Canadians taking second jobs, skipping meals to cope with inflation

Guests: Amanda McKearny, Laura Warren, Sebastian McMahon

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I feel very comfortable offering this vaccine to my patients and family members that haven't had the option yet.

DUNCAN MCCUE: U.S. health officials have cleared the way for COVID vaccines to be administered to children under five. In 30 minutes will consult an infectious disease expert on what Canadian parents need to know about protecting their kids. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

The programme in Pakistan has done an amazing job in bringing the case count down to historic lows.

DM: So if the polio vaccine programme has been successful, what's behind a recent outbreak of polio amongst kids in Pakistan? In an hour, we'll find out why a disease that's been eradicated in nearly every country in the world is still paralysing children in Afghanistan and Pakistan. But first, inflation is rising. The economy is sputtering. What's it all mean for you and your pocketbook? I'm Duncan McHugh, sitting in for Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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I do not underestimate the economic difficulties and frankly, the uncertainty of the months to come.

DM: Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland last week introducing the Federal Government's affordability plan.

SOUNDCLIP

We've been through two years of remarkable turbulence. Our challenge now is to land the plane and a soft landing is not guaranteed. But fortunately for all of us, there is absolutely no country in the entire world better placed than Canada to achieve that soft landing.

DM: To get there, the government will spend $8.9 billion this year. Much of that is money that was already committed from child care and dental coverage to increasing benefits for lower income families and seniors. It comes as Canadians across the country face inflation at the highest levels we've seen in a generation. Maryann Rogers is a recent UBC graduate and she's worried about what lies ahead for her.

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It's definitely nerve wrecking and just kind of like trying to go out into the adult world, knowing that the economy and everything like that is in such dire straits at the moment. It's hard to imagine myself in, I don't know, ten years living comfortably in a house with a family, just kind of like a typical, quote unquote typical life.

DM: She's not alone in her fears about the future. Amanda McKearny lives in Maple Ridge, B.C. She receives a military disability pension and is raising four children with her partner. And Laura Warren is a homeowner and hairstylist in Winnipeg. Laura and Amanda, good morning to you both.

GUESTS: Good morning.

DM: Laura, let me start with you. How is the rising cost of just about everything affecting how you live day to day?

LAURA WARREN: Wow. There's so much that has changed over the last couple of years. It's almost like I'm living in a different world where I used to be comfortable. I mean, I don't make a lot of money. I used to be comfortable. I was able to cover my bills and maybe, you know, order food once in a while as a treat. Now, my gas tank has gone from being 40 a cell to 85. Hydro got a 20% price increase. So that went up. The city reassessed my property and decided it was worth a whole bunch more. So my property taxes went up and my income has shrunk because of the pandemic. So it's made things really, really tight.

DM: Laura, you're a hairstylist. I mean, you must have been closed for months during the pandemic. So you mentioned that you're a homeowner. I mean, how have have increasing mortgage rates impacted?

LAURA WARREN: You know, it's well, excuse me, my mortgage is is actually up for renewal. And I'm frankly terrified that when I go to renew that because of the increase, I got mine at a really nice rate and locked it in. But with everything climbing and my income decreasing, I'm actually worried that I'm not going to qualify for my mortgage. And that's kind of terrifying.

DM: So you're up for renewal. What are you going to do with rates going up?

LAURA WARREN: Hope for the best. Honestly, I am because I have some equity in my home. I'm thinking that that will probably save me and I might be able to get the renewal, but then it's going to be am I still going to be able to afford to make the mortgage payment?

DM: Amanda, tell me about you. Where are you and your family currently living?

LAURA WARREN: Maple Ridge, B.C.

DM: And what's your home situation?

LAURA WARREN: It's been better. Because of COVID protocols at a lot of workplaces, my partner just had to take three weeks off for a cold and that has kind of put us behind on some bills. It's not great, but we're coping.

DM: Your in-laws are helping out in this situation.

LAURA WARREN: Kind of. We live in the coach house on their property. So if anything happens, like if he was to lose his job, they wouldn't evict us. So stable housing is great. But they still have their stuff to pay, right? So they're on pension now at this point. And their property tax actually just went up $1,000 for the year. And honestly, they haven't done any improvements to the property. It's just because all the housing in the area is just exploded in the last two years. And, you know, you can't really get a house here for less than $1,000,000.

DM: You have four kids, Amanda. I don't know about you, but when I go into the grocery store, I've been noticing the difference. With four children. How are you managing with the higher food costs?

LAURA WARREN: Not very well, but it's summertime now are kind of we started growing plants in the house, probably warming in we started growing plants in the house around February, I think. And that's going to go into the garden soon. So that should take a load off. I think part of my disability pension was also a bit of a payout for some of the things I was medically released for. So we have that as a cushion if anything really dire happens, but that's not going to last forever.

DM: Are you having to sacrifice things right now?

LAURA WARREN: Not yet, but we know it could get there. And like, if my if my spouse has to keep taking time off work when he gets a cold, that's going to impact us for sure.

DM: Laura, I mean, you're you're facing this difficult position of where you're concerned about making your mortgage. What else are you thinking about in terms of trying to make ends meet?

LAURA WARREN: I have actually given a lot of thought to possibly trying to get a second part time job because I only work until six in the evening. So there's a lot of industries that work evenings and I'm possibly contemplating an extra job just to try and bring money. And I do have a spare room in my house, but I foster for animal rescue and that's where I house my fosters. So it is an option, but the thought of having a stranger living in my house with my dogs when I'm not here terrifies me more than skipping a few meals so that they can eat. So yeah, second job is where I'm kind of looking at this particular point in time.

DM: Skipping a few meals. I mean, are you literally cutting back on food?

LAURA WARREN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. My dogs get fed before I do. My animals always get fed before I do. And if I'm eating, you know, once a day or twice a day instead of three meals a day, that's completely fine.

DM: Oh, boy. We both heard Maryann in the introduction there, and she's just starting out in the adult world, as she put it, adulting, and she's losing hope of having a typical comfortable life in ten years time. Let me ask you both. What's worrying you when you both look at your own future? Amanda, let me start with you.

LAURA WARREN: So when I was medically released last year, part of it was sending me back to school for two years or less. So I'm at I'm at [unintelligible] in Burnaby now taking the Environmental Health Programme, and then when I'm done, I will be working as a public health inspector or environmental health officer. So I'm hoping because there's word throughout the industry that they'll be raising the wages of entry environmental health officers because, A, there's a very, very limited supply of us. And B, a bunch of environmental health officers are retiring. Quite, quite a lot of them are retiring in the next like 5 to 10 years.

DM: So she you've got some hope for job prospects then?

LAURA WARREN: I do, but I worry about my kids because I have the four at home, but I also have three adult children. And my daughter was supposed to start nursing school and she was getting ready to apply after she took her upgrading. And then COVID happened and she was like, Nope, not for me. So I don't know what she's planning to do. And my two older sons, one of them is a car mechanic. He's doing okay. But my younger of the two, he is a lot attendant at a car dealership that does not pay very well. And that's in Winnipeg.

DM: Let me ask you, Laura, is there something right now one thing that would help you the most?

LAURA WARREN: Oh, my gosh. Something that would help me the most. People, come get your hair done again. You know, people have stopped coming as often. They got really used to it during COVID when we were shut down three separate times for a total of six months. So regular clients that would be coming every four weeks or now every 6 to 8 weeks. And people who would be coming to get their hair coloured every 4 to 6 weeks are now 8 to 10 weeks. So, I mean, everybody's having the same situation. We're all like a flock of ducks. You see us paddling on the water and it's all clear and soft and it looks lovely. But under underneath, we're all paddling like mad just to stay alive. Everybody's in the same boat. And I don't know that there is one thing that is going to change that I honestly don't.

DM: That's not a bad metaphor. Thank you both for joining us. And good luck as you as you try to weather the storm over the next little while.

LAURA WARREN: Thank you so much.

DM: Laura Warren is in Winnipeg and Amanda McKeany is in Maple Ridge, British Columbia. Well, many Canadians are already feeling the squeeze of inflation, as you just heard. Economists are warning it could get worse before it gets better and that a recession could be on the horizon. Sebastian McMahon is chief strategist and senior economist at IAE Financial Group in Quebec City. Sebastian, hello.

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Hello.

DM: What do you see on the horizon for Canadians like Laura and Amanda, who I mean, you just heard are already struggling to make ends meet?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Yeah, it's unfortunate. And we've had a massive economic shock over the last few years, just maybe just to remember that when we were in 2018, 2019, the signs were there that we could already have a recession in 2020, maybe 2021. We're seeing already a slowdown and then the pandemic hit and made things worse. We had governments and central banks were the Bank of Canada just doing everything that they could to support the economy, to go through that, to make sure that we didn't fall into an economic depression because that was a risk that we were facing. And that gave us a year or two of, you know, economic exuberance with very strong growth. But now we're really feeling the after effects. So the after effects, the main one, of course, is inflation. And what was described in these, in what the people with hair were were describing.

DM: Well, you describe it as going through an economic shock. It's almost, though, I mean, governments did jump in with a shock treatment during the pandemic. Are we paying the price for that?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Yeah, exactly. So when you look at the typical Canadian household, the the average household, it got richer by $230,000 during the pandemic. But that's the average. It's masks, you know, of course, the inequitable inequality in there. So housing up one 50,000 per household in Canada and also those that had money in the stock market that went up. But if you did not have a house and if you did not have money in the stock market, then you find yourself in the most difficult situation because now you're facing inflation from food and from gasoline mostly. Those are the main ones right now. It's mostly from geopolitics. Of course, there were some supply systems, some supply chain issues and all of that. But now it's more about Russia and the Ukraine pushing the price of food higher. You know, Ukraine, Russia, they're big exporters of food. Now they have other things to do than working on their crops. There's Europe trying to move away from Russian energy. So this pushes the price of oil. That's gasoline everywhere around the world. So we're in this situation here where inflation is going to fall down at some point, probably next year, 2023, late in the year maybe inflation will be back 2 to 3%. But the level of prices that we're seeing now, just like a grocery store like you described, this is not getting back to where it was before.

DM: Many of the factors you just described are global factors. Chrystia Freeland said Canada is well-placed to avoid a recession. What do you think?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Yeah, I agree that we're better at that and we're in a better position to avoid a recession because, one, our labour market is very strong and it's so strong, in fact, that we're starting maybe to feel that we're getting very close to maximum employment here in Canada. So there's one thing and the other one. Well, the global factors, the geopolitics, I mean, it's putting pressure on stuff that. Canada exports like you, like food, like energy, like metals. So it's helping us. So we do see the Canadian economy as being more resilient. But that doesn't mean that we can avoid a slowdown. Maybe we can avoid a recession, but a slowdown if the world slows. Canada being a small but very open economy, it should this slowdown as well.

DM: I asked Laura, you know, what would help right now? And she said, boy, just help the people that come and get a haircut again. What about with the federal government? I mean, what could they be doing to help Canadians deal with what the really immediate impacts of inflation?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Sure. So, as I mentioned, gasoline prices are an issue. So maybe cutting gas taxes like we've seen in Alberta, that could be a solution, a part time solution. One thing that you can do and I mean, as you can hear a little bit from my accent, I'm from Quebec, Canada, Quebec City. So in the province of Quebec, here we have the government sending checks to I mean, the first wave was too broad, so they sent money to everyone, $500 to everyone who had the incomes of the below $100,000. So, of course, this is so much money sent to people. So everyone was saying, well, you're going to create some more inflation on top of the inflation that's already there. So there's a second wave that's coming in the fall here and it should be more targeted. And this is exactly what governments should do around the world. Just look at those that are in need. Send cheques to these people for things that are really helpful. There is a lot of fiscal room in Canada. The federal government is the amongst the G7 countries. We have the lowest level of debt. We can afford it. So the government needs to be there to support those in need.

DM: You're very specific there, though, especially. And you said, you know, sending a check to those in need. Yes. Some people have been hoping that the federal government, not just Quebec, but but the federal government might send them a check in the mail to help cover the costs right now with gas and food. What would that kind of government intervention do?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Well, it could help if you target those that have the lower incomes are let's see, young families. I mean, where I mean, if it's food and gasoline, I mean, it's kind of easy to target that those that have lower revenues or if you have more kids in the house, I mean, the young families that those are the same those that are strongest hit harder hit by the inflationary pressures. So if you can just give them some air to breathe so that I mean, after you're you're at the grocery store, you don't know you don't see that all of the more like a good chunk of the income is gone. And then you have money on the side to, you know, buy the other things that are not as necessary as food and gasoline, just, you know, just to give a breath of fresh air to these households. That would make a big difference just to go through the current situation.

DM: On top of inflation, of course, the cost of borrowing is rising. The Bank of Canada, U.S. Federal Reserve both hiking interest rates. Another raise is expected next month. How high are you expecting it to go, Sebastian?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Well, I think interest rates, if you look at the the overnight rate from the Bank of Canada, we're at 1.5% now, which was a 0.25% early in the year. And the bank itself is pointing towards 3%. So so we have 1.5% more to go. So if if you're out there and you have and you have a floating rate on your mortgage and every time that you have a hike, well, it costs more in interest on you, on your mortgage. So you can't really avoid the pain. If you have a fixed rate right now. I mean, it's not biting as it goes, but when you have to renew. So at some point you're going to have to at the at a higher price. And like the person referred to in the interview before, if you have some home equity, then that's going to help just to renew the mortgage. But those that they're renewing in 2022, those typically a term is five years. So that that those are people that debt that had their mortgage in 2017. Now the interest rate is a bit higher than 2017. But what's really worrying is those that will be were renewing in 2025 from the very, very low rates of 2020. That's going to be quite a shock.

DM: In a nutshell, Sebastian, and I know there's a long answer to this, but but I mean, bottom line, should Canadians be preparing for a recession right now?

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Canada is and should prepare for inflation to remain strong this year, for growth to slow down, for a readjust. In some industries they should prepare for for a strong slowdown, a recession, maybe. But I think that Canada is in very good footing right now to be able to to to avoid a recession. So let's say the odds of a recession are, let's say, 30 to 35%, something like that. So it's not the best case scenario, but it's not nothing at all.

DM: That's not not bad either. I'm not I'm not a betting man, but that's not bad odds. Thank you for that encouraging word.

SEBASTIAN MCMAHON: Sure. Sure. Thank you.

DM: Sebastien McMahon is a chief strategist and senior economist at I.A. Financial Group in Quebec City. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

The antibody levels seen in kids were essentially identical to that, seen in teenagers, adults and so forth, which, you know, is a meaningful way to infer that there should be good protection.

DM: The results are in, and the United States has approved the use of the COVID vaccines for children under five. The wait continues in Canada. In 6 minutes, we'll talk COVID and kids. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

U.S. approves COVID-19 vaccines for kids under 5

Guests: Dr. Core Constantinescu, Taylor Owen

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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DM: Still to come, walking the fine line between free speech and disinformation. But first, the United States approves COVID vaccines for young children.

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I know many parents with very young children have been anticipating this day. We now know, based on rigorous scientific review, that the vaccines available here in the United States can be used safely and effectively in children under five.

DM: It was a long anticipated announcement on the weekend. The Centre for Disease Control in the United States cleared the way for COVID vaccines to be offered to kids between the ages of six months and five years old. That has some doctors in Canada wondering if Health Canada will soon follow suit. Dr. Cora Constantinescu is a paediatrician and an infectious disease doctor at Alberta Children's Hospital. Hello.

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Hello.

DM: What was your reaction to this approval in the U.S.?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Well, you know, like a lot of parents, I felt relieved that there is a way to protect these younger kids. You know, we've now had vaccines that these vaccines have completely shifted the tone of the pandemic. We've had them now for adults for a year and a half. So I think to a huge extend, many parents have felt that maybe kids have been deprioritized in this pandemic. So I think this data, you know, looking at the data that was presented to the U.S. FDA for authorisation brings hope to many Canadian parents.

DM: Where is Canada at in the process?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Well, we know that model now, one of the pharmaceutical companies that has a vaccine available to kids under five has applied to Health Canada at the end of April. So this is now at least for the Moderna product. Health Canada is reviewing it.

DM: And can you walk us through a little bit? I mean, what do we know about the efficacy of the of the vaccine vaccines for children younger than five?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: You know, Duncan, I wish we to some extent had this vaccine before we had this conversation, before Armageddon, before we saw so many kids hospitalised, and when we could talk about good efficacy against infection and mild disease. But so what we know is that we have two vaccines, that the two vaccines were authorised by the FDA in the U.S.. One is the Moderna vaccine, and that's a two dose vaccine of 25 micrograms each. And that preliminary vaccine efficacy against mild infection. And so it manages an infection with somewhere around 40% in the two to five year age group and just over 50% in a younger age group under two. And it's a two, two dose vaccine. The Pfizer vaccine is a smaller dose, three micrograms, three doses, and so a bit longer of a process to complete the series. But their group combined efficacy. When they looked at all kids and the child was around 80%. Again, with the caveat that two doses of the Pfizer vaccine did not seem to do well enough to protect and that three doses were needed. But again, we have to remember that because of all the crying and it's a variants, the vaccines were not vaccinating people to prevent mild disease and infection. We're vaccinating to prevent severe outcomes like hospitalisation, ICU stays, death. And we know from the older age groups in children that those are still they're still kids and adults are still well protected with a vaccine against those kind of outcomes, despite lower efficacy and effectiveness against mild disease.

DM: So it sounds like there are some differences between the Pfizer and Moderna, unlike what the recommendation was for adults, which was, you know, get whatever you can. But but let me ask you, I mean, this is the key question a lot of parents are going to be asking. What about safety?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Yeah so that was that for the safety is very comparable between the two. But also what's really good is that it's very comparable to the older age group. So most of the the side effects were the same local reactions, pain, redness at the at side, some irritability and crying, some fatigue, some fever, but nothing, but everything they seemed to be pretty mild to moderate goes away in two to three days, which of course, is a big deal for parents to know that the vaccine is safe.

DM: The you mentioned that you wished that this had come around before Omicron when before children were were ending up in hospital. What kind of illnesses are you seeing in young children because of COVID infection?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: You know, Omicron can really showed us that for some kids, this disease is awful. People talk about, you know, this affecting adults more, which is definitely true. But we're seeing especially with Arnold Klein, we had this wave of paediatric infection and admissions and trips to the emergency department, and a lot of the presentations were respiratory. So people coming in, kids coming in with either upper respiratory croup like presentations. Some kids also had more non-specific symptoms. You know, the fever. They could have some diarrhoea, vomiting, but it's the pneumonia as that ends up. And it puts kids in hospitals as well that lower respiratory infections. And then, of course, we've seen the multi-system inflammation that can follow COVID a few weeks after and across all age groups, especially the older children. The the mental health effects of the pandemic have been significant as well. So this is quite a big burden of infection in children. And you know, what was really fascinating about the FDA, the material that all available online, when they put them forward to the FDA and they it was striking that they compared the burden of hospitalisation and death from other vaccine preventable diseases before those diseases had a vaccine. So they looked at things like chickenpox and, you know, pneumococcus and meningococcal and they looked at, you know, rotavirus, hepatitis and COVID had more deaths and more hospitalisations per 100,000 population per year than most of those with sort of significant burden.

DM: And I mean, that goes against what I would say is just kind of the conventional discussion. I mean, that that kids don't get very sick from this virus. So so what would you say to parents who think that and think that maybe their children have already built up an immunity by being exposed?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Well, I hope they listen to a disinformation session after this, but I wish that was the case. You know, I wish that a lot of our children already had immunity. So somehow I think we failed to communicate to parents that this disease, indeed, can be an awful disease in kids. You know, in in Alberta, some of our colleagues are working at their own centre looking at what we call seroprevalence studies. So they look to see how many kids have antibodies, which is a correlate of protection to COVID and or to SARS-CoV-2. And even if those vaccinated kids, the 5 to 11 40% did not show any immunity to in terms of spike protein antibodies. So there are a lot of kids out there still unprotected even in the groups that vaccination was available. And of course, we have the other five that have not been vaccinated. So this isn't over yet for children, unfortunately. But hopefully parents will have a way for direct protection soon in Canada, too.

DM: Well, you mentioned that. I mean, it's it hasn't been quite the buy in for for parents in terms of of I mean, only 42% of children between the ages of five and 11 are double vaccinated, as I just mentioned. So, I mean, what do you think that number will be in the in the lower age group once the vaccine is available for under fives here in Canada?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Yeah. So we have seen surveys that have looked at this and it seems that and this is Canadian, Canadian surveys, about 30% of parents would be ready to have a vaccine as soon as it was available. Another maybe 11% would wait a little bit. So hopefully, you know, having it available in other places like the U.S. and kind of builds that vaccine confidence even for those people who would wait. So I'm hopeful that, you know, we're looking at some around 30 to 40% of parents ready to protect their kids when it becomes available to Canada. In Canada.

DM: Should we be trying to raise that percentage?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: Yes. I think and, you know, for the last the last two years, this has been something I have thought very hard about. And I think that the main issue that, you know, you hit on was this idea of complacency. The parents don't feel the threat. I am worried a little bit about the timing of the vaccine availability in Canada. Overlaps with summer vacation. That's tough, too. But, you know, parents are really good at thinking ahead. So if you talk to parents right now, they'll tell you that over the last two or three months, their kids have been really sick. And we've seen a lot of respiratory admissions and trips to the emergency department. And in addition to COVID, we're seeing a myriad of respiratory viruses, you know, parainfluenza, influenza, enterovirus, human and animal virus. Many of these are not vaccine preventable. And we don't know how long this wave of infection is going to last in kids. But I worry about about the fall and the winter and the kind of influenza season we're going to have. So I think the parents will protect their kids with this vaccine are the ones who realise that at least when it comes to COVID, there is something they can do to keep their kids out of hospital.

DM: It strikes me, though, I mean, you're talking about the protection for the fall and the winter. I mean, right now, Doctor, life is kind of getting back to normal for a lot of people. So how tough is it going to be to convince parents of the need for this now?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: You know, I think and I'm a firm believer in that you're kind of really convinced in into support them as they make this decision. But I you know, bringing COVID in children back to the to the limelight and reminding parents that this isn't over for the kids yet and that this is a safe vaccine, that they can they can actually give to the children for direct protection against, you know, hospitalisations and severe disease. I mean, that's a big deal to have a young child hospitalised. I'm hoping the parents will, will, you know, reflect on this a little bit and and vaccinate their kids. But it's it's it's going to be a big effort and it's going to be an effort that everybody has to contribute to. And whether that's, you know, media and the health care workers and the right source of information to support parents through this so they can protect their kids so that we don't see, you know, continue to see these little kids coming into hospital and ending up in ICU.

DM: And you said the process is still working its way through here with Health Canada. But but just can you give me a sense. How soon do you think we could get the approvals here in Canada for for vaccines for kids under five?

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: You know, I don't know. Some of the estimates were somewhere before summer. So I'm still hopeful that this is going to come through. I think this the authorisation the U.S. is not going to change the rigour or the, you know, the process that Health Canada goes through. I think it's going to add to vaccine confidence to have the vaccine available. The real world experience somewhere else is has been shown to help parents make the decision for their own child. So I think that's hopefully that will speed the process of getting the vaccine. But so Health Canada would have to approve it or authorise it first. And then we'll see a statement from NACI, which is our own advisory committee on immunisation. And then there will be some provincial recommendations. And of course, the administration of the vaccine is at the provincial level in our country. So that's that's the process that we're looking forward to.

DM: Thank you for walking us through this.

DR. CORA CONSTANTINESCU: It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

DM: Dr. Cora Constantinescu is a paediatrician and an infectious disease doctor at Alberta's children's hospital.

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DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

When you're talking about roughly 3 million adults believing that the roll out of 5G caused COVID, it's not hard to understand anymore why there are so many people who are anti-vax.

DM: Pollster Bruce Anderson was on The Current last week. His company recently did surveys that found large numbers of Canadians believe in COVID conspiracy theories, as well as other false ideas about secret societies controlling our lives and even the murder of Princess Diana. It's no secret that social media has been key to the spread of many of these theories, as well as disinformation, hate speech and other harmful content. Over the past three years, my next guest has been helping to advise the Canadian government on how to address these problems while preserving free speech. Taylor Owen is associate professor at McGill's Max Bell School of Public Policy and co-chair of the Canadian Commission on Democratic Expression, which has recently submitted its recommendations for regulating online spaces to the federal government. Good morning.

TAYLOR OWEN: Morning, Duncan.

DM: Dealing with misinformation, disinformation, hate speech online. It must feel like a huge, overwhelming problem. After working on this commission for three years. What are the most important immediate steps that Canada should be taking?

TAYLOR OWEN: Well, I mean, broadly, there are two approaches to tackling harmful content online. One approach is to take all the bad things that have been said and done on the Internet or on social platforms, which increasingly are the Internet for many people, and to force those platforms or incentivise them to take those down. And that's what a number of countries have done. And it's actually what the Canadian government proposed to do last year. And it it makes intuitive sense because it's the thing we feel and see and it's all the bad stuff. And we know there is a lot of harmful stuff on the Internet and it makes sense to want to make companies take that down. But the challenge is, is that there's just so much of it. Billions and billions of pieces of content a day that it's it's unmanageable to actually do.

DM: It's almost like playing whack a mole.

TAYLOR OWEN: It absolutely is. And it has this other effect that it it means somebody somewhere likely in the government needs to broadly decide what is allowable and what isn't. And and that's, as you mentioned, off the top, that presents some real challenges for all the other sort of the core attributes of the Internet, which is all the free expression that it enables. So we've been working on through this commission and learning from what some other governments around the world are doing, which is this emerging practise of taking a systemic approach to this challenge and saying, instead of playing whack a mole with all these bad pieces of content on the Internet, instead we should place the responsibility on platforms to assess the risk of their products, because ultimately they are giving us the product to consumers on the Internet, assessing the risk of that product, implementing best practises to address that risk, and then opening up their books to show that they're doing that to the public and to regulators overseeing their processes. And that sort of structural, systemic approach avoids many of those free speech issues. But that whack a mole strategy frankly, falls down.

DM: I mean, you've you've argued quite a bit that that focussing less on on on the individual pieces of the harm, the content of those those those racist or or hateful social media posts isn't working. And to focus more, more on the platforms themselves and their content, their incentive structure is what you've talked about. Can you explain that a bit?

TAYLOR OWEN: Well, so, yes, of course, there are individual bad actors who will say bad things and use the Internet to cause harm as as is the case in the physical world as well. The challenge is, is not just that there is a small number of individual bad actors, but it's that certain kind of behaviour and outcome even might be incentivised by the way the platforms themselves are designed. So the platform is designed to to evoke an emotional response to content, for example, that might further divide us as of that opening interview with Bruce Anderson sort of alluded to, if an algorithmic system is entirely opaque to the public and we don't know how it's working or how it's shaping our lives, that prevents some other risk. Perhaps a system that allows adults to reach out to children on the products they use might pose another harm. And that's embedded in the design of what we're allowed to do on those systems instead of focussing on those outcomes, on those on those bad things that are done. If we focus on those incentives, I think we would minimise significant amount of that harm. We will get rid of all of it, just like we can't in the physical world as well. But I think our goal here, if we want to protect free expression and all the amazing things the internet enables, while also minimising that harm has to be this more incentive based, systemic approach.

DM: You've also suggested that that companies that are the tech companies that are releasing new products should be required to conduct a risk assessment assessments. Yeah. So what kind of risks and what kind of levels of assessment are you suggesting?

TAYLOR OWEN: Well, look, I mean, a lot of the responsible companies already do this, like if you're launching a product or you're rolling it out in society. And these are very powerful tools that allow us to do some amazing things. One should also be looking at the potential negative uses or harms that could be caused by that product. We do this in every other sector of our society. There's no reason we can't and shouldn't do it for the Internet. But let's say in rolling out a product and I know it's likely to be used by children, and I know children have some particular vulnerabilities that that should be mitigated against. Like, for example, should adult, clearly adult content be able to be posted on a site that is going to be seen by children? Probably not. So risk assessment might catch that. If I did that risk assessment and I found that risk, then it would be my responsibility as a portfolio to mitigate that risk and to show that I've taken the steps necessary to protect the users or the consumers of my product. Again, just like in any other aspect of our economy. The key here, though, too, and probably the most important part of it is only to demonstrate to the public, to citizens and to probably a regulator that I've done that. And that's going to require a degree of transparency over these systems that we currently don't have.

DM: Well, I mean, we don't the the big tech platforms know everything about us. We don't know much about them and how they operate. And you mentioned the regulators. I mean, do our government agencies really have the skills and capacity to take on a task is so huge as as regulating the Internet.

TAYLOR OWEN: No, not not at the moment, which is part of the challenge. We over time, have built up the regulatory capacity to oversee and ensure the safety of other very complex systems. The development of pharmaceuticals, for example, the food and safety divisions of our government regulators and financial sector. So we can do this. We just, I think now need to do that for these systems to assess the risk and be able to audit, ultimately these systems. And that's going to require building up some regulatory capacity, there's no question but regulatory capacity, very importantly, not to decide what can and can't be said and what and what platforms have to take down, but instead to audit the things the platforms have said they're already doing that they they're mitigating the risk embedded in these platforms. But there's another piece of transparency that's really important, not just showing your books to government to government auditors, but showing citizens how these systems work. And so we think also a whole host of data that's currently hidden and locked inside the black box of these platforms should be made public to citizens. So we know how our data is being used and how our experience online is being shaped, and also to researchers. So they can they can study these systems and understand the really powerful effect they're having on our society.

DM: About 30 seconds left, Taylor, but part of what you've been doing with the commission is holding citizens assemblies with a group of community volunteers who've been selected at random. What do you see as the value of that process right now?

TAYLOR OWEN: Well, there's not a lot of optimism and hope in the space right now. But. But that provided one. I mean, citizens come in thinking they're going to be divided in part on this issue, in part because they're having this debate online, which incentivises division. But you put them in a room together over a course of several months and by the end they agree with each other. We are not as divided as we think we are because we're having this debate in part online. You put citizens in a room from all walks of life together and they actually agree on the governance approach for the Internet. Then broadly, they agree in this model I've just described.

DM: That's an encouraging note to end on. Taylor, thank you very much for sharing this.

TAYLOR OWEN: It's my pleasure.

DM: Taylor Owen is associate professor at McGill's Max Bell School of Public Policy. He is co-chair of the Canadian Commission on Democratic Expression, which has just submitted its recommendations for regulating online spaces to the federal government. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

We are tantalisingly close and now really is the time to go and finish this job once and for all time so that any child anywhere is no longer at risk of this horrendous disease.

DM: Pakistan's fight against polio. That's in 90 seconds. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

Curbing misinformation and hate speech online; and the fight to eradicate polio in Pakistan

Guests: Shahzad Baig, Aidan O’Leary, Karin Marley

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current from being one of the most feared diseases to being nearly eradicated. Polio is now endemic in only Pakistan and Afghanistan. Both countries are making good progress in wiping it out there as well. But a recent surge in infections is threatening to reverse that progress. Dr. Shehzad Baig leads Pakistan's polio eradication programme. We've reached him in Islamabad. Good morning.

SHAHZAD BAIG: Good morning.

DM: Could you tell us first, what's the extent of this recent surge?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yeah. After a no polio case for 15 months, Pakistan has reported in the last two months, in April and May, ten cases. All ten cases are from one districts. And all those cases are within the six kilometre radius. So that is an area where an intense circulation of virus is going on.

DM: Ten cases doesn't sound like a lot. Why? Why is that so concerning?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yeah, we are talking here of an education. Not only the polio cases, but the polio virus. So, first of all, we don't judge success or failure by cases, but the presence and the spread of the virus. But the ten cases went for ten, 15 months Pakistan has not reported any case. So there was a feeling going on then by the momentum that Pakistan is making significant progress, although we are still detecting virus in those areas. One case is too many and we have ten cases.

DM: How sick are these children getting.

SHAHZAD BAIG: For the sickness we need to understand that every child get paralysis and that paralysis is lifelong, permanent. But it does not affect the life of the person who still lives that normal life. Whatever. They help the children's lives but only with the paralysis. So many of these children have one limb paralysis. And [unintelligible] the upper arms are the legs.

DM: What's driving the surge in Pakistan?

SHAHZAD BAIG: So the main reasons for the surge of is that, you know, there is an area where routine immunisation was very low. This is an area where there were security challenges. There was an element of fear, threat from the religious leaders not to vaccinate, threat from the violence and then difficulty to get female in that area. And on top of that, when we got this issue of refusals, and refusals are the refusals which we know them, then there are refusals which are trying to hide from us, and there are the refusals where they can hide with the workers so that they marked them and then don't vaccinate them. So all these factors then combined together, then it becomes a difficult area to deal with.

DM: So lots of different aspects of that. Let me break down a couple of them. I mean, you said that the religious leaders are involved in expressing concerns about vaccination. Why is that?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Because they are religious believes that, you know, this vaccine is not safe. Why to give vaccine when somebody is not sick. You know, you give the treatment when somebody gets sick, why to give it before. Then, there are consequences to this, you know, that it is the Western agenda or something in the vaccine. So there are a lot of apprehension amongst the communities in those areas. Remember, these are the area which are bordering Afghanistan.

DM: You mentioned, I mean, the conspiracy theories about the vaccine somehow violating Islam, I gather. There was actually a fake vaccination vaccination campaign involving the CIA when they were trying to track down Osama bin Laden in this region. How much has that added to this?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yeah. So first of all, that was a fake vaccination, but not polio vaccination campaigns. I think it was some other vaccine which tried to use that. But yes, at that time it has a very negative impact on the populations. It is still in the mind of the people and it is one of the reasons, although the magnitude of this has decreased tremendously.

DM: There have been media reports that that one of the problems is a handful of health care workers who are conspiring with parents and giving them fake proof of vaccination. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SHAHZAD BAIG: So, first of all, we need to understand that why waccinator does that that vaccinator does that. That vaccinator does not do it for money. That vaccinator does it because there is pressure from the community. Now, the question arises, is that why there is a pressure from the community? Because there are some threats from the Taliban's from across the borders that we will be action taken against you if you will allow polio vaccination. So all these factors culminate into that. The community and vaccinators, you know, conniving together, coming up with the solutions so that the programme is also satisfied. And on the other hand, the person who is threatening our organisation, which is threatening, that is also satisfied.

DM: You also mentioned the difficulty of getting women into some of these areas. I mean, it seems that that women are primarily the health care workers who are delivering the vaccine, the polio vaccine. So how much of a challenge is that?

SHAHZAD BAIG: I can tell you that in the other normal districts, we have about 80% of the teams which consist of females. In the North Waziristan, the area where this intense circulation is right now going on. We have less than 1% females in the team.

DM: There have been female polio workers who have been threatened and and in fact, in some cases killed, I understand. And you're having to staff them with with security personnel, is that right?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yeah. In all those areas, every team is escorted by security law enforcement agencies, either police and army. And I want to bring it in on notice that the so far the polio programme has lost 50 lives in the line of duty, 34 of them were the female workers, frontline workers who guard during died during these vaccinations and sixteen were the police personnel is protecting them.

DM: These are people that were trying to deliver vaccines and they were killed.

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yes.

DM: How discouraging is that for you, Doctor? You and your colleagues? I mean, you're trying to to eradicate polio, which is largely around the world, been eradicated. It must be very, very discouraging.

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yes, it should be. But I can tell you very proudly, you know, this is the resilience of the polio workers and, you know, will to fight it, that in most of the cases, even in an area where there is a bomb blast or if there is a shooting or attack on our police personnel after one hour, two hours, even in the same areas, the polio teams go back and start working. So my salute to my frontline workers, that as far as the morale is concerned, you know, they they have never let the enemy succeeded in achieving that goal.

DM: How hard is this job going to be for you, given the bump in cases recently to make sure that it doesn't end up multiplying in the months ahead?

SHAHZAD BAIG: Yeah, it's it's not about the number of cases, because in that area, if there is a virus and there are susceptible children, they are subjected to be infected with the polio. The important thing for us is that, number one, there is a cross-border movement with the population movement with Afghanistan, so that the virus does not go from Pakistan to Afghanistan and spread there. And the second is that it we keep it confined to that area and eradicate it before it goes to the different areas or the big cities. So far, we have succeeded in that.

DM: And you mentioned, I mean, Pakistan was making good progress at that, complete eradication of polio. How would you assess now the chances of that happening?

SHAHZAD BAIG: I think we are still at the same stage. It has not worsened and it has not improved.

DM: Thank you for sharing this information with us.

SHAHZAD BAIG: Thank you. You're welcome.

DM: Dr. Shahzad Baig spoke to us from Islamabad, where he leads Pakistan's polio. Eradication programme. Wild polio is a highly infectious virus, and although Pakistan and Afghanistan are the only remaining countries where it's endemic, the disease is still present in several other countries in different forms. Aidan O'Leary is the director for the Global Polio Eradication Initiative at the World Health Organisation. Good morning.

AIDAN O'LEARY: A very good morning, Duncan, and many thanks for the opportunity to participate in this call.

DM: Thank you for joining us. You had a chance to listen in to Dr. Begg there. What is your reaction to what he had to say about the cases that we just heard about in Pakistan?

AIDAN O'LEARY: So I think the first thing that I would probably highlight is that, you know, in 2021, we had an historic low in terms of the number of wild polio virus cases that were recorded. And clearly, as Shahzad just highlighted, you know, the the what is an explosive outbreak at the moment in North Waziristan is clearly disappointing and a setback in terms of our efforts. But I would kind of emphasise the key points that he's highlighted is that it's really very, very highly localised. And the key point for the programme going forward is how do we actually explore efforts through all avenues to really make sure that we reach those children who've yet been to be vaccinated and protected in the areas where that's required the most. And I think the programme in Pakistan has done an amazing job in bringing the the case count and more importantly, the transmission counts down to historic lows. And clearly, we're doing many, many things right at the moment. But what's going to be really important over the weeks and moments ahead is to make the necessary pivots to make sure that we reach those children through the range of different means that Shahzad has highlighted.

DM: You say it's very localised, but but how real is the possibility that it could spread beyond Pakistan's borders?

AIDAN O'LEARY: So I think the the first point that I would highlight is that, you know, as long as we have transmission anywhere, then we have potentially risks everywhere. And the we've had a situation quite recently where we've had a virus that was being transmitted in Pakistan, has been detected and has caused paralysis initially in Lilongwe, in Malawi and in the [unintelligible] district of Mozambique in southeastern Africa. We've had situations like this before also when we had the transmission beyond the borders of Pakistan into the Middle East, including Syria and Iraq. So the basic point is that, you know, stopping transmission at source, which is what the Pakistan programme is working very, very hard to do, is the key to finishing this job once and for all.

DM: I mentioned in the introduction that the virus still exists in other countries and in different forms. Apart from wild polio, what other form is there?

AIDAN O'LEARY: So the other form is what is or just technically described as circulating vaccine derived polio viruses. And this is where we have a situation where there are live elements of the virus circulates for very, very long, prolonged periods in populations that are either on unimmunised are under immunised and ultimately reverts to a form that results in paralysis. So this are the essentially the other major form of virus that the programme is currently facing.

DM: So vaccine derived polio cases. So let's be clear here. I mean, how are people getting that form of polio? It's not because they've been vaccinated, is it?

AIDAN O'LEARY: Absolutely not. I think the the major challenge that we face is that actually they're unvaccinated, which means that they are unprotected. And I think if we look at the key geographies where we have the major outbreaks of circulating vaccine derived polio virus at this time, it's essentially in areas such as northern Nigeria. It's areas such as south central Somalia. It's areas such as the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. And it's also in northern Yemen. And key characteristics here are the what we would refer to as zero dose children. And this is where we have very high concentrations of children who are unimmunised are under immunised for a whole range of different factors, whether it's inaccessibility, whether it's insecurity, whether it's very, very weak essential immunisation systems. These children simply haven't received the vaccines to be protected. And I think what we've very clearly demonstrated is that once we're able to access these children for vaccinations, the outbreaks are very, very quickly stopped and curtailed.

DM: So you're talking about roughly 12 countries, I understand, that are dealing with these these vaccine derived polio cases. How dangerous is that polio variation compared to wild polio?

AIDAN O'LEARY: So I think we're currently dealing with 12 countries in 2022 and that's obviously down from the high of 30 countries who experienced these outbreaks in 2020. And I think the really important point to note is that as far as children and their families are concerned, there is no difference between the wild polio virus and circulating vaccine derived polio virus in terms of its impact and its are results in essentially lifelong paralysis for which there is no cure. And I think what we really, really strongly encourage is that, you know, we kind of apply the same urgency, the same political will, the same focus to make sure that these outbreaks are closed and addressed as quickly as is possible with all the emergency orientation that is required.

DM: Are there places, are there governments where you're not seeing that political will and urgency for people to be taking this form of polio as seriously as wild polio?

AIDAN O'LEARY: When I mentioned a little earlier, you know, some of the key geographies, you know, in each of these areas, we face a whole host of different challenges. So whether it's inaccessibility or insecurity, whether it's a weak reach of the essential immunisation system, whether it's other competing public health priorities. So for instance, I mentioned eastern DRC at the moment, in addition to tackling circulating vaccine derived polio outbreaks. It's also dealing with a meningitis and a polio outbreak as well as a plague outbreak. So what we really continue to do is to push that we would get the strongest possible response as quickly as possible. If we look at the situation, for instance, in northern Yemen at the moment, this is an area of conflict. It's also subject to, you know, bordering on famine conditions, acute malnutrition. And we've had a major challenge to reach and conduct vaccination campaigns across northern Yemen because we've been unable to secure the agreement and approval of the authorities to proceed with these campaigns at this particular point in time. And obviously, the concern on our side is that, you know, the longer we wait, the more the explosive the outbreak becomes.

DM: You mentioned competing health priority, public health priorities. How has the pandemic affected the global efforts to vaccinate people against both of these forms of polio?

AIDAN O'LEARY: So I think when we had the initial onset of the pandemic, the work of the programme, particularly for our surveillance system and also for the ongoing campaigns, they were suspended for a number of months and obviously that resulted in significant challenges because the immunities profiles of the, you know, the populations where we really need to protect children the most. And that was clearly hampered. But I think, you know, from essentially August, September onwards, in 2020, we saw some very courageous decisions by our governments, by our ministries of health and by frontline workers to fully resume both surveillance activities, but particularly the House to House campaigns in the geographies of critical importance to the programme. And, you know, I, you know, Shahzad leads the programme in Pakistan. But, you know, every time when we talk about conducting a campaign in Pakistan, we are ultimately looking to reach more than 40 million children under five years of age across every single part of Pakistan. So it's not a small undertaking. We clearly had some challenges at the start in terms of getting to the requisite kind of quality levels. But because the work was so started so early and what we were able to do is to build momentum over time, which really started to deliver some of the really great results we saw in 2021 and which were so anxious that we would sustain it through 2022 and beyond.

DM: So understandably hampered efforts in terms of the vaccine efforts with regard to polio, understandably hampered by the COVID pandemic. But but I wonder on the flip side, I mean, have there been lessons learnt in terms of delivering the COVID vaccine? That might help with regard to polio vaccines?

AIDAN O'LEARY: Absolutely. And I think it's the point that you make is an excellent one. And I think one of the things that really came across very, very strongly was the extent to which polio staff, whether, you know, frontline staff, community mobilisers and surveillance staff, laboratory staff were essentially rededicated and repurposed by our national authorities across a range of different countries to support their work, to basically deal with pandemic response in the first instance, but then also with the introduction and delivery of COVID vaccines. I think, again, another excellent example of this and you know, maybe using the Pakistan example again is that there is a very elaborate emergency operation centre infrastructure, which the polio system uses to oversee quite large scale operations in Pakistan, and that was essentially repurposed to support the pandemic response. So whether it was information collection and analysis from more than 8000 union councils in seven provinces or seven provinces across Pakistan, through the coordination of operation response to the necessary accountability and oversight to the top political levels in Pakistan, that infrastructure was a key element in delivering what I think has been described as an exemplar within the region in terms of how the pandemic was handled and managed. So I think it wasn't just a question of learning lessons. I think, you know, the polio programme, its staff, its infrastructure contributed in many ways, in many different forms, in many different countries to really strengthening that response across the board.

DM: Last question for you. I mean, of course, infectious diseases have been top of mind for everyone, whether it's COVID or now the spread of monkeypox. Why should the world still be paying attention to the goal of eradicating polio?

AIDAN O'LEARY: Well, I think it's, again, an excellent question. I think because, you know, ultimately, when we talk about infectious diseases, what we are seeking to do is to bring about, you know, only the second ever human communicable disease ever to be eradicated. And I think as the our director general, Dr. Director, Dr. Tedros highlighted at the recent World Health Assembly, we are tantalisingly close and now really is the time to go and finish this job once and for all time, so that any child anywhere is no longer at risk of this horrendous disease.

DM: Thanks for telling us about this.

AIDAN O'LEARY: Thanks, Duncan. Thanks again for the opportunity.

DM: Aidan O'Leary is the director for the Global Polio Eradication Initiative at the World Health Organisation. We reached him in Geneva, Switzerland. I'm Duncan McHugh and you're listening to The Current. We've received a lot of feedback on a couple of stories that were on the programme last week, particularly one about gender discrimination facing female surgeons in Canada. Some of those women are now speaking out for the first time.

SOUNDCLIP

I just ignored it and took the high road. I'm nearing the end of my career and I just thought if I cannot just fade into the sunset, having gone through all this without bringing the light of day onto it and this is the only way change will get affected is if the light of day is shed on the inequities that women suffer to get to where they are. It's hard enough to do heart surgery, never mind trying to watch your back and somebody is going to attack what you've done.

DM: That was Dr. Theresa Kieser. She is Alberta's only woman, cardiac surgeon. Senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your letters. Karen, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Duncan. Yeah, we got many letters from those who work in the field. Each of the surgeons and residents who wrote and asked us not to use their name on air, which is telling. I think this email is from a woman surgical resident. I am graduating in a few weeks and I cried listening to this episode as so many of these experiences ring true. There is a current belief amongst men in many surgical specialities that sexism in surgery no longer exists because there are more women surgeons. Now, I've heard this exact conversation occur in the O.R., but this fails to recognise that even when women are present, women have to work harder on every front to fit into the culture.

DM: This next woman is also in her final weeks as a surgical resident. She writes, I've been taking shifts in a small town emergency department and essentially running it as if it were my own with appropriate backup from my staff. After seeing a patient, introducing myself and doing the history and physical, I left and returned with the male junior resident with. Me as soon as we were both in the room, all of the questions and I contact from the patient and her husband were directed toward the junior resident. This has happened to me many times before and I honestly felt defeated. But the male resident recognised it too, and he moved over to stand right beside me. And the next time a question was asked, he turned to me to ask me what I thought. This is what we need our male colleagues to do.

KARIN MARLEY: So Mark Robinson from Elliot Lake, Ontario wrote From the patient's perspective, in the late 1980s, I required serious colorectal surgery. I contacted my father, a retired surgeon, for advice around choosing a surgeon. My choice was between a male head of department and quite renowned, or his colleague, a woman. My father asked a few questions and the recommended the woman. His logic was that for her to be in the position she was in, she must be at least twice as good as any man. My surgeries were quite successful and 40 years later I discovered that the surgeon is a recipient of the Royal College's Duncan Graham Award for Outstanding Contribution to Medical Education and is an officer of the Order of Canada. That doctor was Dr. Robin MacLeod.

DM: Good story. Another story on our programme that a lot of people related to was about employers trying to get employees back to work in-person at the office. Jeff Bickerton writes I work for a national union based in Ottawa. We've been required to return to the office after working online from home for most of the pandemic. During the pandemic, we, my work unit, met with our bosses three times a week to coordinate our work. In my opinion, productivity improved greatly, as did our employers knowledge of what was actually being accomplished. In April, we were required to return to work three times a week, and in May this was increased to every day. I now spend 80 minutes per day commuting. When I'm in the office, I often never see anyone as our meetings are still conducted online. There's absolutely no reason why we couldn't arrange a hybrid system involving specified days in the office and other days for potential home working for those who want it.

KARIN MARLEY: So many listeners like the idea of a hybrid form of work. Several people also pointed out the extra time and cost of commuting to work. So Ken Clarke from Winnipeg is a retired manager. He says he believes in work from home even before the pandemic. He wrote, My motivations were in order of importance, environmental impact, efficient use of time and cost reductions. Now we have an opportunity to rethink the mad daily commute. Part of this culture shift, it seems to me, is to compensate people who must, as a job requirement, drive by a bus pass or otherwise commute for work. This is already the case for a salesperson whose costs to get to her various work sites are covered. It should be no different for a person required to commute to a fixed worksite.

DM: And thanks to everyone who wrote in. Thank you, Karen.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

DM: If you missed hearing the conversations we were just talking about, you can find them on the CBC Listen app or on our Web site, cbc.ca /thecurrent. And you can share your own comments by emailing thecurrent@cbc.ca Or on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. And that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. I'm Duncan McCue, back with you tomorrow. Jemmy GURWITCH Thanks for listening to The Current.

The Current Transcript for June 20, 2022

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Canadians taking second jobs, skipping meals to cope with inflation

U.S. approves COVID-19 vaccines for kids under 5

Curbing misinformation and hate speech online; and the fight to eradicate polio in Pakistan

Monday June 20, 2022 Full Transcript

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