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The Current Transcript for July 15, 2019

Host: David Common

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Don't let your guard down thinking the worst is behind us because the National Weather Service is telling us when it comes to rain, the exact opposite is true. And some people may think that the threat is over. That is not the case.

DAVID COMMON: The levy's held in New Orleans, but there has been flooding and there is damage after a tropical storm. The risk continues today as that storm moves north. We're checking in with our reporter on the ground and a local who remembers Katrina and helps us understand what's different now. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: That's one small step for man. One giant leap for mankind.

DC: Neil Armstrong's first step left a footprint that's still on the moon today. There's nothing protecting it. Another space explorer could drive their rover right over it. In the week marking 50 years since the moon landing, we'll be looking at preserving history way, way up there. And.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: That's really what the government's saying. All of these successful adults have essentially been brainwashed and they're not acting in their own true self interest. I just don't think there's such a thing as brainwashing.

DC: You may claim adults can't be brainwashed, but a court saw things differently. In our continuation of the Uncover: Escaping NXIVM podcast, we hear from sex cult leader Keith Raniere's lawyer. I'm David Common and this is the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

In the wake of Barry, lifelong Louisiana resident says more could be done to address extreme weather

Guests: Lauren Morris, Jacqueline Hansen, Dale Morris

DC: New Orleans was largely spared the destruction that Hurricane Barry threatened, but officials warn that people in Barry's path are not yet in the clear. The weekend saw flooded roads, power outages and rescues for dozens of trapped residents in Louisiana and Mississippi and now the slow moving storm is dumping heavy rains as it makes its way through Arkansas and into Missouri. The first hurricane of the Atlantic storm season was quickly downgraded to a tropical storm after making landfall on Saturday. By Sunday night it had been downgraded again to a tropical depression, but before Berry even came ashore the damage was already done for parts of New Orleans. Dr. Lauren Morris was forced to close her dental office last week, but hopes to open it up again this week. And we reached Dr. Morris at her home in Slidell, Louisiana. Hello.

LAUREN MORRIS: Good morning.

DC: What was the situation like in the lead up and then once the storm actually came ashore?

LAUREN MORRIS: Sure. Well Wednesday morning on the way to work, not thinking anything of it just heavy rain lots of downpours been even making it to the office that morning because all of a sudden he hit traffic. You wonder what's going on. On the radio they're speaking of flash flooding and by the time that I did actually make it to the city, it was just total chaos, disaster. Everywhere you turned, every part of the city was basically flooded.

DC: And this is three days before the storm even hit officially?

LAUREN MORRIS: Correct. So we were already, we already had the storm on our radar, kind of preparing for it, but that warning just kind of unexpected and out of out of nowhere.

DC: And then once it actually came ashore, I know by that point you were at home, did you see even more evidence of flooding at that point?

LAUREN MORRIS: Actually this time around New Orleans was spared. Again, I live about 30 minutes outside. So lots of rain, but no flooding. So we actually got lucky again.

DC: Nonetheless you decided to close. What was it that said to you, I'm going to close my office?

LAUREN MORRIS: Well definitely every time that we get floodwaters in the office, we do have to do some minor constructions, cut out the sheet rock, redo a lot of things just to prevent mould, considering that we are a medical facility. Not only that, but the dental chairs actually that sit on the floor have electrical components. So once the water reaches that it's a whole nother scenario of just trying to get the dental chairs to operate for us.

DC: So what do you do? Do you just disconnect the power to those chairs or do you actually have to take them out?

LAUREN MORRIS: There was one incident because again I have been flooded four times now, where we actually had to replace the whole entire chair and we were actually down for three weeks. But now that it's kind of a recurring theme that we see, unfortunately I have learned to unplug the chairs, put things higher in order to minimize how much damage we have in the office.

DC: Now you were able to ride out the storm and the flash floods, which came before it, which sounds like they ended up being worse than the storm itself, but I know a lot of people left town and some people under evacuation orders. Did you have friends or family who left?

LAUREN MORRIS: I did have a few friends and family that did evacuate. Down here normally if it's not like a Category 2-3 storm, most folks just ride it out. But is becoming to a point where the storms are so unpredictable the flooding is so unpredictable that people are starting to evacuate more often than in the past. Just to be on the safe side because again the storms are so unpredictable and we don't know what to expect.

DC: You know when you talk about the past, I know we and certainly you would think back 14 years to Hurricane Katrina. You lived through that. What is the impact on you the lasting legacy?

LAUREN MORRIS: Well Hurricane Katrina still has impacts on me even so today. I mean when you just look around the city certain parts of the city still are established and developed because of Hurricane Katrina. It's force a lot of people away from what they would normally call home. And also I believe that the residents are wondering after Katrina they had a lot of money going into the infrastructure of the pumping of the pump stations as well as the levees to help prevent the flooding. Now that we're getting so much flooding we're wondering. What's happened. What's going on. Why are these pumping stations failing goes. What's going on with the levees. So I think just a lot of questions questions that are going on as well as also just that the tiny a little bit of fear like what's going to happen next and when because we never know when.

DC: When you look at the federal response, when you look at the city response, do you feel better protected today than you did in the aftermath of Katrina?

LAUREN MORRIS: Honestly I don't. And I think a lot of people have the same sentiment because most people are wondering well what's happening. We didn't even look like this when Hurricane Katrina or prior to hurting Katrina. So now that we are getting consisting flooding and officials say that we can't even manage a hard downpour it's kind of like what would you do. What's happening. Where's the money going to if any for the infrastructure. And I think the citizens the residents of New Orleans are just getting frustrated and also concerned about you know property and just their homes.

d: Dr. Morris that leaves us with a lot of questions to continue our discussion. Thank you very much for chatting with us and good luck opening your office this week.

LAUREN MORRIS: Thank you so much.

DC: That's Dr. Lauren Morris who runs Smile Philosophy Dental Care in New Orleans. We reached her at her home in Slidell, Louisiana. Now Hurricane Barry marks the first major Atlantic storm of the season, but the Gulf Coast will be on watch for hurricanes straight through until November. CBC reporter Jacqueline Hansen has been in Louisiana since last week and we have reached her in New Orleans. Hello.

JACQUELINE HANSEN: Hi David.

DC: So we were talking to Dr. Morris about what she was seeing and hearing. Give us the bigger picture in what you have seen over that time in your travels in Louisiana.

JACQUELINE HANSEN: Yeah well that flooding that she mentioned on Wednesday, so earlier in the week, that was a big concern for a lot of people because the ground was so saturated in New Orleans that there were worries that if it rained any more, the rain, the water it just wouldn't have anywhere to go. But it probably helped in some ways David because people were told to stock up on everything that they needed. And in North New Orleans they were told to go home shelter in place and essentially wait for the storm to pass. You'll remember that the storm it was expected to make landfall Friday night overnight four to midnight but it didn't it wasn't until late Saturday. So people were waiting and waiting and waiting for this storm to hit and it never really did in the way that they were expected which was a relief for most people there were other people in different areas that were affected more. But for most people it was a relief.

DC: Yeah it's funny when you think about it that it's all the build-up of waiting and waiting and waiting for landfall but then it turns out the bad stuff which was in limited levels, relative certainly to Katrina, it came before the storm. All of that storm surge and all that water. And when you look at the people that you've been talking to, you know who stands out for you of the people you've talked to?

JACQUELINE HANSEN: Well you know it's interesting, people reflecting on Katrina like you were just there and also experiencing the weather leading up to it. So we were in Mandeville, which was just it's directly north of New Orleans and it's 50 kilometres across Lake Pontchartrain. So that lake it was pushed by the wind and into the town. Now this happens in this town because of where it's located, but the water was pushed up and flooded the streets there. But one of the residents I talked to said that you know post Katrina there were improvements made in their community as well. It was there's a seawall that was erected. And he said that it actually he felt it wasn't helping at all that it was actually creating worse conditions. The water was getting dark in the dark in the lakefront area rather than flowing out of it. So you know people definitely experienced this storm in in different ways. And that was sort of the beginning of it that hit them there. But we went to different areas, Baton Rouge the capital of Louisiana. And in that area yesterday the rain bands were coming through and it was heavy heavy rain and we were driving. It was difficult to see. There was hydroplaning happening but that people we spoke to there you know they they were nervous that these flash flooding warnings would create you know circumstances that ended up flooding their homes. There was one woman that. She was with her son digging a trench along the side of her house against the backyard. DAVID It was just full of water. Probably a foot of water in her backyard. This is the area that she lives in its low lying. It just collects water but it was really interesting what she said to me David she said that she you know if you see her house and it floods every time that there's a heavy heavy rain. But these warnings make her even more nervous. But why doesn't she just move somewhere else in Louisiana. That would you know, right, but she said yeah but it's the neighbouring town that gets hit next time or the one over there or the one over there. So there's no way to really escape it in her mind.

DC: And there's just fewer areas to move to in New Orleans as Dr. Morris was pointing out to us that many areas post-Katrina still haven't been rebuilt that are still considered either too hazardous or too damaged. And you know this of course is the beginning of the hurricane season for the region. Do you see uncertainty worry among people who have to live with this sort of four five months of the year?

JACQUELINE HANSEN: You know I actually felt like most people I talked to were used to it. Just this is going to happen. They got to be ready for it. They're prepared now. You know if they didn't use all of the stuff that they stocked up on for this storm, they can keep it, hold on to it and wait for the next storm. And and you know some of these areas really are more prone to flooding than others. In Mandeville the houses are are permanently lifted like it's part of the structure, the aesthetic of the house. The houses are lifted. So they're ready for it.

DC: Jacqueline Hansen thanks very much.

JACQUELINE HANSEN: You're welcome.

DC: Jacqueline Hansen is a senior reporter with CBC News and she was joining us from New Orleans. Now that city and the surrounding areas have invested billions of dollars to learn from the mistakes of Katrina as we were talking about and to protect against future disasters. And for more on what they've got right, what they haven't quite got right and how the region is adapting, we are joined now by Dale Morris from the Water Institute of the Gulf. It is based in Baton Rouge, but Dale is this morning in Charleston, South Carolina. Hello.

DALE MORRIS: Good morning.

DC: So we are hearing of more flooding, we are hearing of concerns from residents that perhaps not enough has been done. How well equipped do you think Louisiana's flood infrastructure is?

DALE MORRIS: So I think that the investments made post-Katrina and the ongoing investments that the state and the parishes and the municipalities are making they're good Whether they're sufficient over the long term you know I think that's an open question. I think you know that the seas are rising and in Louisiana and in other places along the U.S. East Coast and in Florida the Gulf of Mexico the land is subsiding. So you have these two things combining that is just bringing more water and it is also as we see this change certainly in the last decade maybe longer. But certainly the last decade of the storms that are coming by they're slower moving and sometimes Harvey Harvey hung around Houston for four days and you see now Barry moving up the Mississippi River Valley a little bit to the east of it and it's slower moving. So more rain is being dropped and that's the drainage systems the manmade and natural drainage systems and pumping systems that are there to move the waterway. They're being overwhelmed. They're not designed for this much rain. So I mean I think the initiatives in Louisiana are top notch, but I think we can't let our foot off the gas pedal. I think we're going to have to make more investments, not just in Louisiana, but around the U.S., around the U.S. Gulf Coast and the East Coast.

DC: New Orleans has been taking some inspiration from what has been done for for decades and decades and decades in the Netherlands, working on some innovative ways to just live with water as opposed to trying to fight it back. What are some of the things that they've been doing, the things they've been learning?

DALE MORRIS: Well so again with these slower moving storms to deal with the storm water flooding or freshwater flooding rainfall you have to create space in your landscape and in your environment in your backyards or in the playgrounds of schools or in parking garages a number of different ways you can adapt your the human environment to store more stormwater so that the pumping systems and the drainage systems are not overwhelmed as quickly. So I don't want to get too technical but in New Orleans the pumping system which is one of the largest in the world two of the largest pumping stations a rotor there. So it's a very robust system. It is designed to pump one inch of rain in the first hour and a half an inch of rain every hour after that. So if the rainfall meets up with algae you don't get flooding. But as we see last Wednesday in New Orleans you had this flood to this sorry this this cloudburst that drums that it dumped six inches of rain in a couple of hours. And so naturally if the water isn't diverted into some purpose driven channels or parks or storage areas it's going to flood cars flood roads and not flood people's homes. And so this city is apt to adaptations are very important. One of the things that they're working on right now in New Orleans is something called the Gentilly Resilience District and Gentilly is a neighbour up close to the lakefront in New Orleans and there is an old convent there. The Sisters of St. Anthony were using the convent for 150-160 years and it had been flooded repeatedly and after Katrina the nuns just decided they were wanted to do something else with it and moved to Baton Rouge and they did. And they threw work that we did with them years ago. They deeded the property over to the city of the city used it for an amenity. So right now they are constructing a water garden and this is a large size 25 acres. They're constructing water gardens and that will take the rainfall from the neighbourhood and put it into this water garden store there. So it's not stored in the streets and it's not stored in people's homes until the pumping system can catch up to it.

DC: What's does a water garden look like? Is that just a lake?

DALE MORRIS: No it's it's a park. And when it's not wet there are battlefields battlefields there and community gardens there so it's providing an amenity in the time just not storing water so it's usable. It's just like any other park. But you you design it so that when heavy rains come along water that would otherwise be in the streets or is getting backed up in the drainage system or diverted into that park and the water will be stored there and you can do small interventions like this again in the Netherlands. There is a an underground parking garage that was placed in a new redevelopment district around a hospital and museums and the parking was needed. But the city required the developer of the parking garage. Put a chamber in the garage itself that a lot of the excess stormwater would flow into that chamber and not into the streets. And then when the storm passed and the tide was it would drain naturally down into there into the river. So there are a lot of creative interventions here.

DC: You know I am amazed by the number of things that you talk about being done, but I do wonder when you look at whether it's Katrina or Harvey or Irma or Maria, these big giant storms that have been hitting U.S. coastal cities for years now, what do you think the impact is on people's psyches?

DALE MORRIS: Well I think it was interesting that your reporter noticed that people in New Orleans last evening were feeling good and this happens, but in all honesty I think you know they're very fortunate that the storm track the way it did and there are other people who are less fortunate that Barry tracked and I do think certainly here in Charleston and in Florida people were prepared and they understand this. But I think we're also becoming numb to the recurrence of this. And then I also think we are underestimating the impact upon people's lives because the federal government when it comes in in a disaster response certainly over the last decade or two it is only providing recovery money for schools and roads and housing people temporarily. And meanwhile most of the economic losses and losses to property are borne by the homeowner or the city limits the power. So the federal government again really 20 to 30 percent. And if you're not insured this disruption to lives is tremendous. If a storm comes along and the damage that you're having right now we're going to see over the next couple days coming from Barry I mean this will be a billion dollar or two billion dollar event. There is no doubt.

DC: And this is of course on a storm that people think is not as big as everything else. Dale, unfortunately we've run out of time. We would have to leave it there, but thanks very much.

DALE MORRIS: You're very welcome.

DC: That is Dale Morris with the Water Institute of the Gulf. We reached him in Charleston, South Carolina. The CBC News is coming up next and then as the 50th anniversary of the moon landing approaches, we look at the fight to preserve things like Neil Armstrong's lunar footprint. Should the moon be considered an out of this world heritage site? I'm David Common and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music]

Space archeologist says heritage protections needed to stop people trampling the moon landing site

Guests: Beth O’Leary

DC: Hello. I'm David Common and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

DC: Still to come, the leader for NXIVM, Keith Raniere answers questions and accusations that his client was running a sex cult. But first, Space Age archaeology.

[Music]

DC: How do you preserve a historical site that belongs to no one? 5- years after Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin first set foot on the moon, the site where the Apollo 11 touched down, still looks pretty much like it did when those two astronauts turned around and headed home. But there's nothing to say that will always be that way. Some scientists are arguing that we should preserve our space heritage the way we would any other historical site on earth. Beth O'Leary is one of those scientists. She's a professor emerita at New Mexico State University and a space archaeologist and we've reached her in Las Cruces, New Mexico. Hi Beth.

BETH O'LEARY: Hi David. How are you?

DC: I'm pretty good. So look last week I was at the Canadian Space Agency looking at some of the lunar rovers that they're building for the next moon mission, whenever that may be, but what would prevent me or someone else from taking one of those rovers and driving all over the footsteps of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin?

BETH O'LEARY: Well at this point there are no legal restrictions, but we would hope that the social sanctions of destroying one of the most extraordinary sites that humankind has ever created would prevent anybody from getting that close or affecting those characteristics that make it so extraordinary.

DC: But what is the likelihood that someone would do that? That someone would destroy what has been done in terms of the work on the moon or elsewhere in space?

BETH O'LEARY: I think the risk is inadvertent. You know we don't exactly have the technology now commercially to be as precise as we need to be because you know it's a risky mission going into space. And if you know about the Apollo 11 landing Neil Armstrong was supposed to land one place and he looked at the surface and said not a good place to land and pilot it to a place that was safe to land.

DC: And what kind of protections exist, if any, to preserve things whether it's on the moon or elsewhere?

BETH O'LEARY: Well the 1967 treaty really said that those nations that put objects or personnel on another celestial body like the moon retain ownership so that they there's a group of regulations. Actually I should call them recommendations by NASA in 2011 that kind of lays out where space faring nations should go and that the Apollo 11 and the Apollo 17 especially are two of the very most important sites that should be protected. So those guidelines should be able to guide people into how to not affect the area.

DC: But I hear you saying should be protected and I hear you saying guidelines, I don't hear you saying rules or laws or things that people are definitely following.

BETH O'LEARY: That's right and there isn't yet. It needs to be international in scope and you know there's an international presence on the moon now. The moon was set aside as a global common. You know space is not a vacuum. We carry our culture into space. So again we need to find ways that all nations would agree that these sites are extraordinarily important.

DC: How do you do that?

BETH O'LEARY: You do it through the U.N. probably. You do it through agreements among spacefaring nations that these sites should be preserved for all mankind and that's essentially you know what Neil Armstrong said when he stepped off onto the surface of the moon. He also said we left a lot of stuff up there, but he said you know we come in peace for all mankind. So again if we look at humanity and all the brilliant minds and the scientists and the physicists going back in time, it's humanity's site and every culture has the relationship to the moon, whether they've been there or not. The moon is a presence in the night sky that's important to First Nations people, to Native Americans, to all people all over the world.

DC: So we talk about the things that are worth preserving. Does that include stuff that we've thrown out there? Space junk.

BETH O'LEARY: Well you know the word junk is really what archaeologists trade in. For you the word junk to us means artefacts. So those artefacts are important material culture that can be studied that we can understand the evolution of our technology to get into space because this is a pretty recent phenomenon. I mean we're talking about the last 60 years. So again that junk, whether it's referred to as junk or debris or artefacts, are things we can study to understand the evolution of humankind.

DC: If as you say the United Nations gets together and looks at a way to actually put binding rules on preserving sites, whether it's Tranquillity Base from Apollo 11 or subsequent missions to the moon, would there be any concern that that would place limits on the freedom of exploration? I mean if you basically said you can't go to these places, you can't disturb these places.

BETH O'LEARY: Well all preservation really asks for caution. It asks for the the impacts to be minimal and to get the most information from that particular site that can be gotten. We have heritage plans all over the world. Canada has a heritage registry. The United States does and it is regulated by permitting and permitting is by scientists who want to know something you have a research design not everything can be preserved but certainly the most significant and important sites should be preserved for future generations because that's what heritage is.

DC: I want to ask you just something a bit more abstract about space archaeology itself because you are a space archaeologist, but I'm making an assumption you haven't been to the moon.

BETH O'LEARY: No I had a grant from NASA in 2000, but it didn't have that much funding.

DC: Didn't have that yet and it costs a lot of money to get all the way up there. It costs a lot of money just to get into space. So how do you do archaeology work when you can't get to the place?

BETH O'LEARY: Well we're very lucky we have a lot of documentation. NASA took many many photographs has a lot of documents and then the LRO mission in 2009.

DC: What was on that?

BETH O'LEARY: That was the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter which took pictures of the lunar surface and got down to about 15 kilometres from the surface and we could see the actual tracks, the trails of the Apollo 11 astronauts and some of the artefacts that were left. The big ones. It wasn't quite at the resolution of space archaeologists would like, but boy that remote sensing was just an amazing accomplishment.

DC: So that's the kind of thing that you continue to work on when you speak of space archaeology?

BETH O'LEARY: That's right. And it's a double pronged thing it's it's looking at what's there because surprisingly enough there are a lot of things that are missing. There are a lot of things even in the work that I did on the tranquillity base I'm not sure I've gotten everything yet. So we look through documents we look through photographs make maps of the site just in the same way we would do it for a historic site in Toronto.

DC: Yeah and I mean when you think about Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were really only at that base for what was it two and a half hours and I know we've had photos in the year since, but it's not like a really detailed exploration.

BETH O'LEARY: No and they were there about 20 hours, but they were walking around.

DC: They were? Excuse me then.

BETH O'LEARY: You know it's interesting to look at how people explore. Was their exploration similar to the exploration of you know Columbus or other groups that explore different universes? So again we can look at this in a very long historical perspective. That's what archaeologists do. They're looking at the relationship between patterns of material culture and patterns of human behaviour.

DC: Tomorrow marks the day that the Apollo 11 mission left Earth and then Saturday marks the actual 50th anniversary of those first steps. I wasn't around then. Can I be so bold as to ask whether you were around then?

BETH O'LEARY: I absolutely was. Most people I talked to weren't, but I was. I was a student in Norway and I watched them land on the moon in a little black and white TV and I can't tell you how exciting that moment was for me. I wanted to be an astronaut growing up and of course there weren't any female astronauts at that time. It took Valentina Tereshkova in 1963, a Soviet astronaut cosmonaut, and then 20 years later Sally Ride.

DC: Norway must have been a fascinating place to be because you're wedged between the West and the Soviet Union at that time. These two countries, these two beasts that were locked in the space race against one another.

BETH O'LEARY: That's right and you know they share a border in the north with the former Soviet Union and so it was a tense time. It was the height of the Cold War and you have to remember these sights on the moon are part of the heritage of the Cold War too. Many people say we might not have gotten to the moon without that competition between the west and the east.

DC: Would you still like to go?

BETH O'LEARY: I would. John Glenn went and he was older than I was.

DC: Oh so you've thought about the argument you could make to NASA?

BETH O'LEARY: Yeah I think I've got enough work cut out for me here, but I'm hoping that in the future many nations will join in really evaluating what's up there and saying what is it that we need to preserve and what's the best way to preserve it because I think the time is now. 50 years is two generations. It's time to start preservation now.

DC: That's super. Beth, thanks so much for chatting with us.

BETH O'LEARY: Well thank you. I appreciate your call.

DC: That is Beth O'Leary who is a space archaeologist and professor emerita at New Mexico State University and we reached her in Las Cruces, New Mexico. We're gonna have more coverage of the 50th anniversary, the Apollo 11 moon landing later this week, including a conversation with Canadian astronaut Roberta Bondar and Charles Fishman, author of One Giant Leap. I'll also have a story on The National tonight looking at what comes next for space exploration, the next time they hope to put a person on the moon and more travels perhaps all the way to Mars after that.

[Music]

Uncover: Escaping NXIVM – Episode 6

DC: You are listening to the summer edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm David Common. This summer we're highlighting the best CBC podcasts and today Episode 6 of the award-winning Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. Last week we heard from former members of the group. They described being blackmailed and even branded. They accused NXIVM's leader of running a sex cult. He has since been convicted of racketeering and sex trafficking and will be sentenced in September. Today, we hear Keith Raniere's side of the story through his lawyer. This is Escaping NXIVM.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: Can I get you to start off by just by introducing yourself? What's your name and your role in this specific case?

MARC AGNIFILO: I just thought that, that it's very easy in matters like this to have everyone talking about one viewpoint and not another viewpoint. I mean I think that you know the government's viewpoint is very clear. I think it's errant, and I think it's not the whole picture. But it's very clear that this is essentially you know a sex cult, and that there's sex trafficking. And my concern in matters like this is that there is another viewpoint…...

JB: I’m Josh Bloch. This is “Escaping NXIVM” from “CBC Podcasts Uncover.”

JB: Chapter 6: “The Defence”

JB: Since the start of this investigation, my questions for Keith have been piling up. I’ve wanted to hear his perspective on all kinds of things. What does he think of the allegation that he’s the head of a cult? Was he running DOS, or wasn’t he? What was DOS for? And why did membership involve branding his initials on the women who joined?

The problem was reaching him… or anyone from his inner circle.

JB: My producer, Anita tried to contact Keith.

JB: The voicemail on his personal cell phone didn’t take messages. Emails were never answered.

JB: She tried Allison Mack.

JB: Nancy and Lauren Salzman…

NS: If you need to get a hold of me in a hurry, the best way is to send a text...

JB: She left voicemails, sent emails, texts, and even sent a courier.

JB: We went to Clifton Park, where Keith and his clan lived. Most of them weren’t there, or wouldn’t talk to us.

ESP EMPLOYEE: Who are you?

[Sound: A montage of newscasts]

[Sound: A phone connecting]

SE: [SINGING] It’s a beautiful day in the neighbourhood [LAUGHING], a beautiful day in to be a neighbour. Won’t you be my…

SE: I did. I could have slept until eight, and I woke up at six like ‘boop’ out of bed!

SE: Got a text message that says Nancy’s house in Knox Woods is being raided as we speak. Right now the FBI are raiding Nancy Salzman’s home. [Sarah screams in the background. Cheering in the background]

[Sound: Phone ringing]

SE: It is unravelling so fucking fast.

REPOPTER: Four more people have been arrested in the alleged sex cult, NXIVM — including an heiress to the Seagram’s liqour fortune...

JB: It really feels like this has been taken up to, taken up another level.

SE: It’s such a weird mixture of feelings, Josh. It’s like… you know vindication and sadness all rolled into one. Do I feel badly for her? Yeah. Do I think she deserves it? Yeah.

JB: Along with Keith and Allison Mack, they’re all accused of racketeering conspiracy. They all plead not guilty.

SE: It’s huge!!

[Sound: A phone dialing]

JB: But then, Anita gets through to Keith’s lawyer, Marc Agnifilo.

ANITA: mhhm hmmm.

ANITA: Hmmm. Hmmm. Okay. Alright.

JB: He speaks to me at the beginning of August from our studio in Manhattan.

[Theme Music]

MA: I saw Keith on Friday. I'll probably see him again later today. I see him about four times a week. He's in a maximum security facility in Brooklyn called the Metropolitan Detention Center, which is essentially a pre-trial facility for the most part. It's where people wait until they have their trial. But these pre-trial facilities are all maximum security facilities, and that's what this prison is. So it's very harsh detention conditions. He doesn't go outside. And I think it's important for him to just kind of keep his mind sharp, and also for me as his lawyer to learn as much about the case as I can. I saw him Friday, and I'm seeing again this afternoon.

JB: And how would you describe his state of mind right now?

JB: Well, he, in fact, claims to be one of the smartest men in the world. I wondered is that... did you find that?

AM: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I think especially with Keith, Keith would walk 15 miles... 15 to 20 miles a day when he was living in Clifton Park you know in the woods through the you know down hiking trails and on the streets. And so it's very different. One of the things that's sort of amazing is he's found a way to continue to walk 15 to 20 miles a day. And what he's done is he's sort of paced out a circle. And by using geometry, I'm not saying this makes him the smartest man in the world, but he does know how to do geometry. He was able to determine the circumference of the circle. And he's able to walk 15 or 20 miles a day around a fairly small circle. So yeah, life has changed. You know once he was walking through the woods and on hiking paths and in these beautiful you know natural environments. And now he's walking literally in a circle in a maximum security facility.

MA: That is what the FBI says.

MA: I don't think that's true. And I don't think that that will be proven true at a trial. I think the government's position is a tricky one. And I'll tell you why. You know because everyone here is not only an adult. They're well-to-do adults. They're adults that for the most part are educated. They're smart. They have financial opportunity. They're successful economically, and they have choices. You know these are not poor put upon people who are desperate for a better life and will make choices against their self-interest. These are actresses and models and successful people and business people. People who have successful businesses and have aspirations. And these are choices. You know I open adult knowing voluntary choices that these people are making. And for the government to just sort of say well, you know they're brainwashed you know they're effectively brainwashed. That's really what the Government's say is that all of these successful adults have essentially been brainwashed, and they're not acting in their own true self-interest. And I just don't think I don't think there's such thing as brainwashing. I think to the extent that you know we once thought there might be brainwashing it went out with the Cold War you know it's like a relic of the ‘70s. I mean it just doesn't exist.

MA: Man, you're going to have to prove that to me because I don't see it. What I do see is I see a lot of people who broke away from this group, who were once very attached to this group, who once leaders in this group, who were once teaching the stuff that they're now saying they were manipulated by. And now they're angry. I think part of what the evidence is going to show is some of these people who broke away from NXIVM wanted to start a version of it themselves. You know they hacked into the NXIVM computers. They tried to take the client data. They tried to take other information you know because they wanted to go off and do this alone. They didn't want you know Keith to to to be the head of it. They want it to be the head of it. And I think that's going to be a fascinating part of the trial.

MA: So, Keith, is I guess like the philosophical head. He's not really a business person. He doesn't have a business mind. He doesn't have business acumen. You know he's much more... this is going to sound sort of like pedantic, but he's much more of like a philosopher. You know he's a thinker. He's a big thinker. And so he gives intellectual, and I guess philosophical content to the program. But you know he doesn't handle the money. He doesn't really do the enrolling. So that's funny, I see this myself quite frankly. I’ll sit down with Keith, and I'll have a whole list of things I want to talk to him about. And they’re very practical things — things that I really need done. And Keith will be off on something. You know he wants to know why certain things are being done in the case? And in a sense, it's really he doesn't have an appreciation for the fact that his lawyers there to talk about these immediate practical sort of pedantic things. He's like well you know why do prosecutors do this? Is the system really better or worse because it does this instead of this? And I'm like Keith. You realize we're burning time talking about these theoretical things when I have something immediate and practical I want to discuss with you? And he doesn't care, you know? That's the level he is on. You know he's very sort of above the weeds.

MA: Right. Right.

JB: And I've spoken with her a lot over the past few months. And she's told me about her feeling of being deceived when she found out that this secret women's group that she she had joined cult dos. She found out she says it was actually run by Keith Raniere. And she also found out, she says, that that Keith Raniere’s initials were on her body. That she had gotten a brand. She was told it was going to be something else. And then sees... discovers his initials. I guess I want to ask you, first of all, are those Keith Raniere’s initials on Sarah's body?

JB: Was Keith aware? I mean is that intentional?

JB: In court filings, the FBI included alleged electronic communications between Keith Raniere and a DOS slave. And Keith describes himself as a grandmaster in a secret growing organization where women want to be branded with his monogram. What do you make of the FBI’s evidence that they've released so far about this electronic communication?

JB: One of the requirements of women to join DOS was to hand over a collateral — nude photos, videos, false confessions. How much of that collateral did Keith see, or how much of it went to Keith?

MA: I don't think it's extortion. And, first of all, I think it's important to know. I mean no collateral was ever released — ever. Not one time. You know women women left DOS. Women didn't keep the DOS secrets. And no collateral was ever released. And the government doesn't allege otherwise. And I don't think any member of DOS alleges otherwise. To your point of whether it's problematic. You know it's a little edgy. I mean I will, I will give you that, you know? And that's true. It's a little edgy, but I think it's there for a reason. The women of DOS wanted that to be part of the equation. And they saw meaning in that. And I think that they have the right to see meaning that, you know? And if it was a way of cementing the commitment I'm in DOS. I'm in DOS for life. It's a... DOS views this is a lifetime commitment. I am, I am your sisters for life. That is my commitment, and I'm backing it up with collateral that could be released if I stop being your sisters for life, or if I divulge the secrets of DOS. It's a little edgy, but you know that's, that's what they wanted.

MA: So DOS was created... so there are eight original women in DOS, who I'm not going to name on the air. DOS was created because one of those women was engaging in self-harm; cutting herself. And I think this person had a conversation with Keith where Keith said you have to make me a commitment that you're never going to do that again because I'm afraid you could cut yourself too deeply and something horrible will happen. And I think the response was I can't make that commitment to you because you're not sufficiently important to me that I'll make this commitment to you. And I think the idea was well, what is there out there that sufficiently important to you that you would make this commitment to that thing or that person? And I think DOS formed around that event. And I think through the years, it's been very attractive to women — young women — who I think have some measure of struggle. You know women who struggle, struggle with happiness, struggle with content in their life. You know they're I mean the women that I've met in DOS who've talked to me about DOS have been very serious people. They've been very strong people. And they've been people who I think are having some measure of struggle internally. And for whatever reason, DOS spoke to them.

MA: Absolutely 100 per cent false. I mean Keith has a unique sex life. He has had multiple partners his entire life. They know about each other, and they're ok with it. You know I think most of the time. Not all the time. Most of the time. But he makes no bones about it. You know this is who he is. And women choose to be intimate with Keith or not with that knowledge. And he doesn't need DOS to have sex with women. I think there was no shortage of women in the Clifton Park area who were willing to you know be intimate with Keith Raniere. So it's just false. I think it's it's just you know a weird sense of self-importance I think that some of these women are putting on DOS and say oh, I was in this because Keith wanted to have sex with me. You know listen I've seen text messages. I've seen e-mails. You know Keith doesn't need to create an organization for these women to want to be close to him. Trust me.

MA: No, not that I know of. Not that I've seen. I mean I think you know a lot of these women knew Keith and you know I think some of these women had relationships with Keith you know some — a very small percentage. If there are 150 women in DOS, we're talking about a handful — you know five or six. So you know the government's contending that this is a sex cult where all of the women were going to have sex with Keith. You know I mean we're probably somewhere around 2 per cent or 3 per cent of everybody in DOS who had any kind of intimate relationship with Keith.

MA: So I haven't heard about it from Keith, but what I've heard from some other people is that some of the women who were in DOS felt that they had issues with intimacy during sex. They didn't have issues with sex, but there was not the element of intimacy in the sex that they were having. I've heard this from two different people. And that they felt that they could be intimate with Keith. Now ironically, neither of these people had sex with Keith. No, because you can get intimacy from sex that you could get intimacy without having sex. And the issue for them was intimacy, not sex. To the extent that some of these women though said they had issues with intimacy. That is what Keith sort of does. You know Keith is about that. Keith is about human connection. You know Keith is about you know I mean I say jokingly, but it's only half a joke. You know this is more of a cuddle cult than it is a sex cult. You know Keith would go on long walks with these women. He'd hold hands with these women. He would lay down in a bed, and you know she would put her hand on Keith’s heart and he would put his hand on her heart. And that is the totality of the conduct. You know so how this got transformed into a sex cult. I'll never know.

MA: Yes, I'm saying they're lying. If they're saying that they were coerced to have sex with Keith, I'm saying that they’re lying.

MA: They they didn't have sex or not have sex with Keith because of the collateral. We have text messages. I mean I know I know you're talking about. We have text messages. It's preposterous. You know these women wanted to be with Keith. There's no talk in the text message about collateral. Qe have pages and pages and pages of text messages.

MA: They basically are two people in a very you know close, consensual, open relationship. I mean it's, it's the way a boyfriend and a girlfriend would talk if they had a good relationship and were dating for six months, you know? It's just like that.

MA: Yeah. Oh yeah.

MA: I don't anymore. I mean I think everything sort of like a little slower and a little sort of frozen. But the people that I've spoken to in DOS said no, I'm in DOS for my life. It’s a lifetime commitment that I take very seriously. And I think the reason the lifetime commitment is important is the idea that if you need to speak to one of your DOS sisters, they are there. They have not backed out. You can count on them forever. And in a time when I think people are worried about forever, you know things change... everything changes. We live in a society that changes rapidly. I think the forever concept really is important. That is money in the bank to you, and that goes a long way. And I think what the women are in DOS grieving is that the government has come in and is trying to... I mean a force no less powerful than the United States Department of Justice is coming in and trying to tear apart those friendships.

MA: A great... the government wants to give Keith Raniere life in prison — life in prison. They want life. That's what they think a fair resolution of this case would be. That he would get life in prison for this. And so for Keith, everything. I mean his very livelihood — his life — is at stake.

MA: I've never met her, so I'm not going to use labels. I think heroes you know there aren't that many heroes in the world that we can point to. I think it's great if she considers herself one. But I think at the end of the day, she was a very important member of this organization. She was a very important member of DOS. She was an enthusiastic member of DOS. Many, many people will say that. And her life went in a different direction, and I wish her well in her new life. I mean people you know. So the betrayal of that sort of like Sarah describes is described by people of Sarah. You know she was my friend. We were close. We shared these things. You know we did all these things together. We had these deep conversations together. How dare she say these things now? It's not true. And she's saying them to be hurtful. And she was my friend. You know so it kind of goes both ways for whatever that's worth.

(crosstalk)

MA: A hundred Per cent.

MA: Because from their perception, she's intentionally saying false things to hurt them. That they believe she knows is false.

MA: They have theories, yeah. But hey’re personal that has to do with her marriage that I'm not going to get into because it's not my place. Very private personal perceptions. I mean these are people who know her and know Nippy I mean and you know know them both. And you know the way that relationship's demise people have perceptions as to what happened. And people have perceptions about Sarah and her husband.

MA: If she testifies, yeah. And I expect she will.

MA: Sure, there's a defence fund. I've said this in court. It's an irrevocable trust, and the trust is paying. Can't see my quotation marks, “reasonable defense expenses.”

MA: There’s a trustee who's a lawyer in Manhattan. And I don't have visibility. Listen, I mean if you put a gun to my head and said who do I think has put a lot of the money into the trust? You know we all know the answer might be. But do I know? I have no visibility into that whatsoever.

JB: Mark, thank you so much.

MA: Sure. Thank you.

JB: All right.

MA: Alright. Bye-bye.

JB: Take care.

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DC: You have been listening to the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. Since that podcast was made, Keith Raniere was convicted of sex trafficking and racketeering and several high ranking NXIVM members have pleaded guilty to various charges. You can come back tomorrow for Episode 7. That'll be on part of the program. You can catch up on any of the episodes you've missed at cbc.ca/podcasts. And that is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Tom Power is talking to the new co-owner of Just For Laughs, comedian Howie Mandel. And remember, you can always take The Current with you on the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and start listening in just a few seconds. It is of course free from the App Store or Google Play. I'm David Common. Thanks very much for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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July 15, 2019 episode transcript

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