U.S. killing of Iranian general could lead to 'snowballing' of events in the region: expert

Guests: Bessma Momani, Ammar Ali, Kaveh Shahrooz

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[Foreign speech] Wo all of you proud and patient Iranian people, and all of you noble fighters and lovers of your people, we offer our condolences.

LL: That is Iranian state TV offering condolences to the nation. An attack that killed seven people at Baghdad's airport included General Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran's elite Kurds force. Ammar Ali is a freelance reporter and he joins us from Baghdad now. Hello.

AMMAR ALI: Hello. How are you?

LAURA LYNCH: I'm fine, thank you. Can you give me some sense of what the scene is like in Baghdad today?

AMMAR ALI: The scene right now in Baghdad or in general in Iraq, it's really confusing about what's going on. 40 percent of the Iraqi people right now they are happy for killing Soleimani and Abu Mahdi and the rest of the people who got killed in this airstrike. The rest of the Iraqis, they are very sad and confusing and they start threating this morning to do the necessary rebound or the re-answer to this airstrike on the American soldiers who are stations in Iraq.

LL: How is the government of Iraq responding? Has it said anything?

AMMAR ALI: Yes, they did send a statement this morning and they were they were saying this airstrike. It was in vaulting off an Iraqi constitution. And they should not do that.

LL: And what are you hearing from Iran today? What is Iran saying? Is there any sense of what Iran might do?

AMMAR ALI: Iran, as you know, Iran have their tools in Iraq as they know there is some militias backed by Iran in Iraq and those militia started threatening this morning by answering for the death obsolete for Soleimani and Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis. So they did say we will answer to this airstrike on the American soldiers who stations in Iraq.

LL: Supporters of Iranian militias had actually stormed the U.S. embassy in Baghdad earlier this week and then backed away yesterday. Is there anything happening at the U.S. embassy right now at that?

AMMAR ALI: At the moment, nothing happened. That is I think there was a joint call from the Iraqi forces and the coalition forces in Iraq requesting that Iraqi special forces, the one trained by that American special forces, to surround the embassy in Baghdad. So they will keep the protesters away from the embassy.

LL: Can you tell us can you tell us who was general Qassem Soleimani? How is he seen in both Iran and in Iraq?

AMMAR ALI: Two prospective of this scene. There is some perspective, they say Qassem Soelimani's the one who killed all the civilians who brought this. Those were the one who is still right now in Al Ahrar [unintelligible], the treats. And there is another perspective from the Iraqi people saying Qassem Soleimani he was the hero and he was the one who was protecting the country from the fights against ISIS.

LL: So can you tell us what you're watching for their next.

AMMAR ALI: There is a new player from Iran is warming up right now to come to the land of Iraq, to the Iraqi soil, because, as you know, there is lot of interest from Iran to Iraq. And right now that situation, it confusing because you don't know what's going to happen in the next few days. Those Shiite backed militias in Iraq, they are very heavy with weapons. And that dimension there is a U.S. Army in Iraq. People here in Iraq, they just don't want the fight inside Iraq. So according to the political views or opinions, it's still unknown because Qassem Soleimani will be shipping to his country, to Iran, tonight. They just waiting for the approval from the messy foreign affairs. Abu Mahdi al Muhandis's funeral will start tomorrow. And after that, today, the death threat starts very wild on social media between all the leaders for backing militias from Iran. And it's still unexpected to see what's going to happen in the next few days.

LL: All right. Ammar Ali thank you very much for talking to us.

AMMAR ALI: You are more than welcome.

LL: Amar Ali is a freelance reporter in Baghdad. For more on how this may affect the stability of the region, I'm joined by two guests. Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. She's in Waterloo, Ontario. And Kaveh Shahrooz is a senior fellow with the Macdonald Laurier Institute's Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad. He is in our Toronto studio. Hello to you both.

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Good to be with you Laura.

LL: Kaveh, let me start with you. What is your initial reaction to the killing?

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Well, first of all, it caught me by surprise. I think it caught everybody by surprise. I think lots of people thought of Soleimani as kind of an untouchable military commander. So, you know, I was I was actually amazed at the ability of U.S. intelligence to find out where he wasn't to attack him. I, personally, felt a sense of relief. I mean, I've followed Soleimani on his career with some interests over the years. And I know that he's had a role in mass murder in Syria. He's played a very nefarious role in Iraq, in Lebanon. And certainly the Revolutionary Guards that he was a part of or a really corrupt and violent force in Iran. So I was happy about that. But I think I share a sense of worry and trepidation with many others because it's hard to know what's to come.

LL: Bessma, what was your first reaction when you heard the news?

BESSMA MOMANI: Similar to Kaveh, but I would say that I think many of us had always wondered if the Americans could take out such a high profile leader. And so many times apparently the Americans were close or actually in many cases decided not to take him out, according to some insiders, because of what they would fear might be the wrath of what to come after that. But I think he's a significant figure. I think it's really hard to just hear his name to those, who don't know the region, and just think he's someone they probably never heard of. But for many of us who do follow the region, we know his footprint is indeed throughout many of the hotspots and certainly I think I agree with cover, has a lot of blood on his hands and has been involved in much of, I think, the destruction that we see throughout the region. But at the same time, too many hardliners inside Iran and even outside the country, in places like Iraq and others where really they buy into this kind of revolutionary zeal, there is a hero, you know, a very important figure, almost at a spiritual level that has been assassinated. And so this is really going to just, I think, unleash the very worst of many actors in the entire region.

LL: And of course, we are already seeing huge rallies on the streets of Tehran and other cities in Iran covered. Kaveh, why has his death caused such a strong reaction?

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Well, I think the crowds that you see marching in Iran or, you know, supporters of the Iranian regime, the Iranian regime is not a very popular one, but it's not without some pockets of support. And basically, every dictatorship can on occasion rally the troops and get some people out. I think the reason why you see these crowds is the pro Iranian regime crowds is because really when it was a pivotal figure, it was a critical figure for the Iranian government. He was you know, I made this point earlier, to my mind, he was a moral monster. But by all accounts, he was a very good military strategist. He was excellent in what he did and he managed to portray some of his actions along nationalist lines, saying that he was protecting Iran from outside forces. And I think that's probably the reason why you see this kind of outpouring of emotion.

LL: Bessma United States Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is saying today that that the risk of doing nothing was enormous that they disrupted an imminent attack. Do you accept that that was true? Why was he such an important target for the United States?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, the Americans are claiming that sort of money was up to planning an attack on U.S. forces inside Iraq, and that may have been the case. But, you know, I think history will tell, of course, how this all unleashes. And I think you can hear from both of us, we're very worried about what's going to come next in terms of the reaction of all of these proxy forces throughout the region, the Iranian government, of course. And I think we are looking at a potential snowballing of a number of events throughout the region that you just can't dial back. And so there is going to be, I think, a lot of celebration, privately and particularly in many Middle East countries where including Iran, of course, where the IRGC and Soleiman has, you know, been an absolute disaster and again, has had so much blood on his hands. But the unleashing of events that is before us, I think, is something no one knows. And history will tell whether or not this was a necessary move.

LL: Well, we know, Kaveh, that Iran is threatening retaliation. What form do you think that could take?

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: So Iran is not without certain options. I mean, as Bessma noted, it has proxy forces throughout the region. So we can certainly get its proxy forces to carry out some, you know, violent acts. It could attack Americans or foreigners, not necessarily even Americans throughout the region or elsewhere in the world, frankly, because I mean, the Quds Force, that Soleimani headed up, it had tried to carry out actions in places outside the region. Iran has a particularly strong cyber army where it tries to disrupt Internet activities around the world. They can certainly do that. They can try to attack U.S. embassies and U.S. diplomats around the world. So it's not without options. I would say and I certainly understand the worry that's out there, but I think what you need to understand about the Iranian regime is, first and foremost, it's interested in self-preservation. You know, it talks about being a religious government and ideological. But at the end of the day, the clerics that run the country and the IRGC are interested in preserving their power. And I think they will probably retaliate, but they are also concerned about not letting this get out of hand. I think they've realized now that Trump and his administration mean business and that the Iranians can cross certain lines because they will meet a rather swift and vicious response.

LL: Well, there are those who are criticizing the Trump administration for exercising this this attack, what some are calling an assassination, saying it's reckless. I gather you don't agree with that.

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Well, I mean, as I as I've mentioned several times, I think so they maybe had a lot of blood on this on his hands. And I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he was planning other attacks. I see it as merely pre-emption. And I think that his killing probably prevented a lot of other murders around the region.

LL: Bessma, what do you think?

BESSMA MOMANI: I don't know. I mean, it's really, again, for the money. I'm certainly not shedding a tear for his death. But again, I think I understand where many people who want due process, who are afraid of what this might unleash are going to be very hesitant to be supportive of the action. Again, this is, I think, no judgment on Soleiman, his character who we all know, as I said, it has so much blood on his hands but the reality is that this could unleash, I think, an enormous number of events in a way that we can't control again. And the Iranians are really the masters of being able to hit out at soft targets, use their proxy forces to get at different military installations and civilian areas. I mean, know, we're mindful of the fact that we have troops in Baghdad, in Iraq ourselves, Canada. That is not nothing. And as a commander. Canada also has a commander who leads the NATO mission in Iraq. So, you know, we are also have to be worried about what this means for our troops, for our diplomatic personnel, and certainly for commercial interests in the region. I mean, the ramifications of this may be enormous. I agree that Iran tends not to want to hit directly on U.S. soil. I mean, there are incidences of them plotting attacks against the Saudi ambassador in the United States, but it has generally refrained from that kind of all out hot war. And it's areas like Iraq and the Iraqis who are really going to suffer because it will now be the site of a proxy conflict between Iran and the United States. And I think the same will be of Lebanon and I think Syria, there's less potential there only because the Americans are not super active in Syria and it doesn't have the same kind of visible kind of attack that it would have in other areas. But that's the kind of snowballing of a number of events. But again, you just can't put the genie back in the bottle. And so will this be a moment to celebrate? Again, this is all of us probably not shedding a tear for Solomonic as he is I think a awful person and again, has lots of blood on his hands. But the unleashing of all of these events is going to be, I think, an enormous challenge for all of us in the next coming days and months, maybe years.

LL: Okay, let's look in the neighbourhood a little bit more than what role, Kaveh, do you think Iraq is going to play in the next little while? And also Israel, which is an important player in the region right now.

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Right. I think the Israelis are certainly happy about this. I mean, I think from what I've read they had a plans long in the making about taking out Soleiman. So they're probably very thankful. The Iraqis certainly think, you know, the journalists that you had at the top of the segments, you know, he was talking about the fact that a lot of Iraqis are celebrating today. You know, in the past month, there have been a lot of protests in Iraq with the ordinary Iraqi citizens saying that they want Iran out of their affairs. And I think Soleiman, it was really the key figure in getting involved in Iraqi affairs and making Iraq basically a colony of Iran. So I think, you know, Iraqi politicians, if they're smart, they will use this as an opportunity to basically kick the Iranians out in the search, their own independence.

LL: Bessma, same to you. What roles will Israel and Iraq now play in in terms of the Iraqi government?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I think actually the reverse might happen in the case of Iraq. I agree that there are definitely people celebrating. In fact, we saw people go out in Tahrir Square and in Baghdad celebrating his death and many people will be happy in Iraq. But there will be many others who do see so many as a hero because he did lead certain forces that fought ISIS in the north of the country. But more importantly, many of them are quite literally Iranian backed militias inside the country. And I think the political pressure on Iraq will be frankly, particularly domestically, will be to actually ask the Americans to leave. And that may include us, as you know, again, a NATO ally of the United States. This was seen for Iraqi politicians, as you know, basically the Americans going too far and using their country as a site of a proxy. And they are very afraid of being sucked into the regional battle between the Iranians and the Americans. So I fear it might actually make the long term stability. And what we all want to see, which is, you know, Iraq become a more pro-Western country, frankly. You know, the opposite might happen.

LL: It's clear, Bessma, the pretty clear that that the Canadian government didn't know anything about this attack being carried out. What do you think Canada's response should be?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, preserve Canadians. And I mean, Canadian assets and Canadian forces inside the country is our number one. I think, you know, response, it's going to have to be our number one priority. But I think it's going to be difficult for Canada to come out publicly in support of this. It is an extra judicial killing. And there are a lot of people who I think are going to be pointing out that this was, you know, not done to the standards of international law, although the Americans will argue that, you know, by designating him a terrorist, by American law, that really just frankly made him a legitimate target. Nevertheless, there's going to be a lot of questions about procedures and laws. I can see where many may not feel that Soleimani deserves the right to have international law being used in defence of him, certainly because he's done everything to undermine all liberal values of human rights throughout the region. But nevertheless, I think Canada is in a tough spot and really needs to just focus on making sure its troops and its assets and Canadians who are there are actually safe.

LL: Kaveh.

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: So I agree with much of that. I think Canada's first priority should be ensuring that our citizens and our soldiers are protected. Longer term, though, I mean, this is a point that I've made many times in this context and others. Canada and the Western world ought to be thinking about how to remove the Iranian regime from power. Qassem Soleimani is out. And I think overall I would argue that's a good thing. But somebody else has already been named in his place and it will probably be the person. I don't know him well, but I suspect he will be equally murderous and equally malevolent. And this problem will not be solved so long as the Iranian theocracy holds power. I think Canada and the West ought to be thinking about how to change this regime and replace it with a democratic one.

LL: So what are you watching for next, Kaveh?

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: I think the Iranian reaction certainly in terms of whether or not they're going to carry out any attacks. And I'd be curious to know, you know, when President Trump speaks about this next, how he justifies this and what the internal battle in the United States will be among the among the two parties as sort of how they understand this killing.

LL: All right. Bessma, what are you looking for next?

BESSMA MOMANI: Yes, I agree. I'm kind of looking at what's going to happen in Washington, because I think this is an election year. We're seeing a number of Democrats, you know, trying to square this altogether. What's the legitimate reason for this is going to be a question of much debate. Trump, you know, is using a very old authorization of the use of military force to legitimize this. Again, lots of procedural legal issues. International lawyers are going to be very worried. And I think many people in the region are going to be worried about how Iran lashes out on whether its soft targets, commercial interests and all things that may be perceived to be American inspired. And that, you know, is unfortunately a very long list of places and people. And so it's a dangerous time in the region, for sure.

LL: My thanks to both of you for your insights today.

KAVEH SHAHROOZ: Thank you so much, Laura.

LL: Bessma Momani is professor of political science at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. She was in Waterloo, Ontario. Kaveh Shahrooz is a lawyer and human rights activist and senior fellow with the Macdonald Laurier Institute's Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad. He's also a former senior policy adviser on Human Rights to Global Affairs Canada. He was in our Toronto studio. The CBC News is next. Then tens of thousands of Australians are fleeing their homes as the country's catastrophic bushfire season continues. Conditions may only get worse. I'll speak with someone on the frontlines. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to The Current.

Australia fires, Happy endings

Guests: Vanessa Keenan, Mauro Gatti

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

LL: Still to come, why we need to embrace our brain glitches if we want to stay one step ahead of robot domination. But first, saving Australia.

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[People shouting]

VOICE 1: This is not fair. We're forgotten about down here. If we were Sydney, if we were North Coast, we would be flooded with donations. We've had emergency relief.

VOICE 2: We need more help.

VOICE 3: Morrison, you are out.

LL: And Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison was the target of the anger that you heard there. People living in New South Wales are frustrated and frightened by the spread of massive bushfires. Thousands are homeless. Many more are being forced to flee the area. Vanessa Keenan is a city councillor in Wagga Wagga, New South Wales. Hello.

VANESSA KEENAN: Hello, Laura.

LL: Can you tell me what your day's been like today?

VANESSA KEENAN: It's been pretty frantic. Well, we are in the midst of a bushfire emergency, and I am by myself and my family were impacted on Tuesday where our farm was incinerated and we managed to save the house, but everything else is gone. The vineyard and all the pasture and the like. But the event isn't over yet. And tomorrow looks like it's going to be a catastrophic day where the fire that impacted on us will merge with another fire and become a mega fire. And from there, that will be around the [unintelligible] area that the farm is in. So we really are expecting the potential for ember attack there, as well as a property that I own in Tumbarumba a while down the road.

LL: I'm so sorry for what you've lost already. How is your family coping with all of this?

VANESSA KEENAN: We're exhausted, but we're together, which is great. Luckily, being the Christmas break, those that live in other parts of the country were already in the region. So they have stayed on. And we're all getting together at our hometown Aubrey, which is about three hours north of Melbourne and still very close to the fire. It's quite smokey today as well.

LL: I was going to ask you, what does it look and smell like outside your door today?

VANESSA KEENAN: It's pretty bad. It was rated with the equality index is being hazardous. I think it was rated [unintelligible], which is five times the rate. This is in Aubery where we are. So we're not directly impacted here, but my throat and lungs are still sore from me. I've been also having a fair bit of trouble today. Whenever we've had to go outside as well, it's pretty bad. And a lot of people were suffering from the effects.

LL: Now you are, as I said, a councillor in the city of Wagga Wagga. How are people in your community doing?

VANESSA KEENAN: Wagga itself is safe and is not under any threat, where as a city we're about an hour or 45 minutes drive away from one of those major fires. We are acting as an evacuation point, gathering point for people. And also as a council, we're providing a lot of resources for those neighbouring councils that are that are being impacted at the moment.

LL: So the area where you really suffer the damage was outside of the city on that farm, as you mentioned. Tell me what happened.

VANESSA KEENAN: So my mom and her partner on a farm, her partner runs a [unintelligible] and cattle on it. We've been there for Christmas. All the rest of the family had left after just before New Year's Eve. And I was planning to leave that morning. But the conditions really deteriorated quite quickly. So we received a call about 6:00 a.m. from a family member who was working in the Rural Fire Service control room overnight. And he rang us and said it was coming for us. So we then spent the next couple of hours doing some preparations. We already were doing preparations in terms of in terms of getting the area as well as possible and certainly being aware that it was the potential to impact it. Within a couple of hours, things were very dire. It was, the fire, was a long time away, a long distance away, but it moved very rapidly there. There were ember attacks. I don't know how many kilometres, five, 10 kilometres in advance of the fire that lit up the neighbours' property. And then within a matter of minutes was where we were. And we took shelter in a bunker that day that my mon's partner built over the last few years and sat through the first fire front. And when we heard that it was the weather kind of died down at 5:00, we went and had another look there. And within a matter of 16, 20 minutes, we managed to refuel the diesel pump that was powering the sprinklers in the raingun, which is keeping the house wet. And shortly after that, Dave and I was standing at the gate and we saw, we heard the most thunderous roar. We saw the pine plantation next door erupt in flames with crowning 120, 130 feet above the height of the pines. And we heard this enormous roar. We couldn't see where it was. And all of a sudden it just it peaked over the top of the ridge, was surrounded by national park. So we always knew that if anyone was there when there was a fire, that there would be no way out. So, yes. And that was really just absolutely unbelievable. And like people say who have experienced this, it's like a freight train. The sound and the feeling plummet. And Dave turned to me and said, don't tell your mother. So we turned around and went into the bunker and spent more time in there. It was never expected that to ride out a fire, that it would be more than 15 minutes, up to an hour. In total we spent three hours in there.

LL: Who was in this bunker?

VANESSA KEENAN: Myself, my mom and her partner and their two dogs. So we were in there for just over three hours.

LL: Sounds frightening. I mean, when I think of a bunker that people build it usually to withstand things like tornadoes. This bunker was actually built for surviving fires?

VANESSA KEENAN: Yes, it was. And as I said, it's the location of where the farm is. It's surrounded by natural reserve and [unintelligible] National Park. It's quite remote. And even for Australian standards and really, it's saved not only the houses, but also saved our lives.

LL: You wrote a letter to the deputy prime minister, Michael McCormack, about what happened to you. Would you mind reading a little bit of that for us?

VANESSA KEENAN: Yes, sure. It was on this day, that evening, I managed to get back to Wagga and the morning after I woke up and was a bit teary. And so I decided to put pen to paper. He's the deputy prime minister of Australia, as well as our federal MP for the city of Wagga in that region. So that's why I wrote to him: Dear Michael McCormack. Did you have a nice Christmas break? I spent mine on the farm with family. Thankfully, most of the mass, though, keeps ranging in age from 15 to just 18 months were safer elsewhere. You may find it odd that I thought of you a lot and I wanted to let you know. When I heard from family working the command centre that the fire was coming straight for us, I thought of you. As I gathered what I could of my mom's precious belongings, I thought of you. When I first saw the flames on the neighbor's property and raced back to let the others know he had revived, I thought of you. And then it pretty much goes on and explains what I've said to you. And finishing off with when we emerged after three hours to an incinerator landscape dotted with injured and dead animals, I thought of you. Now as we scramble to organize emergency fodder and bikes for the weekend's weather, I think of you. When I keep feeling my water bottle to ease my sore throat and lungs, I think of you. When I hugged my family today, who for over 24 hours thought we were lost, I'm thinking of you. Did you think of us? Did you think about all the devastated communities that will be impacted by your lack of action or even acknowledgement of climate change? Will you think of us now? What will it take to get your attention? I have tears in my eyes writing this letter to you. I'm desperate. The whole country is desperate. Now is the time. Please.

LL: Has he responded to you?

VANESSA KEENAN: No, he hasn't. In saying that, we are in a state of emergency at the moment. I'm not expecting a prompt reply. I do know him and I'm sure that if I don't get a formal reply, I'm sure we will have a conversation at some stage. But I really feel that as being a counsellor, city counsellor, I've got- I'm in a position of privilege and I have a platform. It's only little one, but I have a platform that most people don't have. And I think that it was important that I shared my experience not only with him but publicly with him, so that others knew the impact and knew that he was made aware of just one story. And we were very, very lucky compared to so many other people and to so many other people who will have experiences that will change our lives forever tomorrow with this weather front coming through.

LL: It's clear that you are frustrated with the governments and your MPs, the deputy prime minister's position on climate change, that they are not doing enough. As far as you're concerned, do you think that these fires will change minds?

VANESSA KEENAN: I hope so, because if they don't, what will you know? We've got with the numbers of people being killed is rising. In Australia, I think that we were very behind in this conversation around accepting climate change. It's still a very divided or divisive conversation, and we really need to move beyond that. This is unprecedented. So this year there is desperation.

LL: Vanessa, all I can say is please take care of yourself over the coming days and weeks. And thank you for talking to us.

VANESSA KEENAN: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Laura.

LL: Vanessa Keenan is a city councillor in Wagga Wagga in New South Wales.

[Music]

LL: And you're listening to the current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. I'm Laura Lynch.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Under constant threat of climate change, the coral reef population around the world is dwindling. But a researcher with the University of Hawaii says Coral, found in Kane'ohe Bay, provides a glimmer of hope and a sign of resilience. Kindergartner Maury Belanger is the first deaf student to ever attend Dayton Consolidated School as soon as staff learned that she'd be a student. They made it a goal to teach everyone the proper communication technique.

CHILD: With sign language.

VOICE 1: Post has launched what it calls Europe's first free personal address and mail collection service for the homeless and people in temporary accommodation. Charities have praised the initiative, saying it will have an immediate positive impact on the lives of those without a permanent home.

LL: So we are changing gears here because some news stories from 2019 could be very upsetting. But there were others that made a difference in a different way. In a year where a lot of the news stories were grim, here were some of the more positive tone. Good news is something my next guest thinks we could use more of in 2020. Mauro Gatti is an illustrator and designer. He's also the creator of an Instagram account called the Happy Broadcast and that's where you'll find his illustrations of all the good news that's fit to publish. Mauro Gatti is in Los Angeles. Hello.

MAURO GATTI: Hey. Hi. How are you doing?

LL: Fine, thanks. What got you started making illustrations of all these good news stories?

MAURO GATTI: So long story short, I suffer from anxiety and I realize that all the, you know, fear mongering, clique baiting headlines were just making me more anxious, you know, they were just making my condition worse. So one day, 2018-2019, I just decided to use my only talent, which is why my I'm a creative person to spread some positivity and highlight the good things happening in the world. So the day that this project was born and I call it like a counter hate and fear culture project, you know, that features my weekly illustrated positive news. And I call them anxiety free news.

LL: Okay. So you went hunting for it. How did you decide what kinds of stories to feature on your Instagram account?

MAURO GATTI: So I try to find something like news that appeal to an international audience. So I usually don't feature local positive news, although I love them. I try to try like positive news to talk about, you know, climate change, science education, animal, human rights, because like the happy broadcast audience is like pretty international. So I just asked people to tell me what country they're from. So people come from like 120 countries from around the world. So it's pretty interesting.

LL: You're not just looking for stuff that warms your heart, though, right? There's more to it than that.

MAURO GATTI: Yes, absolutely. One of the thing that that is very important to me is while I report only good news. So my goal is not to create like a false sense of complacency. I don't want people to just feed on the happy broadcast and think that everything is fine, because one of the things to consider is that as humans, we are facing big challenges, you know, right now. And there is no guarantee that we will overcome them. But people are scared because they think that their individual contribution may not be enough. So the goal of the Happy Broadcast is to create the like a place to celebrate and get inspire by the millions of people that have shown us that we can all make a positive impact. And, you know, one little action can have an amazing effect.

LL: It also, I guess, helps with another aspect of this that has bothered you and that is sort of the online growth of hate.

MAURO GATTI: Yes, that's another thing. So the happy broadcast is not the place, you know, where followers come there to drop a light on a post, feel good and move on. It's a place where people engage in discussions that are most of the time, I would say 90 percent of the time, constructive discussions on topics that, you know, affect everybody. They look like cyberbullying, anxiety, LGBTQ rights. And sometimes these discussion start is like little flame, but it's incredible how the community put out those flames with kindness and with the goal of finding like a like a common ground, a compromise.

LL: That's quite an antidote to all the hate that you see online these days. That must really be warming to your heart.

MAURO GATTI: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, it takes a lot of time. I mean, I have to be honest, you know, it's not an easy task considering all of these is like pro bono, but it has affected me in the best way possible, you know? I don't feel like that this is a waste of time and I could make money in other ways. I just feel like that, of course, I'm doing these for all the followers, all the people in the world. But, you know, I have also, to be honest and say that this is also for me.

LL: So let's talk then about some of your favourites from 2019. What are some of the stories that stand out for you?

MAURO GATTI: So I'll talk about like five new stories that I love because each one of them represents the value that I tried to find in the news that I hand pick. So the first one is about a newspaper in Japan that is made out of recycled paper and seeds. So once you finish reading it, you can just tear it into small pieces you planted at the end like flowers will bloom.

LL: What a great idea.

MAURO GATTI: And this is credible. And the goal here is that if we put our minds to it, we can find, you know, objects and things that we use every day and find a solution to make them more sustainable. You know, so this is a great example on how like a newspaper, which is something that we read every day, can have a second life, basically. So the other one and these talks about how an individual action can have like such a positive effect on the planet. So there is a man in India that decided to plant a tree every day and in 35 years he created like a forest larger than Central Park in New York. And this is, again, to tell people that start doing something. Do not worry about how things are bad and people say that the world is falling apart and there is no way back. If every one of us started doing something, things will happen, change will happen.

LL: The ripple effect, as you were saying. What else?

MAURO GATTI: Yes. Another great one is in India. They created the first of a kind, it's called garbage cafe. So you can bring like plastic trash to the cafe and they're going to give you a meal. And this is, again, for me, it's like such a clever solution for two issues, one is like hunger and the other one is like plastic waste.

LL: And you have two more?

MAURO GATTI: Yes. The other one is Sweden, and I've learned, like many other countries, rolled out an amazing initiative. So whenever you go to the blood bank and you donate blood there, once your blood gets used and saves the life, you get a text message.

LL: I love that.

MAURO GATTI: This to me is a great way to incentivize people to do something good. You know, it's like you just donate blood and you got this gratification, this sense of like achievement, you know, achieving something by getting a text message.

LL: Because I give blood and I feel good when I do it. But then after I leave, I said I'm done for four until the next time. So this, I think is a great idea.

MAURO GATTI: Yes, it is. It is a good idea.

LL: And what's the last one?

MAURO GATTI: The last one is a Malawi female chief in Africa that once came to power where she annulled like over 1500 child marriages and made it illegal and sent all these young girls back to school. And this to me is very important for two reasons. So the first reason is like a woman in a country that is like predominantly, you know, ruled by male, patriarchy, did something incredible. So she went against something that was considered very orthodox and legal. And she said it's not right. You know, you cannot marry like a young girl. So she did everything she could and succeeded in doing that to all these like archaic law.

LL: Really important to highlight that. I'm wondering how curating all of these happy, positive stories has affected you in your real life when you're not on the Internet?

MAURO GATTI: I can honestly say that I'm a more positive person. I mean, I've never been like a negative person. I've been more of a realist person. But knowing all of these being happening in the world has given me more compassion and optimism. And my mental health is way better than he used to be.

LL: Mauro I wonder, we can't just pay attention to just good news, can we?

MAURO GATTI: No. Absolutely. Absolutely. One thing that I always say is that, again, by no means that Happy Broadcast should be the only source of news we consume. We have to report. We have to be aware of like issues in the world. It's just like finding a balance, having a news diet that is very balanced. So you have an intake of light problems that the issues that happen in the world. But you have to balance it with good stuff, things that gives you hope in the end, inspire you to do good.

LL: Well, I must thank you for highlighting the good things that are going on in this world. And I hope you have a very happy 2020. Happy New Year.

MAURO GATTI: Thank you so much. I wish you the same model.

LL: Gotti is an artist and the curator of the Happy Broadcast Instagram page. Coming up in our next half hour, embrace your scatterbrain. A neuroscientist says it will make you more creative and successful. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM.

Try this memory exercise — and find out what it reveals about creativity and the brain

Guest: Henning Beck.

KARIN MARLEY: Hello, Laura.

LL: Hi.

KARIN MARLEY: I have here a piece of paper for you.

LL: So this is our producer, Karin Marley, and she's just given me a piece of paper with a list of words on it. What do you want me to this?

KARIN MARLEY: Well, you might ask. So this is a little brain exercise we're gonna do on air. Listeners, you can do it, too. So listen carefully. Laura, could you read the list of words, please?

LL: Okay. Truck Street. Drive. Key. Garage. SUV, which I know isn't a word. Accelerate and steering wheel.

KARIN MARLEY: All right. There we go. I'll just grab that piece of work. Give it up and no peeking. I'm going to give this list to our guest.

LL: Okay. And I guess that means I can't look at it again. Why are you giving it to the guest?

KARIN MARLEY: So I will leave our guest to explain because it is his list. So I will duck out of here and let you guys get to it.

LL: All right. And he is neuroscientists Henning Beck. He's here in our Toronto studio. His new book is Scatter Brain: How the Mind's Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative and Successful. Hi.

HENNING BECK: Hi. Thanks for having me.

LL: Thanks for coming in. I'm a little afraid to find out how scattered my brain is. Should I be scared?

HENNING BECK: Not really. No.

LL: Okay. You tell me that. So. Okay. The list of words. What did you want? Me and people who are listening to do with the list?

HENNING BECK: Basically, just try to remember as many words as you can. I mean, it's that simple list. How many words you remember from it?

LL: Okay, some of it was easier because they were related. So truck. Drive. Key. SUV. Street?

HENNING BECK: Yeah, I think that's right. That's pretty good. You just looked at the list for a couple of seconds and you see, you don't remember everything. Usually you remember like 70 percent or so, but that's how the brain actually works. It defines what is important, what is not important.

LL: How do I rank?

HENNING BECK: You missed some other words, but yes, you did not remember grand or two or three words, but that's pretty good.

LL: You can tell me now or do you want me to remember them again later?

HENNING BECK: Yes, maybe.

LL: Yes. Okay, I won't get ahead of myself. So then that tells me that my brain isn't working what I would consider to be perfectly.

HENNING BECK: Yeah. It is not the case that you store and save information like on a flash drive in a computer and then you put information somewhere and then you can retrieve it when you're needed later. So it's more like the brain starts to organize all the incoming information. As you said, some words are related. So you formed some kind of related concept. And this is how we basically remember information. Memory is not located anywhere in the brain and is constructed all the time you remember it.

LL: All the time. It's working over and over. So then tell me, how flawed is the brain?

HENNING BECK: Well, the brain is does mistakes constantly all the time. The brain is everything but perfect. Many people require the brain to think perfectly, to avoid mistakes, to avoid errors. But this is not where the brain actually does. The brain comes up with new ideas, tries out, learns from failure, learns from mistakes. And we have so many different mistakes and flaws like we are distracted. As you just experienced, memory is not perfect. Right. But on the other hand, all of these flaws and mistakes have some kind of cognitive edge and have some kind of advantage.

LL: Okay. But compare it to artificial intelligence or a computer.

HENNING BECK: Well, artificial intelligence is designed to find patterns and correlations among huge amounts of data and huge amounts of information is organized or structured by these algorithms and tries to avoid mistakes, trying to find correlations as fast and efficient as possible. This is how we define intelligence, right? Intelligence, by definition, means that you find and follow the rules as fast as possible. It does not mean by definition to change rules, to break rules, to go places where nobody has ever been before, set up new rules. And this is why intelligence is not enough. And many, many people say, okay, artificial intelligence will take over eventually. This is never going to happen. You have to be able to break rules to push the human frontier to go places but nobody's ever been before. And this is more than just intelligence.

LL: So that means it's not a bad thing that we're generally not that fantastic at remembering lists.

HENNING BECK: I mean, of course, if you forget some things, that is not good, if you forget a birthday, for instance. But on the other hand, considered the alternative. If you would remember everything, it would take forever to find out what is important and not. It would take forever to remember, because you have so many information on your mind that need to be organized. That is very hard to prioritize them. And this is the reason why the brain filters out information when it's coming in.

LL: Okay, thank you for making me feel better.

HENNING BECK: Yes, that's my job.

LL: There is something else you wanted me to do with the list of words?

HENNING BECK: Yes. Just ask again. What? What words do you remember right now?

LL: Key. SUV. Drive. Street truck.

HENNING BECK: Yes. But some words you're missing.

LL: I don't remember you. I completely do not remember.

HENNING BECK: That's the case. And interesting if I ask you what of these words was originally on the list, car, seat or motorcycle?

LL: Oh. I don't know. Seat?

HENNING BECK: Yes. Good choice, but actually incorrect. None of these were on the original list.

LL: Oh that was a trick.

HENNING BECK: Yes it was a trick. Because if you ask people, if you give people these kind of lists and you ask people try to remember. People make up new births. Almost 80 percent claim that they saw words that never appeared on the original list. And this is how we create false memories. This is how you can trigger people to create false memories.

LL: OK. Would the word lists are pretty simple, but life is complex. How many of our memories are at least, what we think are memories are someone in accurate or, as you said, completely false or really made up.

HENNING BECK: I mean, every memory is incorrect in a way, because it's always created in the moment when you remember. Consider an orchestra. When you look at an orchestra from outside, you have no idea what music this orchestra is able to play. Just with the brain. When you look at the brain from outside, you have no idea what memories are inside this brain. In an orchestra, the music, the melody emerges when the musicians start to play with each other. It's how all the musicians play together. Same with the brain. It is how all these nerve cells interact in the very moment and create this kind of activity pattern, what you call a memory. And sometimes you highlight a specific image. Sometimes you highlight this specific word . Sometimes you make up new words just to fit in to this whole concept. In this case, it was about cars and driving and such. So it's easy to come up with a new word that you have never seen before.

LL: Is there ever a good time for an embellished memory? Well, I can think of lots of bad things. Like in the judicial system if somebody is recalling something. But is there ever a good time to have that?

HENNING BECK: Well, of course, this is a problem for eyewitnesses, for instance. On the other hand, this kind of thinking principle makes your adaptive. The same brain regions that are falsifying your memory, that is distorting your memory of the same brain regions that are able to ask what if questions, that come up with hypotheses, that imagine the future, that set up plants and make good ideas. It's the same principle. You invent new stuff or you falsify your memory or you can come up with a new solution nobody has ever thought of before. It's depending on the task you want to solve. If you want to remember everything perfectly, the brain is not super accurate. But if you want to create something new, the brain is the method of choice.

LL: I think Karin's going come back him because she's got another challenge for us. Karin, you got a pen, paper and a calculator and you've given us two squeaky toys. You're just having fun with me here, toying with me.

KARIN MARLEY: It's a metaphor. Exactly.

LL: Let's go on.

KARIN MARLEY: So I am going to give you a little not exactly fair question here. I have given you the paper and pencil. Henning has a good old fashioned calculator. One of those things that probably you haven't seen since high school.

HENNING BECK: I have never seen this before.

LL: Too young.

KARIN MARLEY: And I'm going to read you guys a maths puzzle. Whoever finishes first. You can just squeak your squeaky toy and we'll see how this plays out.

LL: Can I just say I was bad at maths in high school. That's why I'm a journalist. OK, go ahead.

KARIN MARLEY: And I'm waiting this against you. So the exercise. A pet store truck is driving along a city street when suddenly the back door pops open. 384 squeaky toys followed and 24 dogs start running down the street chasing them. If life were fair and these toys got distributed evenly, how many squeaky toys would each dog get?

LL: Got it. Well, that was unfair. It's 16, I think.

KARIN MARLEY: It is 16.

LL: I just want you to see what I wrote here. I just had three, cause I used the long division now.

KARIN MARLEY: As I said, it wasn't fair.

LL: It wasn't because the computers and the calculators are way faster. But Henning you say that even in maths, they're not a threat to our mental supremacy, which makes me feel odd given what just happened.

HENNING BECK: Well, you know, I'm faster because I have a calculator. But calculators just ask computers. I mean, they're are just dump. They're just as dumb as 50 years ago today. There are maybe dumb been a faster way, but it's not like they understand what they are actually doing. No calculator, no artificial intelligence, no computer is understanding what it's doing. We do that. I mean, you understood that there's something going on. And I understood as well. I type in some numbers into this calculator and then it's coming out with a solution. And I have to interpret it. And this is a difference between calculating and doing maths. I mean, calculation is pretty simple. It is just following the rules. Maths means thinking. Infrastructure's thinking in concepts, thinking in images. And this is how we understand stuff. It is not about finding the solution fastest, but it is how to interpret it. And this is what sets us apart from artificial intelligence calculators, a machine.

LL: That makes me feel better. I'm sure I would have come up with the right answer.

HENNING BECK: Sure. And contrary to a calculator, you know what it actually meas.

LL: Yes. Yes. Exactly. All right. Lucky me. Apparently, Karin has one brain exercise for me. No more toys. I bet you've got a short story.

KARIN MARLEY: I do. So I am just going to read you a little story about a man named Wyatt. Then we'll have a question for you at the end. So the young man named Wyatt grew up on a ranch at the edge of the plains. At a young age he joined the local line dancing club. His rifle collection is legendary. He played slide guitar. His favourite food is barbecued ribs and his favourite football team is the Dallas Cowboys. Last summer, he moved to Austin to pursue his career. Now an easy little comprehension quiz at the end of this. What city in Texas did Wyatt grow up?

LL: Austin?

KARIN MARLEY: Good guess. And I'll let Henning explain.

HENNING BECK: Well, you don't know, but you set up this concept of growing up in Austin. But you don't know exactly. You make up an interpretation right from the beginning. These kind of biases that you interpret or see things that are not actually there. I mean, Europe, of it is a trick question. I mean, you are triggered to think into this bias, but you come up with this solution because it's fitting your expectation. And this is what people constantly do. They give answers that fit into their expectation. And this is important because we are living in times where business models of the largest companies really use that kind of thinking to make money out of that, because we love correlations. We love thinking in our comfort zone. We love thinking what we believe. Actually, we want to be confirmed. And this is how all these apps and social media work.

LL: Is that a good thing?

HENNING BECK: Well, both. I mean, of course, it is important to us to have some kind of safety in your way of thinking your stereotypes in a way, because it's speeding up your thinking. You don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time. When you go into a kitchen, you know how a kitchen works, even if you have never been in this kitchen before. On the other hand, it is important that you provoked yourself from time to time, that you pushing yourself out of this comfort zone thinking, use some kind of media you're not used to, check out a website you're not going through regularly, have a chat with people you disagree with. This is important because this is really spicing up your ideas.

LL: We just wrapped up a federal election and there's been a lot of talk about how people vote emotionally instead of logically.

HENNING BECK: Yes. There is no single decision that is based purely on facts. Every decision is based first and foremost on emotion. And this is because the brain basically sets up the main framework in thinking is getting a reward or avoiding punishment. And then people make decisions very quickly. And interestingly, after they made the decision, they tried to justify them later.

LL: I got to ask you, just based on my own experiences, I voted in many elections and I fought long and hard about who I was going to vote for this time. And I'm not going to tell you who I voted for. But I like to think that I made a rational decision and I waited for a long time before I decided who I was going to vote for. How can you be sure that what I did wasn't a rational decision?

HENNING BECK: I mean, it's always kind of both, but I'm pretty sure that you had some kind of emotional sentiment. I mean, you say, okay, I like this argument. It's that you feel attached to one position more than to the other. And one thing that you can do to overcome this bias, of course, what you did take your time. When you force people to make a decision very fast, they rely more and more on emotion, of course. And on the other hand, if you don't know how to decide, this is very often the case. We call that psychology the over choice effect, that you have so many options that you're not able to pick one because there are so many possibilities. And if this is the case and then put some pressure onto yourself.

LL: I spoke recently to Zoltan Istvan. He's a former American presidential candidate for the Trans Humanist Party. He believes a robot leader would be better than a human one. Just listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, at some point we're going to create a machine that's better than the human brain. And that machine is going to be better at running the planet and running the world. Almost every single action that a human does, a machine can almost certainly do dramatically better. It's statistically better. And so when you talk about governing for the greatest good, a machine is going to have better algorithms and especially it's going to continue to prove overtime with less personality, idiosyncrasies and things like that. So you really have an opportunity here to maybe get what we can, you know, see as true leadership for the very first time and perhaps everyone's lifetime.

LL: What do you think of that?

LL: Well, there are a couple of things. First, of course, people love to be ruled by a machine. This is what we call them, psychology. The over trust effect you over trust machines more than human beings, because people say, okay, somebody has put some force into that and then they follow an immigration system and end up in the forest or wherever.

LL: Like G.P.S.

HENNING BECK: Yes, exactly. So, of course, people love that idea because we know that human beings do mistakes. So why not being will buy a machine? Well, there's one problem that is always underestimated in this discussion. And this is energy. We don't know where we get the energy to have that general artificial intelligence. Digital devices needs so many energy and it's increasing exponentially. And we know that in a couple of years we don't have the energy to power all that kind of systems.

LL: You're talking about just the electricity.

HENNING BECK: Yes, exactly. Consider rebuilding a brain. I mean, the brain is running on 20 watts. I mean, you need two pancakes, to run a brain for like two days. This is a pretty efficient system. And thinking about an artificial intelligence or a machine that can do everything, you cannot build so many power plants to to supply all these artificial intelligence, you need to make all these kind of decisions. And on the other hand, it is not only about making the most rational decision. It is also about leading people. And this is something different than telling people what to do. I remember a great quote. A boss says, go. Leader says, let's go. It is about motivating people and leading them. Way more important than just telling what to do.

LL: You don't ever see a time when AI will take over our jobs. Any jobs? I mean, they do some already, of course.

HENNING BECK: And every procedure where you can put the tech efficiency on it. This is what it's going to be replaced by these kind of machines. I don't know what's happening in 200 years, but I guarantee that in our lifetime we will not see these kind of systems taking over in terms of empathy and working together with others, presenting stuff, talking to each other. This is what I think people going to appreciate. I think people will pay for good service in the future. They don't pay for chat bots. They pay for good service. And on the other hand, having good ideas, of course, breaking the rules. This is important. Speaking about presidents, I remember a great quote by Abraham Lincoln who said, I don't like this man. I have to get to know him better. And this is what I call curiosity and try to feed that into a machine.

LL: But if you try to feed that into some of today's current political, you don't hear that from them either.

HENNING BECK: Good point.

LL: I mean, would it be a bad thing if a guy takes over jobs that require efficiency?

HENNING BECK: These are not human friendly jobs. Putting numbers into excel sheets, this is not what a human brain is made for. This is why we are having burnout. Why we having depressions throughout society and business lives. And for a reason, because we force human beings to think like a machine. And then we are surprised when a machine comes around the corner and makes it better and faster and more efficiently. I'm totally calling for let machines take over these kind of jobs and then let human beings do what they can do best; getting your ideas, working in teams, convincing other people. This is what's going to be important.

LL: So I get really hard on myself when I make mistakes and I'm wondering why it is important to know that our brains mistakes are good for us.

HENNING BECK: Well, first of all, it's kind of relieving. It's reducing the stress because I totally see what you mean. People hate mistakes all of the time, especially in Germany. You know, the German engineering; no mistake. Right. But on the other hand, engineering is also about coming up with good inventions and good ideas. And in a perfect world is the end of progress. Right. Because if everything is perfect, where should you proceed to? It is way more important to try out your stuff, fail, fall down and then standing up again. And this is the spirit we need to change the world. Of course, I'm not calling for to do mistakes all the time, but you have to come up with new ideas, without knowing before whether these ideas are good ones or bad ones, correct or incorrect. And this is what the brain is very well are doing that. We can come up with new stuff from that.

LL: Okay. Henning, it's my turn to test you. What were the first five words that I said at the very beginning of this interview?

HENNING BECK: I have no idea. But I remember how you smile. This is what I remember.

LL: Well, I'm just glad it's not only me. I mean, thank you so much. It was a great conversation.

HENNING BECK: Likewise. That was a lot of fun.

LL: It was a lot of fun. Do you want to keep your toy?

HENNING BECK: If you do that very often, this is going to be annoying.

LL: Oh, sure. Yes. Okay. For sure. Do you have any kids? You can give it to one of your kids?

HENNING BECK: Oh, I have a three year old neighbour. He is really inspiring when you write a book. He's really inspiring.

LL: Okay, Henning, thanks a lot.

HENNING BECK: Thanks a lot.

LL: Heading Beck is a neuroscientist and the author of Scatter Brain How the Minds Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative and Successful. We first aired that interview in October.

[Music]

LL: You're listening to The Current. I'm Laura Lynch. For most children who celebrate Christmas, the stream of gifts has all dried up, until next year, except in Italy, their lucky kids have one more night circled on the calendar, January 5th, and the arrival of La Bafana. She's a witch who brings presence on the eve of the epiphany, the day when the three wise men were said to have arrived with gifts for Jesus.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

VOICE 1: We used to have this poem that says in Italy [sings in Italian]. My name is Felomina Ventresca. I grew up in Italy. In English, it means the Befana comes at night with a big sac of gift. She bring gift like Santa Claus.

[Italian song]

VOICE 2: For me was when I was a kid was ideal finding new presents before going to school. My name is Corrado Paina, and I'm the executive director of the Italian Chamber of Commerce of Ontario.

VOICE 3: One of the things I like to do is I like to find folktales and retell them. I'm Tomiw Depaola. I'm a children's book illustrator and writer. Our Italian heritage is Calabrese, which is southern Italian. La Befana is a wonderful old lady who is cranky. And she sweeps. She just sweeps her house. She sweeps her walk. But one day, one night, she hears singing. And she looks out her window and she sees the star and down the road comes this procession of kings, camels and horses. And they tell her that they're on the way to find the Holy Child. And eventually she was asked by the Kings to follow them. But she didn't want to win the king's last as she thought about it and she said, 'oh, I should have followed them'. And so she started to look for Jesus. And she got some sweets, and she started to stop to knock on the doors and looking for children while she was looking for Jesus. And she started to give these sweets to the children. And then she started to run after the procession. And before you know it, she's flying through the air with her broom.

VOICE 2: Befana at one point resembles very much a which she carries a broom. She flies in the sky with a broom. I mean, La Befana becomes like Santa Claus and international, you know, hero, let's call it.

VOICE 3: And La Befana has never really found the Christ child. But she goes every epiphany, the 6th of January and the Feast of the Three Kings.

VOICE 2: So La Befana, in my city, Mulan is pretty mean because if the child is not being good, she will have as some coal, some candy coal, black.

VOICE 1: I remember in Italy, we used to hang the socks under the chimney and then we used to go to sleep and then we used to say , 'oh, maybe she's going to come now. Easy. Easy'. And then hearing if we used to head the noise and I remember my parents are like at midnight like toom toom toom, to be noisy. We gap in the morning and going see what. But the Befana was so good, always bring us candy and gift.

VOICE 2: It's really the last shore before the disaster of the opening of the school. So it's really the last day of freedom, let's say, and festivity for the children. Befana was. fun.

[Italian song]

LL: And that was Philomena Ventresca. Corrado Paina. And Tomie Depaola, I hope did that right. Reminiscing about La Bafana. Tomie Depaola's children's book, The Legend of Old Befana, has been rereleased this year. If you'd like to hear Tomie reading from the book, we are going to post an excerpt on our website. cbc.ca/thecurrent. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q where Tom Power speaks with Colson Whitehead about his new book, The Nickel Boys and the Man will be in this chair on Monday. Matt Galloway sits down with Tom to talk about his early career covering arts and culture, his love of music and what he hopes to bring to his new gig. And this is my last show as interim host of The Current. So I want to take a moment to say thank you, of course, to all the people I've worked with over the last four months here, putting this program together every day, they really are an extraordinarily hardworking, committed crew who pull off amazing radio feeds on a regular basis. And a quick special nod to our small early morning team that Gary Francis, Karin Marley and particularly Willy Bath. We do all of this with coffee and a smile and sometimes we even managed to have fun. Willy in particular has directed the show since its inception and he is such a steady hand. And you, the listeners, who've let me know in no uncertain terms what you think of what we do here. It's mostly been good kind words, sometimes not, but all revealing the passion you have for what we do. Now, it's Matt Galloway's turn. I can't wait to tune in on Monday. I'm Laura Lynch. Thank you for listening to The Current.

The Current Transcript for July 24, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

U.S. killing of Iranian general could lead to 'snowballing' of events in the region: expert

Australia fires, Happy endings

Try this memory exercise — and find out what it reveals about creativity and the brain

Full Transcript for January 3, 2020

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