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The Current Transcript for December 14, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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[Laughter]

...feel good. My eyes just burning. Ain't nobody crying. My vote counts.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: She is a 33 year old African-American woman who cast a ballot for the very first time in Tuesday's Senate election in Alabama. And by doing that she joined one of the most powerful and most ignored groups in U.S. politics; black female voters. For decades they've been loyal Democrats voting in overwhelming percentages in presidential, congressional and gubernatorial races. But black voters played an instrumental role in the choice of Democrat Doug Jones over Republican Roy Moore this week. And Democratic operatives were effusive with gratitude. But black women say forget the gratitude. Start sharing the power. We're exploring that issue in just a moment. Also today another woman at the center of a political fight facing death threats, racist attacks, even offers of money to kill her.

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I'm looked after by many squads. Our home has different alarm systems. I don't really go anywhere anymore. We are to an extent almost prisoners in our own home because we feel unsafe to go out.

AMT: Gina Miller won a court case to force the British government to put its plans to implement Brexit to a parliamentary vote. She is a wealthy business owner working against social inequality and for government transparency and she will not back down. Meet her in an hour. And in half an hour. Ottawa organizes opportunities to fight obsolescence.

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Canadians don't understand why when they renew their passport they don't get the same quality of service that they get from Amazon. We cannot continue to be a blockbuster government serving a Netflix citizenry.

AMT: The CBC's Julie Ireton brings us the story of how the feds are seconding private sector tech leaders and creating start-ups inside the public service. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

'It's about saving themselves': Why black women got the vote out to defeat Roy Moore

Guests: Ricky L. Jones, Ashley Alese Edwards, Jasmine Phillips

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VOICE 1: Black women went to the polls to clean up y'alls BS yet again.

VOICE 2: Eff it We will do it. Sincerely black women.

VOICE 3: Seriously, thank you. Black women voters for saving this country once again. We don't deserve you.

VOICE 4: Today is a great day for many to realize that black women did the heavy lifting but there is going to come a day when they won't always be there to clean up the mess. This ain't the help.

VOICE 5: Thank you black voters for saving us from electing a sexual predator into office.

VOICE 6: Black women are not political mules to be used every time a mediocre white candidate needs to win. Turn over the money, resources and power, then we can talk.

[Music]

AMT: Thank you Black women. That was the message on Twitter after African-American women played a key role in the defeat of Roy Moore in Alabama on Tuesday. The Republican candidate for U.S. senator had been considered a shoe in until accusations of sexual misconduct with teenage girls surfaced. That made the race in the Republican red state too close to call. Now it is Alabama's black female voters, 98 percent of them who supported the Democrat Doug Jones who are being credited with the win. Black women have long been among the most reliable Democratic voters. But despite that many are pushing back now saying they don't want ‘thank you's. They want action and they are asking the Democratic Party what have you done for us lately? To find out more about how this all happened in Alabama. I'm joined by Jasmine Phillips, a marketing consultant. She lives in Birmingham Alabama. We reached her in Water Valley, Mississippi today. Hello.

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Hi how are you.

AMT: I'm well. What was your reaction when Doug Jones was declared the winner for the Democrats?

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Oh man. We were actually at the watch party, the election watch party and when they announced it it was like the hotel room just exploded. A lot of shock, a lot of tears, a lot of like 'oh my god we really like [unintelligible] this office. It's like a dream. Like literally this morning I think the high kind of worn off, and it happened on Tuesday. But we were all very thankful and excited and it was a very emotional moment for us for sure.

AMT: You volunteered with a youth driven Get-Out-The-Vote-campaign called Woke-vote. What's your involvement there? What is Woke-vote?

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Yes so Woke-vote was founded by DeJuana Thompson. She's been a political consultant for many years. She actually helps spearhead it as a grassroots organization when President Obama ran. And so she came to Birmingham really the state of Alabama and the focus of Woke-vote is to get young African-American voters registered. So the focus became where we will go on tour to different HBCs, Historically Black Colleges, to have Alabama and just get young people to register not necessarily telling them who to vote for but just motivating them to register to vote and then to actually commit to voting. And the numbers showed that that organization - Woke-vote - and the work that went into that definitely paid off. People listened. The young people especially young African-American people they felt motivated. They felt inspired. They knew what our ancestors went through to even get the right to vote. And I think that played a crucial part in this election.

AMT: And what does it say to you that black women had such an impact on this vote then?

JASMINE PHILLIPS: It means a lot. But also we've kind of been here you know this is nothing new. I think we're pretty much known to carry a lot of things on our backs and get stuff done. It's getting exhausting honestly because it's like 'okay we can sit here and be superwomen' but what do we get in return? You know what about these leadership positions? What about equal pay? What about his common decency when we are in board rooms or meeting rooms? So that's kind of how I feel about that right now.

AMT: And you're not alone. That's the message coming out of this song. That some that the loyalty of black voters and specifically women hasn't been rewarded.

JASMINE PHILLIPS: It hasn't it hasn't. And hopefully this election was a wakeup call. That's my prayer. That it was a wakeup call.

AMT: Black men also turned out in droves to help elect Doug Jones. What's the significance of that?

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Oh yes, oh yes, a lot of people are downplaying that. Yes Black women were amazing. But let's not forget our black men. Our black men whose society treats them like animals, most of the time, actually showed up to the polls. You have to think about Alabama as a state. You know a lot of young African-American men may not even be registered to vote because they may have a felony on their record. They may not have a voter ID because in the state of Alabama you have to have a valid photo ID to even vote on that day. So the odds were definitely stacked against black men. But they showed up and they voted and it showed. So I'm very very happy that our black men you know stood up and made it known like "hey we're here too". So yes.

AMT: What's the message Alabama is sending to Donald Trump?

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Uh. The message... The message. 'Watch out' I think that's the message. I think his presidency, his administration have gotten really comfortable with a lot of negativity. And they think it's just going to flop out. And you know get them for these next three years. But we're here to say "no, you can't act a certain way. You can't do things a certain way and be negative and racist and show your true colors towards us and not think we're not going to react. No that's not true. That's not what our ancestors did. And that's not what we're going to do, either.

AMT: You know there's a lot of talk about how the allegations of sexual misconduct played into this vote. But the other thing that Mr. Moore talked about a lot was the 10th amendment, how America hadn't been great since then, which would mean he was still talking about when slavery existed.

JASMINE PHILLIPS: When I heard that comment I got infuriated because he says that on a public platform. But the sad reality is that a lot of people still think like him. A lot of people still believe that we don't even deserve to be in some of these positions because of the color of our skin and that is heartbreaking. I would not want to like anybody who thinks in that type of time frame. Like that... That's ridiculous. And it takes as back by - it wasn't even 50 years ago - that the 16th Street Church in Birmingham, Alabama was bombed by white terrorists. So for Royal Moore sit there and say that comment is like 'wow you really don't care about it at all. Like not even a tiny percent of decency at all towards us'. So I was infuriated. But I used that anger, went to the polls. I volunteered. I motivated others to go to the polls. You know it paid off. It worked. It worked out in our favor.

AMT: Okay well Jasmine Phillips thanks for speaking with me today.

JASMINE PHILLIPS: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

AMT: Jasmine Phillips is a marketing consultant. We reached her in water Valley, Mississippi today. She lives in Birmingham, Alabama and she's a volunteer with Woke-vote. My next guest has been following online some of the reactions to the African-American vote in Alabama. Ashley Alese Edwards is a senior news and politics editor at Refinery29, an online women's magazine. She joins us from New York City. Hello.

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: Good morning and thank you for having me.

AMT: You heard some of the tweets at the beginning that we voiced thinking black women for helping to defeat Roy Moore. What were you thinking as you saw some of those tweets going viral?

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: Well I was covering the election for my job and when I was seeing those tweets I definitely felt happy that people were recognizing early on that it was black women who were out there and were defeating Roy Moore. But then I was getting a little bit annoyed because black women don't just need tweets and retweets and hash tag and thanks. We need to be put in leadership positions and as Jasmine has said, black women have been there. And in Alabama they didn't just wake up one day and decide to go vote. It was a concerted effort for months at a time for Doug Jones, getting out the vote, registering other people to vote, making sure people knew where their polling stations were. So thank you is not enough. Black women need resources. They need to be in leadership positions and I think the Democratic Party would be wise to look at what happened in Alabama and use that going forward in 2018.

AMT: And why did black women vote so overwhelmingly for Doug Jones? Was it solely a vote against?

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: I don't think it was just a vote against Roy Moore. These were extreme circumstances. Definitely Roy Moore had been credibly accused of child molestation by multiple women, sexual misconduct with teens. And he even before those allegations came out he was known to be islamophobic, homophobic. He's made disparaging comments about African-Americans. So he is a pretty divisive candidate. But beyond that black women have been voting for a Democrat since the 90s. It's a strong voting block and we have been the leaders for progressive change in America. So that's not surprising. Also Doug Jones has a pretty great civil rights record. He prosecuted the men who bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Alabama that killed four young girls. So he has a good reputation. I think Doug Jones was a good candidate but also Roy Moore was exceptionally bad for many people.

AMT: You know there is another tweet that I saw and it said 'This narrative about black voters saving Alabama would imply that the majority of white voters, the majority of people in the state wanted to be saved from Moore. They didn't. Black voters have protected themselves'.

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: Yes and I was just reading an article before I came on by Terrell J. Smiley that this is not black rimming like stepping up and saying 'hey we're going to save you guys from yourself'. Black women stand to lose the most sometimes under Republican policies. If the Congress gets the opportunity to fully repeal Obamacare, black women, black people and white people stand to lose under that. Employment discrimination all these things affect black women. So they needed to step up to defeat Roy Moore. It wasn't about saving other people from voting for a child molester, because as the exit polls show 63 percent of white women, it's not just men, women voted for someone who's been accused of child molestation. And that mirrors the general election. It was 53 percent of white women voted for Donald Trump and 90 - I believe 93-94 percent voted for Hillary Clinton. So this isn't a new phenomenon. And black women... It's not about anyone else at this point it's about saving themselves.

AMT: Yes black women make up 17 percent of the voters in Alabama and they voted 98 percent in favor of Jones, so overwhelmingly. What does Doug Jones have to do to show that he and the Democratic Party are listening to those voters who delivered?

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: I think the Democratic Party needs to not just think black women; it needs to look at what they did in Alabama. As Jasmine said she was organizing with get-out-the-vote-campaign. She was registering people to vote. And also Alabama put in place these voter ID laws and attempted- and I think they were successful in some cases closing DMVs in some black neighborhoods, majority black neighborhoods. So the Democratic Party needs to look at what black women did, enlist black women to lead these campaigns in these organizations and also ensure that voting rights, voting protections is a huge priority of their. Because as has been said a lot of black men especially had the odds stacked against them in Alabama and other states have similar laws but they still got out the vote. So that is something to look forward to in 2018.

AMT: And you are talking about all states not just the blue Democratic states but there are red Republican states, obviously.

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: Definitely the red states. I think before the allegations came out against Roy Moore, people kind of just wrote off this election as a shoe-in. He was a shoe-in who was definitely going to win. And I definitely think the allegations play a role in his demise. But I also think what happened shows that with organization on the ground these things can happen. It's not totally impossible to flip red states blue. But it takes listening to the people on the ground and listening to constituents and not just going by the status quo and just writing a race off in the beginning.

AMT: Okay well Ashley Alese Edwards thanks for your thoughts today.

ASHLEY ALESE EDWARDS: Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: That is Ashley Elise Edwards she's the senior news and politics editor at Refinery29, an online magazine for women. She joined us from New York City. Well despite their party loyalty our next guest says Democrats have historically ignored black voters. He doesn't see that changing unless black voters take action. Ricky L. Jones is a professor and chair of the Department of Pan African studies at the University of Louisville. And we have reached him in Louisville, Kentucky hello.

RICKY L. JONES: Good morning.

AMT: What have you been thinking as you've been listening to the last two guests?

RICKY L. JONES: Certainly there are some things I agree with but also I think the conversation is rather odd and interesting and a little bit invasive even on the national level. And I see a little bit of that reflected in our conversation this morning. I think some of the hope that's being put on the table is a little bit ill fated.

AMT: Why is that?

RICKY L. JONES: Because you know there is no reason there's a lot of talk about black women right now and certainly brought onto the table. The reality is that 11 percent of Alabama voters are black man and they went out as well. But people are not really asking the very hard and serious question of 'what is going on with white America?' Not just in Alabama but all over the country. You know so we look at this election 70 percent of white people voted for Roy Moore. Here's a man who is an unadulterated bigot, who is accused not just of sexual assault but also of paedophilia in a serious sense. By his own admission, he felt that it was okay to date underage girls as long as their parents gave consent. But still 70 percent of white voters went out and voted for Roy Moore, 72 percent of white men, 63 percent of white women, the Democrats [unintelligible] the Moore campaign anywhere from six to 10 to one and he still only lost about one and a half percent. And people also forget that this was a special election, but Jeff Sessions term which ends in 2020 and Doug Jones more than likely will not be elected for full term. So you know I don't see the future as rosy as some people do.

AMT: And so it is the Democratic Party pointing its attention wrong place?

RICKY L. JONES: The Democratic Party I think if you specifically talk about black voters, it has taken advantage of black voters since the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960. I don't know that it's going to change. When you talk about issues important to the black community: Poverty, under-education, disproportionate unemployment, income and wealth gaps, disproportionate incarceration, police brutality, even the killing of black children by agents of the state. The Democratic Party has been absolutely flaccid and they've been that way because they feel that black voters have nowhere else to go. And so I think we're going to see a time when you know the Get-Out-The-Vote efforts, it just will not hold forever. I think black people are growing increasingly tired of voting against certain candidates rather than for others. And so I think the Democratic Party is going to pay attention that out eventually.

AMT: And so what's the conversation that the Democratic Party should be having?

RICKY L. JONES: The conversation the Democratic Party should be having is putting truly progressive candidates on the table, and by progressive I'm not talking about the traditional political spectrum but I'm talking about people who are really speaking to decency, democracy in the most multiracial, multicultural America we've ever seen. The Democratic Party has to pay attention to those things. You have to pay attention to the schisms that are facing the country. They have to pay attention to the real issue that voter fraud isn't real but voter suppression is, with the illegal drawing of district lines, the voter ID laws. And they really need to pay attention to the issues that I spoke of that are specific to the African-American community, that I think systemically plague us. If they don't do that I think that black people are going increasingly not vote for the Republicans because that's not an option, but they're going to increasingly stay home and that will hurt the Democrats not Republicans.

AMT: Well yes. And so basically right now they sort of have been chasing the white middle class, right, especially with the vote against Trump.

RICKY L. JONES: Oh almost definitely. But you know you look at that to Anna Maria. I mean what's going on in white America. You know some months ago I had a conversation about the general election of 2016 and a white sister said to me "why did women abandon Hillary Clinton?" I'm like no that's a bad question. The real question is 'why do white women abandon Hillary Clinton?' Again over 90 percent of black women voted for Hillary Clinton over 50 percent of white women voted for Donald Trump. So it is a serious question. It is easy to scapegoat Trump. It's easy to scapegoat people like Roy Moore and they are what we think they are. But the reality in America is that largely white people have gone out and voted for these men. They put them in office so that that really begs the question of what is going on with a significant percentage of white Americans?

AMT: Well then how can the women who ours are powerful, the African-American women who are powerful in politics but not being ignored, How can they be part of something that will change that then?

RICKY L. JONES: I think we have to be very honest about what we're dealing with. I mean again black people only about 13 percent of the population of this country. So we certainly have to build coalitions. And I don't want people to misunderstand me. I'm not saying that all white people belong to the side of the house that will support a Roy Moore or Donald Trump but people really need to understand exactly what's going on. So not just these black women but black men, Hispanic brothers and sisters certainly white allies need to come together in a coalition to fight this majority often and keep them off their backs. But that's going to call for new and innovative strategies.

AMT: Ricky we have to leave it there but thank you for your thoughts today.

RICKY L. JONES: You're very welcome.

AMT: That's Ricky L. Jones professor and chair of the Department of Pan African studies at the University of Louisville. We reached him in Louisville, Kentucky. Let us know what you think of that conversation. You can tweet us @heCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. CBC News is next and then technology start-ups are lean, nimble, innovative operations, almost the opposite you might say of a lumbering federal government. But now Ottawa wants in with the Canadian digital service. We'll hear all about that in our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

AMT: [Music: Theme]

Government's new start-up aims to create better services for Canadians

Guest: Julie Ireton

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tramonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come:

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GINA MILLER: We are about to go through Brexit which is such a momentous decision. We need people to speak up and to talk about the scenarios and what will be good or bad and come to the best possible decision. But all those people are.

AMT: Gina Miller decided she would stand up and challenge the way Brexit was being implemented in Britain. She won a stunning victory at the country's Supreme Court, setting a new precedent about the primacy of Parliament and the people. But she's paid a steep price in terms of her own security and private life. She'll be my guest in half an hour. But first, Government 2.0.

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AMT: Calling all Canadian techies, your Country needs you. The government of Canada is on the lookout for a few good brains. Highly skilled I.T. workers are being recruited; people with skills and data analytics, software development design and product management. It is not a job for life. Consider it a tour of duty in the newly created Canadian digital service. It's a fledgling team still just getting set up. Think of it as a sort of a start-up without the foosball tables. The idea is that if tech companies around the world can invent ground-breaking programs, apps and services every day, then why can't the government? As part of our season long project adaptation, the CBC's Julie Ireton has been looking into this new digital service and talking to the tech brains who are going to work there. Julie joins me now. Hi.

JULIE IRETON: Hi Anna Maria. Can you smell the espresso, the cappuccino?

AMT: Well I can hear the machine. And really that's all I need for my imagination. I'm in.

JULIE IRETON: Welcome to this coffee bar. It's a popular place but it's not Starbucks. It's the office. It's actually Shopify. Have you heard of the company?

AMT: Well I have it's big it's a big Canadian tech firm.

JULIE IRETON: It is. In fact it's one of Canada's premier e-commerce software firms with headquarters in an Ottawa high rise. It was the hundreds of tech brains here who helped transform Shopify from a start-up into the publicly traded company it is today and it's currently valued in the multi billions of dollars.

AMT: Their stock is worth over 100 dollars a share. It's considered a real Canadian success story.

JULIE IRETON: It is and Jason White is one of the brains behind it. He toured me around the space at Shopify.

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JASON WHITE: They did an excellent job designing the the office here; lots of spaces for people to be extroverted people can be introverted some time to recharge by themselves. And of course the open concept work space that we're all use to, the hammocks to sit in and read and code.

JULIE IRETON: So Jason Wade is 39 years old. He wears glasses, has dark hair. He wears a hoodie and jeans which you know seems to be the uniform around here. He heads down the court hallway, espresso in hand, past the elegant private workrooms and towards.

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JASON WHITE: The yoga studio right over there actually in his hallway. Great place for people use it for yoga obviously. It is also uses a dance studio. The showers right behind you and foods is upstairs on 11. I spent some... when we were going public I spent some long hours here.

AMT: A dance studio and a yoga studio?

JULIE IRETON: Yep and fresh food, all available all the time. All part of the taxable benefits.

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JULIE IRETON: So what is it that you do?

JASON WHITE: I make sure, along with my teammates, that all the data keeps flowing, that of the ones and zeros out properly and they keep adding up reliably every day on time.

JULIE IRETON: So Jason is a data programmer and an engineer at Shopify for five years now. But Anna Maria in January Jason leaves all these perks behind. He's taking a sabbatical with the federal government at the Canadian digital service. And this is a brand new unit being set up to reinvent the way the feds build online services for its citizens. And just getting him there is actually considered a bit of a coup by the folks setting up the digital service, because his skills are highly sought after right now.

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JASON WHITE: Going from Shopify to the government is about as diametrically opposed as you can get. From a business that, for which process is a bad word, to government. It's entirely the opposite. So yes I am. I'm looking for a new challenge. And yes I absolutely feel like this is an opportunity for me to get back to the country.

JULIE IRETON: In fact Jason is looking at this opportunity like a tour of duty sort of like the Peace Corps.

AMT: Interesting that he feels it's part of being a good citizen. But Julie explain a bit more of what the Canadian digital service actually is.

JULIE IRETON: Sure. Well it was created by the federal government out of the spring budget. So CDS is only six months old. It's only got about 30 employees right now but they'd like to see that staff triple. There's a mix of digital developers, designers and some career bureaucrats. Its mandate is to help federal departments create better digital services for real people. You know just like almost every other aspect of life, Canadians now expect their government to be accessible online. But governments don't always do a good job with that. Which explains why they need these tech brains. CDSs is actually just down the street from Shopify. So Jason White won't have too far to go for this working sabbatical. And while the Canadian Digital Services is trying to be hip and cool with that startup feel it doesn't have any of those Shopify perks. I did get a little tour over at CDS too.

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JULIE IRETON: So maybe you could just tell me where we're heading.

JASON WHITE: Sure. So we're walking from our kind of collaboration workshop room down towards our two main rooms where we have the bulk of our team. And I'll give you an opportunity to meet.

JULIE IRETON: The Canadian digital service is inside this nondescript federal building and security is tight. A media relations officer actually followed me around. And right now the staff is stuffed into two small rooms sort of elbow to elbow.

AMT: No cappuccino machine, eh?

JULIE IRETON: No.

AMT: Who is your tour guide, Julie?

JULIE IRETON: That's Anatole Papadopoulos. He's been with the government for a while. He's the executive director of CDS and he's pretty proud of the fact that this digital service operates a bit differently than other government departments.

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ANATOLE PAPADOPOULOS: We are a very flat non-hierarchical organization. It's also about the kinds of methods we bring to our work. So we're working in an agile way. We work in really short chunks or sprints of work. We work in the open as well. So we are talking about our work constantly online, through social media, through blogs. We're sharing what's working well what's not working well and what we're learning. We have an open Wi-Fi network and might seem like a small detail but what it enables people to do is to access all of the web based tools that they're used to working with. If you're a data scientist you have your talk if you're used to it. And we don't normally offer in government.

AMT: Interesting language he uses. What does he mean by working in an agile way, working in small chunks? I need some translation.

JULIE IRETON: Yes. IT is this cross between bureaucracies and tech lingo here. Well, 'agile' he means working in short phases, being able to turn on a dime something the government is frankly really bad at usually. So they refer to it as sprints, quick turnarounds on projects. Basically they recognize the insanity of spending seven or eight years working on an I.T. project that is almost obsolete before it's even launched. So they have a list of departments that need some new online services or appss and now they need the talent to actually complete the tasks. Here's Anatole's elevator pitch to workers like Jason White.

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ANATOLE PAPADOPOULOS: Come and spend a year or two years working at the scale of government and helping veterans or helping newcomers to Canada or helping people with the kinds of services they interact with government every day. So we're looking for developers, service designers and user experience researchers, data scientists and engineers, product managers.

JULIE IRETON: And Anna Maria, those are real examples right now one of those teams, the little teams is working with Veterans Affairs Canada to develop an online app so veterans can figure out which benefits they're eligible for. There's another team helping digitize a process for scheduling citizenship ceremonies for immigrants.

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ANATOLE PAPADOPOULOS: This is mission driven work and we're not looking for people to sign up for life. We're looking for people to do a tour of duty.

AMT: So it seems to go against what we know the public service to be doesn't it?

JULIE IRETON: Right. Sometimes a job in the bureaucracy is referred to as the 'golden handcuffs' you know public servants build careers in government, positions that come with job security and a comfortable pension. Nothing wrong with these aspirations but they don't attract tech talent.

AMT: So they're looking to hire differently. But are these new employees going to be able to work differently?

JULIE IRETON: They tell me if they're going to make the changes that they want quickly they have to work differently. For instance CDS is using open source software and it's publishing its computer code for everyone to see and this is pretty common in the tech world now. But some government departments have been really reluctant to go in this direction. Yet, this is what the tech talent that they're trying to attract is used to. Here's Anatole Papadopoulos again, along with his colleague Pascale Elvas the director of CDS.

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PASCALE ELVAS: Using open source allowed us to tap into the expertise of the IT community around us. We are learning by doing. So, the ideas for us have practical experience on the ground and to test the flexibilities of the systems. So we published our website an open source and we openly blog about our work. So if you visit digital.canada.ca you'll see blogs, candid reflections upon our work. Part of what we're trying to do is demonstrate the art of the possible by actually doing it.

JULIE IRETON: You anticipate you're going to see pushback because you are doing things and purposely doing things differently here.

ANATOLE PAPADOPOULOS: We think we will. We've seen some already in early days and that's not surprising.

AMT: It sounds very transparent for the public service. Is it really?

JULIE IRETON: It is it's absolutely different, just being able to talk about what they're doing, what they're working on, the mistakes, the successes most bureaucrats do not have that liberty. Here they do and they're working against that internal culture.

AMT: Has this kind of government digital service been done anywhere else?

JULIE IRETON: Well actually we just have to look south of the border.

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BARACK OBAMA: Now the folks who were working in this digital service are having a great time. In part because they are harnessing incredible skill to a a purpose where they know that millions of people can be helped.

JULIE IRETON: Recognize this voice?

AMT: I do. That would be Barack Obama former U.S. president.

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BARACK OBAMA: And we've got some of the top talent from Google, from Facebook. These folks are coming in in some cases for six months, in some cases for two years. They are making an enormous difference and making sure that veterans are getting services on time.

JULIE IRETON: Sound familiar? So it's a not so shameless rip off but they say they're modelling CDS on something that works. And the Canadian digital service has consulted with those who set up the U.S. group. It's called 18F. I caught up with Chris Cairns when he recently visited Ottawa.

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Yep I'm a techie. I was one of the cofounders at 18F and co-built that to a 200 person digital center license within the U.S. federal government. Within the White House, there was a real sort of motivation to to change how governments delivering digital services and once these agencies begin to see that there is a better and more effective way of doing things I think everyone's in it for the right reasons. They are inherently motivated to deliver great public outcomes. And I think every techie in America, right, has its opportunity to come, like serve their country through great design and engineering. And I do think that - Yes I mean I do kind of see it as a great opportunity to serve in your own way.

AMT: So Julie what was the motivation to create the agency in the U.S. in the first place? What's driving all of this?

JULIE IRETON: Well in the U.S. It was healthcare.gov, otherwise known as Obamacare. Do you remember that?

AMT: Of course yes.

JULIE IRETON: So when that online program - to apply for the health care coverage went live - no one could sign on. And the technology had failed.

AMT: I remember that too. Yes.

JULIE IRETON: So that's when President Obama knocked on the door of Silicon Valley and gathered folks like Chris Cairns. Of course Canada has its own examples of tech failures. In fact the federal government is still in the midst of a giant I.T. disaster and it's called the Phoenix payroll system developed by IBM. And right now federal government employees aren't being paid properly. So Canadian digital service is not tasked with fixing Phoenix but I can tell you that it is the elephant in the room. It's on the minds of people like Shopify as Jason White as he heads over to help influence the early days of CDS.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON WHITE: I see issues like Phoenix where the traditional approach to developing software is kind of falling down and not working very well for the government and it doesn't matter that you fail. It matters how you fail. A failure of that scope, where obviously it's involving so many people and affecting people's lives is not okay and is something we should avoid. But you don't get there by trying to forbid failure. You have to be okay at failure and you have to be able to fail small enough that nobody notices. Permission to fail. Continuous testing all these kinds of newer approaches that I am looking forward to the chance of applying what I've learned in an area where those ideas are new.

AMT: Okay 'permission to fail' I can see how that's an approach in the private sector, in the tech world but inside government where taxpayers money is at stake, but would seem logical that failure is avoided. Is his kind of thinking going to be like oil and water when he gets into government?

JULIE IRETON: You would think so but the government and some people who are in top positions are now recognizing that failure can be key to success. I want to introduce you to Alex Benay. He's chief information officer for the Government of Canada. He's pushing for things to be done differently tot. Not just the Canadian digital service but across government. And it means wholesale cultural change.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX BENAY: I think it's safe to say that the way we've done things hasn't always worked in the past both long and short term. You order a shirt from Amazon, you know through your car basically now right> And we have to look at how we do service delivery in that context because as a citizen myself I'm expecting that. I think one of the reasons that we absolutely fundamentally needed a Canadian digital services, we've lost a little bit of connectivity with Canadians when we design a service. At the end of the day sometimes we forget that this is there's a Canadian, there's a person at the end of this.

AMT: Forgetting there's a real live person at the other end of the service. I think a lot of us have felt that way when we deal with certain government departments.

JULIE IRETON: Exactly and you know even the president of the Treasury Board Scott Brison recognizes this.

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SCOTT BRISON: Canadians don't understand why when they renew their passport they don't get the same quality of service that they get from Amazon when they buy something. And we cannot continue to be a blockbuster government serving a Netflix citizenry. We've got to up our game.

AMT: So Julie there's some pressure here on the Canadian digital service. The ministers clearly vested in it. How realistic is it that they can pull off everything that's expected of them?

AMT: Well certainly there's a long list of expectations here. You know we've got attracting the best and brightest from the private sector to help make CDS happen. Then quickly developing online services for Canadians that work. Add to that this shifting culture of I.T. development inside government. So these are no small tasks. That's why Amanda Clarke is keeping a close eye on CDS. She's a professor at University's School of Public Policy. She's already spent some time researching other digital services in Britain, New Zealand, the United States and she knows there will be some hurdles to jump at CDS. For instance it may not usher in that Cultural Revolution much beyond the little unit.

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AMANDA CLARKE: In other jurisdictions we have seen some tension between these digital services and other departments and in some senses can they gain digital service does operate by a different rule book. They've been given much more latitude to sort of talk publicly about their work. And so they have to bring to the job an appreciation for the challenges that those outside their hip little unit face on a daily basis.

AMT: Sounds as if thorough can be some resentment among different governing departments over these new kinds of workplaces.

JULIE IRETON: Oh, for sure and there are other obstacles Amanda Clarke says. Some of those government rules that exist that can stifle innovation actually can't be ignored. They exist for a reason to protect government and its citizens and they need to pay attention to security, privacy and protecting government information. And this is essentially the difference between a Shopify and the federal government.

SOUNDCLIP

There are a lot of rules in government right now that are just like it will take a lot of effort to undo. These are rules related to procurement. These are rules related to privacy, how we handle privacy legislation and also how we handle citizens data, even you know what information you can share with the public, how you have to present yourself, how you can discuss your work. These rules in some cases shouldn't be changed and so it's you know they have important roles to play.

JULIE IRETON: She notes that CDS is picking those small agile projects and these may be quick easy wins that will make this new team look good. And of course it doesn't have any control over these big I.T. projects coming out of departments like shared services, which is working on a controversial government email system or public services and procurement Canada, the birthplace of the Phoenix space system.

SOUNDCLIP

Maybe CDX will be able to affect the culture over time but at least in the short to medium term we still have a lot of I.T. decision makers in the government of Canada that follow the old model and that are really beholden to large scale contracts. And that's kind of where I'm not convinced yet that we're not going to see a Phoenix but it probably won't be CDS this fault is the thing.

AMT: So Julie would we ever see large scale projects like payroll operate in the kind of transparent environment CDS is pushing for?

JULIE IRETON: It's just too soon to say. Clarke says in Britain the digital service took on enormous I.T. responsibilities so that team's impact on digital transformation was much more pronounced. Now in Canada, even with the support of talk from the top there is caution. So it won't be a fast or easy cultural shift.

AMT: So will people like Jason White from Shopify be able to flourish in government?

JULIE IRETON: Well he's all set to begin over at CDS in January, just for three months but he is optimistic.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON WHITE: What I will be focusing on is helping them to build the team, to pick the projects and get them started and develop and building the right culture from a development perspective. The culture needs to be one where not afraid to try new ideas because of the potential ramifications of them. The government does not have the flexibility of a private sector company to have to splurge on cappuccino machines and that's okay. What really matters is how they treat the employees and that employees and the developers have the opportunities to develop and explore and create and have an impact.

JULIE IRETON: But you know I keep wondering if he'll find it stifling and stuffy and wrapped in red tape.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON WHITE: It isn't bureaucracy it is. It is government. It is famous for that. What I am really excited about at CDS is that there is a team of people and not just developers. The team of really excellent people who are experienced in government acting as a goaltender. We're trying to shield the developers from some of that are managed some of that for them. This is an opportunity for me to get back to the country.

JULIE IRETON: They will pay you though right?

JASON WHITE: They will pay me, yes.

JULIE IRETON: For probably not as much as you get paid here?

JASON WHITE: No comment.

[Laughter]

AMT: He still sounds optimistic. I hope he gets the latitude that he speaks so highly of.

JULIE IRETON: Yes and I hope he gets paid through the Phoenix pay system.

AMT: We're going to have to come back and talk about that whole story. Thank you Julie.

JULIE IRETON: You're welcome.

AMT: The CBC's Julie Ireton joined us from Ottawa.

[Music]

AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. How's this for a trip down memory lane. A classic Canadian heritage minute about the great Canadian hero: Winnie the Pooh.

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VOICE 1: So you will be fighting in France tomorrow.

VOICE 2: Uha.

VOICE 1: Well good luck Captain Coldwill. Well, you can be sure will take very good care of the bear. You are noting that it is the official mascot of the second Canadian infantry brigade.

VOICE 3: Yes, Sir.

VOICE 4: Salom Winnie. You be a good girl on [unntelligible.

VOICE 3: Why Winnie, Sir?

VOICE 4: From my hometown. Winnipeg.

VOICE 5: Oh Daddy. I just love Winnie. Couldn't we just take him home with us?

VOICE 1: Christopher Robin I tell you what I'll do. I'll write some stories about you and Mr. Shepherd here will draw some pictures.

VOICE 5: Oh Daddy! Let's call him Winnie the Pooh.

VOICE 1: Why Pooh, son?

VOICE 5: I don't know. Just Winnie the Pooh.

VOICE 1: [Laughs] And that's how a young Canadian soldiers' bear inspired four volumes of stories [unintelligible] and still sell millions of copies around the world.

AMT: Well next week you can hear the alternative facts on the history of Winnie from my interview with Luke Field and Alex Huntley of the satirical comedy show The Beaverton. But your hands on Winnie the Pooh's enlistment records. What did you learn about this great Canadian hero the bear that most Canadians didn't know?

SOUNDCLIP

LUKE FIELDS: I mean there's so much. I mean you know the fact that Winnie the Pooh's last name was the last thing was [unintelligible] was a revelation.

AMT: [Laughs]

LUKE FIELDS: ...to I think many of us.

AMT: Say that again the last name.

AMT: [Unintelligible]. That is Winnie the Pooh. It is Winnie the Pooh [unintelligible]. The-Pooh is a one word middle name.

LUKE FIELDS: And we discovered many other things including about his preferred... his rank. What was his rank, again? He was a sergeant I believe?

ALEX HUNTLEY: I believe so, yes.

LUKE FIELDS: Sergeant. And as well as that he signed - his signature was just a paw print. So that's an important development.

ALEX HUNTLEY: He also won a Military Cross and was wounded twice. He stormed a German machine gun pit and killed the crew with his bare hands.

LUKE FIELDS: Yes.

AMT: Winnie enlisted he was asked the little form he filled out was 'What is your trade in calling.

ALEX HUNTLEY: Being a bear.

AMT: Being a bear.

ALEX HUNTLEY: Very good at that but when he who served with the Fort Garry horse in Winnipeg and fought very bravely and I think we as Canadians should be very proud that a bear served for Canada.

AMT: Some alternative facts from Luke field and Alex Huntley of the Beaverton they will join me next week to talk about their new book Glorious and/or Free: The True History of Canada. Stay with us in our next half hour. Britain's decision to leave the EU in a hotly contested referendum has been very divisive and emotions there still run high. Gina Miller knows all about it. Her fight for transparency in the Brexit process has led to death threats against her. She is not backing down. She is my guest in about 90 seconds. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent on podcast and on your radio app.

AMT: [Music: Theme]

Meet Gina Miller, the woman who took Brexit to court

Guest: Gina Miller

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

GINA MILLER: Today eight of the 11 supreme judges upheld the judgement handed down by the High Court in a case that went to the very heart of our Constitution and how we are governed. No prime minister. No government can expect to be answerable or unchallenged. Parliament alone is sovereign. In Britain we are lucky, we are fortunate to have the ability to voice legitimate concerns and views as part of a shared society. I have therefore been solved by the levels of personal abuse that I have received from many quarters over the last seven months, for simply ringing and asking a legitimate question.

AMT: That's Gina Miller standing outside the British Supreme Court after her victory in a major Brexit case last January. She's a businesswoman and a transparency advocate and she had taken the government to court. She argued that Parliament needed to vote on the process of leaving the European Union and that the government could not trigger Brexit negotiations without the approval of MPs. The Supreme Court agreed with her. That made her unpopular with hard core Brexit supporters and her victory in court came at a personal cost. There were threats of having acid thrown in her face, calls for someone to run her down and racist remarks because she had been born in Guyana. Today, Brexit negotiations between the UK and the European Union are ongoing. But Prime Minister Theresa May was pulled into line by dissidents in her own party just yesterday when they sided with the opposition to bind parliament to a meaningful vote, when the terms under which Britain would leave the EU are finally decided giving political clout to what Gina Miller was fighting for in court. For her part Gina Miller is keeping up her fight for transparency from the government. She's a founding partner of as SCM direct wealth management. She's the founder of the True and Fair Foundation, a charity that encourages the wealthy to donate money to reduce social inequality and she joins us from London. Hello.

GINA MILLER: It's my pleasure to join you.

AMT: I want to ask you first there has been progress the Brexit negotiations, however have not been going smoothly, and even though Theresa May thought she'd secured an initial first step deal last week, we are seeing a rebellion in her own party with a debate in Parliament over the question of a meaningful vote by MPs about a final bill. What is a meaningful vote?

GINA MILLER: The meaningful vote to the Government have offered is for MPs to vote on the deal, whatever that is, or no deal. So this amendment is to say that it must be a full vote. So it's on all the options that's no deal, a deal or remaining. So all options on the table.

AMT: And it would be binding.

GINA MILLER: It would be binding.

AMT: I see on your Twitter feed you are supporting a #ladydatacampaign. What is that?

GINA MILLER: We know that a lot of the tax rules and policies in our country there's a lot of data on the impact on men but very little data on what tax and economic policies have on women. This is a plea saying that that data should be collected because we need to know the impact on households where there isn't a man as the head of the household.

AMT: So broadly what are your concerns about Brexit?

GINA MILLER: Throughout this process I still think we have a huge lack of transparency and honesty. And if you like reasonableness about Brexit and everything to do with Brexit. Instead we have extreme views that have been put out there. We have a media that is behaving in a way that I don't believe is responsible. And if there are any individuals who try to bring onto the table reasoned debate about the impact, about the hurdles, the legalities they are shot down as being traitors. So this is a very feeble environment unfortunately and we have a government who seem incapable of leading this process.

AMT: And it's really going to decide the future of Britain.

GINA MILLER: This is the biggest decision since the Last World War. The impact of this will be for generations. It will impact every part of our life, our economy, our security, our agriculture, our environmental policy. There is no area of British life that won't be touched by this decision and yet it's being made by people who - as we saw the other day you know we have politicians who are blatantly lying and yet there is no penalty that they're facing for doing so.

AMT: Well I want to go back. You had a heated debate about the court case to get a meaningful vote with former UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage on the BBC. Let's listen to part of that exchange.

SOUNDCLIP

NIGEL FARAGE: What part of the world 'leave' don't you understand?

GINA MILLER: This case. Have you read the case?

NIGEL FARAGE: Yes. And you're arguing that Parliament should have a say but do you want us ultimately like you said we're leaving the European Union. Do you want us to stay part of the single market?

GINA MILLER: That is not - I'm not a politician. I'm not the politician here. I'm the person who saw the elephant in the room which was there is no legal certainty. You should actually be my biggest fan because I've just created the legal certainty so that Theresa May can now rather than appealing go ahead have a debate and leave, not to interrupt her timetable. Actually there is a legal...

NIGEL FARAGE: What you've done is you've given, all those in Parliament who argue that the referendum does not mean we should leave the single market, you've given them the chance effectively to overturn the Prime Minister's wish to mandate her. And if that happens you will have stirred up I think the biggest political upset we've ever seen.

GINA MILLER: So should we sack all the MPs and they go home because what they have representative democracy at the moment which means that they have to go in there and debate.

AMT: Gina Miller This is all about the transparency that you're talking about the government taking responsibility. Elected representatives.

GINA MILLER: It is because if you have MPs putting themselves above the law then we have a real problem in our society. We have rules, laws, regulations, standards to be there to ensure that we have a fair society and if the very people who are supposed to be making and upholding those rules - politicians - are then sidestepping them then our entire society and infrastructure struggles.

AMT: Nigel Farage called you a member of the wealthy ruling elite unwilling to accept the will of the people. How do you respond?

GINA MILLER: I find it this social construct that anybody who speaks up or is successful is suddenly an elite and therefore doesn't deserve a voice. Surely in society the principles and values you want to push is if you are successful and make money through the honest sweat of your brow, and you are willing to use some of that money to pursue social justice and to call out the conflicts of interest. Surely that's not a problem but what's happening is that name calling is coming into the UK social agenda which means that those with a hidden agenda - and I think that Mr. Farage is somebody who does have a very extreme agenda - a name calling to try and dissipate any of the opposition that they might come across.

AMT: Spell it out for us. What do you think Nigel Farage wanted to do?

AMT: I think there is an element that's quite an extreme a far right Liberal agenda and underneath sort of through the back door of Brexit where they're hoping for us to leave EU so that they can have a low regulation environment, low tax, low regulation where basically they are the ones who benefit. I think we should be very concerned about that.

AMT: Are you opposed to Brexit?

GINA MILLER: I am a complete Democrat. I think that Brexit was voted upon not because the referendum actually is the MP who made it legally binding in parliament. So we have to pursue it but just because we had one vote on one day does not mean that the people of Britain cannot have the opportunity to vote again once they see all the facts and figures and what Brexit really means, because let us keep something very clear in mind that the referendum was a political miscalculation. Neither side - and I knew this for having been on the trail for a very long time - Neither the leavers or remain remainers thought that the exit vote would lead to us leaving the EU. So therefore they had no plan A, B or C.

AMT: Why do you feel you are the person to take on this case?

GINA MILLER: I took on the original case because I'm very steeped in the law. I've always had a great respect for the law. I've also been campaigning for social justice. And I could see that if we had set a precedent because we don't have a written constitution in the UK that any prime minister and executive could bypass parliament, we would be turning back our rule of law. My case is much more fundamental than Brexit. It was about upholding our Constitution and the way our Parliament operates because we were about to see a prime minister put herself above the law and somebody somewhere had to speak up and it fell to me. But I have to say I miscalculated in that I thought that I would stand up and many other people would join me. But because of the fact that we have fear in so many quarters, unfortunately people felt they couldn't stand up and support or stand alongside me.

AMT: I want to talk about that. You've been the subject of a torrent abuse for your activism. Rhodri fillips, the fourth via count St David's was sentenced to 12 weeks in jail for a Facebook post he wrote about you. We have voiced those comments that he had. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

5,000 pounds for the first person to accidentally run over this bloody troublesome first generation immigrant. This F***ing boat jumper comes to our country and believes she knows better than the people of our country what is best for us. If is what we should expect from immigrants, wend them back to the stinking jungles.

AMT: That came from a member of the British aristocracy?

GINA MILLER: It did. But it's from all walks of society. There seems to have been some latent emotions or beliefs in our society that were unleashed a Brexit actually the media were very responsible for this. They didn't report about my case. They reported that I was trying to stop Brexit. So having been tarred as this immigrant trying to stop Brexit, I became the personification of going against the will of the people and therefore the target for repeated abuse threats that I should be the next Jo Cox; threats against my family, my children. So every part of my life has changed as a result of that case.

AMT: Jo Cox of course was killed. She was the anti Brexit. She was shot by someone who was against what she believed.

GINA MILLER: I think Jo was a remarkable person. She believed in a very fair society. She believed in looking at the causes of Brexit and the people that were hurting and invisible and being ignored in our society. And I am of the same mindset that we need to look at the causes for all this hatred. But unfortunately when you speak up the voices who are looking to divide our society and to blame others for everything basically feel that they can threaten me, my family, do me harm because of the color of my skin, or because they think that I belong to a class that doesn't understand them.

AMT: How has your family reacted to this? How are you all dealing with these threats?

GINA MILLER: I have to say I'm a pretty tough person. I have just always been who I am but it's pretty tough for my children and my husband obviously wants to protect me but he can't. We have incredible support from our police service. I'm looked after by many squads. Our home has different alarm systems. I don't really go anywhere anymore. We are to an extent almost prisoners our own home because we feel unsafe to go out. But I want to fight for the country that I think we can become again because things are rupturing and I think from my voice on my platform that I can help to heal because I don't trust that the politicians are doing so.

AMT: How old are your children?

GINA MILLER: The little ones are 10 and 12 and I have a soon to be 30 year old daughter who has special needs. She's sort of her mental age is five or six. So in some ways it's a blessing that she doesn't really understand what's going on but the little ones you know they understand that our life has been curtailed and that I don't really go out with them very much anymore, because I don't want them to be present if anything should happen to me.

AMT: If anything should happen to you. That's some pretty ominous?

GINA MILLER: At this moment in time. It is the reality of the country I appear to live in but I will fight for it because I love my country and my children can't hide who they are. You know I say to them Èmummy's fighting because you can't hide the color of your skin. You could change your voice or go to a better school or dress differently but you can never hide who you are and why should you? And because of that they know why I'm doing what I do.

AMT: And you say there are a number of police details that are assigned to you.

GINA MILLER: They monitor my social media. They know everywhere I go I sort of report every time I'm leaving London or even if I'm going around London. They are very vigilant but they can't assign a detail as such because believe it or not I'm not deemed to be a public person. So therefore I cannot have that level of security from the police. I have to pay for that myself.

AMT: And do you?

GINA MILLER: Oh yes. I have a very good team and I don't feel that I can walk away from that, right now.

AMT: You say you're tough but that must be hard.

GINA MILLER: It's hard. Sometimes I feel very lonely. I think that makes me feel lonely is because I know there is support out there. But if somebody vocally supports me or on social media or writes an article then the abuses is directed to them. So I know that they are quietly supportive and that gives me solace but it still can feel quite lonely. But I have to sort of I do cry. You know I'll shed a tear, wipe my eyes stand back up at all and say "right. I know I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm fighting because I want to heal what's going on. And because of that I will carry on.

AMT: I want to talk a bit about how you got to this point. How did your childhood influence the activism you have today?

GINA MILLER: I'm often asked this question about is it nature or nurture. I think it's actually a bit of both because I've always been that little girl who just ask too many questions and why. But also because I grew up in a household where my father was attorney general very steeped in the law and told us, from a very young age, that we have a responsibility to use our voice, to use our actions, to put wrongs right and to be a part of this society. We can't complain about society unless we play our part in it. And my mother was also a very... She was the strict one. And her view is very much 'you have to stand up, if you don't stand up then you have no right to speak.

GINA MILLER: They sent you to the UK to go to school. Am I right?

GINA MILLER: Yes the irony of me coming to the UK is that my father was actually involved in setting up a political party to combat a dictator in our own country and the leader of that party was killed. We were then threatened. So the irony is we came to the UK for safety.

AMT: Wow and then another generation faces a different kind of a different a different kind of danger again. What did you think of Britain when you first arrived?

GINA MILLER: Like most people who come from a Commonwealth country, Britain is seen as being the Eldorado, as the place that everyone wanted to go to and we grew up with the Queen on her wall. It was somewhere I was so excited about coming to. It was a little grayer than I thought when I arrived. And people didn't seem to be as warm and as friendly as I thought they would be but I've always loved it. I've loved the multiculturalism and the what I thought was inclusiveness, the tolerance, the ability to learn, the fact that I could be anything I wanted to be, even as a woman of color. I could as long as I worked hard I thought I could succeed in whatever I wanted to do. So from all those positives I felt that I was in a great place.

AMT: You were not though an elite child there were times when you worked as a chambermaid to a foreign boarding school.

GINA MILLER: Yes. Because when my when we were sent over a couple of years after being sent to the UK our government imposed currency restrictions. So no currency foreign currency could be sent out. So here we were in the UK. My older brother and I without much money. My parents couldn't afford our fees for private school anymore for us to board. So they had enough to just buy a little flat which they did. So from the age of 14 and my brother was 16 we started working because we had to support ourselves and we just got on and did it. You know we were privileged we are so much more privileged and so many other millions of children around the world. We just got on with it.

AMT: And so you know in your work in wealth management you also have a charity that encourages the wealthy to donate money to reduce social inequality. Tell me where that came from?

GINA MILLER: I think it's the same principles that I've grown up with throughout my life that we have a responsibility. And I encourage people and say that "look whatever society affords you a success you have a duty to give back to that society" and one could argue across the western world a wealth Western cultures with the rise of populism. One reason could be that those in power base corporate academia or politically have not stood up and been responsible and giving back to their societies. And that's what I'm trying to encourage because I think we have to think differently about capitalism. I caught myself as a conscious capitalist. I think that we all have a responsibility to ensure that our society is a stable one.

AMT: And so in the context of the Brexit negotiations and the implications of Brexit what do you see in terms of social inequality? Where are the red flags for you?

GINA MILLER: Unfortunately I think that people have been over promised that by leaving the EU many things wrong in our society will be healed or will be mended, be it from housing to our NHS to job opportunities or schools. And that is not the case. The politicians are not addressing the underlying issues and they're not bringing in policy changes that will heal our community. So there is a problem that people who have been awoken, if you like, and activated into speaking out and voting Leave could be very disappointed because their hopes have been heightened. It's a very dangerous thing to over promise people because you then end up in a state where possibly you see civil unrest.

AMT: And how much support are you getting for those concerns?

GINA MILLER: We still live in unfortunately in a political environment where our politicians are not acting with integrity and honesty and are not putting our country before their party. The tribalism is too much and I fear that our system is broken and because of that I think it falls to individuals and civil actions to try and do what's best.

AMT: Are you saying that you think you can be more effective outside of government? Have you considered running for parliament?

GINA MILLER: I absolutely believe that I or anybody else can be more effective as an independent voice because the problem with our political system is that you get what's called whipped into voting along party lines rather than with your conscience. And that's a huge fault of our political system. So at this moment in time, until politicians can put country before party, I think as an independent voice I'm far more effective.

AMT: When we see what you're fighting for and when you see what you have gone through, I'm wondering how women who are coming up look to you? What do they need to learn from you or what are they learning from you? What are they telling you?

GINA MILLER: I think I'm probably inspiring more people than I thought I was because I'm simply myself. I mean I've been a campaigner for 10 years against the rip-offs in the city and the charity sector. I've always spoken up but whenever I think things are wrong but I think what they're finding is that you can do grace which is a lovely compliment to be told. I was just told that the other day this sort of 19 year old said to me she said "what we love about Eugenia is that you don't get cross. How do you do that?" I said "I do behind closed doors". But we have to be tolerant and you have to listen to other people before you respond because it has to be that we understand all sides of a problem. We have to understand people that disagree with us as well as those people who agree with us, or else will never effect change. And so I say to a lot of young women in particular be confident in your own voice but don't be shrill and try and build your own resilience because if you believe in why you are doing what you're doing and that you are a good person nobody else can really knock you down.

AMT: At the same time some people would argue that the idea of being shrill is just a knock on any woman who wants to speak up.

GINA MILLER: I think you can you can speak with confidence surely something that I think is attributed to women because we become emotional. We are very passionate beings and unfortunately our voice just naturally goes up. But I say breathe slow take a breath and then say what you want to say with confidence.

AMT: And don't pull punches.

[Laughter]

GINA MILLER: Don't ever pull punches.

AMT: Do you see a new generation, more politicized, more willing to be involved?

GINA MILLER: I think they have to be. And you could argue that an In Out referendum vote in 2016. They weren't active enough and weren't vocal enough. That's why in this last election that we had in June of this year I launched something called 'The Best for Britain' campaign and one of our goals was very much to get young people and women to involve themselves in politics and to vote. And we were hugely successful. I mean we doubled the number of women who voted in our election. And for young people there was a huge increase in numbers of young people who understood that - I mean our message was very simple that we wanted them to understand that politics is not something that happens somewhere else. Politics is something that affects every single part of your life and therefore you should be involved.

AMT: You know it's interesting to note too that you say you can be yourself because you've really been publicly dissected in the media. People have gone after your marriages, your wealth.

GINA MILLER: I mean they print stories and I read them sometimes not always. And I think "who is this person? I don't know that person." So, that's why you have to be very confident in who you are and your own story. I do say to them, which annoys them hugely, especially the right wing press. I say thank you so much for rumsucking every part of my life because now I know I have no skeletons in the closet. I can be even bolder.

AMT: Do you think that that makes people wary of speaking up or do you think that in a strange way it makes people realise it doesn't matter what they throw at you, you should speak up anyway?

GINA MILLER: I think people feel both and I'd say that you should be fearful and that's why I speak up, not because I'm fearless, because what results if you don't speak up. That's a question I ask of people. Just ask yourself what would result if you didn't speak up and if you are okay with the answer you tell yourself then stay quiet but if you're not then you should speak up.

AMT: Can I ask you, there are fascinating stories about your life; that you're the silhouette dancing at the beginning of a Bond film. You were the inspiration for the BBC series 25 years ago black eyes about a model facing institutionalized sexism. Is any of that true?

GINA MILLER: [Laughs] There are parts of it that might be true but could not comment on all of it but some of the stories are true, some are not. Look I've always been somebody who has embraced everything that's come my way and my attitude has been 'take your risk because there's only one life' but also I've always asked for things because there's a 50 50 percent chance you'll get a yes or no answer. So why not ask?

AMT: And you can't be stereotyped can you?

GINA MILLER: I refuse to be stereotyped. I am who I am and nothing will stop me being white to be.

AMT: How hopeful are you about the future of Britain?

GINA MILLER: I think we can rescue where we are because I think our society is rocking so violently at the moment. We have to understand these latent emotions and these latent negativities that we're there and try and put them back in the box because they've been unleashed. And I'm hopeful that people need to understand that and people will speak up and act. But I don't think we're there yet. I have to say my real assessment of where we are right now is that things may have to get a little worse before they get better.

AMT: Gina Miller thank you for sharing your ideas and your thoughts today.

GINA MILLER: You're welcome.

AMT: Gina Miller founding partner of SCM direct wealth management as well as the founder of the True and Fair Foundation, a charity that aims to reduce social inequality. She's in London England. Now a word from the team behind the show this week.

PACINTHE MATTAR: Hi. I'm Pacinthe Mattar one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Ines Colabrese, Donya Ziaee, Willow Smith, Samira Mohyeddin, Susana Ferreira, Julian Uzielli, Kristin Nelson, Karin Marley, and John Chipman. Thanks to our network producers: Anne Penman in Vancouver, Michael O'Halloran in Calgary, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg, Susan McKenzie in Montreal and Mary-Catherine McIntosh in Halifax.The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso Ruby Buiza is our interactive producer.Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Luke Williams. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our presentation producer is Lara O'Brien. And our documentary editor is Liz Hoath. Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

AMT: That's our program for today's day with radio 1 for Q. Bestselling British author Rachel Joyce joins Tom Power to talk about her latest novel The Music Shop. Remember you can take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app, you can browse through past episodes of our show start listening in just a few seconds. You can search for stories you missed or want to hear again, listen live to your local CBC station right from your smartphone or tablet, hear the day's top stories, even make your own playlist of your favorite stories to listen to later. All free from the App Store or Google Play. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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Dec. 14, 2017 episode transcript

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