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The Current Transcript for January 27, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We are continuing to be on track for receiving our full doses of vaccines, six million of doses from Pfizer and Moderna. We are extremely confident we will be able to have everyone vaccinated who wants it in Canada by September 2021.

MATT GALLOWAY: Canada is relying on those reassurances that the vaccines are indeed coming. But with a global race underway to get doses and Europe threatening to block vaccine exports, how secure is that supply line? In 30 minutes, the head of Moderna's Canadian operations is here to talk about delivery dates, new COVID variants and whether it's a good idea to delay a second dose to ensure as many people as possible get a shot. Also, this morning, Murray Sinclair has been called Canada's conscience from his time as the first Indigenous justice in Manitoba to the Senate, to his work leading the landmark Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Reconciliation is inevitable. You're always going to have a relationship with this country, with other people in this country. The question is, what kind of relationship do you want?

MATT GALLOWAY: As he gets set to leave the Red Chamber, Murray Sinclair is here in an hour to talk about the state of that relationship, his Senate colleague, Lynn Beyak, and the hard work of making reconciliation more than just a word. We begin, though, with the race to contain wildly contagious new strains of COVID and louder calls to restrict travel into and around this country. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

What new coronavirus variants mean for the trajectory of the pandemic in Canada

Guests: Charles Gardner, Catalina Lopez-Correa, Lauren Lapointe-Shaw

MATT GALLOWAY: Early on, scientists warned that this virus would mutate, bringing new challenges to ending the pandemic. Well, now, new COVID variants first detected in Britain and South Africa are here in Canada. Roberta Place in Barrie, Ontario, declared an outbreak on the 8th of January. The long-term care residence is still grappling with these variants. Dr. Charles Gardner is the medical officer of health for the Simcoe Muskoka District Health Unit. Doctor, good morning.

CHARLES GARDNER: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did you first suspect that you were dealing with one of these new variants of COVID-19?

CHARLES GARDNER: We became aware of just how rapidly this was spreading in the Roberta Place long-term care facility after a single weekend. So we declared the outbreak with a positive case on the 8th, the Friday. Then going through the weekend, we had over 50 cases emerge throughout the facility, all of its units, and certainly, that became very much an alarm to us. So we proceeded with making a request to Public Health Ontario to have the necessary testing done in order to determine if that's what we were dealing with.

MATT GALLOWAY: So it tore through Roberta House?

CHARLES GARDNER: It certainly has. It's got to the point now where almost all of the residents, just only two of the residents are not cases. We have a total of 127 of them that are... that are positive.

MATT GALLOWAY: And how many residents have died from this outbreak at Roberta Place?

CHARLES GARDNER: To date, we've had 46 deaths as of yesterday. That was an increase of six from the day before.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you have a sense as to how this variant got into Roberta place?

CHARLES GARDNER: Well, we don't know for sure. But there is a situation involving an individual who had travelled from out of country, who had some contact, household contact, with an individual who became part of the outbreak. And so that's certainly a prime possibility.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you say became part of the outbreak, is that somebody who had contact with someone who was working in Roberta Place, or was visiting to Roberta Place?

CHARLES GARDNER: One of the... One of the workers, in fact, had that contact, became a case. And we do have confirmation that the... that individual is one of the persons who had tested positive for the new variant. And the traveller has come back positive for a variant awaiting confirmation as to which one.

MATT GALLOWAY: So it just took that for this variant to end up in this long-term care facility. How many cases do you think are now outside of that? I mean, within the community, how many people outside the home have been infected?

CHARLES GARDNER: So far, we've got 85 individuals who are household contacts who have tested positive for COVID-19. And I'm often asked the question, you know, we've got a total of six associated with the facility that have tested positive for the variant. How many of those other cases would be due to the variant? I have no doubt that they're all due to the variant. We just don't have that laboratory confirmation. So at this point, we've got 85 that are household contacts outside of the facility that are also part of... part of this outbreak.

MATT GALLOWAY: But beyond that, how widespread do you think this is within the community?

CHARLES GARDNER: [clears throat] That is my prime concern. I think that it's a very real possibility that it's transmitting in the community now. It's always difficult to get ahead of the transmission. You see a delayed picture with the testing that you get. It can be delayed by a week or more, considering the incubation period. So I think it's safe to assume that... that... or it would be safer for us to assume that there's transmission happening in the community and for us to all take precaution accordingly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is the assumption, if it's in the community, that it perhaps has spread beyond the community? I mean, Barrie's just an hour north of Toronto. There are communities that are all around there as well. Is the assumption that... that if it's there, it... it's not everywhere, but it's certainly well, well beyond the community's limits?

CHARLES GARDNER: There is a lot of travel, certainly, a lot of people in Barrie travel to the GTA for their work. This is a destination on your way to cottage country. Now, at this time, there's less travel because of the lockdown, because of the stay-at-home orders. Certainly, in that regard, it's better timing. But I think it would be safer to assume that there's some transmission or at least that it's impending that there's transmission that would go beyond Barrie.

MATT GALLOWAY: What needs to happen now then to limit its spread?

CHARLES GARDNER: Well, we are taking a multipronged approach, and part of that is an attempt to slow down or contain this through aggressive case and contact management of the... of those involved, the cases that we know of. So that can help slow it down. But the broader strategy is working with the... with the municipality and the local police to raise awareness in the community that people really need to take to heart the stay-at-home order and to follow all of the provisions that we've been indicating they need to do, so the distancing, the handwashing, face-covering and isolation and seeking testing. So I think at this point, I'd like to simplify it down to stay at home unless you have an essential reason for going out.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you say to people who hear that, but they still... I mean, we're months into this, it's winter, people are thinking, well, if I just go north and pass through Barrie or pass through the community to a cottage or something like that, it's not that big of a deal. What would you say to those people?

CHARLES GARDNER: Well, I would say that in most instances, individuals would probably get away with it. But if we all behave that way, then it will actually spread and we need to be a team in this. Everybody being part of the solution to avoid that from happening. So I would be asking people that they need to actually abide by this stay-at-home order. It's actually enforceable. Here in Barrie, we're looking at raising awareness and looking at what can be done to more actively enforce it. But, of course, it goes beyond... beyond Barrie, beyond Simcoe Muskoka. I think that this is a broader message for us all. Travel at this time within the province can, unfortunately, help to spread COVID in general and new variants.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, I mean, the community has been called in some ways ground zero for these new variants. What's the impact been like on you? I mean, you're at the centre of this in some ways.

CHARLES GARDNER: This has been the most intense experience of my career. Certainly, the entire pandemic has been so that this is all the more so for me, for my staff, for the broad community that's responding to this outbreak, there are many agencies responding to this outbreak. There's an impact that is very broad, and I think it'll be probably sustained as well. I don't see this as something that ends quickly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Gardner, I appreciate your time. You've got a lot on your plate and very busy, so thank you for speaking with us this morning.

CHARLES GARDNER: My pleasure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Charles Gardiner, medical officer of health for the Simcoe Muskoka Health District. He was in Barrie, Ontario. Dr. Catalina Lopez-Correa is the executive director of the Canadian COVID Genomics Network. It's coordinating this country's efforts to determine the genetic sequence of viral samples and determine how widespread these variants are. Doctor, good morning to you.

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's your understanding as to when these variants arrived in this country?

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Well, we, with the Canadian COVID Genomics Network, has been working on the sequencing and the genetic analysis of the virus since April, since the creation of the network in April. And we started to get some knowledge about the virus and about the variant actually in September when it was first identified in the U.K. And then around mid-December, around 18, 19, December 18-19, we started to get some real red flags indicating that there was a high, higher transmission of this variant and the U.K. Was taking some measures in terms of controlling international travel. And that's when we started to put together a higher effort between the provincial labs, [indiscernible], the Canadian COVID Genomics Network and other partners to look for a strategy for Canada to detect those virus in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think we have a good handle on how widespread these variants are? I mean, in many ways, that's... that's what you're trying to do is... is through the genetic sequencing of this, figure out where the variance are. Do we have a sense as to how widespread the variants are in this country?

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Well, we are proactively looking for those cases. We actually changed in December our strategy to do sampling and prioritizing the samples that will be sequenced, getting priority to samples of individuals that were travelling. Samples of individuals that where we're in contact with others that travel. So we completely switch our sampling strategy to adapt to those changes in December, we're doing around five per cent sequencing around five perc ent of total reported cases, which is pretty much in line with the sequencing that is doing the United Kingdom. They are doing about six or seven per cent, and is much higher than the sequencing that's being done in the U.S., which is around point-three-per cent, less than one per cent. So we are, again, doing everything we can to use this genomic tools and the sequencing to assess and just determine how spread these variants are in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: How concerned are you about the spread of the virus... ah, the variants here?

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Well, we have seen how fast this virus was spreading in the U.K. They actually detected in December, the first... actually, September 2020, the first variant. And in three months, they were up to 70 per cent of all positive cases were just positive for these variant. So we... that's why we have all our efforts in terms of genomics to understand how fast this is spreading. We have already information about other countries, about 50 other countries that have reported those variants. So, yeah, it is a concern. They are actually called variants of concern because they... they are spreading faster. There is high transmission rate. And we have to really keep an eye on those.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can you keep up with this? I mean, if scientists can't determine the genetic sequence of every positive COVID case, but we know that these variants spread perhaps much quicker and much... to a greater population over a shorter period of time. Can you keep up in that sequencing?

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Well, we, as I say, you know, we are trying our best with the five per cent we think is the right number. We are trying to increase to have higher coverage. It is, you know, with the number of cases we have, it's difficult to keep up. It's difficult to have really the perfect number in terms of coverage. But we believe that with five per cent, we have already a good idea of what's happening. And we're also focussing on, as I say, on the prioritizing samples that are of suspicious. So looking for outbreaks, looking for geographical regions where there is a dramatic increase in case numbers. We're also looking at people that have been reinfected with the virus, see if there is the reinfection is close or associated with this new variant. We will be looking also potentially, that's not the case yet, but we will be looking if there is any case of individuals are getting infected after being vaccinated. And so all of this is part of our sampling strategy and our way to prioritize samples that will give us a better idea what's happening with those variants.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lopez-Correa, good to speak with you about this this morning. Thank you very much.

CATALINA LOPEZ-CORREA: Thanks to you. Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Catalina Lopez-Correa is the executive director of the Canadian COVID Genomics Network. She was in Vancouver. The two most common variants of COVID-19 are the ones first discovered in, as she mentioned, the U.K., but also in South Africa.

RINESH CHETTY: We were able to battle the first wave properly because we had a level five lockdown. Health care workers were prepared. We had our masks. We had our supplies. We could see, and we could feel, and we could know when it was going to hit us. The biggest problem on the advice that I have anybody, any country that is seeing the variant is do not at any stage estimate coronavirus, especially in waves, or the variant. That variant is already sitting in the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: That variant is already sitting in the country. That's Dr. Rinesh Chetty in Durban, South Africa, warning that the variant is more widespread than we may think. A warning my next guest thinks Canadians need to hear. Dr. Lauren Lapointe-Shaw is a health services researcher and physician with the University Health Network and the University of Toronto. Doctor, good morning to you.

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: At this point, is it possible to stop these new variants from spreading in this country?

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: I think that it would require a much greater degree of effort than what we're putting in presently to effectively stop the variants. And so I think, practically speaking, we will not stop the variants from spreading because we have... we have failed to escalate measures.

MATT GALLOWAY: The horse is out of the barn.

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: Yeah, the horse is out of the barn. It's really a question of when not if. As we see from the Roberta Place explosive and heartbreaking outbreak, things escalate extremely quickly. And now, we are dealing with importation as well as the possibility of spread within our communities. So from Barrie outwards, as well as coming in through the borders. So really, to be able to stop this effectively would require next level measures beyond what we're doing now.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to talk about those next level measures in a moment. But just briefly, what would happen... we've heard this from health researchers, from people who are doing the kind of modelling for jurisdictions, that they believe this will be, you know, the mainstream COVID. What happens if one of these strains becomes the mainstream COVID in Canada?

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: So when it becomes the mainstream COVID, because, again, I'm pretty sure this will happen. What we will see is that. When we see cases mounting quickly, and we tend to follow these curves, many of us every day were watching for the latest update in the curve, the slope of the curve will just suddenly be shooting straight up. And so what we thought previously was shooting straight up, this will be a new level of a vertical rise in cases unlike what we've seen before. And that's basically what happens when instead of something transmitting to, let's say, two people now for each person affected, it'll transmit to two-point-five people on average. And That sort of compounds like interest. So every person you infect then goes on to infect other people, and it's like a web. And so what may seem like not a big difference as far as the degree of transmissibility will compound into a much larger effect at the population level, and things will just rise that much faster.

MATT GALLOWAY: So let's talk about those next level interventions that you say are required. The prime minister has been saying that that, you know, more travel restrictions are coming for Canada. We heard that from the deputy prime minister yesterday on this programme. What needs to be put in place now to help contain the spread?

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: So measures at the border are a big part of this. Again, would have been much more effective to do this like a month ago, but better late than never. So putting in supervised quarantine, so in a hotel-like-facilities for anyone returning to Canada, including residents of Canada who go on... on trips, we know that that's going to do two things. It'll ensure that people actually adhere to their quarantine periods because they're being supervised. But it will also act as a deterrent for any form of leisure travel. So it will just discourage people from... from taking those trips abroad. And that means they're that much less likely to contract these variants abroad. Testing is a big part of this. So I... you know, the measures that were rolled out, I guess, last week or a few weeks ago to require a test before boarding a flight back to Canada, I support that, absolutely. However, we know that by the time the person arrives, time has passed, and they may now, in fact, have COVID, even if they tested negative in the country from whence they came. So I think a repeat rapid point of care test at the airport would also be extremely helpful. But, you know, that would be even in addition to the isolation period on arrival. All of these things together would make it much harder for cases to come through our borders. Now, within Canada, again, the more we can limit the to and fro of people across provincial borders and even within provinces, across cities and regions, the better we're going to be able to contain these variants. So thinking specifically about Simcoe Muskoka region, and just because I was listening, of course, to what Dr. Gardiner was saying, that already there's 85 household contact cases that I think we could presume have this variant case. You know, there's just a lot of movement back and forth between Muskoka and Toronto. I think it would make sense to really consider whether regional measures to kind of decrease that movement are in order? So like roadblocks basically to prevent that movement. Because right now, that is... that is a burning hotspot. And it only takes a few people kind of coming back and mixing with the Toronto community for this to rapidly kind of burgeon and cause an explosion of cases in Toronto.

MATT GALLOWAY: We only have a few seconds left. But I mean, you started by saying that in many ways, it's almost too late. Would those steps help in any degree?

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: So, I mean, I think they would. They would definitely, right? We know from what we've seen around the world when there's been really aggressive measures taken. So whether it was in Australia or many Asian countries, then the.. the ability to kind of to to calm the flames was... was remarkable. Of course, you know, it comes at considerable cost. People aren't happy about it. But it does mean that people are able to come out of these measures eventually. What we're doing right now is likely to just go on and on and on because it's sort of these half measures.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lapointe-Shaw. It's good to speak with you. Appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

LAUREN LAPOINTE-SHAW: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lauren Lapointe-Shaw, health services researcher and physician with the University Health Network and the University of Toronto. The CBC News is next. And then,.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I have even more good news to share. Canada is now contracted to receive up to 168,000 doses of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine before the end of December, pending Health Canada approval.

MATT GALLOWAY: A lot of weight being put on those vaccines. We'll speak with the head of Moderna's Canadian operations about getting the vaccines to our country. That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is "The Current".

Patricia Gauthier, head of Moderna’s Canadian operations;

Guest: Patricia Gauthier

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, days away from his retirement, Senator Murray Sinclair looks back on his time in the Senate, and ahead to the reconciliation he still hopes we can achieve. But first, rolling out the Moderna vaccine.

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WOMAN: So, you've consented to this vaccine?

MAN: Yes.

WOMAN: OK.

MAN: Here we go.

WOMAN: And you understand the mechanisms of how it works?

MAN: Yes, I do.

WOMAN: OK. And you know, that we'll give you an aftercare sheet that you have to stay for 15 minutes?

MAN: Yes.

WOMAN: We're going to give you a pick right now. Pick. And we're done

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Chief John Allen French of the Takla Nation getting his Moderna vaccine last month. His community in northern British Columbia got some of the very first doses of that vaccine to arrive in Canada. Another 40 million doses are set to arrive over the course of 2021. And you might be thinking not soon enough! Well, joining me now is the head of Moderna's Canadian operations, Patricia Gauthier. Patricia Gauthier, good morning.

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to have you on the program. I think a lot of people are anxious about when they are going to get their shots, especially this week when Pfizer cancelled its shipment of vaccine doses to Canada. When can Canada expect the rest of the 40 million doses of your vaccine that we ordered?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yes, so, I mean, we... as you mentioned, there are 40 million doses of the Moderna vaccine coming to Canada between now and the end of Q3. We are ramping up production at this point. So there will be more doses coming every month from now on. There is another shipment coming next week, and we are on track to deliver on our Q1 commitments to the federal government. So, you know, we're ramping up quickly. We're working hard to bring doses as fast as we can to Canadians.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are fewer than half a million doses scheduled to arrive in February. And, I mean, I'm no maths whiz, but if we were to do some, you know, back of the envelope or napkin math, at that rate, it would take something like 80 months, more than six years to fulfil Canada's order. So when do we start to get bigger shipments of the vaccine?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Starting Q2, it will be incremental. So we're ramping up, as I mentioned. And just to give a bit of perspective here, a year ago, there was no vaccine for COVID-19. And Moderna was not even a commercial organization. We didn't have a production line. So in the span of the past, not even a year, we've discovered a vaccine. We've proven really high efficacy at 94-point-one per cent. And we've put together the production lines in Europe to produce this vaccine in mass. So we're really proud that we were able to start bringing vaccines to Canada as early as December. And, you know, going from Q1 to Q2 to Q3, every quarter will be incremental in terms of doses coming to Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: How does Madrona decide which orders to fulfil and when? I mean, because everybody wants these vaccines, and they want them yesterday. So how do you go about figuring out which orders will get.... will get fulfilled when?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Great question, Matt. I mean, as you mentioned, you know, there's more demand than there's supply at this point in time. What I can say is Canada was one of the very first partner for Moderna. Canada was early to to lock in those doses, even before we had, you know, lots of clinical data to support the vaccine. And I can assure you that Canada is a privileged partner for Moderna. And, you know, as demonstrated by the fact that it was the first country to receive doses out of our European manufacturing site. And the second country to have those is right after the U.S. who got approval before Canada. So, again, Canada is at the top of the queue.

MATT GALLOWAY: Your CEO spoke with our prime minister yesterday. And, you know, part of that is about frustration mounting amongst the public. We're hearing all sorts of tough talk from politicians lately, things about, you know, ying-yangs, and firecrackers, and what have you. Does that pressure work? Do those tactics work? Does the squeaky wheel get the doses?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So you're right, the prime minister had a great conversation with our CEO, Stephane Bancel, yesterday, which was very productive. I think these conversations really help build relationship trust and provide context and just have open, honest conversations about current situation and what we can do to continue working together in the same direction. We share the same goal as the government of Canada, which is to bring as many doses as we can, as effectively as we can to Canadians and to other markets in the world. This is a global pandemic, so we're very much committed to that. And I think the conversation our CEO had with the prime minister yesterday reflected that as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: What would it take for Moderna to speed up deliveries? Again, you say that Canada is a privileged partner. The prime minister and others are, you know, turning up the pressure if I can put it that way. What would it take for Moderna to speed up those deliveries?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So, you know, when they share the perspective around not having a vaccine a year ago and now really ramping up production, we are investing heavily in production. We had a base case of 500-million doses coming out of our supply chain. Now, we're at a base case of 600-million, and we're continuing to invest and to hire people to reach our goal of one billion doses coming out of our manufacturing site by the end of the year 2021. So that's significant. So we're ramping up. I can assure you, people are working around the clock seven days a week to... to fulfil this goal that we have and really deliver as fast as we can to countries.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is important in part because, as we've said, I mean, this is a race. Everybody's trying to get their hands on the vaccines. And we're starting to see some sharp elbows out. The European Union has been threatening to block vaccine exports. Should Canadians be worried since part of Moderna's manufacturing is done in Spain? Should we be worried that perhaps the vaccines that we ordered may not be delivered because they don't get the export permits because the European Union says we want these vaccines instead?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: I think there are more questions than answers at this point in time around the European measures. It's really unclear, and there seems to be a lot of contradictory messages around what Europe will do. So at this point in time, Moderna is on track to deliver on its Q1 commitments to the government of Canada. And I hope this is something we can talk about more in the future as we get more clarity.

MATT GALLOWAY: But that suggests that there is the possibility that if, I mean, we're hearing this from the German health minister, we're hearing it from the president of the European Union, that they're looking at those export restrictions. If those export restrictions come into place, there is the possibility then that the delivery of Moderna vaccines could be interrupted to Canada.

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: I think it's... I think there's a lot of speculation here. Again, there's you know, it's unclear what the measures will be? And I really trust that the government of Canada is working hard with Europe to make sure that Canada gets... gets its share. And in Moderna, what I can say, and I can only speak for Moderna, is that we are extremely committed to delivering on our contractual commitments to the government of Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: So just finally on that, I mean, Moderna will unequivocally adhere to the timelines that exist within its contract with Canada?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yes, we are committed to... to fulfil our contractual obligations and deliver it as per the schedule agreed with the governments.

MATT GALLOWAY: The other issue that's at play right now is one of what to do when the vaccines actually arrive. Canadian officials recently recommended that the second dose of the Moderna vaccine could be held back as long as six weeks. Have a listen to Dr. Caroline Quach, the chair of Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization.

CAROLINE QUACH: Looking at mathematical models that tells us that if you are to vaccinate, you want to vaccinate early on. And that one dose given early to more people would have more impact in terms of prevention of hospitalization, complications and death than trying to get two doses in within that 21-day interval. We then said that provinces and territories needed to look at their local epidemiology, and look at the feasibility and logistics, and could give that second dose, preferably within the 42 days after that first dose.

MATT GALLOWAY: Patricia Gauthier, you have previously said that it is important that everyone get that second shot after 28 days. Are you still holding to that advice?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So the role of Moderna in this pandemic is to offer the best protection possible to as many Canadians possible. And for this to be achieved, for this best protection to achieved, the clinical data we have at this point in time supports a second dose about four weeks after the first one. That being said, I understand that the government right now is in a very unique situation and must make some trade-offs or difficult choices. And with the necessary recommendation, the government may choose to implement vaccine programs differently. And to me, that becomes government decisions.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are the risks of delaying that second shot?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Well, we see that the efficacy is really high with the second dose, and it maintains over time. The second dose is a booster. So I think the question that remains is at what point in time do we see immunity waning? And I think that's the big question. So this would be the risk, a waning immunity over time that may not protect against the virus as we know it or some of the variants.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do we know how much wiggle room there is? I mean, to your point, time is of the essence. There are high rates of community transmission. We've been speaking about the new variants. There are deadly outbreaks in long-term care. Hospitals are overstretched. Shouldn't we be thinking of ways to stretch the vaccine supply that we have? And if we do that, how much wiggle room... you say it's a government decision, but how much wiggle room in terms of the safety and the efficacy of the vaccine do governments have?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yeah. So the clinical data we have supports a second dose at four weeks. This is with Health Canada has approved. Now, NACI, you know, has looked at the data and made a recommendation. And the government may choose to implement their program as they see fit within the recommendations made by NACI or other clinical trials they have or clinical data that they look at. So again, I think that remains a government decision. And I can't speculate on the wiggle room because what our product monograph says is really that for weeks, and that's what we know for sure at this point, that will give the best protection for Canadians.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do we know about these new variants? I mean, we've seen how they have torn through the United Kingdom and a long-term care home here in Ontario. What does Moderna know thus far about how well the vaccine that has been approved in this country works on these new variants?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yeah, so we just we conducted some in-vitro studies which show that the Moderna vaccine retains neutralizing activity against the emerging variants, which include the U.K. And the South African variants. So this is good news. This is really reinforcing our confidence that the vaccine we have as it exists right now will protect against these variants. That being said, we've noticed a six times decrease in neutralizing titres on the South African strain. But these... These titres, this... this protection, remains well above what we would expect to be protective. So, again, the key message here is we're very confident the vaccine, as we have it, will protect against the variants. That being said, out of abundance of precaution, we are launching a clinical program, one that will test an additional booster with the current vaccine to see if by increasing the neutralizing activity it could protect... it could... it could provide even more protection against the strains. And we're launching another program, which is investigational at this point, to see if we could have a variant booster that would be designed for the South African variant. So more to come on this. And this is really out of an abundance of precaution and really leveraging the possibilities that the mRNA technology offers with rapidly being able to adapt our vaccine to adapt to these new strains if required.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given that technology, how long do you think it would take for the booster, but also whatever else you would be trying to, you know, come up with to... to nail this moving target? How long would it take to get those things through clinical trials?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yeah, I don't have specific information on this. This is we're just starting at this point in time. What I'm hearing is that it would take less time than what it took to discover to... to test and bring to fruition the first vaccine. But I don't have a specific point in time at this point.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do we know about how long immunity lasts after getting the vaccine?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yeah, so the clinical data we have at this point shows that after the second dose, we have data that supports really high immunity for another three months. We are continuing to assess the data. And we're hoping that by this summer, we should have a good readout to see what is the level of immunity after one year. And that will also help us inform do we need to have a booster? And at one point in time we need to have a booster? So more to come on this specific question.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hearing that there's high immunity for just three months, I mean, I think would be alarming to people. But as you say, that's part of the process that we just don't know yet how long that immunity is going to last?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Exactly, it's part of the process. It's a brand new vaccine. It's a new vaccine. So we need time to study it over time.

MATT GALLOWAY: The other issue that people have raised around the vaccine, well, there are a lot, but one is... is that the vaccine currently is thus far only approved for people 18 and over. When do you anticipate being able to apply for Health Canada approval for younger people so that they could get the shot?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So in December, we started doing our studies in adolescents, so these studies in adolescents are happening as we speak. We are expecting a readout of these studies over the summer, before middle school and high school teenagers go back to school. So hoping to be able to have a readout by then. And in the future, we will start to study under the 12 years old. But we haven't started yet.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to ask you about the business of this. Moderna is the most expensive of the leading vaccines, more than 30 dollars a dose for Moderna vaccines. Do you have a sense as to how much profit Moderna stands to make from what is a global vaccination campaign?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So Moderna was, you know, Moderna is a ten-year-old company. Moderna, a year ago, was a research and development biotech. There was no commercialization. What that means is there was no supply-chain. There was no massive production centres. We've had to invest heavily to not only bring this vaccine to fruition, so invest in research and development. But we've also had to invest very heavily to support the production of the vaccine. And we did this at risk. There was a stock issue on the market last year to support this investment. So massive, massive investments have been made. So I think we are really contributing as much as we can to this pandemic. We're doing this responsibly. We are committed to access where discussions with COVIX. So Moderna is very much committed to that access across the world. And I think we're we're... we're committed to fair and equitable access, given the massive investments that have been happening.

MATT GALLOWAY: That investment, though, came with substantial funding from the US government as well. I mean, and that... that was involved in helping to develop the vaccine. I'm just wondering.... it's a business, obviously, and no one's suggesting that, you know, the business should not make money. At the same time, there are other manufacturers, AstraZeneca, for example, has said that it won't make a profit from its vaccine during the pandemic. Why hasn't Moderna made a similar pledge?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So bringing products to market cost billions of dollars. So when I say massive investment, I'm talking billions. And it's it's bringing the vaccine to, you know, the research and development behind the vaccine, we've been doing research and development on this mRNA platform for ten years. Ten years without just investing in the research and development, and now investing in production of it. Moderna is a biotech. We have one product at this point in time. We don't have the portfolio of other pharmaceutical giants to support the investment. So a lot of the investment I'm talking about have been made completely at risk because we believe that we could make a difference in fighting the pandemic. So I think it's hard to compare a biotech to a pharmaceutical giant.

MATT GALLOWAY: Part of this is about the long-term costs as well on... On health care. Your global CEO has suggested that the market for COVID vaccines could end up similar to Influenza ones, something that you have to get regularly. And again, this is what we were talking about around immunity and how long immunity lasts. We simply don't know. But it could be something where you need to get a booster shot every year. Do you have a sense as to what that would mean for health care costs?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: So, at this point in time, there's, again, a lot more questions and answers on this point. I don't know what the cost will be. I think we will need to discuss with stakeholders to understand would it be like a flu program and we decide on specific cohorts? Or does it become a universal program? So I think in terms of cost, there are multiple factors that need to be taken into account as we plan forward. And, again, like we need to understand if it becomes endemic, that's an if. But if it becomes endemic, which is the assumption at this point, you know, when do you need a booster? Is it every year or two years? Three years? And all these factors will... will be need to be taken into account around assessing costs of such programs, which we'll be discussing with stakeholders in due time.

MATT GALLOWAY: The pace of this is remarkable. When you stand back and think of it, and you've mentioned this a couple of times, a year ago, we were just really come to terms with the existence of COVID-19. Our lives hadn't changed as dramatically as they would in the weeks following, and people were talking about the possibility of a vaccine if there would be one created maybe five, ten years down the line. Suddenly, there's a vaccine done in less than a year, and not just one, but other vaccines as well. What, to you, is most striking about what's happened over the course of this year?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: I mean, I am extremely, extremely proud of what's been accomplished in the past 12 months. And extremely excited about what's to come. I think science is winning here. I think new technologies are proving that more can be done faster. And to me, I think, you know, this is a catalyst for even more innovation into the future. As I mentioned, I mean, Moderna is a ten-year-old company. And I think there's a lot more to come from the mNRA platform that Moderna is developing and other organizations are also investing in. So I think we can't lose sight of the immense progress that have been made in 12 months. I mean, it's pretty much a miracle right now that we're able to deliver massive number of doses of vaccines to countries like Canada, not even a year after the pandemic has been declared by the WHO. So I think we should really keep that in perspective. And I'm extremely grateful for the work that all health care professionals, front line workers and the government of Canada and of the provinces is doing to bring vaccines to market and implement this as effectively as possible. So I think there's a lot to be proud of and be grateful for.

MATT GALLOWAY: You know that pace has alarmed some people. Vaccine hesitancy is a huge issue. And there are a number of people who say that you couldn't have accomplished this without cutting a corner here and there. What do you say to people who are alarmed by that pace and wonder whether every box was checked, every step was taken. When we're talking about, for example, we don't know even how long immunity lasts after you get the shot.

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yes. So first of all, there's a pledge to science first that ten pharma companies have signed. Moderna I one of the companies that has signed the pledge for science, which says there will be no corners cut. We will do things safely, properly, follow protocols and the process to bring drugs safely to market while we do it rapidly. Oftentimes, what takes a lot of time is clinical trials, recruiting for clinical trials. And we've seen this compressed because there was a high number of volunteers who were willing to be part of these clinical trials to test the vaccines, to bring it to fruition. And these volunteers really had positive impact in accelerating bringing the market... the vaccine faster to market. I can assure you, and you know, we worked with Health Canada very closely coming up to the approval. No corners were cut. I think where we were efficient in our conversations, a lot of very open, transparent conversation sharing the data we have. Very effective, very focussed, but no corners have been cut.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned COVAX. Just finally, we only have a couple of minutes left, but there are concerns around vaccine inequality, that we have a number of vaccines coming and doses coming here. But there are people who can't afford to get that vaccine to their company... to their countries. What is your company doing to ensure that there is equity, and that, you know, for us to be safe, we're all safe?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Yes. So, you know, the pandemic is a global public health situation. Moderna is committed to Canada, but it's committed to the rest of the world. We are committed to fair and equitable access. We are in discussions with COVAX. We are in discussions with multiple markets across the globe to... to support their efforts as well. So I can assure you, we're looking at the globe holistically and working with the many different partners to make sure that the billion doses that we will... we will be able to produce by the end of 2021 reach as many people across the world as possible.

MATT GALLOWAY: And does that mean donating doses? Does that mean selling doses at a price that those... that those countries could actually afford?

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: I'm personally not involved in these discussions. With the other countries, we're looking at fair and equitable access. So, you know, that's what I can see at this point in terms of making sure that they have access for the type of markets that they support and the type of population they support.

MATT GALLOWAY: The pace of this is... is quite something. And, as I say, there are a lot of questions. And you've been clear that there in some cases more questions than answers. But I do appreciate you taking some of our questions this morning. Patricia Gauthier, thank you very much.

PATRICIA GAUTHIER: Thank you very much, Matt. Have a great day.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you, Patricia Gauthier is the Canada country manager for Moderna. Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine is one of two currently approved for use in Canada. Your regional update is next. And then, a conversation with Murray Sinclair. He reflects on his retirement from the Senate and on the future of reconciliation in this country. What is it that can be done to ensure that reconciliation, as we are saying, is more than just a word? We'll talk about that in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Murray Sinclair

Guest: Murray Sinclair

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current".

MURRAY SINCLAIR: This has been a difficult, inspiring and very painful journey for all of us. The residential school experience is clearly one of the darkest, most troubling chapters in our collective history. In the period from Confederation until the decision to close residential schools was taken in this country in 1969, Canada clearly participated in a period of cultural genocide.

MATT GALLOWAY: Murry Sinclair led the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that examined the atrocities of residential schools and their lasting impact on Indigenous people in Canada. A trailblazer through his legal career and the first Indigenous justice in Manitoba, Murry Sinclair became a senator in 2016. He will retire from that post later this month. I spoke with Senator Sinclair last week about his years in the Senate and what his future holds. We also spoke about Senator Lynn Beyak, who was suspended twice for her inflammatory remarks about Indigenous peoples and residential schools. Lynn Beyak retired from the Senate after I spoke with Senator Sinclair. His perspective, I think, on the controversy will surprise you. Here is my conversation with Senator Murray Sinclair.

MATT GALLOWAY: Senator Murray Sinclair, good morning.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a real pleasure to have you on the program. When you accepted your appointment to the Senate, you called it a sacred honour. What were you hoping to accomplish in accepting that?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, there are probably a number of achievements I was trying to reach. But two major goals that arose for me at that time, firstly, related to the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the opportunity to keep the conversation alive and to bring the conversation into the Red Chamber because that was the place that also participated in the cultural genocide of Indigenous people. Because all of the laws that were passed came through the Senate throughout Canadian history. So I thought it was time for there to be a different voice, a different perspective and an opportunity for the Senate itself to acknowledge that and to begin to move on. And secondly, of course, there was a need that was voiced to me at the time by the prime minister of reforming the Senate and making the Senate more independent. And that was also my ambition.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so as you get set to leave the Senate and you look back on your time there, how do you feel about... about what you accomplished? Did you feel that you met the goals that you had set out for yourself when you accepted that?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I recognize, of course, that both of those ambitions are long-term ambitions and are going to exceed any period of time that I'm going to be able to spend in the Senate. The conversation about reconciliation and acknowledgement of the truth of residential schools is one that will be a constant conversation. It's because reconciliation is not a state that you achieve, and you know you're there, and that's it. It is, like any relationship, you know, once you establish a relationship with somebody, then each day, you have to put effort in to maintain that relationship and also to change the relationship as things come up between you. With regard to Senate reform, we really need to look upon the senators, Canada's council of elders. It was envisioned that it would be the place to use the phrase that Sir John A. Macdonald used the time of sober second thought. And the Senate itself was envisioned to be something somewhat different than what it became. Over the years, it's evolved into a place of vested interests. The partizanship, the political activities that go on within the House of Commons also quickly became part of the Senate itself. And probably for quite a number of years now, we have seen political partizanship functioning within the Senate in a way that I don't think is very constructive for the country. I think that if we have a Senate that merely reflects what and how the House of Commons works, then we may as well get rid of it.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the things that leads people to question the value of the Senate is the fact that one of your Senate colleagues, Lynn Beyak, she's made a number of racist comments, said that residential schools were positive places for Indigenous children. She has said these things. She hasn't been held to account in the way that people have. And she's still sitting in that institution.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I was on the ethics committee that looked at what she had done. I think that there was certainly a need for her to change her ways and for her to be held accountable for what she had done. And I was chair of the Ethics Committee that reported upon the most recent activity of her having gone through a retraining program. And I've not advocated for her removal. There is a motion that is currently before the Senate brought by my colleague Mary Jane McCallum, who is herself a residential school survivor, to get the Senate to take action to remove her from the Senate. And the Senate could certainly do that. But the reason I've not advocated for that is because I've said, you know, we really have to realize that there's... there are two sides to this cultural genocide debate. And that is those who are advocating for it blindly we're taught in schools, just as Indigenous children were taught in the residential schools, that Indigenous people were inferior, that they were unclean, that they were pagans, that they were heathens, that they were devil worshippers. That message was taught to the non-Indigenous children in the public school system as well. And that message was also portrayed in the media of our nation for many generations. And that lack of willingness to see Indigenous people as equal human beings has permeated our conversation so much that we don't actually see it when we confront it. When it bumps into us, we think of it as something else. It's blatant racism. But sometimes, blatant racism comes from ignorance and from a lack of knowledge. And my view is that if people are given an opportunity to confront their ignorance and to learn more, will they change? And I think that people are capable of change. And I think that Lynn Beyak is capable of change. As I said to her publicly, and I've said to others as well, she doesn't have much room to manoeuvre here anymore. So if she makes one more faux pas or one more blatant act, then she will be gone.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a really generous position to take. And I think a lot of people would find it difficult to get to that... that... that place of generosity.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: If you believe in reconciliation, then you have to believe that it's reconciliation from both sides. Because there are many people like Lynn Beyak in society who are in need of reform. Society itself is not perfect. Canadian society contains thousands of individual Canadians who have been raised to believe in the very same things that Lynn Beyak had been raised to believe in. Yet, for the most part, they are kind and generous people. They contribute to their communities. They believe in Canada as a nation, and we need their support in order for us to continue to grow as a country. But we also need them to understand that they come from a place where they are acting in an unjust way because they don't know any better. We want them to learn to know more.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the wake of the TRC, there was talk of a reckoning around relations between Indigenous folk in this country and the nation itself. We've seen, you know, the reckoning that we saw the summer over the course of relations with Black communities and the conversations around antiBlack racism. Do you believe that that sense, that... that reckoning with Indigenous communities and the racism that those communities faced, has that come to pass? Has that been a true reckoning?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, we haven't seen the end of it. It's going to keep occurring because the systemic racism that is embedded into our very institutions are going to dominate the conversation for years to come. People who go to law school, for example, when trying to be good lawyers and trying to be humane people are often compelled to do unjust things because of the way the laws read. And so we really do need to look at changing our laws so that we can be better lawyers and we can be the kind of lawyers you want to be. People who work in hospitals are often taught and pressured by their colleagues to behave in a particular way. And sometimes, they're pressured by their colleagues to maintain silence in the face of their colleagues' blatant racism. And that's true for police officers as well. So we need to ensure that the systems in which they function are able to confront both the internal racism that's there, but also to confront its own inability or lack of willingness to deal with how it is compelling certain behaviours or allowing certain behaviours to occur without changing them. Indigenous people and people of colour are standing up, and saying enough is enough is... is one thing. But the people who control the institutions, the people in charge of the institutions that we're trying to address, really do need to take stock of what they're doing and change the way they do business.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned health care. We're in the midst of a pandemic right now. And you have called out the premier of Manitoba, Brian Pallister, for comments that he made around vaccine delivery to First Nations people. He was saying that if... if, you know, a portion of the vaccines were held back for First Nations people, then Canadians would be shortchanged, in his words, when it came to the vaccine. You wrote, and you're writing about Bryan Pallister here, you're just part of the current race war, Mr. Premier. And sadly, one of its leaders. What is the current race war?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, it is that when Indigenous people are part of the conversation among leaders in this country, often it becomes a ping-pong game. And that is a reflection of the kind of victimization that has been going on for generations and is going to continue to go on. Province's declaim responsibility for Indigenous people within their boundaries unless they say, well, we need to count them in order to get more money out of the federal government. And my point to the premier at that time was that he was not even aware of his own unconscious racism at the time. And he needed to be aware of it because he is a person in a position of leadership. We look to people like him to be able to and willing to confront the issues that are going on within the behaviour of our institutions and the behaviour of our other leaders. That kind of behaviour, that kind of leadership, is really what's going to change the way that institutions are functioning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Changing those institutions is in many ways at the heart of the calls to action from the TRC. There were 94 different calls to action. It's been five years since those calls were issued. Take a listen to what Commissioner Wilton Littlechild had to say about where those calls to action are right now.

WILTON LITTLECHILD: I'm encouraged by what I've seen going on across the country since we tabled our report as an individual anyway. But on the other hand, we're collectively quite concerned that this has been moving too slow. It's a matter of urgency that we have another look at our calls to action and maybe get a fresh start.

MATT GALLOWAY: Murray Sinclair, why is there not that sense of urgency that Wilton Littlechild is calling for?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: That becomes a question of performing a balancing act because they... they perform two balancing acts. One as a political balancing act. And so if they feel that they're going to lose support by doing something, no matter how difficult and how right it is, then they hesitate to get involved. And there is some of that going on, particularly at the provincial levels. But in addition to that, they perform a fiscal balancing, which is, well, we're not prepared to spend the money there, and we're prepared to spend the money elsewhere. So we're prepared to give corporations huge tax breaks. And those kinds of institutional behaviours are really the key to reconciliation, because in 1991, when I was co-author of the Aboriginal Justice Enquiry report in Manitoba, what I said then was, if you get rid of all of the racists and all of the positions of government, policing, justice, health, you will still have a problem because you will have a system that is functioning based upon policies, priorities and decisions that direct how things are to be done that come from a time when racism was very blatant.

MATT GALLOWAY: So practically, how do you tackle that then? I mean, it's that long game, and again, with the 94 calls to action, those get at that. But... but given, as you said, the political considerations that people make, the financial considerations that people make, the fact that, as you said earlier, reconciliation means that there are, you know, two sides of the table that are having a dialogue. How do you start to get at that larger systemic change?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, I'm glad you asked that question. I hope we have enough time to answer it because I wrote a 6,000-page report about that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Indeed! [both laugh]

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Let me see if I can give you the short version, all right? There are probably three major prongs that one has to think about as we go forward. One is that there are some immediate needs out there that really need to be addressed. And when you look at our calls to action, the first 25 of those calls to action are about those immediate needs. We need to do things to address the overall apprehension of children in the child welfare system because it's not really a child welfare system. It's a child removal system, much like the residential schools were. So you've got those first 25 calls to action in which we call for changes immediately to the way that child welfare services are delivered, the way that justice services are delivered, the way that educational services are delivered, and the way that the medical services are delivered because it's in those areas that Indigenous people confront and are confronted by racism in a direct way every day. And so that immediate change is really important. And in the long-term, of course, it's about getting the institutions to begin to look at the way that they are making decisions in their own systemic biases within the institutions. But the real long term solution is the importance of educating our children because if we can educate our children and raise them to understand that this is the way that we used to do things and this was the wrong that came out of this way, then we will also educate them to learn to respect each other from the beginning of their contract and to maintain that respect for each other throughout their educational career so that when they grow up to be the leaders of the future, they will have an innate sense of mutual respect. And part of that parcel is we also have to ensure that Indigenous people are given an opportunity to regain their self-respect. And that means that we now have to ensure that we give back to them those things that we're taking away, their languages, their cultures, their means of developing their own sense of identity.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you talk about leadership and leadership on those issues at the highest point, that comes to the doorstep of the prime minister. I remember speaking with you in the midst of the... there was a riot in some ways, and the storming of the lobster pens that were controlled by the Mi'kmaq fishermen. And you had said that you believe that Justin Trudeau in his heart was still committed to reconciliation, that you believed that he was... he was honest in that commitment. Do you believe that the prime minister, somebody who, when he came into that office, said the most important relationship was the nation-to-nation relationship? Has he lived up to that promise?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: No, and I think it's I think that's a fair assessment that there's a lot more work that he could have done, more work that he can still do as prime minister of this country that is there to be done. And not a lot of the changes that we could have seen to this point in time have not been affected because there hasn't been enough internal change made to the way the government is doing business. For example, you know, and I've spoken to the prime minister about this. I said, the one thing that I would have expected is that there would have been a re-education and a re-appointment process of senior managers within government who had a full understanding of what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said so that they believed in reconciliation, they understood reconciliation. They knew what to look for in the way that they were managing their departments so that they could change that. In addition to that, the legislative processes have not been taken that I think should have been taken. Romeo Saganash's bill, for example, that brought forward the question of legislating the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People as a framework for reconciliation should have been a government bill years ago. They should have brought it forward right away. That would have been an important contribution to our conversation. And we would still be sorting our way through that. The government has announced recently that they're going to put it as a government bill, but it's... it's something that could have been done five or six years ago.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you confront the prime minister with those issues, what's his main, you know, without betraying too much of those conversations. But what's his response?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I can tell you that I honestly believe that he understands.

MATT GALLOWAY: If he understands, why would he be held back then, though? I just I think --.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, [laughing].

MATT GALLOWAY: I think some people would be struggling with how to understand that.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: You need to... people don't appreciate the difficulties that go into governing. Changing the way that we govern, changing the way that government works, it's like trying to turn a ship while using a small rudder on the back of it. You have to get everybody pulling on one side. You have to get everybody manoeuvring that ship so that it begins to turn. And then it begins to turn ever so slowly. And you can't even perceive the redirection of it until you're actually facing a different direction.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you avoid cynicism, and how do you avoid stoking cynicism amongst people who have a much shorter expectation of a timeline than the long game that you're playing? Because there are a lot of people who... there are a lot of people who want action yesterday. And they're not interested in the boat turning slowly. They want the boat turned around now.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: I know. And I warned them at the end of the TRC that we have to recognize that it took us seven generations of government action and oppression and societal action and oppression to get to this point in time. And seven generations of Indigenous children were put through these schools and created this mess that we now have. It's going to take us a number of generations before we can say that we have begun to change things in it. And in order for us to do that, though, every single generation has to be trying to affect that kind of change towards reconciliation that we were trying to affect about doing something about Indigenous people a 150 years ago so that we have to turn that 150 years of negativity into generations of positivity. And the reason I don't lose faith, the reason that I am not a cynic, is because I believe in the people. But I also believe, and I love the survivors who spoke to me and all of those who went to residential schools. And I promised them that I would never give up.

MATT GALLOWAY: You're writing your memoirs, and you have said that you want to answer four questions. Where am I from? Where am I going? Why am I here? And who am I? I'm not going to ask you to write the memoirs for us on the radio [chuckling] and answer all of those questions. But as you leave the Senate, how do you answer the question, who am I?

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Well, at a very personal level, it is about understanding your sense of self, understanding your identity, understanding your role in life, understanding what the history of your people are. And that all of them contributed to who I am today. I remember a conversation I had with my good friend, who was an elder and chief of the Eastern Doorway, and he said, have you ever sat down and thought about how many people back in your ancestry had to come together to contribute to your existence? He said if you think back one generation, two people, two generations, four people, so every generation it doubles. And within a relatively small number of generations, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who have contributed to my existence here on this earth at this time. So we... we have made a commitment to honour those past generations in order for us to be able to say this is who I am. I am not just a product of my law school and my judicial career. I am also a product of all of the efforts and all of the thoughts and wishes and the dreams of all of those people who went before me.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a real pleasure, as always, to talk to you. And I hope when the book is done, we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, Senator, thank you very much.

MURRAY SINCLAIR: Thank you very much, Matt. It's always a good time to talk with you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Senator Murray Sinclair will retire from the Senate at the end of this month. As I mentioned, Lynn Beyak resigned from the Senate, but she said she stands by her comments about residential schools and the TRC. And so we invited Senator Sinclair to respond to this development. Here's part of the statement he sent us. Former Senator Beyak's resignation is a positive event for the Senate, and for Canadians who deserve responsible and honourable conduct from public officeholders. Her statement of resignation emphasizes good aspects of residential schools, despite their purpose of eliminating Indigenous cultures from Canada. And the serious physical, mental and emotional harm they have done. Her words contradict her own apology delivered on the Senate floor. Clearly, as many had suspected, she was hiding her true thoughts and feelings all along. This suggests to me that she is not only continuing to be unwilling to learn, but she will continue to espouse her racist views going forward. Her attitude is harmful and dangerous, and I'm glad that she will no longer be able to express those views in parliament. That from Senator Murray Sinclair. Coming up tomorrow, on "The Current", we are pulling our radio RV into Antigonish, Nova Scotia. In the coming weeks, our series, "Canada's Road Ahead", will be travelling across the country virtually. In my dreams, I would be driving the current motor home personally across the country. [laughing] But we can only do that virtually at this time. We will hear from Canadians on how they are dealing with the pandemic and what's giving them hope for the future. Tomorrow, we'll hear from students at St. Francis Xavier University who are having a university experience far from what they had expected. But even with a global pandemic, the students are staying positive.

GIRL: This is the X Ring and any person from St. FX will tell you it's the third most-recognized ring in the world. I don't know what that stat checks out, [laughing all around] but that's what we're going off of. And so every graduating student is eligible to get one in their graduating year. And so it has like the year that you're scheduled to graduate. So mine says 2021 around the outside. I got Vienna waits from the song "Vienna" by Billy Joel because that song is like the song that our house kind of sings, belts to, you could say. [laughter all around] It's kind of like symbolizes kind of dreaming towards the future and enjoying the now.

GIRL#2: Yeah, we sing this song all the time. And this song is, what Ali was saying, it like really is the perfect like slow down, let's enjoy the moment we're in right now because we're almost done. And that's really scary. But it's still going to be fun, even if we are a little bit scared for the future. When we came back in September, we were so, so grateful just to be here and be with each other. And so I think that, like, we will carry that energy going forward, and just taking advantage of the time that we have in the moment. So, like, even if COVID's happening, and there's a hundred things you can't do, there's still so many things you can do that are going to be, like, really special and meaningful.

[Music: Students sing to "Vienna" by Billy Joel/ Rock]

MATT GALLOWAY: Nothing better than a Billy Joel sing along to keep your spirits up, I think. Tune in tomorrow to hear more about the impact that COVID is having on campus life in antigonish, Nova Scotia, as part of our latest stop and our series, "Canada's Road Ahead". And that's it for "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "Q". The filmmaker, Ramin Bahrani will talk about his latest project, the film adaptation of Arvind Adiga's incredible novel, "The White Tiger". This film is getting some interesting notes already. You'll hear all about it coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care, and sing along to Billy Joel, if you dare.

[Music: "Vienna" by Billy Joel/ Rock]

January 27, 2021 Episode Transcript

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