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The Current Transcript for December 17, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

So the first thing you might want to say to my African-American brothers and sisters is that the vaccine that you're going to be taking was developed by an African-American woman.

MATT GALLOWAY: The numbers for covid in the United States are bad. More than 200000 new cases daily and more than 1600 people dead yesterday alone. And yet, because of historical health care discrimination, some of the communities hardest hit are the most sceptical of that new vaccine. In 30 minutes, the scale of the crisis south of the border and the work being done to win the trust of black Americans. Also this morning, it has been a very hard year for Nova Scotia and this week it got worse.

SOUNDCLIP

Oh, it's a hard hit. I mean, we are, we are community, the fishermen. And, you know, it's sad to to see this.

MG: In an hour how that province is holding up through yet another tragedy. And later, does it feel like you're cooking all the time? When the kids ask what's for dinner, you just draw a blank stare. Nine months into this thing, cooking fatigue is real. The celebrity chef and cookbook author Yotam Ottolenghi has some answers coming up. We begin, though, out of the kitchen and on the front lines in the delivery room on the edge of burnout. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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'It's quite demoralizing': Midwives feeling overworked, undervalued in pandemic

Guests: Remi Ejiwunmi, Lehe Spiegelman

MG: A lot of us are feeling pretty burnt out as 20-20 comes to an end, but for those working in health care, this year has been like sprinting a marathon every day. For midwives in particular, demand for their services has gone up since March. But that's meant working long hours, often for less pay than other health care workers. A survey from the Midwives Association of B.C. found that more than three quarters of respondents were feeling burnt out. This is a tough job at the best of times, but the pandemic has made it even more challenging. And we tagged along for a day with one midwife to hear how much things have changed.

SOUNDCLIP

My name is Remi Ejiwunmi. I'm a registered midwife. It's Saturday morning. It's eight o'clock and my plan today is to get up with my four year old because I'm going to be out for most of the day doing postpartum visits, which are the house calls that we do for moms and newborns. So I'm hoping to get up and do breakfast and then head out to do my visits.

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REMI: So best laid plans. At nine o'clock this morning while I was having breakfast with my four year old, I got paged by somebody who's in early labour. So I called her back, made a plan to give her some coping mechanisms for the early part of Labour. She's planning a hospital birth. So I'm going to quickly get dressed and start to my postpartum visits so that I will be done before I get paged back.

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REMI: It's eleven thirty. I am almost home from my postpartum visits. I also got paged just as I was about to get close to home with somebody who had a concern about their baby. So I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with that person. Now I get to go home and catch up on my charting. I have a bunch of labs sitting in my inbox, so I'll spend a portion of the afternoon going through those, making sure that everything is OK and following up on any results that are not normal.

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REMI: It's three thirty now and I have just finished dealing with a page from somebody who thinks they have a breast infection. So I spent some time on the phone with them, helping them to work through their treatment options, writing up a prescription, faxing it into the pharmacy and charting everything that I talked about.

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REMI: It's nine thirty to Saturday night. I'm just on my way to assess the client who first paged me this morning at nine o'clock with early labour. And I guess we'll see whether I'm going to be overnight.

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REMI: Ten forty five almost back home. After doing that assessment, we're on the cusp of active Labour gave her some tips to manage and I expect she will be paging me back in the next few hours. So I'm going home to try and put my head down and get at least a couple of hours of rest before I will probably be out for the rest of the night.

[Music].

REMI: Two O four in the morning. And as suspected, the client who I assessed around 10:00 o'clock has paged back, indicating that she would like to go to hospital for admission. And just as I was about to step out the door, I got paged by a second client who is in active labour and planning a number. So I am redirecting myself to the home birth and a colleague of mine who is somebody that the client planning the hospital birth knows will be going to admit her and hopefully will have our baby at home. And then I will leave that birth and go and take over for the person who is in the hospital.

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REMI: It's five forty five in the morning. We completed a lovely home birth. I am now back in the car and driving to the hospital to take over care for the client who first paged me yesterday at nine o'clock in the morning with early labour and I will stay with her until sometime later this morning when I will call for a release midwife so that I can go home and sleep. We're almost done a full 24 hours of being awake.

[Music]

REMI: It's eleven, thirty in the morning on Sunday. I have had a second baby who delivered at ten forty two. I called my relief in and was just getting ready to leave the hospital and she was fully and pushing. So I decided to stay and get to meet this little person who I spent a good chunk of the evening and early morning with. Midwifery is nothing if not unpredictable. So I'm in the change room at the hospital and I'm going to go home and strip down at the back door and go and have a shower and crawl into bed and hopefully sleep for most of the rest of the day.

[Music]

MG: Remi Ejiwunmi is a midwife with midwives of Mississauga. She joins me now and Lihe Spiegelman is the president of the Midwives Association of B.C.. Good morning to you both.

REMI EJIWUNMI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: In that little audio diary, your day started relentless. How has covid changed your job, Remi?

REMI EJIWUNMI: It was relentless, but it's honestly not that unusual of a day in the life of a midwife on call. Our chief of staff at the hospital made this comment this week that covid is pervasive for us as clinicians because it affects us on the clinical level in terms of the clients that we're dealing with. It's changed how we provide care that affects us on the professional level in terms of us having to completely reorganise our way of providing care, our offices. And on a personal level, because when we come home, we're concerned about protecting our families. I have a four year old at home. And so, you know, it's not unusual for me to come home from having been out doing visits or at birth and have to kind of run away from him so that he doesn't give me a hug when I come home, that I can strip down and shower before I get to cuddle him, which is, you know, a real change in terms of just our dynamic.

MG: So what's that like?

REMI EJIWUNMI: I mean, he's starting to understand, because when I come home, my partner Carl will sort of say, you know, make sure that you don't touch mommy before, you know, to get the chance to go down and have a shower. So we have a separate laundry for me and we have a separate shower for me. You know, he doesn't get to interact with me until I've been home for at least 20 minutes because that's just what I have to do to keep him safe.

MG: Lehe does that sound familiar to you, that idea that that the effect of covid is pervasive? As Remi was saying, there are a lot of people who they might experience, you know, this pandemic in one way, but then you can kind of separate that from the rest of your life. But the way that it sounds, the way that she's describing it is it's everywhere.

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: Yeah, absolutely. I think midwives across the country are certainly having that experience of managing covid on every level of our professional and personal lives. And, you know, certainly just listening to you, Remi, about what your day is like, it makes me reflect on some of those early months where we were all really scrambling just to figure out how to manage and how to keep our patients safe and then how to keep our families safe. You know, what's unique to midwifery is that we do traverse these boundaries. So we work between the acute and the community setting. We go between patients homes and hospitals and clinics. And at each stage, it's imperative that, you know, we're protecting our patient population and also protecting ourselves from exposure.

MG: So go back to those early months. What do you remember, Lehe, about the first birth that you attended during this pandemic?

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: The first birth I attended was shortly after the pandemic had been called. My first call was at around two in the morning. You know, I certainly took that moment to take a deep breath and say, OK, this is going to be different. I hopped in my car and headed over to the hospital. And when I got there, I thought, OK, this this is different. I got to figure out how to [unintelligilble] personal protective equipment. And then entering the room and realising I couldn't quite share my encouraging smile with this woman in labour and had to quickly adapt to how to encourage and support this woman in Labour and her family and and really try and normalise what felt like being in a hazmat suit in the middle of a birth.

MG: Have you had difficulties in - you talk about the hazmat suit. I mean, we've heard of the difficulties that others in the health care fields have had in getting personal protective equipment. Has it been straightforward for you, Lihe, or have there been complications there?

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: Yeah, you know, midwives were offered and provided PPE for home delivery only, and it didn't account for PPE in the community when we were doing a home visit. And so many of us were scrambling in those early months to purchase PPE out of pocket and get ourselves ready. I was really just about a month ago that the government started funding PPE for midwives. So this has been a challenge for midwives in B.C.

MG: Remi, what about in Ontario?

REMI EJIWUNMI: You know, because we traverse those three environments. So, you know, the community and our clinics, people's homes and the hospitals, we're sort of always the out of the box example. So there isn't a clear management line of equipment for people who are in all three of those settings. In the hospital there with PPE for the births that happen in the hospital. But when we were in our clinics, some when we were going to people's homes, we also have to source PPE independently. So, there were practises where clients in the community were sewing gowns for midwives because that was the only way that they could access gowns. We were fortunate in my practise because we've been around for a while that we had a stockpile of PPE, but it was a real scramble and there wasn't a clear, you know, chain of access to that equipment.

MATT GALLOWAY: So let me let me just be clear on that. Clients were sewing gowns?

REMI EJIWUNMI: Yeah. Yeah, not in my practise, but there were definitely communities out there where clients were sewing gowns for midwives to be able to wear to go safely into people's homes to provide care.

MG: Which I mean, part of that is you talked about, you know, in some ways being out of the box. But what's your sense as to why that would be left up to midwives to do themselves, to figure out how to how to make sure that they were protected?

REMI EJIWUNMI: I think we're just often an afterthought, to be quite honest. I don't know if it's the same in British Columbia, but we certainly were not included in the group of health-care workers that were seen as front line for dedicated pandemic funding. And so there's sort of this assumption that, you know, we'll get captured somewhere. But as a result, nobody's actually focussing on making sure that, you know, our clientele and therefore our needs are looked after.

MG: What is that you said that the midwives haven't been designated in some ways as frontline workers. We've heard a lot about frontline workers over the course of this pandemic, and those frontline workers have been rightly celebrated and people banging pots and pans at seven o'clock at night. What has it meant to you to not have that designation as a frontline worker, Remi?

REMI EJIWUNMI: So in the early days, in particular, as we were reorganizing our practise, all of the thinking, all of the planning, all of the investment that went into reorganizing our clinic spaces so that it was safe for clients was done basically on our time and and with our resources. And so there wasn't dedicated funding set aside to allow us to plan and reorganize ourselves. And so I think that, you know, whereas other health care workers were provided with resources, recognising that actually reorganising your entire way of providing clinical care requires effort and resources and energy.

MG: Lehe, the other element of this, and I had hinted at this in the introduction, is that frontline workers, many frontline workers received a pay hike, particularly in health care, in the midst of this pandemic. And that has not been extended to midwives. What's your understanding as to why that's the case and what's the effect of that?

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: You know, I have wondered that question myself and and agree, you know, in terms of just midwifery being a little bit of an afterthought, being outside of the box. Certainly, certainly we have been just systematically left out of any pandemic pay in any pandemic supports for doing all of that important planning that Remi is describing. You know, nine months into a pandemic, I would say this level of of being left out of these programs is unacceptable. For my part, I would say it's quite it's quite demoralizing nine months down the road to be working to the extent that midwives are working without this important safety net, knowing that if we do get sick with covid due to exposure at work, that there's pandemic relief so we can take time off work. And certainly that the additional hours, you know, we're seeing midwives in to respond, that they're putting in an extra 10 to 20 hours a week just to manage covid in their practises and in their professional lives. So it's additional hours and additional time in additional risk and liability. And unfortunately, the government hasn't come in to provide that necessary support so that midwives can continue doing this work.

MG: So the survey done from the Midwives Association of B.C. found that more than three quarters of respondents were feeling, as I said in the introduction, burnt out. Remi, what is burnout look like in your world?

REMI EJIWUNMI: I think I mean, I think it can look like a lot of things. I think it it's initially there's burnout while you're coping. So, you know, you feel exhausted. It's hard to recover from long nights awake. And then I think eventually it gets to the point where you have people taking short term lead and then long term leave and then potentially leaving the profession altogether. So I think that we are all deeply committed to the work that we do. But I think when you are overworked and undervalued on top of that, it makes it that much harder to be able to stay on track and commit to that. And it's not that it affects the quality of care that's provided, but I think what you see happening is people just dropping out because they just can't sustain anymore.

MG: Have you ever considered dropping out? I'll use your phrase there.

REMI EJIWUNMI: I'm really fortunate that I haven't. I'm in a really, really well supported practise. But there have been midwives in my practise who have left, and particularly even during the pandemic, we did have somebody who just decided that it wasn't something that she could cope with. And so she left the practise and we supported her to do so because I feel like people need to be where they need to be. But, you know, with more support and more direction and more resources, I wonder if she would have stayed.

MG: Lehe, what's at stake if midwives start leaving the practise again. The survey suggested that one in five midwives in British Columbia are taking steps like active steps to actually leave the profession, so what's at stake if that happens?

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: Well, we're a small profession. There's just over 300 of us working in the province, but we are delivering about a quarter of the babies. So that's going to really hit communities across the province. You know, what we know about midwives in B.C. is that we're far reaching into remote communities. We have indigenous midwives who are supporting indigenous families across the province. And we really need the government to support that important work of providing cultural safety, especially during the pandemic. It's very much less about the actual patient care. And that's what the survey was able to see as well. It's not the patient care that burns us out. It's actually the part of the work that fuels the it's really the lack of the sort of a safety net that we're talking about. You know, midwives, we have no parental leave, no benefits, no retirement savings with this type of infrastructure support that really do keep people in jobs. And we're seeing midwives look around and think, wow, this is a high stress job. It's a great risk and liability to me and my family and even more so during a pandemic. And there just isn't that safety net that can keep us going.

MG: What keeps you in the job then? I mean, there's there's a lot of doors that are in front of you, the way that you've laid that out that you could you could walk out through. But what keeps you in the job?

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: I love my work. It brings me great joy. And it's exhausting for sure. But it's incredibly rewarding work. I mean, certainly when my pager goes off at 2:00 in the morning, I have that moment thinking, OK, here we go. But it's really that's where I get in my car. And I just I feel so excited about providing that level of care and support. And it's the team that keeps me going and showing up at the hospital and having those relationships with the team and just being able to really provide a safe and welcoming place for someone.

MG: What about for you, Remi? I mean, we keep hearing that this is going to be a long winter. It's going to be tough, but babies will be born. And that's I mean, a joyful moment at the best of times, let alone especially now, when we could use a bit of joy. Where are you finding I mean, the light in this?

REMI EJIWUNMI: It's funny, I was listening to you talk about loving the work. And as you were saying, and I have this big smile on my face because it's exactly how I feel. It's interesting. We recognised this month that this is the first group of birthing folks who are giving birth, having had their entire pregnancies during the pandemic. And so I have clients who have never seen my face, which is really bizarre when you think about, you know, that what centres midwifery is that sense of community and connexion. And so it really is about trying to find other ways to have those moments of connexion. You know, every birth is a new and exciting experience. And really, I think the other amazing part of being a midwife is our colleagues, you know, not just our midwifery colleagues, but the nurses and physicians and social workers and all of the rest of the team that help us to provide safe, comprehensive response and high quality care. And that sense of teamwork, those little moments of connexion, are what make it worthwhile.

MG: I'm glad to have had the chance to speak with you both. Take care of yourself and thank you for the work that you are doing in difficult circumstances.

LEHE SPIEGELMAN: Thank you so much for having me.

REMI EJIWUNMI: Thank you very much, Remi.

MG: Remi Ejiwunmi is a midwife with the midwives of Mississauga and Lehe Spiegelman is president of the Midwives Association of B.C. The B.C. Ministry of Health did send us a statement in response to some of the concerns that have been raised. And it reads in part: The ministry, in partnership with the Midwives Association of B.C. has established the Midwifery Advisory Committee through this work of the advisory committee, the ministry will work to address priority issues raised by midwives, including midwives, levels of burnout, financial concerns, intentions to leave the profession, mental health issues and workload challenges. We also requested a statement from the Ontario Ministry of Health, and their statement reads in part, The ministry values the contributions of Ontario's midwives and their efforts to support the health care sector. Response to covid-19. We wish we could provide pandemic pay to every single frontline worker. Unfortunately, there is a limit to the amount of funding provided by the federal government through our shared agreement. And we are not able to expand the pandemic pay programme beyond the over 375 thousand employees already deemed eligible. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

We are in the time frame now that probably for the next 60 to 90 days, we're going to have more deaths per day than we had in 9/11, where we had in Pearl Harbour.

MG: The head of the Centres for Disease Control said that last week.

Now, the United States has climbed well over those numbers. In a moment, America's ongoing struggle to slow covid spread. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

Remembering the dead, and battling vaccine hesitancy in the U.S.

Guests: Karen Nascembeni, Alex Goldstein, Michael Pearson, Dr. Georges Benjamin

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. It's not the vegetables fault that you don't like the taste, it's your fault for not preparing it properly. In 30 minutes, the chef, Yotam Ottolenghi, teaches us how to do broccoli boldly and cauliflower with courage. But first, we head to the United States for covered cases continue to rise.

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MG: This week, while the first Americans were getting vaccinated against covid-19, the country hit another darker milestone, more than 300000 deaths, with many hospitals across that country operating at or near capacity. The situation is expected to only get worse in the coming days. Here's Dr. Eyad Almasri in California, warning of what's to come.

SOUNDCLIP

We have more patients and less people to take care of them. We are certainly trying not to compromise the care, but inadvertently, that is possible. More people will die because the whole health care system is overwhelmed.

Some projections show the United States could reach 500000 deaths by the end of this year. Alex Goldstein wanted to remember the people behind those grim numbers, so he created a face of covid on Twitter. It's a memorial page for those lost to the pandemic. And through that page, that's how he met Karen Nascembeni. Karen and her husband, Steven Richard contracted covid in March. Karen recovered, but Steven died. Alex and Karen are with me now. Good morning to you both.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me on.

MG: Karen, I am so sorry for what you have been through.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: Thank you. Yeah, it's been a tough year, to say the least.

MG: Yeah, you were both diagnosed with covid in March. Just briefly, take me through what happened with you and your husband.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: Sure. I mean, we both gradually got sicker and sicker. I was diagnosed with a sinus infection at a walk in clinic, and then Steven had a telehealth visit and was also diagnosed with a sinus infection. You know, we were so early on that the medical community here really was not - I don't want to say they weren't taking it seriously, but they just didn't have the depth of knowledge to know, you know, to recognise that this is what was really going on with us. So we eventually got sicker and sicker and on St. Patrick's Day entered the hospital. But Steven was gravely ill at that point and I was not far behind him.

MG: And you drove him to the hospital?

KAREN NASCEMBENI: I did, yeah. I said to him, I want to call an ambulance because he was so ill. And he said, I want you to drive me. And I was pretty delirious driving him there because we were both extremely oxygen deprived. So he was taken immediately out of the car. And then I waited for three or four hours until I could be taken. And there was a staging area at the time because they were so overwhelmed with cases that I had to wait for quite a while until I was taken in. And then when they brought me in, they basically said to me, your husband is very, very sick. And I knew in that moment that he probably wasn't going to make it. And I knew I was right behind him.

MG: You yourself were in a coma for 31 days.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: Yes, correct. I was in the hospital for 65, and 31 of those was in a medically induced coma where I almost died twice. Once was a major cardiac issue as a result of covid. And then the other one was just picking up a secondary infection.

MG: Oh, my goodness.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: And I had that form of covid that had the horrific hallucinations, which were really horrible. And I remember them vividly.

MG: How did you learn that that Steven had died?

KAREN NASCEMBENI: You know, when I woke up. I didn't ask for Steve, and I said, where are my sisters, why aren't they here? And the nurses and doctors told me, Karen, you've woken up into a very different time and place. You know, the hospitals are shut down to visitors. And so finally, my sister was able to get on the phone with me and they said to her, you need to wait. They didn't know if I had any kind of, you know, brain damage or not. And so she had to run me through a series of tests, questions to see if I had retained the information from that morning. And so she did. And because she said to me, I'm not going to tell my sister or she said to them, I'm not going to tell my sister twice that her husband has died. So she said to me, I have to, you know, I'm never going to lie to you. Okay. I have to tell you that Stephen didn't make it. And I said to her, I know that. And she said, How do you know? And I said, because when I was in the coma, I had these horrific hallucinations. But the entire time Steven was there in the room with me with a little glow around him, just very sweetly smiling like everything was going to be OK. So I knew because I felt his presence when I was there in the coma.

MG: How are you doing now? How are you feeling now?

MG: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I'm I'm feeling- you know what? I woke up, I didn't even have a sore throat. I was in good shape other than the fact that I couldn't walk, you know, because I had been given paralytics and whatnot. And so I, you know, gradually got stronger. And then, you know, this virus was kind of dormant in your body for a while. And as you know, with some of the long hauliers and whatnot, it'll pop up in different forms. And so I, you know, recently just came off of a two week heart monitor because they pick something up on an echocardiogram. So I'm waiting for those results. And then my kidney levels have been a little bit elevated, which is strange. I never had an issue with that. I never had any heart issues or kidney issues before this. So it's kind of like you just wait and see what how it's going to rear its head again. Overall, I'm getting there.

MG: These are the kind of stories, Alex, that you're telling on faces of covid. Why did you want to start this project?

ALEX GOLDSTEIN: I think the biggest motivation was wanting to put a face and the name to these sort of numbing statistics that were overwhelmed with every day, and to remember that behind all of these numbers are people like Steven, that we have these stories happening across the country of unbelievable loss. And if we only want to think of them in the abstract as statistics and not as the lived experiences of the people behind them, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice. I would also say that I think every single one of these stories since the beginning of the pandemic is asking us important questions around accountability and whether we as a government did enough to prevent these deaths. I feel like that is an obvious, obvious no, but also questions about us in community, about what our responsibility is to each other, to keep each other safe and get each other through this.

MG: Karen, does it help for you? I mean, I can't imagine being in your position, let alone being in your position and talking about it. Does it help for you to tell the story?

KAREN NASCEMBENI: It does, because, you know, when I woke up, I found out I lost my husband, my father in law and a dear friend. And I, if one family is saved because somebody takes this virus more seriously and wears a mask or steps up their protocols, it's worth it to me to live through the pain of retelling the story if it wakes up somebody in the listening audience.

MG: We're seeing the numbers of deaths rise. The numbers of cases escalate sharply in the United States. What is your message to people who still don't take this virus seriously and say, well, those are those people? It could never happen to me.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: You know, you don't want to roll the dice as to which form of this you're going to get, right? You could get the cold. You could be intubated. You could die. And my messages just care about your fellow human beings. You know, you do not want to have to go through what my family and Steven's family have gone through and be less selfish, you know, if not for yourself, for other people in. The bottom line is we all want to get back to work. Right? And that's not going to happen until everyone starts taking this more seriously.

MG: And Alex, is that is that in some ways the message that you're trying to send with this as well, he numbers and the numbers are alarming, but in telling the human stories that that could perhaps alert people to take this more seriously than they might be?

ALEX GOLDSTEIN: It is certainly my hope, and I am so moved by Karen and people like her who have been willing to lend their voice to this because it is so traumatic to have to retell these stories over and over again. But I'm also, you know, in addition to trying to warn people, I also want to create a space where strangers who you've never met can come together and celebrate that your loved one lived a beautiful life and that they mattered and that the fact that they're not here anymore is harmful to all of us and that we've all lost something in the process.

MG: Thanks for speaking with us and Karen, take care of yourself.

KAREN NASCEMBENI: Thanks, Matt.

MG: I really, really appreciate you both being here.

ALEX GOLDSTEIN: Thank you.

MG: Thank you very much. Alex Goldstein is a communications expert and the creator of the Twitter page Faces of covid, as well as one called two shots in the arm, which is about the vaccine and the arrival of that vaccine. We reached him in Boston. Karen Nascembeni lost her husband to covid in March. She had covid herself, as you heard, and was in a medically induced coma for 31 days. She was in Lynnfield, Massachusetts. While millions of Americans are waiting with anticipation for their turn at that covid shot. Millions of others aren't so sure.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We don't know any kind of side effects from that. So I just really feel like at this point where it's people that's going to take that vaccine as guinea pigs, I just feel like we don't know enough.

VOICE 2: I'll have to convince my father because he don't know what this vaccine is about as black people. That's all we know is to trust the law and trust God. We have to convince our family that this is the right thing to do because this helps slow it down and help us to survive.

MG: There is a long history of black folk and other people of colour being used and abused by the scientific and medical world. And now, while covid-19 is disproportionately hitting these communities, they are also seeing a wave of vaccine hesitancy. Michael Pearson knows this all too well. He is a black community leader in Philadelphia and decided to do something to try to change those feelings. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL PEARSON: Good morning, how are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. You signed up to take part in the trials for the Moderna vaccine. Why did you do that?

MICHAEL PEARSON: That's correct. I was moved by the need to have more people from my community. I'm an African-American male. We were underrepresented in the study and I wanted to help dismiss some of the disinformation around the science.

MG: Tell me about that disinformation that you were hearing in your community. What were people? And we heard a little bit of it there, people saying that we don't know, you know, what's in the vaccine and people are worried about being guinea pigs. What were you hearing in your community in Philly about the vaccine?

MICHAEL PEARSON: First of all, the earlier clips you played are very representative of the hesitancy in our community because of the experimentation or history you hear of things about the Tuskegee study in nineteen thirty two, which denied treatment for syphilis for black males for three years. And you hear about gynaecology, the father of gynaecology, Dr. Simms, using women, African-American women, these legacies have lived. And now we don't have anecdotal, but we have historical documentation of these atrocities. So that connection to the African-American community has been damaged and has many of us know that health disparities have been in high focus very recently because of the heightened social injustice that has been spotlighted over the deaths at the hands of the police. So this distrust has to be taken on and we have to have citizens in the United States take it personally in terms of ensuring our communities of colour have access to this vaccine. But not only access, we go out and we get over the hesitancy and we move the country to creating communities.

MG: What did your friends and family think when you said, I'm going to sign up for the trials for this vaccine, given what you just talked about?

MICHAEL PEARSON: Their response was twofold. I have some friends who are of the more conservative ilk and there are some folks who still believe that's a hoax and this is silly. And then there were my African-American friends and relatives who expressed great concern and distrust because of the expedited nature of the study.

MG: And what did you say to them in response?

MICHAEL PEARSON: I said I did my homework. I am not a health professional, but I am involved in a volunteer basis. And I wanted to go out and find out what were the best sources of information and to realise that no shortcuts were taken on the approval from the protocol. However, it was expedited to get as many alternative treatments via vaccination out into the community as a whole so that we could build some defence against covid-19. The side effects were mild and I wasn't at all brave or courageous. I was simply taking part in a very sensible, science based study and I certainly wouldn't be very cavalier about my own life.

MG: Dr. Anthony Fauci, who is going to be in charge of Joe Biden's efforts to deal with the pandemic, has been speaking about vaccine hesitancy amongst black and Latino Americans. Take a listen to what he said recently.

SOUNDCLIP

So the first thing you might want to say to my African-American brothers and sisters is that the vaccine that you're going to be taking was developed by an African-American woman.

MG: Michael Pearson, how important is it for someone like Foushee to be saying that directly and to be trying to convince black Americans that this vaccine is safe?

MICHAEL PEARSON: First of all, Dr. Fauci, she has credibility in many communities and he also has a very brilliant scientist slash physician, but he also has a heart and compassion, which I think people read into. And he's very astute emotionally. So he's speaking to the heart of those communities where our leaders and we don't need other folks to designate who our leaders are. But we go out, we find out who they think are leaders and begin to supply the science and get them to help and getting the message out.

MG: So is that what you'll need to convince the community, is people who the community respects, people who the community looks at as leaders like yourself to be seen to be taking the vaccine?

MICHAEL PEARSON: Well, thank you, but I don't consider myself a leader, I consider myself a concerned citizen, and I think other concerned citizens who others may perceive as leaders, owe it to themselves to be as public about getting this vaccine as possible. And just as social media can be a tool for disinformation, it can be a tool for righteousness and much needed legitimate information and building a cohesive effort, similar to what Jonas Salk did with the polio and the March of Dimes efforts. Let's do this has and I will just say, is the United States let's do it as North America, let's do it as the world and know that we can defeat covid.

MG: Michael, it's good to speak with you about this. Thank you.

MICHAEL PEARSON: You're welcome. Thank you.

MG: Michael Pearson, community leader in Philadelphia who took part in the Maidana vaccine trials. Dr. Georges Benjamin is the executive director of the American Public Health Association, an organisation for health professionals in the United States. He's been listening into our conversations. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: Good morning.

MG: Let me just pick up first on on what Michael was talking about as a black man yourself. Do you understand some of the hesitancy within black communities in Latino communities as well around vaccines, given the historical discrimination, the historical racism within the health care system in your country?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, the historical part is interesting, but the challenge that we still have is that people still are having those experiences. People are still being disrespected or profiled. And I think the challenge is, is that while people remember all of these these things that happened in the past and we passed those parcels along as oral history is people's current experience, which gives them the distrust in many parts of the health care enterprise.

MG: What does that tell you then about what you're up against? Cases, you know, 300000 Americans dead from covid-19 cases, averaging new cases around 200000 a day, projections that there could be perhaps half a million people dead in your country by the end of December or early next year. So what does that tell you about what you're up against?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: It tells us we're up against a significant headwind is not one that we can overcome. But I think while we're focussed like a laser on communities of colour, just understand that there's a whole range of people in our country that just have a lot of misinformation because of the poor messaging and the confusing messages that are being given to our whole population.

MG: Do you think that covid is less politicised now in your country than it was now?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: I think that politicisation does continue.

MG: So how do you tackle that? I mean, people have said that in some ways it feels as though the current president, Donald Trump, has has lost interest in the pandemic. If that's the case, how do you go about tackling that politicisation of a virus?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: I think Michael has, you know, when he got into something right quick, when he said that, you know, you can counter misinformation with good information. And I think that's the way to do it. Having a unified national message with multiple messengers, with people that people trust, giving that message. You remember most of these most people that are having challenges with getting the vaccine are hesitant. They're not necessarily anti vaccine. So hesitancy means that you can overcome that by good education.

MG: There's a long time until people will be vaccinated across the spectrum, enough to give herd immunity. What people are seeing in the United States right now and elsewhere, people say, is the result perhaps of what happened over the course of Thanksgiving where the messaging said stay home. People still continue to gather. Christmas is a week away, and one can only imagine that many Americans will still gather to celebrate the holidays. What is your your greatest concern?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: Well, the surge you're seeing right now is the Thanksgiving surge. And we're going to see, tragically, another surge after Christmas towards the New Year's. And that's because of people may not listen. And I think the way we just have to continue to hammer the message. Wear a mask. Wash your hands. Keep your distance. Limit travel to essential travel. And when you travel, travel safely. And I think that's the only thing we can do is continue to hammer those messages out every single day.

MG: How bad could it possibly get to, do you think?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: Oh, we're going to tragically I mean, the modelling shows we're going to hit over 400,000 deaths by the new year. And and I think we're going to go way beyond that at some point if we don't change our behaviour. And I think the point is, if we don't change our behaviour, we don't have to have those deaths. We don't have to have those terrible outcomes. We control the future.

MG: What is the plan if the situation moves forward, as you're saying, and hospitals become overwhelmed?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: You know, I've spent a fair amount of my early career practising emergency medicine. And, you know, we're going to, we will build new facilities, will bring additional staff. And I'm really hoping we never have to get to what we call the crisis standard of care, where we're doing that kind of war triage, where we just can't take care of everyone. We're going to do the best we can. But I think the best thing we can do is to emphasise prevention. And if we emphasise prevention, then we will not get to that situation.

MG: I'm going to ask you about Joe Biden in a moment, but what would you want to hear from Donald Trump right now?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: The president has an opportunity to to champion the vaccine. He has an opportunity to talk about prevention. He has an opportunity to provide some leadership in his last 30 or so days as president. And I would like for him to provide that leadership. Do you expect that to happen? You know, I am always hopeful that people will change. But the truth is, I don't think he's going to change.

MG: I was going to say that's a big sigh that you gave before you answer that question.

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: It is. It is. And I you know, you know, someone's going to have to convince him that is in his interest to show that leadership. And many people have tried. And so far he's not listening.

MG: The president elect Joe Biden has promised to change the approach in your country to the pandemic. Take a listen to part of his plan.

SOUNDCLIP

My first 100 days won't end the covid-19 virus. I can't promise that. But, but we did not get into this mess quickly. We're not going to get out of it quickly. It's going to take some time. But I'm absolutely convinced that in 100 days we can change the course of the disease and change life in America for the better.

MG: Are you optimistic of what you're hearing so far?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: I'm very optimistic because I know what he's espousing is modelling the behaviour he wants us to do. He's given us a clear plan and he's given us some goals and objectives. He's saying, listen, hang in there with me, 400. You know, my first 100 days, wear a mask, socially distance, get vaccinated. And if we follow that plan, he's promising us a better future. He's not promising us that this thing will go away completely, but he is promising us a better future. And I think that's what Americans need to hear.

MG: How are you going to keep Americans hopeful? The numbers are grim. And to your point, I mean, it does not look like it's going in the right direction. So before I let you go, how are you going to keep Americans hopeful?

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: You know, when I was practising clinical medicine and I had a very, very sick patient. I level with my patients and their families and I and I gave them, you know, the point that the prospects may not be the best, but here are our options. And if we do these things, we have to have a good chance of your health improving. And I think that's the same thing we have to do to the American people. We have to say we understand the science better than we did a year ago. We have some tools and increasingly no tools that can solve this problem and join us and hang in there, follow these these good prevention tools and we'll get we'll get out of this.

MG: Dr. Benjamin, I wish you the best and it's good to speak with you this morning. Thank you.

DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Georges Benjamin is the executive director of the American Public Health Association. He was in Washington, D.C. Coming up after your regional update. It has been a very difficult year in Nova Scotia and there is more heartbreak. We will speak with the mayor of Yarmouth about how her community is grappling with the loss of six fishermen after their boat went missing this week. That's coming your way in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one.

N.S. community awaits news of missing fishing boat

Guests: Mayor Pam Mood

MG: I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. Nova Scotia kids have suffered more than most this year. In April, 22 people were killed in Canada's worst ever mass shooting. Then six military members from the province died in a Canadian Forces helicopter crash. Another Nova Scotia died in the snowbird crash. Of course, all of this happened during the pandemic. So when news broke this week that a scallop fishing boat had gone missing, the community of Yarmouth and the entire province braced itself. The boat, the chief, William Saulis, had not been found thus far. One body has been recovered. Five fishermen are still missing. The Maritime Joint Rescue Coordination Centre says the search has been suspended and the RCMP will handle the investigation as a missing persons case. Aaron Cogswell was one of the men on board the boat. His mother, Lori Phillips, spoke with Carol off last night on As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

He liked being on the water. He just loved to work. He was a workhorse. He he bought his first car at 16, taken strawberries like he's always worked. He just like to have fun. He was a jokester. He just he was a good kid. If you needed something, he had it, you got it. He was very generous. He was just- He was perfect.

MG: Lori Phillips, the mother of Aaron Cogswell, speaking out as it happens last night. Pam Mood is the mayor of Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. Mayor Mood, good morning. Good morning. That I'm so sorry for what your community has gone through.

PAM MOOD: Thank you for that. It's you know, we are resilient East coasters, we bounce back every time, but this just becomes part of who we are. And now isn't the time, certainly for people to bounce back. It's time to grieve. And we need to allow that for the community.

MG: You knew some of the men on that fishing boat.

PAM MOOD: I did. You know, we are a small community, southwestern Nova Scotia. Everybody knows everybody. And so I would say to you that every single person on that boat, everybody in the community knows one of them in one way or another. So it's is tremendously difficult. It's bad enough, you know, when you hear the stories. But when you've seen these people on the street chatted with them last, that laughed with them, it's you know, it's just brings it to another level.

MG: And so who are you thinking about this morning?

PAM MOOD: I am thinking about the families. My heart breaks for them. I can't imagine the devastation, the shock, you know, the the emotions that they're going through and trying to manage their way through that. We have here, and this was a scallop vessel, but we have each lobster fishing season. We have what's called dumping day. And the community gathers, you know, at the shore and the mixture of emotion. There is everything from excitement to to fear to angst, everything. It's you can't even put it into words. And, you know, it's every single person in the community. No one's left out. It's as I said, it's who we are. And, you know, what happens is you just you just pray and pray and pray that the worst won't happen and then this happens.

MG: And that the boats will come back.

PAM MOOD: Absolutely. That's all that's all we ever want. Please come back in safely. And this is the worst nightmare. And it's happened.

MG: How hard I mean, for people who don't know this life, I mean, how difficult is it to fish in those freezing waters?

PAM MOOD: Oh, my gosh. It's I would say, you know, there's a reason they put television shows on with the crab fishery and things like that. It's probably one of the most difficult things anybody can take on as a career. You know, they head out every day. I say day, you know, the middle of the night. The seas are high. It's the Atlantic. It's unforgiving. It takes lives and it doesn't care. That's what that's what we are sending our family members out to every single day. And in a town like this, actually, you know, all of Nova Scotia, the fishery is our mainstay. And what's what makes us go round them without that, and those men know when they go out, if they come back with a good patch, you know, the economy continues. Without and it doesn't.

MG: What's the weather been like in Nova Scotia this week? Was there any hints that the weather may have had something to do with us?

PAM MOOD: Yeah, it was it was a windy day. It was an ugly day. And I can say this, that we are here in Yarmouth at least, that we are lovingly referred to as the banana belt, but it has been freezing below zero temperatures that we're not used to here. The wind has been blowing. It's snowing today. It's the whole package just horrific. And you can feel it in the air. You know, the whole town is just solemn and, you know, not even knowing what to do except support each other.

MG: I said in the introduction that your province has gone through a lot. And I mean, everyone in this country has carried a lot, but it feels as though it just keeps happening to Nova Scotia. How does your community support each other day in and day out, given what you've gone through this year?

PAM MOOD: Yeah, that's a really great question. We know each other. We care about each other. I think it's East Coasters as a people in general where we are just we're welcoming. Our arms are always open to whoever comes here. And so with our very own, of course, we just embrace tremendously difficult with covid, people are making phone calls, you know, reaching out through social media, face timing, all those things. But the important and I keep trying to drive this home when I do the media just to make sure that folks are reaching out because nobody needs to be or can be alone in times like this. So it's doubly difficult with covid. But, you know, we just come together, we do fundraisers, you know, kind of just little contests online, silly little things that that help people understand. You are not alone. We're here for each other. And I can tell you that whatever these folks and families. It will be given to them tenfold without even asking.

MG: On the Twitter or your bio reads wife, mom and positive force, and you work hard to be a positive force in your community.

PAM MOOD: Yeah, yeah, you know, leaders need to be positive and folks need to see their leadership, you know, in a positive light, that's what we do. We grieve certainly with the community. I mean, I've been in tears more often than not in the last 24 hours, 48 hours. But right now, the positive is there not. But I'm trying to help the community understand. We have to allow the grief process. It's part of life. It's part of what you have to do to get to the other side. And, you know, again, as I started, you know, what I said in the beginning was we will get to the other side because we are resilient to these coasters. It's what we do. We keep getting punched in the face and we keep standing back up, but also understand that this will never go away for us. This will be come apart not just of our history, but of who we are as people. And we've just learnt to live with that.

MG: We send our best to you and to your community. And I appreciate you speaking with us this morning, Pam. Thank you.

PAM MOOD: I appreciate you reaching out. Thanks, Matt.

MG: Take care of yourself. Pam Mood is the mayor of Yarmouth, Nova Scotia.

[Music]

Is it time for a fusion cuisine comeback? Yotam Ottolenghi and Ixta Belfrage think so

Guests: Mayor Pam Mood, Yotam Ottolenghi, Ixta Belfrage

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway here.

SOUNDCLIP

How about some lettuce?

[Sound: Kids screaming]

MG: Sound familiar? No lettuce, whether you're a parent or maybe even the lettuce hater yourself. We all know that veggies can sometimes be a hard sell at the dinner table. If you ask Yotam Ottolenghi, though, he will probably tell you it's about getting creative. For nearly two decades, he's been coming up with exciting ways to get people to eat their vegetables through his cookbooks, newspaper columns and restaurants. He has changed the way we eat, encouraging diners to explore both the flavours of his hometown of Jerusalem and many points beyond. His latest book of recipes is simply called "Flavour". It's written with Ixta Belfrage, who works with him in his test kitchen. And I spoke with Yotam Ottolenghi and Ixsta Belfrage in October. Here's our conversation.

MG: For a long time it felt as though vegetables were looked at in some corners as kind of a necessary evil, Yotam. You have changed that and changed that in big ways. Why do you love vegetables so much?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: Well, the short answer is because they're good. And the long answer is that they are just full of potential. And you know what? You could get out of the vegetable, which if you treat it well and look at it in a creative way and spend time getting the right ingredients and cooking it properly, you really get a lot back. And the transformation that a vegetable can go through is quite incredible. And that's why I think both Ixta and I love vegetables so much for all this stuff that we can do to them.

MG: Ixta, do you buy that idea that they used to be poor? Perhaps in some corners still are seen as sort of a necessary evil. We are always told, as kids, eat your vegetables and that was kind of like punishment in some ways.

IXTA BELFRAGE: Absolutely. I mean, I personally have actually always grown up eating vegetables because my mum is a nutritionist. But I remember when I was younger living in London or going out to restaurants or eating in school vegetables and pretty much just steamed or boiled. And I think we say in the book that, you know, if you steam or boil a vegetable, it's only going to taste like a hot version of itself. And that's boring and basically and not showing the full potential of that vegetable. So, yes, I think we've well, Yotam, over the years has brought all these vegetables a very long way. And we will continue to do that in flavour.

MG: What's the first step and thinking differently about something that perhaps people didn't love?

IXTA BELFRAGE: I think the first step is to sort of throw away any preconceptions that you have about it. And that might be a preconception about how you cook that vegetable. But if you throw away those preconceptions and just think to yourself as actually an endless list of ways that you can cut that vegetable, and that's as long as the list as ingredients that you compare that vegetable with. And that's as long as the list and the ways you can cook the vegetables. And honestly, there's millions of ways, and especially there will be ingredients you compare it with. The possibilities are endless.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: And if I could just interrupt here, I'd say we look at things that we think we know how to cook, like culturally. You know, the typical one is the Brussels sprouts. You know, I've come across it so many times since it came here on, you know, on Christmas or holiday tables. And people really didn't have that kind of idea that you steamed or boiled brussel sprouts and served them pretty neat, neutral, you know, with butter or even without that is something which is common here in Britain. And then once people discovered you can actually roast Brussels sprouts or grilled them, there's all all of a sudden there is this kind of sense of realisation. While you can actually get a bit of smoke going on, some charring, some crunch soft bits with hard bits in the experience, and all of a sudden it becomes something so exciting. And the same with a cauliflower. You know, again, if you roasted, if you grill it, if you turn it into a fritter, these are all incredible ways to really, you know, discover the vegetable. And once you know that there's no going back, really, then you could still boil the cauliflower. But then I'd just mix it up with lots of aromatics and maybe fry it, you know, like it would be on a journey on the way somewhere else rather than just boiling it.

MG: There's some science in the book, which is neat. And I mean, you talk about grilling or roasting vegetables. What happens, Yotam, if you grill or roast a cauliflower? I mean, scientifically, what goes on to change the flavour of that vegetable?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: So we were talking about we're talking about the book about different ways in which you can cook your vegetables. And we talk about particular technique. One of them is grilling in which on the surface starts to char and you've got the flavour of smoke coming through that charring and you've got a slightly burnt flavour, good burnt flavour, those kind of bitter notes that are so complex and interesting. And that's one thing that happens. And then deeper in longer cooking, you've got Browning and there's all sorts of fancy terms for it in my art process, et cetera. You don't really need to know all these terms to understand that something just becomes sweeter when you start cooking the starches and turning them into sugars. And we have a recipe that really exemplifies that really well, it's a whole head of celeriac celery root, which is cooked for about three hours with just some olive oil and salt. And by the end of this process, something which is, you know, hard and starchy and pretty one dimensional becomes really wonderfully sweet. You don't add in the sugars, but those are the natural sugars coming to the surface. So we just stop it in this section openers and just talk about all these things that we know happen in the recipes with some people just are not aware that this is what's going on these days.

MG: Is this what happens in the test kitchen all the time where you're trying to kind of, I don't know, on unlock the flavour or something that you think you know what it tastes like?

IXTA BELFRAGE: I'd say yes and no. A lot of the time there isn't. There's obviously a lot of thought about it. And I'd say that some of the best recipes that come out also come about by mistake or in in wanting to create something, you end up creating something better or something different. Sometimes there's a lot of thought process behind it and sometimes it's sort of a happy, happy mistake.

MG: Yotam, what do you like about working with Easter? And in that test kitchen in particular, I mean, it sounds like a laboratory in some ways.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: It sounds fancier than it actually is. It's not the normal lab with, you know, with all this science of, you know, all the advanced equipment and all the rest, we're trying to keep it very similar as possible to someone's modest home kitchen, because the test kitchen is where we test mostly recipes for home cooks and not for the restaurant. So, you know, we love working in the test kitchen because it is a wonderful place to work in. But it is very, it's kind of simple. And when Ixta joined the test kitchen about four years ago, I noticed that she's talented and passionate and, you know, very clever and in the unusual flavour combinations that she does. You know, some of my favourite recipes in this book are really wonderful examples of that sense of adventure and creativity in Ixta's cooking, one of them. And just to give you one example is the recipe that we suggested for Christmas celebration. It's a turnip cake. It's inspired by something that you have in dim sum and Chinese restaurants on the weekend. But it's a vegetarian version where the Chinese pork sausage and the drug shrimps are replaced with [unintelligible] mushrooms and pine nuts and sesame seeds. And it's just wonderful and luscious and it becomes a real celebration of flavour. And I think putting that together is only something that Ixta can do.

MG: And she's just full of those wonderful ideas as to what was the food you grew up eating when you were young?

IXTA BELFRAGE: Well, mine my mother is Brazilian and I have a lot of family in Mexico, so a lot of Latin and South American food, fontaine's and black beans and rice with nearly every meal that my and my mom is a nutritionist. I grew up eating very healthily. I was I grew up in Italy, so I was exposed to incredible Tuscan food from a very young age. And yeah, I think having exposure to all of those different cultures and the food of those cultures is probably what spurred me to cook because I knew what incredible food tasted like. And I didn't really get that at home because we ate extremely healthy at home. My mom's not the most fantastic. That's why I taught myself at an early age.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: Something that I learnt over the years. You cook either because your parents are wonderful cooks or because they're terrible.

MG: You have a story in the book, Yotam, about a potato that you remember like the first, not that the first memory of food. But in some ways, one of those memories, it's like actually burnt in your fingers because it was hot as you are appealing the potato. What was that?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: Yes. So there is a Jewish holiday that is celebrated widely in Israel. It's called [unintelligible], which is well, part of the tradition is to light fires, bonfires all all over to kind of symbolise enlightenment. But in a way, it is about those are the lights. For me it was just all about the fire and it was kind of the earlier experience for me, a transformation through heat and cooking. I was throwing potatoes into the embers of those fires and then as a very young child, picking those potatoes out of the [unintelligible] at the end of the bonfire and peeling the very thick, charred skin and having this steaming hot potato that's just being cooked without anything else. You know, there's no no water, no butter, no oil, nothing. Just that just the day that was just so delicious. And it's something very basic and primitive. And we all recognise these moments where you really, really have a realisation how wonderful it is that what happens when you cook. And I quote that example, because it really stuck in my mind since my childhood.

MG: What has changed, do you think, in term how we eat since you started publishing cookbooks and these recipes in newspapers. How do you think if you take a look at the sweep of time and it's not meant to age you or anything of that, but. But how do you think? How we've eaten has changed over that time.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: So I think there's been a lot of change, but also not in some quarters, but maybe not enough change in other quarters. So, you know, the excitement and fascination and creativity that involves cooking vegetables is really spread. I feel it's a real thing that people are eating more vegetables, whether they pronounce themselves as vegan or vegetarians or whether they just do it whilst eating less animal protein. This is a thing. And, you know, I see it in the restaurants and in books sales that there is a real passion for eating more vegetables. Are restaurants always have many more vegetable dishes than meat or fish dishes, because that's what we like to cook, but it's also what our customers want. So that's definitely happening. But on the other hand, I feel that although there is a lot of interest in cooking and cooking vegetables and learning new techniques, I realise that all those, you know, eat getting food so easily to your door via all those delivery services that actually made people cook a bit less. So you kind of see things. You see both trends happening. People definitely know more about food than they did 20 years ago or 50 years ago. There's no doubt about that.

MG: Do you take pleasure and pride in that? I was going to say do take responsibility for that. But in some ways, you think of we're talking about food memories. There are a lot of people, myself included, who have food memories that are associated with either eating in your restaurants or cooking from your cookbooks until the pages are stuck, you know, with oil between them. Do you take pleasure in knowing that you've helped shape how people eat?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: It's the greatest joy, really, that I have to know that people have added one of my recipes to their repertoire. I think it's an incredible thing. It's just because it's long lasting. You know, it's something people take with them and then it sticks. And it's a huge privilege to know that this is actually happening. And I don't always believe that it is. But I also see what people put out there, you know, and so that's a good proof that people do cook. And it's a wonderful feeling.

MG: Ixta, he's being modest. How do you think Yotam has gradually. Do you think he has changed how people eat?

IXTA BELFRAGE: Well, absolutely. And I I really met with what you were saying before about having pages that were stuck together. And I remember my family always cooked from Yotam's first book, and my cousins always used to make Cauliflower salad from the first book. And there was another lentil salad, had blue cheese and I think an almond. But what else now? But that was another one that my family always used to make. And that was- so, yes, I've grown up eating Yotam's food and whether that's in the delis or cooking them. So yes, he's inspired so many others, especially me.

MG: Are there fugitives that you think you have added to the repertoire that perhaps people may not have purchased immediately? Maybe they would've walked by it in the produce section and now they pick it up because they know what to do with it and they know that it's not something to be frightened of, that it's something that you can play with.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: You know, people often say eggplants, aubergines, you know, that they didn't know how to cook or what to do with until they cooked Ottolenghi recipes. So that is probably a fact that it has become much more approachable. Because it's just slightly less intuitive or it's not that simple to cook as it is, let's say, to cook a potato or even a cauliflower. But once you know what you're doing, it's super simple. But you just need to learn, you know, that you need to apply enough heat and enough fast you're roasting or frying. And also all these things you really do need to know. But yes. And then there is the end of the staple of the Middle East that I love, you know, the tahini and all the rest. And I love it that the world has discovered all those ingredients because I just think they're absolutely wonderful. I mean, there's nothing like zaatar or tahini or, you know, at least for me, growing up in the Middle East. And when people enjoy them, too, again, that's another source of great pleasure.

MG: I think some people might be surprised that there's a recipe in here in which you mentioned zaatar. You add za'atar to cacio e pepé, which is like the classic Italian dish. It's as simple as it gets pasta with cheese and pepper and then za'atar. You could imagine, you know, an Italian nonna who might say, watch what's going on here. How does that why does that work, do you think?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: We were thinking about it a lot and this dish came about when I said to Ixta that, you know, there's not enough Middle Eastern ingredients in this book. I'm not in Italy and not enough with the Middle East. I said what do we do? And then the idea of adding za'atar to the cacio e pepe was something that Ixta suggested. And I have to say that I was ever so slightly sceptical because it's such a classic and, you know, it's like playing with classics comes at a risk. You can infuriate people, etc.. But I think the proof lies with in the pudding. And in this case, the pudding is that ketchup, which is really benefits a little bit of hard herby kind of flavour. And it does it so well. And because when you think about it, it's very rich and creamy and za'atar, like [unintelligible] like oregano like all these hard herbs goes so well with rich and creamy and buttery things. So in a sense, it's a no brainer, but it takes a little bit of courage to be able to do that. And I'm very proud that we did it because I think it's the result is pretty, pretty good.

MG: Ixta, this is the F word addition to fusion.

IXTA BELFRAGE: Yes. So it's a work that people don't really like. But I think Yotam and I are trying to embrace it, sort of trying to bring it back. It is sort of an unfashionable word, but it's really the only way to describe what we're doing until we come up with a better way of describing it. We have to use the word fusion. And I for one. And just as well, absolutely, love fusion cooking. I think it's the way forward. Of course, I love the classics and I'll always go back to them, but as a recipe developer creating recipes I think the only way forward is fusion. Doing that considerately, not just putting things together willy nilly, but really thinking about what goes together, breaking things down into flavours and mixing and matching considerately. And it really yields some of the best results.

MG: How do you do that, Yotam, in a considered way? I mean, one of the reasons why people steered away from fusion was because it was then this big movement towards you. This is authentic cuisine. And by authentic, it meant this is how people have eaten it for however long. And then if you play around with it, you could be accused of messing with someone's traditions, appropriating their traditions, what have you. How do you do it in a way that is great, but also respects where it came from?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: Fusion. I think historically, because it was so popular in that, you know, in the late 90s and people just this dislike with so many other food trends, they discovered something and then everybody wanted to do a lot. Everybody did it in a considerate and clever way. And some people don't have the sensitivity to decide when combining things is the right thing to do or not. And I think this is what Ixta means when she said consider it because you can be considerate of someone's culture, which is important, but considerate is also considerate to ingredients and what works together and what doesn't. And sometimes it just feels totally wrong to mix things in and you just know it as soon as you taste it. So you need to be super hypersensitive to what goes on the plate during the pan and say, OK, that's one step too far or that just doesn't work, that combination. Set it aside. The other thing is whether when you mix things up and this is the more cultural aspect of fusion, you also need to be supersensitive to what are the cultural implications of what are you doing? Who are you crediting? Whose cultures are you using? And I think it's very- I would never want to not cook food or any other culture because I think that's what we've been doing from the dawn of cooking. And there's no reason why we should stop ourselves from cooking someone else's food, because that's just how great cuisines have evolved over the years. But on the other hand, it's extremely important to recognise whose food you're cooking, whether it's an individual or a whole culture or subculture, and give credit and, you know, inform your reader or the people that cook your food about the origins of a dish at super important.

MG: What's the opportunity there? I think of a book The Jerusalem that you wrote with your friend and your business partner, Sami Tamimi, who was on this programme not so long ago talking about his own new book. Is there an opportunity, if you do it right, to turn people's heads in a way that they might not otherwise because of politics or cultural barriers or what have you?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: I think the opportunity is great because we can really spread knowledge through food. I kind of discover the world through food because that's what I'm interested in whenever I go to place, the first thing I do is find out where the interesting food is, where the restaurants are and they go. And it's a great tool because it's a language that everybody speaks, you know, even if you don't speak the verbal language, the culinary language you can experience through eating. So the potential is amazing. And, you know, for instance, there is a recipe and the flavour for a cucumber salad that is inspired by the food of Xian in China. And Ixta and I haven't been to Sian's, but we've both eaten in a restaurant that cooks that food from this region of China called Xian's Impression here in London. And we tried to emulate that cucumber salad that we love eating there. It's quite far removed from their original dish. But still, that was the impetus. And I feel like I know something. I learnt something that made me look go online and look about Xian and understand something about it. And I think this is an incredibly powerful thing. When you think about it, all of us or many of us are on social media and many of our online. So when you cook someone else's food, you definitely learn something about them. And it's a very powerful way to bring down barriers wherever they exist.

MG: Ixta in the US, as we call it, the before times, you'd been able to get on a plane and perhaps go to Xian and eat the cucumber salad there. You can't because of this pandemic and the lockdown's that we're still all under. Are you finding that people are thinking differently about food now that we're spending more time at home?

IXTA BELFRAGE: Yes, I think it's evident from social media that people are becoming more invested in things that take time and salt and bread. So, for example, Chenggang Needle, is that something that I spent a lot of time learning how to make of a lock down. And of course, people are more considerate of ingredients in the sense that they know that they're not as easy to get to chain supplies struggling at the moment. You can't get to the shops as often as you want. So creating recipes from what you might have sitting around in your store cupboard at the bottom of your fridge was something that we ate a lot during lockdown. And we actually created some really exciting recipes just using those ingredients and not going out to get more. We're actually out of lockdown here. There is rumblings of another one, but we can go to restaurants every now and then. But we've still taken some of that information that we learnt over lockdown about how to create delicious meals from a few ingredients.

MG: Yotam. Just finally, if people have been spending a lot of time at home and maybe they're in a cooking rut right now, they're tired of the repertoire. Aside from picking up this new book, what's one thing that somebody could do to get out of the cooking rut?

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: They can roast the vegetable. They can. There's another thing which Ixta just pointed to a page in the book which has a bunch of we call them flavour bombs or condiments, which are bits from recipes that you could actually use in your future meal. So every time you create a marinade or a sauce or a certain part of a recipe, we often recommend to double or triple or quadruple the amount and keep it on the side. So we're talking about quick pickles or different chilli sauces or chilli oils or butters or mayos or any other marinades that end up being something that you can fill your pantry with in the fridge or on the shelf and then makes your life much easier next time you make your rice or you cook your pasta or your noodles or egg. You've got something to enrich it and make it more special and delicious. And it's an easy thing to do. And it's a wonderful thing to have, especially if you're cooking day in and day out.

IXTA BELFRAGE: It keep things exciting if you're getting bored of cooking.

MG: I look forward to this book being splattered with oil and grease and all of the things that I'm cooking like the rest of your books. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Well, thank you.

IXTA BELFRAGE: Thank you.

YOTAM OTTOLENGHI: Thank you.

MG: I'm the kind of person that starts to think about what I'm going to make for dinner when I wake up. Maybe you are too. And perhaps that helps you. Yotam Ottolenghi and Ixta Belfrage are the co-authors of Flavour. I spoke with them in October. As we come to the end of this year, we are replaying some of our favourite interviews of 2020 y and that was one of them. That is The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q Tom Power speaking with Eli Goree, Halifax born actor who is in this fascinating film that I saw as part of the Toronto International Film Festival called One Night in Miami. Eli Goree plays Muhammad Ali. No small shoes to step into there. You'll hear more about it coming up on CBC Radio One. That's it for us for today. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

Thursday December 17, 2020 Transcript

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