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The Current Transcript for July 16, 2019

Host: David Common

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: If you're not happy in the US, if you're complaining all the time, you can leave. You can leave right now. Come back if you want. Don't come back. It's OK too, but if you're not happy, you can leave.

DAVID COMMON: Is this racist? Yes. Telling four members of Congress, three of them American-born to go back where they came from. Of course it's coming from the president of the United States. And today we're looking at how Donald Trump is setting the stage for how he'll fight the next election: us and them. And it's worked for Trump in the past. So what does it mean now? That's first up. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: What do I think of when you think of rats? I think of ugh. I think ick.

DC: Yeah, we're talking rats. An invasion of rats. Dee Paul discovered a network of rat tunnels under her Toronto home. She's not alone. We're not here to freak you out. After all, they are fascinating creatures. And for Dee, even when she couldn't see them, her other senses let her know what was lurking beneath. And then.

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VOICE: I knew I was going to go under scrutiny by going public. And yes, I was a leader in it before and as soon as I saw what was actually going on, I exposed it. What else, what else should I do?

DC: Continuing to tell the story of Escaping NXIVM. Sarah Edmondson's story inside the alleged sex cult as a high level member, coming to terms with what happened and her role in it. I'm David Common and this is the summer edition of The Current.

'Call a spade a spade': Trump tweets about congresswomen were racist: liberal activist

Guests: Sally Kohn, Adi Sathi

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Weak minds and leaders challenge loyalty in order to avoid challenging and debating the policy. He can't look a child in the face and justify why this country is throwing them in cages. So instead, he tells us that I should go back to the great burrow of the Bronx and make it better and that's what I'm here to do.

DC: U.S. Congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez hitting back at a recent Twitter rant by U.S. President Donald Trump. The tirade targeted four Democratic congresswomen, all of them progressive women of colour. President Trump's words instructing the women to "go back to their own countries" drew heat from Democrats and some Republicans. Outside the U.S., others responded, including Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: That is not how we do things in Canada. A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian and the diversity of our country is actually one of our greatest strengths and a source of tremendous resilience and pride for Canadians. We will continue to defend that.

DC: Elsewhere some just sort of laughed off President Trump's tweets. This is Fox and Friends Weekend co-host Jedediah Bila discussing the four Democratic congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib with other Fox News correspondents Griff Jenkins and Todd Piro.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: They are standing firm and I think that Nancy Pelosi is going to have a hard time contending with a lot of these women who are very very strong, they're very very principled and they are not backing down.

VOICE 2: Without a doubt. You know and we're not dealing with some notice President Trump noticing tweeting this morning, this: "So interesting to see progressive Democratic congresswoman who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe. The worst was corrupt and inept anywhere in the world, if they even have a functioning government at all, now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful nation on earth how our government is to be run. Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly. You can't leave fast enough. I'm sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements." This tweet that you're just seeing now is clearly going to get I think a lot of discretion.

VOICE 3: Comedian in chief.

VOICE 4: Someone's feeling very comedic today.

DC: The president is back at it today, tweeting the Democrat Congresswoman have been spewing some of the most vile hateful and disgusting things ever said by a politician. He calls them anti-Israel, anti-USA and pro-terrorist. In a moment we're going to talk to a liberal political commentator and activist for insight into how the Democrats and party leadership are responding to what's known as "the squad," the four Congresswoman, what they have been come to known. But first for a take on how Trump's tweets landed for Republicans, I'm joined by Adi Sathi. He is the chief of staff for the Young Republicans national federation and a former national director of Asian Pacific American engagement at the Republican National Committee. He's in our Washington studio. Hello Adi.

ADI SATHI: Hi David. Thank you for having me today.

DC: Not at all. Thank you for coming in. You're a Republican. You're also brown. You're Indian-American. Has anybody ever told you to go back where you came from?

ADI SATHI: Well I want to clarify and say that I'm American first, but I think that when you want to qualify me as an Indian-American, I'm proud of that heritage. That's where my parents were born. They came to this country as immigrants. They fought very hard to be here and be successful in this country and I think when they talk about America, these congresswomen, when they talk about America, they don't seem like they love our country. And that I think is the main issue that we see these four congresswomen, you can call them the squad. I can call them the socialist squad, I think a lot of people view them that way and a lot of the things that they say are not pro-America. And that's unfortunate.

DC: But when you look at, you are looking at what they're saying, you're not talking about what the president's saying. When he says, "go back where you came from," the inference is go back to some other country and he refers to other countries. Has that ever happened to you?

ADI SATHI: In my experience, it has not.

DC: You've never been told, go back where you came from?

ADI SATHI: I have not been told that, no.

DC: Do you understand how some may see that as racist? A great many people would see that as racist.

ADI SATHI: I think that when you look at some of the comments that these congresswomen have been making in the past, we're talking about Venezuela with Nicolas Maduro. I mean they're supporting an individual and their interests in this other country that's failing and the way that he's been treating his people and his country is a travesty. So when we're talking about these women in congress who are not necessarily supporting the greatest interests of our country, I think they deserve some criticism.

DC: So why pick on them? I mean these are four Congresswomen who are relatively new, elected in the last midterm elections, have relatively little power within Congress itself. They're nowhere close to the leadership. What's the strategy? What's the game out of looking at them for the president?

ADI SATHI: So in the new era I think one thing that we can notice is that social media has really changed the dynamic of politics in America and in the world quite frankly. Whether that's the president or whether that's these younger congresswoman, these freshman congresswomen who have used that as a platform to elevate their voice and you see them going after their own leadership. I mean Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, is the leader of the Democratic Party, as we see it today and they openly are willing to go after the leader of their own party, criticize her and you know she's addressing them as well she's recognizing what they're saying.

DC: But there's always been divisions within party. There's divisions within the Republican Party. There's divisions within the Democratic Party and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez actually supported Nancy Pelosi in her current bid to be speaker.

ADI SATHI: Even though she said she wouldn't do that when she ran by the way, but yes.

DC: She said she wouldn't, but then she did. Yeah.

ADI SATHI: So I mean I think you see divisions. I agree with what you're saying, but they've been able to elevate their voice using social media and so people outside of you know a lot of the typical day to day political mainstream are maybe following these folks on social media and so you have to address what they're saying.

DC: Is some part of the game here that you make these four women who you and the president have called socialist or socialist leaning, if you make them the face of the Democratic Party, that you take those swing voters who are scared of the word socialism and convert them back to the president's side. Is that the strategy?

ADI SATHI: I don't know if it's a strategy as much as literally addressing what they're saying. What they're talking about is endorsing socialism and by virtue of having all these Democrats in their own party now supporting these four members of the socialist squad, supporting them and saying, hey look, you know we need to make sure we get behind what it is that they're saying. It's only pushing their party further and further to the left and you're seeing that in the presidential debates that are coming up and have already happened as well, where you're seeing you know people who have you know been involved with the Democratic Party for many years getting behind some of these policies that are quite frankly scary for the future of our country and seeing you know what they've done to other countries.

DC: How will what the president has said over the weekend, doubling down yesterday and tweeting again this morning, how will that help him get re-elected?

ADI SATHI: I mean in the current state of his campaign, he's going to get re-elected. That's what everybody believes. He's on a pathway to victory.

DC: I think everybody probably wouldn't believe that. I mean the polling suggests that the three leading candidates for the Democratic nomination would beat him hands down.

ADI SATHI: The polling suggested that he wouldn't win last time either and look who our president is, right? So I don't think that that's necessarily the greatest indicating factor anymore. Donald Trump is a very unique president and I think that he has the pathway to victory if you look at the map in the way that it's drawn, especially from a party operative perspective, which I've been able to see. He has a pathway to victory and so I don't think these small social media tiffs and you know press conferences from freshman congresswoman are going to change any sort of dynamic. If anything, you know he's full steam ahead.

DC: Do you think though that what he has been doing over the past few days plays into that that playbook, that broader plan?

ADI SATHI: If we can go back to one of the quotes that you know he put out in his tweets and I'd like to read that: "The Dems were trying to distance themselves from the four progressives, but now they are forced to embrace them. That means they're endorsing socialism, hate of Israel and the US. Not good for Democrats." And I agree with him on that sentiment. I don't think it necessarily plays into his strategy, but they are continuing to essentially showcase the fact that our president is the right person for the job.

DC: Can I just ask you about how Republicans have responded to this? Republicans have been very wary of criticizing Republicans in power in particular, in powerful positions have been reluctant to criticize this president because of how popular he is with the base. But if I were to read something to you from the Charlotte Observer, which was published about Republicans who say little or say nothing, they say instead of standing up for who we should be, they're bowing to the worst of who we are. When you think about what you're saying and what others have not said, how do you think that fits in?

ADI SATHI: When you look at a lot of the different statements that are made by Republicans, you see people that are in the party that have maybe criticized the president at times, but I think that a lot of the work that he's doing is good for our country and that's what I can get behind and a lot of other Republicans are getting behind. And in this particular instance, if you look at the Republican National Committee, there was our great spokeswoman Liz Harrington who was able to come out yesterday evening afternoon and talked a little bit about some of the things that were said by this congresswoman addressing what the president was alluding to I think. And that's something that you can definitely check out on her social media.

DC: We certainly can. Adi, thank you very much for speaking with us today.

ADI SATHI: Thank you for having me.

DC: That is Adi Sathi, who is the chief of staff for the Young Republican National Federation. He's held senior positions with the Republican National Congress. He was in our Washington studio. Presidents Trump's tweets may be dominating the headlines, but the rise of Ms. Ocasio-Cortez and the other congresswoman, along with their progressive agenda, has caused some consternation, even among the Democratic leadership. In an interview with The New York Times earlier this month, Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi called the squad sizable social media presence, as their public whatever. And on the squad's opposition to a Democratic backed bill that allocates more funding to the U.S. border security, Ms. Pelosi said they didn't have any following. They're for people and that's how many votes they got. For some insight into how the Democratic Party is managing rising tensions between moderate and progressive wings of their own party, I'm joined by Sally Kohn. She is a liberal activist, commentator and author of The Opposite of Hate: A Field Guide to Repairing Our Humanity. We've reached her in Brooklyn, New York. Hi Sally.

SALLY KOHN: Hi there. How are you?

DC: I'm well. You've heard Adi Sathi.

SALLY KOHN: Oh I did.

DC: About how this is replacing with the Republican base. What do you think?

SALLY KOHN: Well look, I mean for a time I understand if people were going to try to see Trump's statements and tweets and you know interpret them in their most generous light and maybe shade the criticism as you know we're going to call it race baiting or racially insensitive, but at a certain point you got to call a spade a spade. And what he said was racist. Whether you want to criticize these four members of congress or not, whether you support the president or not, you know it's a very telling moment in our hyper partisanship that you can have the president of the United States of America say something that is so blatantly explicitly, historically, clearly racist and a flagrant violation of the best values that our country hopefully stands for and that hopefully our president, our leader would represent, but because he is a Republican, the party lines up behind him and people strain and stretch to justify what he said. You know the true test of patriotism, ironically this goes to what patriotism is. Patriotism isn't blindly following your nation or your nation's leader, it's standing up for your country's values and that should be true for Republicans as well in this moment.

DC: I just want to talk about the strategy here because as we look forward, this is likely going to continue happening because it's happened in the past and it's worked for this president. It helped get him elected. So is the game out as some have suggested, that you make these four women, people of colour, who are progressive, who some see as socialist,f that you paint them with that brush and you help swing those voters in the middle who aren't with any particular candidate right now. You swing them towards the Republicans. Is that the game out here and if so should the Dems be worried?

SALLY KOHN: Look here's the interesting thing about this socialist word. Folks have to remember that Republicans tarnished Barack Obama both in his primary in his first election campaign and re-election as a socialist. Now Barack Obama is a lot of things, but he ain't a socialist. And I you know those of us more on the left of the perspective really wish he had been more in that direction. So there's this reality which is clearer that you're also watching Republicans and Trump tarnish very moderate even centrist conventional Democrats as socialist. So let's be clear, they're going to try this no matter what. The other important thing to note here, we do not talk about this enough is that the so-called radical leftist policies that folks like the squad are supporting are embraced by strong majorities of Americans. Medicare for all. Pick one example. Over 70 percent of Americans support it. Now when you have a policy that over 70 percent of Americans support, I don't know how we call that left wing. I don't how we call that fringe. I don't know how we call that radical. That is a mainstream idea and the problem is that the party had been captured and pulled toward the corporate centre and now it's readjusting toward the people.

DC: OK. So let's talk about that because is that what's happening? Nancy Pelosi was once considered a left radical too and now she seems by comparison somewhere, if not in the middle, then on the right wing of the party, relative to these progressives. What does it say about what is happening in Democratic politics that the party establishment is what the squad itself is rebelling against?

SALLY KOHN: Oh again I think that's an honesty that's a little bit of sort of the media playing into and honestly preferring palace intrigue over policy. So the fact is that the squad and Nancy Pelosi and all Democrats are extraordinarily united against create against the disastrous horrific inhumane offensive policies of this president and united for creating a better country for all Americans. I mean bear in mind again just picking up that example you have a Democratic Party that is debating having a healthy debate about how do we provide affordable quality health insurance for all Americans. That's what all Democrats are united in wanting and they are against a Republican Party that is fairly uniform in wanting to deny cuts and worsen health insurance access for Americans so the unity is is actually tremendous and again similarly and this is also an important point here, the reason Trump did this, there are a lot of dumb reasons maybe he did this, but it certainly distracts from the fact that he's throwing kids in cages. The fact that his close friend Jeffrey Epstein is being indicted on sexual assault.

DC: But he may also be doing this because it's worked in the past. It's helped get him.

SALLY KOHN: Yes because we fall for it.

DC: So are people going to fall for it again?

SALLY KOHN: Spin fighting conversation more than actually the substance of policy.

DC: Should Democrats be worried that this approach will work again?

SALLY KOHN: Well of course and I think that the statement you made in the last last segment is appropriate. We have a history in American politics. This is nothing new of saying we want to be our best selves. But when it comes to pulling the lever often defaulting to our worst our worst impulses our worst history you know race baiting division dog whistle politics. These have been not only long standing tropes in American politics particularly on the right but effective. And there's a reason both culturally that we reach for them that politicians reach for them but also strategically that they continue to return to them. It doesn't make it right but certainly it makes it worrisome when we think about the arc of our political trajectory and where we're headed.

DC: And when you look at where we're headed for 2020, you look at someone like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she may be a freshman, but do you think she will have outsize influence on the 2020 campaign?

SALLY KOHN: Oh without a doubt. I mean look you know we are in a interesting moment and again not unprecedented, but we're an interesting moment in certainly democratic politics because we have a sort of conventional what you might call hard power infrastructure of Pelosi and other sort of standard bearers with formal leadership. But we have these new mechanisms of what we might call soft power that are giving people who have not necessarily formal political power but what sort of cultural media communicative power more of a voice. Now I happen to think that's good. And by the way I happen to also know that Nancy Pelosi by and large thinks that's good right. That it is bringing new voices new energy new attention new ways of engaging into the Democratic Party that you're watching a party. Look if you want to characterize any of this as a struggle I'm not saying it's it's all bum free. But what you're watching is a party that's figuring out how to move toward the future. Definitely moving toward the future as opposed to a party that's trying to figure out how to go back to the past. Again the net positive is a net positive.

DC: Absolutely something for us to watch going forward. We're going have to leave it there, Sally. Thanks so much for your time today.

SALLY KOHN: Thank you.

DC: Sally Kohn is a liberal activist commentator and author of The Opposite of Hate: A Field Guide to Repairing Our Humanity. We reached her in Brooklyn, New York. The CBC News is coming up next and then rats. They're an inevitable part of life in big cities. Their numbers though are multiplying and multiplying fast. What if our best solution is kind of surrendering? I'm David Common and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Want to fight the hordes of rats in our cities? Start with the data, expert says

Guests: Chelsea Himsworth

DC: Hello. I'm David Common and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

DC: Still to come, Escaping NXIVM. Hear from former recruiters haunted by their roles in the alleged sex cult. But first, why it may be time to welcome our furry rodent overlords.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I just wanted to show you what the little buggers are doing. That's part of my basement floor. That's a hole from a tunnel that's underneath the old cement floor in the house, the old concrete.

DC: Those little buggers, they're rats and that's Dee Paul with photos of what they've done to her east end Toronto home.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The contractor busted out the area. He took a sledgehammer and basically was sounding out the areas of concrete in the basement. If it sounded hollow, he'd basically let the sledgehammer break through it and we ended up with a very large area that he likes to describe as the intersections of where the 401 and the DVP and the 404 all meet. It's how bad the tunnelling was underneath the home.

DC: OK so she's talking about some of the busiest highways in the country. The rat problem is getting worse in many Canadian cities. Toronto's seen a serious increase in rats over just the past year. Of course, they have been around forever, for years and years and years and Dee Paul still remembers vividly her first encounter.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I was coming down the stairs to my basement to go and check on my laundry early in the morning and I didn't have my glasses on and I stopped dead in my tracks because I saw something brown laying on the carpet. I screamed, ran back upstairs. My neighbour Donna came over, took one look at it and went downstairs. Sure enough, put on a pair of gloves, picked it up and out the door she went with it. So I was not going do that, but I'm really happy I had neighbours that would take care of that issue.

DC: That neighbour is Donna Devlin.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's like changing a baby's diaper. It's not the most pleasant thing, but you got to do it. The first incident my daughter had said, mom there's a big mouse in the house and it's bothering me at night. And I said okay we got two cats, they'll catch the mouse. I wasn't too concerned. Then we went out, we picked up some fruit, we put it in the fruit bowl .an hour later I came home and I said to my husband, we got a problem because I could see by the incisor marks on the bananas and the apples that this wasn't a mouse, but then I smelled something stinky in the basement. And I went looking around and it was behind the washing machine. So I had to like squint my eyes and put a bag over my hand and this is my first time picking up a dead rat.

DC: The rats were so busy tunnelling under Donna's house they caused part of her driveway to collapse. Somehow these two women still have a sense of humour about it. They've started to joke that they're known as the rat ladies and they hear from other neighbours too.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: He had gone to use his toilet in the basement. He had the lid down. You know he lifted it up and he was ready to do his business and there was a dead rat floating in the toilet. It had drowned on the way up because they can swim up from the sewer and then I told a couple other people and they told me, oh yeah we found a dead rat in our toilet too. So I've seen recommendations that if you have a toilet in the basement, just put a brick on top of your lid.

DC: Okay don't run away. That's as gross as it's going to get. Donna Devlin and Dee Paul want the city to do something about Toronto's gnawing rat problem. And we're going to get in touch with Chelsea Himsworth who agrees that municipalities should be addressing the problem, but there may be only so much they can do. Chelsea is the British Columbia regional director for the Canadian Wildlife Health Cooperative and an assistant professor at the University of British Columbia. And she joins us today from Abbotsford, B.C. Hi Chelsea.

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: Good morning.

DC: So is the rat problem actually getting worse in Canadian cities?

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: That's a great question. I think anecdotally yes we can agree we're having more and more people with stories exactly like this. But the truth is if you look for data there really is none. I get asked that all the time you know how many rights there are where they are. Why are they here. The increasing and the answer is pretty much globally we have no idea. And that's one of the reasons that we're not doing a good job of controlling them.

DC: You sometimes get amazed at the size of rats. So I had rats growing up as pets for like a couple of years and they were fun. They were just basically big gerbils, but very smart. And then I lived in New York for a while and people on the subway platform would joke you should put saddles on the rats on the tracks because you could get between the stations faster. You know, fun aside, should we worry about not just the damage that they can cause, but the disease? Because they can carry diseases.

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: Yeah absolutely we are, when we started the Vancouver Rat Project about ten years ago that was our major focus is understanding infectious disease risks and people of associated rats with disease for millennia. Because they were the source of the black plague. But the truth is they carry a number of dangerous bacteria and viruses even now. But what's more interesting and I think was very telling with the clips that you played is that our recent work shows that rats actually probably have a more significant impact on our mental health than our physical health. And most of the times health authorities don't become involved if there's not a case of physical illness. But living with rats can have issues ranging from anxiety to sleeplessness avoidance of activities you usually enjoy. So they can really impact all aspects of our lives.

DC: We also you know I think about rats and squirrels, so squirrels are mostly outside, rats can be inside our house. That's a big difference, but squirrels have got the fluffy cute little tail, rats don't have that. Are we unnecessarily freaked out by rats or is there a reason to worry?

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: This is the age old question and one that I'm still figuring out about why people are so disturbed by rats and there's so many theories out there. You know is that their historical association with disease the fact that they're kind of secretive and do they come out at night as if they have something to hide. But I think one of the big issues is the fact that they do relentlessly invade our houses and our houses are the one places where we should feel safe. We should feel under control and their ability to sort of overcome our best step attempts to exclude them I think is one of the reason we find them so distasteful.

DC: So then the question I'm sure a lot of people listening will wonder is how do you get rid of them or can you get rid of them? When you think about the entire existence of human history, rats have been there, humans have been trying to get rid of them and yet they're still there.

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: Yes. So I think that should first tell you that it's not going to be an easy fix. I think a lot of the time cities look for that magic bullet and they were going to try you know poisoning or we're going to try changes and bylaws and no one thing is going to fix the problem. But I think you really hit the nail on the head with regard to who should be in charge and there's only so much an individual citizen can do because oftentimes the rats don't respect our property boundaries and the cause of the rat infestation is something beyond their control. So if they're coming from the sewer or from a demolished building so we really need the cities to take control to have jurisdiction over the entire urban landscape to collect data and to actually have improvements on their approaches to what could cities do. So what we've been advocating for is a basically a change in perspective. So we usually think of cities as these sterile environments totally under human control but they're actually just a different form of ecosystem. And rats Believe it or not are wild animals that cohabit this ecosystem with us. And why that's beneficial. It doesn't mean we should love rats. I don't advocate for that. It also doesn't mean we should leave them alone. It's just this change of perspective that gives us new tools. So first when you recognize a city as an ecosystem you realize you have to control the whole system. So right now cities only become involved in really specific scenarios. So it's highly fragmented, sort of the antithesis of a systems based approach. Then if you realize it's a system you actually have to understand the system. So we need to make substantive investments in data collection. So where are the rats?

DC: Where are the rats?

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: What's causing them. Exactly. And not only that,what how are they interacting with humans? Where is there the most friction in this relationship? And that's what puts the new tools in our tool belt. So rather than just trap weight and trap poison we have when we actually remove the sources. And can we target it to areas that are the most problematic, lke in the home, where really rats are most largely ignored by cities.

DC: That's the order of business. Chelsea thanks so much for chatting with us today.

CHELSEA HIMSWORTH: Thank you.

DC: Chelsea Himsworth is the BC Regional Director for the Canadian Wildlife Health Cooperative. We reached her in Abbotsford.

Uncover: Escaping NXIVM - Episode 7

DC: You're listening to the summer edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm David Coleman and this summer we're highlighting the best CBC podcasts. Today, Episode 7 of the award-winning Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. Last week we introduced you to Sarah Edmondson and her husband Nippy. They're former members of NXIVM who described being blackmailed, even branded. CBC's Josh Bloch picks up the story from here.

SOUNDCLIP

[Child singing twinkle, twinkle, little star]

JB: It’s Saturday morning. Sarah and Nippy invite me over for a pancake breakfast with their son at their condo in Vancouver. Blueberry pancakes, and smoothies… and singing.

JB: Sarah and Nippy didn’t have time for this kind of thing when they were in NXIVM.

JB: Though even on a lazy Saturday, there is a still a kind of manic energy. Sarah keeps looking at her wrist, as texts and emails and phone calls come in on her Apple Watch. It’s on a fancy gold strap given to her by Nancy Salzman. I can’t imagine she was on the phone more in her NXIVM days than she is today. Whether it’s her lawyer calling about the upcoming trial of Keith Raniere and the other NXIVM leaders, where Sarah may testify. Or her agent with an audition as she refocuses on her acting career, which by the way, she says is now more inspiring than when she was making cheesy vampire TV shows. It could also be a message from former NXIVM members who make up what Sarah calls “The Resistance.” Or media requests for an interview or comment about the latest development in this story. There’s also therapy sessions over Skype with a psychoanalyst in New York who specializes in leaving cults…

SE: We've just started seeing a couples counsellor, who helped us see just sort of pointed out like ok so you know I told her I'd been diagnosed with PTSD and that's what I'm dealing with. And Nippy sort of described what’s going on for him. And so she was like sounds like you're going through depression. And when those two things are happening, it's like my PTSD is interacting with his depression. It’s not even people.

[pause]

SE: If you wanna take a look at this…

SE: This is one of Keith’s books about...

SE: If you’re interested, this is the book that Lauren gave me the night that we were branded, “The Guru and the Disciple.” It’s from Swami Muktananda.

[pause]

SE: [sigh] Oh, I fucking hate it. It’s so gross. It’s healing. It’s… it’s just so ugly. And it’s the only mark I have on my body. And at the same weird time, I know I needed that to wake up.

JB: Sarah is also figuring out what to do with the less tangible remnants of NXIVM? An entire worldview and philosophy that sometimes feels like its been seared into her brain. Her vocabulary is still riddled with NXIVM jargon. Terms like effort strategy and integration. Nippy says its been painful trying to sort out what's worth hanging on to.

[long pause]

NIPPY: I think what I was struggling with was am I a good person? In some shape or scope, it felt like I was doing dirty things for a long time, and didn't know it. What was I teaching? what was I…

NIPPY: A part of. You know as opposed to what I was thinking it was a part of was this guy's fucking M.O. the whole time? And I missed it because I was so arrogant and self-righteous about what I was doing? That's the thing. I mean really I had to reconcile my own pride and arrogance got me into it into that. I'm a good dude. I’m not going to let this fucking thing be my narrative. I’m still reconciling how I do it. I'm still embarrassed. I’m humiliated, you know? And that is going to be the way it is until I'm strong enough just to take it on the chin and be ok with the fact that I was in a fucking cult and didn't really know it.

JB: Is there anyone you’ve had to apologize to or feel like you had to apologize to?

SE: We did the apology tour.

NIPPY: There's the Elliott brothers that are in there. Mark, Justin, and Brian, and they are all beautiful people. But they've kind of dug their heels in, and I was teaching in New York, and I was kind of the teacher that kind of got them on board with what we were doing. And I told their parents I was like you know look man, I feel responsible for that. [getting emotional] I can't, I can't imagine what it's like to have three kids in there. And I just want to clean it up. I don't know how to do it. [hard swallow]

JB: During the day, I’ve been interviewing Sarah and Nippy. At night, I meet up with old friends at a bar… many who know Sarah from way back. These are people who have been wary of NXIVM for years. They’ve endured her cheesy self improvement quotes on Facebook. Her efforts to recruit family and friends. And they aren’t quite ready for Sarah to just stash her NXIVM life in a tote bag and move on.

JB: They know I’m working on this podcast, and somewhere between ordering drinks and food, we are already knee deep in it.

JB: “I have no sympathy for her.” says one friend. “She wants to be seen as a victim and a hero. What about all the people she duped into joining the organization?“

JB: They’ve all been reading the same articles popping up about Sarah since she left NXIVM.

These articles portray her as a victim: indoctrinated, manipulated, and coerced… until she left, and blew the whistle, and became a hero. My dinner dates feel that something is missing.

“Ask her how much money she made” someone asks as we chomp into our burgers. “How could she believe this bozo had all the answers?” “Where is the humility?”

JB: They saw this train wreck from miles away, and years ago.

JB: I should have recorded this conversation… though I doubt anyone would have been as candid. Since leaving NXIVM, Sarah is hearing it from all sides. As Keith’s lawyer told me, even Sarah’s former friends inside the company are upset with her. He says they knew her as an enthusiastic participant in NXIVM and DOS… who when she left, betrayed them.

[pause]

NIPPY: Josh, nice to see you.

SE: My first thought is I can see how that would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone watching who doesn't know the nuances or the intricacies of what happened between you know January of 2017 and June of 2017. It's a big you know flip that happened. You know and everything got very murky and strange and dark, at least for me. You know I'm a victim and I'm not a victim. When you when people start finding things out and lying about it is when they become, this is in my opinion, they become perpetrators. I never did that. I didn't dupe anybody. I didn't, I didn't trick anyone. I will take responsibility for my part by going public. I knew I was going to go under scrutiny by going public. But didn't matter. It’s like that's the right thing to do. And yes, I was a leader in it before. And yes, I was a champion of it. And as soon as I saw that it was actually going on, I exposed it. What else should I do? How else can I do it? I don't know. I don't know what other way to do it, or a better way to do it.

JB: Since leaving, Sarah has been trying to make amends with people… old friends with whom she lost contact once she got involved in NXIVM. Former NXIVM students upset with her role in the company. She’s been in contact with her three former slaves in DOS. None of them were branded like Sarah… one was only in DOS for a week. But they are all trying to come to terms with what happened. And Sarah says their relationship today is complicated.

SE: I think there's a legitimacy to that point in terms of like you know making good money and feeling like you know wow, isn't this amazing that I'm getting paid to help people achieve their goals and dreams! You know that's great. There was always there was red flags from the beginning, but I was also taught that that was my own issues.

[pause]

JB: It says bullying tactics. HIgh-pressure...

SE: Not like that. Most of the time, I just shared my experience, listened to whatever it was they were going through, and said I think this can help with this, this, and this. If they said like, for example, I want to, but don't have the money. Then I would say Imagine you know you got to pay for some surgery, and you to come up with 2,000 dollars. Where would you find it? And would we just figure out how to either borrow it, or sell something, or oftentimes I lent them the money because I believed in it so much. Like if somebody really wanted to do it and money was truly the issue, I'd pay for them.

JB: And in hindsight, I mean do you feel like you come to terms with the damage that might have been done to people who overextended themselves financially?

SE: [pause, thinking] Do I feel entitled? Honestly, Josh, I don't know. I could argue both ways. On one hand, I worked my butt off for 12 years, and for many of those years unpaid. And then when I was starting to make money, yes, I made good money. And then I I believe I used it for good. If I had it liquid now, I would dole it out. I don't have that.

JB: What kind of responsibility do you have for the fact that people in your organization are using these kind of tactics to get people to sign up?

SE: I don't know. I feel like the way that I have spoken up and putting myself out there is the most that I can do to make up for where I didn't speak up. So yeah, I guess I do feel responsible. But I also know how cults work now, and I can't beat myself up in that way. And when I had the information, I did the best it could. You know. This is hard.

SE: Because so much of the recovery has been learning to not be so hard on myself. And that's what you know the first few months were is just you know beating myself up for all of these things that you're bringing up. And I know you're not trying to... you know you're doing your job. But it's like revisiting these things is like it just brings up a lot of that stuff. You know questioning myself and that the narrative has to be you know you didn't know, you had the best of intentions, when you found out, you did the right thing. I have to keep telling myself that.

[Sound: Rattling, kid talking]

KID: But I’m bigger now...

JB: I’ve thought about Sarah’s mom a lot over the past year. Sarah and her mom have always been close. But NXIVM took a heavy toll on their relationship. Her mom was anxious about where Sarah was heading, but she didn’t know what to do. She wondered whether an intervention would work, or just push Sarah away, which also meant losing contact with her grandson.

SE: You know I really appreciate having my mom here. She used to be in childhood education, so I’ll show up at her house and she’ll have little stations set up like the do at daycare with the little activities. Sarah’s mom hasn’t spoken to any media since Sarah’s departure from NXIVM, but she agreed to let me record a conversation so long as I don’t use her name or mention her occupation.

She’s worried it could damage her professional reputation if she was linked to this story. She is also terrified of NXIVM. Even after the arrests of its leadership. She knows how litigious they are.

JB: We arrive at her mom’s familiar townhouse in the upscale Kitsilano neighbourhood of Vancouver.

JB: Have I changed?

SE: And as much facial hair.

MOM: – Yeah [laugh]. It’s hard to tell.

MOM: What are you wearing honey?

MOM: Oh, they look really nice on you.

JB: Sarah tucks her legs under her. Her mom sips a coffee. Sarah swigs a green smoothie she brought from home.

JB: I pull a chair up close…

MOM: Well, I do feel nervous about talking about it.

SE: That's fine. Whatever you feel comfortable with.

JB: When Sarah left NXIVM, she stayed with her mom for a while in this house. It’s been almost a year, but they are still processing it all.

MOM: Yes.

[pause]

MOM: Yes, I do remember. And it was one of the scariest moments of being your mom I ever experienced.

JB: How much did you see Sarah change over the time? I mean she was in it for 12 years, and in various capacities. Did you see a change in her?

MOM: It's really hard because you are at the age of your late 20s of individuating, and you are supposed to go out on your own and develop your own thinking. And I'm saying and go and do your own thing and then thinking... but you're not developing your own thinking, you're taking on somebody else's thinking.

MOM: Well, it was kind of framed and told both of us that we have this dependent/independent relationship. So I got the feeling that you were being coached to not… uhh….

JB: I can see irritation flash across Sarah’s mom’s face. It’s like catching a glimpse of what their dynamic was like when Sarah was fully immersed in NXIVM and glued to her phone.

SE: Sory, I’m here. I’m here.

JB: Sarah’s mom suffers from chronic health issues that got worse when Sarah was in NXIVM. When I saw her on Hornby last year, she was wearing special sunglasses because of a serious eye condition. NXIVM teaches that being sick is a parasite strategy — a way of being dependent on other people. As Sarah’s mom’s health declined, Sarah drew back.

MOM: I felt your resentment, and that was really hard on me. And I think that it wasn't was not doing it. It was the resentment that was hard on our relationship and hard on my health. I felt your distance that I know you thought I was doing something wrong to cause this and that you didn’t want to be around me.

JB: You recruited your mom?

JB: Sarah’s mom took a number of NXIVM courses. She even attended a few V-Weeks.

she wanted to stay close to her daughter, and her grandson, and to keep tabs on the group. And what she saw concerned her.

JB: Sarah’s mom stops herself and whispers to Sarah….

JB: I can feel her uneasiness…

MOM: Yes, I did. I thought it was a cult because my definition of a cult is that everybody thinks the same way. And when there's that kind of leadership. When it's so leader focused there's always that danger.

MOM: Yeah. You protected him. I mean I think that I kept hearing, or sensing that anybody who was questioning something was going to be ostracized. So I never heard you question him at all.

MOM: Yes. I think that's the bind I was constantly in. Because for me, the most important thing is I love you more than anything. And you know I did not want to lose you. So that there was a lot of line beyond which I couldn't go. And you were very clear that you didn't want to talk about it most of the time. And the other thing was that you were saying Mom, this is for life. This is what I'm going to be in for life. So you might as well get used to it. I was thinking oh my God, you know?

MOM: Yeah.

[long pause]

MOM: I cannot tell you how much joy and relief I have to have her back. It's like in my body the most huge sense of gratitude, and really relief.

MOM: No.

[Sound: On a plane]

KG: And Kathleen.

MA: The answers are going to come in the courtroom. And the answers are going to come in the context of these charges. He’s pled not guilty, and our position is that he is not guilty of those charges...

JB: I find Barbara Bouchey, Keith’s ex-girlfriend, and one of the leaders of the NXIVM 9. She is standing just outside the courthouse. She came here early to make sure she’d get a seat.

BB: [sad] Do you want to go in?

JB: We head into the courtroom. There’s about 70 people sitting on wooden benches in the gallery waiting for Keith to arrive. It’s a kind of reunion with the cast of folks we’ve met over the past year There’s Barbara in the front row. Keith’s ex girlfriend Toni Natalie is sitting a few seats over, still wearing her Orange Jumpsuit bracelet. Barbara hasn’t seen Keith for almost a decade, and Toni twice as long. We sit down next to Barry Meier — the journalist who broke Sarah’s story in The New York Times. After a half hour delay, the gallery falls silent. Keith enters the courtroom through a side door.

JB: He heads to his seat. He has a curious bounce in his step like a schoolboy. And sits down with his lawyers about 20 feet in front of me. His jumpsuit is taupe not orange. And his face is flush. He needs a haircut. Here is Vanguard in the flesh. It feels like he’s walked out of a novel… or a movie screen. I’m riveted. I don’t want to miss anything. I feel like I’m straining to pick up a sign — any hint of who he really is… something that will reveal his magical powers. Many people have told me about the first time they met Keith. They said they were surprised at how unassuming he is. In a way that’s how I feel too… slightly disappointed at his ordinariness. But I’m also transfixed. This man convinced so many people, including Sarah, that he was an enlightened being.

JB: I’ve heard so much about Keith from Sarah...I wonder now what he thinks of her? The woman he mentored and helped climb through the ranks of his organization. One of his female disciples that helped prop him up for so many years, and then turned against him. Did he underestimate her?

JB: Keith waives his right to seek bail with a couple soft-spoken and deferential “yes your honours.” The whole thing lasts less than 10 minutes, and Keith exits stage right.

SE: I just realized somebody left a napkin here and has a phone number on it and now it's covered it's snot. So I hope they don’t need that…

SE: [blubblers, exhale] I didn’t think you’d made me cry. I was I feeling so good.

SE: [nose blow] Well, I think psychologically I was drawn into how good it felt to be part of something that was valuable. I felt valuable because of that. And you know that my circumstances prior, being an actor and like living in a basement suite and feeling like that wasn't my purpose and then finding my purpose.

SE: Yeah. I went to that cruise specifically stating the intention of figuring out my purpose. And then when I met Mark and heard about it it was like oh, this is this is my purpose. This is my purpose — to build a community to help people reach their goals. Even now, Josh, I still think that's part of my purpose, but not through NXIVM. I just bet on the wrong horse.

JB: I guess I mean this is most likely the end of our journey on this story together and I wondered if you had questions for me?

SE: I do, this is going to be too long though. I don't know I guess my first thought is because it's you, versus any other interview where a journalist is what's it like to do this with your background knowing me from daycare.

JB: I mean I think it's obviously a pretty crazy story. And so to know someone it's not just a crazy story that happened to a random person. It's a crazy story it happened to someone you know. But I had no idea when we ran into each other how big and complicated this story was. It's not a simple story to tell at the farmer's market at Hornby Island.

SE: No it's not. And I have to go because my metre is up and I have a 2:30 audition, which is in like 8 minutes.

JB: Oh God. Just explain to them about what's going on.

SE: Just a big deal. In a cult for twelve years.

JB: OK. Bye.

SE: K. Bye.

[Music]

DC: You have been listening to the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. In June, NXIVM's founder Keith Raniere was convicted of racketeering and sex trafficking. You can tune in tomorrow for Episode 8 and of course you can catch up on any episodes you may have missed. That's at cbc.ca/podcasting. And that is our program for today. But stay tuned to Radio One for Q with Tom Power. They're exploring a new fashion trend called Digital Clothing. So these are virtual clothes you buy online and then they're edited on to photos of you. Before you go looking for those digital pants, remember you can find The Current online too. We're always there for you on the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store and Google Play. I'm David Common. Thanks very much for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

July 16, 2019 episode transcript

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