Pope’s ‘pilgrimage of penance’ continues across Canada

Guests: Riley Yasno, Ellen Gabriel

AG: After his apology came the homily. Some 50,000 people joined Pope Francis inside Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium yesterday to celebrate mass. And just the day before, the pope said he was deeply sorry for the, quote, deplorable conduct of some members of the Catholic Church in this country's residential schools. The CBC's Falen Johnson was at the stadium as people waited to take their seats.

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The vibe outside of the Commonwealth Stadium definitely had a different vibe than the event at Maskwacis the previous day for the papal apology outside of the Commonwealth Stadium, there was definitely a feeling of excitement. There were very long line-ups of people really excited to hear what the Pope had to say in his mass. You know, and the crowd was comprised of a lot of different people, people of different ages, different cultures. So it was really interesting to see that mix of people. The weather was quite beautiful. There was a light breeze. It was it was a pretty nice temperature. And so I had the opportunity to talk to people about why they were there. I talked to a few indigenous women about what their reasons were and one volunteer to get her perspective on why it was important for her to be there.

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EVA: My name is Eva Solomon and my sister of St. Joseph of Sault Ste. Mary in Ontario. Yeah. And I come from the Henry Inlet Reserve, and we have to keep up.

FALEN: And what brought you here today?

EVA: To see the Holy Father and to hear the message that he gives me so that I can spread it out to others.

FALEN: Nice. And were you were you able to attend the apology yesterday?

EVA: Yes, I was.

FALEN: Yes. And how did you feel about that?

EVA: I was very happy to do it. It gave me a whole different sense of. But who is appropriation now in the sense that he was given a headdress. And that means and for us, we have a new chief and that he is the vicar of Christ on earth. So something we didn't have before.

VOICE 1: So I came out my grandmother herself was a residential school survivor, and I'm currently studying archaeology at the University of Alberta. So for me, it's extremely important to come out and be a part of this and witness history.

FALEN: And were you able to catch any of the papal apology yesterday? I did.

VOICE 1: I actually got to read it online. I was busy a little bit. So, yeah, I personally, I think it was a good apology. I am excited to see what happens today and to see how we go forward with this in the near future.

FALEN: Yeah. What would you what would you like that to look like?

VOICE 1: I think we need more mental. Health support for everyone. And not just indigenous peoples, but everyone in general, I think needs more mental health support coming from the government and I think that would be a good first step. My theory is if we start with an apology, we can move forward from there.

AZZA: My name is Azza Ghali and I am one of the lead volunteers and I am leading the way finders. So our team is helping people find the two stadiums.

FALEN: But that is no small job, I am sure. So can you tell me can you tell me again just a little bit about why you wanted to volunteer today?

AZZA: I think this is a huge event for all Canadians and especially for indigenous Canadians. Any time the pope would come to Canada, it's a big deal and this is a particularly important visit. And I wanted to support and as a Catholic, I am excited to see the Pope here and I have free time and I have the ability. So I think it's my responsibility to be of service.

FALEN: Were you able to check out any of the apology yesterday? Did you see any of the coverage?

AZZA: I did. I watched it all and it was very moving. And I was definitely as a non-indigenous person, I was definitely moved and in tears listening to the Pope's words.

FALEN: Yeah. Is there in terms of next steps for the church and the bishops in Canada, because now, you know, the pope's going to leave. And so it's almost like the ball is in in Canada's court now. Is there anything that you would like to see happen, any sort of actions you'd like to see continued?

AZZA: Well, definitely we have work to do, and not just as Catholics, but as a nation. And I think we need to you know, part of one of the beautiful things in the indigenous culture is storytelling. And I think it's our responsibility to listen and to really learn the truth so that we can have real reconciliation. And I think that part of being Catholic is having hope. And the pope, I think, is giving us hope. So it is now up to us, the people in the church and definitely the leaders of the church, to give us hope once again.

FALEN: Hmm. Nice. Nice. Well, thank you. I know you're very busy.

AZZA: Yeah, thank you.

FALEN: Thousands of people here to corral, so I want to thank you for your time.

AZZA: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

AG: That was our special correspondent for the papal visit, Falen Johnson in Edmonton. Well, for more, I want to turn to Riley Yasno. She's an Anishinaabe writer and fellow at the Yellowhead Institute at Toronto Metropolitan University. She's also an intergenerational survivor. And Ellen Gabriel, she's a mohawk activist and artist from Gunnison Duck Nation Turtle Clan. Her grandmother went to residential school and she went to day school. Ellen and Riley, good morning.

GUESTS: Morning.

AG: Ellen, let me begin with you. Who were you thinking about when you were watching the pope's apology?

ELLEN GABRIEL: Thinking of my father's mother and my grandmother, who went to Shinhwa Industrial School, one of the first schools to be to be open. And I was thinking about all the survivors that experienced all the you know, the mental, physical, sexual abuses. And I was thinking about everybody because I think no matter if you're Catholic or not, it's it's still a triggering moment because we want to hear we want to hear something that the church will take accountability for their role in the genocidal project. So that's that's pretty much what I was thinking about.

AG: When you say it was triggering, what were you feeling?

ELLEN GABRIEL: You know, watching the elders and the pain on their faces and crying. I think this is part of that healing that we need to just get through. And it has started long before the pope came and just all the things of squeezing us into small pieces of land, putting us on reserves, the racial discrimination, all those things that the Catholic Church has been responsible for, the pain and suffering of indigenous peoples across around the world, actually. So this is this is for me, only a few of the things that I've been thinking about as I watched the pope make his personal apology, not on behalf of the church.

AG: We'll get to that issue of what's happened this week in just a moment. But Riley, I want to give you a chance here. Who are the people in your mind?

RILEY YASNO: Yeah. So I was definitely thinking about, you know, my grandparents who are both residential school survivors. I was thinking about members of my community, and I'm sure this is something I can relate to with all of the work that she does. But, you know, for the past few years, I've spent a lot of time travelling and listening to indigenous people of a whole bunch of different walks of life. And with those stories come a lot of pain, a lot of that is religious pain. And so that's what I was was certainly thinking of. And I echo that. You know, I think at this point in the week, we're doing a lot of talking specifically to indigenous Catholics. But the apology was meant to be for everyone. It was meant to be for anybody who is impacted by the roles of residential schools. That's why it was a tr c, you know, a call to action. It was not just for indigenous Catholics. So I think there's a lot of of right to be either happy or feeling complicated or critical about it. So, yeah, it's it's a lot to hold, certainly.

AG: You know, in terms of the recommendations of truth and reconciliation, I wonder if this actually lives up to the to the demand there. The call for action. Ellen Gabriel There were things some people were hoping to hear Monday that the pope did not say what was what was missing for you.

ELLEN GABRIEL: Well, I think about the apology that doesn't really address the role that the Catholic Church wasn't just certain members of the clergy or Christians who did this. This was a policy that comes from a palpable the doctrine of discovery. The discovery has been condemned by the international community, and it comes from the church. The Holy See claims that it has never been applied, but it has never actually directed its repudiation of the doctrine of discovery. And the permanent forum. The U.N. Permanent Forum on indigenous issues. Did a study about this doctrine and has said that it's been a justification for the dehumanisation and exploitation and subjugation of indigenous peoples, and that the dispossession of our rights, our spirituality, our governance, lands and resources lays the very foundation of genocide. And for the Pope not to acknowledge that is is really not taking responsibility for the harms and the genocide that has been created and and acted by countries like Canada and the United States because of the doctrine of discovery and these proper goals. We are paying the consequences for that. Even today, when he when they apologised for the abuses in Ireland, they talked about the failure to act to stop the abuses, and that the Church must recognise that it put its own interests ahead of children. And that is not what I hear happening for Indigenous peoples in Canada. It is like just a very nice apology. It's a penance journey and I think that it's really it has to go deeper and he is not going deeper. And I think it's all about liability and lawyers telling him what he should say.

AG: Reily I heard Ellen just, you know, allude to the children and the abuse in other areas that the church has addressed. The Pope promised an investigation into the misconduct at residential schools, but he didn't apologise for the sexual abuse that many survivors experienced. Not directly. What do you make of that?

RILEY YASNO: Yeah, I could say that. I think it's probably part of a general critique that I have heard, which is that everything was very calculated. It felt like, you know, between not saying genocide, between not mentioning sexual abuse, saying many members of a church as opposed to the church as an institution itself, which Eleanor already touched on, like all of those things, you know, they definitely planned what they wanted to say in the speech. And there were people who added to this and looked at this. And so, you know, that's all I have to think intentional. And so, you know, to discern what you will out of that. But I think it's fair to say at least that that leaves a lot of gaping holes for people and is not, you know, conducive to taking the full scope of accountability that I think is necessary to make a good apology.

AG: You mean intentional omissions and not not oversights?

RILEY YASNO: I would say so.

AG: Riley, many are watching and participating the events this week, and they're there with with elders, with family, with kids. You are an intergenerational survivor. What do you think is important for indigenous kids, indigenous children, the next generation, to understand about what's happening this week?

RILEY YASNO: Yeah, I, I feel like, I mean, I certainly don't envy any parents of indigenous children right now who are trying to unpack this, I'm sure, with all their little ones. I think it's important to have a very honest conversation about residential school, about the role that the church had in that, and about the role that the church continues to play in our communities. And one of the things that I think is really important is this week we're talking a lot about healing. And one of the things I have been saying is that, you know, I don't want to discount the experience that, yes, indigenous Catholics and specifically indigenous Catholics who are also survivors, are getting from, as it is, anything that brings survivors peace and healing and happiness I am extremely grateful for. But at the same time, I think it's important that we emphasise that you absolutely do not have to find peace and healing from this apology, that you can find healing within yourself, within your communities, and that forgiveness is not a guarantee just because someone apologises. And so that is something that I'm holding really closely this week, is that. Yeah, I don't think that this has lived up to everyone's expectations and we have to be okay with that.

AG: Let me ask you both this question. Thousands of people there for the pope's mass yesterday at Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton. Some of those people were not indigenous Catholics who went. What are you hoping that they take away from this week, Ellen?

ELLEN GABRIEL: Well, if it's the first time that they're learning about this, and then that's a step forward. But I think that they also, as Catholics, need to put pressure on the church if they really want sincere reconciliation, the reparations, the institutions are about actions. And so they need to take action to talk about the church's responsibility and culpability in colluding with Canada and other religious orders to commit acts of genocide. This is something that I think is being excluded from a lot of curriculum, a lot of people are not aware and that, you know, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has talked about education of judges. Lawyers are professionals right across across the board. And yet, you know, we have judges who are still using the doctrine of discovery and their interpretation of the law if they want to. Not all, but if they want to. So the Catholics, I think, really have a lot of work to do. They should have been doing it long time ago. The churches, you know, the church has been negligent and they're part of the compensation package for Indian residential school survivors. You know, put their feet to the fire, too, to make that contribution and not fundraise for it.

AG: Right.

ELLEN GABRIEL: To get artefacts back to us to to to also push for all those things that the Vatican holds that belong to indigenous people, including the documents.

AG: You almost anticipated my next question, but I want to give Riley a chance here. What do you hope that the Catholics, non-indigenous people who were there, what do you hope they take away from this?

RILEY YASNO: Yeah. I've been sitting on this a lot. I think it's an excellent question because the position I'm sure most people listening will probably be in is what is my role as a spectator? I hope actively right now that, you know, they're just not getting just caught up in the glitz and glam. And, you know, this whole thing is a bit of a spectacle on TVs, it's on news feeds. And so it's easy to get caught up in that and forget the actual, you know, living indigenous people in your lives and certainly in your communities who are very likely having a lot of complicated feelings about this. So I would recommend, first of all, like, are you checking in on them? Are you doing what you can to support those indigenous people in your life at this time? And if you're not, what could you be doing is a question I think everybody should be asking. The other thing I want to say, I echo everything that Ellen said about, you know, the doctrine of discovery, returning documents. One of the things that I really, you know, struggled with growing up, coming from a heavily mechanised community and I know not necessarily Roman Catholic missionaries, but I know that there are many communities that are is that I don't think Catholics realise also the continuing role that they are playing in an ongoing colonial project in this place and that there's going to have to be a lot to do and a lot of giving up on their part in order to correct that.

AG: Well, let's wind this down, we only have a couple of minutes left, but let me ask you both. So the pope goes back to Rome, back in the Vatican, what action needs to happen once he returns to Italy to make this week meaningful, Ellen?

ELLEN GABRIEL: Well, I think he needs to hear and listen to our people like us from our perspective and the fact that we are disappointed that the apology did not encompass the whole role of the church, that he needs to get some education himself, that this is not the end, that this there needs to be an official statement by the church, the Vatican, to abolish the doctrine of discovery upon which Canada based its foundations. And that he needs to understand that indigenous people, regardless of what their faith or if they're traditional, have been impacted by what the Vatican has had stated, and that to make reparations and restitution, that he needs to follow the lead of indigenous people and not what the Vatican says. Reconciliation is not upon the shoulders of indigenous people, that it is upon the shoulders of people like him and individuals to create the reconciliation that was really needed in this in this country.

AG: Reily I'll give you the last word. Quickly, what do you think is needed once, once the pope is gone?

RILEY YASNO: Absolutely. The doctrine of discovery needs to be repealed. That's something that's super easy for him to do, especially according to religion scholars. The other thing I would say is a. I think that I think it's ridiculous that at the end of the day, you know, we're going to spend it could be upwards of $100 million on this visit. And they have neglected to even pay the, you know, original 26, 28 million to pay. So I have to definitely in.

AG: Have to end this now. Thank you both for your thoughts and thoughtful conversation. Thank you both very much.

RILEY YASNO: Thank you.

ELLEN GABRIEL: You're welcome. Thank you.

RILEY YASNO: Raleigh as No, is an Anishinaabe writer and fellow at the Yellowhead Institute at the Toronto Metropolitan University. Ellen Gabriel is a mohawk activist and artist from Gunnison Doug, a nation turtle clan. And of course, you can get assistance. We know this can be triggering. You can call the Indian Residential School Survivors Line at 1 866 925 4419. Stay tuned to CBC News is next. Then a field of dreams will hear how a group of Saskatchewan Indians came together to protect a piece of the province's grasslands. I'm Anthony Germain in for Matt Galloway and you are listening to The Current.

AG: Hello. I'm Anthony Germain sitting in for Matt Galloway and you are listening to The Current.

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AG: In her early twenties, Anna maria Tremonti rushed to marry a man she thought was the perfect husband. But behind closed doors, a different person emerged, leaving Anna maria shocked and ashamed. Coming up, we'll bring you the second episode of the CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise. But first, we continue with the pontiff in the prairies. Pope Francis is halfway through his apology tour of Canada. And Catholics around the world are closely watching the head of their church on his pilgrimage of penance. For more insight into what this trip means for the papacy, I'm joined by Reverend Ricardo Da Silva. He is a Jesuit priest and an associate editor at America Media, as well as an associate pastor of the Church of Saint Francis Xavier in New York City. Reverend Silva, hello.

FATHER DA SILVA: Hi, Anthony. Good to be with you.

AG: Excellent to meet you. What what are your thoughts on Monday's apology from Pope Francis regarding the decades of abuse at residential schools?

FATHER DA SILVA: I think for me, the abiding sense that I had, you know, as I was listening to what was happening at Musko Park or Bear Park was every single time the pope said, I am sorry, there was an eruption of applause and shouts. But then that was coupled with the harrowing images on TV, at least, you know, for those of us watching it on television with people crying. I saw one woman leaning on another woman's shoulder, a tear falling down on her cheek. There were just such powerful images and words. That combination for me was marked and certainly remains with me still this morning.

AG: And certainly a very emotional time for so many of the people who were there, as well as people who are watching now. What are the issues as we follow the pope's pilgrimage is and the reaction to the apology, the pope didn't explicitly mention sexual abuse in his apology. Why do you think that was?

FATHER DA SILVA: Honestly, I don't know. I did find that curious as I you know, as I heard him mentioning two or three other forms of abuse, physical, emotional and sexual abuse was not mentioned. I can't speak for why that why that is the case. I simply don't know. I was as surprised as you are.

AG: And I think, you know, many leaders in indigenous communities are you know, they're grateful for the apology, but, you know, have pointed out that the Pope has actually apologised for that kind of behaviour in other instances. So I think it's one of those question marks so far in the visit.

FATHER DA SILVA: And in fact some of the language he used in that apology. I don't have it in front of me right now, but some of the language he used in that apology was taken directly from previous apologies made to victims of sexual abuse. So I would I would think that that that that language that that tenor of apology, of penance as as Pope Francis has put it, is is really what he is coming to this visit to Canada with.

AG: Now, you just zeroed in on penance, Reverend de Silva. And I guess I'd like to ask you, the Pope, I don't to be crass, but he's branded this as as a penitential pilgrimage. What does that mean?

FATHER DA SILVA: I think that that's really significant. Just very basically the penitent, the one who is penitent is the one in the Catholic tradition who would come before the priest to confess their sins. And and so for for the pope to say that he is on a penitential pilgrimage is to say that he is coming as one who has sinned, representing the worldwide Catholic Church. And he was clear repeatedly about this in his apology yesterday, talking about how the church has wronged the people, how the church needs the forgiveness. He said, I humbly beg forgiveness for the evil committed. You know, I affirm this with shame and unambiguously. And he repeatedly asked for forgiveness for the deplorable evil. And really, I think that that is what he is doing. He is coming, in each place that he will go. He he has heard the cry of indigenous people, first nations, Métis and Inuit when they met at the Vatican at the end of March and beginning of April earlier this year. And he repeats that in his apology. And he is now saying, and I am now coming to your land, as you have requested, moved by the sorrow and the pain of your people to ask for forgiveness for what this church has done. And he was very strong about that. You know, he referred to it as a disastrous error, catastrophic, and said that it was incompatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was unequivocal about the pain that the church has wrought and that some members of the church specifically have brought in the abuses they committed at Canada's and Canada's residential schools.

AG: Now, I think the language is remarkable, and I think that's why, you know, we're focussing on this, whether you're Catholic or not, as a historic moment. And I guess to put this in context, you paint such a. Such a great picture, almost as if he's entering the confessional, seeking absolution. Has he made a pilgrimage of this nature before?

FATHER DA SILVA: No. I would say that, you know, this is unique and this is pretty historic, at least to my memory that is the case. What I would say is equal to it in many ways, because he has listened repeatedly to victims of sexual abuse and to their experiences and sat in rooms and listened over and over to the horrors wrought by clerics of the church in the sexual abuse crisis all over the world. But that was at the Vatican for the most part. Right. And he has heard he has, of course, met with victims of sexual abuse every single time that he goes to a different country. That is usually one of the pilgrimages or stops he makes to meet with victims of abuse, but to actually come to a particular place for this very reason, this is unique.

AG: The personal nature of the pope's apology is one thing. But with respect to and I know some people think this is splitting hairs, but I think it's substantive. Is the apology his that is to say Francis's or is it genuinely an apology on behalf of the church? Because it doesn't seem as though he's actually apologising on behalf of the institution.

FATHER DA SILVA: I certainly thought that initially, you know, and if you read the apology, the beginnings of the apology certainly have many I statements. Because that's what people tend to look for is that kind of statements. And certainly indigenous people are asking for the Catholic Church to apologise for the systemic abuse of which it was a part. But if you look at the end, towards the end, you know, he says unequivocally, he says, in the face of this deplorable evil, the church kneels before God and implores his forgiveness for the sins of her children. I myself wish to reaffirm this with shame and unambiguously. And so he he makes it very clear that while this is his apology and while he has been offended personally by what he has heard, the abuses that have befallen the indigenous nations in Canada and in other parts, he is coming as a messenger of the Catholic Church and he says that the church kneels before God and implores his forgiveness. So I think that critique which which has not been seen before. Right. I don't think that he has spoken quite so definitely, attributing blame directly to the church as he did in that one sentence, at least in the sentence of his speech.

AG: If I could just, you know, shift your your analysis in a slightly different direction, although it's all connected. And I want to talk to you about the doctrine of Discovery, because one of the contentious points between the indigenous community and the church is this doctrine.

FATHER DA SILVA: Mm hmm.

AG: And as a Jesuit tackle thinker, and you look at the particulars of that doctrine, what is it?

FATHER DA SILVA: So, you know, it's difficult to say what it is as one thing, the doctrines of Christian discovery. It's a collection of papal teachings, really, papal letters authorising European white Christian discoveries around the 15th century, certainly beginning of the 15th century and probably into the 16th. That encouraged explorers, these white Christian men, by and large, to discover new lands and where they did not find the Christian faith being practised, that they claim them for the church, and therefore and then begin to convert or to begin an effort of conversion of those in those lands, indigenous peoples, as we now would refer to them in those lands to Christianity. And so it became this, you know, a way of rationalising European expansion and the Christian ification, if you will, of indigenous peoples. Right. Eradicating totally eradicating culture.

AG: And this is the doctrine that underlies what happened 500 years ago or more that wasn't addressed in the pope's remarks. Do you think that the pope or the Vatican intend to go there?

FATHER DA SILVA: Again, I think it's important to say, you know, while it wasn't addressed explicitly, repeatedly, the pope spoke about the system colonises and the way that that that entire apparatus is contrary to Christian teaching. And he said this, especially when he, you know, in his homily at Sacred Heart yesterday in Edmonton. So I think that's important to say. It is also important to say it is true. He has not said the church repudiates or rescinds the doctrine of discovery. Part of that is an open question. It's some people would say that the church has done that already through many statements. Matera Bruni, who's the director of the Vatican press office, he spoke about this last week. And and what he did say was that Pope Francis has requested that a study be done into this. And at least as of last week, Mr. Bruni was not sure whether that would be addressed explicitly on this visit, which may happen. But that certainly at at some point, the pope agreed to make a statement about this. Now, it's important to say that the pope is somebody who is not playing to PR stunts. We maybe want this to be a big public relations effort. And Pope Francis is not going to say something until he is absolutely sure that what he is going to say is all encompassing and covers the bases that he needs to cover. So he is very careful, I think, to make any pronouncements on the doctrine of Discovery until he has received this report that he has obviously commissioned.

AG: And I guess the very least, as you alluded to it, is on the Vatican's agenda, if nothing else.

FATHER DA SILVA: Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, several bishops have called for this here in the U.S. and Canada Religious Sisters, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, I think it was last year, called for this explicitly. So it is something that the pope and the Vatican are well aware of.

AG: And, you know, in terms of what we hear, indigenous leaders, you know, demanding as they try to address the damage of colonisation, I mean, I can't think of a stronger repudiation of colonialism than to actually denounce that doctrine. But I guess you and I will perhaps talk about that at some other time. I want to end the interview with one question for you, a broader one. What legacy do you do you think the pope wants to leave as a result of this visit to Canada?

FATHER DA SILVA: I think the pope is a man of powerful gestures. And and so what he is trying to show here is also modelling a Christian life for Christians, not only for those who don't practise the Christian faith, although for them, too, but for us who are Christians, which is basically to say this, I think he is saying. When we wrong, we fall down on our knees, as he explicitly put it, and we make an apology and we seek reparation. And that doesn't mean that that apology will be accepted or that we even have a right to to be forgiven. But we do have a Christian duty to attest to our wrong and to ask for forgiveness for that which we do. And I think that there's no more powerful way of him doing that than by placing his own feet on the indigenous soils of the indigenous peoples in Canada.

AG: Reverend Da Silva, really appreciate your thoughts on this. Thank you very much.

FATHER DA SILVA: Thank you. It was a pleasure to be with you.

AG: Reverend Ricardo Da Silva is a Jesuit priest and an associate editor at America Media, which is a ministry of the Jesuits of Canada and the United States.

How a Saskatchewan group pooled government rebates to buy and protect 600 hectares of grasslands;

Guests: Marc Spooner

AG: I'm Anthony Germain, sitting in for Matt Galloway and you are listening to The Current. They are a refuge for endangered species and a reservoir for more than a billion tons of carbon. But they are also very easy to overlook. Talking about Canada's grasslands, as much as, get this 90% of these lands have been lost over the past 150 years to agriculture and development. But in Saskatchewan, a small group has banded together to help protect and preserve a parcel of grass spanning more than 600 hectares or about 1500 acres. Marc Spooner is the lead organiser of that group, which he calls the Field of Dreams. He's also a professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Regina. And this morning he joins us from Cypress Hills, Saskatchewan, where he's camping. Hello, Mark.

MARC SPOONER: Good morning.

AG: Sorry to disturb whatever you're frying up there. You must love the outdoors. You're out there. So obviously wildlife grasslands, not just an academic interest. How does your own personal interest in the outdoors help you with a project like Preserving Grasslands?

MARC SPOONER: Well, definitely my own interest helped. And, you know, the more you learn about nature and the delicate balance of ecosystems, you can't help but want to be part of it. Which which we are now.

AG: Field of Dreams. Catchy name. How did this initiative start?

MARC SPOONER: Well, got to Saskatchewan government insurance out here. Our Car Insurance Crown Corporation had decided to give us back $275. This was really unexpected. So my initial thoughts were, well, you know, that money's going to help people make ends meet. But for some of us, maybe wouldn't it be neat if we pulled that money together and did a collective project? And at that time, I didn't really you know, I didn't really think I'd get anybody. But I started a Facebook group. I simply called it Let's Do Something Together with our SGI rebates. And I thought I'd be lucky and get about 75 people. But in the end, I got close to a thousand people.

AG: Well, that's remarkable. Everyone's complaining about the price of things. You get an extra couple hundred dollars, $100 from the government. People are giving you that money.

MARC SPOONER: But kind of yeah, we I put it out there and at the time I didn't even know what project we take. So I said, Hey, why don't people suggest different projects? The only catch is if you suggest a project, you have to be willing to see it through, so you'll have to take the lead on it. There's no just given, you know, different ideas, but then walking away.

AG: Now it's got your to do something with that. Why why do you think people were willing to donate their rebate checks to you?

MARC SPOONER: You know, I think a lot of people were feeling isolated. This was a year ago during the sort of height of isolation and COVID. I think people were really longing to do something as a community, to feel like community spirit. And so I think I just hit a nerve where people are like, yes, let's do it. We can organise safely all over Facebook and then collectively do something that would leave a lasting legacy. And we picked the grasslands eventually. I originally wanted to save the boreal forest. I thought that was an endangered ecosystem. But in speaking with the great people at Nature Conservancy of Canada, they explained to me that actually right there in your backyard in southern Saskatchewan, the grasslands are one of the most endangered ecosystems, even more so than the rainforest.

AG: So what did they bring to the table? The National Conservatory of Canada?

MARC SPOONER: Well, they made it happen. I got to. I have nothing but great things to say about Nature Conservancy of Canada. I approached several groups because now I had a large group of people willing to give their money away, and we had to find an organisation that could really do that. Someone that could acquire the land, conserved the land, and maintain it into the future. And Nature Conservancy of Canada were wonderful in every regard there. They're such a neat organisation. They're able to get local indigenous community involved and they're guided by them. They have ranchers involved and environmentalists. They can bring those three groups together.

AG: So for those of us in this part of the country, the East explained the significance of these grasslands and why it's important to protect them.

MARC SPOONER: Well, the grasslands, like you said in your intro there, there's only about a roughly 12-17% left of untouched natural grasslands. And they're home to many different species, many endangered species, just like the land that we were able to conserve will now be a safe haven for those different plants and animals. And and like you mentioned, it is a carbon sink as well. But for our project, we just wanted a legacy, something that we could bring our children to. Or I was I walked that very land with my kids and I was thinking that their kids, if they had them, could walk this land as well and know that, you know, in 2021, 2022, a group of people with a crazy dream decided to leave a lasting legacy. And we did it.

AG: And you obviously have a talent for this and also a talent for getting people to give you money. Why ask a question when you talked about the kind of gobsmacking numbers in the introduction about the loss of grasslands, what led to so much erosion of Saskatchewan's grasslands over the years?

MARC SPOONER: Well, I think it's a neglected piece of the ecosystem. It's maybe not initially. I tell you, learn about it as sexy as the rainforest. But but then I guess the other part is farming. A big large agricultural farming is one one piece that, you know, breaks up the natural prairie.

AG: Now you managed to purchase and acquire this land where there were challenges and obstacles along the way.

MARC SPOONER: You know, in the end, there weren't too many. Nature Conservancy of Canada did a lot of the hard work when I approached them. They said, It's going to take time. I think that was the biggest piece it took a year from the time we started collecting money and gathering that money until they were able to acquire land. They tell me they use a balance of science and art to figure out which lands that are available or people have approached them through a private sale. And then the need part about a two that I learnt is it's not the size of the land so much as does it play an important role, like is it a corridor between already protected land and such.

AG: So you managed to get the land took a long time and the fundraising and all that. So take me to that moment when you were there and you realise, okay, we got this. What was that like?

MARC SPOONER: That was an incredible feeling that I would hope that everyone can feel that sense of community and accomplishment, that we're leaving this lasting, fragile ecosystem to all the, you know, future plants and animals and children and sasko scout unions and all the Canada. Really, we're leaving that legacy. It was so neat to walk the land to be able to hear the songs of the birds. To see the cacti beneath our feet and the different other flora and fauna. It was a real neat sense of accomplishment and the kind of good feeling you get when you've done something collectively together that will last for generations.

AG: And I gather that everybody else involved, whether it was conservatory and all the other, they must have been feeling pretty much the same kind of joy.

MARC SPOONER: Well, it was really needed. I think it was on a Wednesday afternoon. They had about 70 or 80 people out there just on a, you know, not kind of short notice. They got to 70 or 80 people to take their day off and come walk the land. And they had great tours, different elders were there, different knowledge keepers and bird experts and other environmentalists were all there to help us understand what it is that we did preserve.

AG: Now, the name Saskatchewan Field of Dreams. I'm assuming you're a Costner fan.

MARC SPOONER: Well, baseball is always good, but in this case, I thought, well, we're we are protecting a field. We're in Saskatchewan. We're Dreamers. For a while, they called us the SGI Dreamers, the Saskatchewan government insurance dreamers, because I thought it was maybe going to be myself having this crazy dream. But it turns out Saskatchewan is replete with other crazy dreamers, too.

AG: Well, congratulations on your success. It sounds as though, you know, you're absolutely thrilled you think other people can learn from from what you've managed to achieve, because, as you mentioned, there are so many environmental causes. I only have 30 seconds on that. But what advice would you give to people who might have a crazy dream?

MARC SPOONER: Put it out there. Put it out there. And it doesn't only have to be environmental. You can get us, you know, see the need in your community and try to get people together to help provide solutions to that need. And boy, action feels good. I often critique things as a professor and scholar, but especially public policy. But when you actually do something, it feels great.

AG: All right. Well, listen, I will let you get back to your tents and your camping in Cypress Hills. Thanks a lot for joining us.

MARC SPOONER: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

AG: You, too. That's Marc Spooner, professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Regina. He is also a lead organiser in the grassroots group Saskatchewan Field of Dreams, which helped raise money to purchase more than 600 hectares or about 1500 acres of grassland in Saskatchewan to be preserved for future generations, such as his children, as you heard him mention, and we bothered him at his campsite, Cypress Hills, Saskatchewan. Well, coming up after your regional update.

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I go to the bathroom and I close the door and I, I look at my back and my back was already bruised and I thought, wow, I bruise so easily and I don't bruise easily. You know, it scared me.

AG: Anna Maria Tremonti was left stunned and bruised when her then husband hit her for the first time. We'll have episode two of her podcast, Welcome to Paradise.

Episode two of Welcome to Paradise

AG: I'm Anthony Germain in St. John's sitting in for Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. We've been presenting the CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise. Renowned Canadian journalist and former host of the current Anna Maria Tremonti is breaking a 48 year long silence on her past experience with intimate partner violence. Here she is with episode two. It's called See What You Made Me Do and a warning. The following deals with descriptions of violence.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I have this picture. It sits in a slim brown velvet photo album, which I almost never open. It's from the day I eloped. I'm 23 years old. I've got a pixie haircut and I'm holding a bouquet of yellow roses at my side. My flowing white chiffon dress has been caught by the wind and is billowing around my new husband, Pat, who holds me close. We're smiling not just because we're happy, but because we think we're so clever. We've just climbed a fence to stand in a cow pasture next to one of those big signs you see on the outskirts of small towns. This one says, Welcome to Paradise. It's the perfect photo op. And we're the perfect couple. Looking at that photo, I remember the thrill of that day, the promise of what lay ahead of us. I can still feel a little bit of what it was like to be that giddy bride. To be that happy. And then I stop. And stare at my younger self and I think, Oh, honey. You have no idea.

[Music]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: For years. I couldn't even look at that picture. But I couldn't get rid of it either. I still find it hard to look at that smiling bride. I've been talking this through with my therapist, Farzana.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm trying to talk about how this happened. But I'm. I'm finding it really hard to go back to that 23 year old and remember how she might have felt. And to confront that, I think, has been really difficult in writing this podcast. I just find some of it excruciating, you know, and--.

FARZANA: Excruciating in what way?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That person who was me then was so insecure on so many levels. I didn't have a lot of experience with men, and so most women my age were far more sophisticated than me. I think that was also part of my shame that I was. Oh, you know.

FARZANA: Other people know more than me.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. And I was in a rush to love and to fall in love. But I don't really want to admit to that about that 23 year old. She's still with me, you know?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When I look back. The details of the abuse I experienced are crystal clear. They crowd out any of their happy memories, any of the reasons that young bride would have to be smiling?

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FARZANA: That would be a good thing to ask her. Does she not want to remember the good stuff?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Like, I don't know, like maybe the good stuff that. I thought it was good stuff. Never was. When I had the benefit of hindsight, I never thought there was anything good about it. There had to be something I wouldn't have- I wouldn't have said, Oh, yeah, I'm going to elope with a guy who's going to beat me. Like, I wouldn't have done that. So I had to. I had this sense of promise. I had this sense of excitement. But beyond that, I don't know what I had.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I've decided to go to the people I was closest with back then, to mine their memories of me at that age. My friends Sue and Vance.

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SUE: We're going to roast these babies.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay. How long do you roast them?

SUE: So you got to admit, it's.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Like Smarties.

SUE: Sort of.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You know, those friends, the ones you can pick up a conversation with as if you saw them yesterday, even though it's been years.

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VANS: I think 20 minutes at 450.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: For me, that's Sue and Vance. Oh, stop pretending you know how to cook. They lived next door when Pat and I first moved into an apartment in Halifax before he and I were married. The four of us hung out all the time.

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SUE: A question that I have for you is how did how how did it all begin with the two of you?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I met him at work. I met him at CKC thought he was interesting and fun. I mean, he was. He'd been in Nelson and he'd moved home.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When Pat and I first met, I thought he was impossibly handsome. Tall and lean with powerful arms. Arms that looked like they could enfold me. Protect me. He had just moved back home to the East Coast after a hitchhiking trip out west. He had all these adventure stories with odd people he'd met, like escaping a driver who tried to rob him. Everything he did impressed me. Even when it probably shouldn't have.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I remember after he had it, he had an Irish setter and he would say, I was I was a run of the dog on the Mel Murphy Beach. And I thought, wow, that's a lot. You must be a good runner. Then I realised he let the dog out and he drove the car along the road and we were friends and I think just over time I fell for him.

SUE: And was it a mutual falling for each other? Did he pursue you or was it a one sided attraction?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You know, I was kind of stunted at age, you know, when I met him. To be honest, I hadn't dated a lot, so I liked him and I kind of started falling for him. And we stayed friends.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Stunted is probably too strong of a word, but there really was so much I didn't know. Growing up, my world was pretty small. I was raised Catholic with protective Italian parents in a small city, Windsor, Ontario, on the U.S. border with Detroit. I had friends. I had lots of cousins around me. But I still always felt a little bit detached. I spent a lot of time in my own head. I was the kid huddled in her room reading, writing poetry. I was also pretty single minded. I went to my local university cramming four years into three just so I could get out into the world. But it was a world I wasn't entirely ready for.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I had a boss who basically - it's a long story but basically told me if I didn't sleep with him, he'd fire me.

VANS: All, for God's sake.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And I remember it because he had taken me to a bar for a drink. And I thought, Oh, I've arrived. I'm having a drink with my boss in a bar. No clue. Right.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: After working for a bit at that first radio station, I moved to another province for what I thought would be a better job. The boss there told me I was terrible and that he'd help me improve. But he'd need something in return. I called Pat in a panic and he convinced me to move back east. He told me about a job in Fredericton, not far from him. And that was fun. Crazy long work hours and lots of play. Pat would visit. We'd party into the night every night at a trendy bar called the Cosmo Club, all dark lighting and late seventies dance music. I always felt so alive around pat for the first time, I felt like I belonged. Our relationship was still platonic, but I was definitely getting attached. And so when he got a TV job in Halifax and suggested I go with him, I was happy to. Right away. I landed an even better job, too, and that's when we moved into an apartment next door to Sue and Vans.

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SUE: I could see that his personality was such that he was certainly not a conventional or, you know, kind of straight arrow, live your life on the straight and narrow. I mean, there was some impulsiveness.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: There was I loved I love that spontaneity. Like, why not? And he was that kind of person. And I was really taken with that like that. I didn't have that spontaneity in my life.

SUE: Is that what attracted you to him?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Probably. Probably.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Our life together was ambiguous. At the time, I felt like we were this cool couple in a lot of ways. Maybe we were. I was getting up at 4:00 a.m. for morning radio. He was doing late night TV news. In between, we were suddenly out in the middle of a lake, fishing or buying a motorcycle or jumping in the car on a whim to go camping. So that was fun. But Pat was moody. He could be quiet and hard to read, and sometimes he'd take off into the night. When I'd ask where he'd been, he wouldn't tell me. We were sharing a bed, but our sex life was ambiguous, too. We weren't actually having sex. He told me he wanted to wait. And I was thinking why? I knew he'd had partners before. I'd never really had a boyfriend, and I was mortified that I was still a virgin. I felt rejected and didn't know what to do. But I kept it all to myself. And I've always wondered if I had actually talked about this to someone, my mom, Sue. Would any of what followed have ever happened?

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FARZANA: Let's just ask something of the 23 year old. So. There was this interesting match that was coming your way. Did it seem like a good prospect? A good plan, a good future.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It did. Yeah, it just.

FARZANA: So she made a good decision based on the information she had.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: She did.

FARZANA: Yeah. She saw a good looking person, somebody who had a lot in common with her.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. Or at least you know who who fit into my almost like a fantasy or my belief of what I thought I wanted for myself. I don't know. Maybe I always wanted a big life. But he fit something. It seemed like I could go forward in the world with him. And yeah, you know, I could. I could have a partner and I could have children and I could go out in the world because he would come out in the world with me. Everything was a spontaneous adventure with Pat. Anything was possible. One evening as we sat around after dinner. He suggested we elope. We hadn't actually talked about marriage before, and I wasn't one of those girls who'd spent my childhood fantasising about a wedding. I was so taken with him, I thought, fantastic, let's do it. Pat arranged everything. I did nothing except by a dress a few days before and on the day we headed down the highway early toward the Annapolis Valley. Tag teaming the few friends we'd asked to join us as witnesses. At one point, as we passed their car waving, I put a paper bag on my head so they couldn't see the bride. The whole day felt like a lark. We exchanged skinny gold rings in a judge's backyard, and instead of promising to love, honour and obey, which was normal back then, we said we'd love honour and humour. Keeping it a secret from our families was Pat's idea. I thought it was hopelessly romantic.

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VANS: I thought I was quite crazy myself.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That's Vans again.

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VANS: Because, you know, I thought we were starting to build a relationship, and I thought at least we would have been given a heads up at some point. But anyway, I thought it was a bit reckless.

SUE: It was just a very different style to what we were used to with our.

VANS: Relationship.

SUE: Our relationship and people, people we knew at that time, you know. But it, you know, we were all kind of finding her space at that ,at that point.

VANS: But she had the class to get married in paradise.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, yeah. Welcome to Paradise.

VANS: We have a picture of that somewhere.

SUE: It's a picture in front of the sign.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. Yeah. That picture. That weekend carried a lot of significance. It was Thanksgiving 1980, and it was also my parents wedding anniversary. And so even though I'd promised Pat I'd keep it a secret. I called my mom a few days before. I wanted her blessing. She was surprised. Knowing her, she probably wanted to talk me out of it. But knowing me then, she knew better than to try.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He was really mad at me that I told my mom it was supposed to be a big secret. We agreed it would be a big secret.

SUE: Did you agree?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That's the question. I got really defensive about it like. No, I'm sorry. I'm telling my mom.

SUE: As any woman.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I didn't, I didn't back down on that at all no. And of course, I didn't see it as a bigger control issue at the time.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I don't want to cut too much of this off. I can always make it shorter, but it can make it longer.

FATHER: Whatever.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That's my dad stealing himself for one of my haircuts.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I saw some pictures of you from when you were younger. Just like your hair stood straight up.

FATHER: That was the style.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. No, no.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: My mom is no longer alive, but my dad is in his late nineties. All my friends think he's amazing and he is memory like a steel trap. He still makes furniture in his shop and he has a full head of wavy silver hair, which is slowly piling up on the floor. .

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When you first saw me, what did you think?

FATHER: Well, your my baby girl.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Did you have any special hopes for me?

FATHER: I sure hope you have the best life in the world.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When I was growing up. Did you worry that you would have to protect me from getting hurt by somebody?

FATHER: No, because it was a different time, Anna Maria. I was a different time. We were not afraid of silly things that. You can give your doors open. You know, nobody, very few people lock the doors. I don't think we were afraid of anything.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Did you know about anybody? When I was growing up, who was like who was beating their wife?

FATHER: No, I didn't know anybody.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: No, no, nobody.

FATHER: I know people that [unintelligible]. But I never heard of anybody hitting the wives or beating their wives. Never did.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: If my mom was still alive, that's a question I'd ask her. When I was younger, she and I clashed a lot, but we were still close. We talked about everything or almost everything. One of the things I never asked her and really wish I had now was what she made of my marriage. But I think at the time I didn't want to know. Or maybe was afraid to know what she thought.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When you first met Pat, what did you think of him?

FATHER: Oh, he was friendly guy. I thought he was a nice guy.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, on many levels, he was a very nice guy. When you met him, he was a nice guy.

FATHER: We had a nice little reception down in the basement here.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He didn't. You didn't meet him before then?

FATHER: No. You just came to marry you.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Like in the movies.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: A few months after our wedding, Pat and I visited my parents. We had another ceremony in their living room. The priest came and sacrament allies to our marriage, making it official in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Afterwards, my parents had a little reception for close relatives. I was so excited about introducing Pat to my family that I was oblivious to what they saw.

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FATHER: The ceremony at home was you were already married. Okay. Pat, apparently went to confession. So the priest said to your mom, I shouldn't marry you, but you're already married. So I performed the ceremony.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Why? Because Pat went to confession and told him something.

FATHER: Maybe, maybe.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And because of what he knew, he wouldn't have married us.

FATHER: Now, he said he wouldn't marry you. He wouldn't. Maybe the priest asked him questions. You know, they pry into people's privacy, too. But he said if he wouldn't have been married, he would have refused it.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You never told me that, ever.

FATHER: Well, I didn't thought, because Anna Maria, we figure if we tell you anything, we are going to [unintelligible] the situation. Because, you know, we could tell there was something wrong.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I am stunned hearing this. What did Pat say at confession? Why didn't the priest think we ought to be married? I'd entered my marriage full of big hopes for my future. But my parents sensed something was off. Before the beatings even started.

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FATHER: We came to visit to a new [unintelligible] with Pat. And that night when we came home, your mother told me something is not working. She saw there was no nothing between you and Pat. She said there is something that working properly. To me, I didn't notice it, but she did.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: To hear my dad tell me this all these years later makes me cringe.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It makes me feel so naive, so stupid. Like, why? What didn't I see?

FATHER: A part of you is really judging yourself for this. Like a part of you probably knows this is how it happens. You know, it's incremental. Like, you know, all the theory, but a part of you is telling yourself that you were stupid.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I didn't see this stuff. I didn't see what other people saw.

FATHER: And you're expecting yourself to have had that ability.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It's been hard for me to let that 23 year old off the hook. I keep wanting to confront her, to say, What were you thinking? As if there were red flags waving all around me, warning me of the violence up ahead. If only.

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FATHER: So let's let's show a little compassion to the 23 year old. This could have been a situation where a 23 year old, you had a bunch of insecurities, you saw some promise, and you had a fantastic, great match and a great relationship forevermore. It could have gone that way. Right?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. I think it could have if it was a different person. But if not, if it was a different me. If it was a different him.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: In the weeks after coming home from our second ceremony, there were stretches when Pat would completely withdraw. He wouldn't talk to me. Wouldn't include me in his plans. I felt ignored, pushed aside suddenly. I didn't understand. And one day late in the afternoon on a Friday. I tried to make it better.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I remember the first time that he turned on me. He had been very quiet. He was kind of in his own space. And I really sense that something was wrong. And I wanted him to talk to me. And he just burst. And he takes a hot pot of coffee, and he throws it at me. And I turn. And I feel the coffee hit my back and my back is all wet. And now he's hitting me with his fists and he's saying something to me. I don't know what he's saying, but he's hitting me with his fists and he's hitting me and hitting me. And I'm crunched over and I'm thinking, it's almost like slow motion now. And I'm thinking like, what's happening? No one's ever done this to me, and I don't understand what he's doing to me. And I think it hurts. But it's not about that. It hurts. It's that. It's just such. On a front and I don't know why and I don't move. And he just keeps hitting me and then he stops. I go to the bathroom and I close the door and I. I look at my back, and my back was already bruised. And I thought, wow, I bruise so easily. I don't bruise easily, you know.

FATHER: But it really hurt that day.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. Yeah, but I had never seen that. And I remember it scared me.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Even though I understood that his hitting me was wrong and that I was being hurt by the force of his fists. I didn't understand at the time that he was inflicting a more lasting injury.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He then told me not right away, probably, I think maybe a few hours later that I had like, see what you made me do? Like literally see what you made me do. You drove me to this, like, so it was, it was about like, look what I did. I misbehaved. And I believed him. And right there. I bent to the power of his words. Look what I made him do. Look what I made him do.

AG: You've been listening to Episode two of the CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise, hosted by Anna Maria Tremonti. We'll continue tomorrow with episode three. L Is For Love is the name of that episode. Well, that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Rupi Kaur has reached millions of people around the world by sharing her short visual poetry on Instagram. She's now a number one New York Times bestselling author, and last year, The New Republic named her the writer of the Decade. Rupi Kaur joins Talia Schlanger to talk about her new live show and how performing saved her life. I'm Anthony Germain, sitting in for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

The Current Transcript for July 27, 2022

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Pope’s ‘pilgrimage of penance’ continues across Canada

How a Saskatchewan group pooled government rebates to buy and protect 600 hectares of grasslands;

Episode two of Welcome to Paradise

Wednesday July 27, 2022 Full Transcript

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