As Canadians experience 'awakening' on race issues, lawyer calls for 'substance over symbols'

Guests: El Jones, Anthony Morgan, Esi Edugyan

MG: This past week and a half has been a lot for black Canadians. Videos of police violence, waves of protest, countless stories of systemic racism, and it's all prompted calls for change. But the question is, will that actually happen? El Jones is a poet, activist and professor at the University of King's College in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Anthony Morgan is a racial justice lawyer and manager of the Confronting Anti-Black Racism Unit with the City of Toronto and Esi Edugyan is the author of Washington Black and Half-Blood Blues. She's in Victoria, British Columbia. Good morning to you all.

ANTHONY MORGAN: Good morning, Matt.

EL JONES: Good morning.

ESI EDUGYAN: Good morning.

MG: First question is kind of a loaded question given the events of the last few weeks. How are you doing, Esi?

ESI EDUGYAN: I mean, it's been quite a week, right, or quite a qeek and a half. I'm you know I just have a whole gamut of emotions. From the horror and shock of seeing the video early last week to surprise at the protests. And, you know, a pleased surprise to kind of feeling impotent despair about some of the reactions against the protests. And now I feel like I'm in a maybe in a place of fragile hope. Really, really hoping that things will change and shift and that this you know has really been a galvanizing moment where we can move forward from this to an actual, you know, actually see structural changes.

MG: I want to pick apart some of those emotions in a moment, Anthony, for you, how are you doing?

ANTHONY MORGAN: I'm feeling critically hopeful in a kind of way that Esi just said. There's been a lot of highs and lows. I kind of liken it to waves, high highs, lots of force up and they crash, they crash, but then the energy pushes you forward. I'm trying to remain optimistic. I definitely believe that of course, our struggle as the black community is a long one, it's a global one. And I'm just trying to find time, moments of rest so that we can continue the fight knowing that it's a generations long engagement.

MG: What about for you, El?

EL JONES: Well, I always think of the words of the 92 year old woman walking during the Montgomery bus boycott. She was asked, you know, aren't you tired? And she said, my feet are weary, but my heart is soaring. And I think that's the kind of mood I try to keep in. As everybody said, there's been so many wild emotions from deep anger, from feeling enraged to, you know, seeing a statue of a slave holder torn down and thrown into the sea, which is both reviving and hilarious. So we found moments of joy during this, we found moments of celebration, but we're also very aware that this is taking place literally on top of the bodies, not only of George Floyd and other people have died recently by police violence, but the generations and generations and generations of our ancestors going back who suffered and died to bring us to this moment. So in this very crucial moment, as everybody else has said as well, it's important that we're not just mobilizing in protest, but we're also taking this moment to organize in our own communities to educate people about the history of our movement, to build more capacity to speak to young people about what came before, to go out and speak to our elders and then move that forward so we can actually really be organized and fight for change. And it doesn't just burn out as this kind of media phenom that, oh, remember that we had this protest and then we all went home.

MG: What's the mood been like? You've been out in the protests in Halifax, what's the mood been like on the streets of that city?

EL JONES: You've seen unprecedented numbers and I think what's really interesting in Nova Scotia, as you see now, i'ts rural communities that are coming out. So in the protest in Halifax, have been some of the largest that we've seen in Halifax. But we've also seen protests in Antigonish and Truro and Amherst and you know, across New Brunswick and these small rural communities that are coming out for black lives. And some of them don't even have a lot of black people there.

MG: What does that tell you?

EL JONES: I think it tells you how much in this moment people are seeing that what is being said is real. Now, some of that obviously is, I think, to do with the moment that it becomes the thing to do. But I also think it shows that in this moment, we do have a mass amount of people who are seeing what's happened, who are horrified and are saying finally enough and really talking about change. So we're having these conversations about defunding police and criminalization and abolition and talking about prisons. And you're seeing not just a fringe people or a few core of activists, but actually people in small communities that like, yes, you're right, you shouldn't be buying a tank for the police. That's wrong. So I think we've seen a huge number of voices joining and some are joining new, some have been in this movement for years and that's exactly in this moment what we have to find a way to harness that power cause there's also a danger in these movements, right? Like when Trudeau says he wants body cameras. This is not what people are asking for. Or when Saunders is kneeling. And we're also seeing these very performative moments, particularly from officials who have always had the power to improve black life and haven't that are also taking advantage of this moment to derail us and I think we also have to be aware of that.

MG: Esi Edugyan, you said that you were pleasantly surprised with the demonstrations and the protests. Tell me a bit more about that.

ESI EDUGYAN: I mean, there hae just in so many lives lost. We've been watching these videos for years and years and we kept these protests afterwards, which have been so in the moment. You know, you feel the outrage, but then it seems like we move past that moment and things return to how they always were. In this case, it feels like the protests are much larger and they're very diverse and it seems like people are really waking up to the fact that this isn't just a black issue or an Indigenous issue, but that this is something that affects everyone and that we all should be outraged about. And that really to have that understanding and recognition of systemic brutality resonate through all quarters of all communities. This is the only thing that's actually going to bring about change is if everybody decides that, you know, these are great wrongs and we have to work against this. And it feels like it's really becoming a movement and, you know, that brings hope. That makes you feel like, you know, maybe this time things will actually lead to a different outcome.

MG: Anthony, El talked about the performative element of this, and you're seeing that across society where every sports team, every sports league, every corporation, every people want to be involved in this. They want to be seen to be involved in this as well. How are you processing that in the midst of these protests in Toronto, which have been substantial, peaceful, large, big events where people across the spectrum are gathering to be out as part of this moment?

ANTHONY MORGAN: So I'm trying to remain sober about it, if I'm honest. I've been fortunate to be able to do a lot of different kinds of work to support achieving greater well-being for black folks, whether it be trying to get equitable outcomes in policing or housing, health care, education and so forth. But as committed as I am to that work in support of black communities in Toronto and across Canada, I also like to remain thoughtful about other parallel movements, not to make false equivalencies, but to see what we can learn. And so I think about the ways in which indigenous communities and elders have taught us to remain, taught me to remain vigilant and aware that there will be these performative things that happen, but the struggle will continue. Idle No More was a force that grouped the entire country, but we haven't achieved reconciliation. There have been ongoing protests. There continue to give out Wet'suwet'en about what's left. And in this moment, it's easy to forget about that. That protests that that was taking place on the west coast. And so I see it, I'm understanding why it's happening. People do want to demonstrate that solidarity and think many black communities welcome it, but what they really want is substance over symbols. And taking in me, putting up a fist or or holding a sign is important, but that is a symbol of your commitment. But we want substance of your commitment. What are you actually willing to invest, to give up to support the achievement of equitable well-being for black people?

MG: Black people in this country, as well as in the United States, there's been a lot of talk about the need for Canadians to confront racism in our own country. That what we're seeing in the United States is at a scale in terms of the protests that are different than here, but the issues are very similar. How much of that do you think is actually happening? Where people are having that gut cheque and looking inward in this moment?

ESI EDUGYAN: You know, it's sort of hard to quantify that. I know that my sister has been it's been a very strange moment for her because she has people kind of reaching out to her to ask her about her experiences, people who were acquaintances and she didn't really, you know, hadn't really tried to connect with her before. I guess she is surprised. She also feels maybe a little bit like there's a kind of tokenism happening where people are sort of wanting to check in with the black friend or the black acquaintance that they have. But I also think that that's a start as well, that that's just this kind of, I guess, desire to know another's others experience. I mean it can feel very artificial in the moment, but also the beginning of something, the beginning of maybe something that could be ultimately much more genuine. But if I think about it, I think things need to change in sort of a more structural like educational level. When I was a kid growing up in Calgary, black history was not at all anywhere on the curriculum, even something that we think of as sort of fundamental to our history, like the Underground Railroad. This wasn't something that was at all covered on the, I guess any of the curriculum. Never mind, you know, looking more deeply at the history of slavery in Canada, in the east. There was just no attempt to touch upon African Canadian history and that's something that I think has to change. We need to look to these communities in history and show people that African Canadians have very much been a part of the fabric of our nation for hundreds of years. You know, to sort of not discuss that in school is, you know, to me, that's an omission. That could be a place to start.

MG: What's at the root of this, El? You wrote about this in The Washington Post, this denial of racism in Canada, the habits that we might have in this country of saying, sure, things are bad here, but it's nowhere near as bad as it is in the United States. What's at the root of that, do you think?

EL JONES: Anthony Morgan, of course, is also Anthony has written about this in a really great article called I can't breathe in Canada. We're suffocating in Canada as well. So I think part of it is very much that Canadians have always struggled in defining our identity and have always defined it against the United States. You know, this cultural beast to the south. And one of the ways that Canadians, one of the fairy stories they've always told us is we're not like that. And that also translates into this notion that we're not like that when it comes to matters of race. So anti-black racism exists in the South. They had lynchings. They had enslavement. We didn't have those things here. We were where the Underground Railroad came. And of course, nobody talks about what actually happened to the free communities that were founded when the Underground Railroad came. And nobody certainly talks about the reverse underground railroad. There's enslaved people actually had to escape from Canada into the northern United States because slavery persisted in Canada longer than we've had abolition of slavery in Canada. In the article I mentioned the first recorded race riots in North America in Shelburn in 1784, where white settlers burned out their black neighbours in an act of racial violence and segregation that persisted in Nova Scotia until 1956 and the last segregated school closed in 1983. Segregated cemeteries across this country, we're just not taught that history. I was speaking to an elder the other day, and I if I knew that my land had been taken from me like that and I had to walk through the city every day and see my community, dogs running around it and just empty space, I would want to burn the entire city down. But these wounds are still open. This isn't the past. This isn't something that is this forgotten history and all that was so long ago and it didn't really exist and it wasn't as bad. There are actual living elders in our community today that had their homes bulldozed from underneath them because the city claims they wanted to do urban renewal and that meant destroying black people after denying them city services for generations. And I think it's very important that that is still living history. So Canadians are in the midst of denial. And then when you address it, people take it personally. So it's not just saying something about the country. It's like this personal investment in this narrative that but then you're saying I'm not a good person. So I think it's very important that we do that work to really speak about the realities in this country. Doesn't mean we have the same history. We have a different history. But that doesn't mean that history is somehow lesser. And I'm really glad that Anthony also talked about indigenous people in this country. You know, we cannot talk about anti-black race in this country without also identifying the colonial genocidal roots of this country, the theft of land and resources is ongoing. The fact that only days ago, while all the eyes of the world were on police, New Brunswick police killed a 26 year old mother, Chantal Moore, an indigenous woman, while everybody was watching.

MG: During a health check.

EL JONES: During a wellness check. So I think it's also really important that we connect when you say, why is this happening? The racism in this country is founded upon the genocide of indigenous people and the ongoing genocide through theft of land, resources, culture, the death of indigenous women and girls, that continues today.

MG: Anthony to El's point, you've written about this. There was in the midst of this in an editorial written in a newspaper saying Canada is not a racist country and people will take the suggestion that racism is alive and thriving here as a knock to the national narrative, but also to El's point will take it personally. Do you see that changing at all? Do you see a greater willingness to acknowledge the history that El has been laying out?

ANTHONY MORGAN: I'm hesitant to be too optimistic, but I think we may have possibly turned a point where it's the denial will continue to happen, but it won't be as accepted as the truth of Canada going back to the status quo that we didn't have slaves. We haven't had segregation. We haven't had anti-black violence. So I think while the denials will continue, those voices are going to be met with a bit more of corrective force to say, wait, hold on. And not just from black communities, but more average citizens who are are seeing what's happening and becoming awakened to what's happened. I refer to this as a kind of a great Canadian awakening of sorts because black communities have known this, folks who've also lived on the intersections or live in proximity to the experience of black folks, like indigenous folk, queer and trans folk, folks living with disabilities. They've had a sense about injustices or seen them and in many instances have been willing to recognize them. The challenges that we continue to face as black communities since the first enslaved African, at least on Canadian land in 1628, is that you know this is a fundamental part. Anti-black reason is a fundamental part of the ways in which Canada has been structured and moved forward. And so until we're able to take that and not take it personal, but really accept it as part of the historical truth that has led to the building of this country, we're not going to move forward. And I think many people are finally willing to say, you know what? Yeah, that is part of our story. Now, here's what we're going to do about it.

MG: It's interesting is in the conversations that we've had, routinely, people will say that this is a moment that is different than moments in past. Black folk who've been talking about racism and policing for a long time. Why, Anthony, does this feel like a different moment to you?

ANTHONY MORGAN: I would say that just the amount of people that have come out and the kinds of people and the kinds of institutions, I'll say. If we're thinking about the ways in which power and decision making really shape people's lives, we're seeing government leaders. We've seen police services as problematic as it is, they've taken steps that even five years ago, they almost certainly wouldn't even contemplate. You'd be laughed out of the room. Someone had said, okay, go out there and march with them, it wouldn't happen. And so while these things, again, are symbolic of performative, they don't immediately translate to substantive change, they are creating a general climate where many folks, I think, are feeling more comfortable stepping out even if they don't feel comfortable, they're courageous to say you know what anti-black racism is real. Corporate leaders have done it, economic organizations, engineering firms, just a range of social organizations and institutions and non-social organizations and institutions are willing to step forward. So that's making the moment feel different. The level and degree of acknowledgement is different. But of course, what black communities really want to see is a change in outcomes when it comes to our experiences in education, employment, housing, health care and of course, policing and the justice system. Access to food, access to child care, that's the real marker of change. So we appreciate the sentiment, but what we're really keeping an eye on is those disparities and outcomes.

MG: El Jones, does this moment feel different to you than moments past?

EL JONES: I think without putting it down to one source, because, of course, this is a 500 year battle that black have people been fighting plus that I think certainly coming out of the pandemic way, if we needed a more grotesque display of the social gaps in society, we got it. So things that will always true and were always there were just so starkly revealed in the amount of black people that died in COVID because of how poor health outcomes have been influenced by racism and poverty and our constant deprivation of resources from our communities. But also the fact that, you know, you can put military tanks and tear gas in the street and send out the military, but nurses couldn't get PPE. That, you know, people have lost their jobs en masse. You have millions and millions and millions of people out of work at a time where they transferred trillions of dollars to corporations. So I think those social pressures, combined with the spectacle of ceaseless black deaths is too much. I think there was those political forces. I'm about accountability in this moment. So Anthony is a kinder person than I. I'm not that willing to give officials that much credit. They have responsibility. So if we look at, say, the G20 in Toronto, when police officers covered their badges and violated the civil rights of thousands of Canadians, Bill Blair did not discipline anybody. The officers lost a day's pay and he has been effectively promoted. Right? So a police chief that oversaw racial profiling in Toronto and did nothing to end it, that violated the civil rights of people, gets elected as an MP and is now our minister of public safety. So when Trudeau kneels, but you appointed the person that is responsible for police killings and black death in this country to the position of minister of public safety where he will continue to deport black people, to inprison black people. They have responsibility. And on a smaller level as wellm our city council, our police force that has had the ability to hold police accountable and have not done so.

MG: El Jones, I want to pick up on that point after the break and talk more about what accountability means and what it looks like to you. I have three people with us, El Jones, poet, activist and professor in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Anthony Morgan is a racial justice lawyer and manager of the Confronting Anti-Black Racism Unit with the City of Toronto. And Esi Edugyan is the author of Washington Black and Half Blood Blues. They are all reflecting on the last week and a half, not just in the United States, obviously, but here in Canada and talking about where we as a society go from here. We'll pick this conversation up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Before the news, I was speaking with a panel of black Canadians about this moment, what it means and where it might lead us. Our guests are Anthony Morgan, racial justice lawyer, manager of the Confronting Anti-Black Racism Unit with the City of Toronto. Esi Edugyan is the author of Washington Black and Half-Blood Blues. And El Jones is a poet, activist and professor at University of King's College in Halifax, Nova Scotia. El, before the news, you were talking about police accountability. What does accountability look like to you?

EL JONES: Well, this is why we're talking about defunding the police. This is why there's a huge movement now that is looking at in Toronto, the police budget is over a billion dollars. And when they showed up to help people, they kill people. So why are we pouring money into the salaries of people because the majority of police budget goes to police salaries. To put that into mental health, where people who actually are trained mental health responders that know how to de-escalate the situation, who can deal with people in crisis, actually show up rather than the police. We should not be putting money into this.

MG: You were talking about the scale of protest. I want to bring Esi in this in a moment. You were talking about the scale of the protests and how that shows broad support. Do you worry that talk of defunding or disarming police is the kind of thing that could turn some of that support away from the movement in this moment?

EL JONES: It's not real support if it's not based on substantial change. If you're there to take a selfie or if you want to dictate to black people who have been actually working on this and other people who so medical professionals. There's so many people who have worked on this, talked about this plan for this. Know the best practices, work in these fields and so if anybody thinks that, you know, they have somehow the entitlement to show up to protest and then say, oh, you can't talk about this when it's your community that's dying or, you know, you can't talk about this even though you're a lawyer or a health professional, someone who does street outreach work or someone who's lived that life because I know better then you're not actually part of the movement. And no movement needs to soften itself or sacrifice certain lives for the majority. All lives of black people and all lives of oppressed people and all lives of people being killed by police and all lives being crushed by the state and we do not leave people behind in the name of sacrificing some for the majority.

MG: Esi Edugyan, you wrote that the weight of change shouldn't rest on the shoulders of black people. Does that feel like what's happening right now?

ESI EDUGYAN: I feel like now we're at a moment where these are some of the first protests that we've seen where it doesn't feel like that's the case. It does feel like people across all spectrums, you know across all generations, all races are wanting to to get involved and see change. And I understand that there is, you know, to a certain degree of performative aspect to that. But I also feel like that, you know, that's the start of something. I guess you go through the symbolism. And then I feel like this time people want to sort of reach beyond that. And they do have a sense that things have to change, although nobody seems to know what that should look like. And in terms of dismantling or defunding the police, you know, the conversations I've been having, I haven't really had a sense that people have been hugely against that. It could be because they're speaking to me. If they don't sort of want to admit it, but I guess it's a bit of a shocking notion. But I think people just more want to have a sense that there will still be public safety. That we aren't as societies compromising that. But I think people understand that maybe to have the police respond to situations in which there's a mental health crisis or there's an addiction issue, that maybe this isn't the best thing. But, you know, we could dispatch social workers and you know medical workers to deal with such crises instead. And so maybe some of the funding could be diverted there. I haven't heard a lot of blowback about that, which has been encouraging.

MG: How do you make sure that the burden for change doesn't just rest on the shoulders of black communities across this country, that they're not the ones who are providing the answers when people say, OK, well, what do you want? OK, how should it change? How do you ensure that that doesn't happen? Esi?

ESI EDUGYAN: I think that this is something, this is a moment where we can take a lot of the things that we've been discussing and learning about and try and get legislation, try and get bills put through that really attack things at the systemic level. You know, I think people have to, this isn't something that can just sort of slip away, that we have this huge moment where everybody feels galvanized and open and wants to learn and keeping this alive through through programs such as this. And for me, through writing about it and just making sure that, you know, this isn't something that gets swept aside without having proper legislation in place. But I mean, it's sort of hard to understand or to know exactly what how this is gonna play out. You know, if this is a moment that will slip away, which is kind of sickening to think about.

MG: Anthony, are you worried that this moment, to use Esi's point, will slip away? The news cycle moves quickly. It's summer. Protests happen and then people often will move on to something else. How worried are you about losing momentum in this moment?

ANTHONY MORGAN: I'll tell you the truth. I kind of feel like I don't have the luxury of worrying about it in the sense of the needs of black communities are so significan, I'm just concentrating on how I can work with other members of the community to make sure that even when this was out of the news cycle, even when there's some other issue that folks become preoccupied with, we are still, I'm still trying to find myself in a position where I'm connecting with folks in my city and my province and across the country to keep the focus on addressing the dire needs of black communities in various areas of social welfare. When you look at other struggles, we do see this push and pull or kind of like a wave and we will come out or tide. Right? So it'll come forward, but then it will recede. But there's still some water that remains. So my focus is trying to be connected with folks and as to this program and folks who are listening, who want to support black communities in an ongoing basis to be that water that remain to nurture, support and fulfill the needs of black communities.

MG: El, is the momentum inevitable or is there the possibility that this moment is a moment and it's not seized upon?

EL JONES: We always see these moments appropriate and we know that and that's the history of our movement. And as Anthony said, we move forward and then we come backwards and then we keep pushing. We learn and build upon each movement. So this movement today is not a singular movement. It's built upon the Ferguson uprisings, which is built before it upon, you know, movements in Watts in Detroit, the Black Panther movement, the civil rights movement, movements that our people have been engaged in during enslavement and since in our own liberation. So it can never be broken, but, you know, at the moment, what kind of attention is I think the big danger is, as Anthony identified is we have to continue no matter what do the organization. There's a difference between mobilizing, which is in the moment and it brings new people in and it brings attention, it educates people and it does create some kind of momentum., but we have to organize past that. We have to make sure that people understand what we're organizing for. We have to have demands. We have to make sure our communities are being brought in. And it's not just a small class of people saying one thing while everybody else is just a body that comes to the protest and goes home. We need to, one of the things that I thought was brilliant in in Minneapolis was it was the workers who also stood up with black people, the bus drivers that refused to drive people to jail and said, we're not doing it. The workers that signed a pledge saying we're not going to support the police in that moment, in this moment. And we saw because of that, because people were actually able to organize through structures that existed through their union, through their neighbourhood, through their churches. We have to continue to build those structures no matter what, whether the media is looking at us, whether people care or not, whether anybody's paying attention, the drum beat of liberation goes on. Our ancestors walked us to this moment. They bled and they flooded and they died for us to be here. And it is our duty to pick that up and continue to walk it as far as we can and continue to walk alongside other people. And when we do that, we don't believe change comes tomorrow, but we believe we can win, we have won and we will win again.

MG: Just before I let you go, we started out by just like asking how you were doing. There's this whole concept of the check in and you have people who are calling in, just checking in to see in this moment how you're doing. What would you say to the other folks on this panel about this moment? Esi?

ESI EDUGYAN: I guess I'd say that I'm at least heartened at this moment. To me, it does feel different and that I go forward with a kind of a fragile hope that this will actually be the start of change.

MG: Anthony, what would you say to El and Esi about if you were checking in with them?

ANTHONY MORGAN: How are you doing, sisters? Please let me know how I can support or how the folks I'm connected to support because we are only going to be able to move as far as our ability to recognize each other's humanity and support eachother thorugh this. And that's how our people have survived the horrors of centuries of enslavement and then segregation and racist violence and lynching. And so we have to go through those principles of survival, go back to what has allowed us to find our way here. To folks who are outside, or to allies, I would say check on me it's cool, but check on things like the Toronto Action Plan to defront anti-black racism. The team that I'm leading, we have the City of Toronto has the only plan that, as far as our research shows across the world on how to address these things. So it's really want to be committed to substantial change. There's a model there. It's not perfect, but it is much more the model than anywhere else.

MG: El Jones?

EL JONES: My favourite second calls are the one from the ones from people in prison who are watching what's happening on the streets. And they're saying, you know, we're with you in spirit and we know that you're out there for our liberation. We wish we could be out here. Sometimes people say, you know, how do you get the strength to do this? How do you get the strength to stand up and say things that are unpopular? And the answer is because we don't stand alone. You know, we stand on the shoulders of giants and we stand with the permission from all those around us who don't have the platforms to speak. We lend our energy and our voices and our spirit for those who cannot be free with the understanding that one day we want them to be in this place speaking as well because they are free. So I always stand with those voices. They give me the most refreshment because they remind us why we're here. And for everyone on the panel who I know is also engaged in this struggle, we just remember those voices and we hold onto them and we move forward in their spirit as well.

MG: It's good to speak with you all about this. Take care of yourselves.

ANTHONY MORGAN: Thank you. Take care.

EL JONES: Thank you.

ESI EDUGYAN: Thank you.

MG: Anthony Morgan is a racial justice lawyer, manager of the Confronting Anti-Black Racism Unit with the City of Toronto. Esi Edugyan is the author of Washington Black and Half-Blood Blues. She's in Victoria, British Columbia. And El Jones is a poet, activist and professor at the University of King's College in Halifax, Nova Scotia. What will it take to make this movement last longer? And this moment last longer? Do you have any suggestions, thoughts on what you've been hearing and perhaps some insight as to where this goes from here? You can reach us through the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or email us thecurrent@cbc.ca.

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What transitioning to virtual healthcare permanently might look like in Canada

Guests: Sacha Bhatia

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one. I'm Matt Galloway. As this pandemic continues, there are many aspects of life that have changed, including going to the doctor. And there are many Canadians who are trying virtual health care for the first time. Odelia Bay lives with Multiple Sclerosis in Toronto. She has neurological exams twice a year. So for her assessment, a couple of weeks ago, she did it herself.

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VOICE: There was some strength testing and I had to do the strength part that I wouldn't normally do as the patient and provide the resistance and then also doing some tests to see my my walking gate and balance. And to do that, put the laptop on the floor so that the neurologists could see my feet. But it probably was a very narrow window and just walking back and forth within a few metres in my room as opposed to down a long corridor.

MG: That might be a bit awkward, but many people appreciate the convenience and the ease of getting health care at home, enough so that Alberta is making the service a permanent option. Others are worrying that this could make health care impersonal or that symptoms could slip through the cracks. Dr. Sacha Bhatia is a cardiologist and the chief of medical innovation at Women's College Hospital in Toronto. Doctor, good morning.

SACHA BHATIA: Good morning.

MG: Feels like we've been talking about the idea of virtual care, remote care for a long time. Has COVID in some ways forced our hand?

SACHA BHATIA: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right, Matt. You know, virtual care has been something that has been talked about. You know, even since my mom, who's a doctor, you know, was has been practising and COVID has really changed the game, I would say, in terms of adoption, because what it's done is shifted what I would call the cost of contact. So, you know, there's always been costs to patients of physical interactions with their with their physicians. And, you know, you if you think about it, you go to a doctor's appointment. You have to take time off work most of the times and buy childcare for your your kid. Or you have to take transport, find transportation down to the hospital, braved traffic, and then sometimes, you know, pay for parking, you know, and wait, you know, sometimes for a 50 minute appointment with your doctor. And to be honest, the healthcare system didn't really care about that up until recently because most of those costs have been borne by the individual patient, not by the system itself. Kove It has changed that because now the cost of physical interactions are the potential risk of infection to not only to individual patients going in for their visits, but other patients who could be sitting in a crowded waiting room as well as cost to providers. So there's a risk of now infection, not just to doctors and nurses, but to our secretarial staff, to cleaners who have to clean the rooms between patients. And then, you know, you have to think about things like personal protective equipment or PPE, you know, every time now that a patient comes in in person, we have to, you know, use more PPE and that's obviously scarce. So the costs now have shifted. And that shift has now required us to be thinking about different ways that we can deliver care potentially to reduce those costs.

MG: Can you just in addition to thinking about this as the chief medical innovation officer, you're also, as I mentioned, a cardiologist. Can you just briefly explain how this is working for you? What are you doing differently now?

SACHA BHATIA: Yeah, that's great. So now my practise is almost completely virtual, my outpatient practise. I still see patients in the hospital, but in my outpatient practise is virtual. And there's really two ways that we see patients currently. One is on the telephone, which is actually the most common way that we're seeing patients. And the other is, you know, through video visits. And so women's college, we're really lucky because we have a pretty sophisticated electronic medical record. And what will happen is, as you know, your appointment will be booked by our administrative staff and then you'll get a phone call. The patient will get a phone call a few minutes before the visit. Basically just to check them in. And then the doctor or, you know, nurse practitioner will give the patient either a call, you know, just like we're doing now, or what will happen is if they're doing a video visit, they have to get onto something called my health record, which is our patient portal, and they get registered for that in advance. And basically, when you go in there, there's a there's a link that will allow you to have Zoom, a Zoom video call, which is actually pretty private because it's connected through my health records. So it's completely safe and private. And then you'll end up talking to the doctor online and then we'll go through a routine, you know, visit just like we would in person, and then we'll create a follow up plan together. And I put my orders into the computer and then, you know, the administrative assistant will call you back and book any tests that need to be done or follow up. It's pretty simple actually.

MG: It sounds very simple. Let's hear about it from the patient's perspective. Angela Neils lives in Ottawa and she has had two virtual health care appointments with her doctor.

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VOICE: It just takes so much less time to not to go across town and wait in line with all the pleasantries of what it is to go into a doctor's office, wait and so on and so forth versus them just calling you. I felt like I could be more honest and share more information over the phone versus maybe you feel that more nervous talking to your physicians in person about some of your medical issues or that sort of thing. I would have in person brought up more things and had more of a conversation versus it was so efficient, I just needed to say one thing. Let's talk about it. Let's get it over with and you're good to go.

MG: We've talked about this, as I said, for a long time, people have swirled around the idea of e-health. Why is it that that healthcare has been, I think some people would say, notoriously slow and added at adapting the technology that we use for other matters on a daily basis?

SACHA BHATIA: Well, it's true. Health care has been slow. I mean, I think we're the only industry that continues to use a pager and fax machine, as you know, staples of healthcare technology. I think a lot of it is actually not about the technology at all of that. It's about one is the way we've been trained and so the way doctors and nurses have sort of done things forever. So there's a little bit of sclerosis. I think the other thing to be honest is billing codes, which you mentioned off the top around the fact that we. Up until very recently at just the onset of the pandemic were not paid for phone calls, for example,.

MG: Fee for service as they call it.

SACHA BHATIA: Fee for service. Exactly. So we weren't paid for that. So in-person was really the only way that a physician could get paid. And then there there have been concerns about things like privacy and security. You know, art is my medical record going to be safe? You know, is my conversation with the physician or the nurse practitioner going to be safe and secure? So I think there have been those concerns as well. And the thing about a pandemic is it creates a crisis that sometimes pushes those things aside for a second.

MG: I want to hear from another patient. Her name is Cristina Butt. She Is a resident in Toronto, has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which affects her joints and gastrointestinal system. She also has chronic pain. She sees several doctors and specialists as well.

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VOICE: The doctors respond, I find differently in person. And just having those visual cues from them, facial expressions, eye contact, being there in person, also you kind of force them to really deal with you one on one and be present when they're talking to you. For me, I'm getting easily distracted because I'm at home and I'm on my phone. My visists have been much shorter than my office visits usually were and I'm not sitting here talking to my doctors as regularly as I usually would.

MG: So, Doctor, what do you make of that? If you are here in the studio, we would have a different conversation to be the same conversation, but a different form of the conversation than we're having over the phone. How do you compensate for what you aren't able to see face to face?

SACHA BHATIA: You know what? It's probably the one, it's one of the major changes that I think we're going to have to adapt to as we really move to, you know, integrating virtual into our practice, which is there are certain things I just cannot do over the phone or on video. So, you know, I heard from one of your patients about, you know, doing self-examination. So if I have a patient who comes in with shortness of breath and the one thing I would do is examine their lungs and examine their heart and I can't listen to their lungs or their heart right now. So I have sort of two options at this point. I can either decide to bring them in physically for an in-person visit, which we're still doing. And I think that's an important part of the, you know, of the care pathway. The second is to send them for a test. So to send them for a chest x ray or to send them for, you know, an electrocardiogram or another type of test. So the point is, the thing that we have to figure out that we haven't done yet because everything is moved so quickly is how do we actually integrate video phone visits into, you know, what I would consider a continuum of care. So to me, virtual care are just tools. They're not necessarily replacements, you know, for all types of care that we provide. You know, like I don't think I would give somebody a diagnosis of something really serious over the phone. I would probably bring them into my office and have a conversation with them. So patient selection around, you know, what type of patient gets, what type of visit, whether phone or video or even like, you know, an in-person visit. I think it's going to be really important. And then how we follow up on that is going to be equally important.

MG: I want to try to squeeze two more questions into the last couple of minutes that we have. One is just about the growth in private direct to consumer companies offering these services as well. Have a listen to this.

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VOICE: It's really creating silos of services that are disintegrated from the public health care system. So we really have to make sure we find a way to integrate that technology and that supports health care services for all Canadians that are not based on your ability to pay or your employment status.

MG: That's Ol Mitalsky, who's with the University of Montreal. Are you concerned about private companies fitting into this virtual healthcare system because they might have greater resources, better technology, what have you?

SACHA BHATIA: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I worry about there is comprehensiveness of care and continuity of care. So, I mean, just virtualising the walk in clinic, I don't think necessarily solve the concern that we had that we've always had in health care, that there's fragmentation. So virtual care should bring us together. It shouldn't create more silos.

MG: The other part of this just in the last minute or so is what happens if you don't have access to this technology? You live in a rural community, you don't have high-speed internet, are you going to be left behind?

SACHA BHATIA: I think equity is going to be such an important issue that we have to deal with. I think the provincial government just gave, I think, one hundred and fifty million dollars to expand rural broadband, which I think is welcome news. We also have to make sure that that we give options to all of our patients if they don't have virtual that we provide other means of them being able to seek care. And it's not just about the technology. We also have to have safe spaces to be able to do a virtual visit because some people just don't have the space or privacy in their home to do so. So we have to come up with ways to do that.

MG: It's become a bit of a parlour game to predict what's going to happen when we come out of this pandemic. One of the things clearly, though, is that health care is going to change in some sort of way.

SACHA BHATIA: Oh, I think I really think there are certain things that are moments and this has really been the moment for virtual care.

MG: Doctor, it's great to talk to you about this. Thank you.

SACHA BHATIA: Thanks again.

MG: Dr. Sacha Bhatia is a cardiologist and the chief medical innovation officer at Women's College Hospital in Toronto. Are you involved in virtual care in this pandemic? Maybe you are a doctor, a health practitioner, a nurse? We'd love to hear from you. We'd also love to hear from patients. How has your experience being cared for virtually worked out good or bad during this pandemic? You can let us know through the website. There's that technology being used, cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. In 90 seconds time, we are going to speak with our national affairs panel. It's been a busy few weeks, certainly politically, pandemic, economic uncertainties. Also, great concerns now being addressed at the federal level on systemic racism. We'll hear from the panel coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music]

A look at the government’s proposed legislation to tighten CERB rules

Guests: Althia Raj, Kady O’Malley, Erica Ifill

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Today in Ottawa the government is expected to table legislation that would tighten the rules for claiming the Canada emergency response benefit, which has become known as the Serb. Under this draught bill, anyone caught deliberately lying on applications could face stiff penalties, including fines or jail time. Yesterday, the leader of the NDP, Jagmeet Singh, had this to say about that idea.

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VOICE: There was a commitment in this parliament by the Liberal government and in fact, all parties agreed that people should not be unduly penalized if they apply in good faith. What we're hearing reported in the media now with the bill is the exact opposite of that. They are effectively opening up the floodgates to retroactively charging people just for applying. And that is the exact opposite of what we should be doing in a pandemic. So I am outraged that the Liberal government, that the Prime Minister Trudeau, take a knee and one day, while at the same time the Liberal Commons draughting a bill that's going to penalize potentially people who applied in good faith, but maybe didn't meet a certain criteria. That is wrong.

MG: Our national affairs panellists here to discuss what all of this might mean. Althia Raj is the Ottawa bureau chief with HuffPost, Canada. Kady O'Malley writes for iPolitics. And Erica Ifill is an economist, columnist for the Hill Times and the co-host of the Bad + Bitchy podcast. Good morning to you all.

KADY O'MALLEY: Good morning.

ERICA IFILL: Good morning.

ALTHIA RAJ: Good morning.

MG: Althia Raj, what else do we know about this draught bill that the Liberals are expected to introduce later on today?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, it seems they're not even sure if they have found a dance partner yet. So it told late last night to be warned it could get very exciting today. Basically, as you mentioned in the introduction, the NDP has said, that they are not going to support this bill at all if it includes jail time, even if that jail time is for extreme fraudsters. The Conservatives that have basically not played ball with the liberals and have suggested that they want the House to return to the full parliament. Basically, there is no regular business happening. There is no supply that is going to the opposition. They want to see that the house come back. So we'll see the Liberals cave on that. And the Bloc has said that they want a fiscal update this month, the first ministers meeting on health transfers and they want CERB to continue and the Liberal Party to return the funds that they've accessed through the wage subsidy program. So it doesn't seem like any of these things that are options that the Liberals want. So it could be, could be interesting.

MG: So part of this is about, as I was saying in the introduction, if you are lying or deliberately playing with the rules when it comes to the CERB, you could face these fines or jail times. There's also, I guess, some sort of consequences for people who fail to go back to work when it is, in the words of the government, reasonable to do so, that if they aren't reporting their self employment or that if they decline, people decline a reasonable job offer when they're able to work. Why is the government now, in whatever, 13 weeks into this pandemic, why is the government making these moves, Althia?

ALTHIA RAJ: Well, I think there is a recognition that things have not worked out as they had expected and the sense that not enough people have been using the wage subsidy. This is the program that your employer applies for, and it helps pay part of your wages, which is actually a more generous program in many cases than the CERB. There are more people who have paid for the service than are actually, according to Statistics Canada, unemployed. We know that that makes sense in certain parts. Like there were people, for example, students who were encouraged by Liberal MPs to apply for the CERB with the expectation that there would be a programme for them coming down the pipeline, which is what has happened. But there are also people we heard yesterday as the Treasury board president say that there is tens of thousands of people who have actually applied for CERB twice. So the program is incredibly expensive. The government feels it cannot continue delivering this program. It wants to wean people off the program, so they can go back to work. But the key is really that that issue of what's reasonable and we know that there are a lot of people who feel unsafe returning to work, a lot of people can't return to work because they don't have childcare. And so there are additional problems I think that the government has yet to answer. Like clearly, you cannot return to work because your children have no place to go. Are you eligible to apply for CERB? And frankly, there is no clear answer from the government on that.

MG: Kady O'Malley, we heard Jagmeet Singh, leader of the NDP say that this is outrageous, penalising people in the midst of a pandemic. What are the other opposition parties saying? And what do you make of the timing of this?

KADY O'MALLEY: Well as Althia has said, the Conservatives have basically their deal breaker is they would like the House of Commons to come back and sit properly full, regular sittings. The trouble there and we won't get into it cause it's an entirely different segment. It is virtually impossible, no pun intended, to do that in-person sittings with the pandemic and social distancing restrictions. So leaving that aside, I think from the Liberal government's perspective, they have never considered the Conservatives a possible base of support for any legislation. For them, it's always been about appealing to ideally both, either the Bloc Quebecois or the New Democrats. The New Democrats, what I kind of, I guess I'm a bit puzzled by Jagmeet Singh's reaction because all of the opposition parties got copies of this bill over the weekend. So he knows what's in the bill. It's not like he's relying on media reports like, say, me, who hasn't seen the bill or other people in the same position, but he has presumably seen the text. So I guess what is probably happening now at the last minute negotiation and the back and forth over and we, you might recall, we saw this when the very first COVID response legislation was brought in back in April. Was it March or April? A month is starting to blur together.

MG: Time flies when you're doing nothing.

KADY O'MALLEY: It really when you're in lockdown. But you saw the bill that the government had initially sort of the draft legislation undergo massive changes so that they could get the support of the other parties. I suspect a similar rewrite may be going on right now. And you may ultimately see the New Democrats end up supporting it if they can be assured that it's not going to penalize people who claim it in good faith and more importantly, because this is politics, if they can point to it and say, hey, look, look what we managed to achieve, we got the Liberals to back down on X, Y, Z. This is what a proper opposition party does.

MG: Well, just before I bring in Erica, what about the fact that Adam Vaughan, an MP for the Liberal Party, has come out, I mean Althia was talking about dance partners. They may not have dance partners within their own party. He says that the government shouldn't be scaring people to achieve its goals.

KADY O'MALLEY: Yeah, which is I mean, a perfect, I don't know if Adam Vaughan has actually seen the legislation. It's very confusing when you have a bill that sort of circulating amongst some circles, but not others. The reality is I'm not actually sure if Adam Vaughan is going to be in the House of Commons today for the vote because remember, they're still doing that limited participation. So he may not be one of the MPs who is there and who gets to vote yay or nay on the subject. But, yeah, I think that it's clear that the Liberals either the legislation has some flaws on that front or they're doing a terrible job of selling it, which they've also historically been really bad at. So that could be the issue, too. But one way or another, I think, yeah, if they can't get one of those parties to support it, it's back to the drawing board.

MG: Erica Ifill there's an interesting comment in that clip that we played from Jagmeet Singh in which he said that the prime minister takes any one day and then is punishing people for trying to make ends meet in a pandemic the next day. What do you make of the criticism around this proposed bill?

ERICA IFILL: Well, I mean, that's not surprising for this government. This government is very performative. It campaigns progressively and then governs from the centre right or the centre. So as a neo liberal government. So I'm not surprised that there's kind of like the performance and the substance within this government doesn't connect. I'm not surprised at all.

MG: Do you see a connection between those two things, that Jagmeet Singh kind of rolled into one statement?

ERICA IFILL: Well, yeah, because I think what he's trying to and I think what he's trying to say is basically what I said. This is a government that likes to that really likes to market itself with progressive social values. But that does not necessarily translate into labour policy. That's what I've noticed with this government. They are not as sorry, supportive of labour as I think a progressive government should be, if that's what they are. But on the real though, my question is, who are these tens of thousands of people? What do we know about them? Why did they apply twice? Why do we assume it's fraud? Why are we so into criminalizing people for possibly making a mistake, possibly not understanding? Maybe they didn't know that they didn't have to apply every month. I don't know. We don't know what was in their minds. So why are we assuming criminality? And why is that the knee jerk reaction for us?

ALTHIA RAJ: Can I jump in on that?

MG: Absolutely, go ahead.

ALTHIA RAJ: Yeah. Well, two things. I don't actually agree that this is a centre right or even a centre, a government. I think the Liberals have been campaigning, not just campaigning, but governing very much to the left. In fact, there's such a huge vacuum now I feel on the centre right. But putting that aside, the substance of the proposed legislation basically is vague, but the government has communicated its intent, saying that it is not going after people who applied for things in good faith and maybe it didn't know. I mean, a lot of people are not familiar with the way bureaucracies work.

ERICA IFILL: But how do they determine is not answering the phone.

ALTHIA RAJ: And, you know, even if you have questions, it's really hard to get clear answers from the government. So the government is not communicating that it plans to go after people who even applied for the CERB twice or may have applied for CERB thinking that they were not going to make over a thousand dollars and then ended up making $1400 that month. So that is what it's communicating. The substance of the proposed legislation is that word that you said, Matt, reasonable. And I think it scares people when they, when you say if you failed to resume self employment, when it is reasonable to do so, that you would not be eligible to apply for CERB. Who decides what's reasonable? And people, I think, are terrified that they're going to be included in that. And so I think the onus is on the government to flesh things out, but the criminal aspect of the bill, the $5000 ffine, the imprisonment of up to six months. That has been the intent has been clearly communicated that that is where people who are really intent on defrauding the system, that are making claims that they have absolutely no claim to, that they'd be making tens of thousands of claims. I mean, not tens of thousands, but more claims on behalf of, you know, people who don't exist, people who are dead. Who knows?

MG: Erica, you were, I heard you the background. So go ahead.

ERICA IFILL: Well, at the end of the day, I mean, labour policy and immigrant immigration policy is not progressive in this country. And so, I mean, but we can quibble about that. That's fine. My thing is this government has been very poor communicators of their intent of policy. They have not, they may have indicated that they're not going after certain people and other people, but the whole unveiling of some of these programs and the eligibility, they encouraged people to apply and now they're saying, well, if you did something fraudulent, we're going to penalize you, fine. But they should have just made it universal in the first place.

MG: Kady O'Malley, is that a communication issue? I mean, one of the things, this happened so quickly, it seemed like the economy stopped in a second and the government said that it was going to push this out and people needed to get money. But are we now seeing the consequences of doing that?

KADY O'MALLEY: Well, to be honest, they always sort of said that the you might recall when the plan was first brought in, there were people raising the issue is, oh, what about eligibility? You know, what sort of streamlined is there going to be to make sure, you know, false or payments that shouldn't be made get through? And the response of the government is always, you know what, we want to get the money out first and we'll worry about paying back and sort of policing and auditing second. We'll do that down the line. We're now at down the line as far as the timing goes. I totally agree this government has been absolutely terrible in communicating its intent on a whole lot of levels. This would be just another example of its inability to do so. In this particular case, or just to go back to something I was, you know, kind of ranting about earlier, the fact that none of us have seen the legislation yet really makes it difficult to offer a reasonable analysis simply because we don't know. We know, we sort of are getting reports from reporters that have seen it. We're getting reaction from opposition parties who've seen it, sort of thing, what they don't like. We can't pick up the bill ourselves and go through it and look at the fine print and say, OK, that sounds workable, but whoa that clause is going to be a problem.

MG: It's like it's being shaped in real time in some ways.

KADY O'MALLEY: Exactly. Exactly. Which is why, frankly, I think the government probably should have released the draft legislation to everyone over the weekend. And just, you know, we could all help, you know, Wikipedia style, we could all put it together in a better way if there are problems.

MG: Althia, just finally on this point, is this about trying to figure out how long the government can afford to continue these sorts of programs? That when you and maybe not through the criminalization part of this, but that you start to signal that we're going to have to pull back on some of this stuff at some point in time. Conservatives have been calling for this for a while, saying that you need to, you know, at some point in time the bill will come due. Is that what this is also about?

ALTHIA RAJ: I think they don't want to discentivize people who are working. And so who can work rather. The CERB basically expires at the end of July for those people who are in this first wave. And the government wants these people to go back and work and the economy to start again. And if people feel like they can keep claiming $2000 and don't return to work, then the economic recovery will take a lot longer.

MG: Let's talk about the other big thing that is happening in this country right now. Aside from a pandemic, there are protests that are happening coast to coast. We're seeing them in the United States obviously, and right around the world around systemic racism, anti-black racism. The prime minister and members of his government have been pushed on what they have or have not done. Part of this is about police and police conduct. Erica Ifil, the RCMP has faced a number of allegations. We've talked about them on this program of police brutality. The RCMP now says that it will adopt the use of body cameras for some officers. This is something the prime minister has endorsed. Is this part of the solution to what we're seeing right now, Erica?

ERICA IFILL: Body cameras? No. This sounds like a proposal that was dusted off the shelf. It was brought off the shelf and, you know, presented to us as some sort of change. It is not. Body cameras in the United States has been around since about, what, 2015 after the Michael Brown protest, the Ferguson protests in 2014. The research on this is mixed. There is no clear cut, I don't see a clear cut reason to install these cameras. Number one because it's not going to prevent any more unarmed black or indigenous people from being abused by the police. There's no evidence to show that it will. This is more about police transparency and accountability. That's the problem that is trying to solve. And we have other mechanisms that can be given resources and power to within the system, sort of for example, the civilian I believe the civilian complaints to more is one. So we can we have those in the system. We have those mechanisms. We just need to empower them. This just seems like a large sum cost that is made to look like there's something being done when there's not.

MG: Althia Raj, what kind of pressure is there on on Justin Trudeau to do something, not just a symbolic thing, not just take a knee? We saw, he doesn't control municipal police departments, obviously, but the federal government has some influence in terms of the RCMP in what it can or can't do. What is the prime minister facing in terms of pressure to do something?

ALTHIA RAJ: A lot, actually, because the criticism, I think, as my two colleagues have pointed out, is that the Liberal government is really good at symbolism, but when it actually comes to tangible deliverables, they are definitely not as good. The government last year had announced that it was going to spend over $25 million on anti-black racism. They're going to set up an institute for people of African descent. They're going to spend money supporting black community groups. We know that very little of that money. In fact, I think only about $300,000 has been spent on a feasibility study and those groups have not seen any of that money come out. They've made some inroads in terms of giving money for a specific candidate to release more race based data, especially data sets involving black Canadians. But there are suggestions we know the anti sorry, the Black Caucus and parliament held Ferguson's group has suggested different ways that the government might be able to support minorities microcredit for groups. Selina Cesar Chavin is the black woman who was a parliamentary secretary who left the Liberal caucus, who suggested different ways that the government could address discrimination in this country, such as getting rid of marijuana possession charges, which she says disproportionately affects black Canadians.

MG: It was interesting though, I mean, in the comments around particularly how indigenous communities feel around the relationship with the police and the discrimination they face. The prime minister wasn't the one who offered the strongest comments on this. It was Marc Miller, his minister of indigenous affairs, that was out saying the loudest comments, the most pointed comments. What does that tell you Kady?

ALTHIA RAJ: Oh, shockingly. Can I?

MG: Go ahead continue, Althia.

ALTHIA RAJ: He was asked, this is the incident in Nunavut, he was asked to respond, the prime minister and he said nothing. I know you put that question to Kady, so I'm going to let her.

MG: No, but the fact he said nothing, I think that comment. Kady, you want to pick up on that?

KADY O'MALLEY: Yeah. It, definitely I think it took people a back that he didn't have a comment ready. At the same time I think it's also possible that maybe he was actually waiting for more reports, more information from his ministers and from officials just to make sure that anything he did say wouldn't, you know, come back to haunt him later if it turned out there was context that he was unaware of in any direction. But, yeah, that said, it probably would have been good to have something to say. What's interesting, and I always feel like a broken record when I bring this up, that you've already alluded to it in terms of jurisdiction, the federal government has fairly limited power to actively change policing policies, except obviously with the RCMP. And it's interesting, Erica mentioned the idea of the oversight and improving oversight of the RCMP while there is a bill that would do precisely that sitting in the House of Commons. It would also add the Canada Border Services Agency to sort of another Agrella civilian oversight agency. It's just sitting there. It can't go anywhere until the fall because parliament is not currently, you know, in a functioning state as far as passing on pandemic related legislation. So I think that's probably a frustration as well. But what I have to think and, you know, I do want to be one of those people who calls for a royal commission or an independent enquiry on every single issue, but specifically with the RCMP, I think it might be time to really get out there into the country and into the communities and find out how, you know, particularly racialise Canadians and indigenous Canadians, but how all Canadians perceive the role of the RCMP in their community, especially those for whom they are the primary police force, through contracts with the provinces. So I think maybe it is time to get to sort of a check in on how the RCMP is performing, what the image is, what people expect, and if there are some systemic issues that do need to be addressed.

MG: Erica, was that an audible eye roll in terms of the idea of another royal commission or a blue ribbon panel?

KADY O'MALLEY: To be fair, I did apologize.

ERICA IFILL: Here's my problem, OK. Every time there's a royal commission and then what? It sits on the shelf, we don't do anything about it. OK. At the end of the day, black Canadians, black people around the world have been waiting. We've been talking about these issues and we're usually ignored by media. So now that we're having a moment to dust off this tired idea of body cams instead of collecting data disaggregated data for one, because the RCMP refuses to do that on everything, on their shoot, on who they shoot, on they assault on on sexual assault cases, too, because the RCMP is very bad at that. And this idea that the federal government can only do so much is an idea. I'm tired of being parodied all around media. And it's and hold on. Let me just say that. That's what leadership is once the RCMP starts doing it. You think the other departments are going to fall? The RCMP is responsible for contract policing for seven provinces and the three territories. So. I think that's a pretty outsized leadership role.

MG: Althia Raj, in the last minute or so that we have, what does that leadership look like? We just had a long conversation with three black Canadians about what they want to see to change this from just a moment to something that means something in the long term. If you're looking for, if people are looking for leadership, what could that leadership look like, do you think?

ALTHIA RAJ: I think it's about asking people what they want the government to do, frankly, and to Erica's point, you know, black Canadians have been asking for a lot of things. Indigenous Canadians have been asking for a lot of things. And on several fronts, when the federal government is expected to address, they'll commit, but they don't deliver. And I think a lot of people are hoping that this is a moment where action actually emerges from this opportunity instead of vanishing into thin air.

MG: It's great to have you all here this morning. Eye rolls and more. I appreciate it. Thank you.

KADY O'MALLEY: Thanks so much.

ALTHIA RAJ: Thank you.

ERICA IFILL: Thank you.

MG: Althia Raj is the Ottawa bureau chief with HuffPost Canada. Kady O'Malley is a writer for iPolitics. Eric Ifill is an economist, columnist for the Hill Times and the co-host of the Bad + Bitchy podcast. That'll do it for The Current for today. If you missed anything on the program, including that long conversation that we had with three black Canadians about this moment and what the moment could mean beyond that individual moment and individual protests, you can find it through the CBC Listen app. Find that for free wherever you get your apps. Q is next on CBC Radio One. Some big news in the world of music, and I don't mean to steal the thunder of Tom Power and Q. Republic Records, which is an enormous record label, company behind big names like The Weeknd, Drake. Ariana Grande Day says that this company will no longer use the term urban. When you talk about different kinds of music, you'll often hear about urban music, and that can be hip hop. It can be R&B, soul music. The company says that that term is, in its words, rooted in the historical evolution of terms that sought to define black music. This is a big deal, in part because there are people who feel that using that term urban is used in ways to not say black music or not say hip hop or R&B. What exactly is that going to mean? It's just one of those big gestures that you're seeing coming out of this moment and we'll see how it sticks around in years ahead. In the meantime, The Weeknd one of those artists on Republic Records went to Twitter last week and wrote, "To my fellow respected industry partners and execs, no one profits off black music more than the labels and streaming services." Then went on to urge others in the industry to donate to activist groups. He himself donated $500,000. We'll see whether the music industry is going through its own reckoning, perhaps something to discuss in days ahead. In the meantime, we'll leave you with a little bit of The Weeknd. This is a tune called, "Blinding Lights." I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Blinding Lights" by The Weeknd]

The Current Transcript for June 10, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

As Canadians experience 'awakening' on race issues, lawyer calls for 'substance over symbols'

What transitioning to virtual healthcare permanently might look like in Canada

A look at the government’s proposed legislation to tighten CERB rules

June 10, 2020 episode transcript

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