After deadly 2018 heatwave, Montreal scientists are working on science of keeping cool

Guests: Susan McKenzie, Georgia Chaseling, Daniel Gagnon

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KRISTY SNELL: I'm Kristy Snell with the Environment Canada forecast for Montreal. Mainly sunny today, the high 34 and again very, very humid. Humidex 39 and the UV index 8 or very high. Now there is a heat warning in effect for the city.

KS: That was Montreal's first official heat warning of the summer last week. The city is paying much closer attention to heat waves after 66 people died in a six-day heat wave last summer. Most of them seniors. And has extreme heat becomes a more common part of summer, it's something we all have to contend with. So our Montreal producer, Susan McKenzie, set out to learn about the latest research into how to best deal with crippling heat. And she joins us from our Montreal studio. Hi Susan.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Hi Katie. I learned a lot about research firsthand for you. It made me sweat. Also, I learned a lot about sweat.

KS: Tell me about it!

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Well I went to the EPIC Center which is part of the Montreal Heart Institute. It's a rehab and research centre where they do all sorts of studies into the effects of heat. Good and bad. And right now they're looking at the most effective strategies to cool off. And some of this work happens in what they call a "climate chamber".

KS: Describe what that's like. Is it kind of like a sauna?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Well it is a hot little room but it's much more clinical than a sauna. And the temperature and humidity are very carefully controlled. The physiologist there Georgia Chaseling greeted me.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: This is our climate chamber and at the moment it's set to 38 degrees and 60 percent relative humidity. And you can really feel the heat seeping outside of the chamber. Like, the laboratory right now feels really humid and hot as soon as you walk in, so it's just kind of like an example of how hot it's going to be inside the chamber.

KS: So 38 degrees and 60 percent humidity. How did that feel?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Hot!

KS: Really?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: It was about 32 degrees outside the day I visited the lab. But inside the climate chamber with those settings it felt more like 55. So like, I love heat. I really do. But this was really hot and sticky and I was only in there for an hour.

KS: What exactly are they studying in that climate chamber?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Well they're looking for what they call practical and economical strategies for cooling people off in extreme heat. In a sense they're looking for scientific data to back up anecdotes. And specifically, their focus is on one high risk group, people over 50 with heart conditions, because they're among the most vulnerable in heat waves. You know, last summer around two thirds of those 66 deaths in Montreal you mentioned were seniors with underlying health conditions. And we know this because Montreal, unlike many cities across Canada, actually tracks heat as a cause of death. And yet, most of the heat research that's been done has been done either with young people or healthy older people. And what I learned is heat really does kill. Our tissues and organs can only tolerate temperatures of up to about 40 degrees before we start to experience heat stroke and heat stress. And then our cells pretty much start to die. And so they're trying to find out how the body reacts over time to different types of heat waves and what can help because not everyone has air conditioning. And even if they did that's not necessarily the best solution. But I'll get to the solutions.

KS: So take us into this climate chamber.

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SUZAN MCKENZIE: OK. I'll give you a condensed version of my hour in there, starting at the beginning because first I had to get all rigged up.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: So I'll get you to take a seat for me, and Michelle's gonna help me set everything up. So it will involve a little bit of tape across the body.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: So that's Georgia Chaseling. She's in charge of the project and she took care of me. She's a postdoctoral fellow from Sydney, Australia. That's because this research is actually a joint Canada-Australia project funded by the Australian Government. And that day she had a student from Holland helping. Her name is Michelle Jacobs.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: Scratchy tape that scratches the surface, exfoliates the surface so it's nice and smooth. And we get an alcohol swab and make sure it's clean and then we'll put the electrodes on. So like I said...

SUZAN MCKENZIE: As you heard, the two of them started by putting a bunch of sensors on me, those round little ECG monitors so that they could monitor my heart rate, but also sensors on various parts of my body to monitor my skin temperature. Participants of the real trial undergo much more, including providing a urine sample and weighing themselves to monitor their sweat loss, which after a three hour stint in the chamber can be anywhere from 1 to 1.4 kilograms.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: Okay perfect. So now you're ready to go inside the chamber... So you can walk straight in and sit on the chair straight ahead.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: You can feel the heat the instant you walk in. Like it's just... it is like leaving an air conditioned home and walking out into a heat wave.

GEORGIA CHASELING: Absolutely.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: So it's not exactly a sauna at the spa. There's definitely no eucalyptus. There's a lot of scientific measurement happening.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: So Michelle's going to plug in your skin temperature sensors. I'm going to plug in your heart rate monitor... We simulate two heat waves. There's the typical North American heat wave which is 38 degrees, 60 percent humidity so it's very hot and it's very humid as well. And then the other heat wave that we simulate is our Australian heat wave which is hot and dry. So it's 46 degrees and 10 percent relative humidity. And these conditions actually replicate heat waves that have occurred in North America and Australia at one time point and that were really detrimental to the people living in that area at the time.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Why do older people feel the heat more?

GEORGIA CHASELING: So the question of feeling the heat and being physiologically affected by the heat are a little bit different concepts. So elderly people are more affected by the heat because once you reach about 60 years or over you have less of an ability to produce sweat. And because evaporation of our sweat is our main avenue to lose heat from the body and keep our core temperature regulated, if you have an inability to produce that sweat you run the risk of having greater increases in cold temperature, and therefore experiencing heat stroke or heat stress.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: The amount that I'm sweating right now wouldn't necessarily be what a 75-year-old would would sweat.

GEORGIA CHASELING: Right. So typically you would be able to produce the adequate amount of sweat to offset the heat compared to someone who is in their 70s 80s, definitely.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: I'd like to point out that neither of you are sweating.

GEORGIA CHASELING: I'm clammy. I am sweaty. It hits you after a while. You'll feel, like, the drips down the head and I'm... trust me I'm sweating! Yeah, I'm definitely sweating.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Are you sweating Michelle?

MICHELLE JACOBS: Definitely, yes.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: So at that point Michelle brought me some relief.

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MICHELLE JACOBS: I have a drink for you. It's water at about 18 degrees Celsius.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: How much is it? It's not very much.

GEORGIA CHASELING: No it's not. It's about sixty five mL's every 20 minutes on average.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: It feels really nice.

GEORGIA CHASELING: Yeah I bet! I think it's always a nice relief just to have that cold drink. Physiologically it's not going to do anything to your core or skin temperature. But it makes you feel cool and I think that's a really important thing during the heat wave. The cold water, when it enters your body, it activates receptors that send the signal to your brain saying, "Hey I've just felt something cool. This feels really good. Particularly because I'm feeling mostly hot things right now." And then your body will eventually warm that fluid up and it just goes along its natural course.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: I asked Georgia to explain a little bit more about what happens to our bodies in the heat.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: So as you sit here right now, you're in an environment that's 38 degrees Celsius, which is typically a higher temperature than the temperature of your skin. And because of that you're gaining heat from the environment. Simultaneously you're producing sweat. Because for every rise... 1 degree Celsius rise in core temperature your body will produce a certain amount of sweat. And that evaporation of the sweat is what's going to help your core temperature to be maintained at a safe level, pretty much. At the same time you're going to be vasodilating so blood will be sent to the skin surface. So you'll have an increase in your heart rate to try and compensate for that extra blood that's going to the skin surface to make sure that there's oxygen going to all of the other muscles and the organs as well. And naturally your core temperature will increase because you are storing a little bit of heat because of the hot environment. But as soon as you exit the chamber, your core temperature will go back down to what it was before.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: At the 30 minute mark I got a second drink of water. Then we moved on to the next phase of the study. A fan. It's a regular fan, like you'd get at a hardware store for your home, set to the highest setting, and they put it about a meter from my chest.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: So the fan cools the skin surface a little bit but it really helps to evaporate that sweat that's on your skin. So particularly in a hot humid environment when you add dripping sweat the fans are really, really beneficial because when it's so humid, and the sweat dripping on the floor, and it's not evaporating, it's not beneficial to help with heat loss. So the fan really helps with that evaporation of the sweat. So, again comparing the hot-humid with the hot-dry environments, a fan in a hot-dry environment for a senior is possibly not the most beneficial way to cool down because if it's really, really hot and you put a fan on someone who already can't sweat in a really dry environment then you're just blowing hot air onto them, and it's almost like being in a convection oven where you're just, you know, heating up faster and faster. That's in comparison to a hot-humid environment where the sweat secreted onto the skin surface doesn't evaporate as easily because there's so much water in the air already. So putting a fan on the skin surface is beneficial because it helps for that sweat that's on the skin to evaporate.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: [/sc].

I didn't know that. Fans are good at cooling us off in humid heat, but they make us hotter and dry heat.

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GEORGIA CHASELING: So your heart rate's gone up about 10 beats per minute so it said about 110 beats per minute now. Your heart rate has increased from when you first entered the chamber, which is what we would expect to see because your body is slowly increasing the cold temperature and your heart rate needs to work a little bit harder to make sure that we're getting oxygen and blood to all the appropriate places in the body.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Michelle has a big bucket of water there. What is that?

MICHELLE JACOBS: It's water of above 18 degrees Celsius, and I have a sponge so I will wet your skin. Like, everything that's not covered in clothes, so your legs, your arms, your face, your neck.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Oh that feels really nice. Feels fantastic, I will say!

GEORGIA CHASELING: So it's another mechanism that you can use. You're losing heat from the body via just wetting the skin. It just goes to show like something as simple as wetting the skin can be really powerful, particularly in such a really hot and humid environment. In this trial, when patients get the skin wetting, they feel more comfortable than with just the fan or obviously with no intervention at all.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: That water felt great. So my grandmother, it turns out, was right. She used to tell my dad to run his wrists under cold water to help cool off. Turns out a cold washcloth on your neck or forehead is good too. And so is just sitting with your feet in a bucket of cool water up to your knees roughly.

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SUZAN MCKENZIE: What's interesting is, sitting here with the fan on me for 10-15 minutes, how the sweat has gone. I don't have the sweat moustache, I don't have the sweat trickling down my back. It's... I'm warm, but I don't feel that uncomfortable sweaty that I felt before.

GEORGIA CHASELING: Yeah that's exactly good. Like, the reason that you're not feeling the sweat dripping down your body anymore is because the fan is actually evaporating that excess sweat. And this is why the fans are beneficial. Typically what you do see is when you use a cooling intervention you will notice a decrease in the heart rate because there's less strain on the body. So this marks 61 minutes inside the climate chamber. So what we're going to do now is we're going to stop the recording. We're going to take everything off you, and then we'll move outside and we'll cool you down.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: So after 61 minutes I was done. The trials each usually last 3 hours. I was only in there an hour, but I did feel a little like a wet rag afterwards so I can only imagine what three hours in that would do. Never mind the days in the heat wave it was simulating.

KS: Wow! It must have felt really good to get out of there, sweat moustaches and all.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Absolutely.

KS: So drinking water, water on the skin and a fan in humid heat. That's all pretty low tech, but how do those things compare with air conditioning?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Well look, of course air conditioning is kind of a miracle the way it keeps us cool but it's a complicated miracle. After we left the climate chamber I spoke to Daniel Gagnon. He's an Assistant Professor in the Department of Pharmacology and Physiology at the Universite de Montreal. And he's also working on this project, and he knows air conditioning has issues.

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DANIEL GAGNON: The problem with massive air conditioning use is that it can place a lot of strain on the electrical grid. So I think there were some heat waves, for example, in Australia where there were brownouts or blackouts and then nobody has air conditioning anymore. So in that case you need alternative interventions. Some people don't have access to air conditioning. Some people have it but they don't use it due to fears of high costs. Also if the energy that's used to power the air conditioning is not from renewable sources then it kind of contributes to some of the climate changes that are leading to more and more intense heat waves. And the last thing is also on a on a big scale. So like city scales. Air conditioners, they basically take out the hard air and push it outside. And when you do that with big buildings or a lot of buildings they can actually heat up the air outside so it can make the heat wave worse.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: And that's why we need other ways to keep us cool besides blasting the AC based on science. Ways that are easy and affordable for everyone and don't make the heat problem worse. Even yesterday, Katie, here in Montreal a storm knocked out power where I live so I had no AC. My apartment was a steam bath. And it's a lot worse in some places. You know, I'm seeing and I'm sure you've been seeing what's happening in New Orleans this week. There's flooding. It's crazy hot, breaking records, and now there's a tropical storm heading their way which, if it hits, could knock out power. And then the air conditioning is not going to help anyone.

KS: So if not air conditioning, what does Daniel say we should be thinking about?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: Well he pointed out that we're seeing more intense heat waves and they're lasting longer. And climate change is playing a role in that, but that's a bigger conversation. For now though, at the practical level, to deal with heat waves Daniel Gagnon said the government needs to make sure people understand the dangers of extreme heat waves and that they take the heat warning seriously, especially older people.

KS: Are there signs that people are starting to take heat waves more seriously?

SUZAN MCKENZIE: I think so. I saw images from France during that last European heat wave from a senior's home and it was a group of older women sitting in a circle, their feet in buckets of cold water. Across Canada pools are staying open later, there are cooling stations that give out free water. Here in Montreal the city was on high alert as soon as the heat wave was declared last week, ready to implement its new heat wave strategy. Doing things like mapping where vulnerable people are and checking in on them, trying to avoid that deaths we saw last year. And Toronto even has a new approach this summer too. They're calling it a "heat relief network." So instead of 7 cooling stations only open during heat alerts they now have 270 cool spaces open all summer. So we're getting there.

KS: Susan thank you so much. And I think all of us will start to brace for whenever that next heat wave does arrive.

SUZAN MCKENZIE: I think so. I'm going to go get a popsicle!

KS: All right! Susan Mackenzie is our producer in Montreal where the high today is expected to be a cool 27 degrees.

[Music: Summer In The City by The Lovin Spoonful]

KS: No doubt, you already know that was Summer In The City by The Lovin Spoonful from 1966 when the mini skirt first came into fashion, Star Trek was about to be beamed into your TV set, Lester B Pearson was the Prime Minister, and the USSR's Luna 10 was the first spacecraft to orbit the moon and gas at the time was 32 cents a gallon. A gallon! The CBC News is next. Then if you are freaked out hearing the news about that Air Canada plane hitting turbulence out of nowhere, we'll tell you that experience is becoming a more common part of air travel. We'll tell you why in the next half hour. I'm Katie Simpson and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

Climate change is making flights more turbulent

Guests: Paul Williams

KS: Hello I'm Katie Simpson and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

KS: Still to come, Escaping NXIVM. One of the group's top recruiters turns against the organization and its charismatic leader Keith Raniere.

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VOICE 1: I don't want to talk to Keith. I don't trust that Keith has my best intentions anymore.

KS: We continue our spotlight on the best CBC podcasts in a few minutes. But first, turbulence turmoil.

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FLIGHT PASSENGER 1: We just woke up to some turbulence and then the next second the whole plane dropped and people hit the ceiling. And the seatbelt signs weren't on. We had no indication that anything was going to happen. There wasn't even a rumble in the plane and then just... Whoop, drop. Yeah it just dropped.

FLIGHT PASSENGER 2: It was totally unexpected. We had injuries and they flew for about another hour while medical physicians who are onboard, ICU nurses, et cetera, assessed everyone and said, "Do we turn around or not?" There's broken bones and some individuals had facial lacerations so they had sterile strips and treated those other individuals. Time will tell how severe the head and neck injuries [are]. When they flew up and hit, the lady in front of me flew right out of her seat. She said she had her seatbelt on. So it's possible that in the turbulence that released and she flew up and hit her head. I tried to grab her and hold her down, so those types of injuries it's probably 24 to 48 hours before they know how severe some of them might be.

KS: Passengers onboard Air Canada Flight AC 33 from Vancouver to Sydney, Australia are recovering after a violent jolt in the sky. The flight was diverted to Hawaii after hitting what the crew described as "clear air turbulence." The turbulence was enough to injure 37 passenger and crew members and it's a nightmare scenario for any traveller according to my next guest, and it's becoming more common thanks, in part, to climate change. Paul Williams is a Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Department of Meteorology at the University of Reading in the United Kingdom, and that is where we've reached him. Hello.

PAUL WILLIAMS: Good morning Katie.

KS: Dr. Williams from what you know so far, what does it appear happened on this plane?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Well, as you've said, the airline is saying that this is clear air turbulence. And if that's true then it would have been completely invisible, not only to the pilots through the cockpit window but even to the radar in the cockpits as well. That's consistent with the passenger reports that I've read which is that the pilot came on the radio after the turbulence encountering and basically said that in the cockpit, they had they had no warning that this event was about to happen. Pretty scary, especially if you're a nervous flyer. And fear of flying is actually quite a common phobia.

KS: This is probably not going to be comforting for anyone who has a fear of flying when we hear these kinds of stories and how there is just no warning. But from what you understand, what would it have felt like if you're a passenger sitting on this plane and all of a sudden the plane encounters this clear air turbulence.

PAUL WILLIAMS: Well we have a scale for measuring how strong the turbulence is, a little bit like the Richter scale that we use for earthquakes. It goes from light, to moderate, to severe, to extreme. And judging from the passenger reports this was definitely at least severe turbulence. And the definition of severe turbulence is that it's stronger than gravity. So the plane will be moving down dropping tens of feet, maybe more, and those drops will be happening more quickly than gravity can pin you to your seat. Therefore, it follows logically that if you're not seat-belted you become a catapult, and you'll rise up and you potentially strike your head against the cabin ceiling. And that seems to be what's happened here.

KS: I feel like any conversation around this issue is going to be an advertisement for everyone to remember to keep their seat belt on at all times on a plane. Much of our audience is probably very familiar with normal turbulence. And you know, you notice it if you're flying through a cloud, that kind of thing. But what exactly is "clear air turbulence"?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Yes it's slightly mysterious isn't it. And especially because we can't see it. And I think we instinctively fear things we can't see. So as you say, flying through a cloud, well at least you can see it, you know it's there, you know you're going to expect some turbulence in the next few minutes. But this clear air turbulence is generated by instabilities. Normally in the jet stream these very rapidly moving air currents [are] up there at 35000 feet. Basically if the jet stream becomes too sheared, and then that's a meteorological term, basically "wind shear" is that the process by which the wind speed increases with altitude. If that effect is too strong then the atmosphere just can't contain the stresses and the strains and it becomes unstable and it breaks down. And that's basically what causes this invisible clearer turbulence.

KS: So you know you keep describing this it is something that's invisible and hard to detect. Is there research under way to try and find better ways to detect this? Or why is it so difficult it to to see this coming?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean a key source of information that pilots have is from forecasts of the turbulence, which are very much like weather forecasts but they're specialized forecasts for the aviation sector, and this is what I work on for my research. They're pretty good and they're getting more accurate every day, but they're not perfect. They're only about 75 percent accurate. I think a key lesson from this Air Canada encounter yesterday is that we really need to redouble our efforts to improving those forecasts. But also there's technology that could help. I mentioned that clear air turbulence is invisible to the radar. Well there's another kind of technology that's a bit similar to radar but called "lidar." It actually uses light instead of radio waves and that's just the right frequency of electromagnetic wave to detect the invisible turbulence. In fact, this technology exists today. The reason it's not used is it's simply too expensive and it's too heavy. But if we see the cost come down and if it becomes miniaturized then maybe we'll see this glider technology installed in planes, and that really could confine clear air turbulence encounters to the history bins. That would be a really transformative and game changing event if it happened.

KS: And you say that the big challenge there though is it's just too heavy for the planes and it's just way too expensive, right?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Currently the business case has been analyzed and basically it costs too much. It would cost an airline more to install to retrofit this technology in its fleet of planes than they would save from the avoided injuries.

KS: Wow... Is there anything or anything that could have been done to prevent injuries in this case? We know there were 37 people that were hurt because of this jolt.

PAUL WILLIAMS: It's difficult to say what could have been done. I've checked the turbulence forecast for that particular latitude and longitude and time where the event happened. There was no indication in the forecast that there would be clear air turbulence there. Normally the previous pilot who flew through that airspace would be a source of information but turbulence can be very transient. You know, it can pop up and in a few minutes it's gone. So it really is a challenging scientific problem.

KS: How significant can clear air turbulence be? In this case we saw people were thrown about the cabin, they were injured, but is this something that can severely damage a plane? Or even in the worst, most horrific case scenario, could it get it take a plane down?

PAUL WILLIAMS: It has taken a plane down but that hasn't happened for a very long time... decades. I'm always conscious that people listening may be heading to the airport right now and may be getting a bit worried. And I really should say something reassuring which is that turbulence is very rare. Something like less than 1 percent of the atmosphere at 35000 feet contains moderate turbulence so the chance of you hitting that pocket of turbulence is very rare. And that's exactly why, when it does happen, of course it makes the news and it's the top item in the news, because we're all fascinated by it. But the rarity is something that I'm very keen to stress.

KS: And while you say that there is a less than 1 percent chance at certain altitudes, your research so far has found a strong link between climate change and increased turbulence. Can you explain the link?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Yes, it's a good point. Normally when someone mentions climate change, we think about how it's getting warmer here at ground level. And I know you've been talking about heat waves a few minutes ago before the news. But the climate is changing at 35000 feet as well and it's changing because of our CO2 emissions. It's modifying the jet stream and just increasing those instabilities in the jet stream. As a consequence, we've published several scientific studies now which are predicting a major increase in severe, invisible clear air turbulence, you know, by several hundred percent in the next few decades. We really need to start to take this seriously. What can we do? We can we can stop changing the climate, that might be a good idea. We could improve those clear air turbulence forecasts or maybe we could invest in this lidar technology. Those are the three things I think we could and should be doing to prevent events like the one we saw yesterday becoming two to three times more common in just a few decades time.

KS: There are bigger conversations around what's going on with climate change, but this is just another one of those spin off unintended consequences that we're seeing that you know people will notice if they do fly as part of their regular routine. How much could this change, or how much more often could this be happening over the next few decades if there isn't a change?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Well according to our predictions we might see a doubling or tripling of the amount of turbulence in the atmosphere. It's not just turbulence I'm concerned about, actually. There's a whole host of ways in which climate change could affect aviation. It could modify the flight routes and the journey times by changing the headwinds and the tailwinds. Coastal airports might be flooded more by sea level rise and storm surges. We might see an increase in the number of lightning strikes for planes to be struck by. And a final consequence, especially in heat waves, is that planes find it harder to takeoff as the air gets warmer. So we might see planes essentially unable to take off because the air is so hot, unless they remove passengers, or luggage, or cargo from the plane. So a whole host of potential impacts there that climate change could be having, and in some cases already is having on the aviation sector.

KS: One of the strange parts of this conversation is, you know, climate scientists point to air travel as a significant cause of CO2 emissions in the atmosphere.

PAUL WILLIAMS: Right.

KS: When you take a look at that and juxtapose it to... there's a greater fear of increasing turbulence. But part of the problem could be flying itself. How does that conversation happen? What do people need to think about around the concern that, here is a problem that is causing more challenges around climate change. But at the same time there are greater challenges to safety in the air.

PAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah that's a great point. You know, people have called it poetic justice that airplanes have put out all of this CO2 and now the atmosphere is fed up and getting its revenge, maybe would be one way to see it. Yes. Aviation, of course, contributes to climate change. A few percent of our global CO2 emissions come from aviation. That's currently a lot smaller than many other sectors. But of course the other sectors are decarbonising increasingly rapidly. Aviation is somewhat struggling to do that. Although I think we will see electric planes increasingly coming into use, even in just a decade or so for short haul flights. So there are movements there to decarbonise the aviation sector, and of course we're all committed to that change as well.

KS: Dr. Williams, thank you for your time today.

PAUL WILLIAMS: My pleasure. Thank you.

KS: Paul Williams is a Professor of Atmospheric Science in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Reading. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Katie Simpson.

Uncover: Escaping NXIVM – Episode 5

KS: All summer we are highlighting the best CBC podcasts and today episode 5 of Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. Journalist Josh Block reveals how his childhood friend, Sarah Edmondson, was drawn into the organization. At first it seemed to be all about personal growth, but then things got dark. NXIVM leader has since been convicted of racketeering and sex trafficking. In this episode Sarah decides to flee the group and warn others. This is Escaping NXIVM.

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[Music]

SARAH: The vows? Do you want me to read them? Let me get my computer. OK. [Of] all the things I get in trouble for, it's reading Keith's vows on national radio. OK. [typing] Keith's vows...? Is that what they were called?

NIPPY: I don't remember.

SARAH: "Keith vows Doc." Ooh that looks at them. This is the vow: "To me you are my love in human form. You are all poetry, beauty, awe and joy..."

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SARAH: You are my love in human form. You are all poetry, most of the time. [crowd laughter] Awe, enjoy. In my every experience there you are. You hold my senses and self... In practical life I will always...

SARAH: In practical life or always hold out my best for you, against any and all adversity.

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SARAH: I will fill each moment with this promise, remembering someday, one these moments will be our last...

SARAH: One of these moments will be last. This made me cry at our wedding.

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NIPPY: And only my very best can truly honour our time together. I love you with all that I know to be me [cell rings] and this love will serve as my guide for the rest of time.

JOSH BLOCK: When Sarah and Nippy were married in 2013 at the Shangri-La Hotel in Vancouver, Keith Ranieri wrote their vows.

NIPPY: I vowed to the end of human possibility to never forget forsake this love.

JB: He wasn't there in person but 60 of his followers were, including Nancy Salzman and her daughter Lauren. Lauren officiated the wedding.

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LAUREN: I choose you Sarah to be my wife.

NIPPY: I choose you Sarah to be my wife.

LAUREN: To love together and laugh together.

NIPPY: [laughs] To love together and laugh together...

JB: In working on the story. I've come to appreciate just how much Sarah's entire life was shaped by this group. Most of her friends were in NXIVM. It occupied almost all her waking hours. It was the lens through which she filtered everything, even her wedding.

SARAH: It was definitely a very NXIVM centred wedding. My poor family having to sit through the shenanigans.

[Sound: Singing]

Allison Mack sang at my wedding saying you two...

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SARAH: From this day onward I choose unity.

NIPPY: I choose unity.

SARAH: Lauren was there as the officiant and she wrote a really beautiful speech that had, you know... Nippy cried. I mean I cry all the time, but to see him cry. It was with a single tear. I saw one single tear that was... it was a beautiful ceremony.

JB: It was meaningful for them to have Lauren officiate. She was one of Sarah's closest friends, and later named godmother to Nippy and Sarah's son. This was years before Lauren would become Master, and Sarah her slave.

[Sound: crowd cheering]

SARAH: Oh my God. The best was when the dancing started. Like after the ceremony and after dinner the dancing started and there was this great DJ on the dance floor and we had... It was September so three weeks earlier we'd all been at V Week and we had done this dance in dance class that was sort of like a flash mob style. Like it's just really upbeat and positive and... [Music]

JB: Sarah shows me this video from her wedding of the flash mob. She was surrounded by her NXIVM sisters.

SARAH: You know, like, fists in the air...

JB: Their arms outstretched, eyes to the heavens, huge smiles and self-possessed.

SARAH: We were just so happy, you know? And it was so fun to like bust out into the song and everyone was watching and, you know. We did we did flash mob at my wedding. That was a moment.

JB: The wedding. These dancers. The vows. The way NXIVM was so deeply integrated into Sarah's life. It reminds me of a term my friend Jamie told me about...

SOUNDCLIP

JAMIE LEVIN: Ontological security.

JB: Wait, say it again?

JL: Ontological security.

JB: What does that mean?

JL: Oh jeez. You want me to define it now? [laughs] It's a cognitive need that humans have to feel secure in their identity and stable in their identity. They need to know who they are and what they are.

JB: Ontological security. It's a profound feeling of stability and meaning that comes from believing the world is predictable and ordered, and you know your place in it. That's what NXIVM offered Sarah. It was the very fabric of her identity.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: What's the opposite of ontological security?

Ontological insecurity, which is a feeling of great chaos and uncertainty. It's where you don't know what your identity is. It's when you don't know what meaning is meaning is lost. And that gives you a feeling of great insecurity.

JB: Ontological insecurity. It's the nauseating and disorienting feeling of having your foundation torn out from under you. I'm trying to imagine how that would feel. Maybe like discovering that gravity is a hoax. That's the feeling consuming Sarah as she's about to leave everything she's known for over a decade. I'm Josh Block. This is Escaping NXIVM from CBC Podcasts' Uncover. Chapter 5 - Blow it Up.

JB: It's May 31st 2017. Sarah is on a train with her son heading to see her grandfather in Toronto. He has cancer so she has an excuse not to be at the annual NXIVM summit taking place in Albany.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I was in survival mode. I was like I just have to get out. I just have to figure out how to get out of the confines of DOS.

JB: At that moment you know they have this they have collateral on you.

SARAH: Yes.

JB: Those nude photos of Sarah and videos making damaging claims about Nippy and her parents.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: And I didn't know what they were going to do with it. They were going to post my photo online any minute. You know like, I didn't know what they were going to do.

JB: Sarah is operating on very limited information. NXIVM is secretive. DOS, even more so.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I thought they would like send someone to Toronto to try to follow me. I was really tense.

JB: By the time Sarah is on this train to Toronto, this is what she suspects is going on. One: the secret women's empowerment group she joined is actually run by Keith Raniere. Two: Keith is Lauren Salzman's Master. Three: Keith's initials are seared onto her body. Four: Lauren lied to her about all these things. But the most pressing worry for Sarah during this train ride is that she knows another branding session is scheduled within a week.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I spent the whole time on the phone travelling alone of the three year old. Luckily I had headphones for our son to listen to the iPod and he slept. He couldn't hear me because I was on the phone.

[/sc].

JB: What he can't hear is Sarah warning women about DOS.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: Making sure that there are people not getting on the plane to come to the summit because I knew they were going to be branded. So we spent that whole time on the phone making sure people knew, trying to figure out who is and who is out.

JB: Sarah and nippy have told me that they want to leave NXIVM quietly. What they mean is that they don't want to give the group a reason to come after them like they did with other high profile defectors. So Sarah is extremely cautious about who she contacts and what she says.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: The thing that I was most afraid of is that I wanted to let people know but I didn't want it to come from me, so I was afraid that I was going to get sued for slander, whatever.

JB: They need a cover story. Here's how it goes down. Once Sarah and their son are in Toronto, Nippy heads to the NXIVM conference in Albany.

[Sound: microphone rustling, Despacito Remix by Luis Fonsi, Daddy Yankee and Justin Bieber]

JB: The event is held at a dingy former Italian restaurant in Clifton Park. The place is buzzing with about 100 NXIVM members from Canada, Mexico and the United States.

SOUNDCLIP

NIPPY: I go up to the summit and I'm in there and the atmosphere and I just want to flip... I just want to flip the breakfast table. I want to grab the mic and just let everyone know.

JB: Nippy finds Lauren Salzman and Jim Del Negro in the parking lot near the porta-potties. Jim is one of Keith's closest advisers and runs a men's group, Society of Protectors, with Nippy. Nippy tapes the exchange using a cell phone tucked into his pocket.

[Sound: microphone rustling and inaudible chatter].

JB: The beginning is a bit hard to make out. Nippy saying, "Sarah tells me she got f**king branded. She got branded." And Jim responds by asking, "But what did she say about it?".

SOUNDCLIP

NIPPY: Are you listening to me? Dude. This is criminals sh**. This is stuff I don't want to have anything to do with.

JIM DEL NEGRO: Sarah's involved in it?

NIPPY: Yeah, Sarah's involved in it. But don't try and wrap your head around how this is OK. I'm not going to do that. I'm telling you right now I want nothing more to do with these organizations. I'm out. I'm out. Look, you think you're doing something good and helping people? The definition of personal growth isn't getting your friend and a sex ring! Oh OK. Sure. Right. Initials on his crotch...

JB: Nippy make certain he's in plain sight. He wants everyone to hear him say DOS is a sex ring and engaged in illegal activity.

SOUNDCLIP

NIPPY: What do you mean yet? How are you sitting here and saying that's OK? Tell me what you need from me. I don't care about doing anything to slander anyone. I want out. I'll give it to you.

LAUREN: I'd like to have a conversation...

NIPPY: Honestly, I don't want to have a conversation. I just want to leave.

JB: Nippy calls it a strategic temper tantrum. The anger is very real but the timing of his outburst is calculated.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN: What if you're wrong? What if you're wrong?

NIPPY: I don't want anything. I don't-- what if you're wrong?

LAUREN: But I'm open to talking about it.

NIPPY: It doesn't seem like it. I've spoken to you about this. This is. This is. This is it. I'm done. I'm out. I'm sorry. [Sound: microphone rustling] [yelling] I'm sorry that your branding my f**king wife!

LAUREN: So I've known about the tantrum. In fact, that was our plan. That Nippy should have a reaction.

JB: Sarah and Nippy's plan is a kind of NXIVM flip of their own. They're going to turn the NXIVM philosophy against itself and use it to help them leave.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN: And that was going to be my out, that I'm going to choose him over ESP, which would be consistent with my quote "issues" of dependency.

JB: And what why is that the strategy you guys have chosen?

LAUREN: We've heard from other people who left that sort of the best way to leave a cult is to leave for the things that they've decided as your issue, so it's consistent with your personality.

[Sound: Lauren comforts her son as they enter a taxi cab]

JB: Now it's Sarah's turn to sell the story.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: What's happening there?

LAUREN: We were in a cab, I think. I think it was the beginning the phone call, right?

JB: She records herself calling Lauren Salzman from Toronto. It's just after Nippy's tantrum. I get her to play it back for me. She was. When I first heard this recording I just thought it was a panicked call Sarah made as she was leaving. And it is. But now I realize there's more to it.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN: I can't hear you.

SARAH: I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Lauren, like, my husband wants a divorce. My husband wants divorce. I have been in fight or flight since January. I haven't been to sleep.

JB: Nippy doesn't really want a divorce. Sara is selling their story. She's also trying to get as much information out of Lauren as she can. It's a kind of chess game. This is Sarah's best friend, and her Master. But she doesn't trust her.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN: I just got here and maybe screamed at me about your brands.

JB: This is Lauren. She's talking about when nippy screamed at her in the parking lot.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: Yeah. He hasn't seen it but he just demanded I tell him, and if I didn't tell him if I had won he'd divorce me.

LAUREN: Yeah.

SARAH: What is going on?

JB: Your voice sounds in the beginning of this... you sound tense.

SARAH: I was very tense. I was incredibly tense. You know, I couldn't say to her, "So I discovered that Keith is having sex with everybody and using DOS as a way to bring in fresh meat. And I am no longer wanting to participate. So all the best.

JB: Sarah is pressing hard for the answers she couldn't get when she first joined DOS.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I mean this is Keith behind DOS? Is he the one who organized this?

LAUREN: It's not something that we discuss Sarah. And it's not...

SARAH: It's not something we discuss was her answer to me. She knows very well that Keith, Keith was her Master. Keith is her Master.

JB: She doesn't say no.

SARAH: No.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: But Keith gave his go ahead on it. Like he said "Yeah use my jewels for this woman's cup"?

LAUREN: He gave them permission to use collateral and pendants.

SARAH: OK. But he didn't know about the branding?

LAUREN: He knew about it but he didn't cause it. And he didn't create the brand. The girls did.

JB: This is the version of events that NXIVM continues to stand by. That DOS was created by women in NXIVM, not Keith.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN: I don't believe it's bad for women to do things to build honour and character. And I don't, you know...

[Sound: Sarah and Lauren speak over each other]

SARAH: Cause Nippy told me that I have Keith's initials on my body. That I've been branded like a... like a cow or something.

SARAH'S SON: [interrupting] Mom, I love you.

SARAH: I know I love you too.

SARAH: I think my son was starting to pick up on my level of anxiety that was pretty extreme at this point.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: Who's got... Who's got my photo? For real?

LAUREN: I promise you I am the only one who has them.

SARAH: Can you please delete those?

LAUREN: Yeah.

SARAH: And my confessions, and my family?

LAUREN: I'll get rid of everything.

SARAH: I just thought that Keith's seen pictures of me, you know? Or that Keith, you know... Not what I signed up for, Lauren. I'm sorry I don't want to do this anymore.

JB: There's a lot going on for Sarah during this phone call. At times this sounds like a warm conversation between old friends. Despite everything it's a friendship Sarah doesn't want to lose.

SARAH: That's the thing, we wanted to do something good in the world. We wanted to bond together for goodness, to uphold something. It wasn't supposed to be a horrible experience. It was supposed to be a boot camp to be... to build character and then take that and do awesome sh**. I want to have a normal friendship with you. I just I need to step back from this and just go back to our life, me and you.

LAUREN: Everything we said on the call is OK. It's fine.

SARAH: OK OK OK. Let's talk later. I love you very much.

LAUREN: I love you too, talk to you very soon.

SARAH: Big hug.

LAUREN: OK bye.

SARAH: Goodbye.

SARAH: Ended up learning from that phone call that Keith absolutely knew about DOS and that my cover was safe for the time being.

JB: Sarah describes this period of time in Toronto as a total blur. She's barely eating or sleeping. She doesn't know who to trust. She's trying to figure out who else is in DOS without blowing her cover. Lauren thinks Sarah is going to lay low and just take care of her grandfather. But Sarah says the more she finds out the harder it is to be discreet.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN KOBELT: I didn't get branded. I didn't even know that DOS existed. I found out because things were getting really weird really fast.

JB: Jen Kobelt is one of Sarah's NXIVM friends in Vancouver. She was also Sarah's personal assistant. Remember, she was the one who joined NXIVM after going to a pitch session that Sarah led. I meet Jen in Vancouver. She's the kind of person that looks you directly in the eyes when she speaks. She can be naive and insightful in the same breath.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN: It was May 31st. We saw Sarah's husband, his name popping up on a whole bunch of group chat threads that we were on, and it just kept saying, you know, "He left the group. He left the group. He left the group."

JB: This is a huge deal. Sarah and nippy are like the Beyonce and Jay-Z of NXIVM in Vancouver. Word is spreading fast.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN: And we were like what's going on?

JB: Jen reaches out to Sarah. Sarah's in Toronto at Whole Foods.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN: Then she just started grilling me. And I remember her asking me like, "Jenny have you ever been invited to join a group?" I was like, "What do you mean?" In this case I was just completely unaware of it and she just... She just burst into tears and she was crying so hard. And then she started, kind of sounded like she was just like yelling to the world, "That motherf***er! That motherf***er!"

JB: Jen and Sarah start running through the names of NXIVM members in Vancouver trying to guess who might be in DOS and warning them. Sarah tells the three women who were her slaves to leave the group. But otherwise, she tries to stay behind the scenes so this disruption can be linked back to her. A blog called The Frank Report, run by a former employee of NXIVM, publishes an article about DOS women being branded with Keith's initials. More women leave DOS.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN: Like from that moment on it was just like everything shattered. And that was when the phone calls started from my friends.

JB: Jen says they told her they were in DOS, that they've handed over collateral, and described just how explicit it is.

SOUNDCLIP

JEN: They told me I had to put my face and my inner labia in a shot. A nude photo. That I had to, like, spread my legs in a very particular way and make sure that my face was in the shot too. I couldn't believe it. It was just... Insanity. I couldn't sit still. Just walk around our neighbourhood. We had pizza like every night for a while. It was just like the only thing that comforting. Sarah sent us a list of things to read and things to watch to help us understand what we were coming out of.

JB: It is all becoming clear. DOS is bigger than Sara had imagined. It has infiltrated the community she built in Vancouver and the recruiting was still going on.

How did it feel to know that people especially young women that you had recruited into your organization may very well end up being branded in the same way that you were?

SARAH: I was livid. I can swear right?

JB: Yes.

SARAH: OK sorry. [laughs]

JB: We've crossed that bridge, That horse is out of the barn there [laughs]. But to what extent did you also feel guilty because you're the one that brought them in?

SARAH: I felt responsible but I didn't feel guilty. I mean I felt badly. I felt... I knew that I hadn't done the bad thing to them. You know what I mean? I knew that I'd set them up to have the bad thing happen and that's the part that I felt responsible for. To say hey trust me, join this community, trust that this is a place we're all going to grow, and love each other, and support each other and it's all good. That part, I constantly feel guilty about.

JB: Within a week, word gets back to the higher ups in Albany that Sarah is warning others about DOS.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I know that I did that when I left Toronto...The time that I went to Toronto and the time I landed back in Vancouver, I'm pretty sure they had figured out that the law...

JB: Now everyone knows Sarah isn't leaving NXIVM because Nippy is threatening divorce. Sarah is leaving because she wants to, and she's taking others with her.

JB: How much of your life changed that day?

SARAH: [Sarah takes a deep breath] I don't even want to say it but I feel like I lost a big part of myself because I, myself, was so wrapped up in that community. And that was just, like, severed in such a violent way. And, like, if I was upset about something I would go to... Lauren is who I'd go to. That's who I'd reach out to first. [sniffles] Sorry. I feel so sad about Lauren. She's a good person. You know, 12 years of friendship with someone. I'm just still so hurt I guess, that... you know. She can't in just pick up a phone and go, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry I lied to you about that." I was so angry that she was flipping this around and making me bad. She was... you know... the main thing that really bother me is she told everybody that was completely consensual and I knew exactly what I was getting into...

JB: It's been just over a week since Nippy at his tantrum at the NXIVM summit. Sarah is back in Vancouver. The branding ceremony at the summit was cancelled and it's starting to sink in what leaving NXIVM will actually mean. She spends most of the day on the phone with her former students trying to explain DOS and why she left. She doesn't have to hide her efforts anymore. She tells me it was not uncommon for one call to last six hours. She hears Lauren is also calling people in Vancouver, telling a different story about DOS and Sarah. Jen Kobelt describes it like two Jedi Knights trying to use their powers of persuasion over people. It's like a line has been drawn on the dance floor at Sarah's wedding. There are now those who side with Sarah and leave NXIVM, and those that turn against her and shut her out. Sarah also hears that NXIVM is building a legal case against her. She doesn't want to end up in Clare Bronfman's bad books and she's desperate to speak with anyone in charge to plead her case.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: Oh man, it's been so crazy. Honestly like no one will talk to me. I'm so glad you're willing.

JB: This is the last phone call Sarah has with a higher up and NXIVM. It's with Jim Del Negro, the man who used to run SOP with Nippy. She recorded it. We listened to it together.

SOUNDCLIP

JDN: Like I come from the perspective of SOP that when you make a promise to do something, you do it. So the only... one of the things that I have heard is that you have broken a promise to, you know, to work things out within a group. Things like that. So I don't know.

SARAH: You know Jim was in charge of a lot of the legal stuff and I thought if I could get him on my side, or at least know that there was more to whatever he was being fed, that at least they wouldn't come after me because a wrong had been done.

JB: In NXIVM, if you've been wronged you have the right to speak out about it. Sarah is hoping Jim will hear her out maybe even understand and defend her to the higher ups.

SOUNDCLIP

JDN: So, you know, I don't know if... I don't know if I can trust you. You know. So, but I know whatever you did you could you know I'm sure you made mistakes or whatever. I don't know you know anybody that's in it. People don't come to me when they talk about rumours because they know I don't like to hear them.

SARAH: Well I don't have rumours. I have firsthand information about the group, because I was in it. And I was in it under, I believe, false pretences. And I believe that I gave collateral that once I gave it, bound me to something that I didn't want to be a part of anymore and it was fear, coercion, and obligation and blackmail to keep me in it. No one is talking to each other. People are taping each other. There is a war going on. And really, Jim, it is not coming from me. I don't want to be a part of it. I don't like that I use initials next to my vagina. I don't want to be a part of this anymore. I stepped down. I asked for my collateral back and I was told no because I made a promise. That's actually blackmail. That is where the illegal activity starts. Not with me. I've tried to step away quietly but now I am being blamed for everyone else following my lead. I'm just trying to live my life! I'm f**king devastated! This is not what I signed up for.

JDN: Did you ever think of talking to Keith about it?

SARAH: I don't want to talk to Keith. I don't trust that Keith has my best intentions anymore.

SARAH: That's basically saying I don't believe in God.

JB: That's basically saying I don't believe in God. There's no turning back now.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: I'm going to take you guys on a walk that I'd normally do on the way to the centre. On the way back we'll walk a different way.

JB: You walk a very fast pace.

SARAH: Yes! [laughs]

JB: Have you always been that way?

SARAH: Yes. Yes. Perhaps you've never walked before, Josh, but--.

JB: I think we've walked. I just forgot.

SARAH: There it is, 505.

JB: Sarah and I are standing at 505 Georgia Street. It's a two-story building where NXIVM's coaching sessions were held. We've walked for 20 minutes from her condo to where she used to work. This was the heart of Sarah's NXIVM's community and her life.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: Oh my God. I just hate it here.

JB: One of the last times Sarah was here was not long after that conversation with Jim. Most people in Vancouver quit once they learned about DOS and that Sarah and Nippy left NXIVM. Sarah came here with a small group of former members to shut the place down.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH: ...we all came in and packed up the centre. Like, took out all the SP stuff, put it in a box. There is this huge executive success poster board that we got for one of our first, like, personal development fairs we went to where we had like a booth. So this huge executive success board with our pictures on it. And we took turns holding it and kicking it. Like, holding this thing and just ripping into it, and tearing it apart, like, primal screaming. And just crying kicking and swearing we all took turns with that. It was amazingly cathartic.

JB: Sarah made arrangements with Clare Bronfman to hand over materials that belonged to NXIVM. There were bags of sashes and binders full of ESP curriculum. There were reams of paperwork. But there was one thing she didn't want to turn over.

SARAH: The student files had everyone's personal information. Their credit card information, their addresses, their phone numbers, and then their intake form. And their intake form had very personal information, starting with, you know, benign things like, "What are your goals? Why are you coming here?" And then it would say," What's your worst moment in your life, and what's your worst decision?" Think of the worst thing you've ever done and not wanting someone to read that.

JB: Claire went to the Vancouver Police. One of her complaints was that by holding back those files Sarah had committed theft.

JB: Remember that day? Did you get a call from the police?

SARAH: Yes. I got a call from an investigator. He told me what the charges were, for fraud, mischief and theft. And that Claire had come and given them evidence to this. And, you know, my first thought was like I'm happy to come into you everything because I know that I'm in the right and that she's in the wrong and does what she does. This is what they do to discredit and silence witnesses and whistleblowers. Because this is their playbook, right? So I remember on one hand not taking it very seriously. And this... and the same token. being like, "Oh my God. Here we go. Here we go. This is... this is serious.".

JB: Because you know that this has happened to others before you.

SARAH: Yeah, and that's sort of that's kind of been my take this whole time. Like OK. They're going to sue me. Or drag me through the legal system or drain me financially. And at the same time going f**king "bring it on." So I just decided to pull it up. [chuckles]

JB: This was around the time I ran into Sarah on Hornby Island and she told me she had just left a cult. She said Clare Bronfman had filed a criminal complaint against her. She was being blamed for the mass exodus of NXIVM students in Vancouver. She was struggling to find words to tell her story or even know where to begin. After months of research I have a far better appreciation for what was going on. Sarah was about to throw her final punch. Nippy said it had to be a death blow.

SOUNDCLIP

NIPPY: Clare had already pressed charges against Sarah. It kind of felt like if you were taking the temperature of the war at that point we were losing, and we had all our cards and all our eggs in the basket of how the strength of Barry Meyer's article to vindicate us.

JB: They go to the press. They speak with a journalist. A guy named Barry Meier of the New York Times.

[Sound: dial tone]

BARRY MEIER: Hello?

JB: Hi Barry, it's Josh in Toronto. Can you hear me?

BM: Yeah I can hear you.

JB: OK great. I hope you're enjoying retirement.

BM: You know I've been working harder than I did when I was working so. [laughs]

JB: Barry retired after nearly 30 years with the New York Times just after his story about Sarah came out.

BM: This was one of the strangest things I'd ever heard of. Both kind of disturbing and mind boggling.

JB: His article about Sarah was published in October of 2017.

JB: What was your first impression of her and her story?

BM: Well I mean I think was very important for someone who had been branded to speak publicly about that.

SARAH: At this point I wasn't sure if I was going there to talk to him and tell my story, and we agreed that we were going to talk at that point. Like I almost had like a shift. I remember talking to Barry, walking along the seawall in Jericho at the beach there.

BM: And so I think Sarah was very brave.

SARAH: He said something like, the fact that this happened to me that could happen to anybody. I recall when I think about going public, I never considered, you know, my neighbour is reading the news. Or casting directors, or you know, Prime Minister Trudeau. I was only thinking about the people in NXIVM, really. And like, the family members, and like, saving people. And helping women get out of their contracts and getting their collateral back. And also, I mean it was definitely in my mind about like future recruitment. Like I didn't want anyone else to give money. But I didn't really think about the magnitude of that paper being everywhere. You know what I mean? Like no one else cares about this stupid little cult.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS REPORTER 1: NXIVM is under the microscope now after a recent article by The New York Times stating...

NEWS REPORTER 2: ...allegations against a group that...

NEWS REPORTER 3: ...this woman says she was held down and branded during a bizarre initiation...

NEWS REPORTER 4: Nexium released a statement saying they firmly opposed violence and abuse. They also say the allegations...

NEWS REPORTER 5: [Spanish headline]

NEWS REPORTER 6: ...call to action comes after the New York Times published in recent New York Times investigation has revealed damning allegations. Sarah Edmondson...

NEWS REPORTER 7: The brand was literally burned into the flesh of her and four other women. The brand apparently stands for...

SARAH: My watch is on silent... Turn everything off right now. Josh, my phone is blowing up. It is so crazy. Morgan, Josh and I... Josh has day-care. Morgan is smiling [laughs].

JB: Is she your team or do you really have a PR team?

SARAH: No I really have a PR team. She's the head of the PR team. I have a PR team which I actually hired for acting work years ago...

JB: Sarah arrives at our studio in Vancouver with an entourage.

JB: I just saw an image. Someone like posted an image of the print newspaper. It looks like it's above the fold or certainly on the first page.

SARAH: It's on the first page.

JB: The news about her branding is everywhere.

JB: So I want to start off by asking you about you know here we are the morning after this New York Times yes article comes out. What have the last 12 hours been like for you?

SARAH: Last 12 hours have been actually pretty insane. It started...

JB: Even though I knew it was coming, it was shocking to see Sarah on the front page of The New York Times. There's a large photo. She's standing against a wall. The top of her jeans are folded down to reveal the brand on her pelvis. It's still red and swollen. It's the first time I've seen it. It's clear why Sarah's story is different than those that have left before her. She has physical evidence on her body that something is not right with this group.

SARAH: You know I went from being totally silent and within the last couple of weeks. Really just dialling back everything in my life. Now all of a sudden it's like holy s***, the whole world knows. I like to resolve things so it's weird and it's empty and lonely and unfulfilled. And I think, in that way, you know I have a therapist who's helping me through this. There's so much unresolved stuff.

JB: The FBI launched an investigation of NXIVM on the heels of this article. In fact they refer to it in the complaint against Raniere as one of the reasons it was launched. So far. Sarah is the only woman who is in DOS and critical of it who's let the media publish her name and photo. As Sara comes to terms with her new life, her new identity and faces who she was while she was in NXIVM, much of the coverage around her escape from the group paints her as a brave whistleblower. That she risked her own reputation to bring down the organization. But I've discovered that not everyone agrees. There's Keith's perspective and his inner circle's version of events. As well as others who question Sarah's motives and don't see her as a hero.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: Can you just explain, so we have on tape here, why don't you explain what just happened? What's transpired here?

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: We got a notification that we have a letter has come to our attention from our super-secret Dropbox at CBC. We had no idea what it was but we got an e-mail to us and, want me to read it to you?

JB: Yeah.

JB: I'm at work with my producer Kathleen.

SOUNDCLIP

KG: So it says, "Hi. Miss Sarah Edmondson, a Vancouver actress, has been in the news recently and featured by the New York Times for her role in the sex and mind control called NXIVM. In her statements about her involvement with NXIVM, Miss Edmondson mostly claims to be a victim but the truth is she and several of her colleagues were ruthless recruiters for Mr. Raniere and NXIVM for many years. They use bullying tactics, high pressured sales pitches, defamation and trickery.

JB: That's interesting.

KG: Why? What prompted it? Who knows? They're wanting us to see another side of this.

KS: You've been listening to the CBC investigative podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. We'll bring you the final episodes next week. Or can't wait? You can download the rest and binge over the weekend. You can find them at cbc.ca/podcasting. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Tom Power welcomes Mira Sorvino. She won an Oscar for her role in Mighty Aphrodite. She was also among the first people to speak publicly about being sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein. She'll talk about whether the #METOO movement has changed things in the movie industry. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. I'm Katie Simpson, my hosting duties are done. Thank you to the team here for helping me all along the way. David Common is in this chair next week. Thanks for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

The Current Transcript for July 12, 2019

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Prologue

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Uncover: Escaping NXIVM – Episode 5

July 12, 2019 episode transcript

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