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The Current Transcript for February 7, 2020

Host: Matt Gallaway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been a tough start to 2020. There has been a lot of bad news. Would you like something to celebrate? Ladies and gentlemen, your Toronto Raptors. More on a championship team still flying high. Coming up an hour from now. After that, a look at a huge election weekend in Ireland, a potential changing of the guard and the return of a familiar political name. And also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

My whole life is gone. Your motivation for living, your happy daughter next store, your wife. They've gone for nothing. That's the main thing that bothers us. Why?

MG: It has been a month since Ukrainian Airlines Flight 752 was shot out of the sky over Iran. The pain for those at the centre of this story is still raw. This morning, a powerful conversation with two family members about loss, grief and a frustrating search for answers. We begin, though, with Canadians coming home from China and heading straight into quarantine. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

Canada playing global role with coronavirus quarantine — but ethics expert urges support for people confined

Guests: Maxwell Smith, Patty Hajdu

SOUNDCLIP

MEGAN MILWARD: We're thrilled that we're both here together and the kids are really excited because they're moving walkways and vending machines and things to keep them busy. So everybody is in a pretty good mood. We're very relieved that we're going to be able to get back to Canada, where should anything happen, there's ample medical care.

LIE ZHANG: So we are very happy, we are grateful for coming back to Canadian soil.

MG: It's Megan Milward and her husband, Lie Zhang, just before they got on a flight from China back to Canada yesterday. They're flying with their two children and 172 other Canadians. The federal government sent that plane to bring them home. And the plane landed early this morning at the Canadian military base in Trenton, Ontario, where those onboard will immediately begin a 14 day quarantine. Patty Hajdu, who is Canada's minister of health. Patty Hajdu, good morning.

PATTY HAJDU: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Walk us through how this is going to unfold. The Canadians arrived in Trenton. Who meets them there?

PATTY HAJDU: So we have a variety of officials from both provincial and federal levels of government that will meet them there to do both the processing from sort of country entry place and also from a medical perspective. They'll receive a brief screening when they arrive. And I understand they've just touched down. These families will be extraordinarily tyred. So the brief screenings just kind of check in to make sure that they're feeling okay and then they'll be shown to their rooms where they'll be able to rest for a while and then a more detailed screening after they wake up.

MG: There were medical officials that were on the plane with the passengers in case anybody began to show symptoms during this long flight.

PATTY HAJDU: Yes, there were. There were medical professionals from the Canadian armed forces that were assisting along the way. And fortunately, no one showed symptoms on the plane. So no one had to disembark at the fuelling station in Vancouver after that brief screening.

MG: As you mentioned, they're shown to their rooms. It's not as though they're going into a hotel. They're going into quarantine. How was that 14 day quarantine period decided upon?

PATTY HAJDU: So obviously, I work very closely with the chief public health officer and she is part of a special committee that was struck right around the time that she noticed the cluster of increased pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan, China. So, luckily, since the episode of SA's 17 years ago, we've got a sophisticated level of collaboration. And so together with the best public health advice from the chief public health officer in the provincial public health officers, the 14 day quarantine was decided upon out of an abundance of caution.

MG: Will everyone be tested for the virus or only if they show symptoms?

PATTY HAJDU: Only if they show symptoms, they'll be tested for the virus. There is a very small chance that a test can show a false negative. So we certainly don't want to, you know, utilise tremendously as a as a way to sort of rely on it. But we also want to be utmost certainty that we know what we're dealing with as someone becomes ill.

MG: What is life going to be like for them in quarantine over these 14 days?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I mean, I thought the opening clip was a good example of what people have been going through in Wuhan. I mean, you know, the woman spoke about her children's excitement to see vending machines and walking sidewalks, are moving sidewalks. I think, you know, there's been a level of boredom for people that are stuck in their apartments or rooms. And I think they've got two more weeks of have not a lot of activity. But we do have mental health counsellors on site. We've got people to help with social supports. We've got play centres for families to utilise. So although the passengers won't be interacting with each other, there will be opportunities for them to leave the room and entertain their children. And of course, all that will be coordinated with the health officials that are there.

MG: Are they allowed to go outside at all?

PATTY HAJDU: Not outside of the CFB Trenton area. And in terms of the outdoors, I have not seen the facility yet. But I will be there in the early week, early days next week to visit the primarily to thank the workers, but also to visit.

MG: But they won't be at Dupont. They won't be able to interact with other people who are in this quarantine, other people that were on the flight with them, for example.

PATTY HAJDU: That's right. We're keeping family units intact, of course. But individuals who are travelling will be quarantined in their own room.

MG: How often would they be checked for fevers and symptoms over the course of that 14 days?

PATTY HAJDU: So they'll be constantly monitored daily, at least checks. But obviously, they'll be medical professionals on site as well if anyone is exhibiting any early symptoms. I think one of the things we've come to realise through the growing body of evidence around this particular virus is that although, you know, there's, you know, some reports of asymptomatic spread, what has become clear is that, in fact, those might have been people with very mild, mild symptoms. And so we'll be watching for things like coughs and runny noses, fevers, general malaise or even soreness of joints, the kinds of things that you might be feeling if you're just getting a common cold.

MG: Well, that's the thing. You mentioned Dr. Tam, the chief public health officer. She said that this could also manifest itself as a cold and. Wonder whether there's a way to distinguish between the virus and somebody who has a runny nose because they were on a long flight and they have it is cold season?

PATTY HAJDU: And that's the abundance of caution piece. So if anyone's exempting exhibiting any symptoms of even what we would consider a common cold, then they'll be tested for the virus. Look, the object of the quarantine is the containment of the disease within Canada and obviously our global contribution to containing the spread widely across the globe. And so, you know, every symptom will be monitored and people will be checked if they have any of those symptoms that are associated with the illness.

MG: And if somebody does test positive for the Corona virus, what happens then?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, they'll be transferred, using infectious disease protocols to the local health authorities who will hospitalized them and keep them under hospitalization and monitoring them until such time that they're free of the virus.

MG: What sort of protections are being offered for the health care workers who are taking care of those who have arrived now back in Canada?

PATTY HAJDU: This is obviously another big lesson learned during SARS in the need for protection for people that are working with folks with a virus that's unknown and that doesn't have any sort of antidote. It's of utmost importance. So they'll be they'll be provided with all of the protective gear that they need according to the infectious disease protocols that have been developed through the period of SARS. And so, you know, the medical officers of health worked very closely together to determine what level of protection is needed.

MG: One of the other things and we've been talking about this over the last couple of weeks, one of the other things it seems that we learned during SARS was what quarantine and isolation is like for somebody. You mentioned the psychological supports that could be offered. What sort of assistance would be given to these travellers who are going to be sure they're with their families, but stuck and unable to move around for 14 days?

PATTY HAJDU: That's why I think it's so important to have counselling and mental health supports on site, not just because of the sort of isolation of the 14 days of quarantine, but these folks have been through a tremendous amount of stress and anxiety, worry, you know, boredom even. But if you think about sort of being in a city of 11 million people, that's on lockdown and you have no idea if you're going to be reunited with your family. Some families have been separated from their small children. This is obviously depending on the individual, the circumstances, a very stressful time. And yes, you hear the relief in the couple that you interviewed. And it was actually pretty joyous to hear them so happy to be coming home. But there are a bunch of people as well that will be leaving people behind and worried about them as well.

MG: And we've been hearing from people who are, as you say, leaving people behind. Monte Gisborne is worried about his family. He's in Coquitlam, British Columbia. His wife, Daniela, and a nine year old daughter are in Wuhan. He says that they're desperate to leave, but they weren't able to be part of this evacuation flight. Have a listen to him.

SOUNDCLIP

MONTE GISBORNE: I'm feeling like my family is being abandoned by my government. It's upsetting. This is my wife and daughter, not just two people I met yesterday and I want to help. This is serious. We are a family in every sense that term and permanent residents are virtually Canadian citizens. And according to Government Affairs Canada and other organizations, they are entitled to the same protection and human rights that a Canadian citizen would enjoy.

MG: Patty Hajdu what do you say to Monty Gisborne, who says that he feels like his family has been abandoned by this government?

PATTY HAJDU: Well, I know that Minister Champagne was able to get the Chinese authorities to concede to allowing a permanent resident to travel with a child who had Canadian citizenship. In terms of his own particular situation, what I can tell him is that the consular services are still there to help him and help him through the situation that he finds himself in and that his family finds himself in. We will not be able to, you know, repatriate certain citizens that permanent citizens that the Chinese government has said they will not allow to leave. That's the reality. Not to say that we don't continue to try and advocate and that continues with every conversation that Minister Champagne has.

MG: But that's out of your hands, in some ways, that's the purview of the Chinese government.

PATTY HAJDU: The Chinese government has control over what they consider dual nationals or Chinese citizens. And so we, as I said, continue to press them for permanent residents. But in this case, again, I would refer Mr. Gisborne to ensure these continually reaching out to consular services, because I know those folks are working incredibly hard to support people that are quarantined in the region.

MG: But the reality is they're not going to be able to leave.

PATTY HAJDU: Well, at this point, again, I don't know his particular circumstances. I know that they will continue to advocate for him and that is their job. And I know Minister Champagne is doing that at the political level as well.

MG: A couple of other things I want to pick up on. One is we have Canadians that are quarantined on these cruise ships in Hong Kong and Japan. They will have had 14 days of quarantine already. Will they be quarantined again when they return to Canada?

PATTY HAJDU: No. So they are quarantined under the quarantine act of that particular country, and so after that 14 day quarantine and where they are free to go, they will be considered not infectious.

MG: What is Canada doing to help the Canadians who have tested positive for the Corona virus on that ship? At least seven thus far.

PATTY HAJDU: We have consular services working with them to make sure that they're getting their needs met. Again, it's their quarantine under the Japanese quarantine law. And so we don't have authority to remove them from that particular quarantine. Just as if someone was quarantined in Canada, they would not be released because of another country's wish. And this is really about protecting the spread of the disease, you know, making sure that we do not allow the spread of the disease to continue unchecked. And so the way that we're supporting those folks is through the consular services that will ensure that they get what they need, whether it's medication or other supports.

MG: Health officials have called for travellers from Hubei Province to voluntarily quarantine themselves for 14 days. There are been calls for the government to take stronger measures, though, whether it's closing borders to recent travellers from China, as the United States has done, or to test all patients who are coming from China, not just from that that one province. How do you go about striking a balance between protection, but not overreaction, if I can put it that way?

PATTY HAJDU: I think the World Health Organization has given some really good recommendations to the world in terms of what works and what doesn't around infectious disease spread. And obviously, those recommendations are public. And one of them was and Dr. Tam speaks to this eloquently, about that border controls are the least effective way to contain the spread. And of course, we have to have screening and information and advice is, in fact, what the World Health Organization recommends. We've recommended that people who are coming from the Hubei region consider self isolation at home to help prevent the spread and to help monitor for those early symptoms because they can be so mild out of an abundance of caution. And that is really because the world is in a bit of a critical state right now in terms of how well we will be able to contain the virus. This is kind of where the virus will either peak or where it will actually decline. And so we're taking this measure to really be a global citizen and do our absolute best to contain the spread here in Canada. And, you know, so far, so good in Canada in terms of the number of cases. But the next weeks will really demonstrate to the world how well we've done together.

MG: Patty Hajdu, good to speak with you. Thank you.

PATTY HAJDU: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Patty Hajdu, who is Canada's minister of health. Protecting people from this Corona virus means that some people have to make sacrifices, whether it's those in quarantine or the health care workers who are taking care of those who might be in quarantine. My next guest looks at ethical issues involving treating and controlling outbreaks like this. Max Smith is a bioethicist assistant professor in the School of Health Studies at the Department of Philosophy at Western University, Max Smith. Good morning to you.

MAXWELL SMITH: Good morning.

MG: When you take a look at a quarantine situation like the one that people will be experiencing at CFB Trenton, what is the most ethical and responsible way of handling that situation?

MAXWELL SMITH: So that's a really good question. I think if we look back to what Minister Hajdu said, the purpose of acquiring team is principally to contain the disease. And so really, quarantine isn't for the benefit of the people that are actually being quarantined. It's actually for the benefit for the rest of Canadians and the world at large. And so I think the ethical issue here is to really acknowledge that those people being quarantined are actually discharging an ethical obligation of their own to make sure that the rest of us don't get sick. And so we in turn have a reciprocal obligation to make sure that they're supported in the best ways possible. And Minister Hajdu alluded to many of those supports that are there. You think of not just their basic necessities. You know, maybe employment status or care for their loved one. But certainly those psychosocial mental health as well as something you need to be very concerned about.

MG: But we are also asking as a nation to give up certain rights, freedom of movement, for example. How do you thread that needle to ensure that what we're asking them is commensurate with the risk that might be presented?

MAXWELL SMITH: So I think you only want to use those very restrictive public health counter measures when it's absolutely necessary and when there's evidence that suggests that will actually work. So as Minister Hajdu, you mentioned the fact that we know that many travel restrictions or border controls don't really work to effectively curb the spread of disease. Sometimes implementing those measures would be seen as unethical in that state. But I think there are measures that we do want to take, as you said, do actually curb our liberties, our freedom to move around and do the things we want to do. And so I think when we do feel it's necessary to implement those measures, we want to make sure that, you know, for people to actually comply with them. And for these to be effective, we as the state also need to [unintelligible] our obligations to support them. Our.

MG: Doing much different in China, where there are new, more aggressive quarantine measures announced yesterday, including house to house searches, housing the sick in these sort of makeshift quarantine camps that are springing up. How comfortable are you with what's happening there?

MAXWELL SMITH: Yes, I mean, that's a little concerning to me. Of course, at the epicentre of the disease, you would expect more aggressive countermeasures than we're seeing in Canada, for instance. But I think, you know, with a lot of these measures put in place, sometimes they're not necessarily put in place to curb the spread of the disease per say, even though they may be effective at doing that. But oftentimes they're put in place to curb fear. Right. Or at least to give the impression that the government is in control and is doing something about the outbreak.

MG: It goes back to the piece that I was asking Patty Hajdu about at the end where people might want stronger measures to be taken place. There are different, obviously, you're in a different context, Canada versus China. And I just wonder how that plays into how those decisions are made.

MAXWELL SMITH: Yes, I think we need to contextualise the sorts of policies or measures that we put in place. There's certain really important ethical questions about how we might set priorities for allocating ventilators or hospital beds that are very, very important right now in China, that those aren't questions that we're facing yet in Canada. There are things that we need to think about. And of course, after SARS and the influenza pandemic in 2009-10, we thought about a lot of those questions in advance so we can sort of rule out those protocols if that were to come to Canada and such a big way like it as in China. But really, the questions that we need to think about now are how can we curb the spread of disease if it were to come here? And I think we're all doing a great job of, you know, having normal hygiene practices. But also we need to think about how do we support others who may be repatriating to Canada or to other parts of the world that may need our help.

MG: Do we have an ethical responsibility? We heard from a family member who doesn't have, you know, the ability with wife and child to get on that plane. Do we as Canadians and does the government have an ethical responsibility to those people?

MAXWELL SMITH: I think they do. I mean, I think we have, you know, Canada has a responsibility to protect and promote the health of Canadians. And one could argue that, you know, repatriating those individuals would be part of fulfilling that ethical obligation. But, of course, that's not really Canada's decision to make. As Minister Hajdu, you mentioned, the mechanisms or provisions around the repatriation were really decided by a Chinese official. And Canada sort of has to just follow those provisions and perhaps advocate on Canadians behalf. But unfortunately, we don't have a world government. So it's very difficult to coordinate exactly what the right way to do this is on a global level.

MG: The other issue, just finally in the last minute that we have is, is around the consensus on obligations of health care workers in a situation like this. There's that idea of duty to care. How do we figure out what that duty is in this situation?

MAXWELL SMITH: Yes. That's kind of played out in a couple of different ways. One, you might expect some absenteeism from health care workers because they're most proximal to the virus and may be most likely to contract the disease. And on the other hand, you see health care workers travelling from across China in order to help. And so I think when we want to know, if we want to say that health care workers have an obligation and ethical obligation to provide care and treat those that are sick, then we need to support them in some way as well. Make sure that they have personal protective equipment, make sure that we're supporting their mental health needs as well. So you don't have cases where they're burning out or getting sick because they are not properly protected.

MG: And this is something just finally that we did learn through SARS.

MAXWELL SMITH: That's absolutely right. I mean, we saw some absenteeism, but we hadn't thought through really how to support our health care workers in that serious context.

MG: Max Smith, it's great to talk to you about this as the story unfolds. Thank you.

MAXWELL SMITH: Thanks very much.

MG: Max Smith is a bioethicist and assistant professor in the School of Health Studies and the Department of Philosophy at Western University. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

My daughter was the sweetest girl ever. I think she was she was a sporty gear. She was sore character and very funny. Very funny. I miss her every day. Several times she asked me before why you moved to Canada. Then I said, you know, I want you to be away from war, from tensions. She understood that. She understood the whole sorry wave and moved to Canada. She was the best for me.

MG: Remembering a remarkable nine year old girl. It has been a month since Flight 752 were shot down in Iran. Coming up after the break, I'll speak with family members who lost loved ones. We'll talk about grief. We'll talk about loss. And we'll talk about the anger that they have and trying to find answers as to what happened and why it happened. It is an extraordinary conversation. You'll want to stick around for that. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One.

One month after the Flight PS752 crash, families still want answers from Iran

Guests: Rehana Dhirani, Hamed Esmaeilion

Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

MG: [Music: Theme].

Still to come, Ireland votes tomorrow and a new opinion poll shows a pretty shocking frontrunner. You'll hear all about it in 30 minutes. But first, remembering the lives lost on Flight 752.

MG: [Music: Theme].

Tomorrow, it will be one month since Iran shot down a Ukrainian airlines flight, killing everyone onboard. Investigations are ongoing, but families are looking for answers. And the mourning continues right across this country. Today, I'm joined by two family members whose loved ones were killed on that flight. Hamed Esmaeilion lost his nine year old daughter Reera and his wife, Parisa. And Rehana Dhirani lost her father, Ali Asgar Dhirani, Hamid and Rihanna. Join me in studio. Good morning.

MG: Good morning.

REHANA DHIRANI: Good morning.

HAMED ESMAEILION: I'm sorry for your loss and what your families have been through.

MG: Thank you.

REHANA DHIRANI: Thank you.

HAMED ESMAEILION: How are you doing? Rehana?

MG: It's the other day it was one month since I last spoke to my father. He called me on my way to dropping off my son to soccer. So just this last Tuesday, as I was driving my son to soccer, I had to pull over and cry because I know that I can never, ever speak to the man who made me who I am today ever again. And that for me, it's just devastating. I cry myself to sleep every night and I wake up every morning with tears. And I'll sit there during the day and look at my phone and I still text him, even though he doesn't answer. I text him every single day and I want that response. It doesn't come.

REHANA DHIRANI: Hamed, for you? What's this unimaginable month been like for you?

MG: Yes, has been very hard so far. You know, my mourning, actually, I started two weeks ago after I came to Canada. For the first two weeks, I had to fight when I when I went back to Iran to repatriate them to Canada. So I didn't mourn in Iran. I was just- So, but now I'm back to an empty house. And it's hard to cope with it. Every night, every morning, as Rehana said, every school time, like the school bus coming every morning at 7:30 but she's not there. I don't know. It's very hard. It's very hard. That's the only answer.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Tell me about your wife and your daughter. You wear a pin with them on your shirt.

MG: Yes. So we moved to Canada 10 years ago, almost nine and half when my daughter was six months old. My wife. She was very hardworking, dentist, very talented. She was my teacher. I told her over time that you're better than me. And my daughter was the sweetest girl ever. She was a sporty girl. She was a soccer girl. And very funny. Very funny. You know, I miss her everyday.

HAMED ESMAEILION: You sound really proud when you talk about her.

MG: Yes. Because, you know, when she asked me several times, she asked me before why you moved to Canada Dad. And I said, you know, I want you to be away from war, from tensions. She understood that, understood the whole story. Why we moved to Canada. She was the best for me.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Tell me about your dad, Rehana.

MG: Every winter I would ask my dad, Dad, of all the countries in the world. Why did you pick Canada? It's so cold. Come on, man, give me a break. He was like, Rihanna, Canada is the best place to be. It is where you can be who you are and you're safe. And to me and throughout this process, and I'm not ready to call it a journey yet because I'm not there yet. But throughout all this, people will say to me, you know, there's a special bond and you can see this between a father and a daughter. And I had that with my dad.

REHANA DHIRANI: Yes, I'm sure.

MG: I did.

REHANA DHIRANI: What was he doing in Iran?

MG: So my parents run religious tours. So they do. Iran, Iraq, Syria and Mecca and Medina. So he decided at the last minute to go on a trip with my mom. And then my mom took a different airline. And because he booked so late, he could only get on the Ukrainian airline.

REHANA DHIRANI: Your wife and daughter were in Iran for what reason, Hamed?

MG: It was like four months ago that Parisa book tickets to go to Iran for engagement party. That was my sister in law's kind of wedding or engagement. It was a hard decision to make. You know, at the beginning I said you have to go and you have to take Reera with yourself because that's her aunt and she would regret if she is not there. You know, we re leaving Canada with most of our families earning Iran so they get married, somebody is sick, somebody passes away. So we have to go. But a month later, when tensions are started in Iran and there were protests in the street, it was November, I kind of changed my mind. And I tried to speak to Parisa, Parisa can you not just go? Yes. We had a discussion a few times. You know, I don't regret that, you know, that was her decision to go. And my decision too, at the end of the day we said, okay, you have to go because you have to be there. And now when you're mourning, you think about it this stuffs and you think, could I have stopped that or could I do something? So in the last conversation we had was a day before they were getting ready to go to the airport. And I was at work, so I had no time to chat. And they said, okay, see you tomorrow. And I went home. You know, actually, before I go home after work, I heard the news that Iran has attacked the U.S. bases in Iraq. And I got very, very worried. And I said, airport is not safe now. And I went home. So I checked the Ukrainian website and I saw at 5:15 that they flew. And two hours later, they're in the air and I said, okay, so they're out of the country now. That was the last conversation. I texted them, okay, my dear, I'm happy that you left the airport. See you tomorrow. Love you. The message was not seen.

HAMED ESMAEILION: How did you learn that something happened?

MG: Yes, I was. I was cleaning the house. I was sure that they're safe and they're coming. So two or three hours later, I didn't check my phone, actually, they said, you know, just make everything ready for the girls. And then I went and checked my phone and they saw seven missed calls from Iran. I directly went to BBC Persia. I put, you know, the boarding passes were on my email. So I knew the flight number and everything. And they saw that the plane, like, crashed. I can't even think about that moment, you know, because I'm now I'm writing the book, not a memoir or something, but they can't even get close to that moment.

HAMED ESMAEILION: What about you, Rehana? When did when did you learn after that call that something was wrong?

MG: I had a hard time sleeping that night and then my brother called me. And when you get a late night phone call, you know, it's never good. So he called me and he goes, Rehana, what's Dad's flight number. And like, I don't know. I go what's wrong. He's like, there's been an accident. I've got to go. So I jumped up and I checked my phone. And my mom has a friend who contacted my cousin who lives in Iran. And I see they called me. So I call them and I'm like, what's going on? He goes, there's been accident. And I think right then I knew, I knew and I must have made some type of noise because my husband, who's a very deep sleeper, woke up and he's like, what's happening? And because we didn't know the flight number. Right, like we didn't know the flight number. So my brother had to call around, get the flight number. And he's like, but they're not saying - I call - and he's like, they're not saying what the flight number is. I can't figure it out. So I went on Twitter and I'm like, is Dad's flight number at PS 752? And he said, yes, I go, that's, that's the plane that went down. But I think the worst was the fact that my mom didn't know. She didn't know because she took a flight earlier. She was on an Emirates flight. So she found out when she was getting her baggage in Toronto. She turned on the phone and she looks at her WhatsApp messages and everyone's like, you know, patience. We're so sorry for your loss. And so she calls me like, Rehana. And I'm like, Mom. She goes, what happened to daddy? I'm like, Mom, it's okay. It's okay. She goes, Rehana. And then she's coming through customs and she looks at this customs office and they're like, Ma'am, are you okay? She goes. What happened? Was there a plane crash? And then they looked at her, she goes, my husband is on a Ukrainian airline. Tell me what happened. And they're like, there was a crash. And I could see that the doors opening and closing and the pain on my mother's face. The look of defeat from one of the strongest women I know as a customs officer is walking towards us. And she's crying and crying and crying and we're holding her. It's like we've got to bring him back. We're going to go and are going to bring her back. And we did. And we went and we brought him back and I call myself the weakest link because my mom and my brother are so strong and I feel so, so weak and so useless throughout this whole entire thing.

REHANA DHIRANI: Why would you say that?

MG: Because I cry a lot. You know, my brother doesn't cry. My mom, you know, when we go to the graveyard, she gets emotional, obviously. But, you know, it's- I sit there and I'll see someone with an Apple Watch. And I'm like my dad had an Apple Watch. And he wanted to get 10000 steps a day? No, he can't. I haven't turned my Apple Watch. It's just sitting on the bedside because I can't do it. And the fact that I can't talk to him or what I envision how he looked when he passed is still in my head. It's just devastating for me, and that's why I think I'm the weakest link, because I can't think beyond that yet.

REHANA DHIRANI: You're not. We saw in that in the hours and the days after this, not just the Iranian Canadian community, but people across the country sort of wrap their arms around your families and people who were going through this. And I just wonder what that was like.

MG: You know, it means a lot to me. You know, actually, when all this was happening in Canada, I was in Iran. I just could see the widows. You know, do you don't have any good Internet access in Iran so I had to go to a corner and just see what's happening here. So the vigils and the candles and you know, that was- you know, Iranian people were sad, too, in Iran, but they didn't let them to mourn. But here was like, here is a free country. So you could do that. And that was something that kept us alive, I think.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Tell me what happened in the taxi on the way down here. You were in a cab on the way here.

MG: Yeah. It was a Iranian, Iranian taxi driver. He says something about Richmond Hill and the police officers and the traffic. And I said, I don't know. It's like two weeks I haven't drove, and he said, Why? And I said, you know, I lost my wife and my dog. That's my identity now. I lost my wife and my daughter in a plane crash. So everywhere I go, even the first two days when I was in the airports alone in Frankfurt, in Baku, Azerbaijan, that was my identity. I couldn't laugh to their jokes. I couldn't walk. I couldn't. So. And when they stare at me, people, I say, yes, my wife and my daughter were on that plane. So everybody understood. So we said the same thing in the taxi. You know, mostly political. Everything goes back to politics for us. Because it's not just grief. We suffer from loss. Yes, that's part of it. But we suffer more from the rage and from anger. We have no response for what happened. We still are confused. And I've received thousands of messages. I've hugged hundreds of people in Iran. Here in Canada. But at the end of the day, you're alone. That's my approach to this. You know, when you go to bed and you just think, think, think about your good memories, all of them are good memories. Actually, we were a happy family here. And it's very hard to go through this. It's very hard. You know, you think that you're in the darkness and there's no light. You know, you have this, you know, you have to be optimistic. I understand that. But my whole life, you know, I'm thinking that the whole life is gone. So your motivation for leaving your happy daughter next door, your wife, and they're gone.

HAMED ESMAEILION: You both went back to Iran to bring your family members back here. Tell me about the trip back to Iran.

MG: So I don't know if you had a chance to revisit the crash site.

REHANA DHIRANI: No, you did?

HAMED ESMAEILION: We did. And they let us go inside.

REHANA DHIRANI: Okay.

HAMED ESMAEILION: It's been cleaned up.

REHANA DHIRANI: [Scoffs].

HAMED ESMAEILION: But you can still see where the fence had come down. A child's slide had been broken. We met someone who lived nearby that spoke English and told us what they heard and what they saw. You know, you walk around and you wonder because there's videos and fences and, you know, you know how they're lying. And you're wondering all comes down to: did they feel pain? And that's the biggest thing. Did they feel pain? So we were able to have, I think, maybe a bit of a different experience being able to with Iran assistance and we were able to bring my father's remains back within a week, which we understood was not really - that's a surprise that we're able to do everything in a week.

REHANA DHIRANI: What about for you Hamed? What was your experience like in going back.

MG: I left Canada right away, you know, like probably twelve hours after the news came up. I was in the airport again. So I went to this site. We went to Baku Azerbaijan and I was alone in Baku Airport and nobody was there sitting on the chair. And there was one of these airport, I don't know, somebody was working there and was passing and he had stopped by and he said, you're that man, aren't you? And I said, yes. He said, condolences.

HAMED ESMAEILION: You knew what he was saying when he said that man?

MG: Yes.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Why was it important for you to go back? Because not everybody did.

MG: I think Parisa needed me. You know, at that time they went that was a technical failure in my mind. So technical failure happened. Okay, you have to accept that. Go and be there with your family. And I had to hug my mom and my mother in law, actually. I couldn't leave without doing that. So I had to go. But took me like 48 hours to get there. And exactly when I got there one hour later, they announced that they shut down the airplane. And at that moment, I said we have to take them back to Canada. And that was the family decision. And then the rest of the two weeks, I was restless to just do my, you know, reach my goal.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Bring them home.

MG: Yes.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Before I continue, can I offer- do you want more water? Can I get you some more water?

MG: No. But what I did was I brought my dad's ring that we were able to- so I don't know if you wanted to see it.

REHANA DHIRANI: So, you were able to get that from them?

HAMED ESMAEILION: Yes.

REHANA DHIRANI: How? I don't even have one. They took the ring from my wife's finger.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Tell me about what would you have there? What is that?

MG: So when we went to go and see my dad at the morgue as best as we could, he was already there. It was a closed coffin, obviously. So we asked if they had any remains leftover or any, not remains, any items, personal items. So based on the DNA testing, there were two rings that they found. Some of the other items were gone. So my brother took one ring and I took one ring. But there is a picture, my father that we took, someone took, on the last day of his life before he boarded that plane. And you can see the ring in that picture. And this is the ring that my father had on.

REHANA DHIRANI: In this last month, there has been a lot of talk about what is or isn't happening when it comes to an investigation into how this happened, and what cooperation there is or isn't between the Iranian government and those who are investigating this. And you both have a wry smile on your face as I talk about this, because, you know, well, in some ways how poorly this was going. What is it like for you to watch this? What is it like for you in this in this month as this investigation kind of unfolds?

MG: So when it first happened, I chose not to read anything about it. I think it's just too hard. And then suddenly when they talked about the missiles, then the second missile that came out, then I'm like, I need to I need to start looking into this. I need to start reading it. And then I watch the video and I said, okay. So the first missile hit at the front of the plane, my dad decide to upgrade himself to business class. So here's where the first missile hit. Done. Okay. So there goes dad right there. Then a second missile hit. You're like, okay. And then you're like, okay, so what's the next steps? What are they doing about this? And I just feel like it's a never ending story. There's no end. There's always like new developments coming up, new things happening. And I don't know if closure is going to be something that we will truly have.

REHANA DHIRANI: Do you have any confidence in, and maybe you need to be careful in how you say this, I'm not sure, but do you have confidence in Iran to lead this investigation for you to find those answers?

MG: It's not easy. Because, you know, it's actually not in the news anymore either. It's kind of disappeared unless you really start hunting for it. So I question what's happening with it. Why? Why aren't people focussing more on it?

REHANA DHIRANI: About for you Hamed. you talked about anger and you talked- there's grief, but there's anger as well.

MG: You know, just saying hunting for a news. I'm a news Hunter, if I have confidence that the Iranian government, they would do something. Iranian regime. Actually, I don't see government. No, the answer is no. And this is a message, I think, for Canadians that the Iranian regime is not going to cooperate because the way this happened, there is a mystery behind this. Nobody knows that. If you go to Iran and ask like ordinary people what happened. Everybody says that was intentional. There is no proof for us yet. But, you know, when they don't give the black box, when then they don't cooperate with the airline or Canada or Ukraine. Why? So when this aeroplane crashed for police to get there, it took them 25 minutes and all the belongings of the passengers are gone. And after three days. Okay. Lying, lying, lying. But. Everybody knew that at the very first day, even like ordinary employees of the airport knew that. How the president didn't know that? And so they claim, you know, I don't believe that story. I don't buy it. So there should be an investigation.

HAMED ESMAEILION: What do you want from, not just Canada, but from the international community, when it comes to that investigation, when it comes to how the world should react to what happened?

MG: They have to push them to do that. Who you can blame? It just the Revolutionary Guard. And I think, you know, I don't separate them from the government. Everybody is working together. I mean, I'm sure that the president knew that. I'm sure the foreign minister knew that. They just cover up. They just cover up. They worked together to not give us the news for three days. And after three days, lying to the people and to the to the families, you know, it was not just lying. They laughed at us. Why?

HAMED ESMAEILION: In the eulogy that you gave for your wife and for your daughter. You talked about justice.

MG: Yes.

HAMED ESMAEILION: You talked about justice again and again and again. And I'm just wondering, what is that? Given what you've just said, what does that word mean to you? How do you define justice?

MG: You know, I think this is not the human error. It's a systemic failure. And it's not just one person behind this. You know, we suffer everyday. We hear something and we suffer from that. And, you know, when you see that they don't give the black box? Ok, there is no healing for us.

HAMED ESMAEILION: What about for you, Rehana? What does justice look like in a story like this?

MG: That's a hard one. I just want the truth. But will the truth really helped me or my family in their emotional struggle right now? I don't know.

REHANA DHIRANI: You're both incredibly brave people to come and talk to us and you have, you've done great justice to the lives of your family members. You've been through a lot. And I'm sorry again for your loss, but I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

MG: Thank you.

REHANA DHIRANI: Thank you.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Hamed Esmaeilion lost his nine year old daughter, Reera and wife Parisa on Ukrainian Airlines Flight 752. Rehana Dhirani lost her father, Ali Asgar Dhirani. We spoke with them yesterday. It was a long conversation and a very emotional one. And you can hear more of it on our new podcast. It's called The Current Weekly. You can download that wherever you get your podcasts. This is the current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. We're back in a moment.

Raptors on the rise

Guests: Morgan Campbell, Sonali Karnick

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Cheers]

Pascal, good job. [Unintelligible] At a bounce, along the sideline. [Unintelligible] Raptors win. What a sequence at the end of the game.

[Cheers]

MG: The Raptors in. You can get used to hearing that and people have the Raptors are on a streak. Shhh. You do want to jinx it, though. This team has won a record breaking twelve games in a row. Toronto Raptors have the third best record in the NBA. Better than that team that Kawhi. Remember him? Kawhi Leonard. That team that he now plays for. And of course, the Raptors are defending champions in the NBA as well. All of that said, there are still doubters about this team. Why would that be the case? Sonali Karnick is with CBC in Montreal. And Olympic reporter Morgan Campbell is a sportswriter, formerly of the Toronto Star. Good morning to you both.

SONALI KARNICK: Good morning.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Good morning, Matt. Morning Sonali.

MG: Morgan, what do you make of the Toronto Raptors this season? This is a team that a lot of people had written off with the departure of Kawhi Leonard. And look at this. They're on a 12 game winning streak. What do you make of it?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Couple of things, Matt. Okay, you mentioned a couple of myths at the top. One there is no such thing as a jinx of talk about the streak. [Laughter] Streak go out and lose, but has nothing to do with whether or not we mentioned it. Jinx is our myth. And so is the idea of a defending champion in a non fight sport. They were last year's champion. This year as a new competition. You don't get- you don't enter this year's competition like with 20 extra weeks because you went last year. Like every year, you still got to kind of start from zero. And that's what makes this year's success so far so impressive because the best player on the team last year, the best player in the finals moved on to another team and you would expect naturally there'd be some type of progression. Especially since like the other core players, Marc Gasol. Kyle Lowry, the guys are like either in their 30s or another year older. But one of the things that's happened with the Raptors is that Pascal Siakam is another year better. Like this guy, legitimately, is a most improved, most improved player last year and like could conceivably turn around and win it again. Like he is still learning and growing in this game as a professional. So he's kind of help fill this void that Kawhi Leonard let's see what you have is a very well run organization and a well coached team and players who you didn't know were going to, you know, grow into these roles that he'd done it. And they've made a very smooth transition into their second season at the league's elite.

MG: Sonali Karnick.

SONALI KARNICK: Well, maybe that did happen because the management and the coaching had planned for this and they knew that that talent was there. And now is their time to shine. Now is their time to step up and get the attention. And they're seen as opportunities and seizing them. There's no fear anymore. They have to go out and get it. And those players are doing it. They're seeing their chances and taking them.

MG: Sonali, you're in Montreal. And I know that there's no rivalry whatsoever between Toronto and Montreal. We're the best of friends.

SONALI KARNICK: No.

MG: Are people on the streets of your city glued to the Toronto Raptors this year?

SONALI KARNICK: I'm not going to stay glued. Like, let's just face it, hockey is king here. I'm going to say it's always going to be, but there is definitely more attention to it. I think basketball players in this province felt a little bit more vindicated after the Toronto Raptors won the championship. And, you know, Montreal has tried a number of times to romance an NBA franchise here. It's never worked. You know, it's a dream that I think that this city has had for a long time. We could go into the financial viability of that, the possibility of a major league baseball team coming here. Sports is like a radio drama in the city. Most of the time. So, you know, I think they did. They appreciated it. I think now there's just more vindication to show more Raptors games in sports bars. Whereas before, even when the [unintelligible] weren't playing, it was still hockey in the sports bars. But now when somebody says, hey, can we watch the Raptors game? I think there's more attention to that. More people are paying attention to that.

MG: Which is interesting because when the team was on its championship run last year, there was this thing that was developed that it's not just a team from Toronto, that it's Canada's team. In some ways, you wonder whether people still feel that, whether people coast to coast to coast. Look at this team as a Canadian team.

SONALI KARNICK: I will tell you this. Anytime there was a French clip from Pascal Siakam coming out anywhere. The tweets that this got from Francophone Quebeckers was incredible. The love he was shown were it was incredible. They were so appreciative that someone would speak French on a Canadian team. You know, people were saying things like there are eight million francophones in Canada. Thank you for talking to us. You know, I'm from Cameroon. Also, thank you for speaking my language to me. Like, it's just an acknowledgement that there is something wider there than what's happening in Toronto.

MG: Morgan, tell us, if you look at the team, the team is having fun. The players are having fun. But there's also this expectation that no matter whether you saw this in the game where they're trying to beat that winning streak, the team is down. They expect to win and the fans expect them to win. What's going on in that team?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: I don't know. I personally have not covered the team like since last year. But I will tell you this, this is professional sports. These are very good players. If you don't expect to win, then you should probably find another job. And what you have is a group of people whom you know, the guys who were there last year, won last year. The guys that are new this year are coming into an organization that is used to winning. And they know it's not like a team that wins the championship and then decides they have to rebuild. This is a team that won the championship last year heading into this year, fully expecting to contend again so that the new people coming into this team, whether the draft picks free agents, whatever, are still being integrated into a team that wants and expects to win. So there's no lag. There's no having it like the new guys acclimated to this idea that you're just supposed to go out there and win almost every night.

MG: People trace that right up to the front office and they'll say that it's the president of the team, Masai Ujiri, who has built not just the franchise, but has built the culture around this team, a sense of competing and trying to get to the highest level. He was in the news this week, not for all of that, but after rumours that he might leave and he might end up perhaps in New York. New York Knicks long-time terrible team have all sorts of money and we're trying to lure him there, apparently. The talk is he may not go, but it seems to be this constant narrative that as well, as you might be doing in Toronto and in Canada, there are greener pastures elsewhere. Sonali, How do you see a team like the Raptors pushing back against that narrative that winning in Canada is fine, but it's in Canada?

SONALI KARNICK: Well, first of all, I am just getting over my heart attack that Masai Ujiri might leave the Raptors. So, [sighs].

MG: Deep breaths.

SONALI KARNICK: Yes, I know. Right? But I think it is. Yes, of course. This was extremely important for Canada, for the Raptors to win the championship. The fact is the bigger market is in the U.S. and that's if you are a basketball player, you want to be there. You know, whether or not you do well in Canada, that is where you want to be. The attention is bigger, maybe the salaries bigger. The opportunities might be better there, you know, post career. It just depends on what the athlete really wants for their entire career. And it looks like most of that is in the U.S. I mean, it's sort of sad to say, but, you know, Canada has done a fantastic job of cultivating this team and this team's culture in the country with basketball. But I'm not sure if that's translated to the U.S. I mean, I'll give you an example. You know, anytime there's an NBA team in the final, especially, you know, a high end team like we're talking about Golden State Warriors, the Lakers, they're on every late night talk show. They're on every daytime talk show. That didn't happen with the Raptors after they won. Jemmy Kimmel had a fun time. I mean, because the NBA playoffs were an ABC. That was his network. He had a fun time making fun of Canada, sent a crew to Toronto and tried to get Canadians to trash talk. I don't know if you saw that.

MG: Yes. But we were very polite and our trash talking.

SONALI KARNICK: Well, I play girls basketball for years. Let me tell you, they didn't talk to me. But, it was it was just a big opportunity for people to kind of point out how nice Canadians are. And so it wasn't really like we didn't have Pascal Siakam. They didn't have Kyle Lowry on. They didn't have, you know, star players, the team on their shows. And I think that was, for me, kind of a little insulting. So you're going to have, you know, the San Antonio Spurs, when they won, they had them play out their top players on there. There was no attention given to the Raptors after they won. And I think that was a true sign for me that they're not going to get the same exposure as American teams.

MG: Morgan, there's been this narrative not just for the Raptors, Toronto Blue Jays when they were the World Series champions. Again, people said, but it's, I mean, they're Canadian team. It's not really the same sort of thing. Are those days coming to an end when it comes to sports?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: With the idea that people don't want to play in Toronto?

MG: Yes, I understand that that kind of inferiority complex perhaps the Canadians develop because of that narrative that players don't want to play in Toronto.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Yes, it's-- When people mentioned this, right, like they mentioned this narrative, this idea, this perception is out there without mentioning like without specifying where it comes from, without giving examples. It's out there and you supposed to react to it. Let's think about this. The Demar Derozan, currently a member of the San Antonio Spurs, when Masai Ujiri, Bobby Webster traded Demar Derozen to the San Antonio Spurs, Demar Derozen was crushed. He was gutted. But one thing he did not want to do with his career would leave Toronto. Demar Derozen is a guy born and raised in Compton, went to USC high profile American program has played for the United States internationally. So guys like American through and through and through and through, until he becomes a professional, comes to Toronto spends, I don't know how many years, seven, eight years here. So he fits the profile of a guy who should say to his team, thank you for letting me go back to United States, because I've been marooned up here in Canada all this year.

MG: And that's not what happened.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Yes, he was gutted. So now you can look at like Kawhi Leonard as an example of a guy who wins championship. Now, he went back home to the U.S., but Kawhi Leonard is just so different from every other person that's ever come through here. Like you cannot use him as an example. But one thing that athletes are learning and maybe in a lot of it, to Sonali's point earlier, when people come and interview Pascal Siakam and he can interview in French and he can interview in English and keep barking and interview in all these different languages. And a lot of the people who highlight the value of this non U.S. market are people who didn't grow up in the U.S. And so in that sense, Derozen is an ally. But he also came to see the value of playing here. But what players are starting to realise is that when you play in Canada, it's one thing, like New York is a very big market, but like all of Canada is a bigger market. And like all these American markets are not bigger because they're American. It's just American. Like you telling me you have more endorsement opportunities - no disrespect to Oklahoma City - you tell me you have more endorsement opportunities in Oklahoma City or Charlotte you would have Toronto. You would not. There is no way. And so what players are starting to realise is that Toronto is a big market and all of Canada is a big market. And like, it also depends on the level of player. So if you are like a LeBron James, Kevin Durant level, super elite player, then you just go where you want to go regardless. And some of that doesn't even have to do with the border. Like you go where you want to go within the United States.

MG: While winning helps as well. But before I let you go and I'll start with you, Morgan. This team is on the bounce, 12 wins in a row. A lot of basketball yet to be played. But how good is this team? Does it have a shot at challenging for another title?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: It has a shot at challenging for another title, like doing that and me saying right here that they're going to win or are two very different things. And again, the core of the team, you know, is another year older. They've had injuries up to this point. So you can say to yourself, okay, in the playoffs, if everyone's healthy, they'll go a long way. But at the same time, given the fact that like there have been injuries up to this point in the season, there's no guarantee there will be more injuries later in the season. And this is just something teams have to learn to live with. The Raptors have done a good job of it so far, but it is a very real factor. But in terms of them like being able to win a round or two in the playoffs, you know, make it to the conference finals, something like that, they're built for that.

MG: And Sonali, what is the runway look like for this team?

SONALI KARNICK: I think it's going to make it into the playoffs. And I think during the playoffs, especially in the first round, I'm going to look for the stars to emerge and I'm going to see how long those stars can actually last. If they can push this team forward and into the playoffs. But I think we'll make it there. And that's how far they're going to go. Big question mark. And I'm not jinxing anything.

MG: We aren't jinxing it. The team is good and they're on the streak. And maybe, maybe, maybe they will turn Montreal into a basketball town, not hockey town.

SONALI KARNICK: Ugh. You know. We've been down this road before.

MG: Maybe not. Good to talk to you both. Thank you.

SONALI KARNICK: Bye.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Anytime. Thank you.

MG: Sonali Karnick is with CBC in Montreal. Morgan Campbell, an award winning sportswriter in Toronto.

Irish reunification and the election

Guest: Mary McAuliffe

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. People in Ireland vote tomorrow in a national election and it comes at a turbulent time in the wake of Brexit. What is most surprising, perhaps at this point is who's leading in the polls.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I think Sinn Fein are doing a really good job of playing into the zeitgeist of all the things that people of my generation are really passionate about.

VOICE 2: Everyone I know is voting Sinn Fein's number one.

VOICE 3: That's awesome.

VOICE 2: We're gonna do this. It's time for change.

MG: Sinn Fein was previously the political wing of the Irish Republican Army. Joining me now to discuss tomorrow's vote and its possible impact is Mary McAuliffe, historian, assistant professor of gender studies at the University College, Dublin. Mary, good morning.

MARY MCAULIFFE: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what you just heard, particularly that idea that Sinn Fein represents something for a certain generation and the people are calling for change? Are you surprised to hear that?

MARY MCAULIFFE: Not now, not after 10 days of the polls showing consistently that Sinn Fein is topping the polls? I would have been surprised maybe six months ago when Sinn Fein had a bit of a dip in the polls and maybe they were polling at between 11 and 15 percent. Now they're up at 25 percent, but they have tapped in to that zeitgeist, actually. And they have tapped into the anxieties around housing, homelessness, the health care system which is creaking, the educational system, the enduring impacts of austerity politics, which began in 2008 with the crash and how the governments since then have helped a certain segment of society. There's no doubt there has been a recovery, but a large section of society is also being left behind.

MG: I guess maybe people are asking questions with the word surprise in it because Sinn Fein isn't even running a full slate of candidates.

MARY MCAULIFFE: No, no. Unfortunately for them, they didn't expect this poll topping position either, and they're not running enough candidates to take real advantage of it. So they won't be the biggest party in the next parliament or [unintelligible], but they may be in coalition in a coalition government or form the biggest opposition.

MG: Tell me more about the disenchantment that seems to be surrounding the two main parties Fine Gael and Fianna Fail?

MARY MCAULIFFE: Well, they are seen as much of a muchness. They're seen as, you know, the Tweedledum and Tweedledee of Irish politics. Fianna Fail have had a confidence and supply arrangement with Fine Gael, who have been in power for the last nine years now. But for the last four years, they've had this confidence and supply arrangement with a minority Fine Gael governments. And the reasoning was that we had to deal with Brexit and the negotiations, particularly after 2016, which your listeners may know were very protracted and very, very difficult. And we had to make sure there wouldn't be a hard border on the island of Ireland between Northern Ireland and the republic. And so at best, that worked. And I think the government thought Brexit would be a big issue, which it hasn't been in this election. And people are beginning to think there isn't much difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. One or the other of them have been in power since the foundation of the state practically. And they are what we call civil war politics. There are the parties that developed out of our civil war in 1923, and they have dominated politics. They've been the big beasts of Irish politics. But people are looking for real change. In common with many parts of the world. Fortunately, it seems in Ireland we're looking left for the change rather than to the extreme right.

MG: I've heard the particularly the youth support of Sinn Fein being described as a protest vote. Is that fair to say?

MARY MCAULIFFE: I wouldn't say it's a protest vote so much as a disenchanted vote. The polls indicate that while Sinn Fein might be on 25 percent on average between the age of 20 and about 40, they're upwards in the high 30s. Polling numbers for and also among first time voters that over 18 years they seem to be a young party who have captured the imagination. They're promising a huge programme of housebuilding because a lot of people between in the this age group are finding it hard to get on the housing ladder. Rental prices are enormous. Dublin is a very expensive city to live in. There's a lot of concentration of the new technology industries in Dublin. Rural Ireland is feeling left behind. A lot of young people feel they can't set up life and live in rural Ireland, which is a wonderful place to live, but it hasn't gotten the concentration of job creation that is necessary. And so Sinn Fein are promising these and people are thinking, well, they can't do much worse than the grad that have been there. Let's give them a chance.

MG: Those parties that are running against Sinn Fein are reminding voters of the party's history and its connection with the IRA. This has become an election issue as the party seems to climb in the polls. Have a listen here to Fianna Fáil leader Michael Martin.

SOUNDCLIP

Sinn Fein's justification for the IRA war is a continuing one. There never has really been any contrition. They also, to a large extent, they want to shove it down the throats of a new generation. In propaganda- in narrative about the atrocities that were carried out, which in my view serves to poison future generations in terms of the whole issue of, I suppose, nationalism, how we develop as a country, how we unite, reconcile.

MG: What do you make of that claim that Sinn Fein hasn't shown enough contrition?

MARY MCAULIFFE: Well, of course, the Fianna Fail and Fine Gael would both attack Sinn Fein on their association with the IRA, and they're saying that younger voters have forgotten the troubles in Northern Ireland. And I would argue that's a bit disingenuous. I don't think anybody has forgotten the troubles in Northern Ireland, but we've had the Good Friday agreement since 1995. The IRA have put aside their weapons. Yes, they're still legacy issues that need to be dealt with. And indeed, one of them became an election issue in the last few days of a young man who was killed by the IRA or a suspected IRA members. And an apology was offered to his mother by Mary Lou McDonald, the leader of Sinn Fein. I think it doesn't- it's not that it doesn't matter to the younger voters. It hasn't the same import or impact with the younger voters.

MG: They're looking ahead more.

MARY MCAULIFFE: They're looking ahead. And they're more concerned with the bread and butter issues of housing and health care and homelessness and the growing inequality in terms of job creation and the wealth gap and all of those issues.

MG: That's all road sign. A photo of a road sign that said the solution to Brexit is Irish unity. And part of Sinn Fein's manifesto is about reunification with Northern Ireland. A, is that likely? And B, how much of an issue has that been in this campaign? The issue of unification?

MARY MCAULIFFE: Not as much as you would think. And I would never have thought reunification would have the courage in my lifetime. But now I'm not so sure. And I think it won't be because of Sinn Fein in many ways. It will be because of Brexit and particularly the economic impact of Brexit, which may be disastrous in Northern Ireland. You see, we don't know what Brexit is going to do. So, number one, that's why it's not an election issue. And number two, well, with the border now down the Irish Sea, in economic terms, the island is one. So that may rule on two practical reunification in the years to come.

MG: Is there a thrust for reunification? I mean again, if you don't want to make it too much about a generational thing, but in some ways, people have. Is there a real drive for those who are of a younger generation to see Ireland brought back together, if I can put it that way?

MARY MCAULIFFE: I wouldn't say there's a huge trust, and it's certainly not one of the top issues in the campaign. But I would say that the majority of the population would like to see Irish reunification. But in true a border poll and through people agreeing with us in a peaceful matter, not through violence again.

MG: What is the lot of the charismatic, if I can put it that way, Irish Prime Minister - Leo Varadkar, who is young, openly gay, multiracial, a story that got a lot of attention around the world and now he seems to be likely to get the boot in this election.

MARY MCAULIFFE: Well, I think it was more the international media that called him charismatic. That is not how he is regarded in Ireland. Yes, we were very you know, I thought it was great to have an openly gay, multiracial taoiseach, but he is a centre right politician. He has not delivered for those who need it most. He is regarded as continuing austerity politics that impact on many people. I mean, the claims he and his government made - that they delivered marriage equality in terms of same sex marriage and the right to abortion in terms of women's rights - is something that most activists dismiss, that they feel that this government leapt on that bandwagon when it was obvious that these issues were going to be winners. So Leo, as charismatic, is not really an Irish consideration.

MG: What kind of government do you expect to wake up to after Saturday, given these polls and given all of the things that you've talked about?

MARY MCAULIFFE: Well, for the first time ever, I am actually stopped as to what sort of government we will have, because this is a very new situation we find ourselves in. If asked to actually make a consideration, I would think it probably be a Fianna Fail Fine Gael governments again, maybe a Fianna Fail government, minority governments being kept in power by Fine Gael. And in many ways I think that would be damaging to both of them. Both of them have said they will not go into coalition with Sinn Fein. I think that was, you know, putting in place a red line that they really didn't need to, they're rejecting 25 percent of the electorates choice. So I don't know if the election will deliver a left leaning coalition as yes, but perhaps in the next election, I think it will be a generational, transformative shift in Irish politics.

MG: And the addition franchise meant that you've talked about that's not going anywhere.

MARY MCAULIFFE: The disenfranchised will continue.

MG: In terms of people feeling as though the parties that are there aren't representing them and representing their interests.

MARY MCAULIFFE: Oh, no. No. Absolutely not. And in this campaign, it was obvious. They have no new politics. They continue with the same politics saying, trust us, we've been delivering these politics. We'll keep doing the same thing. And people are just saying, no, we don't want the same thing. We want change.

MG: Mary, great to speak with you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

MARY MCAULIFFE: Not at all.

MG: Mary McAuliffe is a historian and assistant professor of gender studies at University College Dublin. That is The Current for today. Coming up on CBC Radio One it's Q. Laurie Brown is in the host chair and she will be speaking with Cathy Yan, director of the latest superhero blockbuster, It's Birds of Prey, the second film directed by her. Big job in terms of having a huge film like that. And you'll hear from her coming up on Q in just a few moments time. You can hear that and you can get caught up on anything that happened this week on The Current through the CBC Listen app. We have a new podcast that we've launched that you can listen to there or subscribe to wherever you find your podcasts. It's The Current weekly, covers and includes some of our favourite interviews over the last week. Again, find that on the CBC Listen app wherever you get your apps and your podcasts. We talked earlier about the Raptors and the winning streak that the team is on. But of a rivalry that's happening not on the court, but off. It's a rivalry about scarves. Serge Ibaka an OG Anunoby walked into Wednesday's game shrouded in big scars. Serge Ibaka wore a scarf that look more like a carpet or a comforter than a scarf. It was enormous. Why are they going neck to neck in this scarf battle? Take a listen. This is OG Anunoby challenging Serge Ibaka as Fashion King status in a video posted earlier this week. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. And we'll talk to you next week, from Vancouver.

SOUNDCLIP

SERGE IBAKA: Well, you know, I know me and you, we are different style.

OG ANUNBY: We are the same style.

SERGE IBAKA: No we're not the same style.

OG ANUNBY: We are the same style. I put you on how to dress.

SERGE IBAKA: You put me on?

OG ANUNBY: Yeah. You know I did. I put you on Valentino. I put you on denim jackets.

SERGE IBAKA: OG. Stop OG.

OG ANUNBY: Balenciaga one. Puts you on a hair impressive.

SERGE IBAKA: OG you say you put me on fashion? Wow!

OG ANUNBY: Your boots--

SERGE IBAKA: I'm done here. Don't do-- I don't do-- I'm done.

OG ANUNBY: put you on scarves.

SERGE IBAKA: You know, we're here today, OG.

OG ANUNBY: Didn't I put you on scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: If you say you put me in fashion, then we're done today.

OG ANUNBY: What about scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: We're done.

OG ANUNBY: But what about scarves.

SERGE IBAKA: OG, I'm telling you, if you say--

OG ANUNBY: What about scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: You put me in fashion, then I'm done.

OG ANUNBY: What about scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: I guess I'm done.

OG ANUNBY: But what about scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: I guess I'm done.

OG ANUNBY: But what about scarves?

SERGE IBAKA: There was never scarves, OG.

OG ANUNBY: You saw me in my scarf, you're like that scarf is fire. I'm gonna get one, too and you got one. Next time I was wearing mine, you had one too. You act like you did it first. But I had the scarf first.

SERGE IBAKA: Well, OG, okay, let me tell you something, okay...

Friday February 7, 2020 Full Transcript

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