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The Current Transcript for February 18, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I have been supportive, I have friends that are teachers, but I want my child to have an education.

MATT GALLOWAY: More than two million students in Ontario will be out of class on Friday. It's the latest disruption in ongoing labour disputes affecting the largest school boards in the country. As pressures mount over class sizes and the quality of education, we'll look at why some parents are now choosing private over public schools and whether public education itself is under threat. That's coming up in 30 minutes. And after that.

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VOICE: I mean, it's one thing if you have a secular organization that's doing that type of thing, but you have an organization that's doing that in the name of God. This is so wrong and needed to be stopped.

MG: Gospel for Asia is one of the largest religious charities in Canada. It now finds itself in hot water, accused of diverting donations meant for the poor. You'll hear our feature documentary, The Believers, coming up in an hour. But we begin with a roadblock for reconciliation, frustration growing across this country and a government wondering how to diffuse an increasingly tense situation. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Little concrete action in Trudeau's blockade speech, says Indigenous policy analyst

Guests: Russ Diabo, Marc Miller

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VOICE: I understand how worrisome this is for so many Canadians and difficult for many people and families across the country. We're going to continue to focus on resolving this situation quickly and peacefully, and that's what we're going to do.

MG: That's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking after an Incident Response Group meeting yesterday. That's a group of cabinet members and high level officials that the prime minister calls in on times of crisis. As anti-pipeline protests shut down railways and roads across this country, the Liberal government is under pressure to end the blockades, but it's unclear how or when the government will be able to diffuse the situation. Russ Diabo is a Kahnawake Mohawk Indigenous Policy Analyst and editor of the First Nation Strategic Bulletin. Russ, good morning.

RUSS DIABO: Good morning.

MG: You've been speaking with fellow Mohawks involved in this blockade. What are you hearing from them as this situation continues?

RUSS DIABO: Well, what I hear not just from the Mohawk Nation members, but also the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which goes down into Six Nations, is that they're supporting the Wet'suwet'en's position about getting the RCMP out of their territory and the Coastal Gaslink workers. And that's why they're they did the support actions they did and they're maintaining them until that happens. And I understand, my home community last night had a meeting between the Longhouse and the Mohawk Council, the elected band council, they all agreed with that position that they'll maintain that train blockage there until you know Wet'suwet'en get their issue resolved.

MG: As you mentioned, there are a lot of nations that are involved in this and I mean, there are a lot of issues that are swirling around this as well. If you boil it down, how did we get to this point do you think?

RUSS DIABO: Well, we got to this point because during the first mandate of the Trudeau government, they didn't deal with land issues. They focused on programs, you know, education, health, housing, infrastructure. You know, they put $21.4 billion into on reserve programs, but at the same time, the prime minister was telling everybody he was going to implement the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of indigenous peoples and in there are articles that say land should be restored, process should be set up jointly to adjudicate land rights, and if there is not restoration of lands, there should be restitution. But he didn't deal with those parts of the U.N. declaration and, you know, he could have said, well, you know, that's going to have to involve the provinces too, not just the federal government, but he didn't even mention that. He just focused on programs and he let the Wet'suwet'en languish and it's been languishing since, you know, the Supreme Court decision in 1997.

MG: So is this about a pipeline or has it become about something more than just the natural gas pipeline?

RUSS DIABO: Well, I think for the Wet'suwet'en and I think they represent a number of other Indigenous nations across the country, it's about their their title and rights. They haven't made a treaty with Canada and so there's that issue. That's what they went to court for in the Supreme Court of Canada in 1997. So they're outside of you know, they're demanding recognition for their title. So they're outside of Canada's land claims policy and they're also a hereditary traditional government, so they're outside of Canada's self-government policy. And so unless Canada changes its policy framework, they're going to have a hard time resolving the position that the Wet'suwet'en nation is taking.

MG: If you take a look at the blockade in eastern Ontario, what would it take to end that?

RUSS DIABO: Well, I think the Wet'suwet'en spelled it out. It requires a rerouting of the pipeline around those pristine areas that they care about and have been living in are re-occupied. And that would, I think, take a lot of the pressure off if that was done. I understand they proposed an alternate route and Coastal Gaslink refused it because of the cost.

MG: And they've said in the last couple of days that again, they're not looking at that alternative route.

RUSS DIABO: Well you know, that pipeline has been heavily subsidized by the government of BC and Canada in some ways and, you know, it would probably behove the governments of B.C. and Canada to look at perhaps stopping subsidize that action because look at the broader costs that are happening right now.

MG: Would it be, this doesn't seem to be and we're gonna be hearing from the minister responsible for Indigenous Affairs in just a moment, they're talking a lot about dialogue, the government is, but it doesn't seem as though there is any resolution in the immediate horizon. What would it take to end this? Do you have a sense as to how close we would be to end this if Coastal Gaslink says that it's not going to reroute the pipeline, the RCMP doesn't show any sign that it's going to move from the territory that it's on, so is this anywhere near resolving itself?

RUSS DIABO: Well all these support actions are triggered by that mass invasion of the RCMP onto the Wet'suwet'en territory and relocating them and their supporters. Many people saw the videos of that. That's what triggered the support actions across the country. And it was a Wet'suwet'en that put the call out for support to get the RCMP and Coastal Gaslink out of their territory. So all these support actions you see, that's the key issue. Unless that happens, I don't see well, from what I'm hearing in the Haudenosaunee side, they're saying until that happens, they're not moving. So that's the real immediate issue.

MG: There've been marches across the country in support of this and other blockades, other actions. There are also people who are growing frustrated saying that they're worried about the knock off effects of this. They're worried about goods and services moving around, about people being laid off. On that side of things, can you understand how people might be frustrated by what's happening and by the lack of a resolution here?

RUSS DIABO: Well, I do understand that, but on the other hand, like I said, the Trudeau government had four years to resolve this and he didn't deal with the land issues. And so I think this is really a lot on their lap. And if they were serious about settling this, the prime minister should have jetted himself out there as well as Premier Horgan to go and meet with them instead of sending, you know, ministers, which will have limited mandates like Minister Carolyn Bennett from the federal government and Minister Scott Fraser from the B.C. government. To me that's not taking it seriously and dealing where the heads of government should be there, meeting with the Wet'suwet'en nation, their hereditary chiefs to get this thing resolved quickly.

MG: What question would you ask Marc Miller? He's the Indigenous Affairs minister and he's next on the program.

RUSS DIABO: Well, I would say how come the Minister of Indigenous Services is dealing with this when it's really the responsibility of the Minister of Crown Indigenous Relations, Carolyn Bennett, or even more so Chrystia Freeland, because Prime Minister Trudeau put in her mandate letter that she's in charge of reconciliation too and an upcoming first ministers meeting, which is supposed to include indigenous issues.

MG: Do you think just finally, dialogue can resolve the situation?

RUSS DIABO: I think it's wise of the government to continue doing the dialogue instead of trying to use force, because if they try to use force, I think the situation is going to get worse and the costs will go up probably in terms of human costs and financial costs. So I think I agree and one thing I agree with the Trudeau government on, they're taking the right approach right now.

MG: Russ, it's good to talk to you about this. Thank you.

RUSS DIABO: Thank you very much.

MG: Russ Diabo is an Indigenous Policy Analyst and editor of the First Nations Strategic Bulletin. Marc Miller is Minister for Indigenous Services. He's on the line from Ottawa. Minister Miller, good morning to you.

MARC MILLER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Why isn't the prime minister in British Columbia meeting with hereditary chiefs?

MARC MILLER: Well, look Matt, these are discussions that are going on hour by hour. As many know, Mnister Bennett was there yesterday in discussions with her counterpart. We're all seized of this issue and ensuring that this, you know, what we see going across the country is result in a peaceful manner, but that requires dialogue, that requires an understanding of what the decision points are, and those are things that we are actively looking at.

MG: But you heard from Russ Diabo that the impression is that this isn't being taken perhaps as seriously as it could be, that if the prime minister or even the deputy prime minister, Chrystia Freeland, were there in those meetings, that that might elevate things. Can you understand why that impression might be made?

MARC MILLER: Well look, I think the impression that's been created over the last four years is the prime minister can sweep in and fix everything. This is a G7 government and ministers of the Crown are deployed, have that mandate. They have the confidence of the government and we're making modest progress. This situation did not, as Russ said, arise yesterday. There are a number of issues that are that are overlapping, as you mentioned Matt, but the crux of this is to ensure that we get in there, deploy the ministers that have that mandate and get to a set of issues where we can get things back to a situation where goods are flowing across the country. The situation of what's going on across countries is quite serious. There's about $120 million of goods that travels by rail. It doesn't mean that we're losing $120 million a day on this, but it does mean that those goods are not moving and there are shortages that are rising across the country and people at the rails are being laid off. So this is something that the government is intensely seized of .

MG: What progress has actually been made? You were at the railway blockade in Mohawk territory near Bellville, Ontario, on the weekend. What actually came out of that?

MARC MILLER: Well look, first, I had the opportunity to go in and meet a group of people that are feeling immensely under stress for the historical reasons that Russ raised earlier, but also for a set of reasons in support of Wet'suwet'en people in in B.C. and open up a dialogue and ensure that level heads are prevailing. These are people that are under stress, they've been there for, they were there when I got there for eight or nine days with police around them. So, you know, there is very little trust at the outset. And so what I did is I went in with my deputy minister and chief of staff and press attache, and we had an open conversation as to what the issues are. You know, what we need to do is, in essence, my mandate is to establish what the pathways are to de-escalation. And there's a lot of people that are frustrated out there and you start seeing a rising tide of vitriol and bigotry. We're a country of peace, order and good government. We often forget that first word and my effort was to go in there and have that open dialogue and see what those conditions are to de-escalation. And at the end of that long, long discussion, the pivot point in my mind is some movement in B.C. So accordingly I undertook to talk to the prime minister and cabinet and now we are taking steps to to move forward on that engagement in B.C.

MG: What does that mean, move forward on that engagement in B.C.? Because the understanding is that for the protesters, particularly in the Wet'suwet'en nation, they want the RCMP off their territory.

MARC MILLER: Yeah and so Matt, to that point, it's important for us to understand whether that's what people are saying because they see it on a banner or whether that's the leadership in question that is demanding that. And for me, that means a lot of things, but the foremost issue is to get people out there. That means discussion with Minister fraser in B.C. and let's take a step back, the B.C. government put a lot of work into this project and ended a long process of consultation along with Coastal Gaslink. And so we're at the situation today not because of lack of dialogue in B.C., but because there is not a community that is of one mind, nor should we necessarily expect that to be the case. But we're here today because there is a project that has not garnered unanimity on a land that is contested and we have to deal with the facts that are in front of us. We need open dialogue and get to the point with those hereditary leadership members that are against this and feel quite frankly disrespected.

MG: Just to be clear though, if this is about the RCMP, will you ask the RCMP to pull back?

MARC MILLER: There are a number of factors that we're looking at, Matt, and we need to figure out what that means, what those requests are and how we can get to a peaceful resolution to this situation without anyone getting hurt.

MG: If the government doesn't tell the RCMP what to do, what can you offer those who are protesting in British Columbia? If that's what they want initially? If that's the initial sticking point in any further progress of these negotiations?

MARC MILLER: Well again Matt, there's a lot of ifs in your question. I'm dealing in what do we do now? There's a number of elements that we can discuss with the hereditary leadership, but again, as a matter of confidence and trust, it isn't appropriate for us to discuss that in the public domain without having those discussions at the highest level, whether that be Minister Bennett or whoever that leadership selects in order to get to a conclusion that is peaceful. And let me be clear, I think everyone in this situation, despite frustration and despite opposing ideas, want a peaceful conclusion to this process.

MG: You heard Russ Diabo suggest that perhaps there's the opportunity for the federal government to look at some financial incentive for Coastal Gaslink to move that pipeline so that it doesn't go through Wet'suwet'en territory. Is that something your government would consider?

MARC MILLER: Well, there are a number of elements that were considered in hat particular route. As I look at some alternative routes that were considered a while back, there were other communities that perhaps weren't consulted. Obviously financial challenges. And so those were things that were considered and ultimately were not retained. But I think people throw around these alternative concepts quite loosely without looking back at the history of this, which was all in all a well-done process, but obviously it did not garner unanimity.

MG: As you mentioned, this is creating ripple effects right across the country and people are wondering how long this continue and what actually is going to happen in terms of the real effects that these blockades are having. The leader of the Conservative Party, Andrew Scheer, among others, have called on your government to direct the RCMP to remove the protesters, allow Coastal Gaslink to continue. There are concerns as well around the supply of materials that are being blocked by the blockade of the rail line. Have a listen to Greg MacCamus. He's the president of Superior Propane.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We're starting already to ration propane supply to customers and trying to prioritize customers that are in essential services, but we can only do that for so long. So I think if it's not resolved and moving again within the week, we'll get to a point where we're going to stop deliveries to non-critical customers probably mid-week, but we'll start to get to a point very quickly without rail back on line where we just, there just will not be enough product to keep customers' heating working.

MG: Minister Miller, how long can this go on?

MARC MILLER: Look, those shortages are top of mind for me. I know there's that rationing of propane that is very imminent. There is perhaps shortages of oxygen in hospitals. That transport by rail is crucial. But we can't get to the conclusion that everyone desires without going through these steps at the highest level of government to ensure there's a peaceful resolution. Look, let's look at the history and not repeat what's gone on in the past. Everyone has, everyone knows what happened during the Oka crisis. Everyone knows what happened during it, do we want to look at our children in the morning and say, did we do absolutely everything to ensure this was a peaceful resolution? And that is the result of this government is to ensure a resolution is both peaceful, but we don't achieve that conclusion without the engagement that we are presently undertaking hour by hour.

MG: Marc Miller, perhaps we'll chat again as this unfolds. Thank you.

MARC MILLER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Marc Miller is Canada's Indigenous Services minister.

Listeners share their stories about walking

Guests: Karin Marley

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VOICE: Walking, do it kind of slow pace, seeing the buildings, people watching, smell the air, feel like you know that you kind of moving slowly. It's kind of the most radical thing you can do today, I think. It just feels great, contradictory to what is expected by you, which is to speed up.

MG: That was Erling Kagge on the show yesterday. Joined me to talk about the power of walking. He would know all about that. He's an explorer, the first person in history to reach both the north and south poles and the summit of Mount Everest on foot. We asked at the end of that conversation for your stories about walking in this country and many of you wrote in with tales of your favourite walks and the role that walking plays in your lives. So many of you, in fact, that our senior producer, Karin Marley, is here to sift through the bulging current mailbag. Karen, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. Yeah, normally people write in about more controversial subjects.

MG: Indeed.

KARIN MARLEY: As you say, people had a lot to say about the small joys of putting one foot in front of the other. Marianne from the Northwest Territories wrote: I have been a walker since the 60s, probably learning to love it on my one and a half mile walk each way to our country school in northwestern Manitoba. Moving to the Northwest Territories in the 70s only increased my love of being outdoors. I continue to enjoy walking mostly in winter on snowshoes, as there are no limits to where one can walk and no distractions like bears or mosquitoes. She goes on to say, without walking, specifically outdoors, I would be a very sad person.

MG: Eric Anderson tweeted us about his daily walk with his dog, Fred. We have a 12 block route in our Saskatoon neighbourhood. It takes us through to parks by a Cree language school and the potential to see many a jack rabbit. We do this three times a day and we love it. You mentioned controversial subjects. Walking can perhaps generate a little bit of controversy. Not all of our walking email was positive. Andre Iffrig from Calgary is concerned with the number of young people on hikes who carry phones. Andre wrote: I backpack to get away from everything digital, to be present to my surroundings because it is therapeutic to ditch my cell phone, but a new generation, gosh, I sound old, apparently needs their phones with them even when they're out in the wilderness and surrounded by amazing landscapes. It means that they aren't experiencing the benefits of just being putting one foot in front of the other and paying attention to the environment.

KARIN MARLEY: Mostly, really though, it was a very positive batch of mail. Maybe some of the more positive mail that we've gotten over the years. Still, Louise Bassett Jones wrote from Eastern Ontario. I walk on my country road in Prince Edward County almost every day. I pass barns and fields and empty houses. At first I had the impression that there was nothing there. Very quickly, I learned that everything is there. Birds, grasses, deer, flowers, animal tracks of all sorts, wind, colour, heat, cold and an ever changing light. Also, many neighbours who have asked me in for tea. The houses are not all empty.

MG: Thank you, Karen.

KARIN MARLEY: Thank you, Matt.

MG: And thanks to everybody who wrote in with stories of walking. If you would like to comment on anything you hear on the program, get in touch. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or go to the website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click the Contact link. The CBC News is next. And then, a historic teachers strike is planned in Ontario this week with more than 2 million students expected to be out of class. We'll take a look at the long term consequences of this labour dispute, whether it's driving people into the private school system and if so, what that could mean for the public education system. My name's Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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Could increase in private school enrolment affect public school system?

Guests: Meredith Jones, Deani Van Pelt, Annie Kidder

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, one of Canada's largest religious charities confronts a crisis of faith. Hear from ex-employees who say that donations didn't go where they were supposed to. But first, the long term effects of strikes on public education.

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SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from classroom]

MG: You know that classrooms can be noisy places. This Friday in Ontario though, the schools will be pretty much silent. Forget the lesson plans, the group work, the bell to start the day. Instead, more than two million students will be out of class as Ontario's four largest teachers unions hold an historic one day strike. The dispute between the teachers unions and the province has been dragging on for months. And Fred Gore, who runs a couple of private schools in Kitchener-Waterloo, says he's been getting a lot more calls from parents.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We have registered about 20 new students since the Christmas break was over, and of that 20, 8 of them have just been in the last week and a half. All of the parents are calling and saying, we want out. Enough is enough. We need to make sure that our children are getting a consistent education every day.

MG: The students at Fred Gore's schools pay about $12,000 for tuition. One of the selling points, smaller class sizes, a maximum of 15 students. That has been one of the issues in the ongoing Ontario teachers strike. My next guest took her children out of the public system for private school. Meredith Jones joins me now from Ottawa. Meredith, good morning.

MEREDITH JONES: Good morning.

MG: Why did you pull your kids out of public school and put them into private school?

MEREDITH JONES: Well, for us, it was a really personal decision. Our little guy who was then in grade 1, just seemed to be falling further and further behind. He wasn't reading at all, wasn't writing and we could just see him becoming more and more frustrated and upset, quite frankly. And we knew there was something more happening with him. He's a really bright guy, really outgoing. He wasn't on either end of the extreme, either in academics or in behaviour. So he just seemed to be falling between the cracks and it wasn't for us an issue with the teachers. The teachers were amazing. We just saw that they had too many kids on their hands, too many different challenges, too many different abilities. And for us, we thought that our little guy just needed more attention.

MG: So this is about class sise in many ways.

MEREDITH JONES: Absolutely about class size. Secondary, we also were feeling like the resources available in the public school system just weren't meeting what we needed as a family. One perfect example of that really struck us was physical education. Our kids were getting two 30 minute stints in the gym and especially for active young kids, we just didn't think that was enough, nor is it what we wanted our kids to be living.

MG: What sort of difference did you notice once you moved into the private system?

MEREDITH JONES: Well, once we moved into the private system, they figured Cole out really quickly actually. It took about three or four weeks before the teacher called us and said, listen, Cole's afraid of reading. He has to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water every time it's reading time. And in our view, the teacher could figure that out because he only had nine other kids to watch and to observe and to work with. And so very quickly we figured call out. He's dyslexic, but he's gifted. So we've now got a system in place that is supporting him both in his giftedness, but also with his dyslexia. And it's made a massive difference.

MG: Do you think those differences would not have been possible in the public system?

MEREDITH JONES: You know, it's hard to say because we didn't see that all the way through. But if I had to project and what they've told us from going through the assessment process with Cole is, is kids with Cole's learning difference often make it a lot further down the road in the public system because they're so bright they can kind of trick the educators. And they don't garner the attention of falling very, very far behind, nor do they garner the attention of being really academically strong. And so they kind of coast along in the middle for a lot longer. So that was the feedback we got from the professionals that what they see from private and professional sorry, private and public is that it's just a quicker identification of these sorts of kids.

MG: Always awkward to talk to people about money, but I will ask. How much does it cost to send your kids to private school?

MEREDITH JONES: Right now, we're paying just over $20,000 for each child. We have two kids.

MG: That's a lot of money.

MEREDITH JONES: It is a lot of money.

MG: How do you, not everybody could afford that obviously. Most people probably couldn't afford that. How do you make that work?

MEREDITH JONES: Well, we moved from Toronto to Ottawa firstly. We thought that it was more manageable for us to do in Ottawa and it has been. But it's my husband's whole salary and we make choices. We don't drive super fancy cars, we don't go on very many vacations and we're just careful with our money, but it's something that we've made a conscious decision to allocate funds to.

MG: Do you worry, the choice is your choice and if it works out for you and your children, then that's to parents most important, but do you worry that if kids can afford to be put into private school, that that will erode the public system? That making that choice will actually destabilize the system that so many people feel is so important in our society?

MEREDITH JONES: You know and that's a good question. And I don't know the answer, but I do know that we still pay tax. So it's not that we're removing money from the public system. And, you know, perhaps as the class sizes potentially get smaller in public education then those kids will get the same education that the kids in private are getting. And that is just a more individualized hands on experience.

MG: Is there anything that would get you, your family back into the public system?

MEREDITH JONES: Absolutely. And we we'd love to be in the public system and we loved our school in Toronto and teachers. I think if the class sizes came down, certainly that would be a big positive for us and if the resources came up, meaning the sorts of reading support my son's getting, sort of computer voice to dictate type stuff and and the others, the the education, physical education, the art, the drama. If if that was increased, we'd be back in an instant.

MG: But in the meantime, this is money well-spent for you, the $20,000 per student, that per child that you spend. That's money well spent.

MEREDITH JONES: You know what, Matt, for our family it is. I appreciate we're privileged in that sense, but especially for Cole, we wouldn't put our money anywhere else for Cole.

MG: I appreciate you talking to us about this, Meredith. Thank you.

MEREDITH JONES: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Meredith Jones is a lawyer in Ottawa where her children now attend a private school. Meredith Jones isn't the only parent who has chosen private schools over public. Enrolment in private schools has been climbing slowly over the past decade across this country. Deani Van Pelt has done research with the Fraser Institute looking at private schools in Canada. She's taught in both private and public schools and is now a senior fellow at Cardus, which is a nonpartisan, faith-based think tank. Deani, good morning to you.

DEANI VAN PELT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of Meredith's decision to put her son in private school, particularly around the issue of class size?

DEANI VAN PELT: I think Meredith's story is similar to one that we've seen across Canada for the last 50 years. In 1960, two percent of parents chose independent schools for their children. And now we're up at around seven percent in Ontario. It's a story of slow, steady growth in the non-government schools sector. It's a similar story to what's happening across the world.

MG: And so in your research, I mean class size is one thing, what else did you find about why some parents, again, if they could afford it, would choose private or public?

DEANI VAN PELT: Sure. We did a study in early 2019 in British Columbia and in Ontario as to why parents are choosing independent schools and there were three top reasons that came out and they were similar in both of those provinces. First of all, parents are looking for a safe school. They're looking for a supportive and a motivating environment for their kids and they're looking for something that emphasizes the character development, the development of the whole child. And certainly that's what Meredith was speaking to as well, this kind of environment where her child is known, a child, an environment where she feels safe. And our research found that safety didn't just mean safety from the schoolyard bully. It actually meant a place where the parents and the child feel secure with the teachers, with the curriculum. And I think you really sense that in Meredith's story. There's a sense that her child is known and that the curriculum matches what her desires are in terms of arts and physical education, but also that her child can grow academically. So parents are really searching for that. The vast majority of parents who are choosing independent schools in our times went to public school themselves. In fact, 85 percent in British Columbia and 75 percent in Ontario. So this is a dramatic shift. It's not a story. There's some misconceptions about parents choosing independent schools because, oh, they're wealthy and there's some sort of elite and it's what we've always done in our family. Indeed, it's a different sort of story. Parents are looking beyond the government provided schooling for their kids.

MG: Well, if you can pay $20,000 per student, I mean, you do need to be wealthy, don't you?

DEANI VAN PELT: I think that's a really good question and we were interested in that question as well. What does it cost to send your child to an independent school?

MG: And this is where the diversity of options on the independent school landscape is really important for all of us to be aware of. About half of the independent schools are religiously defined. They're Christian or they're independent Catholic, they might be Islamic or Jewish schools or have some other sort of religious definition, obviously always focussed on academics. But the other half have some other kind of definition. And again, towards what Meredith was getting at, maybe a school that focuses a little more on special education or a school that focuses on arts or sports or STEM subjects, Waldorf, Montessori, those come to mind. And it turns out that the diversity of schools on the education at the independent education landscape charge a wide diversity of tuition. So the school that you and I are thinking about when we say the word private school with the $20,000 price tag, actually make up less than 5 percent of the independent schools in Ontario. The vast majority of schools charge between about $8000per student. And the parents that are choosing them are not necessarily parents of high means or extraordinary wealth. Certainly in Ontario, we found that they're twice as likely to be nurses or teachers than the regular population. So we're talking middle class, ordinary people willing to make enormous changes to their lives in order to be able to afford it.

MG: What sort of influence do the disruptions like the ones that we're seeing now in Ontario between teachers in the province and the ongoing labour dispute, what sort of influence does that have when it comes to private school enrolment?

DEANI VAN PELT: When we look at independent school enrolments over time and across the country, we do see a little bit of an uptick during times of labour strife. But the story is actually one of just a long term increasing interest in looking at the non-government school sector as a place to have one's children educated. And certainly when we look across the globe, it's not an anomaly. The vast majority of countries provide independent schooling for their students. The vast majority offers some funding towards it. Certainly in Canada, five of the six largest provinces.

MG: Well I wanted to ask you, why is that? I mean, why do 5 of 10 provinces provide some sort of funding for private schools, if they're private schools?

DEANI VAN PELT: Exactly. I think this kind of global awareness, certainly the awareness in the vast majority of provinces in Canada that public education isn't just made up of public schools. The education of the public can be provided in a variety of ways. And the independent schools sector provides some of the diversity, some of the innovation, some of the opportunity to parents who are looking for something different, whether it's religious or academic.

MG: Help me understand it because again, public education is is open to everybody. These are private schools that are by the very nature that whether it's $8000, a $20,000 or $30,000, cut out a portion of the population. So why are governments giving money to schools if they're considered to be private, if they're not open to everyone?

DEANI VAN PELT: Sure. In Ontario, the legislation calls these independently run schools private schools, but in the rest, almost every other province, they're called independent schools. It has more to do with the administration of the schools. They're administered independently. They're set up outside of the government system, but they're under government regulation and they do receive some government funding. And again, I think it gets to the point where excellent education can be delivered in a diversity of approaches, as again, we have many good examples across the country where government says, yeah those schools are outside of the government system, are providing education for our population, for the public, and they're going to get some funding.

MG: Just briefly, before I let you go, why personally to you, is the idea around school choice important?

DEANI VAN PELT: Parents know their children best. Parents desire the best for their children. And in Meredith's case, they're willing to dedicate a huge amount of their resources, whether it's time or finances, to the few years in which their children are being formed. To me, it's very important that parents are respected in their knowledge of the child and the opportunity that they have to have them educated in a way that best fits their own desires for their child academically or pedagogically.

MG: Deani, thank you.

DEANI VAN PELT: Thanks for having me.

MG: Deani Van Pelt is a senior fellow at the Cardus Institute. It's a nonpartisan, faith-based think tank, has also done research into private schools for the Fraser Institute. Annie Kidder has been listening. She is Executive Director of the research and advocacy group People for Education. Annie, good morning to you.

ANNIE KIDDER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let me start with your reaction to what you heard from Meredith Jones and Deani Van Pelt, just about the idea of choosing a school based on maybe class sise, but also on what the student might get out of it, that if the student perhaps has some difficulties, that they're going to be better served in a private system rather than a public system?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, it's really hard because I don't want to make anything I say sound like a judgment of any parent who makes any kind of choice for their child, because Deani's right. You know, parents, they totally care about their kids, they totally know their kids and they have a right to make those choices. I do want to say though, I have a kid like Cole, exactly the same sort of diagnosis if that's what it is and she's in grad school now. She's been graduated from university, from college and is now in grad school and has dyslexia. Had the same sort of and stayed in public school and actually, you know, and learned a lot, did get a lot of support. But it's definitely hard. If you feel as if your child is being failed somehow by the system, you're going to do anything to make sure your child gets that kind of support. So it's totally understandable at the same time. It's interesting what Meredith said because her whole thing was about the class size and the lack of resources. So really then, you know, I think we need to talk about why. You know why then in our public system, which as you said, is open to everybody is where the vast majority of kids in Canada go. And we are different from the rest of the world that way and should be quite proud.

MG: Is it really 92 percent of students in Canada go to public school?

ANNIE KIDDER: Yeah, it's actually Canada 93 percent and it's higher in Ontario. There's more enrolment in private schools in the provinces where they pay money or the government partly funds private schools, but compared to the rest of the world, Canada's, A, our schools do very well, but also we're doing very well in terms of that idea that we all go to public school pretty well. And it's part of when you think about Canada, which hopefully we do, it's part of what makes us Canadian.

MG: What do you mean? That idea of the equity?

ANNIE KIDDER: The equity, but also we all went to school together and so that there's a and there are definitely problems. Our schools need to evolve. I am not saying they're perfect, but we are lucky to be in a country where that's the common thing.

MG: Are you concerned about the increase in the number of kids who would enrol in private school?

ANNIE KIDDER: Yeah, but it is important to look at the numbers. The increase is so tiny. It went you know, I went and looked at StatsCan from 2014 to 2018, it went from 6.9 percent of kids to 7.4 percent of kids. So that is a tiny, tiny, tiny increase over time. It's not huge. Even in the provinces where they have had other kinds of disruptions, even there, there was no sort of huge exodus to private schools. I always think that we kind of hang that over our heads, that everybody will leave, but in fact, we've still not seen that to be true. There isn't evidence of that.

MG: People will know that on Friday of this week, two million plus students in Ontario will be out of the classroom. In B.C. in 2014, there was a teacher strike that lasted five weeks. So a bit of a different situation, but out of that came a big jump in enrolment in private schools, something like 6.75 percent. Could we see a similar move away from public schools in Ontario if the dispute continues in this province?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, I think, again, not to argue with your numbers, but when I went and looked at StatsCan, I couldn't find a big jump. There may have been a jump in the number of kids enrolled, but in terms of the proportion of kids in B.C., there was no sort of huge leap. I think that it is worrying because part of what happens in labour disruptions is, you know, the danger of people kind of losing confidence, you know. Are the grown in charge? Do they have it together? Are they figuring out these problems? And is this going to affect my child? Which obviously you worry about. I think that again then we have to look at, you know, what are these labour disputes about? Are there, you know, are the things that we need to make sure that we're looking at? Because right now, all across Canada, there are governments worrying about deficits, worrying about, you know, cutting funding.

MG: And education is often one of the largest outlays of government funding.

ANNIE KIDDER: Yup. We spend billions and billions of dollars on education in Canada. And so everywhere, Alberta right now they're looking at, Saskatchewan. So I think that part of what we have to sort of keep track of in these disruptions is, yes, there's a kind of bread and butter union part of it, but there's also class size in Ontario. Class size in British Columbia. That actually was the huge issue and class makeup in B.C. that what are the, what's the kind of, what's at the bottom of these disputes and how are we making sure as a country or as a province that we're telling our governments, you know what, we actually we understand this is really expensive, but we also know it's a great investment. We get the money back and it's where we should be spending money.

MG: What impact does it have if five Canadian provinces provide funding for private schools? Again, I was trying to wrap my head around that because to some people it's difficult to understand. It's not a private school, it's a private school and yet you're offering public funding to it.Wwhat impact does that have on the public system?

ANNIE KIDDER: It does have an impact, I think. And if you look at like Australia, where all across Australia, private schools are funded, it's caused a huge kind of aAnd the change has only happened, I think, in the last ten or fifteen years, a huge change in the system where suddenly you see and there's been lots of studies about this, real divides on socioeconomic lines. Chile's a place which had a very strong public education system. It's just done now. So only those who only, you know, people who can't afford it stay in public school. And once you do that to the school population, once you start dividing it along socioeconomic lines or along the lines of how educated the parents are or whether or not they can take their kids out then you actually, you have an impact on all the kids and an impact on how we're sort of educating our next generation.

MG: And yet, don't we already have that within the public school system in terms of a private stream that seems to exist, whether it is around the money that goes into fund raising that you've written about or whether it is other elements in terms of separate schools, individual schools, specialized schools. Is there not already a private stream within the public system?

ANNIE KIDDER: There is, there are kind of have not, have and have not schools all across Canada. We can see it in the amount that parents fundraise and, you know, in some provinces you can fundraise for like a new wing on the school. And so that's already a kind of a danger in our public system and something we have to really be careful of as we're looking at more and more sort of private money in public education or assuming kind of that parents will, need to augment the system.

MG: Because the system is stretched and as you mentioned governments are looking to try and cut defecits?

ANNIE KIDDER: And but then, you know, obviously the data show that they you know, where that fundraising has happened is way more likely to be in well-off schools with high average family income. So, yes, that divide gets created. So we have to watch it even in our public system, let alone funding private schools.

MG: What's at stake here, do you think if the public school system is eroded? If something that you say is integral to who we are as a nation and what binds us together, if that takes a big hit?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well and it binds us together and it's also all of our futures. So if we think about the future of Canada, the economy, you know, sort of economically and socially, we need to be you know, I never thought of myself as a person who would say, competing in the global marketplace, but we do need that. So we need to make sure that our school systems are keeping up and educating the next generations so that they can seed in this rapidly changing economy and dealing with all the kind of messy issues, you know, my generation has left for them. So we have to make sure. It makes a difference to our whole country. And I think that that's the other thing, that often this ends up being a kind of parent issue or teacher issue, but you know, we think the you know, the world is changing very fast, Canada needs to keep up and the biggest place where we can have an impact on that is in our schools. We have to work as far upstream as possible to make sure that Canada is part of that, you know, success story.

MG: But as you mentioned at the very beginning, parents will try and do the best for their students. And just briefly, do you worry that that might mean leaving the public system?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, I think what I worry about is you can never ask a parent to like sacrifice their kid because of their kind of political belief in something. So then it's the onus is on all of us to make sure the resources are there, the class sizes are right, the supports are there, kids get gym more than, you know, twice a week. And so we all have to do that. And that's what we pay taxes for, yeah.

MG: Annie, thank you.

ANNIE KIDDER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Annie Kidder, Executive Director of People for Education. We'd love to hear from you on this. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca, on the Twitter @TheCurrentCBC or cbc.ca/thecurrent. Coming up in about 90 seconds.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: People are being told we're going to take your money and use it one way. In reality, it was being used a different way.

MG: They collected donations in the name of their faith. Now, former employees of a religious charity say they have gone from devout to disillusioned. You'll hear their story coming up after the break. Stick around. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One.

Documentary: The Believers

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. One of this country's biggest religious charities is in the middle of a major controversy. Former staff and supporters of Gospel for Asia allege that money raised for the poor in India isn't going where it's supposed to. The CBC's Angela MacIvor has been investigating for more than a year. Here's her documentary, The Believers.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

ANGELA MACIVOR: Belief is a powerful thing. It can change the course of someone's life.

BRUCE MORRISON: Our hope is Jesus and we want to be responsible citizens.

ANGELA MACIVOR: This congregation at the Christian Fellowship Church in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, unites through song, prayer and the belief they must give to people in need, whether it's to a family down the street or a remote village in India.

BRUCE MORRISON: We're going to receive our morning offerings and Lord bless you as you give. Worship team, you can come back up.

ANGELA MACIVOR: For two decades, Pastor Bruce Morrison championed a charity called Gospel for Asia, also known as GFA.

BRUCE MORRISON: It was the work that they did in India, both in terms of sharing the gospel in that country and also in terms of the humanitarian aid that they provided, which was very impressive. The stories that were told and just the whole, the whole organization was extremely impressive, not just to me, but to my church. And we started supporting them.

KP YOHANNAN: Goats, sewing machines and all these wonderful items will make someone happy.

ANGELA MACIVOR: The founder and spiritual leader of that charity is a man named KP Yohannan.

KP YOHANNAN: Tens of thousands of families throughout Asia, people are poor and desperately needy, are able to find hope.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Pastor Bruce, as he's known to his congregation, began making regular contributions on behalf of the church. A big selling point was Gospel for Asia's claim that 100 percent of those donations helped the needy and go directly to the field.

BRUCE MORRISON: We started off by supporting them with $800 a month from our budget. So that's how committed we were.

ANGELA MACIVOR: 20 years and $150,000 later, Bruce got up in front of his congregation just like he always had, but this time with a very different message. The church would no longer be giving to Gospel for Asia. Bruce had serious questions about how their donations were being used.

BRUCE MORRISON: The mood in the room would be similar to me getting up in front of congregation and saying one of our cherished members had just died. That we just got news of a terrible car crash or a heart attack or something. Something that we thought was alive and active and doing good really had died.

ANGELA MACIVOR: That was almost five years ago.

BRUCE MORRISON: This is my office and this filing drawer here is all GFA.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce shows off the contents inside. It's crammed with colour coded file folders.

BRUCE MORRISON: These here are all binders or not really binders, presentations of reports that I've given to the Canada Revenue Agency, to the RCMP, to Industry Canada, and yeah they're just different files.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce began asking questions about gospel for Asia in 2015. It was his daughter, Sharlene Wallace, who first came to him with concerns. She had worked for GFA years earlier at the Canadian office in Stoney Creek, Ontario, and had spent time in Texas and India. Recently though, she'd been hearing from former colleagues, staffers who had quit the charity.

SHARLENE WALLACE: I had just heard about the, you know, the abusive harassment and workplace things that were happening to the staff and those reasons of why they were leaving. And so that's when I contacted my dad because I knew my home church here in New Glasgow were huge sponsors. And I was like, this has to stop. Like people, like I need to tell dad and he needs to know this because they need to make a decision whether or not they want to support an organization that's doing this to people.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce was bothered by what he was hearing and at his daughter's urging, contacted the former staff members. They called themselves the GFA Diaspora. A few were even Canadian. They shared stories of verbal abuse, women being scolded for not wearing headscarves and men disciplined for allowing it. So the pastor wrote to GFA, unwittingly embarking on what would become a five year investigation.

BRUCE MORRISON: So this letter is nine pages long.

ANGELA MACIVOR: At 73, his mind works like the catalogued boulders in front of him. He's meticulous and organized. Adjusting his glasses, he sits on his desk and flips to the end.

BRUCE MORRISON: My purpose in writing this letter is not to castigate or condemn. I do believe that intervention is needed to arrest and change detrimental practices. Nowhere is this more necessary than when it comes to taking responsibility for wrongs committed against members of the Diaspora.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Although he never received a response to that first letter, a subsequent letter to GFA leadership would elicit a reply. But rather than allaying the pastor's concerns, it only entrenched them. Cody Carnine runs a pecan tree farm about 14 miles from Gospel for Asia's head office in Texas. His family lives in what they call the shop. It's a converted shipping container with one bedroom that separate it from the kitchen by a single burgundy curtain. The children climb ladders to their beds in the rafters. Cody is a former senior leader at GFA. Around the time Bruce started having concerns, Cody was also hearing complaints from that group of former employees, the Diaspora.

CODY CARNINE: I read their stories and it's like man these are like a bunch of whiners. What's their problem? I don't see those things. It's not a, I just didn't see that it rose to the level that they seemed to think it did.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Cody was a dedicated staff member. In 2005, he gave up a real estate and construction business in Oregon and moved his wife and four children across the country to Texas to be at GFA's headquarters. He says he placed KP Yohannan on a pedestal next to God.

CODY CARNINE: Both my wife and I and our kids, I mean were really onboard and put in a lot of hours every week because it was a passion for us to be able to serve.

ANGELA MACIVOR: And what was the appeal about KP Yohannan specifically.

CODY CARNINE: For us, he was GFA. So when we talk about KP specifically. I mean, you know, and in his books and writings, of course he talks about living a simple life and freeing your life from distractions to be able to focus on what the ministry has, what's called the core values and so KP was our role model.

KP YOHANNAN: We blame the devil for all kinds of things. The devil is bad. Okay, I understand that. But the poor devil get blamed for everything under the sun.

ANGELA MACIVOR: KP Yohannan's profile rose in evangelical circles during the early 2000s. Supporters describe him as charismatic.

KP YOHANNAN: But I'm telling you something. Your enemy, my enemy, more than you realise, is not the devil, it is our own self-centredness.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Yohannan makes occasional visits to GFA's office in Stoney Creek, Ontario. Mostly, he splits his time between Kerala, India and Wills Point, Texas. One of Cody Carnine's duties at GFA was to lead vision tours, taking high profile donors to India to show them charity runs, schools, churches and so-called Jesus Wells. Proof their money was being well spent. But in the spring of 2015, Cody began having doubts of his own. He believed that KP Yohannan wasn't practicing what he preached. He says staff were berated for requesting bigger houses for their growing families. While he says Yohannan built the biggest home for himself.

CODY CARNINE: For me personally, it did come down to one night in our kitchen after Ingrid and all the kids were in bed and I just cried out to God. God, how do I answer this? How do I live in this situation? And that's when I knew. Well, I follow Jesus Christ. He's my lord. It's not KP. Slowly had my heart begin to shift where I was more sensitive to individuals and their needs and not just the advancement of the ministry, but more the people within the ministry. And I was in some cases guilty, for I had poorly treated some of these folks in my role in leadership.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Despite this, in the spring of 2015, Cody decided to lead one last trip to India. He says GFA leadership asked him to carry cash in his backpack and convince travelling donors to do the same.

CODY CARNINE: The people that went on the trip were given envelopes of, I believe, as $4500 cash to take over to India. So this is money from GFA that most of them took with them on the tour. And then after visiting different ministry sites, so near the end of the two week tour, then they gave that to the headquarters in Kerala. So that was brought together and then given over. And so I facilitated that as tour group leader and didn't at the time, didn't think much of it, like hey, this is just one way they can get money over to India.

ANGELA MACIVOR: It wasn't until a few weeks later when an American blogger exposed the actions as a potential crime that everything started to click.

CODY CARNINE: So it only took about three minutes on Google and I saw the federal statutes that have been violated and I personally was involved with that. And so I was like scared.

ANGELA MACIVOR: In total, he helped smuggle $45,000 in cash.

CODY CARNINE: I called an attorney to get a reference for a federal defence attorney to defend myself because I wanted to bring this to the authorities so they could see. I didn't trust at that time GFA to have my best interests in mind. So that's why I hired my own attorney to fix basically the situation I was in.

ANGELA MACIVOR: No charges were ever laid. But it spooked Cody enough that he resigned from Gospel for Asia. He says he has cooperated with authorities ever since. Earlier that same year, another former employee of GFA tipped Bruce to the idea that he might want to look into the finances of the charity, and he told the pastor where to look. The Indian government had specific requirements for all non-governmental agencies.

BRUCE MORRISON: They have to report all the money they receive from foreign sources in a year and I researched. I found out about that. I researched it and to my utter surprise, they weren't receiving any money from Canada. Well, they didn't report receiving any money from Canada, whereas in Canada between 2007 and 2014, they reported to the federal government, to the Canada Revenue Agency here that they had sent $93.8 million to India. And over there they reported receiving none of it. That's what got me going.

ANGELA MACIVOR: And then Bruce learned from reading those financial reports in India that Gospel for Asia had surpluses in the hundreds of millions. This floored him.

BRUCE MORRISON: And so somebody in Canada say, or some other country is saying being asked if you only could give us $30, we could help this child who doesn't have enough clothes or have enough food. $30 a month will make a life changing difference for him. And while they are appealing to donors, tugging on their heartstrings, they're amassing hundreds of millions of dollars in Indian bank accounts. And those funds collect massive amounts of interest and they have to report that to the Indian government. So it's easy to find the information.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce learned the charity had been audited by an organization called the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. The findings were never meant to be made public, but a leaked copy showed, among other things, that in 2014, the charity had close to $260 million in the bank and it reported that GFA had moved at least two $287,000 in undocumented cash to India.

BRUCE MORRISON: Through this, I became more aware of financial discrepancies. So what very much appeared to me to be fraud at this point, but I was still asking questions.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce wanted to find out if Gospel for Asia could offer an explanation. The pastor wrote to the charity's headquarters again, suggesting perhaps the Canada Revenue Agency could help get their affairs in order.

BRUCE MORRISON: I believe that full disclosure of GFA policies and practices should be made to the Canada Revenue Agency in order to ensure regulatory integrity. If nothing is amiss, it would be good for all concerned to know this. If things need to change, knowledge of undertakings that ensures that this will happen would also be beneficial. So I really didn't get a response to that.

ANGELA MACIVOR: At the end of 2015, Bruce wrote to the Canada Revenue Agency and he filed a complaint with the RCMP. If Gospel for Asia's responses didn't ease the pastors concerns, they certainly didn't satisfy those former employees, the GFA Diaspora. In February of 2016, they were part of a class action lawsuit filed against Gospel for Asia, alleging donations raised in America weren't going where they were supposed to in Asia.

MATTHEW DIXON: My name is Matthew Dixon.

JENNIFER DIXON: I'm Jennifer Dixon.

MATTHEW DIXON: It was an injustice. And I mean, it's one thing, if you have a secular organization that's doing that type of thing, that's bad enough. But you have an organization that's doing that in the name of God and using God and religion as kind of the impetus to push goodhearted people to sacrifice their money for a cause they believe in so strongly, that just is so wrong and needed to be stopped. And so that's why we felt we needed to go ahead and filed that lawsuit, because outside of that, it was not going to stop. Nothing was going to change.

ANGELA MACIVOR: As the original plaintiffs, Matthew and Jennifer Dixon, alleged that the goats, water buffaloes and bicycles people thought they were paying for, weren't always delivered. To both of them, it was clear what was going on.

MATTHEW DIXON: Essentially, that money was being raised fraudulently. It was people are being told we're going to take your money and use it one way. In reality, it was being used a different way.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Not only had the Dixson's moved to Texas to work for GFA, they personally gave $35,000 of their own money to the charity. Just like Cody, they believed they were sacrificing for the greater good. Jennifer says the tipping point came when they found out KP Yohannan run several businesses in India, which they had come to understand were funded in part by donations.

JENNIFER DIXON: We began to find out that there were a whole lot more for profit enterprises there than we ever knew about. We were finding out that there were schools that were for profit schools and the hospital.

BRUCE MORRISON: These, of course, do good things, but people pay tuition to get to them. They pay fees for the hospital. It's not really charitable based enterprises and people with means well put their children into private schools because they are of a higher quality. So they are also lucrative.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce also learned through the lawsuit that of $45 million which had gone into building Gospel for Asia's headquarters in Texas, nearly 20 million had been transferred from the charity's bank account in Hamilton, Ontario. Gospel for Asia confirms the money did come from Canadian donations, but says it was later paid back. Still, this has led Bruce to believe Gospel for Asia is committing fraud.

BRUCE MORRISON: They said that in the financial statements that were issued in the US, they said the money had come from an anonymous donor. And then we find out through court hearings in the United States that this money was Canadian money and donors here had no idea.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce and former staff take issue with the lack of transparency about how donations are being used. And though GFA has changed its promise to send 100 percent of donations into the field, critics allege the new figure of 85 percent is not being met either. They estimate it's more like 20 percent that ends up going where it's supposed to. The lawsuit settled last year for $37 million. GFA went into damage control immediately.

FRANCIS CHAN: KP, you've been through a tonne over these last few years. I didn't think we would ever.

ANGELA MACIVOR: The charity posted on YouTube, a video interview with KP Yohannan in conversation with one of Gospel for Asia's board members, Francis Chan.

FRANCIS CHAN: And so I appreciate you even opening up your tax returns, your personal income tax returns to me because I needed to see that. I need to see Danny's, you know your own son because, well, maybe he's not getting rich, but maybe his son is or it's just I needed to be sure.

ANGELA MACIVOR: The video shows the two men in a brightly lit room sitting opposite one another. KP Yohannan has curly white hair pulled back into a tiny ponytail, a full white beard and dark rimmed glasses.

KP YOHANNAN: Yeah. You know, I'm so confused why this was going on. To me, the biggest crisis was the accusation that money was missing and fraud and I was so in depression that I just lost all hope. So many people just disappeared. I don't know what happened, but we had a lot to learn through all this. And I think I realized without suffering, we cannot serve the Lord.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Over the past year, I made nine requests for an interview with Gospel for Asia's leader, but Yohannan has never been made available. The charity did, however, offer an interview with its spokesperson. Gospel for Asia's Texas headquarters is located just off a highway down a rural road in Wills Point. A metal fence lines the roughly 120 hectare property. At the main entrance there's a wrought iron gate. It's open when we arrive at security.

[Arrives at gate]

ANGELA MACIVOR: We're with CBC here to see Johnnie Moore.

[Opens gate]

ANGELA MACIVOR: Inside, there's an administration building, cafeteria and chapel. Staff call it the campus. GFA has flown its spokesperson, Johnnie Moore, from Washington, DC, just to meet us and give us a tour.

JOHNNIE MOORE: So this is the administrative headquarters for the organization.

ANGELA MACIVOR: It's a beautiful, sprawling building with cathedral ceilings, polished floors and new furniture. Johnnie Moore is here to emphasize one point. GFA did nothing wrong and the legal settlement proves that.

JOHNNIE MOORE: You know both parties agreed you know that the monies that were designated for the field ended up on the field. And you know, it's the position of GFA that the organization, not only never admitted guilt, not only were they not required to make an admission of guilt when they settled the lawsuit, but had the lawsuit actually continued in the court, they either would have won in the court or certainly won on the appeal. You know, that's their position. They settled the lawsuit mainly because of the duress, you know, on the leadership of the organization. They had never been in something like this before. It was three long years.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Johnnie Moore is a small man with a big smile. He's also a public relations powerhouse for Christian organizations across the U.S. It's a question around Canadian donations that I'm most interested in. So then can you explain to me how it's possible that in a period of eight years, between 2007 and 2014, GFA reported to the Canadian Revenue Agency that nearly $94 million left Canada, went to India during that period, but reported to the Indian government that zero dollars was received from Canada.

JOHNNIE MOORE: I contest that those statistics are factual. The organization has always contested, that that is a factual characterisation of that. And not to mention the organization doesn't exclusively operate in India. You know, they operate, their partner, that is, you know, they operate in 20 other countries around the world as well.

ANGELA MACIVOR: This is true. GFA has partners in various countries, but this doesn't answer my question. I go back to my query about why for an eight year period, the Indian government's own records show no money came from Canada. The financial documents reported to the indian government, are we not to look at those and and believe what we read on the paper that was filed by GFA?

JOHNNIE MOORE: I'm not saying you shouldn't look at those. I'm just saying people ought to have the humility to ask themselves a more important question is, which is what is it that I might not know about this? What is the information that I might not have or the information that might not be available in the public domain? And I think that there are vast gaps between the two pieces of information.

ANGELA MACIVOR: So what is the information. What can you tell us? What should we know?

JOHNNIE MOORE: Yeah, well, I think, you know, first of all, that that's a question principally for the Believers Eastern Church in India and, you know, around the world. But I think it's a question that needs to be asked of them.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Believers Eastern Churches, GFA's partner in India, it's also led by KP Yohannan and it runs many businesses, including private schools and a hospital. The concern is that people look at a very nice hospital with state of the art equipment, an engineering college, for profit schools, I mean, they see that that's where the money is going. So how do you explain to donors who thought they were donating to goats and wells and water buffaloes?

JOHNNIE MOORE: It was all happening. It was all happening. They were building hospitals. The hospital that you're referencing, I've been to it. I've walked around it. I've sat down with people who are being cared for in the hospital. I've sat with the director of the hospital. I've seen the gigantic statue of Jesus in the centre of the hospital. And by the way, that hospital is the only hospital of its kind within a very, very long distance. I mean people come from all over that part of India in order to get great, great health care for themselves. You know, not only that, by the way, you know, they're training doctors and nurses to serve other people all across the country. You know, this is an organization that has always talked about providing health care and educating people and so they're doing it. They're doing it. And while they're doing it, you know, they've also provided goats and wells and medicine and literacy training.

ANGELA MACIVOR: GFA confirms the hospital was partially funded with what it calls undesignated field funds, but says foreign money was not used for other projects, such as an engineering college and private schools. The charity also disputes that any of these entities are for profit. GFA says all revenue is used for charitable work exclusively. Back in Nova Scotia, the pastor, Bruce Morrison, continues to follow every development and Gospel for Asia's explanations do nothing to ease his concerns.

BRUCE MORRISON: Not disclosing that to donors was just unconscionable. It'd be like me as a minister asking for funds to support some family down the street where their house was burned and they just needed help and we took up an offering of $5000 and instead of me giving it to them, I put it in my bank account for some other day. I'm a clergyman, so I'm not supposed to get mad, but I'm upset, to say the least.

ANGELA MACIVOR: Bruce continues to send letters to the RCMP. The Mounties did investigate for about a year, but no charges were ever laid. And the pastor still sends information to the Canada Revenue Agency. He's hopeful they're listening, despite the fact he's never received a response. When we asked the CRA about Gospel for Asia, it said the charity is still registered in Canada. It wouldn't comment on whether there is or ever has been an investigation. The pastor admits he spends way too much time obsessing about Gospel for Asia. Bruce says it's a matter of guilt.

BRUCE MORRISON: I felt I had betrayed my church you know because I had a strong solicitor of support from the congregation. And then I suppose the greatest impact I've had, the greatest thing that's impacted me is the denial that comes from Gospel for Asia, that we've done nothing wrong when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

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MG: We've been listening to The Believers. It was produced by the CBC's Angela MacIvor in The Current's documentary editor Joan Webber. That is it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. The Magician Julie Eng will be talking about the forgotten women of her profession. Think about it. Think of magic and it's Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, Penn & Teller. You don't often hear about the women who have made illusion and sleight of hand what it is today. Well, you will, coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. In the meantime, I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Feb. 18, 2020 episode transcript

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