Ottawa declares state of emergency as protest enters second week

Guests: Amarnath Amarsinga, Michael Kempa, Regina Bateson

SOUNDCLIP

We're looking at reconciliation, you know, we're looking at reconcili-action here. The Olympic bid can be seen as laying the foundation for transformative change. We're going to be leading the way and we're ready to do that.

MATT GALLOWAY: The 2022 Winter Olympics just got underway this weekend, but already for First Nations in British Columbia are looking ahead to 2030 in 30 minutes. The push for the first ever indigenous led Olympic bid and whether the payoff of bringing the Games back to Canada would be worth the cost. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

Think of us when you think about lockdowns, when you think about mask and vaccine mandates. It's not that people are trying to control you, it's just that I want a chance at life too.

MG: As politicians and public health leaders across this country talk about easing restrictions and living with COVID, Canadians with disabilities are feeling left behind. In an hour, how to make sure the return to normal doesn't keep those vulnerable communities locked down. We start, though, with the challenge of policing a new kind of protest in Canada. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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MG: The protests against COVID restrictions, including the convoy that set up camp in Ottawa 10 days ago, spread to a number of cities across the country this weekend.

SOUNDCLIP

[Protestors chanting]

It'I was here in support of the truckers and against mainly Trudeau and Doug Ford, I don't support the government policies. I think Canadians need to come together. Too much government control as well. It's a whole range of issues.

MG: Toronto, Winnipeg, Quebec City, Vancouver, even smaller centres like Barrie and Thunder Bay in Ontario saw anti mandate protesters in the streets. The blockade of a U.S. border crossing in the Alberta town of Cootes is also in its 10th day. Ottawa Police ramped up enforcement and clamped down on anyone bringing fuel to the truckers as they still faced a downtown core taken over by big rigs. Chief of Police Peter Slowly on Saturday pleaded for more policing resources, and this was Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson on Sunday, the same day he declared a state of emergency for his city.

SOUNDCLIP

The situation at this point is completely out of control because the individuals with the protest are calling the shots. They have far more people than we have police officers. Clearly, we're outnumbered and we're losing this battle right now.

MG: Over the weekend, Toronto blocked off city streets to ensure access to hospitals and the chief of police in that city, James Ramer, had a message for protesters on Saturday.

SOUNDCLIP

If their intention is to demonstrate that they can travel by foot to public transit, to Queen's Park and they can demonstrate in person, but vehicles will not be congregating around Queen's Park. These areas will not be used for people to encamp or stay permanently for any duration of time.

MG: What started as a protest against vaccine mandates for truckers has grown into a political and policing stalemate here. To dive into all of this are Amarnath Amarasinga them in Toronto. He's an assistant professor at Queen's University, senior fellow at the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation, Regina Bateson is an assistant professor in the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa. And Michael Kempa, a professor of criminology who studies the politics of policing and security. He is also with the University of Ottawa. Good morning, everyone.

GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Regina Bateson. You're in Ottawa. We just heard the mayor say that he believes police are losing the battle right now, and he declared a state of emergency. Was that the right move by Mayor Jim Watson?

REGINA BATESON: I think absolutely it's clear to anyone here on the ground that this has gone from a protest to an occupation to really a much broader issue, drawing in other extremist movements, other organisations and now even international support.

MG: When you say here on the ground, what's it like in Ottawa right now?

REGINA BATESON: Oh, this has really been very disruptive for the average person. I've certainly heard from my students that people are being subjected to hate speech, being harassed based on their identity when they go out or try to go about their business. I took one of my younger sons for a haircut yesterday, just a few blocks away from our house, and there are vehicles passing by. You beeping, you know, even if they're not doing anything physically. It's very intimidating and startling for residents here.

MG: I mean, none of them are saying, you are in Toronto. There was a demonstration in that city over the weekend. How did police handle the protesters there?

AMARNATH AMARASINGA: I think they handled it better here because they made it very clear from the beginning that these hospital roads in the downtown core of Toronto, you know, has has lots of hospitals, and so you can't just have massive trucks being parked in the area. So they made it clear that if you want to come and protest, you can come on foot. But we're not going to tolerate these kind of blockade style situations, particularly in the downtown core. And so I think they kind of nipped it in the bud before it got out of hand, as we're seeing in Ottawa. But we are seeing it kind of expanding into other cities at this point. And so I think they're here for the long haul.

MG: Here for the long haul. We'll talk more about that in a moment. Michael Kempa, how would you say the Ottawa police's approach to what's happening there looks now 10 days in?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, then to really step up enforcement in a number of important ways, I think one of the biggest ones is cutting off the fuel supply coming into protesters in the downtown core. It was a very slow start. I don't believe they were prepared and I don't especially blame them in the sense that I think that it was outside of our conception of what to expect in Ottawa. We just people did not think that this could be part of the Canadian experience, but clearly it is.

MG: What does that mean that we did not think that this could be part of the Canadian experience?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Most of us here in Canada have little awareness that there are something like a million people in our country who live completely outside of the political mainstream. There is a members of radical alternative right politics, radical grassroots anarchy type politics. We just think that that's something that happens in the United States or elsewhere in the world. But COVID has provided a focus for many of these groups and helped them to organise and bring their protests into the cities. We just didn't think it was here. We saw it coming. We didn't recognise it when it was rolling into town.

MG: But you wouldn't say that everybody who was there on the streets of Ottawa is part of-

MICHAEL KEMPA: Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. There are many layers to this protest. In fact, the people who have the radical agenda are attempting to really reach out and speak to the general groups of people who are just angry with what they see as government overreach, excessive policy and really galvanise them and recruit them to their cause. They won't be successful with many out of the people who are upset about coded mandates exclusively. But it is a battle to win these people over and critically to get their wallets to have them fund alternative policies.

MG: And that's why you've compared this in some ways to a political rally.

MICHAEL KEMPA: Absolutely. Absolutely. It functions very much that way.

MG: Regina Bateson, if you take a look at this protest, there are 500 trucks, perhaps in the downtown core in Ottawa. How does that? It sounds obvious in some ways, but how does that add to the complexity of what police are up against in this?

REGINA BATESON: Well, from the beginning, I've thought that, as Michael was saying, there are multiple layers to this. But in addition to be a bit of a protest as an occupation, in some ways this could be viewed as an armed group occupying a part of Ottawa because the group is armed with trucks with big rigs. And we know that, of course, explosives can be hidden within vehicles and the vehicles themselves can be used as weapons. So I think that that significantly increases the risk both for the general public and for police attempting to respond to the situation.

MG: You used the word occupation a couple of different times. Is that how we should be referring to this now, do you think?

REGINA BATESON: Well, I think it's important to see that it's not just a protest. I do think that it analytically not helpful to slot this in only as a protest because it appears a lot of the other different dimensions of what's happening here. I think it's important to recognise there are multiple things happening simultaneously. And maybe that's not how demonstrations and social movements and political movements usually evolve in Canada, but that's the reality of what's happening here, and we need to wrap our heads around it. So we need to simultaneously to thinking about it as a protest, a political movement, a social movement with involvement of extremists and a right wing and white supremacist group. There are weapons that have been interdicted in addition to the big rig. So thinking of it as an armed group, that's taking action. I'm thinking of it as an international movement. I think we need to look at all these different levels in order to have the imagination to consider the possibilities for what might happen going forward.

MG: Amarnath what does that mean in terms of policing there? The Ottawa police have faced fierce criticism for what the force has or hasn't done. Many people feel. We heard this over the weekend as they've been abandoned by their police force. What does that mean if you are trying to balance the right to protest with public safety, given the different dimensions of this that both Michael and Regina have talked about?

AMARNATH AMARASINGA: Yeah, I mean, I think they're probably pretty aware of what's going on in the online space. I spent a lot of time on, you know, watching these people's live streams and going on their Telegram channels. And there is, as the previous speaker said, that there is an element of this which is organised by individuals who we know about from going way back in terms of anti-government activism and so on. And so we're not saying that every single person at this protest is somehow a member of the far right, but there is clearly elements of the far right who are part of the organising structure of this thing and ongoing in terms of fundraising efforts and so on. And so I'm sure the Ottawa police are aware of the dynamics of that in terms of what that could mean going forward for policing. But I think for the most part, I mean, they're doing a good job in the sense that they know. I think that any small spark could end up being very damaging in terms of how much violence is possible from this crowd. They also have to be aware that there are families and children who are part of the protesters. And so I think they've been taking it a little easy, but which has allowed these guys to kind of get baked into the city in a way that it is an occupation now. And just yesterday, they released a video on Telegram, which shows that they've been, these tents that they've set up on Coventry are basically large grocery stores, right? With people cooking, cooking and all these supplies that are in place. And so it doesn't seem like they're leaving anytime soon or planning to.

MG: You tweeted last night saying, we're kidding ourselves if we think this is ending anytime soon.

AMARNATH AMARASINGA: Yeah, I don't think I think a lot of these people are are getting ready to go several months, and it's not entirely clear how this ends. I mean, I think there's at this point, there are kind of three ways in which it ends. There's probably mass violence and arrests at some point, if something if there's a spark of some kind. What's interesting is there is a potential for it to kind of collapse internally, particularly around disagreements of money if that happens. Leadership squabbles and so on. We've seen that in past protests or there has to be some sort of negotiation at this point to kind of let these people leave with credibility intact, which it's not entirely clear what that even looks like.

MG: Michael Kempa. There has been a narrative circulating since this really got underway that if these protesters were indigenous or black, they would have been treated very differently by police. What do you make of that?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, that comes from historical record in that protests that have been organised by the Black rights groups or indigenous groups have been cleared away in short order by police services on many occasions. Here in Ottawa, under two years ago, we had a very small group somewhere between 12 and 20 people representing Black race groups who took control of a street corner in Ottawa and were summarily cleared out by the police using force. And that's mostly been because the police have been able to do so. The numbers of the protests, the significance of machinery and things that were blocking them so much less. But just because the police can doesn't mean that they should. Now they've been quite effective at containing 12,000 people as the numbers have swelled at various points in Ottawa. If you can contain 12,000, you can certainly contain 12 or 20 or 100 or 1000. So this may be the correct strategy, allow people to have their protests and only use police force when absolutely necessary with significant laws are being broken to prevent further damage.

MG: Regina, how do you think that goes down with people in Ottawa? The chief of police essentially said that this was an insurrection on the weekend that that that there was no way in some ways for this to be corralled without further resources coming from other police forces, but also looking at changing the Police Services Act. And he talked about how that this could be the beginning of something. Do you think that people in Ottawa are willing to to in some ways see this play out so that it doesn't spill out into violence or further violence?

REGINA BATESON: Well, I think two things are first, that I think there has been a real breakdown in trust between the city government and your average resident in Ottawa. I mean, people have been just baffled as to why they're being subjected to, you know, harassment, you know, racist insults, hate speech, in some cases assault. And they just have not seen policing services being delivered by the city to protect them and their basic safety throughout this. So that's one issue. I think another issue is that in addition to the possible ways this could end that have already been mentioned, there is a significant risk of some sort of violence or harm occurring, the sort of tragedy occurring within the occupied area itself. That's something that we have seen in other occupations. Sometimes it's not necessarily direct conflict between the occupiers and counterprotesters or the occupiers and law enforcement. Sometimes other violence or some other sort of tragic event happened within that zone. And then law enforcement finally prompted to move in. So, for example, in Seattle with CHOP, the Capitol Hill occupied protest, there were eventually homicides within that area, and that's when law enforcement moved in. And we have seen this with other some other situations of occupation. So I think downtown residents are right to be concerned for their safety. And in fact, there are already reports circulating of at least one attempted arson, for example. So I think that there are real threats to people safety that are that are imminent, that are ongoing. And so I do think residents want to see more action in the short term.

MG: How much do you think people in the United States, Regina, like minded people are watching what's happening here and supporting those protests? We have seen this turn up in, you know, various parts of social media and in mainstream media as well. What do you think is going on there?

REGINA BATESON: I think this is a huge issue, and I think it really has the potential to prolong and exacerbate and escalate the situation here. Being an American, having been involved in politics in the United States, I can tell you that there are several things are very different right for the media climate. I checked Fox News right before getting together with you guys this morning. And you know this story is all over the place. It's getting an intense amount of media attention and from outlets like Fox News, Breitbart, others that reach a, they speak with a loud megaphone and they reach a very specific audience. So that's I think one issue is really amplifying the messaging around what's happening. There were projections by Fox News that three million people would be coming to Ottawa this weekend. That hasn't happened, but that's the impression of being given right inflating. It's like a force multiplier for the people on the ground here. So it's reaching a different audience and reaching them loudly. I think the other thing that's different about politics in the US just quickly is the role of fundraising and crowdfunding. So the first of all, the sheer number of people, right, even if only if only 10 percent of Americans were concerned about this following the issue and fighting with the convoy members, that's more than the population of Canada, roughly. So there's a size disparity between the two countries. But then also there's a culture of rage collecting and donating to causes and a crowd funding them in the United States, a difference that doesn't exist here. So the amounts of money that the convoy has amassed are quite substantial. I mean, if you add together the GoFundMe fund, which they don't necessarily have access to but symbolically still shows their their heft and the new money that they've raised through gives them to go their ultimate platform. Now that's over 14 million dollars Canadian, and that's more than a federal party would raise in one of its best quarters. So I think that they're really leveraging a different set of strategies that give them serious financial resources and some political power, obviously in here.

MG: Amarnath, given that fundraising power again three and a half million dollars raised in a couple of days through gifts and go. Where does where does this leave? If we call this a movement and it's an anti-mandate movement, an anti-Trudeau movement, an anti-government movement, where does it leave the movement as a whole, do you think?

AMARNATH AMARASINGA: I mean, I think the movement is here for the long term. As I've written a few times this week and last week, as Michael said earlier, I mean, COVID really boosted a lot of these organisations and they and brought them all together with a common enemy, right? And so in a in a world where the Proud Boys and the three percenters and anti-government activists and kind of generic everyday Canadians who were angry with certain policies wouldn't have come together in any other period, it to play in the same sandbox, so to speak. We're now with COVID, the anger against the mandates has really brought all these organisations together and a lot of these individuals together. There is fundraising power. They've shown the ability to mobilise. They've shown they have an ability to fundraise very quickly. I think this is kind of the maturing of the Canadian populist movement that we knew kind of was bubbling under the surface at times, but we didn't realise, you know, we didn't realise how big it could get or how much angst there was within certain segments of the population.

MG: Michael, given that how does if we're talking specifically about Ottawa, how does the situation there and resolve itself, do you think?

MICHAEL KEMPA: If the protesters remain embedded for an extended period of time, what we're seeing now is the city is going through a kind of checklist of civil measures. They're trying everything they can within their civil power to resolve the issue. So we've brought in additional police officers from RCMP. We've declared a state of emergency, so forth and so on. If that doesn't resolve the matter and we've exhausted civil power at that point, there'll be a request made for military aid to civil power. It doesn't mean a military assault in the streets of Ottawa. It does mean the military providing numbers and hardware like towing trucks, for example, or towing machines to help the police execute their duties to clear the city.

MG: But is this - we have a minute or so left - but is this if you compare this to a political movement and both Amarnathm and Regina have said that this is the beginning of something Peter slowly said that you could see these sorts of demonstrations on a regular basis. Is this the beginning of something, do you think?

MICHAEL KEMPA: There's no doubt. There's no doubt. And the next time we will recognise it. I spoke about that failure of imagination. That naivete is over. Police services are well aware of what groups are capable of, and they'll be a much clearer sense amongst police as to when they act and what they act on. What's acceptable protest and what behaviours can not hide behind free speech and freedom of assembly. So they'll probably be quicker reaction and more organised reaction as we go forward. There's no turning back.

MG: It's good to speak with you all about this. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you, Amarnath Amarsinga, assistant professor in the School of Religion Cross appointed to the Department of Political Studies at Queen's University. Associate Fellow as well at the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation. Regina Bateson, assistant professor in the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa and Michael Kempa studies the politics of policing and security. He is also a professor of criminology at the University of Ottawa. You're CBC. News is next. And then a group of First Nations in British Columbia have come together to put in a bid for the 2030 Winter Olympics.

SOUNDCLIP

We never, ever surrender their lands. These are our lions. And then to be able to be recognised to have led worldwide event like this would be huge steps forward.

MG: More on what this bid means for reconciliation and the big questions is around funding. That's coming up in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

First Nations in B.C. preparing bid for 2030 Olympics

Guests: Chief Wayne Sparrow, Councillor Wilson Williams, Robert VanWynsberghe

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, public health officials are beginning to talk about living with COVID in some places, that means lifting restrictions and shifting perspectives around lockdowns. For Canadians living with disabilities, though, it means something very different in just under 30 minutes. We'll speak with some of the people who say they simply cannot live with this virus. But first, an historic Olympic bid.

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MG: The Olympics are underway in Beijing. That City joins a short list of places that have hosted the games more than once. And now Vancouver hopes to join that club. It's only been 12 years since Canada hosted the Olympics in Vancouver and Whistler. But some are ready for the games to come back. The proposed bid, fronted by four First Nations in B.C., would see the games return in 2030. That bid would be the first ever Indigenous led Olympics in history. I'm joined by two people involved with this proposal. Squamish Nation Councillor Wilson Williams and Musqueam Chief Wayne Sparrow. Good morning to you both.

Good morning.

Chief Sparrow, where did this idea for bidding for the Olympics come from?

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: Well, it was. Our cousin from Squamish called Salem bounced the idea about a year ago to ourself and seal the tooth. And it started. It started from there.

MG: Councillor Williams wanted Tell me a bit more about this. Why the Olympics and why now

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: there's a transformative change occurring, you know, through the spirit of reconciliation through Canada that there's a space now at the table for indigenous peoples. And in this case, or our host nations must go and slay with teeth and lily-white and the Squamish nation. We have the capacity, we have the strong leadership and we've been advocating for change and fighting for change since our ancestors passed that down to leadership of the day. And now we feel we are being heard, especially on respected and valued throughout our lands and have a say in what happens to our traditional territories, our shared traditional territories.

MG: There are a lot of ways to exercise that. Why the Olympics? What is it about the Olympics councillor that is so intriguing to you?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: The legacy left behind and had a great impact in our communities, and we're going to be going back to our respective communities in regards to, you know, what are the impacts and, you know, basically engaging interest in this. Our communities are actually interested to pursue this. But respectfully, there's already the structures and amenities from hosting the 2010 games to and we got a beautiful see this guy highway. We got the Richmond Oval and we've got the beautiful pavilion that's erected in the Muslim lands by the river. Such good legacies.

MG: And is your expectation, Councillor, that those same venues would be used for this bid in 2030, that you wouldn't need to build new facilities, new structures built in. That's one of the huge costs. You wouldn't need to do that to host the games?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: That's going to be looked at in the feasibility study. So what I'm hearing and what I've heard from respective leaders is, you know, there's going to be needing upgrades and renovations to certain venues that'll all be sort of conducted through the feasibility phase.

MG: Chief Sparrow, you could imagine there are a lot of groups that might want to bid for another Olympic Games what makes an indigenous led bid different from other bids?

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: I would be the first of its kind. It would be groundbreaking. I was involved a little bit in the 2010, and the IOC and the city of Vancouver really took the lead in 2010, when Canada put the bid and started getting into the process. The IOC said What about the First Nations? Are they in support of it? And that's where Chief Gilly got involved at that time and came and seen us here in Musqueam so, you know, to be able to be recognised here in Vancouver and B.C., a lot of our First Nations don't have treaties. They never, ever surrendered their rights. You know, all across the country, a lot of other First Nations already have treaties so that that kind of really brought our three communities together and then we're just been building on it there. So I mean, it can be it'll be interesting. I'm hoping that it can be. I've said numerous times that it's going to be Canada games led by the host nations, but I would like to see our regional chief involved if we get to the next step and then our national chief to be involved, to be inclusive of all First Nations and make sure we can try to host the games that includes as many as possible.

MG: What do you see as the benefit for the four First Nations chief? I mean economically, but also socially and culturally in terms of taking a lead in these games?

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: Well, I think to be recognised in our territory, we never surrender their lands, must swim Squamish and sell it to surround Vancouver here. I've always said that that they wanted to be able to tell us our stories and and then not have the scare tactics with the citizens of Vancouver and Whistler and Little AWhat that we're here to work with the governments and walk by them side by side and not behind them anymore.

MG: What do you mean scare tactics?

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: Well, you know, like a lot of people think, you know, when you when you talk to them, they always think there's hidden agendas with First Nations when they're trying to pursue their. Their rights that they have to the land and rights to be recognised as the government. So when I did a lot of the media coverage on a separate issue with a with the parks board right away, they think that we're trying to take parks out of Vancouver's control and then we're going to build casinos or we're going to do stuff like that. Those are kind of questions that we get from citizens, right? So I think people use those as scare tactics and think that there were there's hidden agenda. That's the point I was trying to get across.

MG: Councillor Williams, how much will this cost? Do you have a sense of the price tag?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: You know, there's flexibility with the IOC on how they their approach and implementation of the games where there's flexibility around the costs. The costs won't be as high as they were in the past in regards to the bidding process and hosting the games. So, you know, that'll be determined in the feasibility phase and that will determine if they are feasible for our respective indigenous communities and Canadians needs. And you know, it's going to be a collaborative effort, but also doesn't meet the evolving needs, whether it's social impact, the economy of all indigenous peoples like the inclusivity is there. But does it meet all the needs, evolving needs of all Canadians? But when you

MG: talk about cost, I mean, these are the Olympic Games. We're talking about billions and billions of dollars, right? Yes. Who would pay for that? I mean, if it's an indigenous led bid, does that then mean that those four First Nations are on the hook for helping to pay for this? Where would that? Where would that money come from?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: Well, I can't share that with with the collaboration agreement with the Canadian Olympic Committee and the Canadian Paralympic Committee signing on to the collaboration agreement that they will be responsible for the cost coming in and they have the expertise to pursue the bid process. So they're going to be actually covering costs for the bid process, but we're way too early. But also we have a long road to go in regards to the next steps.

MG: I guess one of the reasons why cost is important is because there are I mean, even in 2010, there was, you know, a lot of excitement around those games and we saw in Canada do well. We saw the material benefits in terms of the seasons, see the sky highway and other investments. But there were protests as well, and people felt that the money could have better been spent on housing other social services. We're in the midst of an opioid crisis right now. There's a housing crisis. There are other pressing matters. How counsellor do you justify the idea of spending that money when those other crises are unfolding?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: You know, it's similar issues and concerns we have in our in our community as well. You know, with the opioid crisis, we have a housing crisis, you know, and we have a big initiative to bring all our people home. But this is where we can open that dialogue. You know, what is what is there are people's concerns. My mailbox is getting full, whether it's on my email or social media or text or phone calls in regards to people really wanted to share their opinion. So we're creating that platform in more of a streamlined work plan. But yeah, I'm interested to see all demographics in our community and what what they see getting out of it because we all have our social economic challenges. So this is the platform for it.

MG: Same question to you, Chief. Why is this a good investment? Why is this a good use of money given the crises that that the counsellor has has run through as well?

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: Well, I think we've said that from the outset that we're not. The expertise of the Canadian Olympic Committee is doing a feasibility study once they finish the feasibility study to look at what the costs are truly going to be. You're 100 percent right. In 2010, there was a huge price tag to to host those games, building the highways, building facilities like we talked about a little bit earlier, but almost all of them are already done. And even from from side, the just want to elaborate a little bit more on the question is who's going to be paying for it? That's why we signed them or you with the Canadian Olympic Committee. They had the mandate to go and look to see if if they were Canada was interested in pursuing either a summer or winter games. And there was a couple of other groups that were in Vancouver knowing because of the costs would be weighed less instead of hosting it, like what happened in Calgary and what the cost would be to rebuild all of the the structures. They looked at it here. Those individuals came to us and talked about it, and that's all it all. It all got started. So when you talk about the funding and whether the First Nations or anybody is going to be funding, those are the discussions that we're going to be having with them. But our aspect was we would be end up taking over and being more like in the role of the banner. But I'm not going to pay for 2010. The federal provincial government municipalities covered those costs that would be similar in 2030. The First Nations led would be led to take over and be in the role, like the ban it did in 2010, but we do hear clearly about the cost, and we think that the cost and when we can't speak to that until the Canadian Olympic Committee is finished reviewing, I know they're going around to a lot of the facilities around here to get input on that, and that's the job that they're doing in the group they have. So as we move further through the process, we'll be able to answer those questions a little better.

MG: Let me just finally ask you about something that you've both raised, which is how this can contribute to this large issue of reconciliation. Councillor Williams, you mentioned that right off the beginning. How do you see this bid playing a part in reconciliation?

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: We're leading the way. We're looking at reconciliation here. You know, the Olympic bid can be seen as laying the foundation for transformative change for future event hosting and collaboration work with indigenous communities across Canada and the world. And I think indigenous peoples territory protocols throughout the land are respected and we're going to be engaged every step of the way and we're ready to do that.

MG: Chief Sparrow for you. You talked about the idea of of those four nations walking out front, no longer walking behind, but walking out front on their own unseeded lands. How do you see this as as a key part of reconciliation,

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: what our ancestors were talking about, we never, ever surrender their lands. These are our lions. And then to be able to be recognised the rights of indigenous people not just in Canada here but across the whole world to have a led worldwide event like this would be huge steps forward.

MG: The world will be watching and we will watch this and see how this bid moves forward and the conversations continue. It's great to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

COUNCILLOR WILSON WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you.

CHIEF WAYNE SPARROW: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Squamish Nation Councillor Wilson Williams and Musqueam chief Wayne Sparrow are part of the first four First Nations joint bid with the Vancouver and Winter Bid Committees for the 2030 Winter Olympics. This would be, as we heard, the first time that something like this has moved forward with the Olympics hosting a major international events like the Olympics or a World Cup comes with international recognition and celebration, but as we were talking about, also comes with huge costs that some argue are not always worth it. Robert VanWynsberghe is an associate professor at the University of British Columbia's Department of Educational Studies. He led the impact study of the 2010 Vancouver Games and has been listening to our conversation. Robert, good morning to you. Good morning. What do you make of the idea of the Olympics coming back to British Columbia in 2030?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: I want to thank the Council, Williams and Chief Sparrow. It was really interesting to hear what they had to say. And you know, it shed a different light on the prospect of hosting. I probably would say that there are some lessons to be learnt from 2010 that are going to still be applicable. I think that we're going to need to do some things differently this time around because there is a host area that's pretty comfortable with hosting. But we're going to have some questions that are related to having hosted in 2010. But I think the prospect of hosting itself is an exciting one if it gets combined with the notion of reconciliation.

MG: OK, so let's talk about those questions. What do you think this bid perhaps brings to the table? The 2010 didn't.

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: I think the notion of communities searching for and getting assured of legacies that matter to them will be a priority question in a way that it wasn't in 2010. Both guests talked a little bit about their communities, but I think more generally in the Lower Mainland and in Vancouver and Whistler specifically, there's going to be the desire to have some things that matter to the population really become front and centre. And I think housing was raised earlier and housing is just a massive issue. It's generally connected to the games in terms of the athletes village, and I think it will be a huge issue here again. Other issues, I think, are along the lines of having a watchdog to carefully watch the organisers as they attend to hosting that. They don't forget about some of the commitments they're going to need to make in order for people to say yes to any vote that will take place. I think a vote is absolutely crucial is done every time anybody submits a bid now that will have to be broad based and so will the consultation that leads up to it.

MG: What were the benefits that came out of the Vancouver games from 2010? If you take a look at what's happened 12 years later?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: The big ones are the infrastructure, and in some ways those are the easiest. The Olympic line, which is the public transportation line that goes from the airport downtown, with the success right from the outset to see this kind of highway was mentioned earlier. It's much safer, it's heavily used, it's popular and it's a great way to get from the Lower Mainland up to Whistler and the Convention Centre Downtown enabled some of the meetings and organisations to have more people attend, see the city, enjoy the city and spend tourist dollars. So those are probably the biggest ones. There's some disappointment in terms of 2010, and I would say the social housing commitments are the number one disappointment and the one that will lead people to be the most sceptical. The initial promise was over 300 units of social housing. In the end, I believe the number was 28.

MG: 28?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: Yes, that became a by-product of many things, but I think the biggest issue is the International Olympic Committee has a lot of control over hosts, and I think they're going to have to relinquish some of the control to ensure that things are done properly, not just timely from the perspective of the International Olympic Committee. They force the athletes village to get built on a timeline that forced the city of Vancouver to borrow money to support the developer. And so what you ended up having was a push to get that money back, which meant a slow reduction in the number of social housing units to the point where it's token.

MG: And so how do you go about avoiding that to your point? That's going to be a huge red flag for people who will be voting on whether the games actually come to town or not. How do you avoid, you know, big promises being made and then not being delivered on after the fact because it's a big party and people perhaps enjoy the party, but then it's was it worth it?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: Yeah, I think you have to decouple legacies from Olympic timeline, so housing would be a good example. I would say that we have a couple of universities with student housing. We perhaps think about the idea of using that housing as opposed to building athletes housing that then gets converted into condos, for example. I think the reason you do that is so that you don't have to pursue the International Olympic Committee's timeline and you can actually finish the social housing in advance of the game so that you can meet your commitments before actually hosting, as opposed to waiting till after the games are over. To then engage in this conversation of whether or not particular commitments were met, which is kind of what happened here. That would be one idea just to make sure that legacy is out front so people can see it and they have trust.

MG: What about the argument? And this is a question that I raised to the chief and the councillor that in the face of huge wicked problems, to some people, it seems perverse to spend money on a two week event. When you have a social housing crisis, when you have a broad affordability crisis, when you have an opioid crisis, when you have concerns around water on on First Nations that we're focussing on the wrong things. What about that issue?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: I think that's an excellent question. But I would also say from a host perspective, you can look at the host as being the region itself or the country from a regional perspective, we do get dollars that we would never get under any other circumstances, not for housing, not for the opioid crisis. These are dollars that come because you're hosting on behalf of the entire nation. So many of our big infrastructures for the 2010 games were paid by provincial and federal governments nationally. If we looked at the kinds of things that we might expect to bring Canadians together over the last couple of years, they haven't done it. In fact, they've had the opposite impact. If we go back in time to 2010, there is this thing called the red mitten effect. You know where everybody in the country is running around with red mittens, with the Canadian flag on it. There is a kind of euphoria. There's a kind of [unintelligible] is a term in sport sociology for the energy that's created around these big events that can bind people together and can help us achieve some of the things that we want to achieve as a country that, quite frankly, a corporate has done. And one would have expected it to put us together. But you look at the convoys all over the country right now, it's it's actually had the opposite effect and maybe the games are the antidote and maybe the games are the kind of event that can bring people together in a big nation.

MG: How could the IOC benefit from this? There's been great attention paid to how the IOC determines where the games are going to be held. And you see, you know, a paucity of cities. A lot of cities just don't want have anything to do with hosting the Olympics for all the reasons we've been talking about. If you have a bid that is led by four First Nations led by indigenous communities, how does that help the IOC?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: I think the IOC would benefit greatly. I think that they are going to be highly supportive. The reason is what you mentioned, but there's also connexions between the United Nations and the IOC that go back in time. And if you think about the United Nations commitment to indigenous peoples and if you think about the International Olympic Committee needing and United Nations because their legitimacy, quite frankly, has taken several blows over the last several games, you might see an International Olympic Committee that is very interested in becoming a more legitimate force for social change in the world and believing that they may be highly supportive of an indigenous led games. They're in crisis themselves, I would say, and they're having trouble finding hosts and they need to look good. Their efforts over the last couple of games to bring in countries that they thought would increase the audience for the games haven't proven to be very successful because the impacts are so negative. So the IOC, I believe, will be highly supportive.

MG: Just finally knowing what you know, is it worth it to host again?

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: I think if we can get commitments in place that are binding, it would be worth pursuing for sure. I think the opportunity to, as a country be at the forefront of reconciliation and of sustainability is something that might lead to the prospect of a permanent host for the Winter Olympic Games, and that itself would be something that we'd be in a position to to lead. And I think a lot of people would be proud of an effort like that.

MG: Canada could sort of just one final point on that, that Canada could be Vancouver. Whistler could be a permanent host for the Winter Games.

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: Yeah, absolutely. They've talked about this for 60 years. But if you think about how good will become at not only putting infrastructure in place but repurposing infrastructure, upgrading infrastructure. We could be in a position to be what they talk about as a permanent host. So the games come back here every four years as a way to address some of the issues that come with hosting in different places all the time with a seven year timeline, with the expenditures, with all the unknowns. I think that that might be on the minds of the people that are putting together this bid.

MG: How interesting. Robert, great to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

ROBERT VANWYNSBERGHE: Thank you.

MG: Robert VanWynsberghe is an associate professor at the Department of Educational Studies at the University of British Columbia. This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. There are few journalists who have reached the heights that Carl Bernstein has in his career. Along with Bob Woodward, his Watergate investigation led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon. Carl Bernstein went on to serve as Washington bureau chief for ABC News and write internationally bestselling books. But no matter how high he has risen, he will always remember the moment he first stepped into a newsroom. Carl Bernstein told me about it in a conversation you'll hear on The Current later this week.

SOUNDCLIP

It was first time I'd ever seen a newsroom in my life, and I was like a puppy on a leash, straining to keep him from pulling me any faster. It was the most glorious commotion I had ever heard or seen. This clanging and changing and changing of typewriters and people yelling. Happy and smoke plumes of smoke all over this great room, and a big desk toward the end, which was to the news desk with national news, state news, local news. Everybody looked like they were on the most urgent errands in the nation. And as he was leading me down this middle aisle with reporters, desks and reporters typing away on either side of me, a copy boy I didn't know that to was came up to us with a dolly of newspapers stacked on them, fresh off the presses, and this production editor handed one to me. It was still warm. And in that instant, I knew I wanted to be a newspaper man.

MG: You can hear my conversation with Carl Bernstein of a journalism newspapers in his days as a young writer for The Washington star. Coming up later on this week, speaking of newspapermen, we give a remembrance to John Honderich, publisher of the Toronto Star great newspaper man himself, who died this weekend at the age of 75. He would love that conversation with Bernstein. Coming up after a regional update,

SOUNDCLIP

I remember this one specific day. I just felt like crying in the shower because I was like, My mom shouldn't be doing this. I have service in place, but I was cut my service because I had COVID.

MG: In 90 seconds. We're going to talk about what reopening is. A lot of talk about living with COVID and reopening and lifting restrictions means for people in this country with disabilities. They have real concerns and you hear them coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Canadians with disabilities say ‘living with COVID’ isn’t an option for them

Guests: Allen Mankewich, Marya Bangash, Hilary Brown

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current we're all in the same storm, but we are not in the same boat. You might have heard that saying a few times over the course of this pandemic, but it is particularly fitting when it comes to how people with disabilities have experienced the last two years. When the world shut down, many people living with disabilities lost their independence or access to care, and now governments and public health officials are starting to talk about lifting restrictions and learning to live with COVID 19. And some people with disabilities say their needs once again are being ignored. I'm joined now by two disability advocates in different parts of this country. Allen Mankewich, which is in Winnipeg, Marya Bangash, is in Markham, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Thank you for having.

MARYA BANGASH: Mornig.

MG: I'm really glad to have you here. Allen, how would you describe the last couple of years in terms of living through this pandemic as somebody who is living with a disability?

Speaker 2: It's been really tough, honestly, just the number of devaluing statements we've heard from, you know, both governments and public health officials about the value of lives of disabled people has been really tough. The lack of supports has been really tough and just, you know, the overall lack of consideration or centring of disabled people in any of the choices they've made has been really tough.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, you mentioned the statements in particular. What are the devaluing statements?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Just like when they announced deaths due to COVID, they say that person has had pre-existing conditions or whatever, like why does that matter. That person's life had value. You know, it's a ridiculous statement to make. And you know, that's just one of the many examples of, you know, demoralising things that people have been subjected to, whether it's, you know, the lack of supports, just the overall attitude towards people with disabilities. You know, it's just been been really tough to to live through.

MG: What about for you, Marya?

MARYA BANGASH: I feel like during this pandemic, I've been fighting for my right to live. When I opened the news, I see people saying that, you know, like it was to mentioned if they have a pre-existing condition, that it's OK you catch COVID, it's whatever. When I see people saying that we have to just live with this pandemic, I can't live with the virus that can knock me out any day now.

MG: You got Covis, right?

MARYA BANGASH: I did last in January.

MG: What was that like?

MARYA BANGASH: I honestly thought that I was going to die. I didn't know I had to go initially and I was locked up in my house and I was like coughing and sneezing and like throwing up. And I thought that I was just sick because I was like, I haven't gone anywhere. I haven't done anything. I can't remember the last time I felt the sun o n my face. There's no way out of that cold and. But somehow it came home and I did. And while I was going through the motions and recovering, it just felt like all my surroundings that used to help me and be there for me. Suddenly, I had this ache about me and they didn't want anything to do with me. And I was left all alone. And in that moment, I remember saying that we're in this together, but I don't think we are.

MG: That's awful to go through, especially as you said at the beginning, because you hadn't felt the sun in your face in a long time, that you because of this pandemic that we were in, you'd lost some of the independence that you had.

MARYA BANGASH: Definitely because of people's selfishness, I've had to isolate and stay away a lot longer, while others with an average immune system are able to go outside. Being someone immunocompromised, I can't and I don't know when I'll be able to.

MG: Allen, how worried are you about catching COVID?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: So it's a big concern. Obviously, according to studies I've read, I have a 25 percent greater chance of dying from COVID than, you know, the average person, so that's very concerning to me. But you know, this isn't just about me, it's about millions of disabled Canadians across Canada who are impacted by these decisions. This is more than just a human interest story.

MG: So when you hear people say and it's public health officials, but governments increasingly say that we need to learn to live with the virus and that comes with loosening public health restrictions. I'll ask you first one, what goes through your mind?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Well, you know, inevitably we're headed down that path. I think if the government said, you know, this is what we're thinking of doing, but here's what we're doing in order to help protect disabled people. In the meantime, you know, it might be a little bit easier to hear, but we haven't heard any of that from any of the public health officials or politicians, as far as I can tell. You know, there's- when they announced the CERB, they decided that $2000 was enough for people to live on. Meanwhile, there's disabled people across Canada who are living on less than half of that a month. There's been no prioritisation for vaccines or other COVID treatments. You know, and the things that they have rolled out, you know, haven't considered as many disabled people as possible. So you know, when I when I see what's happened over the last two years, you know, I'm not hopeful that they're going to create the conditions to to make it safer for these reopenings.

MG: So practically, what would that mean? I mean, in Manitoba, the premier has said that there's a real push to get back to normal. So what would that mean for you then?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Well, when the Premier was asked if she has any message for disabled people when she made those comments to, her response was to get vaccinated. We've done that, you know, close to 90 percent of Canadians have done that. That's not a good enough answer. We need to ensure that people who are receiving home care are safe. One of my friends is convinced she contracted COVID from her home care worker because they're not providing PPE to people receiving home care. There's not adequate systems like that in place. We need to institutionalise people with disabilities. They've been sitting ducks and the majority of deaths have happened in long term care. So we need to do. We need to look at things like that over the long term. There's a lot of things we need a triage protocol, so we know that if we need to go to the hospital that the system is going to be there to protect us and give us equitable health care treatment. Whatever we've asked for that in Manitoba, we've been told, Oh, it's not a concern or we hope we don't get to that point. You know, hope is not a plan at this point. We need definite plans if we're going to get to the point where we're opening up again.

MG: Marya, what does that mean for you? That phrase living with COVID?

MARYA BANGASH: If you want me to live with COVID, you have to make it liveable for me. You have to make sure that myself and others like me are able to access home care, are able to go to the hospital when needed or able to access appointments, are able to go on transportation safely, whether it be door to door service or taking the bus. Also, with jobs in school, if universities are pushing us to go back in person, I'm really scared. I don't think I can do it. I'm online right now, but I could change any day. Same with getting a job. The job market suks, if I can't get a job, I don't want to end up being in poverty. We need to increase our ODSP. And you need to support me as a person with a disability. You can't ask someone to live with something if you don't meet that conditions livable.

MG: If if the restrictions were eased, are there services that you haven't been able to access because of the pandemic, because of various degrees of lockdown that you might be able to get access to?

MARYA BANGASH: One of them is I haven't seen my specialist out there since an extended and I haven't been able to get an appointment ever since, and I don't know if I was ever able to with my time will be up and I'll need a brand new referral. I don't know who's going to recruit me online child care anyway.

MG: So those are things that you might be able to get access to, but again, it needs to be safe to get to that specialist doctor.

MARYA BANGASH: I hope so.

MG: Allen, are you frustrated? Are you angry? How would you characterise how you I mean, two years into this, how you're feeling about how you and members of your community have or have not been treated?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Yeah, I think it's frustrating. It has been two years that's more than enough time to make plans to give people what they need to get through this pandemic and to create the conditions to, you know, ease public health restrictions as they're talking about now. So it's been really frustrating to just sit here for the last two years, watch governments and public health officials do next to nothing to. Give us the things we've been asking for over the last two years and, you know, and also doing next to nothing to create safe conditions for reopening.

MG: Why do you think that's the case? I mean, we've spoken with people living with disabilities over the course of the pandemic who talked about feeling as though, as Marya said, you can't leave the house, you're worried about the conditions that are out there. The risk is not being recognised by government officials. Why do you think that's the case, Allen?

ALLEN MANKEWICH: The overarching theme here is able ism, one thing that it's one thing that disabled folks have always dealt with. It's embedded in society. It's embedded in attitudes, it's embedded systems, it's embedded in policy and it's manifested in many ways and the attitude insidiousness of is and has really surfaced through the pandemic. For anyone that's been paying attention, these issues have always existed. Poverty has always existed for disabled people and able as a health care system has always existed for disabled people. And you know, just now, more and more people are realising how embolism has underpinned all these systems and the outcomes it creates for disabled people.

MG: Mario, what would a truly inclusive pandemic response have looked like, do you think? What's the best way forward that you could have imagined?

MARYA BANGASH: Something, I think in this pandemic that the leaders and people in power forgot about are those who were racialized, those who were immigrants in this country. Those are refugees in this country and then entrepreneurs and I work again. I get to racialized kids with disabilities, and the scariest thing I saw is all of these parents losing their jobs. You don't get access to services funding you or your child to get therapy for a child, to get health care, to get the basic minimum things that they need. They can't afford groceries anymore. They can't afford self care anymore. And it's so scary to see. I think if we were to have a really an inclusive response to COVID, we would include every last person minority populations included.

MG: Are you confident when people throw around the phrase build back better, that that will be part of building back better Marya?

MARYA BANGASH: Absolutely not, because when that phrase was said, when I had called it, nobody cared about me and I'm one person, I can't imagine what that feels like to hear in all these minority communities.

MG: I'm glad to speak with you both, it's both really important and hopefully informative in terms of what we as a s ociety need to do better in days and weeks and months ahead. In the meantime, take care of yourselves and thank you very much.

ALLEN MANKEWICH: Thanks for having us.

MG: Allen Mankewich is a disability advocate. He was in Winnipeg. Marya Bangash works with a group called Smile Canada. It supports racialized children and youth with disabilities. She was in Markham, Ontario. Hilary Brown is an assistant professor at the University of Toronto in the Department of Health and Society and the co-author of a new study in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. That study compares outcomes in patients with and without disability who were admitted to hospital with COVID 19. Hilary Brown, good morning to you.

HILARY BROWN: Good morning.

MG: You just listen to Marya and Allen. How common is what they have been describing across this country with people living with disabilities in terms of feeling left behind in this pandemic?

HILARY BROWN: Absolutely. I think that sentiment certainly rings true for what we've been hearing widely, you know, since the beginning of the pandemic, disabled people and advocacy organisations have been calling for inclusion and for prioritisation of people with disabilities and their response. And in the last two years, that really hasn't happened in vaccinations, in-hospital care or in community supports. Vaccination strategies have not prioritised people with disabilities in the roll out. Hospital care has largely not acknowledged the key role of essential visitors in assisting people with disabilities, with communication and coordination of care. And as you heard from Allen and Marya, many people with disabilities have been forced to go without essential community support because of the lack of vaccine mandates and high quality PPE for many home care agencies. So, you know, certainly we see that on a population and a policy level.

MG: There are 6.2 million Canadians who live with disabilities. And in in hearing that, I mean, Al, and one of the things he said is this isn't an individual story, this is a wider societal issue. Do you see this as a complete public health failure that that the needs of those 6.2 million Canadians have just been parked, have have been abandoned, have been ignored in the in the larger public health crisis that we're facing right now?

HILARY BROWN: Yeah, absolutely, it is a major failure, I think Allen said it perfectly, it really reflects, you know, underlying ablest sentiments in our society. And I think, you know, the pandemic has really laid bare existing inequities that we always knew were part of the health care system. And this has just made them that much more obvious. And I think it's a major, major issue that's going to need considerable attention going forward.

MG: The study, as I mentioned, compared outcomes in patients with and without disabilities who were admitted to hospital with COVID 19. What did you find when it comes to those outcomes?

HILARY BROWN: Mm-Hmm. So we used data from Gemini, which is a collaborative of hospitals across the Greater Toronto area, to look at the outcomes of COVID patients with and without disabilities. And two of the main findings were that people with disabilities were more likely than those without disabilities to have longer hospital stays. And also, they were more likely to be readmitted to the hospital after being discharged home. And so when we look at these two pieces separately, this really tells us a lot about the quality of care that's needed in hospital for people with disabilities. We know that again, essential care providers are often not allowed into hospital to be with patients with disabilities, and this is a major issue in terms of quality of care. Just as with communications to things like ASL interpreters to assist with coordination of care and planning for when discharge does happen. And then in terms of higher rates of readmission. And again, this reflects a real lack of community support that most people with disabilities are going back to the community. What sorts of services are available to help them as they continue their recovery? So again, really showing some existing inequities in care of the community?

MG: It also speaks to just the medical vulnerabilities that some people living with disabilities would have in going into the hospital, and it's been the euphemism as as both Alan and Mario we're talking about. Is this pre-existing conditions thing which which doesn't speak to the specifics of what somebody may be living with and the risks that they face if they get COVID and end up in the hospital?

HILARY BROWN: Hmm. And I think it also reflects the broader social and structural issues as well that explain a lot of the reason why people with disabilities are at elevated risk for COVID in the first place. I think Ellen alluded to this in his segment just talking about, you know, people with disabilities are more likely to live in poverty. They're more likely to live in congregate care settings, and they're also more likely to require home care services for people coming into the home to assist with personal care. And we know that all of those factors are risk factors for being exposed to COVID and therefore, you know, increase the risk of infection. So I think it also speaks to broader structural issues as well that, you know, explain why people with disability are at greater risk.

MG: Given that, why do you think people living with disabilities have not been prioritised for vaccinations?

HILARY BROWN: It's a great question, I mean, it's surprising, right, we know that our vaccination priority groups have been mainly based on age as well as some very specific chronic conditions, but not disability per say. You know, given that, as you say, there's 6.2 million Canadians living with disabilities that it is surprising. And I think again, it speaks to an underlying issue in our health care system that really for decades is not prior to prioritise people with disabilities. And we know that this has a very real impact on vaccination rates. You know, if people with disabilities are not prioritised, that's an issue. We also know that many vaccination websites for booking or not in are inaccessible. It's not possible often to require those accommodation needs ahead of time related to vaccine clinics. And a lot of vaccine clinics themselves are not physically accessible and don't attend to sensory and cognitive needs as well. So, you know, it's a major issue throughout the entire system. It really speaks to the need to make some shifts going forward.

MG: There's also been calls for the prioritisation of support workers for those who are living with disabilities. What difference would that make?

HILARY BROWN: Yeah, absolutely. I think that goes back to the home care piece, home care agencies, many of them do not have vaccine mandates, many of them don't have access to high quality masks. And so I think a lot could be done there as well again to protect both people with disabilities as well as home care staff, as well as to make sure that they have the protection that they need.

MG: One of the issues here is that in some ways we don't know specifically what we're talking about, because as your study points out, there is a real lack of data on how people with disabilities have fared during the pandemic. Why isn't there that information? Why isn't the data there?

HILARY BROWN: Yeah. Well, our major surveillance systems like COVAX just don't collect information on disability. There's been calls recently to include demographic identifiers like gender and race and ethnicity and COVAX to make sure that we have an equitable response and we're able to track that response in our pandemic strategy. But disability has largely not been part of that conversation. So I think, you know, our data are data that was, you know, collected and reported by researchers really reflects the need to do this more on a, you know, provincial and national level that we need these data to be collected. Because if we're not able to track what's going on at the community level, it's harder to make an argument for priority groups. So it really does speak to the importance of including these data.

MG: Do you have any optimism that that will happen going forward? Mario was pretty insistent, saying No, she doesn't feel as though this is going to be that opportunity to build back better and truly create an inclusive health system.

HILARY BROWN: Right. Well, I think we need to keep pushing for it, and I think our study and others like it are, you know, good evidence to suggest the need for it, and we'll keep using that to advocate for change. But I think certainly there has to be a will at a political level and a public health policy level have to do this. And I think part of really pushing for that is to ensure that people with disabilities and their families are included and that their voices are heard and that they're represented on those, you know, higher level of decision making tables. And I think that's what's really needed to start to make some changes.

MG: In the meantime, restrictions are going to be lifted. They're being lifted already. And there has been a pivot in the messaging from politicians, but also public health officials that we will need to, in their words, live with COVID. So what needs to be done now to make sure that people with disabilities aren't left behind in that shift?

HILARY BROWN: Well, I think the problem with that messaging and the problem with that shift of shift, the responsibility for health protection from the system to the individual. And as we've heard, that really disproportionately negatively affects people with disabilities because of, you know, their need for personal care, potentially because of their greater vulnerability to COVID 19 infection. And so I think if we're talking about easing restrictions, we need to ensure that there are systems and services and policies in place to ensure that people with disabilities are protected and other groups as well. And again, that looks like, you know, home care agencies with vaccine mandates and with appropriate TTP, it looks like prioritising people with disabilities in vaccination mandates and just making sure that they have the support and services that they need to be protected. I mean,

MG: the other part of this, Mario was talking about how she hasn't been able to see her specialist doctor in a couple of years. The day to day supports that people rely on haven't been available. So how do you how do you ensure that she can go to the doctor and be safe or go to class and be safe in the context of of loosening restrictions?

HILARY BROWN: Hmm. It's a complicated issue, because I think it's also related to a health care system that's very much overwhelmed and that's what's really, you know, resulting in delays in being able to seek medical care and being able to have tests and treatment for various different things. So I think it's all part of a broader system that we need to make sure that, you know, our vaccination rates are high, that people have access to good masks, that people have access to the supports, financial support, community social services that they need because otherwise you're right, the health care system does get overwhelmed. So I think it's part of a a large system level strategy that's needed.

MG: I guess the frustration and he heard it again in the conversation is that we're a couple of years into this, that this isn't the beginning of the pandemic. This is well into the pandemic and there's still these issues that are presenting themselves. Are you surprised by that?

HILARY BROWN: Sadly, no, I mean, I'm not surprised in the sense that, you know, people with disabilities and advocates have been calling for change since the beginning of the pandemic, and we haven't seen much of a response on a political level. Think and again, I think that goes back to a historical lack of prioritisation of people with disabilities and health care. So we are seeing this at the forefront now in the pandemic. But this is not a new story. You know, this is something that people with disabilities have been experiencing in health care and in society for for a long, long time. So in that sense, I'm not surprised, but I do hope that the attention that this issue is starting to get now, I do hope that that will lead to positive change.

MG: I hope so. Hilary, good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Hilary Brown, assistant professor in the University of Toronto in the Department of Health and Society and co-author of a new study on the impacts of COVID 19 on people with disabilities. That study, published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. That's The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q Tom Power speaking with Brian Cox. Logan Roy on HBO's Succession He of the Extraordinary Insults. It's Monday. Last Monday, Susanna Hoffs of the Bangles posted a lovely little video on social media of her playing a song that was perfect. Kind of just like a cleanse for all of the things that we have been living through. We thought perhaps you would do with that kind of cleanse to start your week off on the good foot. This is The Bangles. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. See you tomorrow!

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The Current Transcript for February 7, 2022

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Ottawa declares state of emergency as protest enters second week

First Nations in B.C. preparing bid for 2030 Olympics

Canadians with disabilities say ‘living with COVID’ isn’t an option for them

Monday February 7, 2022 Full Transcript

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