CERB repayments

Guests: Roger Helfrick, Leila Sarangi, Fransesco Sorbara

CATHERINE CULLEN: Usually at this time, Canadians are mailing letters of good cheer and a new year, but some have been getting very different notices. Recently, some 440000 Canadians opened a jarring letter from the Canada Revenue Agency. It says they may not have been eligible for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit or CERB. That means those folks could be on the hook to repay thousands of dollars. Roger Helfrick is a musician in Edmonton. He received one of those letters from the Sciarra late last month. Good morning, Roger. Good morning. Tell me what your reaction was when you got this news from the CRA.

ROGER HELFRICK: It wasn't good.

CC: I bet.

ROGER HELFRICK: Well, it was just a complete shock because, you know, the pandemic was going on and everything was sort of being extended that way. Then all of a sudden, one morning there's an email saying, check your CRA account, because there's a letter there that is basically that you need to check in to do determine your eligibility for the CERB. I went, OK, that seems a bit odd. And then opened it up and read through it. And it was the first time I had ever seen any reference at all when dealing with self employment income that they mentioned the word net.

CC: OK, we're going to dig into that in a moment. But you see, people understand how much money are you facing the prospect of having to repay right now if you're determined not to be eligible?

ROGER HELFRICK: So 14,000 dollars.

CC: Wow. And help us understand why you felt that you you needed that money. Like take us back to the spring. What prompted you to apply for CERB?

ROGER HELFRICK: Well, so the reality because I'm a musician, I mean, I, I teach harp and sing and so concerts, weddings, etc. For the foreseeable future, when the lockdown was first initiated in March, there was no sense that I was going to be able to do any work. There was going to be no weddings of the concert series that I usually did in Vancouver that was going to be cancelled. I didn't know that necessarily in March, but definitely as the months went on, when this there's no way that any of these performances and gigs are going to come back. So, yes, I kept applying month after month until basically it was completed in September when they then switched over.

CC: So you make the criteria for applying for the CERP. You have to make more than 5000 dollars in 2019 or in a 12 month period. You make more money than that. But if I understand correctly, you write off a lot of that money, right? It pushes down your total income to very little. So I think one of the questions that some people have had as they've heard about people in your situation is if you weren't bringing in very much actual income at the end of the day, what made you feel that you ought to have this pandemic benefit?

ROGER HELFRICK: Well, the reality was the government basically was the one who had ostensibly sort of created this programme and they set that threshold at 5000 dollars. So, yes, I made more than 5000 dollars last year, but with net income, with basically writing off expenses. And some of those expenses, quite frankly, are like a capital cost allowance for instruments, you know, so I'm basically depreciating that over over many, many years. So it's not- I guess what I found always sort of a strange thing when I found out that they were talking about net. So someone who had their first job working retail or, you know, sort of like a minimum wage could have made 5000 dollars and been completely eligible for CERB. No one's asking that person why they felt they deserved it.

CC: This is about self employment.

ROGER HELFRICK: But yes, with expenses, just the way that self-employed business basically ends up working out, even if you're doing that.

CC: I wonder if you could clarify one thing for me, because the union that represents Canada Revenue Agency workers came out a couple of weeks ago and said, you know what, our agents actually didn't get the right information from CRA officials. There was three weeks there where we were we were giving out the wrong information to people in terms of how we were defining income. The CRA subsequently came out and said, you know what? There was a lack of clarity there. We may have, you know, some people may have mistakenly applied based on the information they got from us. But in your case, did you actually get the wrong information from anyone at the CRA, or did you just assume how that 5000 dollars was going to be determined?

ROGER HELFRICK: So it wasn't even an assumption. What we did is we went online specifically to the government, to the CRA website, where it asked, where you would apply for the CERB, and so that the questions were there. Did you have this? Did you have this? There was no- I mean, we applied the very first time when the programme was first set up. There was no sort of frequently asked questions page at that point. Basically, they they had the basic questions. Do you qualify this way? Do you qualify this way? The question was, basically, do you have an income of or I don't remember what the exact term was with a total income or income where they basically said of 5000 dollars, like, OK, so yes, I seem to qualify. So yes, I will apply.

CC: And now all of that has been thrown into question for you. And so I just wonder, we've only got a moment left, but just help us understand what what does it mean to you if you're going to have to pay back these thousands and thousands of dollars? How would you go about doing that?

Well, the only way we could possibly do it if we were to attempt to do it in a lump sum payment is to basically try and cash in our spouse or or permanent savings in that sort of way. And I think some of it is- I I'm just constantly trying to question why the government is so adamant on basically going after this very, very low threshold of income earners. I mean, this 440,000 it's 13 percent of the people who basically who are self-employed tax returns. That's a huge portion of self-employed earners. And because of this one small technicality that was clarified so late. Like we don't understand why they kept changing. They kept updating the programme, et cetera, and extending the programme. But they never, ever in all of those options- I mean, there were four government departments that were involved in this. No one thought they should make sure that they had clarified this for people.

CC: So, Roger, I'm going to jump in here. We are going to speak to a government representative and try to get some of those answers for you. I do wish you the best. I appreciate this is a very stressful situation. Thank you for taking the time to tell us about it today.

ROGER HELFRICK: Thank you very much for asking me to speak to you today.

CC: Have a good day, Roger. Roger Helfrick is a musician in Edmonton. Leila Sarangi is a national coordinator for Campaign 2000. That's a coalition of groups working to end child and family poverty in Canada. She's also part of a push for Serb amnesty for the poorest Canadians. Leila Sarangi. Can you tell me who do you think are the people who are going to struggle most to repay this CERB money?

LEILA SARANGI: Hi, Catherine. Yeah, thank you. The people who are going to struggle to repay CERB are the lowest income people, the most vulnerable, highly marginalised people in our community. As you know, before the pandemic, there were really high rates of poverty and these are concentrated in communities that were already marginalised. So, you know, First Nations communities in 1980. So the indigenous communities, immigrant racialized communities, these are the families, the workers who were concentrated in precarious low wage work, who have access to serve and are receiving these letters could hear the stress in your previous guest's voice. Like it's causing a lot of unnecessary stress for families. So people are going to have the hardest time repaying CERB.

CC: Some folks who are going to look at this and say, listen, the intention of this programme was that it be an income replacement. And if people didn't have this level of income in the first place. Well, that's not what this programme was supposed to do. How do you respond to that?

LEILA SARANGI: So this CERB was designed to help people stay safe at home. And that's kind of our new social contract, right? We have a pandemic. We don't want to put ourselves and others at risk. So we are all staying home, ordering in our groceries, stocking up, you know, figuring out ways to teach our kids and making sure we have the right equipment and access to broadband. All of this stuff cleaning, sanitising more, for people who are living on lower incomes like that stuff costs quite a lot and with community support that they would have relied on [unintelligible] respite centres, closed, things like that. These costs have grown. And so the CERB was spent, we're hearing from people, the CERB was spent on those things, the things that it was intended for. The question about, you know, it may be more than what people were making prior to the pandemic. I mean, campaign 2000 has been around for 30 years. We the movement was birthed from a government, a federal unanimous resolution that was passed in the House of Commons to end child poverty by the year 2000. They're 20 years past their mark. Poverty is a result of policy choices, not individual individual choices. It's policy choices that keep people in poverty. And so there is a question of what are adequate incomes. I think this has, you know, kind of shone a light on that need. And we have, the government has, a poverty reduction strategy and they talk about a rights based approach to ending poverty. We have one national adequate income to making sure people have adequate incomes. And so there is a real question of like what is that minimum floor.

CC: So I want actually to ask you about something the prime minister has been saying about this. He's repeatedly said during the pandemic that the government won't leave anyone behind. I want to play what he told the CBC's Rosemary Barton about possible CERB repayments.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: If that letter is causing you anxiety, don't worry about it.

ROSEMARY BARTON: So what should they do then?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: You don't have to repay that during Christmas. You don't have to think about January 1st as any deadline. And we're going to work over the coming weeks and months to make sure that there's a path forward that makes sense. But obviously, lots of people are in different situations. Some of them are extraordinarily vulnerable. Some of them made the mistake and would be able to pay back.

ROSEMARY BARTON: So they may not have to pay back?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Well, we're going to work with them.

CC: Leila, what do you understand the government's commitment to be at this point? I appreciate what what what you want to see, but what do you understand them to be saying at this moment?

LEILA SARANGI: Well, there's a major flaw in the way that the CERB was designed so that the positive things is that it rolled out really quickly. It was easy to access. It was low barrier. You didn't have to be eligible, previously eligible for another programme to be able to access that. You just had to go online or call in Syria and say, yes, I've lost income because of covid. And then two days later, the money was in the bank. And that was really, you know, that was great for the government to do. But the problem is, and you've mentioned this up at the top, as you know, the lowest income earners are ineligible, that if you didn't make 5000 dollars in the previous 12 months, if you made 4999 dollars, you're ineligible for the service. It's all or nothing.

CC: The prime minister hasn't made a commitment to those people. I wonder what you think the commitment is that he has made to people who are facing the prospect of repayment.

LEILA SARANGI: I mean, he hasn't. Yes, he's been a bit. He hasn't made the commitment we're asking for an amnesty, a full amnesty for anybody who's on low incomes to not repay. The prime minister, Minister Qualtrough has not made that commitment yet. OK, and so while these letters are telling people, you know, we need more information and they're suggesting that people can pay by December 31st, they're not mandating it. They have said that at some point they will be asking for people to repay money. And and that goes against, you know, all of the principles in their poverty reduction strategy and the things that they've committed to do to start to eliminate poverty in our communities.

CC: OK, we're going to leave it there because we have a government representative coming up next. And I want to put that very question to him. So thank you very much for your time this morning.

LEILA SARANGI: Thank you so much.

CC: Leila Sarangi, national coordinator with Campaign 2000. Well, I'm joined now by Francesco Sorbara. He is the MP for Avonwood Bridge and the parliamentary secretary to the minister of National Revenue. He's been listening to our conversation. Good morning, Mr. Sorbara.

FRANCESCO SORBARA: Good morning, Catherine. Can you start by telling me, is CERB forgiveness on the table for particularly for the people who have received these letters saying that they it's not clear whether or not they qualified in the first place?

FRANCESCO SORBARA: Thank you. Thank you for that question. First, I'd like to start I listened intently to the Rogers comments, Roger lives in Edmonton, and I just want to give him a quick a shout out and hello. And and just so you know, we're obviously listening to his case and the cases of other Canadians that find themselves having received the letter from the government. So, you know, we definitely empathise and we definitely understand their situation and wants more than amnesty.

CC: He wants a policy change. He wants to be able to keep the money. So are you going to let him do it? Him and others like him.

FRANCESCO SORBARA: What we what we stated to date and what we've announced to date is obviously, if you know, individuals who had applied for the CERB, if they were not eligible for it, there's obviously going to be zero penalties and zero interest. And as the prime minister had indicated in his discussions with Rosemary that, you know, we'll be looking at a case by case, this and that. You know, we expect to be, you know, case by case basis and we expect to be in a position to provide more information to these individuals in the coming weeks.

CC: So I interviewed Minister Qualtroough the day before Rosemary interviewed the prime minister and she said to me, listen, forgiveness like it's just not something we're looking at right now. The next day, the prime minister really leaves the door open. I think it was very unclear, frankly, in that interview with Rosemary, she asked him repeatedly, is forgiveness on the table? He certainly didn't close the door to it. So I'd like to know, as the parliamentary secretary to the minister of national revenue, it's almost half a million Canadians who are affected by this. Is there the prospect they won't have to pay that money back? Is your understanding that that's on the table right now?

FRANCESCO SORBARA: My understanding a of today is that obviously reiterating what the prime minister has indicated, that we will work with Canadians on obviously on a case by case basis, which we are doing, and that we expect to be in a position to provide more details in the coming weeks. That's the information that I can provide to your listeners and to yourself. At the same time, obviously, if someone isn't, as I'd like to reiterate, is that if someone was not eligible for the CERB that, you know, currently there is a zero penalty, zero zero interest on that situation.

CC: What has changed since Rosemary spoke with the prime minister is that the CRA has come out and acknowledged that people weren't getting clear information. In fact, according to the CRA union, they were getting the wrong information for about three weeks at the beginning of the pandemic. The CRA explicitly says, I'm going to quote them here. We regret that this lack of consistent clarity led some self-employed individuals to mistakenly apply to the CERB despite being ineligible if the government made a mistake. Why do individual Canadians have to pay for that?

FRANCESCO SORBARA: Well, a couple of things on that. First one, when the programme was designed, you know, eventually the programme assisted over, what, almost nine million Canadians, the most extraordinary time in world history from what I told people. And we wanted to make sure Canadians had money to pay for rent and people food. And, you know, I always say the story in my writing of an individual who worked at a restaurant, two sons, she lost her job and that was her full income that she lost. She was able to quickly transition onto the CERB and was able to you know, we were effectively able to assist her and continue to to assist this individual as the economy recovers and opens up. So for, in my view, this these individuals, the nine million Koreans that receive the CERB in the system, you know, in putting together this programme in a very quick pace.

CC: Mr. Sobara, I don't hear anyone quibbling with the the nature of the programme itself. What I am asking you is there is now information that people were misinformed by the CRA. Do you believe that they should have to pay for it if they got the wrong information from the government? Do you perhaps even owe them an apology?

FRANCESCO SORBARA: Well, obviously there's if there was any sort of information that wasn't clarified properly, obviously we always want to look at that and, you know, and ensure that Canadians are receiving it.

CC: It doesn't seem to be an 'if' though, sir.

FRANCESCO SORBARA: No, I think it's definitely regretful that if there was information that was provided to Canadians that was not as clear as it should have been. The rules on self-employed income, Catherine, have actually from the series aside on the government side, they've always been very clear on self-employed and income. It is it has always been a net pre-tax income.

CC: And yet it appears they were giving out the wrong information at the first three weeks of the pandemic. So it's not that clear some folks.

FRANCESCO SORBARA: Any any information that was mistakenly provided, obviously very regretful on that aspect. I will see the question and answer page that was provided to applicants to the CERB was obviously evolving the information was there at a certain time frame. But for folks to ead to look at. I know I had it in my back my back pocket, I would say, for the entire time. And and it was really understood. And I think one of the aspects of the programme was, which was very flexible semi-finished, was that when people determined their net income or their net pre-tax income--.

CC: It was we're going to have to leave it there. I apologise for cutting you off Mr. Sobara, but we're we're we're running up against the clock here. So I thank you for your time today. That is Francesco Sorbara, parliamentary secretary to the minister of National Revenue. I am Catherine Cullen. And you are listening to The Current.

First Nations outreach in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside

Guests: Wawmeesh Hamilton

CC: Hello, I'm Catherine Cullen and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Still to come, one student's choice to live this year - you know, the year we all went virtual - without internet. But first, a powerful journey in Vancouver's downtown east side.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES: You know, this is actually one of the alleys I used to hang out in.

PRODUCER: James is a complicated man.

I'm James Harry from Haisla Nation.

PRODUCER: He's a Haisla First Nation and Kitimat married with children. He was a former addict.

JAMES: I was crack cocaine, alcohol.

PRODUCER: I'm walking the streets in New Orleans with the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver with James.

JAMES: So we're going to walk down here. We'll get into the alley behind the west. And that's probably the busiest alley down here.

PRODUCER: So could you tell me about what your life was like when you were addicted and living on the Downtown Eastside?

JAMES: One word, and that's Hell. I didn't know at the time. But it's was living around the lower risk places in North America.

[Sound: Sirens].

JAMES: In the winter time. It was nothing but rain, was just trying to stay warm and trying to keep dry. Was there is a dumpster, or doorway or just the [unintelligible]. Fighting for a spot in those doorways. This is the busiest alley, and you got to bare there. The alleys are another world. There were dark, dank, Dickinsonian World. Summertime, and it was people outside there drinking all day and somewhere to relieve themselves. And this is where they come. The horrific smell of urine and the faeces and just combined with the heat.

PRODUCER: He still goes down to the Downtown Eastside every day. Only now he's looking for his own First Nations' people who are struggling with addiction themselves. James is just over 50 years old. He's got what I call a one of the guys look. He's slender but sturdy built, and that counts from years of playing basketball and soccer. Salt and pepper hair, more salt and pepper. He's got deep set eyes. He's been six years, I believe now, drug and alcohol free. During the height of his addiction. James once again be the foray into the Downtown Eastside into a particular alley that he frequented.

JAMES: When I knew I was going to use and I was en-route to pick up her alcohol or drugs, I always had that guilty feeling back my head.

PRODUCER: He was there for I think he said three to five days drugging, just drugging.

JAMES: I remember this one, this one moment. Going home, try to sneak in and open the door. And my kids popped up and see how happy they were. That we're okay and that we're alive and how quickly those, those eyes went to hurt eyes.

PRODUCER: And that for the first time pierced him.

JAMES: I vowed never to, in my power deaths to bring on those hurt eyes anymore.

PRODUCER: And that was the thing that propelled him to seek help for his addiction and get it and become a drug and alcohol free guy.

JAMES: My very first month into recovery an older told me, said creator has kept you here for a reason. You got to find out what their reason is.

PRODUCER: He'd still go down to the Downtown Eastside to congregate with his Haisla people.

JAMES: I come down here and I'd just grab a bite, treat for a coffees and pass along and talk.

PRODUCER: And one day he happened upon a young fellow.

JAMES: My cousin's son.

PRODUCER: From Haisla, who was deep into addiction.

JAMES: I know he's struggling down there and they were worried about him. So I...

PRODUCER: Connected with him. He just made a human Haisla First Nations bro connection.

JAMES: He called and let him know that we found him and he's okay and continued to connect with them and stay in touch with them.

PRODUCER: And in time, he encouraged the young man to get treatment. And I think the young guy said to him, just take me home.

JAMES: I said. Let's get you home.

PRODUCER: And James drove him to his little single room occupancy unit, which is like a bug drug infested little eight and a half by eleven hotel room somewhere in the dark, dark Downtown Eastside. And the guy got his little bag of things. Got into James Car. And James drove him 18 hours home.

JAMES: I got him out of the city.

PRODUCER: To Kitimat to the Haisla First Nation, and the guy got into the [unintelligible] center, the healing center that they have there and kicked his addiction. He still lives there today. The young man's father, James cousin, was on the Kitimat First Nations Council. And he saw not only this connection James had with his son, but the living, breathing proof that whatever James had done with him worked. And if it could work with him, could it work with others. Two or three months later the Kitimat First Nation went to James with a proposal. And that proposal was to be an outreach worker to find their members struggling with addiction on the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver. Make a connection. Encourage them to get off the street and to get treatment. And James said yes.

JAMES: When I was first told about the position and exactly why the Created got me here.

PRODUCER: That's why on any given day you can find James walking the streets in the alleys of the Downtown Eastside.

JAMES: I make my way down to the war zone and say a little prayer in my car and ask the Creator to keep me safe. As the ancestors to be behind me.

PRODUCER: You don't notice him. That's one of the first things you notice. Very unobtrusive, not aggressive , very monastically. Like he's comfy, but he's always his eyes are always darting back and forth.

JAMES: Look, both ways here, just looking.

PRODUCER: Watching.

JAMES: In the doorways, looking for people, looking for any, maybe, in neighboring communities. We have a couple of members that hang out here and I walk through here. I'll just stay like let them know I'm here and let them know that support is always there.

PRODUCER: When he'll walk in, you see someone who knows. He just makes a connection.

JAMES: Enjoying the weather?

VOICE: Yes. Nice today.

PRODUCER: Hi, how are you? How's things? Where are you at in life? And I notice James shake hands and I noticed James hugged him too. And that's how it was all the time that we walked down. I noticed when James sees other Haisla people, he always greets them in the same way. He says yaw'c.

JAMES: Yaw'c.

VOICE: Yaw'c. Having an elder back home it's yaw'c.

PRODUCER: And people will see that back and that's how is the people's greeting to one another. So they, they know. They never forgot something still, it's a little connection but it's a connection nonetheless.

JAMES: Just passing out the coffees and saying hi to somebody struggling down there, are a lot feels alone down there. Just means the world to him.

PRODUCER: How do you find that her Haisla people?

JAMES: How do I find them?

PRODUCER: Yes.

JAMES: By word of mouth or just down my daily rounds. And sometimes by fluke, I'll be walking down the alley and I just say hi to somebody and before you know it I find out that they're Haislan.

PRODUCER: When he makes a connection with a Haisla person struggling with addiction, his first words to them. Every single one of them, he says:

JAMES: And I'm James Harry. I'm here on behalf of Haisla Nation. And I want you to know that you are not alone.

PRODUCER: And that pierces people almost all the time. Almost all the time. Some people reject him or her.

JAMES: Rejection hurts.

PRODUCER: We ran into a guy that was struggling with addiction already. And you could see that he was tweaking. It's a drug used term. He was under the extreme influence of a drug.

JAMES: I just know it because I was there at one time myself. You know, maybe it'll just take some time.

PRODUCER: Two minutes later, when we walked down the same alley, another guy approached him, a short, quiet spoken, nice fellow that is partly from the Haisla First Edition and another First Nation. And James had been talking to him for some time. This time, though, the guy approached James and James broke our walk.

JAMES: Give me a couple of minutes, okay?

PRODUCER: And said, I have something I have to do. Could you wait for me at this corner? And I did. And while I waited for him at that corner, he took the guys that he talks to him. That's what the guy wanted. He was ready to try.

JAMES: I know, I know exactly what you're going through. Maybe it may be that you're using a different drug or what have you, but it- I still see that person struggling. I can still see that the person lost and feeling unworthy and not deserving of life. I know how that feels.

PRODUCER: Edwin was the first Haisla person James helped as an outreach worker.

JAMES: Very first success story. Edwin.

PRODUCER: Tell me about Edwin.

PRODUCER: I met him on the block.

EDWIN: He just approached me one time in the downtown core when I was drinking, I guess.

JAMES: I remembered him from high school.

PRODUCER: And he looked at Edwin and said, My name was James Harry. I'm from the Haisla First Nation and I want you to know you're not alone.

EDWIN: When he mentioned his name, I said, Oh, you used to play basketball. Didn't you? James Harry.

PRODUCER: Edwin Fow was born into a Haisla family, but I think at age five or six was adopted in Kitimat by a non-First Nations family.

JAMES: He's part of that sixty scoop era.

PRODUCER: In later years, met a girl and was going to have a baby. When his daughter was born, he wasn't there for her. He was off drinking and partying. Two of her family members, male, didn't like what he did and took him out of Haisla. Right now.

EDWIN: They said they didn't care where I went, but they said I was not welcome in Kitimat.

PRODUCER: So he left.

EDWIN: I was like, devastated.

PRODUCER: Got to Vancouver, was drawn like a moth to light to the Downtown Eastside.

EDWIN: It wasn't difficult for me to blend in and get to know people.

PRODUCER: Just the sheer number of indigenous people. And very quickly took out with people who drank, a lot.

EDWIN: Met some people in shelters saying, hey, you want to go and drink and drinking Chinese cooking wine. And gradually I drank real alcohol and beer and gradually [unintelligible] drink and drink and drink and drink. In middle 90s maybe I was drinking hand sanitizer.

PRODUCER: Rubbing alcohol.

EDWIN: Listerine too.

PRODUCER: Hairspray.

EDWIN: I have ended up in hospital periodically. Like I know alcohol is depressing. I'd pick up the phone and say, I'm suicidal, I want to end my life and end up going to the hospital. End up going into the psychiatric ward. Thinking, well, not given my life up because of my family, like, I I know they don't have that kind of money to bury me in or whatever.

PRODUCER: People he knew would pass out and not wake up.

EDWIN: It's brought a lot of my friends that I associated with down. Killed them.

PRODUCER: So I think he tried to heal once himself, got into drugs and came out.

EDWIN: And then I relapsed. And then...

PRODUCER: In the course of that relapse, while he was literally laying on the ground, James walked up to him and reached down and pulled him up.

EDWIN: He said, oh, well, you're ready to do it again.

JAMES: I said, I gave him some options and he was, let's do it.

EDWIN: I said, Yeah.

JAMES: Let's get this going.

EDWIN: He made the arrangements.

PRODUCER: That was two years ago.

EDWIN: He helped me get clean and sober.

PRODUCER: He's alive.

EDWIN: Yes. I owe it all to him for saving my life. It wasn't for James. I probably still out there in my addiction or, six feet under.

PRODUCER: He works a little job.

EDWIN: An organization that end with, Mission Possible.

PRODUCER: And is one of several cleanup crews that clean cleanup along the streets. And he often says there was a time when I used to litter, I'd throw my stuff away. I didn't care. Now I pick up after people that don't know what a garbage can is.

PRODUCER: What was it about James that made you trust and open up to him?

EDWIN: Him being a Haisla, I can make it felt good that somebody out there did care about me. Back then, I didn't think no one cared about me. He's proud of what I accomplished.

PRODUCER: When I sat down to talk to Edwin, when he was just getting ready to leave for Kitimat the next day, he was going back to Haisla. Chief among the reasons for him going back was the hope of meeting his daughter.

EDWIN: If she wants to.

PRODUCER: The daughter who was an infant when he left, she'd be 22 now, maybe twenty.

EDWIN: It's going to be nervous. Maybe I'll take her for dinner and sit down and have a conversation.

JAMES: Down there is who's running from something. They're running from a trauma. It's no secret that what happened to our people in residential schools in the sixties' scoop and the pain they endured in those horrible schools and what they brought back to our communities inflicted are on the community and the families and [unintelligible] today's totally passed on.

PRODUCER: The fentanyl crisis gives more urgency to his work because at least two to three people that I know of that he's tried working with have died of fentanyl overdoses.

JAMES: [Unintelligible] just a Russian roulette.

PRODUCER: He grieves those losses.

JAMES: The one that we lost and we had the connection. They would call and keep in touch. Then you got one call one night, let me know that she didn't make it. That was her breaking. It was made me question if I'm if I'm doing my job right.

PRODUCER: But you've got to go on. There's other lives to still try and save.

JAMES: I've been living in Vancouver approximately 20 years, 25 years.

PRODUCER: Edwin's about 5 foot 7, 5 foot 8. A few times that I've seen him he's wearing a hoodie with Haisla on it. It's a an indigenous design designed by somebody from Haisla.

EDWIN: The hoodie that I'm wearing now is James. James actually gave me along with a pair of sweat sets. It says Haisla a nation down the lake.

PRODUCER: And a Haisla ball cap.

EDWIN: This makes me proud to know where my background is.

JAMES: The day that I met Edwin was also the day that Crystal Smith, the chief counselor of the Haisla First Nation came down to take an outreach walk with James.

EDWIN: I got to actually meet the chief counsel, Crystal.

PRODUCER: She is the face and the voice, for the most part, for the Haisla First Nation.

CRYSTAL SMITH: My name is Crystal Smith. I am the elected chief councillor.

PRODUCER: She said, if we're going to back this program, I want to know what it does. I want to see it. She was shocked. Stunned, I think, in many ways by what she saw especially in those alleys. Later when we went to the [unintelligible]. That's when we Edwin.

EDWIN: I said, yaw'c, which means hello in our language. And she just looked around and James introduced me. And he's got to always put that Mr. This is Mr. Foe, one of our successful person that succeeded. And she says, so you're Edwin, you are amazing to our people.

PRODUCER: And she refers to Edwin as a living, breathing success story.

EDWIN: Oh, is an honor.

JAMES: We had just one member, a walk and walk out man. And I haven’t seen her for a couple of days and I stop and talk for a five minutes and it goes - Like blurt it out, said, I'm not ready today, but just to know that you're here for us and when we're ready means the world to me. And I know it means the world to a lot of people out there, our people out there.

PRODUCER: James makes trips back to Kitimat regularly. It's part of his job. And on the road you go for 18 hours. Could you tell me what that drive is like? That's a long drive.

JAMES: It's a beautiful drive. At certain points of our walk I will think about parts of that drive, going through the canyon. We have our normal stop at the canyon and we will sit on the barrier there and I'll just we'll sit there for about five, 10 minutes just looking at the power of the river.

PRODUCER: What is it like for the person that you're taking home?

JAMES: Off to sleep. More often out they're lost on those two three days banner with no sleep at all, and so always just wake them up for some food and bathroom break and right back at it.

EDWIN: He's the driving force of the downtown core. He tries to help.

JAMES: I feel this position them knowing that they have a little piece of home that is trying to help them.

EDWIN: I do miss home. But when I go home, it's only for a visit. Unless something comes up when I go up there and my daughter tells me, Dad, can you live at home? Then the Dad part will probably say yes. Okay, I'll stay home.

PRODUCER: Well, I spoke to Edwin by phone the other day. He said he went to Kitimat, but he didn't end up connecting with his daughter while he was there. And he was reticent about why, but he did hold out hope that one day they might meet again. Edwin's back in Vancouver, back working at the same place he worked at before, and he's still sober approaching his third year of sobriety.

JAMES: When I see the marina, and I see I see the water to see the ocean. It, they feel grounded. I want everybody I work with, everybody that come and talk to us who is struggling with alcohol and drugs to feel the way I feel today. When they're ready, I'm here.

CC: We have been listening to Not Alone, it was produced by the CBC's Warmish Hamilton Rafferty Baker and the current documentary editor, Joan Weber. Earlier this month, the documentary received a Jack Webster Award for best radio feature. Since we first aired the story in February, the Nisko Nation in British Columbia has hired its own outreach worker who works alongside James. Harry Famish is with me now with some updates I would wish. And congratulations on the Webster. Award.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CC: So tell us what has happened with James since we first heard that documentary?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Well, in the written story that accompanied the documentary, at the end of it, it leaves off with James looking for a young man that he had been working with, young Haisla man, that he'd been working with for a year and a half previous. His name was Dakota and he'd been looking for him. And on our outreach box, we never found him. And there was kind of a desperation trying to find him with fentanyl closing and there was a lot of fentanyl deaths, overdoses on the Downtown Eastside. And we were a month away, I believe, from the pandemic. So there was a kind of a desperation to find him, but we never found him at the end. And at the end of the story, it left off with James looking for him like he walked off into the distance and he was looking in corners and alleys and on the street. And that was rather symbolic of the work that he does. He looks for his own people struggling with addiction. Well, a couple of months after the documentary, he found him again. And he'd first become aware of him when his family asked him to watch out for him, and then he heard by word of mouth from other guys, the people in the Downtown Eastside, that there was this 22 year old kid that was living in an alley. Haisla kid. And James, on one of his outreach, walks one day in those alleys in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, found him. And Dakota, as it turns out, when they started talking, had known James, his son briefly in elementary school, went to elementary school with him just for a very short period of time before he moved to Vancouver. So he was familiar with who James was. And they struck up a rapport. They knew each other was from Haisla. He'd gone to school with his son. So there was an immediate connexion, you know, that James could build on. He'd already been working with him over a year and a half. And for the next little while, James continued to outreach with him and stop and visit him and talk with him and encourage him to seek healing. As in James words, there's another life waiting for you if you just reach out and reach back. Dakota didn't at that time.

CC: He just wasn't able to?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Yes and no. He was so deep into his addictions and he was addicted to crack cocaine, crystal meth and heroin that he wasn't in a place yet to accept James's offer of help. But eventually he got there. And I spoke to both of them recently, and they can best pick up this story.

SOUNDCLIP

DAKOTA: It was just a life of regret and literally just thinking about the next paycheque so I could get high again. I was surviving. I wasn't living in any way whatsoever.

JAMES: He was pretty sick and he was pretty just not healthy. He was in a very bad state.

DAKOTA: I was going home at all. Basically the back alleys and on the street, wherever I went down was where I went down, just too tired to keep walking. I'd get up and walk through the alleys and I'd be digging through garbage and looking for whatever I could and then at some point becoming desperate enough to go and steal something from stores. I was like just always so tired and I'd be doing that from when I wake up and be walking all day. And then just go on until 2:00 in the morning, then I'll wake up withdrawing and then do it over again.

JAMES: You know, with the drugs that are going around downtown there that are causing infections in the body and it affected him.

DAKOTA: And I didn't really hang out with anybody at all. And then all of a sudden he just shows up saying, I'm alone and I'm just like. And she just kept asking me, like, why? Why do you keep doing this to yourself? I want you to stop. I told my child to stop and I just saw no point in staying sober and being lonely.

JAMES: He was just continuously showing them that we cared. And I mean, I mean by myself and the nation. I'm out here. I'm here on behalf of the whole nation. And I tell them that I said I keep tell them that you're not alone. You deserve a good life. You know, your nation cares about you. That's why I'm here.

JAMES: She says I can keep coming to you, Dakota. I got, you know, to move on and try out somebody else. They need help. You don't want help. I told them I wanted help, but I wasn't making any effort into recovery.

JAMES: At the time, he was very withdrawn and very, very cold and very you know, he didn't take it very well, didn't affect him very much. But as but as time came, time went on. He started he started to see that it was that I wasn't going anywhere.

DAKOTA: I literally was on my deathbed, but I, I just felt like I had no other choice. I didn't want to die by myself. And they just said, OK, I'll come with you, I'll go to the hospital.

JAMES: He felt the love, you know, he felt the love of that of everybody we had at one point we had like we had a meeting for him and we had like 10 people sit around the table, all who worked with Dakota or I work in the and all with one hope of mine was to keep them alive. And I thought that was pretty touching. And I'll never forget that, just how everybody worked together just to they wanted to and they wanted to keep him alive.

DAKOTA: Yes. Like, because my addiction did hold me like a death grip. So I was like literally minutes away from dying. I guess I just kept sitting there, lying there using [unintelligible] dead, definitely.

CC: That's so powerful, Wawmeesh. Dakota is finally ready for help. What does that help look like?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Well, as he told James, he knew he was going to die if he stayed out there any longer. And it was going to happen sooner rather than later. And he reached back to James saying that he was ready to take that step towards that other life that was waiting for him. So James and Dakota, they got him into the hospital where he needed to spend some time because he had external damage to his body from, for instance, not taking care of his personal hygiene. He was coated with lice. He had gaping open wounds. One of them, he said he could fit a golf ball and in his leg and he had internal damage as well from tainted drugs that he'd been using. So he had to go to the hospital and spend some time to physically recover from that. Once he was in a space, in a place where he was recovered enough that he could move, they brought him to a recovery home, a men's recovery home in Prince Rupert.

CC: And what is life like for him at the recovery home?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It's night and day from where he was. I mean, where he was sleeping in an alley, waking up in an alley, fishing through garbage cans throughout the day and plying his addiction day in, day out, night in, night out. But here he is in a home, a good home. He's got Piers. The men who run the home are good role models who have been through what he's been through and therefore, you know, understand the journey that he's on. He sleeps regularly. He eats regularly. And those are some things that we take for granted. But for people such as Dakota that are in a circumstances such as this, those are huge. He's he goes through the structure of the home every day. They've got programmes that they have for the men. They also meet several times a day for their 12 step programmes. And he's become a constant companion. He and the house dog, a house dog named Labrador, are constant companions. They never leave each other's side. He takes them for walks three times a day. And even during the the TV interview we did with him, the dog sat with him on his lap and he would pet him. And they're just their constant companions.

CC: It sounds like an incredible change from what his life was like in that alley.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It is, yes. You know, James always told Dakota there's another life waiting for you. And now Dakota is just beginning to live it and they are both beginning to see what the future could look like for him.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES: We all deserve a good life. We are at one point or another, take a take a wrong turn, make some bad choices. And, you know, with the drugs today, one bad choice will affect you for the rest of your life or may take your life. So today he's making good choices and he seems to be fine. He's fine and you can see that light in his eyes again.

DAKOTA: I'm going to continue recovering the rest of my life. And I just want to- what I want is to get a job, have a place and be able to be financed and be there for a son that I have. Be there for his mother and also help to help people the way they help me, because there's so many people helping those in my [unintelligible].

CC: Dakota has a son?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: He does, I believe, the youngster's about four years old, and I don't I can't speak to the contact that they've had. He was a little guarded about what he said and what he revealed about his son. That being said, he's beginning to think outside of himself now, about others that are close to him. And that was the first person he thought was his son and his son's mother, what place he could have in their lives, what he could do for them. He's beginning to see and think about these now the further he goes into his healing.

CC: You also talked about the physical trauma that he sustained. How is his physical healing going?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: He's physically all right, but he has to go back to the hospital at some point for further surgery because one of the things that he damaged was one of his heart valves as a result of tainted drugs he was using. So he needs to be a little stronger and he also needs to be drug and alcohol free for a bit longer. Mind you, it's been eight months, but for a bit longer so that his body is strong enough and that he is committed enough to staying off drugs and alcohol, that he can endure the surgery.

CC: Let's turn back to James for a minute. His programme, what's changing for him?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Well, a few things. You know, when I accompanied James on outreach walks, he was always alone. And his message to every Haisla person he met struggling with addiction on the Downtown Eastside was one of those messages was you're not alone. Yet, he himself worked alone doing this. But while he was down in the Downtown Eastside, especially in those alleys looking for indigenous people in his Haisla people struggling with addiction, he saw indigenous people from a lot of other First Nations, not just in B.C. You know, they were indigenous people from Vancouver Island, from the mainland, from the north, from the interior, from other provinces. He wished there were other First Nations outreach workers working with him, looking for their own people. And now these months later, that's a reality that's come to a reality. There are three other first nations that have now hired outreach workers to work with James to look for their own people on the Downtown Eastside. And they do outreach work in their communities as well. They're looking for their own people and it's a start.

CC: And how hopeful is James about the difference that those other outreach workers could make?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: You know, hope is a scarce commodity down there. It's oftentimes the last thing that indigenous people have left. Well, I accompanied James on those outreach walks. I was mindful of the fact that I'm a journalist there to do a story. But on several of those walks, you know, I noticed my own people, some of my own people down there. And for them, there was no James Harry, you know, there are people like many others who are running from their traumas. You know, there's elders down there. I saw elders down there. I saw teens down there. But as I learnt with James and I learnt his way through his work with Dakota, hope comes one person at a time. And that's for the many others, you know, that we don't see or hear still waiting for someone to to bring them some hope. Yes. And for them, you know, it'll be their turn to discover all life, the life that's waiting for them, just as it was waiting for Dakota.

CC: Thank you for taking the time to bring us this update, Wawmeesh.

WAWMEESH HAMiLTON: Thank you for having me on.

CC: Wawmeesh Hamilton is associate producer with CBC Vancouver's Urban Nations Unit.

This guy swore off the internet for all of 2020. Then the pandemic hit

Guests: Aaron Rosenberg

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

CC: Jamiroquai’s Virtual Insanity seems like a fitting soundtrack to much of this year, the year when zooming and face timing became our favourite verbs. So it's hard to imagine how one person unplugged and went without the Internet for a full year. Aaron Rosenberg is a PhD student in Montreal, closing in on one year off the Web. Good morning, Aaron.

ARON ROSENBERG: Hi, Catherine. Thanks so much for having me on.

CC: It's very nice to meet you. I'm wondering, are you, like, counting the sleeps until you can log back on at this point?

ARON ROSENBERG: I'm actually not as excited as I thought I would be. I'm getting pretty anxious for all the new things that I'm going to have to do once I'm back online. I was, I remember last December around this time, I was pretty stressed about going offline. And I think I am more stressed now about the potential of going back online. And I of course, it'll be really nice to be able to connect with my family and friends over resume. And for my research, it'll be a lot easier and more convenient. But it's just overwhelming, both personally and I guess politically.

CC: A hard fought lesson here. Make sure you're off mute before you start talking. Everyone's had to listen to what he thinks about that. Yeah, I do want to know, though, and I'm sure people listening want to know, why did you do this? Why did you go a year without the Internet?

ARON ROSENBERG: And it's a really it's a hard question to answer, because I think I knew I wanted to spend a year offline before I actually came up with my reasons for it. But um, a big part of it had to do with refusing to accept the labour conditions of the people who like mine and manufacture and support and dispose of our digital devices. I learnt a lot about that this year and how often we we displace a lot of the labour that we would be doing offline to the Internet, and that ends up making people in the global south often have to do a lot of work that we don't necessarily see, and trying to --

CC: Like what?

ARON ROSENBERG: I mean, the mining in in China, in the Congo is, I think, a big a big part of it. The different conflict minerals that are involved in our phones, like the cobalt or the coltan, are both mined in conflict zones that have resulted in lots of armed conflict. And I think if you take it one step later into the manufacturing, I think we all have heard a little bit about the manufacturing of smartphones and other digital devices. And I think it's important for us to be aware of the way these devices come into our hands. And often that's something that we don't think enough about. And I also want to add, like I'm totally in favour of using the Internet and all sorts of the amazing ways that it has potential to be used. I just think we need to be a bit more critical or conscious of the way that these devices do have impacts beyond our own immediate experience.

CC: Mm hmm. Obviously, all excellent points. There are, I guess, a lot of ways that you can approach trying to draw attention to those issues. But you make this commitment, you say, OK, I'm going to do this. And then like everyone else, all of a sudden you're swept up in this global pandemic and it makes that online interconnectedness that much more important. In March, did you say, I'm not so sure about this, maybe I should put this experiment of mine on pause? How did you react?

ARON ROSENBERG: Yes, actually, I got a few phone calls from concerned family members and friends saying that maybe it wasn't the best time to be continuing with my research with this project. And I think, as you pointed out, when covid hit, everything changed. We started doing work online. School was online, shopping went online, even eating out now with QR codes instead of paper menus. Like, I think there's no turning back. And realising how mandatory the Internet has become now made my year a little bit different. It made me more concerned with advocating for communities that don't have Internet access. And I know in Canada there's lots of rural communities and low income communities who still struggle to access the Internet. And I think especially now, but even before covid, we really need to make sure to advocate for those people and to challenge our government to provide better infrastructure. I have a classmate at McGill who lives just outside of Montreal and Kahnawake, and her family pays for the best Internet available in her area. And they actually have two different packages, like they're getting the best Internet from two different service providers. And she still doesn't have good enough Internet to participate in class. So I think we really have to, especially with covid, think about what does it mean that the Internet is so mandatory now and the website is making sure people can access it. But the other side is, as I was speaking about earlier, that maybe there's some ways the Internet seems mandatory, that it may not be. And so this year has helped me try to think about which parts of the Internet do I really care about and love and want to harness when I get back online, and which parts might I be more cautious about?

CC: Well, I'd like to get into the nitty gritty of how it works. When I heard you were doing this, I had had so many questions that maybe are a poor reflection upon my lifestyle. But I wondered, like, does that mean that he went the whole year? We're all bingeing Netflix and you're not watching. You didn't do any Zoome calls. Like, tell me what the specific commitment was.

ARON ROSENBERG: Sure. So besides not using the Internet, I also don't have a smartphone and I make sure not to look at other people's screens when they were online. And I also didn't allow myself to ask people to do things online for me. So as you pointed out, that was a big challenge this year. And from the school and work perspective, it was, I think, more inconvenient. Whereas for the entertainment and that kind of perspective, I have enough DVD and VHS tapes to last more than a year. So I've been okay on that front, although I am watching some new things.

CC: Glad to hear it. Tell me about some moments where it was a particular challenge or where you had to develop some workarounds? Like I'm wondering if there are concretions. Yeah, there comes, staying informed or doing your doing your work.

ARON ROSENBERG: Well, one thing, my brother and his wife had a baby this year. Oh, well, Ariah is your name and they're in Toronto and I'm in Montreal. So luckily, she was born in the interim between the first and second lockdown's. So we were able to actually me and my partner were able to go to Toronto. We rented a car and this was the first big trip we were doing without electronic maps. And my partner, he's also a student at McGill. He studies epidemiology and he is very much online. But he's been such a good sport this year with this project so far, this trip to Toronto. He also refused with me to use our digital devices. And we use paper maps and I'm only 31, so I didn't really grow up travelling very much with paper maps, at least not on my own. And it turns out, especially with highway signs and stuff, it's super easy and straightforward, which maybe sounds a bit naive. But I guess we've become so used to using digital alternatives that when we realised or when I realised this year certain things that were actually very convenient without those online options, I was a bit surprised that we've rushed so quickly to just assume that we can't do things without the online support.

CC: Hmm. I love that story. The paper maps of a terrible direction, but I do remember using them. They are not necessarily positive memories also. Congratulations, Uncle Aaron. Interesting to think about the world that that your niece is going to grow up and that is so attuned to the Internet. I wonder, did you cheat? Did you have any lapses?

ARON ROSENBERG: Actually, I didn't cheat per say, but there were three incidents this year that made my rules the challenge, my rules. The first one was way back in January. My friend Davie visited from Austin, Texas. He's an old friend from my undergrad. And as soon as he arrived, he wanted to show me a picture of a woman he'd been chatting with on a dating app. So he sat down beside me and pulled up the photo. And as soon as my eyes hit the screen, I realised what was happening. They turned away. It was too late. I panicked. Definitely. I was like, Oh, no, I'm looking at the Internet. And he was like, oh, but like, it's already downloaded on my phone. And I was like, no, that's against my rules. So that was the first time. The second time was in February. I got to visit some friends who lived in Berlin. I was lucky to have that trip planned right before covid. And one of my friends asked me his phone to text another friend, both who lived in Berlin. And it was already open to the conversation and I assumed it was just the text conversation. So I texted my friend and later when he showed up, he said, and, you know, you just WhatsApp me. And I swear it felt like a text. But I guess I, I guess I can't tell the difference between WhatsApp and text screens on a smartphone. And then the last one was the most conscious one. And this was a bit more serious. And this was in May, I believe I needed to register for McGill for the following year in order to maintain my funding and maintain my student status. And before covid started, I had worked with my registrar to figure out how to register offline. But when it hit and all the administrative staff on the campus started working from home, they weren't actually able to process offline things in the same way they expected they would be able to beforehand. So I got in touch with the registrar and he was very supportive and apologetic, but he just said there's no way that I can do this for you from home. Like, he just didn't have the administrative privileges. So I ended up turning to my friend Vanessa, who was a classmate of mine, and I gave her my McGill login information and she just registered for me, and I felt pretty like I was breaking my rules. But after talking to my supervisor and to Vanessa, I realised that part of the lesson of this year has been how important it is to rely on people and how, as I brought up at the beginning of the conversation, when we're using the Internet, we're relying on all sorts of people that we don't see. And so by being offline this year, I started to realise how much I do rely on people. And I've tried to nurture those interdependent relationships because I think it's I mean, online or off. It's the way that the world is working. And it also, I think is the way the world feels meaningful is how we connect with other people.

CC: Yes. And again, like, what a fascinating time to be doing. That's what we're already all thinking about, our both our interconnectedness and I think our social maybe estrangement from each other. So you are getting close to the end of this Internet fast. I started by asking about this. What's the plan for when you can finally log back on?

ARON ROSENBERG: Well, on January 1st, I'm a little bit of a dramatic person, so I have decided to do a performance for my first 20 minutes. So I would love for you and your listeners to join. It'll just be over Twitter, a public livestream, and you can find it by going to Twitte.com/osherl. That's OSHERL, which is my Yiddish name and my middle name. And that would be on January 1st. So this Friday at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time, 3:00 p.m. and real time Twitter.com/osherl.

CC: How do you feel about it? Pumped?

ARON ROSENBERG: As I said, I'm nervous. I'm excited to do it as a performance and to share with my friends this experience. And I think that's been the biggest takeaway of the year is that if this experience of being offline was just for me, it's sort of useless. But throughout the year, I've been trying to stay in touch with friends. I have about 250 people I've been mailing on a monthly basis. And throughout the year I've sent out over 3500 letters.

CC: Wow.

ARON ROSENBERG: Not nearly as many in return, but still a lot in return. And trying to share the types of lessons I've been learning and the types of research I've been doing has made this year for me, something that's not just about doing a fun experiment, but also about trying to explore how students and how educators can support people to be more critical online and use the Internet in ways that serve them and that they can be more conscientious about.

CC: Fascinating. And we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about it. I wish you all the best catching up on all those tech talk memes that you missed. Thank you very much, Aaron. Thank you. Aaron Rosenberg has gone the last year without Internet. His first reconnection, as he said, will be on January 1st at three p.m. on Twitter.

The Current Transcript for December 30, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CERB repayments

First Nations outreach in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside

This guy swore off the internet for all of 2020. Then the pandemic hit

Wednesday December 30, 2020 Full Transcript

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