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The Current Transcript for January 9, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canadians across the country were shocked and saddened to learn that a fatal plane crash outside of Tehran had claimed 176 innocent lives.

MATT GALLOWAYY: Of 176 passengers on that downed Ukrainian international airlines jet, 138 were bound for Canada, 63 were Canadian citizens. The scale of loss is heartbreaking and unimaginable, especially to members of the Iranian-Canadian community and in Edmonton that loss has been particularly acute.

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VOIC E1: Words simply cannot express the grief that we are feeling on campus. We're a close knit community.

VOICE 2: I constantly think this is a nightmare. Last night I saw this news and I just like, my heart dropped.

VOICE 3: I'm out of words, like it's such a devastating day for us.

MG: This morning, we remember those killed in the crash, speaking with friends who knew them well. Also today, what will the federal government do to address the opioid crisis? As part of our coverage from Thunder Bay, we speak with Patty Hajdu, the federal health minister about whether a safe supply of drugs would help reduce overdoses and whether there is the political will to consider something as controversial as the decriminalization of all drugs. That's in an hour. But we begin with the stories of the lives lost in a country and a community in mourning. Good morning. I'm Matt Callaway and this is The Current.

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Iran deaths

Guests: Reza Akbari, Mehrdad Ariannejad

MG: They were students, doctors, professionals, young soccer players, newlyweds, many heading back home to Canada after visiting Iran for a vacation. 63 of the people on the Ukrainian airlines plane that crashed shortly after takeoff in Tehran were Canadian. Many others had ties here. The victims were from across Canada, Vancouver, Toronto, Halifax, but Edmonton was hit particularly hard, home to about 30 of the passengers. And there was a vigil in that city last night.

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VOICE 1: My prof. Pedram Mousavi, he taught me a class two years ago. I am here to pay respects to him. I was devastated. Especially when I've seen pictures of his family, his two little daughters. I was heartbroken and I don't know what to say. I t's a really sad day today.

VOICE 2: I knew two of the girls that were on the flight. It's devastating. Yes, I couldn't believe it. I kept seeing posts about them and that could've been any of us coming back from home. So that's what makes this really terrifying. We go back every year, every other year. And that could have been us on that flight. Me or my family or my brother, really any one of our other friends. So it's very, very close to-- it hits, it hits close to home.

VOICE 3: What happened is it's the thing that you don't know what happened and the government conceals like information over there. So, yes, it's the feeling like, yes, we have people who have died, who have perished but we also don't know what's going on, what caused that.

MG: Some of the people at a vigil in Edmonton last night. Reza Akbari is the president of the Iranian Heritage Society of Edmonton and he is in our studio in Edmonton. Reza, good morning. I'm sorry for your loss.

REZA AKBARI: Thank you. And it's been, basically, I'm still personally in some extent in this stage of shock and awe. And it's hard for us to believe such a massive sadness. And it's just happening for lots of people in Edmonton. And again, due to my involvement, then my basically our whole board of directors of the Iranian Heritage Society with the community. And we know many of these people, at least we've seen their faces in different events and is just we all have a stories to some extent with them. And it's just in the last 24 hours or so, it's been really challenging for everybody.

MG: What have you been hearing from the community in Edmonton over the last 24 hours? It's a tight knit community. And we were hearing yesterday that if people don't know directly somebody who is involved in somebody knows somebody who's involved. So what are those last 24 hours been like?

REZA AKBARI: Absolutely. Like it's as you describe it. Iranian community fere is all it's about four to five thousand people. And if you add up the international students from Iran, it can potentially be reached or close to six thousand people. It's a small community, but it's very supportive. We all try, for example, every year at the beginning of the year during September school study, when the fall starts we always arrange a basic common accommodation for all the new comer and new students who come into University of Alberta. We go to airport to make sure that there always the support of his students association of Alberta. It is a quite a bit of a sense of support in in among our community. And since this incident happened, obviously everything came to the surface level of people are sharing their stories. People are sharing their memories with them. Like, for instance, if I knew someone just by seeing them in couple gathering and they have known their face, now I know what hundreds of his stories and great things they've done. Their goals in their life, what they wanted to do, because everybody are all there and they're talking about them sharing it in social media. And this makes it much more impactful for all of us. But at the same time, you know, the signs create that sense of community that we are out there to support each other.

MG: What sort of impact do you think this is going to have on the city? As you mentioned, many of the people who were killed were students and professors at the University of Alberta in Edmonton.

REZA AKBARI: Frankly, with what I'm learning a lot about these people that in the past 24 hours, many of them of they're brilliant. They're smart. They were unique of their own fields in his studies and as a professor or as a students, they were all of them in their career or in their path the number- the one of their own fields. So the simple word I can find is they were unreplaceable for sure. And this is a great lost for academic society of Edmonton, for sure.

MG: I'm joined in studio as well by Mehrdad Ariannejad, who is the CEO of the Tirgan Festival Festival of Iranian Culture. That happens at Harbour Front Centre in Toronto. He's with me in our Toronto studio. Good morning to you.

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: Good morning, Matt.

MG: And again, I'm sorry for your loss. What are the lessons here in 24 hours or something like for you?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: It has been very difficult. It was shocking to receive the news and then put faces, you know, on those names and then realize that you know many of them.

MG: Tell me about some of those faces, those names and the stories in particular, the stories of Iman and Parinaz Ghaderpanah.

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: Parinaz and Iman has been active members of Tehran Festival. They have been volunteering with us, trying to raise funds for Tehran Festival and other festivals as well.

MG: How did you first meet them?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: I met them a few years ago in one of our meetings. And I especially noticed Patti knows because she was really energetic and dedicated and very generous. So she had a very unique character.

MG: And in that, what did she bring to the festival as a thriving festival in the city and relies in many ways on the strength of volunteers. What did she bring to that festival?

m: She brought warm attitude, lots of energy. And she used every opportunity to raise funds for the festival because, you know, she had a very good job. She was a branch manager at RBC and she had a big network. So she used her network and her friends and her talents to raise funds for Tehran Festival.

MG: What do you know about how their families are dealing with this unimaginable situation right now?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: I heard that her sister - because her sister lives in Toronto and her sister actually delivered the baby yesterday. And so she was supposed to be an auntie when she comes back to Canada.

MG: Like Edmonton, the Iranian community here is a very tight knit one. And people in Toronto and their community will often refer to the community as Tehranto. Tell me a bit about the community. How would you describe it?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: I would say the community, you know, Iranians started immigrate to Canada, I think, in the 80s. And the first wave were mostly refugees. And then gradually, you know, more immigrants with specific skills they immigrated to Canada. And the community right now, I think is about 100,000-150,000 in Toronto. The community is very highly educated. We have like many doctors, engineers, accountants, builders, businessmen. And yes, the community is very supportive as well.

MG: What do you expect from the community in a time like this, given how supportive it is, given how close knit it is?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: The community, I would say because, you know, politics divides and the community- most of the time, there are divisions inside the community. But when it comes to these kind of tragic events, the community gets together and gets united. And I think that's what I expect from the community this time, to come together, unite and support each other and support the families who are grieving over the course of the last 24 hours.

MG: We have learned more about those who were on that plane, Ghanimat Azhdari was a PhD student at the University of Guelph had started the program in September, focussing in particular on Iran's indigenous nomadic communities. And this is her advisor, Professor Faisal Moola.

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VOICE 1: Ghanimat was working on her huge deal to try to advance new innovative forms of conservation governance, while at the same time protecting the importance by a cultural knowledge that indigenous people have about the plants and animals that they share the planet with.

VOICE 2: Different breeds of camels, sheeps, goats are part of our hearts and our soul.

VOICE 1: This was a woman not particularly tall in stature. She was probably five foot nothing, but who could command people's attention through not just her incredible technical knowledge of science and policy, but also this incredibly strong personal narrative of being an indigenous woman, being an Iranian indigenous woman, and her deep commitment and love for her traditional territory.

VOICE 2: There is custom. There is conservation areas belonging to the land and territory and not only geographically, but also spiritually.

VOICE 1: Her loss is an enormous tragedy. It's a great loss for my lad, for our students, but it's also a great loss for the planet in terms of a young scholar, a young environmentalist who had really innovative ideas on how he can protect nature with indigenous peoples.

MG: She sounds like an incredible person, Reza Akbari, what are you thinking as you listen to that?

REZA AKBARI: It's just sad. It's very sad. It's especially for me as Iranian to see and hear someone dedicating their education and pat on such magnificent and impactful. This study can be for our heritage, for the indigenous. It's just very heart touching.

MG: Why were there so many Iranian Canadians on that flight matter?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: I think because after the after European, many European airlines stopped their flights to Tehran, there are just a few choices left for the Iranian Canadians to take the flights. And I think this is one of the cheapest flights.

MG: What are the questions that the community has about what happened? We've heard from Iran that it has the black boxes from the flight, but it's not going to hand them over to the United States investigators or to Boeing. That will do its own investigation. Are you concerned about that?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: Absolutely. As prime minister mentioned yesterday, Canadians deserve to know the truth. And we're all waiting for the investigation to proceed. And we would like to know what happened.

MG: Reza, are you surprised by that, that the Iranians will do their own investigation?

REZA AKBARI: Well, to be frankly, I'm not surprised that Iranian government wants to do this in one side, the other side. But as a as a Canadian citizen, I think we all deserve- just the good government of Iran. It's- it's obviously in every aspect they concerned about their own interest vs. anything else in a case. And as you mentioned, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau mentioned that we, Canadian, deserve to know the truth. And I don't I personally don't accept that. I don't think most Iranians would accept that.

MG: It's the family members, I'm sure, that are that are most demanding of those answers and want to know what's happened. I want to have you listen to another voice. Dr. Sharieh Faghihi he was travelling back to Halifax after visiting her mother. Family friend, Reza Rahimi, says that Dr. Faghihi had moved to Canada to create a better life for her children. He spoke with us yesterday afternoon.

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REZA RAHIMI: She always cared about me. She always cared about my family. Sharieh was a caring mom and a dentist here in Halifax. For me, since the time I came to Canada, she always supported me. She always had my back and I felt that she was my mom here in Canada, she was a great woman. She was a feminist. And she taught me how to be a feminist, how to respect women. I was thinking that one day I might, I might be able to be kind to her the way she was kind to me. But I didn't have the chance. I don't know the cause that made them die, but [cries] but when they're gone. And nothing's going to change. But for sure, for their families, they want to know what was the reason. They want to know if someone's responsible for that. It's like a shock to us. I don't believe it happens. Just waiting for someone to wake me up and say it was a nightmare. It was done and everyone was safe.

MG: It's incredibly emotional listening to the stories.

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: It Is.

MG: It's about. I mean, you hear the stories of potentially you hear stories about people who are community builders, who are who are nation builders, who are making the country better. When you listen, I just think of the look on your face, Mehrdad. When you when you listen to those stories, what's going through your mind?

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: I remember all those people who migrated to have a better life in Canada, as the person who was talking mentioned, they're all educated. They're all talented. They can lead, you know, many different things, many different projects. They can change the societies, they can change the world. And it's heartbreaking to see, you know, they just perish like this.

MG: Reza, how are you processing all of this? It's been- Not just this, but it's been a difficult last few weeks for your community as well.

REZA AKBARI: It's been, frankly, like we were up last night as a group working on different matters, trying to communicate with peoples, students and that they know any of these individuals and gathered more information, more stories as we are trying to build up a website in their memory as well. And so we were up until almost two o'clock. And everybody at the end of the day, when we were leaving the office in the area, and we just as much as we were tired, we were just still talking of the fact that we can not believe and what project we are working right now. And it's like we all came to working as a volunteer supporting our community. We never thought we would be at this stage. We're going to among any other things we want to do. We are working on building a memorial website for-- for as much as we are working on this website we are learning more and more about these people and we just really understand the true, the truth, the depth of the lost among our community.

MG: The community is in mourning and the nation is in mourning. And Reza, I appreciate you speaking with us this morning. And again, I'm sorry for your loss and for our loss. Thank you.

REZA AKBARI: Thank you.

MG: And Mehrdad thank you to you.

MEHRDAD ARIANNEJAD: Thank you very much.

Mehrdad Ariannejad is the CEO of the Tirgan Festival. It is an Iranian cultural festival at Harbour Front Centre in Toronto. He was with me in our studio here in Toronto. Reza Akbari, president of the Iranian Heritage Society of Edmonton. He was in our studio in Edmonton. Well, this is a tragedy that certainly touches the Iranian Canadian community, but it is a national tragedy as well. And members of communities across the country were mourning yesterday, commemorating the friends and families that they lost.

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VOICE 1: It was such a horrible day for me, because I was so close to him, like not only me, like everyone, whomever working I should say, for him, but he didn't like that. Whenever we said that, we're working for you, he was like, no, we're working together. We were part of a family group. He he did his best to give us more.

VOICE 2: Me and [unintelligible] were in the same research program. We used to go to research meetings together and talking about research, talking about their plans, the things that we wanted to do.

VOICE 3: Most of them is a student in the university in Canada. Very high level and smart. And unfortunately, it's very terrible for them. But all of the Irani and the lost this kind of the young, smart people.

VOICE 4: The first week she was here. She was always asking about like, when can I go back home to meet my family. She missed them a lot and she was super excited to get back home.

VOICE 5: Most sadness things about this tragedy is they came from vacation. They just had to have two weeks off to go home, back home to see parents and grandmothers. And they were so young and beautiful and so happy about everything.

MG: CBC News is next. And then it's still too early to say why the Ukrainian International Airlines plane went down. But some aviation experts are already exploring some theories. The politics of the investigation, coming up. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

Plane crash investigation could be Canada's chance to re-open diplomatic ties with Iran: former minister

Guests: Christine Negroni, Colin Robertson, Allan Rock

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Patty Hajdu has worked in harm prevention and substance abuse programs in Thunder Bay, so she knows well the issues of addiction in her community. Now she's the federal health minister and in half an hour, I'll talk to her about what she thinks needs to happen to slow the overdose crisis facing that city and this country. But first, the politics of the crash investigation of Flight PS 752.

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Indications that we have suggests that it took off in a normal fashion. However, we lost contact with it, suggesting that something very unusual happened, but we cannot speculate at this point or a number of possibilities and we will have to wait to obtain more information perhaps from the black boxes or from other intelligence. But at this point, it's too early to speculate.

Too early to speculate for Transport Minister Marc Garneau. But that hasn't stopped people from trying to piece together why the Ukrainian International Airlines plane went down near Tehran. 176 people died, including 63 Canadians, leaving many people searching for answers. Christine Negroni is a former aircraft accident investigator and the author of The Crash Detectives and Deadly Departure. We reached her in Madrid, Spain. Christine, good morning.

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Good morning.

MG: When you heard of this crash, what was your initial reaction?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: I was on an aeroplane soon as I turned on my phone on landing and saw the news, my eyes definitely shot open. There's a lot of things going on. I mean, what's happening in the region, the threat to air safety in the region and all of that. So it's just very complicated. And this does take us back to Malaysia 17, which was shot down over the Ukraine. You know, just a simple or civil airliner flying across a combat zone. And, you know, that could very well be what happened here in Iran. It might not be, you know, we just don't know.

MG: The transport minister Marc Garneau says it's too early for speculation. But as I mentioned, people are already doing that. The initial suggestion was perhaps this was engine failure. Do believe that this could have happened because of engine failure?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Well, I think it's unlikely, but an air accident happens and it could be anything. But within minutes you can start to rule out certain things. For example, if there was no lightning in the area, then we can rule out lightning. But so far we can't rule out a missile. There's nothing that happened in this accident that says, well, it couldn't be. It's not speculating. It's keeping some doors open and closing other doors. Right now, there's, you know, there's hostilities going on, there's missiles being fired. And this aeroplane appears to have some similarities to an aeroplane that was shot down by a missile.

MG: What are those similarities?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Well, for one thing, there appears to have been an explosion onboard the aircraft before it hit the ground or some sort of severe fire, a large fire. And also, it appears that the aeroplane might have been coming apart in flight prior to hitting the ground. We see in the video that was posted by the student news service that large pieces of the aircraft were coming off the aeroplane as it was still in flight. And then we have a debris field on the ground that is not concentrated, meaning that the aeroplane didn't hit and then break up. When aeroplanes break up in the air. It usually means there was something onboard that created a devastating impact to the structure. But the fact that this aeroplane appears to be coming apart means there was likely some kind of explosion. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a missile. There could have been some other reason for the explosion onboard. But at this point, the missile gets a gold star next to it because we know there was missile activity in the area several hours earlier.

MG: And that's why you believe it's unlikely that there would have just been an engine failure to bring this plane down?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Well, yes, an engine failure doesn't cause an aeroplane to crash. Now, an engine failure that's uncontained, that causes fan blades to whirl out and actually hit the aircraft, which has happened in the past, here's a method that could possibly cause an explosion as if there was an uncontained engine failure. A hot piece of fan blade penetrated a fuel tank. And then you might see this sort of thing happen. But that's at this step leading to this step leading to this step. Would have been a bomb onboard the aircraft. Well, cargo onboard the aircraft, there could be some sort of a static discharge in the fuel tank that would create an explosion in the fuel tank that is not a criminal act or a terrorist act. So clearly there was some sort of explosion. Even the Iranians are now saying that their investigative team is going to include one that looked into explosion issues. That doesn't necessarily mean missile. There could be other causes, less nefarious cause.

MG: The Iranian investigators have their hands on the black boxes. Do you believe that Iran has the technical capabilities to interpret the data from those flight recorders?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: I don't know whether they do. I think it's unlikely. You know, there've been the sanctions for a long, long time in there. The Iranian aircraft are somewhat old. They don't have reason to have a lot of that equipment on hand. But that is not at all uncommon for a nation doing an investigation to send the black boxes out to another investigative body that does have the expertise. What's interesting that they immediately said they weren't going to send it to Boeing or to the National Transportation Safety Board. But you kind of get it. I mean, we're practically at war with the Iranians in the United States. So there's lots of other options for them to use. The Iranian French have a fairly good relationship. French BEA, well known for its ability to download the data. I was suggesting maybe the Canadians ought to be doing the works. And you have a very strong expertise in flight data recorders in Canada and you have so many citizens onboard.

MG: What can you tell us just briefly about this plane? This is a modern aircraft. A lot of people fly on the Boeing 737 800. What can you tell us about this plane?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Well, the 737 is the world's most popular airliner. They've been flying since the 60s. It's been upgraded year after year after year, up until the point where we now have the max. But that's another story. You know, there's nothing to be read into the fact that this is a 737 over any other airliner except to the extent that if it is a fuel tank explosion - and again, I have no reason to believe it is, only that it's something you can't not consider at this point, because that is a known failure on Boeing airliners. The 737, the 747, a lot of Boeing airliners have this propensity to have the wing centre wing tank that can explode under certain conditions. Several years ago, the FAA mandated that that situation be addressed on new designs, not necessarily older designs. Know that's a tuck it in the back of your mind sort of thing. It's unlikely given the weather circumstances. You need heat for that. And this is a new airliner. One of the things that's interesting about this aircraft that I'd take a look at is the fact that it just came out of maintenance. You know, there's plenty of opportunities for things to not be done correctly or things not to be reassembled correctly. So, you know, aeroplanes just out of maintenance, you know, you raise an eyebrow about that. You can be sure that the investigators will be looking at the maintenance records on that aircraft.

MG: Just briefly, do you think that we will ever really find out what happened in this crash, given all of the complicating circumstances and as you mentioned, the very tense relationship and particularly between Iran and the United States?

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Oh, yes, absolutely. Listen, I write about aviation mysteries. This is not going to be a mystery. It's not going to be a mystery. We have video already. We have people all over the ground with a debris field that's being looked at. We have you know, Iran has already filed its report with ICAO, indicating that it plans to comply with international civil guidelines for how an air accident should be solved. You know, there's just there's a lot of eyes on this one.

MG: Christine Negroni, I appreciate you speaking with us this morning. Thank you.

CHRISTINE NEGRONI: Thank you.

MG: Christine Negroni is a former aircraft accident investigator and the author of The Crash Detectives and Deadly Departure. She was in Madrid, Spain.

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Canada has closed its embassy in Iran effective immediately and declared persona non grata, all remaining Iranian diplomats in Ottawa. Canada, views the government of Iran as the most significant threat to global peace and security in the world today.

MG: John Baird was the conservative foreign affairs minister in September of 2012, and there have been no formal diplomatic relations between Ottawa and Tehran since. That might make getting answers about this crash harder to come by. Colin Robertson is vice president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute and a former Canadian diplomat. Colin, good morning.

COLIN ROBERTSON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What role would a Canadian ambassador in Iran play in the aftermath of a crash like this one?

COLIN ROBERTSON: Well, they'd immediately be talking about the foreign ministry and ministry that are responsible for the investigation, as well as fielding the calls from the families back in Canada and family members that would be in Tehran. You act as kind of a coordinator on Point Centre to deal with tragedies like this. Well, this is not-- these things unfortunately happen and one of the key roles of an embassy is to act as a coordinator for Canadian interests. And obviously, we've got significant Canadian interests because a number of Canadians that were killed in this crash.

MG: So given the lack of relations, then how does Canada go about getting answers about the crash from around?

COLIN ROBERTSON: Well, we've had a number of other foreign countries have relations with Iran. So right now, I understand the Italians are principal managers, but there are others like the Dutch, the French, the British that we would be calling to ask for assistance as appropriate. Some of these citizens and some of these Canadians may also have other citizenship as well. So you work through that, but it is much harder. The whole point of diplomacy is to be there. And that's why my view is which we should have somebody in Tehran. It's not a good housekeeping seal of approval for the regime. It's simply a means by which countries do business together because we all have interests.

MG: The prime minister was asked about this yesterday. He was speaking about how Ottawa is trying to work around its lack of Canadian diplomats in Iran. Here's what he said.

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We are preparing consular teams that will be prepared to go to Iran. There are conversations we have to have with the Iranian government. But as I said, Italy, that has played a role as our supporting power and our interlocutor in Iran for many years now has offered all the assistance they can offer. They have offered full assistance. Other countries like Australia and France and Ukraine and others have also offered their support.

MG: People are pulling together. But does the lack of a Canadian presence there truly put us on the back foot?

COLIN ROBERTSON: Yes, I think so. I have no doubt that our friends and allies will be helpful. But again, they'll have priorities too. And we would fall short of second in that list. So again, you can send a team there, but it will take some time. By the time they get there, the days have elapsed and people usually want sort of immediate relief and they won't have the contact base that you would have when you when you actually have somebody on site. That's the whole point of having the diplomatic representation. You develop a network and contact base for use in any kind of emergency or any kind of contingency.

MG: And that's what you mean when you say and you've written about this as well. Diplomacy is about being there. It's about being on the ground.

COLIN ROBERTSON: Absolutely. Exactly. And, you know, this is a country of 80 million people. Again, we do not like its governments. And there are things their government has done that we appropriately criticize and have taken sanctions on. But the whole point of diplomacy is to be there. Use your eyes and your ears and your voice when and when necessary. That's how you do business with people. You just don't close doors. So I think this is a big enough country that we should probably - when the Trudeau government came in and there was talk that they would look at it. Then Foreign Minister Dion talked about and said, really, not having somebody there put us at a disadvantage. And I think that's exactly right. So I think we should this should be hacked with a kind of a catalyst to once again think about having somebody there. Again, it's not because we endorse the regime. It's because we have significant interests representing the Canadians, the Iranian-Canadian community, as well as the students. Well, there's a number of students from Iran that come to Canada again. That's a that's a service industry that the Canadian mission can help to facilitate.

MG: What happened in 2012? We heard John Baird speaking forcefully there about the Iranian government. What happened in 2012 that would lead Canada to break off diplomatic relations with Iran?

COLIN ROBERTSON: It was kind of a combination of things. The human rights abuses. There was a Canadian Iranian photographer, Zahra Kazemi, who was killed in Iranian captivity. At that point Mr. Baird said, okay, we're simply going to break relations and declared the Iranians who were in Ottawa persona non grata, sent them home and then we closed our embassy and then sent families, had to rely upon others, as the prime minister noted, Italy, to facilitate our interests. My view was that I don't think that we need to take that step. I think you can withdraw some of your members, some traditional- which happens when there's a problem. You should withdraw your ambassador. But my view is that that's when you really need an ambassador. The whole point of an ambassador is to-- because they usually have the best set of contacts. So again, my perspective would be you keep your people there. Again, it's not an endorsement of the government you're dealing with, but it's there to represent Canadian interests.

MG: What's your sense as to why the Trudeau government hasn't resumed diplomatic relations with Iran?

COLIN ROBERTSON: Well, I think they've had a lot on their plate for the whole Canada-U.S. relationship, Canada-China relationship, there has not been a lot of reinvestment in foreign affairs. We've shifted policy orientation. I think appropriately the feminist development policy. But there's a lot on the agenda. And I think that this fell further back and simply just didn't get dealt with. I think Foreign Minister Dion would have. But I think what Chrystia Freeland, came in, she came in with one major party, the appropriate one dealing with the United States relationship. And then since then, other things come along. The government has other priorities. But I think having diplomatic relationships, especially as we're now planning, six months from now, we'll be facing election for a seat on the Security Council. And one of the things that Canada has over both Ireland and Norway, our two competitors, is that we're G7 country G20. We really do have worldwide reach. And I think being in places like Tehran, being in places like Pyongyang and North Korea will give us a perspective on international problems. And as a country that aspires to middle power status, you have to rely upon your diplomatic service. And we traditionally had a very good diplomatic service. You think back to Pearson's days and the rest. And I think that's something the government should reinvest in because we live in a very turbulent world. Things are changing. And if you want to play, you have to be there.

MG: Do you think, just briefly, do you think that decision or the lack of action from the Trudeau government has been influenced at all by the United States and its foreign policy?

COLIN ROBERTSON: I don't think so. Because I think the magic Americans are always very interested in what we hear. We are a country that they find has the most similar sort of feel for. Things were different the United States. But they understand us. We understand them. So they're always very interested. When we did have a chargé in Tehran. We have somebody in Havana. They're always very interested in what we're hearing and picking up. So I don't think this was as a result of U.S. pressure. Again, you can take a forceful stand, but you can still be there and the Americans are, they are always interested in the Canadian perspective on what we're hearing.

MG: Colin Robertson, thank you.

COLIN ROBERTSON: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Colin Robertson, vice president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. He was in Sarasota, Florida. Allan Rock is a former liberal cabinet minister, Canadian ambassador to the United Nations. He's in our studio in Ottawa. Allan, good morning to you.

ALLAN ROCK: Good morning, Matt.

MG: We'll get to the issue around Canada's lack of a diplomatic presence in Iran in just a moment. But if you take a look at this crash, Iran says it's going to lead the investigation. It says it will not send the black boxes that it's recovered to Boeing or U.S. investigators. Do you think the Canadians will actually get to the bottom of what happened? Should we be confident that we'll find out what actually happened in this crash?

ALLAN ROCK: Well, I agree with what Christine Negroni said, which is that there's enough international focus on this incident. There are enough people who want answers that I think we will discover what happened. I think sending the black boxes to Boeing or to the United States is not the only approach. Canada itself has offered its own expertise. We've offered to be helpful any way we can. There are other countries, including France, who can help in interpreting what's on those black boxes. I think we will find out what happened. It's in the interests of everyone, including, I think, the Iranians.

MG: Do you think it's in the realm of possibility that given the scale of the loss in this country, Canada could convince Iran to seek more outside help?

ALLAN ROCK: I certainly hope we can. I know we will try. I think Minister Garneau and his team have made it clear that they're going to try to influence the Iranians to take a constructive and thorough approach to the investigation. We have our own complications with Iran. However, you know, at the United Nations, every year we introduce a resolution condemning Iran for its human rights abuses that's arising from the Zahra Kazemi case in the early 2000s. And Canadian woman who was imprisoned and who died in Iran. That has strained relations between the countries. And, of course, we ended our diplomatic presence, as you discussed earlier in 2012, which complicates things, too. But I think we'll bring whatever pressure we can to bear on the Iranians to open up this investigation and make it thorough.

MG: The prime minister was asked directly yesterday whether he would rule out the possibility that this plane had been shot down. He said it was too early to rule that out. Does that surprise you?

ALLAN ROCK: Not at all. I think that while some things can be excluded, including lightning, as Negroni said, I think it should be approached with an open mind to find out what could possibly have caused this to occur. And until we get the experts looking at the scene, reconstructing the aeroplane, examining the evidence, it's impossible to come to a conclusion. And while certain things can be ruled out, others cannot. So I think the open minds should prevail until we get the evidence.

MG: If this tragedy was somehow related to Iran's missile strikes against U.S. targets earlier on Tuesday night, whether that was intentional or not. Do you think Iran would ever admit that?

ALLAN ROCK: It's hard to believe that they would. But the evidence, depending on the evidence, the world will be left to draw its own conclusion. That's why it's so important to get the evidence to look at it objectively. And I very much hope that Canada will be an active participant in the investigation, that our expertise will be called upon. Ukraine is also going to be part of this. So let's get the facts on the table and go from there.

MG: And we're trying to do that, though, without people on the ground. Do you think that the decision in 2012 to close Canada's embassy in Tehran was a mistake?

ALLAN ROCK: I do. I was deeply disappointed when Canada made that move. I think that the Harper government was in error in doing that. I think that the only way to, first of all, protect and advance our own interests in this world and to add value in the community of nations is to have diplomatic representation. And merely having an embassy there and having their embassy here does not mean that we approve of that government's policies. It means that we recognize the importance of dialogue not withstanding our differences.

MG: Colin Robertson's points then the current prime minister, Justin Trudeau, made a mistake in not reopening that embassy and re-establishing diplomatic ties.

ALLAN ROCK: I would say that I'm disappointed that since 2015, we've not been able to re-establish diplomatic relations. And of course, given the current circumstances, including the heightened tension between the United States and Iran, it's become more difficult than ever now to re-establish those relations. I would hope that our involvement with the Iranians through this investigation will help to. Open the door to the point where we can re-establish relations diplomatically and get somebody on the ground in Tehran who is a Canadian representative.

MG: We asked to speak this morning with the Transport Minister, Marc Garneau, and the Foreign Affairs Minister, Francois-Philippe Champagne. Both declined an interview this morning. What steps do you think the government should take to ensure that there is some accountability for the Canadians who've been affected by this?

ALLAN ROCK: I think we have the right to expect that our government will use every means possible to influence the nature and the course of this investigation. We have interlocutors, including Italy and in France and Australia and Ukraine, who are able to help us communicate with the Iranians. We can also have some informal communication directly with that government. I think our interest in the investigation is clear. So many Canadians were impacted by this tragedy.

MG: Including, I mean, you teach at the University of Ottawa and we know that students there were affected by this.

ALLAN ROCK: Three of our students lost their lives yesterday morning. So it's had a huge impact on Canada. And I think we have the right to expect that we will use every means possible to ensure that we get to the bottom of this, that there's a thorough and objective investigation.

MG: But like our guest earlier, you are confident that those answers will be coming?

ALLAN ROCK: One way or another, I believe they will.

MG: Allan Rock, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

ALLAN ROCK: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Allan Rock is a former federal cabinet minister and Canadian ambassador to the United Nations. He is currently a law professor at the University of Ottawa.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Coming up in our next half hour.

SOUNDCLIP

I think the battle is shifting. I don't think we have ever not had a battle with substance use in this city. I mean, we battled alcohol and we still do. So are we losing the battle? I don't think we've made any headway. That's for sure.

MG: Canada's new health minister also happens to be the member of parliament for Thunder Bay. And we've been talking all week about the opioid overdose crisis in that Ontario city. Up next, I'll ask Patty Hajdu, too, about what needs to happen to actually make some headway in dealing with this crisis. My name's Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

Stigma around opioid use needs to be broken down to solve the lethal crisis: Health Minister Patty Hajdu

Guest: Patty Hajdu

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current and all this week we've had special programming from a trip we took to Thunder Bay, Ontario. That community is struggling with an opioid overdose crisis. It's taking more lives per capita than anywhere else in Ontario. We've heard from families who want the deaths of their loved ones to be considered murder. And from frontline workers in the city watching this problem grow. Today, the politics.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Hi, how are you?

VOICE 2: Good.

VOICE 1: Hi, everyone.

VOICE 2: That was your office back there?

VOICE 1: That was my office back there. Yes.

MG: Patty Hajdu, who used to have an office here. Where at Shelter House Thunder Bay. It's an organization she used to run. It helps people living in poverty. Patty Hajdu, who is now the MP for Thunder Bay Superior North. And in November, she was appointed the federal minister of health. On a chilly morning in December, we settled into a conference room for our discussion.

MG: One of the things that we've heard from people and it's across the spectrum, from paramedics and police, from people who are trying to stay sober, from those on the front lines, is that the scale of this is something different than it was even in the last couple of years. Certainly in the last, certainly different than it was, you know, five, 10 years ago. Do you think the city is losing that battle against drugs? That seemed to be the perception is that people, whether it's the gangs that have arrived in the means that they're using or just the widespread scale of it, the fact that everybody is touched by this, that it feels as though, you know, people are treading water anymore, that the water is kind of creeping up. Do you think the city is losing its battle?

PATTY HAJDU: I think the battle is shifting. I don't think we've ever not had a battle with substance use. And this is my challenge with talking about solely opiates. Although opiates are obviously extremely lethal and people can die very quickly, especially with the adulteration of opiates and the sort of recent five years or so or increase in that. But we've always had a battle with substance use in this city. I mean, we battled alcohol and we still do every single day. And that have that's been a constant. So are we losing the battle? I don't think we've made any headway. That's for sure. I think that changes, I think the population is shifting. And that's what the evidence says that I've been able to review since I've been the health minister, the few weeks that I've been the health minister. In the first briefing that I had on the opiate situation in Canada, one of the data points that really jumped out at me was the the preponderance of overdose in the sort of 25 to 44 year old male, fully employed, dying at home. Okay. This is a new conversation. I was shocked and I was shocked for a couple reasons. One, all of the responses that we've got, I should say, all but many of the responses that we've got all across the country are really focussed on sort of the street engaged user, which is really important. Harm reduction is a critical tool in this. You know, communities, though, look different all across the country. And if so, if the data is showing that in places like ours, towns like ours and Alberta, for example, is really having numbers like this where we've got a large number of sort of trades involved, you know, blue collar men who are dying alone, who are employed - and we have very few responses to that category of people - then we're missing the boat. And so I think that I think this situation is changing and evolving. And I think that the conversation that we have to have in communities like this is a broader one around all substance use and also all different kinds of response. I think that the increase in gang activity, though, is something that's pretty new. It's a different kind of gang that we're seeing. I mean, we've always had gangs as well. We've had Hells Angels and [unintelligible] Choice. And some people will tell you that with the absence of those gangs, there's a vacuum for new gangs to come in. I think the situation is changing.

MG: Given all of that, how did we have an election where I don't remember people talking about the opioid crisis at all?

PATTY HAJDU: It's been a challenge since Beckford involved in this space in terms of the stigma of substance here. So couple of things I think. One is people think that's happening to somebody else's family. Still, I think society and generally sees this as, generally sees this as, a law and order issue, that we can somehow enforce our way out of this problem, that if we just had enough guns and gangs money, our police on the street or, you know, we could put more people in jail and get rid of the drug dealers, that this would clean up the problem. That's not the case. There was always a demand issue as well. I mean, if people want to use substances, they'll find a way to use substances and they'll find them. I think the other challenge is that people still don't think necessarily that it's happening to people like them. Although the many middle class families have lost sons and brothers and obviously women die of this as well. But certainly I would argue otherwise. And I think that it's there's still so much shame in losing someone when you're, quote unquote, a member of the middle class that there's not that conversation as loudly as there could be. And we've done a lot of work on mental health, for example. And it's no longer as stigmatizing to say, I struggle with depression or I have anxiety. But there is still a lot of stigma in saying my child is addicted to opiates and every single day, I don't know if I'm going to find them alive or dead in his bedroom.

MG: Would you admit then that the stigma prevented parties like yours from actually talking about this, that the stigma about what we're actually talking about has prevented that from being an open discussion and something as important as an election?

PATTY HAJDU: No, I don't think so. I mean, we've got actions in my mandate that are specifically related to this. And as a matter of fact, I've been extremely proud of the work that we've done. For example, restoring harm reduction, making it easier for community based responses that, for example, out west include a safer supply of prescribed opiates that that allow people to know better what's in their drugs. And I think it does it a disservice to say it's all about opiate use. I think it's about community wellness. I think it's about understanding that humans are, you know, that we can't separate the mind and the body and that there's a holistic approach to politics, which is the social determinants of health. Inclusion, for example, is a huge piece of keeping people healthy. So that maybe that's part of the answer is that it's a complex conversation. I mean, when we talk about a national housing strategy, it obviously includes people who use substances in street, engaged people. And reducing homelessness is a huge piece of the solution. So maybe that's it. But I think the other challenges, sometimes I've noticed in the work that I do as a politician, the conversation is driven by the people who are designing the debates, by the people who are asking the questions, by the media interest in this and that. And so it's very difficult sometimes to weave in a conversation that the country doesn't want to have in whatever form that's coming at you. For example, in the debates that I had, not one question around opiate, certainly questions around crime. So I think, you know, stigma does a whole bunch of things. And it's dangerous because at the end of the day, it prevents people from talking about the services they need, the supports that they need to either support someone they love or to get the help that they need to move forward. And it's on all of us. It's the way that we talk about substance use. It's the words that we use. I'm really pleased that the words and the language that we're using and in in our party and our government has removed the notion of, for example, substance abuse. You know that we're talking about people who use substances. And we're reframing it in a respectful way, because what's the difference between, you know, a white collar guy who goes home and has a quarter of a bottle of scotch at the end of the night to ease his stress about the markets? And someone who lives in a lower middle class sort of setting, who goes home and smokes a couple joints and has six beer, not a lot, except for the substance that they're consuming and where they're consuming them. And when you're talking about people who are absolutely homeless, there's such a stigma to drinking outside. But where where do people drink if they're completely homeless? So getting around that stigma is really, really important because it's actually preventing people from getting the help they need.

MG: Let me ask you a question about the enforcement piece. We met with the chief of police and the head of the drug squad here in Thunder Bay. And they talked about resources and they talked about what they don't have to fight the gangs that they say are everywhere in Thunder Bay. The liberals gave something like 50 million dollars to the province of Ontario for guns and gangs. Thunder Bay wasn't on the list of municipalities that the Ford government approved that money to go to. So chief of police says we didn't get the money that we need to actually fight this. Do you think decisions are being made with the knowledge and the interests of the communities where those decisions land?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I've always been a proponent of community led decisions. I think that when we respect the knowledge of community, that that's when we get to the strongest solutions. And that's why the way that we respond to opiates. And someplace like Vancouver might be completely different than the middle of Alberta. And I think it's really important that communities have control over their responses. It was unfortunate that they didn't get any of that money from Ontario's allotment. That's partly why we have in our platform working more directly with communities on supporting enforcement, but also supporting treatment. So, you know, there's and again, I'm not sure of the exact amount. I think 700 million dollars in our platform for enhancing community based treatment solutions. I'm really excited about that. That envelope of money, because for me, coming from community, I can see how that would look differently all across the country. And I think, you know, obviously we have a delicate balance between obviously jurisdictional separations of powers. But also, I think we have a responsibility as a federal government with the portfolios that we have to get as much money to communities in a way that actually makes sense for them to use it.

MG: Knowing the city as you do, though, in terms of the work that you do, but also where it's located physically, geographically, what we heard again from people was decisions made at Queen's Park don't make any sense for people here in Thunder Bay. Would you agree with that?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I can certainly see how they feel that. I mean, I I'm not involved in those decisions at Queen's Park, so I don't know how they're making their decisions.

MG: But you know the effect of them.

PATTY HAJDU: But I would say. It was extremely, like I said earlier, extremely disappointing that Thunder Bay hasn't been considered for some of that money. Also, the community health teams that have been announced, Thunder Bay didn't receive any support for additional community health teams here. You know, the merging of the public health units, I'm still to be determined what that looks like. But if the health units across northwestern Ontario lose capacity, public health is a huge arm in terms of prevention and awareness. And I think we can be a partner with communities in advocating for humane drug policy. You know, we've really divided the idea of using drugs up into sort of good drugs and bad drugs and good people who use drugs and bad people who use drugs. And that all has to end. I mean, you know, we have substances that are highly sanctioned and promoted in our society and alcohol is one of them. If you think about the amount of alcohol that's consumed by Canadians and the amount of burden that it places on our health systems, on our social systems and our justice systems. And yet we never talk about alcohol. And why is that? Because that's sort of the favourite drug. And yet we have all these other drugs that people are stigmatized for using. And I think that's an artificial separation. And I think that it's important that we say that, you know, good people use drugs. Everybody, somebodies brother, everybody, somebody's sister and her cousin, our grandma. And I think we forget about that when we're talking about drug users, especially when we're talking about drug users as a solidified group of people that somehow have all the similar tendencies. It's not true.

MG: The people who work on the frontlines here in Thunder Bay, overwhelmingly, including the people who now believe the drug policy strategy that you helped create, say that the answer to this, what we need to get out of this system and the situation that not just under Bay, but people across the country or in is a safe supply, that you need to legalize or decriminalize the use of drugs, not just cannabis, not just alcohol across the spectrum. And that will create a safe supply. And people will stop poisoning themselves. Do you support that approach? Do you support decriminalization or legalization?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I think if you talk to the countries that have decriminalized, of course, they've seen some success, but there's some really big differences. And I think for me, the challenge is you can't just decriminalize without the other pieces. And the other pieces are, for example, in Portugal - and you probably know this - there are supports that are offered to people that are struggling with substances and find themselves in conflict with the law as a result. And there their immediate. So if someone is arrested for the possession of an amount of substance that exceeds their there there law, the person must go in front of a dissuasion court and dissuades in court says, will you accept help today, essentially some form of intervention and if the person says, yes, I'm homeless or yes, I need job skills training or yes, I need mental health supports or yes, I have a physical or mental illness that needs treatment, they get that right away. Can you imagine that? That would be a beautiful thing. And so I don't think we can talk about the decriminalization or legalization of all drugs without also having a corresponding system that has adequate, if not excellent, supports for people in the aftermath of whatever comes next. So, listen, I think that the kinds of work that we're doing on safer supply, that's community based. For example, with the city of Vancouver, prescription opiates that are monitored and prescribed. We're working on some ideas around testing supply. I think all of those things are very, very important. I would also point to alcohol again, because alcohol is legal and it is still the number one driver of the costs in our system. And so I would say that there is no silver bullet to this answer. I get the desire and I get the idea that advocates are calling for this. But I think that there if you look at the Thunder Bay drug strategy, it is vast in the number of recommendations, many of them that we've been able to achieve through this liberal federal government. But there are still many that need to happen through the provincial government and the system in general that would support people.

MG: How difficult is it to talk about this politically? I mean, is it toxic to talk about the idea of greater liberalisation we saw? I mean, if there was any mention of the opiate crisis in the election, it was, you know, fake ads that were run saying that the liberals are going to legalize heroin and make it widely available, meant to scare a certain population. Politically, is it possible to have this big, serious conversation.

PATTY HAJDU: I am with you right now. So I hope that I hope that it is. I think that part of the challenge is when you politicized things like drug legalization or a safe supply. What you do is you essentially create a whole bunch of fear in populations that maybe don't fully understand what the implications are, how you could actually support people who use substances in a logical way. It's really demeaning to substance users as well. If you think about the message that the conservatives were portraying in the last election about how liberals were going to legalize everything and make it easier for your kids to-- how demeaning to people that actually do use substances and how defeating to a more progressive message that substance use problems are health problems and that people use substances are family members and are people that we love. So I think for me, the answer is to have credible conversations like I'm having with you.

MG: Just finally, we've been talking to people, the parents in the city, and they're really scared about what's happening in Thunder Bay. They talk about not wanting to raise kids here. They talk about wanting to leave with their kids. They talk about what their kids went through, that they thought things were fine and suddenly they faced a cliff edge. And they're now talking to us because their kids were victims of this crisis. What do you say to people who are frightened by what's happening here in Thunder Bay right now?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I think it's, I think it's a it's a real wakeup call for all of us. I mean, I'm a parent of two boys with varying challenges in their lives and it is terrifying to raise children in a culture where substance use is glorified, where we come from, a culture where it was really nothing to have a few beers and hop on a snow machine or drive your boat across the lake. And so I would say to parents that it's really important that we continue to talk about this in a pragmatic way. Kids need to know more than just the just say no message. And many parents are afraid to have the conversation about substance use in a way that actually uses harm reduction. You know, I used to say to my children, you'll never be in trouble if you followed me from a party and you need a ride or your friend is struggling or somebody is overdosing, you'll never be in trouble for asking me questions about drugs. You'll never be in trouble for having a conversation around substance use. You know, if someone in your group, that is exhibiting strange symptoms, be on the safe side and call somebody. It's really important that we have these conversations with our kids because the tendency is to say, I don't want to talk about that. It's too scary. It's too scary. And the biggest response that many parents still have is just don't do that. Don't hang around with those kids. Don't do that. Don't get engaged. Look what's happening to your friends, so and so. And all of that is natural. It's such a natural response. But the safer thing is to actually say you may or may not be tempted to do this. You may or may not be doing this, but these are the things that you need to know to keep yourself safer. Denial is a powerful thing. It doesn't just happen to substances as it happens to families. And nobody really wants necessarily to be in that situation. So this is a broader conversation and breaking down stigma certainly will help.

MG: What is giving you optimism? Because there's a lot of weight to this conversation. And I mean, the numbers are bad. I mean, last year was a terrible year. The expectation is that this year will be worse when it comes to people dying, particularly of opioid related overdoses. So where's the optimism for you, as somebody who's from the city, back in the city, where is the really important role?

PATTY HAJDU: What gives me optimism is organizations like this that believe in a harm reduction model, that believe in the value of everybody's life. What gives me optimism is Vancouver's numbers slightly going down. You know, we're starting to see it and it's very early days. I would be very hesitant to say this is a trend, but the numbers are slightly down for overdoses in Vancouver. That's really great. And that's a testament to their persistence in leading the way. Vancouver has led the way. BC has led the way for Canada for a very long time, often in hugely public fights with the previous federal government that would not banned in terms of the tools they needed that they knew they needed. I think what gives me optimism is the work that's been happening and been happening in mental health. So the more people can talk about depression and anxiety, for example, the less stigmatizing it is for people, politicians even to come out and say, I've had to take a few months off because I'm battling depression. That would have it unheard of five years ago. We need to have those same conversations around substance use. So I think there is hope. We have to carry on, though, and we have to be brave enough as politicians, as leaders, as journalists to have these conversations and a far deeper way than we've been having in the past several years.

MG: I appreciate you being here and talking with us this morning. Thanks.

PATTY HAJDU: Thanks very much.

MG: Patty Hajdu do is the federal minister of health and the MP for Thunder Bay Superior North? I spoke with her in Thunder Bay. If you missed any part of our series on what's happening in Thunder Bay's story that's happening across this country when it comes to the overdose crisis, you can catch up on the Web site, documentaries, interviews, photographs. It's all there at cbc.ca/thecurrent. We've had a lot of reaction to this series. It's an issue, as I say, that is close to so many people. We would love to hear from you. You can reach us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC or go to the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link.

[Music]

MG: Well, that's our program for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q and guest host Angeline Tetteh-Wayoe. We will end our program where we started with a tragedy that has rocked this country and the Iranian Canadian community in particular. 19 old Kimia Pourshaban Oshibi is preparing to go back to Iran to bring home the bodies of her parents. Firouzeh Madani and NAder Pourshaban Oshibi were both on the Ukrainian airlines flight that crashed outside of Tehran, Iran. They were doctors. And had been living in Canada for seven years. Kimia had been on vacation in Iran with her parents visiting family. But she came home early because she had to get back to school at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, British Columbia. Her reflections end our show today, along with a Persian mourning song performed by the Iranian artist Vigen. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

Passing away is a part of life, and that happens in different ways, and even if it was because of political reasons or if it was because of technical difficulties, either way, you know, it happens to people. War happens to people. And I don't think the fact that it is a civil war or the fact that's a car crash makes the death any worse or any better. In Persian culture we have a saying that says we're from God and we all go back to God and we talk about the fact that God is made of the earth and the earth is to God and you're all from Earth and we go back to earth. So we think it's important that the soul has left the body. The body also follows it. So this is the reason we bury the body, unlike other cultures. We don't create or use other forms of burial, but we think it's important because Canada was a place that my parents respected and we like that to continue.

[Song by Vigen]

Thursday, January 9, 2020 Full Transcrip

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