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The Current Transcript for June 11, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I don't believe that racism is systemic through Canadian placing. I don't believe it's systemic through policing in Alberta.

MATT GALLOWAY: The deputy commissioner for the RCMP in Alberta seems at odds with the many thousands of people that rode around the world protesting police brutality. In a moment, a look inside the culture of policing from two former officers who know that culture well. Also this morning, it's a mystery that police and many others in Sweden have been wrestling with for decades. Who killed the former prime minister, Olof Palme? Well, yesterday, the Swedish prosecutor said case closed, not so much. And later, pandemic ruined your plans from her summer vacation abroad. How about a staycation?

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Just a matter of waiting now to see if we're going to be able to salvage anything of the season. Beyond that, there's not a lot of hope.

MG: While officials urge Canadians to keep their travel local. Many jurisdictions don't want outsiders. But they also need the tourist dollars. Some summer break advice coming up in half an hour. But we begin with the battle to change the culture of policing in Canada and beyond. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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MG: There is a global conversation happening right now about the roles of police services in Canada. We've been hearing stories of discrimination and racism felt not only by members of the public, but by former officers as well. And police and RCMP leaders are being asked tough questions about current policies and tactics and whether the culture of policing has allowed incidents like these to happen. Alain Babineau served as an RCMP officer for 29 years and retired in 2016. He's now an adviser with the Centre for Research Action on Race Relations in Montreal. Alain Babineau, good morning.

ALAIN BABINEAU: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well. Just briefly, how would you describe police culture in Canada?

ALAIN BABINEAU: But a police culture is particular, I mean, law enforcement is an area where it takes a particular kind of individual to be able to function within it. It's something that's also very so closely guarded. And it's. I call it a total institution. Really, it's like the military is. It's like any kind of organisations where, you know, again, it takes a special kind of individual to to become part of it.

MG: How were you treated as a black RCMP officer?

ALAIN BABINEAU: How was I treated black RCMP officer, I guess. Much like any black individual operating within, you know, a total institution type that thing in terms of the military. I mean, people-- and you got to remember, I joined the RCMP in the early 1990s, so back in those days, I sort of caught the tail end of overt racism. You know, I had older black colleagues that were part of the RCMP much earlier, in the 70s, early 80s, where the use of the N-word would be bandied around quite liberally and, you know, all kinds of things like that. My experience in the RCMP was more of, you know, there were some over, you know, use of the term, but it was more embedded, it was innuendos. Because by then some of the policies had come in place in terms of human rights, in terms of the so-called diversity policies and so on and so forth. So a lot of things were more systemic in nature. Okay. For instance, you know, in terms of, you know, assignments or things like that, people tend to promote or I should say get along with people that think like them, that look like them and so on and so forth.

MG: And so when you talk about assignments, I mean, what do you mean? How is that systemic racism?

ALAIN BABINEAU: It could be courses. It could be promotional opportunities. It could be position on a team or something along those lines.

MG: And people would be passed over specifically because of who they were.

ALAIN BABINEAU: I've seen that. I've seen that happening time and time again in the RCMP, not only to myself, but to others. And, you know, those things are extremely difficult to prove, right? Because there is this sort of, you know, officially there's a policy of advancement. For instance, you know, the first thing I was told when I got on the RCMP after I finished training, you know, listen, you know, you're black, you're Francophone, you're bilingual. My goodness. You're going to go far. So that's the kind of innuendoes that people have automatically. First of all, you got on the job simply because you're black, but now you're bilingual on top of that so doors are going to be magically opening for you. And so those are the kind of things that you live with throughout- Let us just, again, point out. It's not just endemic to the RCMP. Policing in general.

MG: What happens, though, if you speak up in a culture and you say, you know, you've heard the N word being bandied around that you feel as though you're being discriminated against?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Right. Well, it's like again and any other environment, if you if you speak up, then first of all, people don't believe it exists. First in an organisation like the RCMP, obviously the images is paramount. So it's just speak up. Well, then you got to be prepared to back it up. And as I said, unless it's overt, unless it's direct, in which case that they're going to try and, you know, settle, sort of, I would say out of court, out of the eyes of the public with you. But if it's subtle, then you've got to prove your case. And in some instances, it's very, very lengthy, difficult. And people get ostracised.

MG: Ostracised how?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Well, again, people questioned. They label you as a troublemaker or a chronic complainant having a chip on your shoulder, and I've seen officers — black officers — that have gone through their whole career and it really affected their personal lives, to be honest with you.

MG: Yesterday, the CBC is Rosemary Barton spoke with the commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki, around these issues. Have a listen to what she said.

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I have honestly heard about 15 or 20 definitions of systemic racism. And if it refers to an unconscious bias that exists, then we definitely have that in the RCMP and we are not immune to it at all. In any case, and there are times when our members don't act in accordance with our core values, which includes racism.

MG: I should mention, we did ask just being ourselves with the commissioner of the RCMP. What do you make of her admission that there's unconscious bias within that force?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Well, sometimes when using the term unconscious bias makes it sound like, you know, sort of gives a pass or at least get people off the hook.

MG: What would you have wanted her to say instead?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Oh, well, the recognition of systemic discrimination. I think we're at an age now where, you know, I think it should be recognised. But she's not unique. I mean, you know, I mean, many administrators, in fact, you know, the premier of Quebec said doesn't even exist. Now, I think there's misunderstanding often is between the words systemic in the word systematic. So if you talk about something that's systematic, well, it kind of gives the idea that it's done on purpose and it's done deliberately and it's done with a goal in mind. When you look at systemic, you're talking about a series of practises, policies a way of doing things, either formal or informal, that over time have embedded the organisation and the way of operations, and the way of doing things within that organisation. So people, I think, simply do not understand what it means. And know they're trying to come up with their best definition for a third day of this sort of analysis.

MG: What is it like to be a black cop, do you think, right now? You retired four years ago. But in this moment, what do you think it's like?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Well, two things. First of all, it provides a safe space for officers to actually speak out about racism and discrimination, which, you know, and which never existed before, you know. And so that's a good thing. But at the same time, particularly in an organisation where there are very few black officers, then you have the weight of the world on your shoulder. I remember the days when, you know, during the Rodney King era when I was a young officer back then and I was part of the public order unit in public publicly. But I was in Toronto at the time and we had to protect the the the embassy there. And, of course, you know, you get questioned by your colleagues in all kinds of innuendos. Again, innuendos that that are that are, you know, bantered about. So it's tough right now for officers and black officers because of what's happening. And people will question the legitimacy of of the whole movement and say, well, it's happening in United States. We don't have that here. And so on and so forth. But at the same time, I would encourage black officers to speak out, because there's no sensible organisation out there that's going to punish you for speaking out about discrimination. It raises and begins the doors wide open. Conversations happening.

MG: Just before I let you go. I mean, in the last couple of seconds that we have, do you think that this moment will change police culture?

ALAIN BABINEAU: Well it better. I mean...

MG: But will it?

ALAIN BABINEAU: I mean, we'll see what happens. You know, I'm always willing to trust, but, you know, I also want to verify. So, you know, we'll see what happens.

MG: Alain Babineau, it's good to speak with you. Thank you for your time.

ALAIN BABINEAU: Thank you very much for having me.

MG: Alain Babineau is a former RCMP officer, now an adviser with the Centre for Research Action on Race Relations in Montreal. Over the years, many officers have shared stories like Alain Babinaea's in black and indigenous communities say that over-policing and excessive force are all too common. Lesley Bikos is a former police officer and a researcher studying police culture across Canada. She has insight into why these problems persist and why police leaders can be reluctant to talk about them. Because good morning to you.

LESLEY BIKOS: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. How common do you think experience like Alain's are within police forces across this country?

LESLEY BIKOS: Well, what I can say from my own research, which involves a national survey and interviews with officers across the country, and although I can't generalize those findings, I have over approximately 850 voices within this study. And what I can say is there's definitely some common themes that have emerged. And while you were doing that interview, I was nodding my head along with what he was saying, because I've certainly heard those things in myself within the network I've been doing.

MG: What are those common themes that emerged so.

LESLEY BIKOS: Things around police culture that were traditionally a part of police culture, when we look at the research on police culture. So this idea of hypermasculinity, you know, paramilitary, us versus them, meaning, you know, the police insular culture versus the public that can become quite toxic, could also have a positive impact as well. But when it's toxic, it's toxic. That loyalty and secrecy and that fear of reporting and that comes down. I've heard about fear of reporting non-stop, whether that be mental health because the feeling of it being seen as a weakness and the stigma and fear around that. I have heard from officers — women, Black, Indigenous officers of colour — who have been afraid to come forward to talk about things such as discrimination that they experienced. And the thing is, you could argue that for some officers, these things were perception. But I also have officers in my work that did try, you know, did try to report things, whether that's misconduct of other officers, whether that's their own personal experiences of discrimination and harassment within the policing service. And some of them have done so quite publicly, but they are examples of that retaliation. So that's part of the problem of how do you shift it, because you have examples of officers who have tried to come forward who do experience sometimes extreme professional and personal implications for trying to speak out and trying to do, quote unquote, the right thing.

MG: Well, it might be valuable in this briefly, just to kind of define if we're talking about systemic racism in policing, what do we actually mean? The commissioner of the RCMP was asked about this yesterday that Rosemary Barton said that she's heard 15 or 20 different definitions of systemic racism and that she's trying to figure out what that actually means in some ways. What does it mean?

LESLEY BIKOS: Well, yes, I heard that. And I'm at a loss really to, you know, of how to respond to that. I don't know. I'm not surprised that it is disheartening. There has been so many examples given in all kinds of ways, whether that's reports by indigenous and black, people of colour and their experiences with police. There's been inquiries. There's been commissions. There's the missing and murdered indigenous women work. There's the street check and carding work that went across Canada. Others, Thunder Bay, who the [unintelligible] police oversight body found in their findings that there was indeed systemic racism against indigenous communities that live in that area by that police service. Just decades of evidence. And at what point you have to ask yourself, at what point does this become wilful in terms of how at this point, as a police leader, do you not understand these things? And that's part of I think the problem. Policing seems to be very reluctant to talk about issues of race, to engage in issues about race. Even in my own study, it was really interesting. I ask a lot of really tough questions around experiences in the culture. And some people were very forthright and admit, you know, we're willing to talk about race. But I noticed it was one of the questions that was very hesitant and was very charged. And I think that is sort of the problem in the police community, is there's this feeling like if we admit that this exists, then. Oh, right. This is a massive problem and we can never get out from under that. But it's very ironic because that is exactly what is needed.

MG: Well, in the face of not admitting it, you'll also often hear this is just that the phrase is a few bad apples.

LESLEY BIKOS: Oh, my goodness.

MG: OK. Let's pick up on that. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

LESLEY BIKOS: Yes. So there's some common some common theme to the policing community likes to use rather than sort of confront these issues straight on. So we get the justifications and the defensiveness. We get the bad Apple argument, rageous individual officers versus the systemic structural nature. We did that outright denials and we get, you know, it's not racial profiling. It's good police work. And often what we're not as bad as the U.S. In all of these are problematic in their own right. And like I said, it comes down to reputation, reputation above all else, because I think what has happened is, of course, public trust and confidence in the police makes up police legitimacy and their power and their authority. And I think sometimes the administrations, the police leaders get their heels dug in, feeling like if they admit that things like racism is occurring, you know, sexual harassment, discrimination, all these things going on. If they admitted that somehow they lose some of that power and authority or impact their legitimacy in public eyes. Some way, but again, it's the first step is to, you know, to actually admit it, and if you look at the historical creation and roots of policing in this country, you can see very clear threads as to how systemic racism in policing remains.

MG: What happens if you speak out if you're an officer? And I ask you this as somebody who's studied this, but also as a former police officer, if you speak out about racism or sexism or homophobia. What happens?

LESLEY BIKOS: Well, there's a range of different things that can happen. I've had in the work that I've done, there's been one or two officers that felt as though it went relatively well. But on the whole, the vast majority that I spoke to either had experienced or seen other officers that had tried. And, you know, there's a lot of things that can be hard to prove, isn't there? So, you know, suddenly you're not getting that promotion or those opportunities that you thought were yours aren't coming up. Sometimes complete ostracization from your peers, labelled as a rat. You're not you're not trustworthy anymore. And policing relies on trust. So if you're not trusted by your unit or your leadership, then you're out. And being out of that dominant group in that kind of environment can have real implications. And I have officers in the work I've done that had severe mental health, even off on leave right now for these issues, officers who have reported that they call for backup and didn't receive it. Now, that is rare because I don't want to make it look like that's going on everywhere. But I certainly had it reported and it has come up in other studies in Canada done. So it can have real, you know, really important implications. And of course, the biggest implication there is it creates this culture of fear. And if you can't have officers speaking out and reporting the things that are going on, because they are the ones that see it the most, right there on the ground, they know what's going on, then how do you shift it.

MG: In her interview yesterday, the commissioner of the RCMP said that the forces is open to review and committed to doing better. Do you believe that you can change, just in the last couple of minutes that we have, can you change policies, run policing if you don't change the culture that you've been describing?

LESLEY BIKOS: No culture will eat policy for breakfast. You can't just- this is- this is something that will be so hard to shift, and I'm not even I'm not convinced you could even shift it from the inside part of the problem that I hear from officers and even just in other research. And you hear other people saying is that this internal investigation processes is very problematic. Now, whether that the police service is investigating their own incidents or other police services investigating for police services, are oversight bodies having questions and concerns around them and their level of objectivity and the lack of power in chief. They have all of these things kind of come together to make that culture really hard to shift, because if things are being done internally, sometimes they get buried. And we've seen that. We've seen reports of that. We've seen commissions. We've seen enquiries. We've seen, you know, officers reporting and saying, hey, I came forward all these times and nobody did anything. And the other problem there is that even if they are, the other offending officer is found guilty, what is the consequence for that? Those can be uneven, you know, and often, again, these things can be hidden and protected because of this idea of reputation above all else.

MG: Lesley, it's great to speak with you about this. Your insight is important. Thank you.

LESLEY BIKOS: Thank you.

MG: Lesley Bikos is a former police officer. She's also a PhD candidate in sociology at Western Universiy. Thoughts on this? This has been a conversation we've been having over the last few weeks, certainly, and longer than that, but certainly more concentrated than the last few weeks. You can reach us through the Web site at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. The news is next, then: it's almost summer's vacation time. I know we're in the midst of a pandemic, but it's still looming. What will you do. Can't travel abroad. Perhaps a staycation. But that's complicated as well. What summer tourism is facing under COVID. That's coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current CBC Radio One.

COVID-19 and the hit to tourism within Canada

Guests: Matthew MacKay, Terry Rysz, Charlotte Bell

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. Mask. Cheque. Gloves. Cheque. Hand sanitizer. Cheque wipes. Cheque. If that list has gotten a little shorter recently. You're not alone. Coming up, some of us are slipping when it comes to COVID precautions. We'll talk about caution, fatigue. But first, pandemic tourism.

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MG: Spent that time of the year when many of us escaped from the stress of our regular lives for a much deserved vacation and 2020 has been a year for the books when it comes to stressors. While international travel is a no go. What about exploring your own backyard? That's what the federal government wants, at least so much so that they're pouring some 30 million dollars into keeping us domestic. Now, what counts as your backyard is up for debate, which leaves some popular destinations worried about what this season will bring? Matthew MacKay is Prince Edward Island's minister of tourism minister. Good morning.

MATTHEW MACKAY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Full disclosure here was musing about the idea of coming down PEI for part of the summer. Obviously, I don't think that's going to happen. What's the status with visitors to PEI? Are people welcome on the island?

MATTHEW MACKAY: Well, where we're at right now, we're doing it in different phases, Matt. So we're we're doing our seasonal residents first, which started on June 1st with some application side of it to get into the province with having a plan in place and a 14 day self isolation period. And secondly, we're looking at Atlantic Canada bubbles that would involve Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island. So as of right now, that's where we're at.

MG: How does that work? And I want to talk about that bubble in a moment. But for people who aren't in Atlantic Canada, you just turning people away from the bridge?

MATTHEW MACKAY: Right now we are, yes, so what we've done over the last couple of months is mitigate our bridge and our borders. It's right now we're going through our different phases. So one day at a time, we've been probably built, I believe, approximately 40 days without a case of COVID in PEI. It's been a challenge, but we've done relatively well and now we're slowly easing back and do a bit of a local economy.

MG: You talk about the economy, what sort of economic impact is this going to have on your province this summer?

COVID's been devastating, especially on the tourism side for the province. Last year was 505 million dollar a year. We had 1.6 million visitors. It was a record breaking year. 90 days ago, we were on pace of another record breaking year. We had our marketing plan and everything was looking good and cold. COVID hit. And what I can say, it's been devastating for tourism here in PEI.

MG: You must have gained this, you are at five 505 million dollars last year, what fraction of that do you think the province would bring in this year?

MATTHEW MACKAY: I don't have them exact numbers in front of me. I think it's in the proximity of 70 million now. Yeah, it's huge. It's huge.

MG: And that's not just that's not just an obviously big tourism providers. I mean, these are small, beebees and people who are working in and around that tourism industry that would be clobbered by this.

MATTHEW MACKAY: Definitely so. With a population of a 150,000 people, we have approximately 2900 businesses as well as approximately 1900 rentals. So it's going to affect in the vicinity of 4500 - 5000 operators.

MG: So what is the Atlantic bubble that you were talking about?

MATTHEW MACKAY: Well it's been discussed with the Atlantic premiers. They had a conversation as of yesterday again. So what it looks like is, is that the Atlantic Canada regions, Nova Scotia, Brunswick, Newfoundland, PEI to be able to tour the provinces without going into 14 days of self isolation. So it's a way that would give us obviously nowhere close to our 1.6 million visitors we need. But it would certainly give us a little path forward that we might be able salvage a bit of the tourism season.

MG: How do you do that and ensure that the public health concerns that you raised and the fact that you've kept a pretty good lid on covered thus far, that that lid doesn't come off? They've tried this in some of the Baltic states in Europe, but there are all sorts of health concerns there around this idea as well.

MATTHEW MACKAY: Definitely. Definitely. So the public health office has done a tremendous job here in Prince Edward Island. Dr. Morrison has been phenomenal in keeping all islanders safe. I know they've got a plan in place now that they're working on. She's very confident it can work. I've asked lots of questions on it to this point. And she's very confident that with some protocols in place that we're going to be able to control it, mitigate the risk and hopefully get to a bit of economy.

MG: Without a 14 day quarantine. You're confident that someone could come in from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick can not quarantine, but that wouldn't be a public health risk.

MATTHEW MACKAY: That's right.

MG: What happens if things go sideways? I mean, if cases start to appear that do you have to pop the bubble and go back into, you know, isolation for the province?

MATTHEW MACKAY: Definitely. So it's going to be totally watched. And if it looks like there is any risk or are any new cases at any given point, we can go back to where we were in and shutting the bridge and our borders down. It's it's going to be a challenge. There's no doubt about it. And that's why we're going on an easy stages. First stages. Like I say, we started with the seasonal residences. But as long as that goes relatively well, we'll get to the second stage of Atlantic bubble and then see what the remainder of the year looks like after that.

MG: What sort of pressure are you facing to get this right? Because we talked about the amount of money that's going to evaporate from that economy, at least temporarily. You could imagine that there are people in the province who are saying, listen, this is about our livelihoods. We'll lose our business unless people show up here. How do you strike the balance between public health and ensuring that the economy doesn't completely crater in the long term?

MATTHEW MACKAY: It's been a challenge. And all along, all of our decisions for the province has been health as number. There's a number one issue and we can't lose sight of that. That's why we can't rush back. We we've got to do it in stages. But at the end of the day, health still got to be our number one priority because all islanders here have to have gone above and beyond and done what they were supposed to do to get us to the point we were at. And we've got to make sure we don't jeopardise that. But at the same time, we need to start open the economy up. It's really been devastating for a lot of industries. Tourism is one, the fishing industry lobster season has been affected drastically here as well due to the lack of exports going. And also our agriculture industry is is being affected as well. So it's going to take some time, but we need to do it in a steady, slow process and keep help in mind at all times.

MG: Just finally, before I let you go, what's your message for folks on Prince Edward Island about vacationing this year? If if they travel out of province, do they have to self isolate for 14 days when they come back?

MATTHEW MACKAY: No. So as long as they're travelling, from my understanding, I haven't got all the details from the public health office. But my understanding is as long as the Atlantic Canada bubble, when it starts that it's sticking within them provinces, they don't need to self isolate. There's lots to explore in PEI, even, our island will just be starting a bit of a staycation. That is, we're trying to promote. We've got so many beautiful destinations here that I should have access to and tour around and as well to everyone that travels from away, even though you cannot get here yet. We certainly look in the future and hopefully soon to be able to have you on arterials are our number one market. 44 percent of our industry comes from Ontario. So when the time is right and the health is in, everybody's safe. We can't wait to welcome you back.

MG: Can't wait to be there. Minister, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

MATTHEW MACKAY: Thanks for having me.

MG: Matthew MacKay is Prince Edward Island's minister of economic growth, tourism and culture. Most of Atlantic Canada may have their borders all but completely closed to visitors, at least for now. But tensions are growing in other parts of this country, where regulations are perhaps a little. Foggier and fuzzier. This week, the Toronto based Web site blogTo shared an article on Facebook about planning day trips out of the big city. And the comments came fast and furious. One person writing: Stop encouraging people to travel to communities that have minimal to no coronavirus. Others were a little more direct with: Stay home. We don't want you to stay away. Torontonians similar tensions have been popping up further west. Jennifer Grey lives in Golden B.C., but has Alberta plates on her car.

SOUNDCLIP

My mother in law's car that we're using for a little while and I went grocery shopping on Friday just before the long weekend. When I came back out with groceries, there was a Post-it note under driver's window that said 'go home'. To be honest, I have driven the Alberta registered car since that, you know, I don't want this car to be scratched or damaged by any anyone.

MG: Terry Rysz, the mayor of Sicamous, B.C., that's about 200 kilometres south west of Golden in the beautiful northern Okanogan Valley. Mayor Rice, good morning.

TERRY RYSZ: Good morning.

MG: When you hear Jennifer Grey story of getting a note on her car that says go home because the car had Alberta plates on it. What goes through your mind?

TERRY RYSZ: All right. Yes. So we've posted on Facebook as well a message, it's been quite concerning. In our opinion, this has been a tri factor issue. So first off, that it's economic and then now it's been jurisdictional animosity. And that's been created because in our community, we have a lot of seasonal residents and they are from all over. I mean, we have people here from Saskatchewan and Alberta and of course, from the Lower Mainland and whatnot that have homes here. And second, most so, of course, these people want to come to their summer homes here. And so that's created a bit of an issue.

MG: Do you think they're welcome? The premier of B.C., John Horgan, says that he's hoping to lift the law, that the non essential travel bans locally. And you're saying that the B.C. tourism season is going to mean you're going to be staying home in some way. So you think people are welcome if they're travelling into your community?

TERRY RYSZ: Well, you know, we do for that message to, you know, our health officer, Dr Bonnie Henry, and, of course, Premier Hagen and Adrian Dix, minister of health and so forth. But, you know, our economy here and seculars, we're halfway between Calgary and Vancouver and of course, just west of Golden and Revelstoke. And I mean, it depends on tourism. I mean, that's our lifeblood. And so it's a very difficult thing for myself being the mayor in order to tell people to stay away. But, you know, we have followed the provincial guidelines to a tee. But at the same time. When we posted that message, we're people not place. We're trying to get the message across, especially to our locals, that regardless of who gets out of a car and what colour their licence plates, you know, you're supposed to be respectful to that person and be kind to that person. And it doesn't matter. I mean, this is about being calm, being kind and being respectful. And we were concerned about the bullying aspect, like what happened in Golden, another little community here west of Alberta.

MG: Are you hearing those stories? A lot of mean? Anecdotally, we've heard stories of people getting nasty notes, getting their cars keyed if they have Alberta plates on. Are you hearing those sorts of things as well?

TERRY RYSZ: Yeah, you know what? We're hearing it. And that's been our concern. And we we're trying to, you know, kerb this at this particular stage because we don't want that happening here. We haven't had an incident that I know of in six moves at this stage. You know, I have to say that the people in this little community have been very respectful for the better part. We just don't want to see it happening. And I don't want to see it happening here. I mean, we love having visitors come to our community and we want them to continue to feel safe here regardless. So you don't want to make assumptions when you see somebody get out of a car whether or not they've been here for a central trial, essential travel or not. I mean, and at the same time, let's face it, we did not close up the highways, east, west, the south from our community. So, I mean, people have still the opportunity to travel if they so wish. So we don't want to see animosity being build up based on some actions that we might take care of that are like the situation in [unintelligible].

MG: Deborah Kellar co-owns a restaurant in Radium Hot Springs. Leo Burrito. And she put a new sign out front. It says, Welcome back, Alberta. Have a listen to Deborah.

SOUNDCLIP

People were coming in or they were phoning in and saying, do you have an issue with Albertans? And we were like, no, of course not. So they were like, wow, it's really nice to see them welcoming us back. I think it's just some of those people that are just paranoid. I would have to say they're the older community, the older folks who've lived here for a long time because this is a tourist place and we need the Albertans.

MG: Terry Rysz, you were saying that you need the unburdens interest in terms of tourism. Is that the kind of welcome that you want to see more of?

TERRY RYSZ: Yes, of course. I mean, I got a call from the mayor from La Duke your yesterday and we talked about this and he just basically said, are we safe to come back to your community? I said, absolutely. I said I look quite sure what the media is telling you in Alberta. But you know what? Those we're people. Were not a boat licence plate. So, I mean, you're welcome to come here. I mean, up the end of the day, we're waiting for the announcements from the provincial government to to welcome people back. And we make this message, of course. I mean, we're saying, OK, if you have the summer quadrature, based on what we're being told and advised by the provincial health officer not to come at this particular stage, that so we're deferring that message from the province. But by all means, you're still welcome in our community. I don't want you to feel like we're angry because you come here. That's not the case. So this is about People, we're going to be kind to you. We're going to be respectful to you. It's not about your licence plate.

MG: People not plates. Terry Rysz, good to speak with you. Thank you.

TERRY RYSZ: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Terry Rysz is the mayor of Sicamous, British Columbia. Charlotte Bell has been listening in, president and CEO of the Tourism Industry Association of Canada. Charlotte, good morning.

CHARLOTTE BELL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let's talk about that animosity first. What are you hearing about that? Again, anecdotally, you hear these stories of people with, you know, plates from out of province and they get a stern look or worse. Are you hearing these stories?

CHARLOTTE BELL: I've heard the same stories as you've just highlighted. So not terribly surprising, to be honest. When you think that Canadians have been hearing a consistent message for months. You know, stay home or you might get very sick or even die. So. And people have been in lockdown for quite some time then. And Mayor Rysz is right. You know, there are some people who are feeling a little bit paranoid.

MG: How grim is it for the tourism sector in this country right now?

CHARLOTTE BELL: It's a very dire situation. As you know, you know, tours was the first test and very hard hit. And I think it's going to be the sector that's going to take the longest to recover. And we have a lot of businesses that are closed at this time and an incredible amount of uncertainty in terms of border closures even within the country. And, of course, the international borders are all closed. So that is just devastated the industry.

MG: And so Canadians who have been in lockdown for, what, 13 weeks now and are going stir crazy, they want to get out if they can. And we're being encouraged to look at a staycation, to travel in your own backyard. Is that going to make up for the loss that the tourism sector is facing when, to your point, borders are closed and people can't come in from abroad?

CHARLOTTE BELL: Now, you know, it's going to help and certainly we're appreciative of the funds that are being devoted to Market Canada and to encourage Canadians to explore their own backyard. I'll tell you that [unintelligible] Board of Canada did a survey a couple of weeks ago, and 46 percent of Canadians said they were planning to take a summer holiday and most of them were planning to do it in Canada. So I think that that is encouraging. But again, there are so many, there are different rules within the provinces and territories. So it's a bit of a maze to figure out what's open. Where can you go? What can you do? Do you have to go in quarantine?

MG: Melanie Joly is the federal minister of economic development. And she told us yesterday that her message to Canadians is to follow local public health advice. But to your point, that's different in different parts of the country. Listen to Melanie Joly.

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In parts of the country like the Great North. Even though there's no cases where we need to be careful because we need to make sure that we protect the capacity of the health systems. And that's why there is no possibility of travelling to the territories. In certain places, like Saskatchewan, for example, well, travel restrictions within the province have been let down. Well, it is not necessarily the case in Ontario. And that's how we've dealt as a country for 150 years because we are a federation, but also linked to the fact that provinces have jurisdiction over their own territory and own health advice. We are trying to make sure that there is support for the tourism industry and there is support for people working in it. But we are very much aware that this will be an ongoing challenge and we need to make sure that we collaborate to meet that challenge.

MG: Charlotte Bell, I think a lot of people, to your point, are just confused about what they can and can't do. How difficult is it for the industry when the messages are different, depending on where you live or where you might want to travel?

CHARLOTTE BELL: Well, exactly, I mean, it is it is very challenging. I can tell you, even outside of the Canadian borders, there is pent up demand. In Europe, for example, and in several countries, I'm hearing from our travel trade industry saying, you know, there is demand from Germany and France and we're having to tell people, you know, we can't take your business right now because we just don't know. So there is definitely a lot of confusion. I was very encouraged by hearing the minister of Tourism, Minister Mackay, this morning saying that the Atlantic provinces are considering a travel bubble amongst those provinces. I think that is certainly encouraging news. And I think we have to do a better job also as an industry and government working together to get the message out and tell people, here's what you need to do. It is safe to travel. Here are some guidelines. The industry has put very, very robust protocols in place, the airports, the airlines, the hotels, attractions. And I think we have to work together. And that's what we're calling on government to work with us so that we can get those messages out and rebuild consumer confidence.

MG: So that's the other part. People may not want to travel. The rules are complicated, but they also might not just want to go and stay in a hotel or an Air B&B or a bed and breakfast or get on an aeroplane or rent a car because they have no idea about the cleaning protocols and whether it's actually safe or not. How can you encourage Canadians or how can the industry encourage Canadians to believe that it's safe?

CHARLOTTE BELL: You know, I think that, again, I think it's partly perhaps more of a PR issue on our end to get that message out, to make sure that people know where to get that information. Also, it's all over industry websites. If you go on Air Canada or West WestJet or the Hotel Association of Canada, they have posted all of that information. Our own Web site also posts that information. But I think that we probably need to do a better job of getting the word out to make sure that Canadians know what those safety measures are. We've had experience doing this before, as you know, in terms of rebuilding confidence, you know, following SARS and following 9/11. So this industry can has proven that it can be nimble and it can adapt very quickly to those changing circumstances. And we take it very, very seriously.

MG: I'm sure you do, in part because and we just have a couple of minutes left. You take it seriously because this is an existential threat for many of those tourism operators. We heard that about what's happening on PTI. We heard it in Sicamous. How concerned are you that if this doesn't work out and people don't decide to travel in their own backyard, that some of those people in the tourism sector could find themselves out of the sector because the business isn't going to be there and the business will collapse?

CHARLOTTE BELL: Well, that's already happening. And the longer this goes on, of course, more businesses are at risk. This is the high season. You have to remember, summer is the high season for tourism. And so the longer people are out of business or they can't reopen their business because either there's not the demand or they just they just can't do it. They don't have the liquidity to stay in business. And you're going to see a lot of businesses disappearing. And we've already lost in March and April about 900,000 jobs in the tourism sector. This sector is you know, it supports one point eight million Canadian jobs, and that's almost half of those jobs that already disappeared in a couple of months. So it's a very, very precarious situation and it needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed with dialogue between the industry, the federal and provincial governments for a coordinated approach.

MG: In a word or two, what would your advice be to Canadians who aren't sure what to do?

CHARLOTTE BELL: I would say you need to get informed and do a little bit of research and find out what the measures are in place to keep you safe, because the measures are there. The industry is taking your safety and your health very seriously. But do your homework, certainly, before you leave. And I think that will probably help give you a better sense of security as you decide to go out and explore.

MG: Charlotte, thank you.

CHARLOTTE BELL: Thank you.

MG: Charlotte Bell, president and CEO of the Tourism Industry Association of Canada. What are your plans for the summer? It's here almost. And yes, we've been in lockdown for a long time. Maybe you are stir crazy and you need to get out. Are you travelling this summer? Why or why not? You can let us know through the web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Find us on Facebook or Twitter. We're @TheCurrentCBC and if you're part of the tourism industry and you're facing that existential crisis that we heard about, how are you coping with that with tourists not coming to your bed and breakfast perhaps or your restaurant. Let us know. cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. In 90 seconds, have we begun to lose interest in Colvard precautions? This has dragged on for a long time and there is something called alarm fatigue that is beginning to set in. Maybe you aren't using the hand sanitiser as much or putting on the mask as much. We'll talk about that coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

‘Alarm fatigue’ may be the reason you’re washing your hands less; Investigating the cold case death of Swedish PM Olof Palme

Guest: Andrew Petrosoniak, Jaqueline Gollan, Goran Bjorkdahl

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Most of Canada has started to move towards second or third stages of reopening, but as things reopen, will people keep up with public health guidelines? A psychological phenomenon known as alarm or caution fatigue could be causing people to let their guard down. Toronto's Rosalin Krieger says she knows that feeling well.

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For the first six weeks, I was a diligent hand washer, no exaggeration. I was washing my hands like you're supposed to at least eight to 10 times a day. Now, I maybe wash my hands the way you're supposed to, maybe one to two times a day. And sometimes I honestly forget entirely. I think it's just the fatigue. I was committed to it the first six weeks, but now I would have to say emotionally exhausted.

MG: That sense of exhaustion is familiar to many people across this country. Even doctors on the front lines. Dr Andrew Petrosoniak is a an emergency physician at St Michael's Hospital in Toronto. Jacqueline Gollan is a psychologist at Northwestern University Medical School. Good morning to you both.

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Good morning.

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Jacqueline, what is caution, fatigue?

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: Caution fatigue occurs when people show low motivation or they have low mental or physical energy to comply with the safety guidelines because they feel tired of being cautious or fearful, they may become impatient with safety precautions or they don't believe that precautions are real or relevant. And as a result, they may deemphasize the actual risk when they don't take the precautions. So they may end up outweighing the risk of the situation for their health, of their health benefits to pursue connexion or normal routine. And they become less attentive or motivated to take those precautions, like washing hands or social distancing.

MG: You could imagine a lot of people listening were nodding along with what Rosalin Krieger was saying about handwashing. How common do you think this is?

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: I think it's very common. It is sort of part of our general response generally or more adapting to stress. So I think it's quite common.

MG: Doctor, you wrote a thread on Twitter about this. You called it alarm fatigue. Where does that term come from?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Yeah, I mean, that that term is very similar to what Jaqueline outlined at basically borders on the same themes that when we get alarms and hear the same thing every day or see the same type of alarm over time, we become desensitised to what that alarm is supposed to indicate. And so we see that in medicine where alarms go off or blood pressures that are too low or oxygen saturations that are too low. And if that keeps happening, we as clinicians become desensitised to that, meaning we don't respond. We don't have that same reaction that we should. And then go attend to whatever needs to happen.

MG: How concerned are you - you talked about this in the Twitter threat - how concerned are you about Canadians falling into this pattern?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Well, I mean, I think it's I think it's inevitable. So I don't know that it's a matter of concern or not. I think that this is a predictable pattern. And so rather than I think we just accept that this is likely. And then we start to design aspects of our lives to overcome that so that we don't have to, so that we are very clear with what needs to be alarmed and what doesn't.

MG: I think, again, anecdotally, there are a lot of us who are agreeing that, you know, the things we did three months ago, we aren't doing as much anymore. Whether it's, you know, pumping the hand sanitizer on or making sure that you're, you know, cleaning the hand the doorknob or the railing in the house because you've been up and down at a few different times. What are you seeing in the hospital? Are you seeing the sort of fatigue play out in your workplace?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: So it's interesting. So, I mean, I wear a face shield and a mask and gloves for all interactions with all patients. But so what's happened is, is that's become a habit for me. So I've been able to, that's just how I work now and so do my colleagues. But admittedly, I'll certainly walk into a role and I'm less cautious than I was three months ago when the risk I perceived the risk to be higher. I mean, I put on the gown all every time unless I'm having that patient interaction. And so I'm more likely to pull down my face mask or things like that. So for sure, this is something that affects I'm certainly not immune to it.

MG: And you realise that as you're doing it, you understand that this is what's happening is as you're not putting the gown on, perhaps?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Yes, it's interesting whether it's a subconscious effect or something that as Jacqueline alluded to, it's just this chronic stress we're under. We may briefly consider it, but then it's just too overwhelming to keep being on this, you know, in the fight or flight state.

MG: Jacqueline, what's going on - not to analyse Andrew - but what's going on in his brain for hours when we're doing this?

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: Numerous things, Andrew you've got a fantastic brain, I'm sure. The point here is that we adjust to the information to reduce our stress. So we feel that we have perceived control. And really what we're doing is balancing fear, which we cannot be in a high state of intense fear at all times. And we must feel like we're a little bit more of control. So we try to gain some control or confidence to confront the situations that may have really initially scared us. So we begin to underestimate the actual threat in order to move into situations that we originally had assessed as highly stressful. There's also a couple of other things, I think, in the context of outside, where we see people getting tired of making complex decisions. They require a lot of brain energy and we get tired about making those decisions about what is a risk, what's worth the reward, for example? Is it risky going to the grocery shop? No, it will be rewarding getting the things we want from that place. And there's also another component, which is risk compensation. Like doing things that are risky, assuming that other people have taken risk precautions, safety precautions. And so we downplay the risks because everybody else is wearing a mask. I don't need to really pay attention to that.

MG: So what is it then? And I think a lot of us feel that emotional exhaustion that that Rosalin talked about in that you just articulated, what is it that our leaders and our public health officials should be saying about risk in order to make sure that people understand it correctly? The virus is still out there. The risk is still there. So what should they be saying so that we can at this point in this pandemic, interpret that risk properly?

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: I think the leaders could be seeing a clear message that even though initially you may have felt energised and focussed on following pandemic safety behaviours, you may now start to feel tired or see the negative aspects of this and try to stay physically and mentally alert and energetic about following the safety guidelines of particularly wearing a mask, washing your hands and social distancing.

MG: Andrew, what do you make of this? From your perspective, in Toronto, where I am, where we're not moving to phase two, we're still in phase one in this kind of grind, the cases continue to pop up. How much of this is about the kind of messages we're getting from public health officials that people would be willing to take risks that perhaps they wouldn't have taken to three months ago?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Yeah, I think it's really important that we as a society understand that risk is not a binary phenomenon, but rather there's a spectrum.

MG: What do you mean by that?

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Yeah. So it's not that that whether that it's either safe or not safe. It's not that I stay in my house and I don't get covered or I leave my house, said I will. There are activities that I could undertake when I leave my house that would put me at higher risk or lower risk. Meaning if I go for a walk by myself, that's a lower risk activity. If I go to my neighbour's house and we have a party indoors without masks, that would be considered much higher risk. And so I think if because of the chronic stress that we've all been experiencing, if the authorities can focus and target messages to wards, what is the most or the highest risk element, then we can at least pivot away from those activities or those elements of our day that are highest risk. It's like having, you know, all of us can appreciate the fact that we've turned off our alarm in the morning and hit the snooze button. But a better design of our day would be that we actually don't need that alarm. We just use it as a backup so that we never hear it. And rather, we just go to bed early or wake up naturally. And that only in the event that we need to do we hear that alarm. And the same should happen with the messaging that we get. Be simple, be clear. And the public health messaging should be that we don't. That is really a simple message of, you know, six feet away from people, wear masks, avoid high risk activity.

MG: You're right there on the front lines. Do you worry that people will throw in the towel if that messaging isn't clear and coherent or that the alarm just keeps sounding over and over again and people say, enough, I'm tired of it and I'm going to go and, you know, go to the park or have that dinner party.

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Yes, I mean, this is a worry of mine. I mean, I really don't want to see a second wave. I don't want to be working at an emergency department that's overwhelmed. But I'm also reassured by how we've responded over the last several months. And we're starting that, we're seeing the decline. What needs to happen, though, is a customised or tailored message to to the current situation, because it's not the same as it was three months ago. So I'd like to see that happen from the authorities.

MG: Jacqueline? There are in some places people who are overwhelmingly abiding by the guidelines to wear masks and wash their hands frequently. Do you think that it's less likely that we'll backslide, that we really have gotten into the habit of this, that I mean, yes, there are some things to an extreme that we aren't doing as much, but generally we're being more cautious and we're being more aware of the situation that we find ourselves in.

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: I think people are trying to observe the recommendations as best they can. I think people make relatively different estimates about the effectiveness of these things and also the risk and safety and potentially understanding that could help you see what other people are doing and the choices that they're making. So I do think there are changes overall, but people vary. Some have totally closed home environments to really maintain a low risk of illness, and others have very open home environments with a higher chance of getting an illness. So I think the idea of like Andrew's point about can you take steps to mitigate your risk, have modest isolation to lower the risk of illness while resuming some parts of your routine and using all of the protective gears and behaviours that you can to help you so that you get health protections. And I think really a harm reduction approach is an important message.

MG: Harm reduction, not harm elimination.

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: Harm reduction. Yes, I think you can't really eliminate harm even if you weren't a totally close home environment. A, you know, at some point you do need to get out. But if you're using mask, gloves and seeing, disinfecting and deliveries, you know, at some point you may want to try to resume some of your routine. But you reduce some of that optimal safety that you're seeking.

MG: Just finally, Andrew, I think it's fascinating that I mean, you're a human being your doctor, you're a human being, and that you're as susceptible to to this is as any of us are, even knowing what you know and even working where you work.

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, I'm certainly no different. I mean, I don't like groceries down as frequently as I did at the beginning. And so, I mean, I recognise that when I reflect on how I behaved, though, at the time, it's quite different. You know, when you sometimes just forget things. So what I try and do is integrate elements in my day so that I have hand sanitizer now in my car all the time and I have masks in my car. So that now makes it easier for me to abide or follow what's recommended. If I have to go look for a mask every time I want to wear one, I'm unlikely to wear it.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. This is, I think, reflective of the situation that so many of us find ourselves in. Thank you.

ANDREW PETROSONIAK: Thank you.

JAQUELINE GOLLAN: Thank you very much, Matt. Dr. Andrew Petrosoniak is an emergency physician in Toronto. Jaqueline Gollan is a psychologist at Northwestern University Medical School. She was in Chicago. Over to you. How are you experiencing the so-called caution fatigue? Do you find that you're letting your guard down? Confession is good for the soul. So let us know what you are or aren't doing and how you are mitigating the risks that you're taking it in public. If you are taking any of those risks. You can reach us on Facebook and Twitter. You can email us the Web site and the email address, thecurrent@cbc.ca Or through the Web site, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link.

[Music]

SOUNDCLIP

Swedish police have launched their biggest manhunt for the gunman who assassinated the country's prime minister late last night. Mr. Olof Palme was shot in the back while walking home unguarded with his wife after going to the cinema. Police now believe the same bullet that killed the prime minister, grazed his wife. They say they don't suspect a political motive, but they have no strong clues to the killer's identity.

MG: February 28, 1986, one of the darkest days in Swedish history. And for 34 years, the mystery behind who killed Prime Minister Olof Palme has been an open wound in that country. Yesterday, the Swedish government named a long deceased suspect in the murder and closed the case. But not everyone thinks justice has been done. Goran Bjorkdahl has been fascinated by this case and another one involving a prominent Swedish leader for decades. And he's been investigating both of them. He works for the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency at the embassy of Sweden in Burkina Faso. But he is in Stockholm this morning. Goran, good morning.

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Good morning.

MG: Remind us why the death of Olof Palme was such a big moment in Swedish history.

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Well, you know, Hugh, this has been an unsolved case ever since it took place in 1986. It's like an open wound for the Swedish people. So with great expectations.

MG: What did he mean for the Swedish people, Olof Palme?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: He was a strong leader and he was maybe the last social Democratic leader we've had really [unintelligible] the more social image of social democracy. You know, after him. Politics have changed and they're not really the same after him. I mean, he is symbolises in a way the social democratic time.

MG: People say that he is in some ways the founder of the modern Swedish state.

GORAN BJORKDAHL: And in a way, he is. Yes. Because, I mean, all the Social Security networks and all that that we put in place, it was just during his time. He was also, you know, he had a very strong moral compass. And he was the last leader we've had in Sweden who was really active on the international scene. We had Dag Hammarskjold in the U.N. a long time ago, and then we had all of that. But that's it.

MG: So for 34 years, people have wondered who killed Olof Palme. The government's chief investigator yesterday said that more than 10,000 people had been questioned in this case and 134 people had claimed responsibility for this. What do you think of the decision to close the investigation now?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Of course, after 34 years, you may think it's time, but at the same time, nothing particular has happened that would justify to close it right now. I think it's a pity. There has been new information coming forward about South Africa, for example, that they haven't investigated, but I think that they should have looked closer on.

MG: The chief prosecutor said in this press conference that the killer of Olof Palme was a lone gunman. His name was Stig Engstrom, who died by suicide in the year 2000. People have long suspected him. There have been stories written, narratives in popular culture about this man. What do you think of the case that he killed the prime minister? Do you think that that is case closed?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: No, I don't think so. And I think also the majority of the Swedish people and legal experts and some of the so-called all of policy experts, they don't agree at all. You know, The prosecutor made an announcement in February, saying that he will present the solution to the case in June. So there were great expectations, people thought he had new evidence. But then yesterday, it all fell flat to the ground. It was a huge anticlimax because there was nothing new. The information that the prosecutor presented has been known for decades. It has all been in the public domain, everybody has known about it. And that was no, there was not one single evidence actually, saying that or showing that this man did it. So I think it feels very empty right now, and it's a bit strange because the prosecutor could have closed the case, just saying that they haven't found enough information or evidence. He didn't have to point out somebody, but he did.

MG: Who do you think killed Olof Palme?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: You know, I was investigating the circumstances of the airplane crash of Dag Hammarskjold and everything surrounding that, that happened in 1961. So that was long before. But when I was doing that together with my colleagues in the documentary film team, we came to visit South Africa several times because there were indications that South Africa were involved in bringing down that airplane. So I got a very good network of contacts in South Africa, military people, intelligence, journalists, historians and so forth. And suddenly somebody gave me information about the Olof Palme murder. At that time, this was in 2014, I had no real interest in it, but I thought the documents were interesting. So I gave them to the police, and then I started myself to dig into this case a bit — I got interested. And I discussed this with a man who died just a couple of years ago. He was a general and he was the top guy in the military intelligence in South Africa at the time. He was even sitting at the state Security Council, which was more or less running South Africa. It is. And I told him that if anyone could help bring out the solution, he is the one. He knows everybody, he can pull the strings. I said if he can do that in South Africa, I think it's possible that the Swedish government could give immunity against prosecution, provided that these people give the evidence and put all the cards on the table. So I said, why don't we try to initiate a contact between South Africa and Sweden? Well, he didn't really react then. But only the next day, he put me in contact with a general in today's military intelligence in South Africa, and this was in 2015. I met this man, we sat down for about two hours to talk and he said that he had prepared himself for the meeting with me with three meetings with the army leadership in South Africa. I later understood. When we discussed, I understood that he thought I was sent by the Swedish government, which I wasn't. It was a happy misunderstanding in a way. But. He said that, yes, South Africa — the apartheid government I should say — took the decision to assassinate Olof Palme and they sent a hit team to Sweden, involving military operators. And he gave me names of people in that team. And he said that South Africa is willing to discuss this with Sweden, but it has to be a negotiation between the intelligence in South Africa and intelligence in Sweden, before it is brought up on the political level. And he was not very happy to have it in the media, but I said that is the whole point. So we left it at that. And then I brought this information, this message home to Sweden. I gave it to the Swedish intelligence, and to the Palme police group. That was in November 2015, then I heard nothing.

MG: Why would the apartheid regime in South Africa want the prime minister of Sweden dead?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: During the 1980s, that was a decisive decade in the struggle against apartheid. And the ANC, that was led by Mandela, they got more than 50 per cent of their funding from Sweden and Palme was our prime minister. So Sweden was supporting ANC very very strongly. Palme was also leading the international opinion for sanctions against South Africa, and I've understood that those sanctions were really biting hard on the economy. He was seen as an enemy of the state. And he was actually, as I've been informed, classified as enemy of the state.

MG: And so you suggest that you presented this information to the chief prosecutor in Sweden, but it went nowhere?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Yes. The new prosecutor, Krister Petersen, who presented this case yesterday, I met him in April 2018, and I presented this to him. I found he was already well informed about it. He told me then, when he showed me that he was very interested.

MG: To a lot of people, you could imagine that this just sounds like a wild conspiracy theory. The prosecutor has said this is the evidence we have, the evidence points to Stig Engstrom. That there is no connection to South Africa, there is no connection to assassins coming out of the apartheid regime. How do you respond to that?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: I have evidence that the meeting I had with the general, I have evidence that it actually took place. So and I've given that to the intelligence and the prosecutors, so they know it actually took place. They know exactly what was said. There's evidence about that. There's also intelligence information from South Africa that was published by The Guardian on Monday this week, saying that there was a secret meeting held between South Africa and Sweden in Pretoria, with the National Intelligence Agency from South Africa and the Swedish delegation. And, you know, if this wasn't true, if there was nothing, if it was just a bad rumour, conspiracy rumour, then why would there be such a meeting?

MG: You mentioned Dag Hammarskjold, who is the U.N. secretary general, killed in a plane crash in 1961. What's the connection between these two incidents?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Well, I don't think there's any direct connection. But one could say that Dag Hammarskjold and Olof Palme, they played similar roles on the international scenes. They were very different as individuals, I think. But they were both. They had both a moral compass on their own, they couldn't be controlled, really. They both wanted to support the small nations against the superpowers. And in that sense, they were very, very similar. And they were both a disturbance to the superpowers and especially to NATO, I think.

MG: Why have these stories kept you so interested over the years? It's been a long time since these incidents happened. What is it that keeps you hooked?

GORAN BJORKDAHL: I had no intention. You know, I'm a forester, I had no intention to to be digging into these things. But it was actually my father who got a piece — what we think is a piece of the aeroplane in which Dag Hammarskjold crashed in, he got it in 1970/75. And there were some strange holes in it, and I wanted to find out what that could be about. When you start digging into something and you know, you find more information, it's hard to let go.

MG: Goran Bjorkdahl, it's great to speak with you about this. Thank you.

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Thank you very much.

MG: Bye-Bye.

GORAN BJORKDAHL: Bye bye.

MG: Goran Bjorkdahl is a Swedish diplomat who works at the embassy in Burkina Faso. Today, we reached him in Stockholm. Well, that is the current form today for we leave you. Some of you may have seen the prime minister speaking to graduates of Carleton University yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Your generation has acutely sensed what was wrong with the world and what needed to be fixed. You marched for climate change. You had the courage to say Me Too. You pushed us along the road to reconciliation. You stood up because Black Lives Matter. You demanded the freedom to love whom you love, to be who you are. Make no mistake, getting it degree is a momentous achievement, but you never needed a piece of paper to call out injustice. You didn't wait for this day to demand change, to create change.

MG: This year's graduation season, like so much of the world that it's taking place in, is far from normal. No big parties, no graduating class photos, no last hurrah. We know this is not what you imagined. But graduates, things don't need to be all doom and gloom here at The Current. We want to help send you off in style.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Celebrate]

MG: That's what I'm talking about. Join us next week as we celebrate this year's graduating high school and post-secondary students. We will hear from graduates. There will be music. Plus, not just the prime minister offering words of wisdom. You may have seen everyone from the Obamas to Cardi B toasting the class of 2020. Not promising Cardi B, but some of Canada's biggest and best and brightest will share a special message for the grads as well. We hope you can join us. That's next week on The Current. Speaking of the best and brightest in this country, Tom Power, the host of Q, is here. Tom.

TOM POWER: Speaking of the best and brightest in the country, we couldn't get them. So Tom's here.

MG: Do you have any words of wisdom for graduates?

TOM POWER: Eh. Let me think about it. Yeah. Maybe two things. One. Stay uncynical. That's usually my advice to myself, especially during these times. Tried to stay hopeful and stay uncynical. Also, if you're looking around, you're thinking about settling now, meeting the right person, going on dates. Don't pick up the banjo. Don't do it. It's not worth it.

MG: Duling noted. And that's advice that all Canadians should take to heart.

TOM POWER: I think so, Matt. A big show today we're pretty excited about. Have a louse on the show today. And Peter Gaytan is going to talk about the Hayday nightclub days of New York City. Nightclubs, maybe where the graduates will go once the pandemic is over.

MG: Got to go. Kool and the Gang has taken us out. Hey, buddy. Thank you, Tom. Tom Power. That's coming up right after the CBC News. I'm Matt Galloway. That's The Current. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

Thursday June 11, 2020 Full Transcript

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