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The Current Transcript for July 26, 2019

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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CHEIF HARVEY YESNO: It's a slow poison of sustained exposure and it could cause ovarian, cancer bladder cancer...

LAURA LYNCH: In Northern Ontario Chief Harvey Yesno has issued a state of emergency for his people after years of struggling with boil water advisories and worse. Now the water is yellow, it smells and tests show it contains unsafe levels of chemicals. This week the Assembly of First Nations is urging Ottawa to do more and quickly to fix water quality in dozens of Indigenous communities. Problems that have plagued them for decades. After that.

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SOPHIA MATHUR: Climate change is going to cause droughts, heat waves, hurricanes, tornadoes and that's going to affect people's lives! And I don't understand why we're not doing anything.

LL: Sophia Mathur can't vote in Canada yet, but she and other young people fearing the effects of climate change walked out of school earlier this year in a global day of action. Their goal? To push the older generation to take action. We'll revisit my conversation with Sophia and other young activists from the United Kingdom and the United States. After that, the conclusion of our special series - One Bullet.

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DR. PAOLA FATA: How do you talk to the family? What are the consequences on that person? You know, was there a spinal cord injury? And now their life is completely different from what they knew just the day before.

LL: Paola Fata sees the damage up close - the lives taken or altered forever. She's a trauma surgeon and in the emergency room she's on the frontlines facing the immediate, devastating consequences of gun violence. One bullet, one person at a time. But we begin today with the hunt for two teenage murder suspects now focussed on the Bush and bog in northern Manitoba. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the Summer Edition of The Current.

Canada-wide pursuit for fugitives in B.C. killings is distinct from other landmark searches: criminologist

Guests: Michael Arntfield

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JULIE COURCHAINE: This is very challenging terrain. This is a large area. There's lots of dense bush, forests, swampy area.

LL: That's RCMP Corporal Julie Courchaine detailing what police are facing as they continue the manhunt now targeting parts of northern Manitoba. It's a search that's caught the attention of the world. The two fugitives are Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky wanted in connection with three homicides in British Columbia. And they are considered dangerous. The pair was last spotted on Monday around Gillam, Manitoba. The car they had been driving was found torched on Monday night and police believe the pair are still in the area. For more on what goes into tracking suspects. I'm joined by Michael Arntfield, a professor and a criminologist at the University of Western Ontario. He's also a former police officer and we have reached him in Toronto. Hello.

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Hello. Good morning. Thanks for having me back on.

LL: Tell me what what goes through your mind as you're watching this manhunt unfold?

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: So a number of things. First of all, fortunately we don't see a lot of manhunts of this scale in Canada where there's an imminent and ongoing threat to public safety and to officer safety. I mean, we really sort of think of the U.S. when we think about this and the bulletins go out and inevitably it doesn't take too long before someone sees the suspects. Usually on an interstate or travelling. This is a little bit different in that they're in a remote area where they're not likely to be encountered or likely to be seen. And that really leads me to question, and this I've talked with some of my police and academic colleagues about this, the purpose for torching their most recent stolen car - they're looking at three counts of murder. I'm not sure what they're concerned about in terms of being tied to a stolen car that would necessitate burning it and destroying that evidence. So it begs the question is there evidence of other crimes yet to be discovered that were in that car that they wanted to eliminate, or conversely for some reason? Well we don't know what they were thinking because in actuality it's had the reverse effect. Torching the car has essentially expedited its being recovered and identified and helped police zero in on their position much more quickly than if they had just abandon it.

LL: OK. But just let's just clarify things. So they've been charged in one murder and are suspects in two other murders.

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Right

LAURA LYNCH: What does that tell you then about, if anything, the fact that they did torch the car about what kind of people they are, how much experience they have, what they're trying to do here?

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Well it could be. Again this is all speculative because this is a fluid, ongoing situation and we don't really know much about them yet. There's not as fulsome a snapshot as there was of some other offenders who we've sought in a similar fashion. I'm thinking, for instance, Justin Bourque in Moncton just five years ago. But it could speak to inexperience and that they panicked and they torched their last vehicle and they thought this is what you do when you dump a stolen car or a dropped car. Or it could be an attempt, much like I think was what happened last time, to eliminate or obfuscate forensic evidence of something more serious. The outside possibility is that, in fact, this is the end of the line and torching of the vehicle was in fact to alert authorities to their position in order for them to dig in if in fact the theory proffered by the one suspect's father has any merit that this is essentially a one-way trip.

LL: That this is the end of the line for them.

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Right.

LL: I was living in Washington D.C. during the sniper attacks in 2002. And you touched on this, this is more normal in the United States. But I wonder how a situation like that compares to this.

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: So it's interesting you mentioned that. I've used the D.C. sniper case as sort of a decoder ring to help make sense of this current situation and I think a lot of people are grappling with the concept of two male acquaintances or friends going out and doing this. And I mean when we look at what was call "teen killers", so that's two or more offenders working in tandem, they do tend to fit certain prescribed model whereby two younger males of the same age committing what in this case of the other crimes can be connected would actually constitute serial murder versus mass murder. Then we see the D.C. sniper case sort of come into focus in that they were serial killers, two males. In that case there was an age difference that allowed for the senior, John Allen Muhammad, to exercise a considerable degree of influence and control over Lee Malvo, the younger one. And inevitably when we look at about 120 teen killers over the last century there is without exception one person, typically the male in the group if they're not both males, who exercises... who is essentially the mastermind. Able to exercise either through coercion or persuasion or manipulation, considerable control over the second. We also know that there is a lesser known disorder called "hybristophilia". This is 1 of about 500 called "paraphilias" which are disordered fantasy preoccupations whereby even if it's two males who are heterosexual or have no interest in any kind of relationship of that nature, there is a sort of intimacy or bond that gets formed through the commission of violence that actually galvanizes that relationship. And now traditionally we would look at this disorder as involving females seeking out males, so like the Karla Homolka Bernardo scenario. But we now understand it would apply in situations such as this.

LL: OK let let's go back then to what we certainly know about what police are doing right now and that is they're trying to search this wide swath of area that is boggy and buggy and difficult. So what are the challenges that the police are facing in dealing with this kind of terrain?

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Well every terrain offers its own challenges and in a built environment, as we call it, an urban terrain would offer multiple points of concealment and camouflage for an offender who's sort of hunkering down. But there's also the infrastructure there to assist law enforcement, whether it be cameras, whether it be, you know, other people and other sets of eyes to assist them. In this case we have a challenging time just to navigate and search properly much less than do so safely. So there's a number of challenges both in terms of logistics and in terms of mobilizing officers who can actually cover the area given the head start these two individuals have, assuming they're still there. Again this is all speculative. But in addition to that you have again a, I would say, offender-friendly environment whereby there again they don't know the area necessarily, although based on what we're seeing and hearing they do have some interest again in paramilitary and survival techniques. So this is again a location where it poses significant risks to the police officers who are going out there and trying to find these people.

LL: What about risks to the people in the community?

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: That's always a concern naturally. So again, I'll go back to Justin Bourque. I mean he's found largely by way of, and I don't know if they have drones up or if they have surveillance yet in that area, but he was cut back in Moncton basically hunkering down beside a civilian's window and eventually surrenders when they zero in on him in that position. And he had come out of the woods ostensibly looking to change his point of concealment. And we don't know what his intentions were. But the fact that they can always, again, come out into a populated area, re-emerge and change their tactics whether it be you enter a home or try to access another vehicle or person, even. That's always an ongoing fluid risk as well.

LL: Based on based on what you know and have studied, what is likely to be the impact on the mental state of these two young men the longer this goes on?

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Well this is why, and I think this was a good move, the RCMP have confirmed that they brought out a crisis and hostage negotiator. They typically just go by the name crisis negotiators now. And that's because the longer this drags are the inevitable fatigue factor will be a sort of leverage point for police if they can make a peaceful contact and to begin negotiations. Ultimately, like most standoffs, the longer it goes on essentially the possible resolutions begin to polarize in one of two directions: either a surrender because they're out of food, they're fatigued, it's no longer sustainable and they're willing to exercise some sort of reasonableness in that respect; or they just become further entrenched and dig in their heels more and it becomes... again, a final stand. So all variables or all options are in play but the longer it goes on the more likely you are to see one of these two extreme outcomes.

LL: All right. We will continue to watch this. Thank you very much for your time.

MICHAEL ARNTFIELD: Thanks for having me.

LL: Michael Arntfield is a professor and criminologist at the University of Western Ontario and he's also a former police officer. He is in Toronto.

Water crisis plunges Eabametoong First Nation

Guest: Chief Harvey Yesno

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NATIONAL CHIEF PERRY BELLEGARDE: It's essential to meet the real needs of our people. And we do want our people to be better off. So we've said we've got to make water a priority. Let's get it done and deal with once and for all.

LL: That's the Assembly of First Nations National Chief Perry Bellegarde speaking in Fredericton this week. Water safety in remote Indigenous communities was at the top of the agenda when he and other First Nations chiefs from across Canada met at the AFN's annual General Assembly which wrapped up yesterday. Two northern Ontario First Nations communities have declared states of emergency because of toxic drinking water. On July the 7th the community Attawapiskat on the shores of James Bay issued a crisis warning after high levels of chemicals were found in its water. The Ojibwe community of Eabametoong, 360 kilometres north of Thunder Bay, later followed suit also reporting high levels of toxic chemicals. This means that bottled water is now being flown into the 15 hundred residents there. They've lived under a boil water advisory for 18 years. Harvey Yesno is the chief. Chief Yesno, hello.

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Hello.

LL: I wonder, first of all, if you can tell me what the water looks like when you turn on the taps there today.

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Well it depends on the day. Sometimes it's kind of yellowish. And most people are not actually using that anymore because yesterday the reverse osmosis units were found to be contaminated as well.

LL: So that means there's absolutely there's no potable water in the community at all right now?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Well there's some small R.O. units, reverse osmosis units, in other buildings. But the ones that we've were using for community consumption, we had three, one was down for repairs or parts. We had those tested several days ago and we found there's contamination, bacterial contamination. So we've stopped using them. We're hoping that maybe it's just a servicing issue. If not then...it'll take us some time to ensure that water's going to be good for consumption.

LL: And when you talk about reverse osmosis, this is the kind of water purification?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Yes. Those were installed because it was part of this boil water advisory that we've had for 18 years. [inaudible] ...so that was kind of like a stopgap. They did bring in bottled water for a period of time until these units were in place. And so since that time the people have been using these units for water, for cooking or consumption.

LL: So you've been under a boil water advisory for 18 years. Why did you declare a state of emergency earlier this month?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: It's more than just the water. We've got a new water treatment plant that is soon going to be commissioned. It's going to be a chemical- a water treatment plant. And I think for me being a leader here, having seen the reports that we've had sustained elevated levels of THM's and HAA's which is 51-98% above what's allowable. This is unacceptable, you know? This is sustained, you know. 18 years and I have asked some health officials about what is the effects of long term, and I said- I asked them layman's terms tell me. They said it could be 20 years. It's a slow poison of sustained exposure and you know that could cause ovarian cancer, bladder cancer. I said okay when I got that information they said "no, even though our plant may be soon commissioned and that's the minister's response" but that's just one issue. We were already warned a month ago that plant is going to be putting more water into our system into a wastewater system which is going to cause even more pressure on the lift stations which were not constructed properly in 1990s. That's the other issue with this state of emergency. And the third one is to do with our power. We've got a diesel generated power. We've got aging, you know, they're already at the end of the life cycle and we've been having frequent power outages. So when I saw all of that, you know I mean, there's nowhere else this thing would be tolerated anywhere in the country. You know [they're] kind of three essential services that people depend on 24/7. But here we are almost going on two decades, you know?

LL: So just to go back to the first part that you mentioned about the chemical that are in the water - the THM's and the HAA's that you mentioned - they contaminants, by-products of disinfection. That's one of the primary reasons why you declared the state of emergency and now you're having, as you said, the fly in water for 1600 people by airplane because you're not reachable by road, correct?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: That's right.

LL: How much is that costing you?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: This is an emergency. We didn't even bother looking at the cost because we're getting close to the water treatment plant being commissioned and so we... when it comes to emergency we don't care too much about the cost. You know, we've got to get it in. We're trying to truck it in to the furthest point so it's the least amount of cost. Now it's getting to the point wherever we can get water we'll fly it from there.

LL: We've all seen the images of that little girl in Attawapiskat covered in sores because of contaminated water. I'm wondering what you thought when you saw that photograph.

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Well I see the same thing here with our children. I've gone to the nursing station and I don't need to see Attawapiskat. We see that or hear ourselves, you know?

LL: The Assembly of First Nations has been meeting in New Brunswick this week and they are asking for new legislation on water issues. Do you think that'll be enough to fix problems like the ones in your community?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: Well probably for the long term it would because I think it's both, you know, the cost of construction, of infrastructure. That's the challenge then. But once you've built these new systems in place, and that's going to be our concern, we've got to make sure on the operation and maintenance you've built these beautiful facilities and infrastructure. But then we get nickel and dimed on your operation and maintenance where those are not looked after very well.

LL: So you're outlining a complex and related set of problems this new water treatment plant isn't going to be up and running around the corner in any event. What does the federal government need to be doing right now to help you and the state of emergency?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: I think on the interim the immediate thing - we hope to bring bottled water right now. It's unfortunate. I know it's costly. We have to ensure that the steps are properly taken. The transition from where we are right now, state of emergency, to the point where our people will trust using the water, even with the new plant being in place.

LL: For those of us, the vast majority of us Canadians who won't be able to ever come to your community, what do you want them to understand, Canadians to understand, about the toll this is taking on the people who live there?

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: I think one of the things is like you know there's standards in this country that have been approved by authorities. And all we're saying is that as a people here, you know, that we should not have to worry about the safety and quality of water and systems, you know, that every every Canadian enjoys. If this is not taken care of we will remember this one when you want gold or diamonds or whatever is on the ground here.

LL: Chief Yesno, I thank you for your time.

CHIEF HARVEY YESNO: You're welcome.

LL: Harvey Yesno is Chief of the Eabametoong Nation in Northern Ontario which has been under a boil water advisory for 18 years. We reached out to Indigenous Services Canada for a response to Chief Yesno's concerns. We received a written statement which reads in part, "We are working closely with the Eabametoong First Nation to bring clean and safe water to their homes. Eabametoong's First Nations' new water treatment plant, for which Indigenous Services Canada provided over 12 million dollars, started commissioning on July the 22nd of 2019 with the anticipated removal of the long term drinking water advisory in August of 2019. We remain committed to our goal of ensuring access to clean safe drinking water in all communities by removing all long term drinking water advisories by 2021. We remain on target to do so with 86 long term drinking water advisories lifted since 2015 and 56 remaining."

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LL: The CBC News is next then.

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STUDENT: So through my strikes I hope to truly connect to my community and to show them A) how climate change affects them, and B) to motivate them to take action.

Kids who cut class to educate adults about the peril of a threatened planet. I'm Laura Lynch and you are listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

Ignoring climate change is like 'putting off homework,' says teen in School Strike for Climate

Guests: Sophia Mathur, Joe Crabtree, Rebecca Hamilton, Aditi Narayanan

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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Still to come, as part of our continuing One Bullet series, we take you inside the emergency room where doctors deal with the human devastation of gun violence. But first, school kids organized to strike a blow against climate change.

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This has been another summer of extreme heat. Yesterday Paris had its hottest day in recorded history. Last March we spoke to some young activists who had decided to turn up the heat on adults to do something about climate change.

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GRETA THUNBERG: The politicians and the people in power have gotten away with not doing anything to fight the climate crisis. But we will make sure that they will not get away with it any longer. We will continue to school strike until they do something.

[Sound: crowd cheering].

LL: That is Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg at a Hamburg rally last March. The 16-year-old started weekly "Fridays for Future" protests. Her efforts were recognized when she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and kids around the globe took up her call to action by cutting class. It's called the School Strike for Climate. And students from more than 40 countries joined in. Sophia Mathur is a young student from Sudbury Ontario. She was one of the first kids in Canada to start a "Fridays for Future" climate protest. I spoke to her in March.

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LL: Good morning.

SOPHIA MATHUR: Hello.

LL: Hi. First of all what did you think when you heard that Greta, who's just four years older than you, had been nominated for a Nobel Prize?

SOPHIA MATHUR: I think it was just amazing. I think she deserves it.

LL: Why?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Because she just has such amazing words. She started this really big movement. I think she does deserves it basically.

LL: So tell me why you're taking part in the school strike for climate?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Well I want a future and I can vote for the next two elections. So I started to strike in solidarity with Greta cause she said that if adults don't give a damn for my future I won't either. And I thought that was really great.

LL: And what did your parents say to you when you told them that you actually wanted to miss school to take part in the protest?

SOPHIA MATHUR: My mom is somewhat fine with it because we as a family have always had a climate change as a conversation. So she's basically it was a good idea.

LL: What did she say to you?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Maybe.

LL: [Laughs] She thought it was a good idea but maybe. What brought her around to saying yes?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Well I went lobbying on Parliament Hill about climate change, obviously, and I guess kind of changed your mind because she realized how much I actually cared about this.

LL: When you started talking about this idea of striking what more did your friends say to you?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Some of them want to join. They were actually trying to beg their parents to join but their parents weren't really sure if they wanted their kids to miss school.

LL: Did any of them say 'I'm in. I'm doing this with you'?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Yes. Two at first and now growing bigger as a group in striking and now all my friends are striking with me.

LL: And their parents are all on board I guess.

SOPHIA MATHUR: Yes.

LL: When you think about climate change, Sophia, what is it that you actually think about?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Dying. Because I think it's just going to be such a big catastrophe if we don't do anything, because climate change is going to cause droughts, heat waves, hurricanes, tornadoes and that's going to affect people's lives. I don't understand why we're not doing anything.

LL: Do you think about this a lot?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Yes I think about it, not all the time, but with a strike I always speak like I mean it because I feel like if I don’t do anything then our lives are are gone.

LL: What do you say to the people of my generation who you feel haven't done enough for anything at all?

SOPHIA MATHUR: You need to listen to the IPCC the Paris Agreement, the Nobel Prize economist, they're experts. You say climate change is not real when people are saying that it's real, people that have studied this and know all about it.

LL: You're 11 years old. Most kids who are 11 years old should be having fun and not worrying about what's going on around them. Why do you feel this is important for you to do?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Because our lives are at risk and I'm just going to say that striking is somewhat fun. It's fun to interact with people and have them tell their stories to me, how they got affected by climate change.

LL: Is that what you're planning to do, have conversations?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Yes.

LL: What would you say to people who would maybe be a little bit skeptical and saying, well, she's just taking a day off school?

LL: Well why not? This is the only thing I can do. I can't vote. I am too young to vote. So striking from school, like many of us say, is the only thing we can really do instead of sitting at home and doing nothing.

LL: What do you think could be the best thing that could possibly happen after you all go out on strike?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Having politicians going out there, adults, caring adults, not complaining and starting you'll listen to us and just hearing us and listening to us and starting to act.

LL: How hopeful are you that what's going to happen?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Really helpful.

LL: Well I thank you for your time. I hope everything goes well for you Sophia.

SOPHIA MATHUR: Thank you.

LL: That was 11 year old Sophia Mathur. She is from Sudbury Ontario but she was with us in our Toronto studio.

LL: That was Sophia Mathur - 11 years old at the time we spoke in March. She's from Sudbury, Ontario but she was with us in our Toronto studio. Teenagers have also been a big part of those school strikes. Joe Crabtree is 15-years-old. He lives in London, England. Aditi Narayanan is 16 from Phoenix, Arizona and in Vancouver 16-year-old Rebecca Hamilton. Here's my conversation with them from March.

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LL: Rebecca Let's start with you. Why are you taking part in the strike in Vancouver?

REBECCA HAMILTON: I’m taking part in the strike because we are in a crisis right now, the climate crisis, and the world isn't acting with the urgency and with the scale that this needs. By striking from school and temporarily putting aside our normal lives we're setting an example of urgency that we demand all levels of government follow.

LL: And Joe what about you? What inspired you to take part?

JOE CRABTREE: Well it was striking because I can no longer watch our planet be destroyed by politicians. I think this is the last resort and that's why I am striking today.

LL: And Aditi, what made you think, down there in Phoenix Arizona, I want to participate in a protest over climate change?

ADITI NARAYANAN: So a lot of people think climate change is a distant that you know, melts down the glaciers, and that's not their problem. That's the thing that's happening thousands of miles away from that. But I don't know how much you all know about Arizona but it's a very, very, very hot state. I'm trying to do Celsius calculations in my head. But we went from 48 as our average over the summer to like in the 50s Celsius. So it's we've seen the summers get hotter and hotter and we've seen how drought has been an issue in our state and how water conservation is another huge issue on the ballot. In addition we're not talking advantage of the heat by using solar power and solar energy. So I'm thinking part of the story to encourage and to hold my representatives accountable to show them how they should be fighting for their community.

LL: And, Aditi, when it gets up to that high a temperature, how does that affect you in your day to day life?

ADITI NARAYANAN: Sure. It's hard to go outside definitely, and I ran cross country during that season because I'm crazy like that. It's just so hot and it can motivate a lot of people from going out, from doing things it can keep a lot of people inside. In addition it also disproportionately affects a lot of poor communities we have. For example, closer to like South Phoenix or to Tucson, to cities that are less funded and stuff like that. They definitely have less trees, less nature and wildlife to protect them from that sun. And they have more industrial things in the air and more smoke. So it definitely affects them worse it makes the air quality that they breathe much worse. So I would say it definitely directly impacts a lot of people around me.

LL: I want to play a clip for all of you now, and this is from a young woman in Baluchistan, Pakistan. Her name is Sovaizia Rahib and she too is taking part in the student climate strike.

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SOVAIZIA RAHIB: The area where I live, I witness a lot of climate change impacts, like the longer summers, and the changing in the precipitation patterns, and the water stress conditions. In fact, a month ago, I witnessed heavy rains and storms which are not usual in this area. And due to those storms, the major impact in the area was the destruction of the forage crops. Where I live, people are dependent on agriculture and farming for their livelihood, and when forage crops are destroyed, it was so hard for people to feed their animals and cattle.

LL: Rebecca you hear how Sovaizia feels climate change is affecting her life. What about you? How is it affecting yours?

REBECCA HAMILTON: Here in British Columbia we've seen a huge increase in our wildfire seasons in this time. So now we have 3-4 weeks of the summer where the sky is just obscured by wildfires' smoke from all the burning forests in British Columbia. And so this has definitely impacted my summers in that during these weeks of smoke it's hard to go outside. You can't really see the sun. You feel like you're living in a brown bubble. But I know living in Vancouver, I am privileged that climate change isn't going to like threaten my life in my life, and it's important for me to recognise that climate change disproportionately affects those who least caused it. And so while smoke in the summer is an inconvenience for me and definitely makes my summer worse, it's not threatening my life yet.

LL: The way it would for people who live, as you say, in less developed countries.

REBECCA HAMILTON: Or in other parts of Canada.

LL: Joe you tweeted a picture of yourself carrying a protest sign just the other day. The sign reads: "I can't watch our planet be destroyed by climate change any longer". What did you see happening that you feel is going unaddressed?

JOE CRABTREE: Well in London we don’t generally get much of the actual impact because we’ve got pretty feeble weather compared to Canada. But what I see on the news and what I see; the flooding, with storms with droughts. Really it affects the world and I think that affects me personally. So I've got and urge to fix that not just for people around me but for everyone in the world.

SOPHIA MATHUR: Aditi I'm wondering what kind of response you received to your decision to protest. How do your parents and your teachers feel about you staying out of school?

ADITI NARAYANAN: Sure. So I do live in a quite conservative community. So we have people who like 'climate change is real' to which is to which I respond 'yes it is'. And I've also gotten 'striking isn't going to do anything', and to that I've also been able to respond and I've shown how. At our strike I plan to registered voters. I plan to have a lobbying training and I plan to have different organizations table and have volunteer sign saying. So through my strike I hope to truly connect to my community and to show them, A) how climate change affects them, and B) to motivate them to take action. So I've been able to explain that to the vast majority of teachers, and my own parents I have been lucky enough that they've understand what I’m going for in this. So yeah I think I have had some initial doubts but then eventually they've become much support.

LL: Rebecca, Joe, have either of you received similar pushback?

JOE CRABTREE: Well not really from teachers. They've been quite supportive. I think they all see the problem which is out there, but people from school have said 'oh why are you going on strike one person won't really change that much'. But I think if everyone thought that nothing would ever happen, so that's what I've been telling people and I think you know one person can have an impact. If you look at what Greta's done and the change worldwide just because of her. I think it's quite an inspiration.

LL: Rebecca, I am wondering about you out in Vancouver. I mean I would assume that in Vancouver there are a lot of people who would be supporting you.

REBECCA HAMILTON: Yes. It's been pretty support for us which is great. My teachers are definitely not oppositional and my parents are supportive which I'm really lucky about, and the community is also pretty supportive. But I think also our focus for us is that we have a federal election coming up in the fall. And so we're really trying to build momentum towards making the climate crisis and addressing it a priority in the election. And so to people who say that we're not really making an impact, they think it's all about building momentum. I think we are making an impact in that we're making our voices heard.

LL: And you say you're not able to vote in the upcoming election but you want to have an influence over how people do that, is that what you're saying?

REBECCA HAMILTON: Absolutely, yes. I'm not able to vote and we want to remind the adults that well as young folks can't vote it's our futures that are on the line.

LL: This is for any one of you. You guys are teenagers. Do you ever feel that you should be having fun and then not worrying about the future of the planet?

REBECCA HAMILTON: I mean I've been able to balance - barely - but able to balance school and extracurriculars and activism and having a fun social life, but also I definitely agree that the work we're doing is more important at the moment. I hope that I'll be able to have fun in the future - guaranteed that it's not burning. I think that the work that we're doing at the moment is something that we should keep on prioritising and that's something that's very important to me.

LL: And Joe I'm wondering because even if you weren't worried about climate change you've got that whole Brexit thing going on at UK too. I mean do you think you should have a chance to just enjoy your teenage years?

JOE CRABTREE: Well I think definitely that's definitely true. But if we don't do this now our children won't be able to enjoy their teenage years and their children won't. So I think it is a real issue. And if climate change goes much media here in the UK as Brexit did I think there'd be a lot more action, because if everyone knew that in 12 years the planet won't be like it is today, then I think people would start to act. And I don’t think that's how it is at the moment.

LL: If your generation ruled the world, Joe, which they will one day soon, tell me what you would do differently.

JOE CRABTREE: Well I think first step is definitely to declare a climate emergency because it really is an emergency, and then long term would be to decarbonize the economy, a Green New Deal.

LL: You're referring to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Green New Deal, the new representative in the United States.

JOE CRABTREE: Yes.

LL: And what kinds of things are in that that you would like to do?

JOE CRABTREE: Well it basically gives everyone a job who wants one and ensures that it's in the renewable sector, so that is no more carbon in the atmosphere and everyone's got a good way of life.

LL: And what do you do now yourself?

JOE CRABTREE: Well I recycle things obviously but on the personal level I just try to increase awareness for climate change among my friends, among my peers and I think the strike is basically the final resort because I've been in the Green Party before and I used to hand out leaflets. Nobody was really listening. And this is the last thing, the most recent thing I've done to do climate change and I think it's actually working this time, which is quite a surprise because people actually listening.

LL: Rebecca, Aditi, what if you came to elected office what would you do?

REBECCA HAMILTON: I would declare a climate emergency and make this a priority. Every government decision needs to be made to the lens of Climate crisis. And climate policy is complicated but the decision to prioritise it is not. And so I would make sure that I prioritise it. And also I think it's important to recognize, as Joe you're talking about the Green New Deal, one thing that is really exciting almost about climate action is that this is an opportunity to solve all of these other problems that we've been struggling with. The climate crisis is a manifestation of all these problems that are interwoven into every aspect of the foundation of our society. And so as we need to change that we can improve other things, too. This is our opportunity to have complete gender equality and to end white supremacism and to make sure that everybody has a fair job. And so I would make sure that I recognize that also in my actions for climate justice.

LL: Aditi, what about you? What if you became a member of Congress or a senator or the president?

ADITI NARAYANAN: Sure. As someone who just really loves policy and like that, I've worked at my local legislature before and I see all the bills that come in through the Arizona legislature, and I'm realizing that there are some really key issues that shouldn't be split on party lines but are. For example, we have a lot of big electric companies in the state that dis-incentivize the use of solar power. So my first action would be regulating these solar companies. Then I will look into a tax on carbon emission because that's another huge problem especially here in the southwest in the States. I just have a lot of like really niche policy interests that I would start implementing such as recycling programs, protecting public and indigenous lands, and you know drinking water would be another huge issue - clean drinking water - that I would start prioritizing in my constituency.

LL: The reason you guys are striking is because adults I guess aren't listening or you feel they're not listening to you. Joe what will it take to get adults to listen?

JOE CRABTREE: Well soon we'll be able to vote. I think that will be a big change for them because they'll realize that they'll have to listen to us if they want to be elected again. And I’m currently 15 now, so I've got three years so I can vote. And as you know in the UK elections are up at any time especially at the moment. So yes I think soon they'll realize that we will have a say and we will have the ability to express our opinions especially in climate change.

LL: This is for all of you. What does it say to you about the adults in charge that young people are having to resort to this kind of protest to try to force change?

REBECCA HAMILTON: Honestly it reminds me of when I just put off homework and then I feel like at some point it will get done. But I know that I need to just do it because otherwise it won't happen. And that's how I see climate action. Every generation just keeps putting it off. But we're in a crisis right now we can't keep putting it off. It needs to get done and we need to take dramatic action to ensure the continuation of civilization on this planet.

LL: Rebecca I'm wondering though, does this ever take a toll on you, thinking about this all the time?

REBECCA HAMILTON: It does. I think it's really hard to-- as young people we were being told this narrative of crisis and we know what the science is telling us. But looking around us we don’t really see any real action being taken and so living in this dissonant space between what we know to be true and what is happening in the world around us, it’s really difficult. And to constantly be having in the back of my mind that concept of impending doom is emotionally tolling. And I think that’s something that needs to be more explored and our society is the emotional impact of climate crisis. And we need to move through that in order to take the bold action that we need to be taking.

LL: This last question I want all three of you to answer and I'll start with you Joe. What do you hope everyone young and old takes away from your strike?

JOE CRABTREE: Well I hope they see the real problem which is climate change and actually do something about it rather than just acknowledging it. So I hope that young people go along to the strike. Older people can vote, vote for representatives who do care about climate change and will enforce new ideas like the Green New Deal. Yes that's my message.

LL: Aditi what about you?

ADITI NARAYANAN: Well I hope again that I energize the community that I show them how this issue is destined, how it's directly affecting them in their everyday lives. And you know I also hope to register a lot of voters to get a lot of people interested in our cause, to get people to volunteer, to get people interested in further action, to show people how to vote and to hold those voted elected officials accountable into enacting bills that help them in their daily lives.

LL: Rebecca last word to you. What are you hoping people will take away from the strike?

REBECCA HAMILTON: I'm hoping people will take away just how urgent this is. We're asking all levels of government what their plan is. No levels of government have a plan that is fully in line with science from the IPCC and we put pressure on that. Our biggest message is that this is an emergency and we need to act like it.

LL: I thank all three of you for taking the time and being so thoughtful about this.

ADITI NARAYANAN: Thank you.

REBECCA HAMILTON: Thank you for having me.

JOE CRABTREE: Thank you.

LL: That was 15-year-old Joe Crabtree in London England, Aditi Narayanan in Phoenix Arizona and Rebecca Hamilton in Vancouver. Aditi and Rebecca are both 16. All three took part in the school strike for climate change. Now we want to leave you with a message sent to us from one more young climate striker. Here he is.

SOUNDCLIP

ARYADAR GUPTA: Hi I am Aryadar Gupta. I am 13 years old and I live in Gurgaon, India. I reside in a country that lives with the shame of having 14 of the 15 most polluted cities in the world. How cannot host the students’ strike in Gurgaon, labelled the city with the worst air quality in the world. I'm 13 years old and only nine of them have been in India and yet seen things get really bad really quickly over the past five years. My parents and school forced me to wear masks and regularly call off sport activities and period time due to air pollution. My parents don't allow me to play outside on most days for my safety. I am asthmatic. Two years ago I had a near-death experience of an asthma attack that knocked the air out of me, literally. I don't wish to live in a mask for the rest of my life. I don't wish have a family of children in a place where I have to worry, constantly worry, about the health and the wellness of my loved ones. So now there is no option but to strike. I am old enough to have my preferences be hard. The writing is on the wall and the time to act is now.

LL: From Gergen India. That was 13-year-old climate striker Aryadar Gupta and that was a rebroadcast from March.

Gun violence takes a heavy toll on families of victims, says trauma surgeon

Guests: Dr. Bernard Lawless, Dr. Paola Fata

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. Today we're continuing to rebroadcast our special series One Bullet: A CBC Investigation into the impact of gun violence in our country. One bullet, one person at a time - this time by speaking with two trauma surgeons from two of the busiest emergency rooms in the country. And that discussion began with Anna Maria Tremonti and the doctors.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: What's the consequence to that patient? Did it go and injure his spinal cord? You know, will people would be able to walk? How is this bullet eroding the fabric of the community? What are we doing to respond?

VOICE 2: Really the power of one bullet it in extrapolating even beyond you know the injuries that can cause sometimes fatal, but how life changing it can be for so many people that are impacted by it, and not just the victim, the victims' families. Even the perpetrator whoever was holding the gun. I think for them it has to be a powerful life changing element as well.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I was speaking with two Canadian trauma surgeons, Dr. Bernard Lawless from St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto and Dr. Paola Fata from the Montreal General Hospital, who are describing the impact of a single bullet and the ripple effects that extends well beyond their respective emergency and operating rooms. I want to talk more about that in a few minutes, but first, could each of you give me a snapshot of what you seeing in your hospitals. Paola Fata, I'll start with you.

DR. PAOLA FATA: We probably get, regularly, I'd say one to two gunshot wounds per week that come to the emergency room. And of course there are seasonal variations. You know and it's a varied kind of prevalence in terms of whether the violence is self-directed, whether it is gang related or whether it is in even conjugal.

AMT: And of the gunshot victims coming through the doors, is there a profile? Who are they?

DR. PAOLA FATA: A lot of it is you know suicide intent. There are also gang related events. But there are probably far fewer than had them either conjugally or what one does to oneself. And I think that that's something that's often overlooked.

AMT: Bernard Lawless, what are you seeing at St. Mikes in Toronto?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: I think, in a similar scope that Dr. Fata has described in terms of the types of scenarios that result in these devastating types of injuries. So whether it's crime or violence related, whether it's domestic partner violence, whether it's self-inflicted harm or injury you know we'd probably see the same types of mix, I think. When you hear it on the news or when you hear it the next day it's easier I think sometimes for it in general to think that these are often crime or violence violent crime related and they're not always but often times there are. And I think sometimes it's difficult to get a full story. When you're treating patients in the emergency department your focus is on identifying the injuries, resuscitating from their injuries. And that's why you know it takes a whole group of people wrapped around caring for that patient to try to delve into some other issues to try to see what you can do to support the patient. You don't always get to see the elements of their life that may have contributed to that circumstance happening to them at that particular time.

AMT: Is there one case that's really stuck with you as being particularly illustrative of the damage that one bullet can do?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: There are times but I think you're so focused in that moment, as a physician as a surgeon the task at hand, that it's not necessarily it's sometimes usually after the fact when you may have finished a case endurable to reflect back and things like 'holy cow, that was awful', or 'that was as bad as I thought it was going to be'. And then you start to reflect I think on the impact that you see, the broader impact. And then sometimes you start to think like 'wow that was like devastating' or something you'll see something that wasn't particularly devastating, but you'll recognize that the path of the bullet may have become millimeters, the very vital structures that if it had just been for a few millimeters that injury could have caused death. And I marvel sometimes that sometimes you think like, gosh, like but for the grace of whatever the path of that bullet didn't cause even more injury than it could have. And you think like, wow, how could that possibly have traversed all of those structures and missed causing a fatal injury.

AMT: So Dr. Fata we talk about the physical damage, but of course you see the emotional damage that it has on families and friends of victims. Talk to me a little bit about that side of it.

DR. PAOLA FATA: Part of the nature of trauma and what we do is that it's always unexpected. So the family is not expecting it either. And they think once you've addressed sort of the physical injuries then you and the patient is stabilized, it's how do you how do you talk to the family, what are the consequences on that first person. Was there a spinal cord injury? And now their life is completely different from what they knew just the day before. And then most of the time these people are very young and they have a sort of a lot to contribute yet their life now is completely altered.

AMT: Bernard Lawless what do you think when you go through that as well, dealing with the aftermath?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: When you have to sit down with the panel and explain to them what the consequence of that was in terms of the types of injuries that somebody might have, laying out what this really rocky trajectory, your course in the hospital or maybe with multiple surgeries and rehab and recovery and things like that. One of the things I think that afternoon will rest with me the most, even sometimes beyond the impact that it might have on the actual victim, is the reaction of patients families or their loved ones, and their inability sometimes to be able to comprehend what could have happened that this person could have been in this circumstance that this happened to them. It's really hard to convey any sort of assurance or pick the right words to a patient's family when they really are having understandably difficult time even been absorbing like why this happened, or how it could have happened, or what happened. And you get all kinds of different reactions from people. I remember updating a family once and it was probably a distant relative from the third row back of updating this large family, and someone put up their hand and said, "Well can you tell me like how far away was the shooter?" And I thought about it and I wanted to answer the question but I would not have had enough information to even be able to pretend to give a real answer. We probably have countless stories of those encounters I think. And when you really start to peel that away and see the impact on not just the victim but on people, and I think as we've alluded to you don't always operate on people to find and take out the bullets. And even that concept I think is difficult sometimes for patients’ families or their parents or their loved ones. They like, "Aren't you going to take the bullet?" And sometimes it's difficult to relay that you can cause more injury trying to find the bullet. But that notion I think that somebody may still have bullet retained in their body, I think for loved ones and family it's tough. It's hard for them because it's a reminder.

AMT: That's so interesting. Paula Fatah, do you have that experience as well. I know intellectually that sometimes you guys can't take it out, but the idea that just talking about that, that these vulnerable soft bodies of ours could actually keep something like that for a long time. It's hard for people to understand, I guess.

DR. PAOLA FATA: Yes certainly, I think you definitely don't go chasing after bullets that are going to cause like more injury. Then I think for families, I don't know, my experience has been a little bit different. I think when you explain that, they do get a sense. They get wrapped around it. I think part of it is also you know cultural and they believe that you've got to get the word out and that something bad could happen. You know they could get infected and cause even more harm. But I think it may just be all sorts of a metaphor. You know, there's so much disbelief and so much-- I think probably from the reaction of the fact that this is such an unexpected event, that people, when you are dealing with families, or I am dealing with families, I think there's a lot of denial and anger. We heard from Dr. Lawless, too. But not directed necessarily at you, probably the situation. And people feel that things are all out of their control and I think that sense, what's going on early on, is probably driving a lot of the reaction.

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: I was just going to add and unlike most people don't get to rehearse their reaction to a catastrophic event. And so I think that's where you got to see that range of how to cope, where to direct their anger, their disbelief that the tragedy is huge.

AMT: I want to play something for you.

SOUNDCLIP

EYEWITNESS 1: I was walking down the escalator and someone got hit beside me, and ran down full of blood. I just went into a classroom.

INTERVIEWER: And you were [unintelligible] enough inside the classroom?

EYEWITNESS 1: Yes we put tables and stuff in front of the door and the police came to get us about 20 minutes later.

INTERVIEWER: So you just left the building.

EYEWITNESS 1: I got out like five minutes ago.

INTERVIEWER: And what was running through your mind all the time.

EYEWITNESS 1: I wanted to get out.

EYEWITNESS 2: I just started to hear like bang bang bang, like super close. Instantly I thought fire fireworks or something like that. And I saw someone with a gun holding a gun up, seemed black, I'm pretty sure. And then I asked someone just dropped to the floor. As soon as they saw that I literally just ran.

EYEWITNESS 3: We were sitting outside. We heard them shooting. I thought it was fireworks and we heard them shooting, and we ran inside and then they came in the restaurant. He shot the girl right in front of me.

AMT: You can hear the urgency in those voices. That's really emotional. Voices of eyewitnesses in two mass shootings in Canada. The first, Dawson College in Montreal 2006. The second a set of eyewitnesses there on the Danforth in Toronto last summer. Bernard Lawless, you were called in the night of the Danforth shooting. Tell us about that night and how it began for you.

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: So you go in to any sort of period of time when you’re on call, always expecting that you could get called in. It only takes me about six or seven minutes to go to the hospital. And by the time I had arrived I think a number of the victims had already arrived. You may we prepare for these types of things, when you may receive multiple casualties at the same time and having the teams in the emergency department who are properly able to also help assess which victims are which patients need more urgent intervention, or which ones seem stable. And recognising I think that one thing that I was unsure of was how many more were possibly coming in. So that was the unknown piece of the entity. But clearly when I had arrived even at the emergency department there is lot of ambulances, lots of police cars. That I think to me was the signal of the magnitude of the event.

AMT: So you kick in right away. You just start, like the tumbler start turning in your head about what needs to be done.

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: It's immediate and you even start thinking about that before you go to the hospital. You anticipate the worst case scenario and how to be prepared for that.

AMT: Fatah, you were not on duty the day of the Dawson College shooting, but you were at the hospital. What happened?

DR. PAOLA FATA: I was actually on vacation and I was doing charts which is probably the most boring part of my work. Then I heard the code orange. I walked down to the emergency room and saw some of my colleagues already there. And I think that's one of the things you started doing when you don't know anything. You just start sort of slowing down your thinking, what do we know about the events, who is coming in. We were all sort of waiting and we were all waiting for the patients. And we didn't know how many were coming, and we didn't know how many shooters there were. We just sort of had intermittent reports and I think that was the hardest part. With events like that, I think what's key is really to keep communications going, communications from the pre-hospital into the hospital, so that we can kind of just and respond to anticipate. And I think that that was what was happening at the time. And I think that's probably why we saw a reasonably good outcome in this case.

AMT: How does the emotional impact of those kinds of mass shootings differ from other shootings where you might be treating somebody?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: Again, you don't always appreciate what's been happening or the why or the how it happened or the circumstances that happened. And when you think back to some of those events I think that seem more random, that seem to have involved a significant number of victims who really are innocent bystanders and out maybe for an evening with their family, or out you know doing what they would do during a regular day, and you think of the magnitude of the number of people who are injured and impacted by that. It has a certain sense of just lack of being able to comprehend the whole piece behind it. And so the impact I think gets especially when you know the magnitude of it, the senselessness of it, the impact on the victims all leads you to really reflect and I think you have to spend some time personally sorting through that. And also then with your colleagues and with other people who may have been involved in things like that, in terms of debriefing. You know those events which are a large scale often of course generate large media coverage and that contributes I think to the emotion that people feel around those things. But you also have a Tuesday night where two people could be shot and come in, and the same feeling of like senselessness, and how could this happen, and whether they were involved in crime activity or whether they were innocent bystanders. The same element occurs and I think it's important not to lose sight of--.

AMT: What's important for us to remember that because you are dealing - as you say - with all sorts of variations of the shootings. Paola Fatah, mass shootings in Canada generate a huge amount of media coverage. You see a danger in that?

DR. PAOLA FATA: Well I think the coverage is important. I think that we need to kind of address it as a problem. I think we need to see it for what it is, it's called a public health crisis. I think that that's very important.

AMT: Do you do you think that gun violence in Canada is a public health crisis?

DR. PAOLA FATA: I think when you're looking at the scale of what is happening, I think it is a public health crisis.

AMT: Bernard Lawless?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: Yes I think we definitely have to look at it as a public health crisis. And I think there's been a lot of discussion in the media recently around whether it's a public health issue or not, and do physicians have a role in playing and highlighting that it's a public health issue, and is it even anything that physicians should be weighing in on. And I think as a trauma surgeon when you think about what we do on a day to day basis, if you equate it to other types of injury and the role that we play in trying to promote injury prevention or understanding the quote "epidemiology or the science behind injury" and those things that we work towards to decrease injury. So whether it's wearing helmets when you're bicycling, or wearing seat belts when you're driving your car, or making sure that you don't drink and drive. Those are all things that you know campaigns that have had highlight by various groups around how we can create a decrease in injury rates. As a trauma surgeon you think that there is really no accidents and really most injury is preventable.

AMT: Paola Fatah, in the US we see surgeons speaking on a response to the National Rifle Association suggestions that doctors should quote "stay in your lane" and keep quiet on the subject of gun control. There would be people in Canada who would agree with that, that doctors don't have a place in the politics surrounding this kind of thing. What would you say to them?

DR. PAOLA FATA: Well I would say treating patients, treating victims of gun violence is what I do and what I have always done so I consider it also my lane. A lot of us agree. We see those consequences immediately like in terms of life threatening injuries and also the consequences and sort of how it erodes patience, how it alters their lives sort of forever no matter what the injury is. Even if the injury never put them at risk for their life, it still alters them sort of on an emotional basis. And then you look at the communities and the families and how those people are irrevocably altered. I think if you forget the consequences, I think then we have to do more than what we're doing now. And I think it's a responsible thing especially to come up with a statement and ask for a deeper awareness, changes in our policy and approach to sort of even what we do with evidence behind us.

AMT: Paolo you have made the point that we see recalls of a very items that are damaging.

DR. PAOLA FATA: Well I said that as a joke. I said that we don't think twice about recalling romaine lettuce and it's killed far fewer people. Yet, we won't touch the gun law. I think it's probably there is also politics involved and there's probably strong sentiment about our freedoms. But yes, we do a lot more for romaine that we do for guns in Canada.

AMT: Lawless, what do you think?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: You know it's challenging and I think when you think about it from a political perspective, you cannot capture the nuance of anything that potentially can be done at looking at any sort of prevention strategies from a single sound bite. We need to ban guns, or not ban guns, or these types of guns, or restrict these guns but allow these types of other guns or rifles or things like that. And so I think it begs a more thoughtful discussion between many people who could be involved in the fact that contribute to gun violence. Canada has reasonably good regulations around buying a gun and license to buy a gun and renewing those licenses and things like that. You know it's too easy from an emotional standpoint to say 'okay well let's call for a ban on handguns'. Because then you have to think about well that may be okay but then what do we do from a policing perspective. How is that going to impact on people who obtain guns illegally? What does that do from a social or criminal justice system in terms of those pieces that also have to be considered I think when we when we talk about these things?

AMT: How does that affect each of you at the end of the day when you go home and you think about lives that have been altered forever by a bullet?

DR. PAOLA FATA: When I look at the actual patients and their injuries it doesn't really affect me as much. The things that mark me in my day, after events like that or after a call, it's really been about the discussions I've had with the family. Recognising that that person has individual value and what that person meant around that family, I think that to me is the hardest part of what I do.

AMT: Bernard Lawless, what about you?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: You know it's easy in a sense to describe how we can be methodical about approaching injuries from gun violence. And it seems very sterile and separated from all the other pieces that could be impacted. But I think at the end of the day we're human and you can't divorce yourself from seeing the impact that it has on patients and families. You have to be careful I think about how much of that weighs on you from a day to day basis, or else it can be a bit crippling and then you can't function the way that you need to in the moment that you should. And so you have to have a mechanism of how you kind of deal with that. But I think the important thing is to recognise that if there are things we could be doing to decrease the burden of these types of injuries then we need to look for those opportunities, and explore those and have the right discussion with policymakers or a dominant decision makers or other people who are in the sphere of researching why there is gun violence in society and the other factors that contribute to it. And that I think an element of at least provide you with out that thought about were roaming sense of despair of looking at the negativity that you can see when you see that somebody has been shot, and the injuries that they have and the very significant impact it has on them and their families or other communities, and look for those opportunities of where can we make a change or where can we take relevance from the experience that we have in seeing these things and witnessing these things to craft something that hopefully makes a difference.

AMT: How big is that piece of metal?

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: About the size of from the last joint on your pinky to the tip of your fingernail often.

AMT: So it’s not a very big piece of metal but it has this incredibly lasting effect.

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: Well it comes with a huge amount of energy behind it. And I think we need to maybe search out ways of having an equal amount of energy from a societal perspective of looking at other things that we might be able to do different, or address those elements I think contribute to gun violence in our society.

AMT: Okay we'll leave it there. Thank you.

DR. BERNARD LAWLESS: Thank you.

DR. PAOLA FATA: Thank you.

LL: That was Anna Maria Tremonti conversation with Canadian trauma surgeons Dr. Bernard lawless from St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto. And Dr. Paula Fata from the Montreal General Hospital. It first aired back in January as part of our series One Bullet: A CBC investigation into the impact of gun violence in our country - one bullet, one person at a time. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to this Summer Edition of The Current.

July 26, 2019 episode transcript

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