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The Current Transcript for December 20, 2019

Host: Jayme Poisson

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Those people who are shouting and screaming can do something productive. Go and help someone out in need. Do a good turn for somebody else rather than just holding up placards that, you know, in other words, the words spelt correctly on.

JAYME POISSON: Okay. So that was Australia's deputy prime minister responding to the rising protest over who's in charge of the battle to control the wildfires raging throughout that country. With temperatures hitting record highs and only getting worse, we'll talk to a mayor on the frontlines who says the climate crisis is the culprit. After that:

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VOICE 1: What are you doing there?

VOICE 2: Taking one last look, Sir, at my friends.

[Music]

JP: So I've already got my tickets lined up. How do you? The more than four decades long journey, that is Star Wars conclude this weekend with the release of the final installment, The Rise of Skywalker. What better way to kick off the holiday than to chart this cultural phenomenon? That's in half an hour. But first, new rules around vaping. But will they work? I'm Jayme Poisson, in for Laura Lynch. This is The Current.

Vaping, Australia fires

Guests: Dr. Andrew Pipe, Mark Greenhill

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: This is definitely a first step, and that's certainly what the health minister talked about. There's a lot more information to gather. There's a lot more understanding to know. We know that restricting access and restricting advertising, particularly its impact on young people, is a significant step. But we're very worried about the reports of extremely negative impacts of vaping.

JP: The first step, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is talking about concerns his government's new proposed regulations on vaping. The new rules will try to curb youth vaping by restricting the kind of advertising that companies can do. But there are no plans so far to restrict flavors, think cucumber or mango. And that, among other things, has some experts worried. Dr. Andrew Pipe is a professor in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Ottawa, a smoking cessation expert and a clinician and researcher at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute. He's in our Ottawa studio. Hello, Dr. Pipe.

ANDREW PIPE: Good morning.

JP: Thank you so much for joining me this morning.

ANDREW PIPE: It's a pleasure.

JP: When we heard the prime minister say just now, restricting access, is that what these new rules are going to do?

ANDREW PIPE: Well, I don't think the rules themselves are going to do that. This is an interesting first step. And, you know, I think it is important to congratulate the minister of health, who in her first few weeks has done more by calling attention to this issue and announcing these initial regulations than has been done in the last three years. There is good news and in a sense that now the ball is starting to roll, but the ball needs to roll much more quickly and go much further. If we're to address what I would quite deliberately call the public health crisis that is now represented by the epidemic of vaping, particular amongst teenagers and young adults.

JP: Can you take me through very quickly what these new rules are?

ANDREW PIPE: These rules will basically regulate advertising as it's intended to appeal to youth. So it will restrict online advertising, it will restrict any kind of advertising oriented to youth. It will restrict where that advertising can be displayed, et cetera, et cetera. So this is, as noted, an initial first step. It's necessary, but it's far, far, far from sufficient. And I think the concern of clinicians, of health organizations, of educators, of parents is still being met with, shall I say, a degree of studied indifference on the part of Health Canada. It's quite frustrating that Health Canada has been in receipt of advice for over three years about what might be necessary to thoughtfully regulate these products. And yet there's been very little until yesterday's announcement that's anywhere meaningful.

JP: Can you tell me what regulations would you like to see here?

ANDREW PIPE: Well, I think it's important that we probably learn the lessons of the past and use the approaches that were taken to so successfully drive down youth smoking rates. And, of course, the challenge, from a public policy sense, is that any attempt to introduce these regulations is always met by a flurry of opposition from the tobacco industry who now are in a new incarnation in the vaping industry. And with characteristic reptilian stealth, they will do everything possible to prevent any regulations. But those regulations should include focusing on the content and the concentration of the products and vaping liquids the way, for instance, that the government of Nova Scotia has done it. Also, we need to ensure that there are strong health warnings that was announced yesterday. Yes, we need to ensure that there's plain packaging, that there are appropriate pricing policies. The government of B.C. has already announced that they're going to increase the sales tax on vaping devices to 20 percent in the new year. So much more needs to be done. Much more is being done. When you look at what's happening in the United States, where cities and state legislatures are distinctly raising the bar in terms of regulating these products. And so far in Canada, we've got these initial first steps.

JP: Health Canada says it will still allow flavors and nicotine based vaping products. And what are the risks involved in allowing these flavored products? So we're talking like mango flavored or strawberry flavored vaping devices.

ANDREW PIPE: Yeah. There are hundreds of these kinds of flavors and it's absurd that they are allowed to continue to exist in these products. I mean, quite frankly, we know very little about what the effect the heating of these kept flavoring chemicals and then putting them into it, tissue as sensitive as the lungs will produce. But the signals that we are already aware of. Show that this is not a good thing. And you know that there's no other consumer product that would be allowed to get away with what the vaping industry is getting away with at the moment. If you introduced a deodorant or a dish soap that had an array of chemicals which were known to produce very significant and concerning changes in lung or hand or skin function, they'd be off the market tomorrow. And yet there's always been this considerable timidity on the part of governments when it comes to regulating the tobacco industry and its many, many products.

JP: Can you tell me. Why are the flavors not a good thing?

ANDREW PIPE: Well, the flavors are really there for only one reason to attract youth to these devices and all of the surveys of youth- and by the way, the overwhelming majority of the purchases of these devices are teenagers and young adults. And it's the flavors that make them so attractive. And of course, youth are somewhat oblivious to the reality that they're also getting huge doses of nicotine and within 48 hours will become addicted to nicotine. And so if you want to really address the issue of youth vaping, flavors are high on the list of things that should be immediately addressed.

JP: Well, we know the number of kids and teenagers. The latest numbers I've seen have doubled since 2016. One in five teens now say they have shaped in the last 30 days. Those are pretty astounding numbers, eh?

ANDREW PIPE: Yeah, and the numbers of teenagers who are vaping on a daily basis has also increased. And this is no longer just restricted to high schools. We're now seeing this in, you know, the upper grades of the public school system. So very, very concerning data which hopefully will impel the minister of health and her officials to move very quickly to introduce the regulations which are now being introduced elsewhere, particularly in the provinces and in other sectors around the world.

JP: You mentioned some other provinces have regulations in place. What's the danger in having different regulations in different provinces?

ANDREW PIPE: Well, I think the big danger is that now we'll have a patchwork quilt of regulations that will vary across the country. And that's not good. And this is where the federal government has particular responsibility to provide that distinct leadership in ensuring that high quality regulations of these products are in place, so that provinces don't have to try to play catch up to fill the policy vacuum that's been left by the absence of Health Canada's action in this area.

JP: There have been 14 cases of vaping associated lung illness reported to the Public Health Agency of Canada this year. I'm going to imagine that you were going to say that these new proposed rules aren't necessarily going to help that. What would help that?

JP: Well, I think it will be regulating the nature of the product, regulating the content of of nicotine, eliminating the flavors, restricting access to the chemicals that can be added to these solutions, which make it far more likely that somebody becomes addicted to nicotine. That's an age old trick of the tobacco industry. And I think it's also important to recognize that those 14 cases in Canada probably under represent the actual number of cases. And what clinicians have been asked to look for are kind of acute lung conditions produced by vaping. We're now beginning to see powerful signals that many of the features of chronic lung conditions are beginning to emerge in those who are vaping. We're also seeing signals, we're seeing evidence that those who vape and continue to smoke - which is, by the way, the overwhelming majority of smokers who start to use these devices - have a risk of cardio respiratory conditions, heart and lung kind of conditions. That is far greater than the use of either of those products used alone, the sum being greater than the total of the parts, if you get what I mean. So very significant implications, which certainly call for thoughtful regulation of these products.

JP: I want to talk to you briefly about cannabis vapes. So as of this week, cannabis vapes are now legal, federally. And Health Canada says they're going to test these products that are already on the market. We asked Health Canada for comment and it sent us a statement that says in part, quote: "Health Canada has placed a priority on setting stringent regulatory controls on the ingredients that can be put into cannabis vaping products". And, quote: "to be clear, licensed processors are responsible for ensuring that all their products meet the requirements set out in the Cannabis Act and the cannabis regulations, including not selling a cannabis product that contains anything that may cause injury to the health of the user when used as intended or in a reasonably foreseeable way". That was a bit of a mouthful. But what do you make of that statement?

ANDREW PIPE: Well, I think it's a very. Honest statement here we have products already on the market. Now Health Canada is going to try to assess what the emissions are and what their impact might be on health. And we're going to strictly regulate what can be added to these devices. Why aren't you doing exactly the same thing with conventional nicotine vaping devices? Why aren't you preventing, you know, there's just so much irony there. And it's also a bit like the horse has bolted. Let's close the stable door and put padlocks on it.

JP: Okay. Dr. Andrew Pipe, thank you so much.

ANDREW PIPE: It's a pleasure. Thank you for your interest.

JP: Dr. Andrew Pipe is a professor in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Ottawa and the former chief of the Division of Prevention and Rehabilitation at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute. He was in our studio in Ottawa. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. I'm Jayme Poisson.

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[Indistinct speech]

JP: In case you couldn't make that out, flames are reaching 60 to 70 meters high. That was a firefighter in the Blue Mountains outside Sydney, Australia, talking over the roar of a wall of fire. A state of emergency has been declared in the Australian state of New South Wales for the second time in two months. Firefighters are battling more than 100 active fires amid a record breaking heat wave. Nine people have died and around 800 dwellings in New South Wales destroyed. And amidst all of this, a national conversation about climate change has the government on the defensive. My next guest is living in the heart of the crisis. Mark Greenhill is the mayor of Blue Mountains, 100 kilometers west of Sydney. Hello, Mark.

MARK GREENHILL: Good evening. How are you?

JP: I'm well, thank you. Can you tell me what it's like where you are right now?

MARK GREENHILL: Well, there's tension in the air. I've come tonight from Rural Fire Brigade in Blaxland, not far from where I live. There was a cheeky spirit in the air, playfully teasing each other, as they do with their sort of knockabout senses of humor. Knowing, I guess, in their heart of hearts that they're probably masking what they're really feeling. And that is that tomorrow they face in this part of the Blue Mountains some awful conditions. It'll be 47 degrees. Winds of up to 80 kilometers an hour in the city of Blue Mountains is surrounded by fire. We've got fire to the south, fire to the north and fire to the west. Circumstances that they confront tomorrow are unprecedented. And yet that same cheeky sense of humor prevails tonight. They are volunteers, all of them. And it can only be suddenly called community spirit.

JP: Can you tell me a little bit more about what it's like there? What is the air quality like?

MARK GREENHILL: Well, it's very smoky, hot. Normally, the Blue Mountains has got the crispest, clearest skies you'd imagine. It's a World Heritage area. The night sky is full of stars. But right now the sky is close. Slow down. It's full of smoke, all you smell is smoke. And that's pretty much how it's been since October. We have a 100 plus fires in this state alone, but we also have fires in Western Australia and Queensland and our friends in Victoria. So we have a nation that's on fire, inexplicable heat waves. We're in the middle of one of the worst droughts on record. Humidity tomorrow will be in the single digits while the temperatures soar to 47 and the winds right above us now, while we have walls of fire all around us, it's pretty difficult night.

JP: Mark, have you ever seen anything like this before?

MARK GREENHILL: Well, I've seen bushfires before. Nothing like this. You know, where resources are stretched so thin because the state is dealing with a 100 fires. The city next door to us [Unintelligible], a tragic death yesterday of two magnificent human beings, two volunteer firefighters who are frankly heroes, unprecedented pressure on those services dealing with so many fires in such awful conditions. And the conditions are just appalling. It's that this drought is just going on and on and on.

JP: I'm so sorry to hear about how this is affecting your community. Can you tell me a little bit more about how this is affecting the firefighters?

MARK GREENHILL: Well, they're exhausted. As I say, we have professional firefighters and volunteer firefighters, and our emergency services are stretched thin. They've been going at this since October, just going out over and over and over again, defending our area, but defending other areas as well. So they are just exhausted and there's just no end in sight. And they keep going, I guess, because of a love of community and their fellow human being.

JP: You recently shared an open letter to Australian leaders asking them to take control of the crisis or get out of the way. Why are you frustrated with the government?

JP: Well, I mean, we have a government that is doing, a federal government, that's doing nothing about climate change, in my view. The council I lead will be emissions neutral, zero emissions by 2025 or running ahead of schedule on that with a small council can do it. Why can't the government at least address the issue? Our coal reliant federal government seems to want to once deny the reality, and the reality is we are in the middle of a climate emergency. No doubt there is a climate of urgency.

JP: Speaking of your prime minister, this week a group of climate activists camped outside the official residence of your prime minister, Scott Morrison, asking him to come from a holiday to help manage the crisis. He's since said sorry and is planning to return to Sydney. But in response to the protesters, the deputy prime minister, Michael McCormack, told them, quote: "Go and do something productive". Here's a bit of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

Go donate your time to Meals on Wheels or something like that. Fact is, the Prime Minister is not there. So he's having a well-deserved holiday. So go and do something productive. Go and help someone out in need. Do a good turn for somebody else rather than just shouting and screaming and holding up placards.

JP: Mark, what do you think of what he had to say there?

MARK GREENHILL: Well, I mean, I think it's disappointing that the deputy prime minister of Australia would speak like that. He recently said that, you know, it was disgraceful for people to talk about the issue of climate change while we're having all these bushfires. Well, you know, about three or four months of the year, there's not bushfire season these days. So if we can only talk about climate change not bushfire season, we'd better speak quickly because the bushfire season extends, it will be around. He also said that climate change was the province of inner city lefties. Well, I might fit the second category, but I certainly don't fit the first. I'm not in the city. I'm sitting out here in the middle of a World Heritage area that's on fire. I do feel entitled to speak about climate change because my community and I are going through it. I think this is a disappointing example of an absence of political leadership. Look, as to whether Scott Morrison takes a holiday or not, I don't care to pass comment on that. Where I am, though, I am right here with my community. I was out on the ground in Mount Wilson in Mount [unintelligible] out to the north of our city a couple of days ago, after those 70 metre flames you talked about went through. I help people. I took a team out with me and we did things like get water for people, get fuel for their generators because there's no power. We started to help them on the long road to recovery with immediate practical assistance. They'll be a long, long recovery process for those people and their local government will walk that journey with them. You have to lead with compassion in times like this, because even if you didn't lose your home, to experience a wall of flame, 70 metres high, coming through, something that traumatizes you, it leaves with you for a long time It's there when you close your eyes at night. And so we have to recognise that can be present and walk the journey of recovery with our communities.

JP: Mark Greenhill, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. We'll be thinking about you and your community during this holiday season.

MARK GREENHILL: Thank you so much for telling our story.

JP: Mark Greenhill is the mayor of Blue Mountains, 100 kilometers west of Sydney, Australia. Coming up in the next half hour, the final Star Wars movie is now playing. Some producers of The Current asked kids, including their own young Jedis, what Star Wars means to them. You're going to want to stick around to listen to this. They'll take us to the CBC News. I'm Jayme Poisson. You're listening to the current season?

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CHILD 1: Okay, spoiler alert. If you haven't watched Mandalorian, do not listen.

CHILD 2: I have to say.

[Music]

CHILD 3: Baby Yoda.

CHILD 2: Baby Yoda.

CHILD 1: Oh, Jedi.

CHILD 1: Baby Yoda is going to be a Jedi, no?

CHILD 1: Yes but best character-.

CHILD 1: [Unintelligible] then, Yoda.

CHILD 2: Ahsoka, She's cool because she's [unintelligible].

CHILD 4: Hello. My name is Isla Blamire and I like Star Wars because it has a lot of action, which is eye catching. And my favorite character is Rae. And there's a lot of mythical creatures which are interesting to look at.

CHILD 5: My name is Caitlin. I'm eleven and I started being Stol's fan around kindergarten. I just like watched withy dad. It just became fun. I usually pretty much every year I always go on the first day. I even dressed up to Atos. I've been like a stone tuple. I did, Ray.

CHILD 6: My name is Felix. I'm 15 years old and I've been a Star Wars fan since I was six. My favorite lesser battle, Luke versus Vader on Cloud City in the Empire Strikes Back because it was the first time we saw Jedi in their prime fighting as fast as they possibly could. They were very energetic and it was very exciting to watch.

CHILD 7: Duel of the Fates in episode one, The Phantom Menace, that was the first time they had a double bladed light saber in Star Wars. And everyone was like, Oh, what!

CHILD 8: My name is Oliver. I'm eleven and I've been a Star Wars fan since I was four.

CHILD 9: My favorite scene of dialog is in Revenge of the Sith when Obi Wan surprises General Grievous and is like, hello there, Grievous is like [changes tone] Hello Groovy.

CHILD 10: My name is a Lily Blamire bloomer and I've been a Star Wars fan since I was three years old. I really like the variety of species there and I like the continuous fight between good and evil.

Child 11: Before Star Wars, they didn't have any like a bunch of blades that were lighting up that you could just press a button. There's a whole new basically type of movie.

[Music]

Daisy Ridley's Rey inspired a new generation of female Star Wars fans, says cosplayer

Guests: Rebecca Harrison, David Christopher

JP: Hello, I'm Jayme Poisson, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Still to come. Planning a holiday meal usually involves shopping at the supermarket. But for some, it means scouring the side of the road for meat that otherwise might go to waste. We're talking roadkill and a half an hour. But first, how do you sum up 40 years of cinematic history in under two minutes? Well, we're going to give it a try.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Oh, boy, I love you.

VOICE 2: You almost got us killed. Are you brainless? Get out of here.

VOICE 1: No no. Meesa stay. Meesa call Jarjar. Meesa your humble servant.

VOICE 3: I don't like sound. It's cause, rough and irritating, it gets everyone I to get.

VOICE 2: I have failed you. I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over. Chancellor Palpatine is evil. From my point of view the Jedi evil. You are lost.

VOICE 4: Use the force, Luke.

[Music and noise]

VOICE 5: You're all clear, kid. [Unintelligible] Go home.

[Sound: Explosion].

VOICE 5: Luke, I'm your father.

[Noise]

VOICE 6: Oh my head

VOICE 5: Oh, my goodness. I could be mistaken, but I do believe they think I am some sort of God. Well, why don't you use your divine influence and get us out of this?

VOICE 5: I beg your pardon, General, but it's against my programing to impersonate a dead.

VOICE 7: It's true. The force, the Jedi, all of it, it's all true.

VOICE 8: But the past died. Kill it if you have to. It's the only way to become what you were meant to be.

JP: So there it is, the long narrative arc of Star Wars, good versus evil, light versus dark, some questionable, maybe cheesy dialog mixed in. The saga concludes with a viewing of the series ninth movie, The Rise of Skywalker. Cinemas are expected to be wall to wall with young fans and all die hards. Many of both dressed as their favorite characters. Cosplay is one of the most pervasive features of modern fandom. When Caitlin Beards is not working at her day job at a visual arts school, she's channeling her favorite heroine, Rae. We reached Caitlin Beard's in Randolph, New Jersey. Hello.

CAITLIN BEARDS: Hi. Good morning. How are you?

JP: Thank you so much for joining me. Caitlin, so what made you decide to start dressing up as Ray?

CAITLIN BEARDS: When I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a little kid and I always seem to identify with characters who were very strong with the force. So when I was little, Luke was always my favorite. I loved Anakin and Obi Wan Kenobi, all of them. But they were always guys. There weren't any females. And finally, when we got to episode seven and that moment, that pinnacle moment, when Ray reaches out her hand and grabs a light saber from Kylo, all of a sudden I was like: There. I finally have a character who I felt a very strong connection with. She's just fantastic. And I couldn't.

JP: And for people who don't know the new movies, can you tell me who Ray is exactly?

CAITLIN BEARDS: Ray is a scavenger from the desert planet of Jakku. And basically she was left on this desert planet basically to fend for herself. And after a long and arduous journey, she discovered that she has a very deep connection to the force and began an even more epic adventure throughout the galaxy to try and bring balance once more to the light side and the dark side.

JP: And tell me a little bit more about what you like about her character.

CAITLIN BEARDS: She is strong and so focused on her goals. She never had to rely on anyone to try and survive. She is the lone survivor out on her own, which was so wonderful. But to see her growth through the other through the films has just been one of these things were like, well, you can be strong on your own. You still can have that backup of people who are willing to support you. And I think that's why I she just wrong was struck with me as a character because I'm the same way. I love to try and focus and do things on my own, but I know that I have a great support system in my friends. And that's why I feel that she and I connect on a very deep level.

JP: Okay, so tell me, when you cosplay her, what's involved in that? Tell me what it's like.

CAITLIN BEARDS: So cosplaying as Rae takes roughly around maybe an hour to get fully from head to toe into kit. That includes doing her crazy three buns little hairdo. And usually I have my lightsaber and it depends on which version I'm doing of her. I have three different versions of Rae currently, but constantly ask her especially doing are like I'm a part of the Rebel Legion and Saber Guild, which are two charity organizations that help raise money through star Wars costuming. And doing that during troops is just being fully in character and helping kids see that Star Wars can be wherever they want it to be. And we are there to just be happy and be fully in character. And I will go full ham in being in character if it means I get to see kids smile and be happy. So it seems like it's a lot of work to get into costume, but it's completely worth it when you get to see a little kid get really excited.

JP: Tell me more about that. What are some of your most memorable experiences playing, Rae?

CAITLIN BEARDS: My most memorable experience as Rae was definitely my very first troop with the Rebel Legion. It was at the New York Yankees game. And I had this family with two little girls come running up to us to get photos. We did a little photo ops throughout the stadium. And it was me and a kilo ran and we were standing there taking photos. And the little girls were so excited. And as they're getting ready to leave, the younger of the two comes over and she tugs on like my little wrap dress. She's like: Rae, Rae! And she like motions for me to sit down so I can talk to her. And she's like, Rae, I just wanted to let you know that you're my hero. And then she runs off with her family. And it took me a second. I was like, okay, whew, don't break character. It's cool, okay. So that was definitely like the highlight of me ever being dressed as Rae.

JP: What about young boys? Did they how did they feel?

CAITLIN BEARDS: Young boys are just as enthusiastic to see Rae because it's a character that they see in the films who is strong, who is a Jedi, which -- anybody with a light saber to kids is phenomenal. But they love seeing, Rey no matter -- like it blows their minds. They get really excited because I went to see the rise of Skywalker last night and I went dressed as Rae. And I had little boys and girls getting really excited to see Rae at the theater. And they were waving and saying hi. And there's like new like it's hard to put into words really. Like they really just embraced Rae as a character. It doesn't ... her gender, anything like that doesn't matter what it is, is that they see this character who's strong and they still love them.

JP: That's wonderful to hear. I also am speaking of gender as sort of a sidebar. I'm so buoyed by the fact that this generation has so many strong female heroines to look up too.

CAITLIN BEARDS: It's amazing,.

JP: Rae of course, but also Katniss from The Hunger Games, Hermione from Harry Potter it is wonderful to see.

CAITLIN BEARDS: Oh, it is a great time to be a girl in nerd fandom. I think it's the best way to say it. It's a great time to be a girl with nerds, especially I love Katniss. I also cosplayed her. I love Harry Potter. It's just been over the moon with everything. And it's so great. It's so wonderful.

JP: I gather you mentioned you've already been to see the new film. So without giving anything away, I'm going to see it in a couple of days. Did it live up to your expectations?

CAITLIN BEARDS: It was a great way to end 42 years of a franchise. They tied up loose ends. They did their homework on what needed to kind of be resolved at the very end. And if you love Star Wars for what it is, which is a great space adventure, you're going to enjoy it.

JP: Okay. And what will you do now? Now that this franchise is over, will you continue to cosplay, Rae?

CAITLIN BEARDS: I do have every intention of continuing to cosplay Rae. There are also tons of other strong females in the Star Wars universe that I definitely want to continue to cosplay as well. I mean, we've got the Mandalorian that's on Disney plus, which is amazing if you haven't seen it -- strongly recommend it; fantastic show. But I know I have Ahsoka Tano from Rebels. I've got Sabine Wren, the Star Wars Universe films maybe over, but there's still plenty of Star Wars to come, which is just going to be even more exciting. If The Mandalorian is any indication of what they have in store for Star Wars, I'm very excited.

JP: Okay, Caitlin, thank you so much for this conversation.

CAITLIN BEARDS: Thank you so much for having me on. It was a real pleasure.

JP: Caitlin Beards is a Star Wars fan who regularly dresses up as one of the newer characters, Rae, as part of the Star Wars fan events in New York City. We reached her in Randolph, New Jersey. Kim Jones loves sharing her love for Star Wars with her son, Theo Risdale. They even gave a Christmas tradition, a Star Wars makeover. The CBC is Christine Rankin visited them at their home in Dundas, Ontario.

SOUNDCLIP

THEO: We're looking at the Death Star from Star Wars Tie fighters and X rings on the top. Then the Millennium Falcon and Star destroyers on the bottom.

CHRISTINE: What are the Tie fighters made of Theo?

THEO: They're made of pretzels, marshmallows and black licorice.

KIM: We spent some late nights planning how we are possibly going to build a death star after Theo said that, that was the thing that he wanted to make out of gingerbread this year. So you see a hemisphere of gingerbread with gray icing on it. It has skewers poking out of it so that there can be about 30 different ships having a battle above the Death Star.

KIM: What did we make the X wings out of?

THEO: [Unintelligible]. I'm probably going to eat it tomorrow, but I don't know.

KIM: I still have the LP that has the soundtrack of Star Wars and has the bar scene music, which was absolutely my favorite at the time. I thought the bar scene was absolutely the best. Which is probably not appropriate for a seven year old, but, you know, it was the 70s. I've had a love of Star Wars, Theo, for all my life.

THEO: It's a cliffhanger. Every movie. Once you watch the first you've gotta watch every single other one.

KIM: It's actually really fun having it be something our family can share and we can build Star Wars Lego together and have a fun time with that and make Star Wars gingerbread together.

JP: I am loving hearing from all these fans today. Theo and Christine's passion speaks to the legacy of Star Wars and its mythology. To find out why it became in remains such a cultural phenomenon. We've reached two fans who brought their hobby to work. Rebecca Harrison is a lecturer in film and television studies at the University of Glasgow. We reached her in Glasgow. David Christopher is an instructor at the Department of Art History and Visual Studies at the University of Victoria, and he also teaches at the University of the Fraser Valley. He joins us from Victoria. Hello to you both.

DAVID CHRISTOPHER: Good morning.

REBECCA HARRISON: Hello.

JP: Rebecca. Here is and I'll start with you. What do you think this film means for fans?

REBECCA HARRISON: I think one of the incredible things about Star Wars is because of the longevity of the franchise and the way that fans are able to remediate it and kind of remake over and over again through different generations, it may, it can mean so many different things to so many people.

JP: And David Christopher. Tell me, how did you first discover Star Wars?

DAVID CHRISTOPHER: I was seven years old in 1977. So as a young boy growing up in Ottawa, Ontario, actually, I was the demographic that ended up being exactly what the film was aimed at. You know, contrary to what Lucas claims in his perpetual revisions of the narrative surrounding the construction of of Star Wars throughout its generations, I think that the child audience was a coincidence. I think it was incidental. I don't think he intended it the way that he claims in hindsight that he did. But certainly it worked that way and it hit all the right marks. And so I was in a wood paneled station wagon of my best friend's parents at the drive in. And so it's a perfectly romantic alignment with the type of narrative that I think Lucas would appreciate.

JP: Tell me how big a deal is this film series in your life now?

DAVID CHRISTOPHER: It's pretty definitive. You know, I mean, I got married in an a Star Wars wedding at my wife's behest. My all of my seven children were involved in that as different characters throughout their ages. And, you know, as I moved into scholarship that was concerned with cinema, most cinema scholars, I think now are really interested in more avant garde films, the things that are a little bit more radical in their ideological underpinnings. And that leaves the popular culture, which I think is really doing the most work in culture, open for analysis. And not to say that there hasn't been plenty. There has been plenty. But so everything from my Star Wars oriented den to the course that I teach at U-Vic, Star Wars is certainly a part of my life.

JP: And I want to get to a little bit more of that with you in a moment. And Rebecca Harrison, can you tell me what it was that appealed to you when you first encountered the films?

REBECCA HARRISON: Yes. So I was about three or four years old. And I think it was only the end that I saw of Return of the Jedi. And I just remember being totally transfixed by a woman on a speeder bike racing through a forest with blaster pistols. And then I mean, I feel like I would probably set myself up for a backlash here, but I'm not going to lie. I was, you know, very young. The teddy bears, the Ewoks were kind of quite big appeal for me as well. And I think seeing a woman on screen in that role, seeing a kind of a princess in a slightly more alternative kind of style of representation was really important for me. And I've loved the films ever since.

JP: I love the Ewoks too, so much. David Christopher, you mentioned you created a course on Star Wars. What have your students been saying about how well the films connect with their generation?

DAVID CHRISTOPHER: You know, some of the most interesting insights. I didn't know how this was going to fly with students. I know a lot of them originally took the course thinking, oh, this will be, you know, a lot of pop culture fun. And I had a serious attrition to attendance after both the third class when they all realized, oh, this is going to be, you know, theoretically informed from a number of different cultural studies perspectives. And I've just had some really, really interesting contributions. I had one particularly with the new series. Much of the reading they did was the old series or the prequels. And I had one student who talked about Ray as a new paradigm of a female heroine, outside of the Oedipal narrative of Luke looking for his father, you've got that very mirror stage image in Rian Johnson's Star Wars installation, where it turns out the parental guidance she's looking for ends up being her own; her individuality, herself. And it's, you know, and so there was a really interesting analysis of that. And I had another student who explored the reasons that the Disney films have not connected, contrary to some of the opinions we've heard in in the soundbites we've listened to so far. The reason that at least with the original fan base and with the young adult fan base as opposed to the children fan base, why they haven't landed. And the argument really was that simply that the characters are not, for some reason, as compelling as the original ones. And I think that we're beginning to see in the media some of the perspectives on that.

JP: Rebecca Harris and John, to jump in here, what do you make of that?

REBECCA HARRISON: Well, I mean, I've been doing a lot of research on Star Wars, and I have to kind of disagree slightly with one of David's earlier points about the films, not originally being for children. I've been through the archives. I've looked at the kind of market research that was done for the original trilogy films all the way back in 1977 before it came out and kids were always featured really, really heavily in the marketing for these films. There were always a primary audience, but so were women. So a lot of the kind of backlash perhaps among a particular subset of Star Wars fans in the Disney era who have been quite upset about women's representation, people of color, women of color, having an increased role. Actually, those people have been there from the beginning as fans and have always existed within the kind of broader Star Wars universe, even if they haven't had particularly great representation on screen.

JP: Interesting. Have things been getting better when it comes to representation, gender and diversity?

REBECCA HARRISON: I mean, yes and no. I mean, it's not a -- I mean, we like to think of these things as moving in a straight line and thinking: Oh, well the past must have been worst. And now things must be progressive and better. So I about a year ago, I worked out the amount of screen time that all of the women characters and all of the women of color characters in the franchise get per film. I mean, this is based on when they're on screen talking or doing something kind of really active. And I actually found that the prequel films, so the films that came out in the 90s, in the 2000s are on the whole worse than the films that came out for women's representation in the 1970sand the 1980s.

JP: Interesting. But are they better than the ones that we're seeing now?

REBECCA HARRISON: I mean, that's difficult. They kind of move up and down. So, for example, The Last Jedi which was the Ryan Johnson film that came out in 2017, that gave 43 percent of screen time to its women characters. That's the best one of the franchise. But we have to be a bit careful when we say that, because even though that's 43 percent of all the time for women, women of color actually only get 14.3 percent of all of the time for women. So, I mean, these films are still privileging whiteness in a lot of different ways and Solo, which actually came out in 2018, that only gave about 23 percent of screen time. So, yes, it's quite a complicated picture.

JP: Right. Still work to do there. David Harrison, I want to ask you, how do you think different movies have responded and reflected what was happening in the world at the time they were made? David Christopher, I apologize.

DAVID CHRISTOPHER: You know, I think that it's easy for scholars to go down the allegorical rabbit hole. And for some reason it's considered a bit of a dreaded literary criticism pathway to follow. But I disagree. I think that there's lots of interesting ways of looking at it. Certainly a lot of the early literature about the original trilogy had to do with the way that it spoke to a cultural need, especially the United States. You know, there's lots of talk about it coming out of the Watergate scandal, coming out of the divisive politics that arose due to Vietnam. And in a culture that had previously enjoyed perhaps a little bit more of a consensus, at least in terms of hegemony, in terms of the dominant culture that was being presented to us in the media. And this movie spoke to a whole range of feel good, positive. Not only did we have Leia, as a female character becoming something that I think young women for the first time could really sink their teeth into, in terms of science fiction, a really strong independent character who is, in some ways in the first film, reduced to a damsel in distress, but still remains quite strong, at least substantially compared to the unfortunate character arc for Padme Amidala in the prequel trilogy. And when you look at the representations in the film, I hesitate to suggest that they're really progressive in any way. You certainly have the ghettoized aliens in the cantina. And even notwithstanding the rebel alliance, the good guys is more replete with a diverse population than The Empire. But, you know, just on its simplest level, the empire is all British accents and all very Nazi with a bit of a Soviet inflection to their representations. And the good guys are all sort of down home American farm boys or technicians. And I think it's accurate, some of the theories that I've read about how it really spoke to a need in American culture. And then you've got the prequel trilogy is there's this really amazing allegorical moment in the third film where the American populace probably experiencing a bit of anxiety about the Gulf wars. And you've got headlines, you literally have headlines in the American media vilifying George W. Bush, saying, you know, we were deceived by a lie. And that's verbatim the line that we get from Obi Wan Kenobi, the duped soldiers who were sent into battle thinking they were doing well, only to learn that they had been trained by their leader. He actually says right to Anakin's partner Padme in terms of what happened to him becoming Darth Vader. He says Anakin was deceived by a lie. We all were referring to the emperor. And so you've got allegory happening on a narrative level. You've got more symptomatic, how is it speaking to the needs of culture over time? And I think that the prequel trilogies didn't do it as strongly as the original trilogy. And maybe, maybe not with Disney as well.

JP: Rebecca, would you agree with that? Have the prequel trilogy is not done as good a job as the original?

REBECCA HARRISON: I mean, I think that there's a lot at stake in answering that question. And I think we have to be really careful about thinking of our own kind of generational responses to these films. Certainly when I'm teaching, I get lots and lots of students who are so heavily invested in the prequel films because that was their entry point into the Star Wars universe. They were seven or eight years old, and the Phantom Menace was what propelled them into this kind of really remarkable, incredible galaxy and all of these characters. And they read these films in quite different ways. And I get lots of student work that does really interesting thinking about toxic masculinity and Anakin's character and things like that. So I don't think it's so much that they don't do as good a. Job as that we all just have a different way of seeing them.

JP: Great. Thank you so much. I apologize. We've run out of time, David. Christopher, Rebecca Harrison, thank you. Rebecca Harrison is a lecturer in film and television studies at the University of Glasgow. We reached her in Glasgow. David Christopher is an instructor at the Department of Art History and Visual Studies at the University of Victoria. He also teaches at the University of Fraser Valley. He joins us from Victoria. You're listening to The Current. I'm Jayme Poisson.

Red deer trees

Guests: Joanna Young, Donald Bruckner

JP: I'm Jayme Poisson, and you're listening to The Current. If you celebrate Christmas, you've probably put your tree up by now. If you're Vince Jackman and Tom Kereluk, you put up dozens and dozens of trees. The couple who live in Red Deer, Alberta, have 120 Christmas trees in their suburban home. That's right. All of them are inside. Their collection has gained so much notoriety, they now offer tours in exchange for a donation to the local SPCA. CBC producer Jennifer Keene dropped by for a tour.

SOUNDCLIP

VINCE: We just get a group together first and we'll go quickly through the house and then you guys can go in any room, take pictures, as many pictures as you want. We have a tree over here. Silver screen goddesses that we have in America, Maryland.

TOM: Hi, I'm Tom Kereluk and you're in my kitchen. Visually, we could see about one, two, three... Probably about 10 trees within our midst tier. Back in 1994, when I moved to Red Deer, I lived in a basement suite and decorated my refrigerator with lights. That's how much Christmassy I was. Vince loves Christmas. And over the years, I could see why he loves Christmas. It brings joy to everyone. Everyone smiles. Everyone loves Christmas trees. It just makes you feel good. It's snowballed probably in around 2005, 2006, because we kept on gaining about three trees a year. And then in those last four years, I think it's about eight trees a year, 10 trees a year. It's snowball. We start or Vince starts early in October. I tell him you could decorate and put up all the trees in the bedrooms, the other living room, do not put it in front of the large windows because we don't want people to think something's not right. We have trees in one living room all the way sizes from 15 foot to eight foot to seven foot. We have a solarium that has four trees in it, four full size trees in it. The hallways have two trees. Going up the stairs have trees. Going down the stairs have two trees. Do we have a problem? Maybe it's an addiction.

[Vince guiding visitors in background]

TOM: Granma went into old age home and she had a small little tree there that she pulled out each year. And it has small little ornaments, little gnomes on it. And when she passed away, we said, we'll take it. It kind of reminds you of grandma. She's here every year now.

JENNIFER: There is that sentimental side of decorating trees.

TOM: Oh, yes. It's almost like a memory book or a photo album. I mean, I have ornaments that friends have given over the years. And you pull it out instead of showing the ornament each year you pull it out and put it on a tree and it kind of reminds you, oh, this ornament that, you know, that close friend gave. Or these are things that we picked up on our travels. Stock? I don't know. I don't think we'll stock. I know I have a problem and this is a way that I could hide my hoarding tendencies and yet still do some good. If we could just do this and bring smiles to other people's faces, you know, to make people feel good in the season, then we all win.

[Music]

JP: Okay, thanks. You're a CBC Calgary producer, Jennifer Keene for that Christmas tree tour. That was a lot of fun.

Why hunt when you can eat roadkill? Salvaged meat better than veganism for animal welfare, say advocates

Guest: Joanna Young, Donald Bruckner

JP: Now from Christmas trees to Christmas meals, but these meals aren't for the faint of heart. Who has cooked a wild turkey you ran over? How about squish, squirrel or a moose? You quartered on the side of the highway. The Current's guest host, David Common, explored the ethics of eating roadkill. Here again is that conversation from October, starting with some advice from a British cooking show.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: There are millions of squirrels, rabbits, pigeons, deer killed every year. And a lot of them are landfills. And it doesn't have to be the case. It's not very nice, but meat production isn't, but at least there's no further ethical problem here. This is a rather fat old squirrel. A lot of meat in it, but the older they are, the tougher they get. So they do have to be marinated. Yep. You know meat comes from animals, which have heads, they have tails.

VOICE 2: And that is indeed why we are showing this because meat does come from animals and yet many of us do seem to forget that. Is there anything you wouldn't eat?

VOICE 1: Well, for roadkill, I'll take just about anything except cats and dogs.

VOICE 2: I better try this.

VOICE 1: What do you reckon?

VOICE 2: I had a gag prepared. I was going to say it tastes like chicken because everything does, but it doesn't. It's perfectly edible.

DC: Perfectly edible. Well, that might be debatable for some. Just a warning here. We are talking about eating roadkill, if you happen to find you know that unpalatable. You're listening to a British environmentalist, George Monbiot, who certainly does not have a problem with it. Neither do legislators in California. They recently passed a law allowing drivers to collect roadkill, but only in certain areas and a limited number of species. It's also legal in some Canadian provinces and now more than 20 U.S. states, including Alaska. That's something Joanna Young discovered when she moved to Fairbanks from suburban Toronto almost 10 years ago. Now, when Joanna arrived, she was a vegan. Not so much anymore. Hello. Joanna Young.

JOANNA YOUNG: Hi. Thanks for having me.

DC: Not at all. So you went from being a vegan to not just eating meat, but eating roadkill.

JOANNA YOUNG: I sure did. It was a slow process though. I wouldn't say it happened all at once. I was speaking for about a year after I made it to Alaska and slowly started realizing that there were a lot of people eating moose and salmon at a lot of the different potlucks and barbecues I was going to. And so slowly I started to dabble myself and went out fishing for the first time and got my own salmon and a couple of years after that, I also started to eat roadkill moose.

DC: OK, so I feel like there's a dot, dot, dot there. There's a few things we've left on the side because there will be some people who will be listening and saying gross. How do you counter that?

JOANNA YOUNG: I completely understand that mentality. I think that mentality is probably how I would have felt about a decade ago as well. There is definitely a stigma surrounding the idea of salvaging meat from the side of a road. But I think things in Alaska are a little bit different. We have a long standing program up there where you can get on a list with the Alaska State Troopers. And when a moose is hit by a car, which is always super unfortunate, but which, of course, happens every single day up there, you can be on that list and the state troopers will give you a call when it's your turn. And if you're available, you can go ahead and go down and salvage whatever meat can be salvaged from the animal.

DC: You must to have to do it pretty quickly.

JOANNA YOUNG: You do. And it certainly depends on the season. And in winter, you have a little bit more time because the temperatures are cooler, but you really have to be on it. You have to be ready to go out. We got a call at 11:30 at night once and had to mobilize and we were out at the side of the road by maybe about 1:00 in the morning because the meat can start to spoil if it takes you too long to get there.

DC: Okay. So walk me through that. Let's think about the first time you were called out. It was a moose. What do you do?

JOANNA YOUNG: Well, it's a good question. It was my first time doing any kind of butchering of an animal or processing of an animal. You know, at all. I've never done any farming before like that.

DC: And you're also trying not to get hit by other cars at the same time.

JOANNA YOUNG: That's true. I mean, it was a highway and it was the middle of the night. So not too much traffic, but we did pull the pull the carcase to a safe spot. And I was with three friends and my partner and one of us had done it before. He knew exactly what he was doing. And so he really was able to show us the ropes and tell us how to do it. And between the four of us in an hour, we had the whole animal quartered and loaded up in our car ready to drive home.

DC: And was this an adult moose?

JOANNA YOUNG: It was about a year old. So it was on the smaller side.

DC: Still a lot of meat.

JOANNA YOUNG: A lot of meat. One of the legs was pretty badly damaged, which you might expect from a big accident like that. So we weren't able to use that part of the animal, but out of the rest of it, we got about 140 pounds of meat to divide between four people.

DC: That is a lot.

JOANNA YOUNG: That's on the small side.

DC: Yeah and popping that into the freezer. So being in Alaska, is this a thing that only a small number of people know about and do, or is it fairly accepted? If I went and suggested that I eat roadkill, would people bat an eye?

JOANNA YOUNG: I don't think anyone would bat an eye if they'd been there for any period of time. I think newcomers definitely take a little bit of time to get used to the idea that makes sense to me because again, there's a stigma and there's a vision of. Yeah. Picking up the, you know, a squirrel that's at the side of the road and sweltering heat. And that's just not what this looks like at all. What this looks like is a very large animal that's unfortunately lost its life and that has hundreds, potentially hundreds of pounds of good meat, organic free range meat. And that's in perfectly good shape. And if you know what you're doing and you get out there quickly enough with people who know how to process an animal that is a lot of meat that is not being purchased at a factory farm.

DC: And then there's arguments. And walk me through that argument, because not only is it not food that's going to waste, but it is where the food is coming from.

JOANNA YOUNG: Exactly. A lot of people in Alaska go out hunting routinely. And I'm not as much a part of that community, although I have lots of friends who are. And I kind of think of this as one way that we can even eliminate one active hunt instead of having to go out and hunt an animal that's out in the wild. we can pick one up from the side of the road that's for the most part in pretty good shape.

DC: If your freezers are already full, why do you need to fill it some more?

JOANNA YOUNG: Well, that's a good question. Yeah and right now, I am not on the list to go and salvage a roadkill because our freezer is perfectly full. So we have all we need.

DC: Do you ever worry about foodborne illness? I mean, you talk about factory farmed food or food that's coming out of the industrialized meat system. The one thing is that that is at least it's supposed to be subject to food inspectors and stringent health guidelines. But you wouldn't have that with something that's been hit by a car and salvaged off the side of the road.

JOANNA YOUNG: I don't worry about it as much. And in a way, I think I would be a little bit more worried about eating chicken that I know comes from a factory farm, because we've all heard of lots of recalls and issues of salmonella and things like that. But when it comes to getting loose from the roadkill salvage program, there are a couple of things to watch out for in the meat. There is some small growths in the meat that are pretty easy to identify that you can see with your own eyes. You can tell when meat is damaged, if it has too much blood in it, or if maybe it has some fur or some hair on it from the moose, that stuff that you don't want to keep. And so we're really diligent when we get home about how we process it and only keep the parts that look the very best.

DC: I want to play a clip for you. Baylen Linnekin is a lawyer and also the author of Biting the Hand that Feed Us: How Fewer, Smarter Laws Would Make Our Food System More Sustainable.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's legal at this point and about a little more, I guess now than half of the U.S. states, which means that obviously people aren't bragging about their illicit practices. So in half the states of this country, you know, it's sort of on the down low. It's an uncommon practice let's say. Most people don't do it, but even the people who are doing it they're making a small dent in the you kno, the carcases that you see on the roadside. But they're making a big impact because that makes it less likely that other predators will come onto the highway and be hurt or killed themselves. They're promoting a more sustainable way of living, and it's also free food. I think that the overarching and overriding lesson here is that more choice is better and the more choices people are allowed to have, the more sort of interesting niche food markets and food choices will pop up and road kill is just one of those.

DC: Joanna Young, does that resonate with you?

JOANNA YOUNG: It does. I agree with a lot of what he's just said. I think one of the one of the things I think about is people pay thousands of dollars to come up and do a guided hand in Alaska's wilds to get themselves a moose and perhaps to bring the meat back home with them. And for me, this is a program that I get to participate in for free. And I'm a student. It saves me a lot of money. And again, it's really high quality, wild game meat that has been organic and free range and that has had a really wonderful life up until the very last moments.

DC: What's your favourite thing to make with moose?

JOANNA YOUNG: Oh, I'm a big fan of doing a moose chilli in the slow cooker.

DC: Yeah, I've had that before, particularly in western Canada.

JOANNA YOUNG: Yeah, exactly.

DC: Well, Joanna Young, thank you very much for of all things, talking to us about eating roadkill.

JOANNA YOUNG: You bet. It's definitely not what I thought I would be on the radio for.

DC: No doubt. Talk to you later.

JOANNA YOUNG: Thanks very much. Bye bye.

DC: Join a young is a geoscientist in Fairbanks, Alaska. OK. What about the ethics of all of this? Donald Bruckner is an associate professor of philosophy at Penn State University. We've reached him in New Kensington, Pennsylvania. Hello. How are you?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I'm very well. Thank you for your interest.

DC: And how were you after listening to Joanna talk about moose meat recipes and all sorts of goodness about eating roadkill.

DONALD BRUCKNER: I think that she hit lots and lots of nails on the head.

DC: Okay, give me some of them. What are the because you're looking particularly at the ethical complexities around this.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes, that's correct. So my interest in roadkill comes from sort of two places. One is I'm like Joanna, I collect and consume roadkill here in western Pennsylvania. We have a lot of road kill deer. But philosophically, I'm interested in a very common argument that's given in favour of the obligatoryness of vegetarianism. And that argument has to do with the unnecessary harm associated with diet that includes factory farmed animals. It's very harmful to the factory farm animals. It's very harmful to the environment due to the farming practices. And so the usual arguments says it's wrong to participate or support a practice that causes unnecessary harm. So the conclusion that the vegan draws from that is that we're obligated to have a vegan diet. However, there is some harm associated with the vegan diet. There are still environmental harms associated with vegetable farming. There's still harms to animals who are caught in harvesting machinery or ploughs. So a vegan diet does not completely harm free. A diet that includes roadkill as instead of some vegan staples would have a lower harm footprint. So by the vegans own logic, it would be morally better to have a diet, including some roadkill.

DC: More ethical to eat roadkill compared to a plant-based diet.

DONALD BRUCKNER: On the vegans own standards, on that argument, yes.

DC: Well, now that's curious. I think a lot of our reaction to this idea of people who may be listening right now, some people may be saying this is totally logical. The meat otherwise would've gone to waste. Why not? And I think other people will have a more basic reaction of just ugh.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes.

DC: How do you think disgust plays into how we see this?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Well, again, I'm not committed to the obligatoryness of a diet, including road kill, but I think the vegan is. But I think that this line of argument has a response. And the response is that sometimes we're morally obligated to do things that are gross. If you were hurt and you were haemorrhaging badly, it might be gross for a bystander to have to help stop your bleeding. But there might be a moral obligation to do that. It's morally obligatory for parents to change baby's diapers. That's pretty gross. But sometimes we've got to get over the gross and get on with our moral obligations.

DC: There was a discussion that cropped up a couple of years ago in Newfoundland and Labrador about whether that province should re-open a program that allowed charities to salvage roadkill and use it to feed the needy. We checked in with our provincial government and it said emphatically that that had been considered but is not going to happen. That there is not going to be a program to salvage roadkill and use it to feed the needy. What do you think of the ethics of a decision like that?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I think that that's a shame because as Joanne articulated, this is meat that would otherwise be left to waste. And one rejoinder that I get from vegans to whom I present this argument is that, well, maybe this harm based argument is not the best argument, but there's an argument based on respect. We shouldn't eat factory farmed animals because doing that is disrespectful and so we should be vegans instead. My rejoinder to that rejoinder is that it seems to me quite disrespectful to let a perfectly good, nutritious animal whose life has just ended go to waste on the side of the road or in Pennsylvania. What happens is they're collected and put in landfills. That seems to be disrespectful. What would you think of a dog owner whose dog was hit in the middle of the road and who just let the dogs sit there and rot in the road? That would be disrespectful. And I think it's disrespectful to a wild animal to let it go to waste like that. Yes.

DC: Let me just step away from the ethical and the broader discussion here, and because you have said that you salvage and serve roadkill. Is it mostly deer?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes. Mostly deer. In Pennsylvania, it's permitted to pick up deer and wild turkeys.

DC: Have you ever fed that to guests?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I have on occasion.

DC: Have you told them?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Sure.

DC: In advance?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Sure.

DC: How'd they respond? Hold on. You said sure. Is it yes?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes. Yes, we have had guests to whom we've fed roadkill, and they're aware of it. Usually they're people who know us and who are aware of my practices are not are not grossed out. They understand the reasons in favour of it. They are willing to try.

DC: Look, it's fascinating and it's not the first time that I've heard about this, because I think even in places where it is not legal, this practice has happened.

DONALD BRUCKNER: I find that easy to believe. With your prior guest she was talking about sort of a social stigma attached. Sometimes collecting and consuming roadkill is seen as an activity, you know, worthy of only the lower classes of society. That's helplessly a very classist attitude and it's a shame that it's seen that way. But there is a barrier toward social acceptance. So I don't, you know, in my social circle, like you just don't go advertising oh, by the way, I saw a road kill on the way to work, I think I might pick it up on the way home.

DC: Yeah, that probably would be an awkward conversation.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Exactly.

DC: Well, Donald Bruckner, thanks very much for your thoughts on this.

DONALD BRUCKNER: My pleasure. Thank you for your interest.

DC: Not at all. Donald Bruckner is an associate professor of philosophy at Penn State University. And we reached him in New Kensington, Pennsylvania. In Canada, different provinces have different rules for picking up road kill. Some, including B.C., the Yukon and Ontario, do allow it if you have a permit, but you can only consume it yourself. You can't sell it. Other provinces, including Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador, do not allow it at all. And before anyone heads out to scour the highways and byways for dead animals. Lawrence Goodridge has a few words of caution. He's the Leung Family Professor of food safety at the University of Guelph. He is not totally sold on the idea of eating roadkill.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: From a food safety standpoint, it's certainly concerning for several reasons. First of all, when food animals are harvested for food that's done in a hygienic environment and in harvesting or slaughter facility. Obviously, if an animal dies on the road, that environment cannot be controlled. And so there's all kinds of considerations that now arise, including things like the road itself. What's on that road? There are other chemicals on the road. You know, vehicles drive by. There could be things like oil or gasoline or other fluids. There could be physical contaminants like pieces of metal or glass, again, from the vehicle that's embedded into that animal. Another concern is how the animal was killed. Again in a harvest process, the animal is harvested in such a way that the hyde does not come into contact with the meat because on the hyde there could be all kinds of contaminants. You know, a great example of this is cattle, which are usually caked with manure and that manure is essentially the components of the gas intestinal tract and can have food borne pathogens like E. coli and salmonella. So during harvest of cattle, care is taken to make sure that the hyde doesn't come into contact with the meat. If an animal like a deer is hit by a car, there's, you know, there's no way that that can be assured in a similar manner that caused the gastrointestinal tract itself needs to be removed without it breaking, so that the contents of that, which again, would contain foodborne passes do not spill into the meat. How long was the animal dead before it was harvested? If it's a warm day, that certainly could lead to bacterial growth on the meat. While other wild animals may have visited the carcase and contaminated it and because of the time delay between whoever the sheriff deputies or whoever or the wildlife officials finding the carcase and notifying people, you still have the concern of the temperature abuse of that animal. And that's a concern because foodborne pathogens grow at room temperature. And that's why we have to store food in the fridge. One other thing we haven't discussed is the fact that the animal could be diseased. So again, during harvest in a meat plant, the carcases are always inspected to ensure that they don't have some kind of disease and lesions or tumours or things of that sort. And wild animals could be very diseased. Now, hunters may have experience to know that, but again, those who don't generally hunt may not have that experience. So I still think there's a risk even for those who and I do agree with you that most people probably won't do this, but for those who may perhaps be drawn to this because of their interest in reducing food waste and who may not have experience handling dead animals could still present a risk to themselves and their families.

JP: That's our program for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for q. Tom Power talks to Canadian Luke Kirby about his Emmy-winning turn as comedy icon Lenny Bruce on "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." You could also hear it on the new, free CBC Listen app. CBC Listen is the place to discover the very best in Canadian audio, from CBC Radio, CBC Podcasts, and CBC Music. And here's a little something we discovered on Twitter yesterday: Lin Manuel-Miranda of Hamilton fame had a cameo and wrote some music for the Rise of Skywalker movie. It's not the first time the Broadway powerhouse has popped up in the Star Wars universe. He co-wrote two songs with director JJ Abrams for The Force Awakens. We're going to leave you today with one of those. This is Jabba Flow. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks for listening to The Current.

Friday December 20, 2019 Full Transcript

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