if that fear of retaliation is part of what's behind the open letter, I mean, how likely do you think that your sport's governing body is is going to to acquiesce to the demands in that letter?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: They're not addressing anything right now. Right now the athletes are being ignored and the organisations continuing as like your business as usual.

DC: Jenn, let me bring you in now the story at Alpine Canada. I mean, it's going to sound an awful lot similar to what we just heard just a couple of years ago. I remember there was a settlement for a sexual assault lawsuit involving a former coach. Why do you think that sports and especially elite sports are so susceptible to these kinds of abuses?

JENNIFER HEIL: I mean, sadly, every survivor story here is unique. But the reason that we continue to hear stories is because this is a systemic issue and there just aren't the safeguards in place to stop this abuse. So we have huge power imbalances where it's not safe to bring a complaint forward because you're bringing them forward to the organisations which are overseeing abusive behaviour.

DC: You say it's not safe. Can you give me an example of what might happen if an athlete brought forward a complaint of verbal or physical abuse?

JENNIFER HEIL: Yeah, I mean, I don't have to speak hypothetically. There's plenty of examples where athletes in all sports have lost their position on the team. It's most dangerous to come forward when you're in a team sport because coaches have a lot of discretion as to who plays on the team and who's a part of the championships. And so if you're coming forward with allegations against a certain coach, it's very easy to be removed from playing on that team. And that's what we've seen happen in many, many sports. So athletes lose their careers or they go back into the same environments where they've made allegations against a coach, where they're not safe, where they're alone with that coach.

DC: Which I mean contributes to the high pressure environment that elite athletes are already facing. Jenn And I know that's something you've been quite concerned about, is athletes mental health. You worked in designing and developing safe sport system in B.C. that that province is currently implementing. What other kind of changes do you think that that sports systems need to do right across the country to to keep athletes safe?

JENNIFER HEIL: I mean, one of the main reasons for my advocacy is because I sat with a lot of victims in this work to design and develop the system in B.C. And it was just heartbreaking that Kim alluded to as well, where, you know, entire lives are destroyed from this and then they're revictimized because they can't come forward, they can't seek justice. They can't believe their silence in many cases. And so there's been a lot of steps taken, but this has to be addressed. So this has just become mandatory, but it has to be enforced. It has to be tied to funding. So in cases where sports choose to ignore the issues, they're actually audited and their funding's at risk. A better way to do it is actually to create safe sport legislation like the U.S. government has done where this becomes law, and so it's easier to enforce. The other thing we need is a centralised sanctions database, so we have to be able to uphold the sanctions. And this is a key pattern that happens in the system where a coach is quietly let go for abuse, where it isn't properly investigated, and then comes back into the system at a different level so that a centralised, searchable database is absolutely necessary. And then we just need the commitment that we're going to build a safe sport for all where those power imbalances between athlete and coach and athlete and organisation are removed.

DC: Jen. Last year you wrote a letter to the Government on behalf of 12 Olympic and Paralympic athletes asking for some of those better protections for abuse victims in Canadian sport. You got a chance to interface a bit with with Minister St and her team. What did you think of the response you got?

JENNIFER HEIL: [Unintelligible] has been very responsive. She understands the complexity of the issue, that this is systemic. There has been sufficient funding coming forward to launch the new centralised system. We asked for this to be mandatory because there was a loophole where Nso's national sport organisations could opt out. So that's been closed. But now we need to ensure that that this mandatory system is enforced.

DC: I can I can hear all of your concern expressing really cruelty that athletes, young athletes often are experiencing, whether it's verbal abuse or physical or sexual. But I also hear each one of you are talking about this happening quietly and a kind of culture of secrecy in each of your sports. So so let me just ask each one of you. I mean, how does the lack of transparency, how is that adding to to this toxic culture in sports in Canada? Let me start with you, Kim.

KIM SHORE: Yeah, definitely. I think that the secrecy is what perpetuates the abuse. There's a real reluctance for adults to call other adults out. You know, we've seen a lot of very swift action taken whenever an athlete steps out of line, but not so much when it's a leader or a coach. You know, we can't forget that these systems are made up of individuals, individual people. And the Canadian sports system is riddled with leaders who have enabled unsafe environments in secrecy for many, many years. And a lot of these leaders have lost the trust and faith of the athletes that are meant to serve. So if there are individuals, especially leaders within the system, who are racist or dishonest, maybe invested in their own power or worse, you know, they've made mistakes that they're actively working to cover up. How can our sport system be improved? Canadian athletes really need those leaders to have extraordinary moral courage to dig our way out of this crisis and to shine a light on all those dark corners that none of us have wanted to really look at for a long time.

DC: And Neville, I mean, you hear it sometimes, you know, what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room. Is that still prevalent and adding to this problem?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Well, you know, when it comes to like these systemic issues of abuse, neglect, poor culture in the sphere of retaliation, it's become so normalised. And then the worst part is that athletes are held we're held accountable. There's so much accountability on this when it comes to you know, are at the agreement code of conduct. Sport Canada carding doping you know filling out these forms and so forth. But then you have these individuals, these coaches and, you know, administrative staff and so forth where they're not held to the same accountability measure.

DC: Is it particularly acute when it comes to dealing with racism level?

NEVILLE WRIGHT: It's something that has progressively been an issue, you know, from myself coming into the sport and I have seen it progress and 2021, 2022 season where it was pretty blatant, where I spoke to, you know, all the athletes, the Bipoc athletes and the majority of them have all had. Issues or complaints have been treated a certain way, have been denied opportunities. So, I mean, you know, we've addressed this and the response is, you know, they've done culture clinics and it's almost like a checkbox of saying, because we did this, you know, that means we're dealing with it, we're addressing it, which that's not the case.

DC: Okay. So we're talking about dealing with it. I want you all to stand by while I bring in another guest. Sarah Peltier is Canada's new sport integrity commissioner. She began her new role just this week. She is a former member of Canada's National Autistic Swim Team, as well as having worked for the Canadian Olympic Committee prior to getting this new role as the Sport Integrity Commissioner. She will receive complaints about alleged maltreatment in sport and will have the ability to launch independent investigations and recommend sanctions against individuals who are found to have committed violations. Sarah-Eve Pelletier joins me now. Good morning.

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: Good morning.

DC: You just listen to those athletes. How common are these stories of toxic cultures in sports in Canada right now?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: Well, we've heard from three athletes and Survivor this morning and we have all heard over the last few months very courageous athletes coming forward with their stories, as are breaking as it is to hear all of those stories. I don't know what else we need as a sport and as a as a community in terms of wakeup call. The athletes are using their their collective voice are being extremely brave. But I think it's it's for all of us to be responsible and for all of us to take action.

DC: Let me ask you, as a former national athlete, were you ever abused either either mentally or physically or or did you witness any abuse of your fellow swimmers?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: I consider myself extremely privileged because my experience in sport has been very positive. I do think that sports should be about the joy. You know, what I take away from my sport experiences is all the friendships, all the the learnings, all the growth, the things that I learnt about myself that I was able to carry on with me in a career, a very enriching experience. And now I'm am a mother of three children and I want my children and the other children in Canada to have such a positive experience and see all the benefits that sport should be offering. But again, it is so heartbreaking to know that it hasn't been the case for all athletes and quite a number of athletes. And if I may say, even if there had been just one case of maltreatment, one case is too many.

DC: And I'm glad to hear you speak of the joys of sport. I mean, that's what we should be talking about when it comes to sport and participation. But but just last year in your own sport, a number of of former artistic swimmers filed a class action lawsuit against Canada, artistic swimming over psychological abuse and harassment that they suffered in during training. Was that type of abuse taking place when when you were a member of the team?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: I'm not in a position to comment on any particular sports situation or any any situation in any given sport. What I may say is that athletes have have used extraordinary measures to let those in position to make change know that change was required. And those extraordinary measures have brought light onto something that is completely wrong.

DC: I mean, we're seeing reports from alpine skier, soccer, rugby, most of them female reporting psychological, verbal, physical, sexual abuse inside national teams, Canada's national teams. With this new position, how are you going to tackle something that seems to be so ingrained and widespread.

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: At the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner was was created based on an identified need by the sport community and by demands of people in this community to create an independent system. So when we talking about a system where athletes and individual will feel like they can turn to safely without fear of retribution, our office will will address. I think you're speaking a little bit to what our guests have called systemic abuse and systemic issues and toxic culture. And in all of the things that are not particular to one case, but really are ingrained in an organisation or maybe even in multiple organisations. And there are two things that our office will do in particular that can I don't want to say solve everything, but can can play a part in moving the agenda forward. And those two things are the ability we will have to initiate or look into complaints that will come our way. And those would be complaints of alleged violations of the newly refreshed universal code of Conduct to prevent and address maltreatment in sport. And those would be allegations against individuals that are part of a programme signatory. Organisation. So an organisation that has signed on to the programme and when we are looking into those complaints we will have the possibility to launch a formal investigation and where a finding of violation is being confirmed, there would be a possibility to recommend sanctions and to further in the system impose sanctions on individuals. That's only one way that targets individuals.

DC: I want to ask you about the sanctions. But but but before I get there, I mean, a little earlier, we heard from a former gymnast, Amelia Cline. And I just want to play a little bit more from her.

SOUNDCLIP

The policies that are being announced don't take effect until 2023. And we know that children are being abused in gyms across this country right now. So my question for the government is, what are you going to do urgently to develop policies that are actually going to take effect now and make a difference now because we can't allow children to continue being abused in this country, in sport.

DC: So you're talking about the ability to look into complaints and do investigations. I mean, what do you say to people like Amelia who who are calling for action right now? I mean, are you are you ready to to get rolling and start investigating right away?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: Well, definitely on our side, our systems are ready and we're actually in operation. We are only beginning a progressive rollout. Things like making it mandatory and measures that will make sure that as many organisations as possible are held accountable to this same system. We definitely encourage any steps taken in this space because it will accelerate the transition that is required for organisations to be held to high standards.

DC: What about your office's independence? I mean, should should athletes be concerned that you're going to get pressure from the government or the national sports organisations to just sweep things under the carpet?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: Well, our system is definitely designed to preserve that independence and we, we think, very great care to ensure that that independence is maintained at every possible corner from the way the system is designed to the boundaries that we set and the roles that each of the actors and decision makers and the system play.

DC: So last question for you. What type of power do you actually have if you uncover any wrongdoing in any sport?

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: The way this system is designed is that you will have the ability to recommend sanctions and then a separate, independent rule can impose sanctions. And I guess talked about the importance of having a central repository of all the sanctions so that people that are found of wrongdoing cannot navigate from one sport to the other. This is definitely something that is implemented in part of the system. And also to address the systemic issues, our office will have the ability to launch a sport environment assessment. And for that, the goal is really to look into those cultural and systemic issues within a sport environment. And the goal is to formulate recommendations that will be there to improve the sport environment for current and future participants.

DC: Commissioner, good luck in your new role. Looks like you're going to be busy.

SARAH-EVE PELLETIER: Thank you so much.

DC: That's Canada's new sports integrity commissioner, Sara Peltier. Kim Shaw, Jennifer Hale and Neville Wright have all been listening in. What do you think about what Sara Peltier has to say about her new role? Kim, let me start with you.

KIM SHORE: I am encouraged that we are implementing measures such as the one that the commissioner suggested. However, the commissioner's ability to gain athletes trust will be 100% contingent on how independent from sport they actually are both real and perceived. So they need to be able to eliminate all conflicts of interest. And for example, you know, we have 500 gymnasts calling for an independent third party investigation. They want to know who is going to scope the investigation, who are they going to hire to do the investigation and who is going to own the report at the end? Is that report going to get shelved or is it going to be shared and transparent for the whole community to work together? Right now, the gymnasts are saying it's a non-starter. They're not prepared to go forward with an entity such as the CRC, which is the overarching body for the Commissioner's office, because there is a member of the SD, RCC Board of Directors who also currently sits on the board of Directors for Gymnastics Canada. So if that doesn't feel like a threat to athletes, I'm not sure what what does that mean? That's about as bad as it gets, and that's nothing on that individual. It's just a reflection of the lack of independence from sport organisations.

DC: Neville, thoughts on on what Commissioner Peltzer had to say.

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Yeah, the biggest concern is that there are many issues that are going on right now and their athletes are going back to training. Going to be. Eating sewage and so forth and in a state of war. What about us? What's going to happen right now kind of thing?

DC: Jennifer Heil, last word to you. How optimistic are you that this time changes is actually going to happen?

JENNIFER HEIL: Look, I'm hopeful. I think we are taking the right steps to build a centralised system. We heard that there are limitations right now to that system in terms of the sport commissioner's office power and authority. And that's where we need to go further and do what the U.S. has done and make this into law. We really need to get to the gold standard of building the best system, and that is going to be an important part of it for it to be both centralised and mandatory and enforced. And the reason why a lot of this is so hard is because abuse is often great in the moment, the most egregious form. Yes, we can recognise it, but it's very hard to recognise in real time because it's small actions. And so athletes really aren't clear around what their rights are, what a positive environment should look like. And so huge efforts have to go into educating athletes in terms of what that abuse looks like in real time.

DC: I want to thank you all for sharing your voice with us. Thank you for joining us.

JENNIFER HEIL: Thanks for having us.

NEVILLE WRIGHT: Thank you.

KIM SHORE: Have a great day.

DC: Okay. You all take care. Kim Shore is a former gymnast and former board member of Gymnastics Canada. Neville Wright is a former member of Canada's bobsleigh team. And Jennifer Heil skied with Canada's freestyle team for a decade. And that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for cue. Coming up, Bison have been at the centre of Adrien Simpson's art for decades. The creature informs his paintings, photography, sculptures, installations, even his performative alter ego Buffalo Boy, with an exhibit surveying 20 years of his work in Saskatoon. The Blackfoot artist reflects on his relationship to bison and how it reflects on Canada's shameful colonial history. I'm also going to get a plug in here. Episode six of Kuper Island. That's the podcast that I host about Indian Residential Schools Drops. Today, we tracked down a former staff member who witnessed abuse and the abuser. So check that out at CBC Podcasts and happy National Indigenous Peoples Day to y'all. I'm Duncan McCue. Jimmy gwitch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

The Current Transcript for June 21, 2022

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Plans to ban some single-use plastics is a ‘tepid’ step forward, says advocate

What Colombia's first leftist president will mean for global politics

Athletes say efforts to stop abuse in sport must be independent from sporting organizations

Tuesday June 21, 2022 Full Transcript

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