People skipping doctors and using CBD oil for bipolar disorder 'not treated at all,' warns expert

Guests: Tim Caulfield, Dr. Gabriella Gobbi

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CBD COMMERCIAL: Heals PTSD, heals brain injury, cures cancer, stops epilepsy...

MG: The list of benefits attributed to cannibidiol - known as CBD - goes on and on.

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CBD COMMERCIAL: ...calms dogs, relieves menstrual cramps, helps you sleep, soothes, rejuvenates, curbs anger, reverses depression, slows Parkinson's, promotes recovery from opioid addiction...

MG: CBD is being put into creams and oils. It's being infused into lattes, baked into brownies. Spas are even offering CBD facials. CBD is a chemical component of the cannabis plant. But unlike THC, it won't make you feel high. As you may have heard, one Canadian woman who uses CBD to treat pain associated with scoliosis is facing a lifetime ban from the United States. She was caught with the product while trying to cross the border. That news probably won't stop the growing number of people rushing out to buy CBD in all its forms. People like these shoppers at Toronto's CAFE - a cannabis dispensary on Bloor Street.

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VOICE 1: I think it's got a place in the market, for sure. My daughter has epilepsy and I know that it's been advised to us by her specialists to help control some of the mood issues that happen as a part of some of the medications with epilepsy, and other side effects that come with it like liver and pancreas. When you have to take it orally it can be rather devastating, and the CBD oil doesn't have the same effects.

VOICE 2: I tried it one time. You know, I put a couple drops under my tongue. Like, I had depression and like after I put it under my tongue it totally went away. I know it really calms my feelings and I really think people should try it. Yeah.

VOICE 3: Actually, I think more people should use it. It's actually quite... I don't know, like in my experience it's been helpful. A healthy sleep. Like, it's really good for anti-inflammation, pain and stuff like that. I got some from my mom - she like has arthritis and stuff - so I mean like it helps her.

MG: CBD oil users might be reporting those amazing effects but the research hasn't yet backed up all the touted benefits. Tim Caulfield is Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. He's in our studio in Edmonton. Tim, hello.

TIM CAULFIELD: Good morning.

MG: We have been hearing a lot about the so-called benefits of medical marijuana for a long time. This feels like something new. The wild interest in CBD - what do you make of what you just heard and what might be behind the sudden popularity of this?

TIM CAULFIELD: It really is incredible how- how quickly this has become... become popular. I mean think about- it wasn't that long ago, really, that we were worried about, you know, cannabis and marijuana. "Reefer Madness", right? And now we've moved into this phase of where CBD is viewed, you know, "CBD crazy"! Right? We've moved into this world where it's become part of the wellness industry. This massive multi-billion dollar industry and it really is an incredibly fast shift. And you've got to wonder what's going on in. And part of it for me I think it is it is this connection to the wellness industry which has happened very, very quickly. There's this perception that that CBD is natural, you know. It's not a pharmaceutical, even though it is a chemical, right? Like any other, any other chemical. And also, I think that there is this belief that it's a cure-all. That it can do so many so many things which actually should be, you know, a warning because there are, you know, there's never a single chemical that can do all of these different- different things. So I think there's a... combination of things that are going on. And of course, there's this rebel component to it also. This idea that, you know, it used to be illegal, and it's been around for a really long time, and now it's available. So I think that also gives it an exotic feel.

MG: How much of this has to do with celebrities lining up and saying this is the thing that has saved my life? It might be Gwyneth Paltrow, might be Seth Rogen, it might be will be Whoopi Goldberg - all of them saying that they love CBD and that it is it has made their lives immeasurably better.

TIM CAULFIELD: For sure that's part of the story. And you know Gwyneth is just one example, you know. She had on her on her website, Goop, she has articles explaining how to buy cannabis and why CBD works. And what's interesting is the pop culture press has picked up on a lot of this. The Melissa McCarthy example you used in the intro is a good example. Kylie Jenner and a lot of athletes use it for post-recovery and it's presented to the to the public in pop culture as if it works. You know the efficacy is taken for granted. There's no critical appraisal of what's going on so, you know, pop culture for sure, celebrities for sure helped to spread the word.

MG: The result of that though is that you have your friends and neighbours anecdotally - if you just talk to people, aunties, uncles, you know, someone's grandmother uses it. We heard in the clip there are people talking about how it's, you know, made their depression go away. What is it about this that has made it beyond the celebrity factor? This kind of poster child for alternative medicine? This thing that people will now turn to and there's that long list that we heard of things that it may or may not help cure?

TIM CAULFIELD: For sure. I have friends that say the same thing. You know, I'm exposed to this too on the street. So I think part of it - we can't forget this is a huge industry, a multi-billion dollar industry - so there's definitely marketing going on there too. Look, there's also the placebo effect that could be playing a role here, and we know that that plays a role in a lot of these different alternative medicine realms. And also, unlike some areas this is an interesting chemical! It might be working but we need better research. We need good clinical trials to find out. Also, you have to remember we don't know what's in a lot of these products. You know, there could be contamination. There's a study from the U.K. that came out just a couple weeks ago that found almost half of these products are contaminated with THC. So, you know, we don't know what's going on even in these products. And if you're trying to find something that works, we don't know what dose is going to work for you.

MG: That's interesting because as you mentioned, some of the hype that roll into this is the fact that people say that it's "natural", "it's derived from plants, therefore it must be good for you."

TIM CAULFIELD: Yeah. That's really helped, I think, with the "health halo" that surrounds this. You know, and when I've talked about CBD on social media and, you know, and I'm just posting studies that say that doesn't work, you know, the hate rains down on me. One of the things you often hear is that this, you know, somehow you're pro-big pharma and somehow CBD is anti-big pharma. It's natural. It's been around for a long time. It's an ancient remedy. So I think for sure that's part of the allure.

MG: When you hear the laundry list of things we heard, even from some of the people saying again their depression went away, you know, helps deal with anxiety, helps deal with epilepsy, what are the alarm bells that go off for you?

TIM CAULFIELD: Well you know, I mentioned one already. There's almost no remedy that's going to work for all of these different things. You know, there's almost none. Exercise might be the only way I can think of. And it... that should set off alarm bells for everyone. If you look at the clinical data that's coming out, for sure seizures and we heard one of the people say... that's been an indication where there's evidence to support it. There's emerging stuff on anxiety and sleep but we really don't have the good data to back that up. And there has been systematic reviews, you know, I think, by respected academics that have stated that, you know, again and again. But despite that, you know, that's not penetrating the pop culture. People believe in this stuff.

MG: What sort of regulation is there in this country right now for CBD oil?

TIM CAULFIELD: Well I think we need better regulation. This has been recognized by Health Canada. It's been recognized by the FDA and United States and it's been recognized and entered by countries like the UK that we need to regulate this better. And so it is covered by Health Canada and it's actually used in order to provide a CBD product to actually need approval by Health Canada to do that. If you're making health claims about a product, you need approval from Health Canada. If it's being sold as a supplement - so let's say you're not making these bold health claims - it's still supposed to be regulated.

MG: Is that the case because it seems like you can buy it almost anywhere?

TIM CAULFIELD: See, yeah! That is the case and it's the case in the United States also. But there, you know, there's this only so much they can do. It's been legalized and also a lot of the claims are pretty vague. Right? They're not these really bold health claims and, you know, sometimes in the wellness industry we see that a lot with supplements. You know, "increases energy" ... "revitalizing." Those kinds of claims are more difficult to regulate. But Health Canada's recognized this and there's a massive backlog right now with CBD and more within the context of medical marijuana, but regulation, better regulation for sure and better standardization of the product for sure is needed.

MG: If people are turning to this as a solution for serious issues, I mean whether it's chronic pain or helping to alleviate depression, to your point what does the government need to be thinking about when it comes to its regulation?

TIM CAULFIELD: Well I think that also that that highlights that there are real harms associated with this misinformation, right? You know, people- I'm glad that people are finding relief from something, some ailments that they have, but we also can't forget that misinformation can cause people to spend, you know, waste their money. It can also cause them to avoid useful therapies and also can create inappropriate expectations. So you know, I do think that the government has to do what they can and I understand there's only so many resources out there. But this is an incredibly hot topic and we need governments to get on top of it.

MG: It doesn't seem like a new movie in some ways because there has always been something that I could take that's going to make me feel better. Whether I should take echinacea, I need to be having oregano oil, maybe it was cod liver oil back in the day. These things - the silver bullet, the magic miracle drug - come and go. What does that say about what we- what we're looking for?

TIM CAULFIELD: Well we always want a cure-all. And there are always these complex human conditions that we have trouble treating. And when something new comes along and it looks promising I understand why people gravitate to it. But we need- we just need better evidence. And the good news! The good news is this is an interesting, you know, chemical. This is an interesting compound. Yeah, let's study this and find out what it's going to work for. If we could fast forward I want to predict... If we could fast forward 20 years I do think CBD is going to be found to be effective. Not a miracle cure, but effective for some conditions. So let's be patient. Let's fund the good research, let's make it happen.

MG: Tim, thank you.

TIM CAULFIELD: Thank you.

MG: Tim Caulfield, Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. He was in our studio in Edmonton. The hype around CBD, as he was saying, may not be totally unwarranted. My next guest and her team have published research into the effects of substance - of this substance - on pain and anxiety, and there have been some promising results already. Dr. Gabriella Gobbi is a psychiatrist at McGill University's Faculty of Medicine and the McGill University Health Centre and she is in Montreal. Doctor, hello to you!

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Hello. Hi. Good morning.

MG: What do you make of all of the hype around CBD? And I ask this is somebody who has already published that peer review study into this substance.

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Yes. Last year we published this study on pain about the effect of cannabidiol in chronic pain in animal models. So we found that in a chronic pain cannabidiol actually can alleviate pain and result in an anti-anxiety effect. It is effective through the serotonin [inaudible] receptors so the mechanism is very different from a THC. But I would like to point out that this study was done in animal models so we have to go now in a few months to demonstrate that in the clinical trials none that cannabidiol can be good in pain in humans.

MG: Tell me a bit more about what you learned. How does CBD alleviate, in those tests, pain and anxiety?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: OK. We induce chronic pain in animals with kind of a sciatica that they use in humans. Then we test with the bone fray filaments the level of pain in animals and we saw that after the administration of cannabidiol for a few days the pain decreased as well as the anxiety associated. We have a bounty of tests that we can do in animals to see if animals are anxious or not.

MG: Beyond that research would also have you seen that might suggest that this could be an interesting avenue of treatment for other ailments?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Yes. We have no evidence in animals. Now we are studying how so the cannabidiol in sleep If we can have some evidence at least in animal research on hypnotic effect of cannabidiol. But yeah. The search is still long because the first must be validated in animal models and then in the clinical trials. And clinical trials in humans for sleep, it will take a few years.

MG: But when you hear that long list of things that CBD oil is being touted as relief for everything from what we heard the father who is using CBD oil to help treat his daughter's epilepsy, from that to depression, to your point, sleep and insomnia. What goes through your mind when you hear all of that?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Yeah I'm very, very worried. The first because cannabidiol was approved [in] The United States by FDA only for epilepsy, only for some kind of real epilepsy. So this is, right now, it is the only indication that we have for cannabidiol. I'm very worried because today a lot of patients that contacted me from all over Canada and using cannabidiol to treat depression, bipolar disorder, and they skip the first line treatment.

MG: What do you mean- what do you mean they skip the first line treatment?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: So for example, today we can treat quite easily bipolar disorder. We have drugs called mood stabilizer or typical anti-psychotic that can treat these condition. And people avoid to use the efficacy treatment and they try cannabidiol. So it means they're not treated at all. So this is very, very worrisome in our society because people are not cured at the end of the day. They prefer to use cannabidiol even if we don't have evidence of some disease if they don't look for the real efficacy treatment.

MG: So when the person got in touch with you saying that they were looking for advice on treating bipolar through CBD, what did you tell them?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: I tell, 'Look, there are no evidence. Probably CBD would not help your bipolar disorder. Please come back to the real medicine. So we have treatments that are recognized to be valid for this disease. Please ask your doctor to be treated with the first line treatment.'

MG: "The real medicine" is an interesting phrase because as Tim Caulfield just told us there are a lot of people who will turn to CBD oil as an alternative to traditional pharmaceuticals. I'll say that it's natural to say that it's plant-derrived and because of that there must be, you know, a history and a provenance and perhaps it's better for you than those traditional pharmaceuticals.

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: I wrote several times. It's completely stupid because in our pharmacopeia it means that in the drugs, in the medicine that we use today in our country, more than 40 medicines come from plants, from [inaudible], Aspirin, even anti-cancer drug that came from plants and so for a doctor that is not strong, the division between plants and non-plants. So sometimes people is very ignorant about what is a pharmacology, what is medicine. And also plants have side effects as medicine. For example cannabidiol, has a long list of side effects. The report by FDA in the United States from an increase in the liver enzyme, from somnolence, loss of appetite and gastrointestinal side effects, we have a long, long list of support cannabidiol. Hard for other medicine, but that come from plants.

MG: Do we know what's in the bottle? If I buy CBD oil - and as we discussed with Tim it seems that you can buy it just about anywhere, especially online. What's in the bottle?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Yeah. We have a study published last year in JAMA where it was demonstrated that 70 percent, 70 percent of cannabidiol sold online has a fake content of a cannabidiol or has a lot of THC.

MG: Fake content, so what would it be instead?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Fake means a lot of people claim that this is a pure, 100 percent cannabidiol. Instead you have only 5 percent of cannabidiol, a very, very minimal quantity.

MG: And so it may have more thc than than is stated, so I- I might get high if I take it?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Actually I must say that today in Canada to find a pure cannabidiol is very, very, very difficult. Even if you go in the legal shop you find the lowest kind of cannabidiol with the THC.

MG: You know as well as Tim Caulfield does that when you express scepticism around this you'll hear from people who say, 'But I've taken it and it's helped my symptoms, that it's made my chronic pain go away, my hip feels better, I'm sleeping better at night,' what have you. What do you say to those people who have found real success in taking this substance?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Personally I think that the condition like pain, depression, anxiety are preconditioned where the placebo effect is very, very stronger, first of all. Second, it's possible that there is a subgroup of patients that can benefit from cannabidiol. This is true but still is at their own risk because we still don't have a clinical studies that have proven that that cannabidiol can be good for some condition. Chronic pain, insomnia or anxiety.

MG: And so just finally, in the remaining seconds that we have, if somebody was considering taking it to deal with one of those those issues what would you say to them first?

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Here we speak about the medical cannabis. So when we speak about the medical cannabis, not recreational cannabis, our patients have to speak with... a doctor. It is very important. A medical cannabis can- cannot just be taken like that but must be taken with the help of a doctor, expert in cannabis and this kind of disease.

MG: Doctor will leave it there. This is fascinating. Thank you.

DR. GABRIELLA GOBBI: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Gabrielle Gobbi is a psychiatrist with McGill University Faculty of Medicine and the McGill University Health Centre. She was in Montreal. Have you been taking CBD oil? Have you found it to be of benefit if you're facing any number of conditions from chronic pain, to depression, insomnia? Let us know. You can reach us @TheCurrentCBC or at cbc.ca/thecurrent. CBC News is next and then the final instalment of the CBC original podcast Finding Cleo. Today police find a file full of details finally provide some answers to life in the days and weeks before Cleo died. You'll hear that coming up in just a moment. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo – Season 2, Episode 10

MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current. Finding Cleo is the story of a family's desperate search to find out what happened to their sister Cleo Semaganis, a Cree girl from Saskatchewan. They lost track of her after she was adopted by an American family in the 1970s. In today's final episode letters and interviews from the police investigation into Cleo's death by suicide. This is episode 10 of Finding Cleo: "Cleo's Letters."

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VOICE: County of Burlington Investigation Report. Crime: Sudden death. Date of crime: December 22nd, 1978. Victim: Cleopatra Madonia. At approximately 13:01 p.m.. The writer was dispatched to the wood stream development of the township. Upon arrival the writer was directed by a young white male, Louis Madonia, to an upstairs bedroom located on the north side of the house. The writer proceeded to the bedroom and found a young Oriental female lying on her back bleeding from the head wound. The writer checked for a pulse and signs of life but was unable to locate any like-signs. The writer noticed a revolver which appeared to be a 38 calibre lying on the floor under a chair in the north front corner of the room. A note was noticed on top of the bookcase.

[Sound: Radio turns on]

RADIO ANNOUNCER: WMMR... number of more.

[Music: "Who Are You" by The Who]

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Hi Lori! Guess what songs on the radio? "Who Are You." I don't believe it. Whenever I write you a note it comes on the radio. That's weird.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's the fall of 1978. The Who has just released a new album and Cleo Madonia is a 13-year-old living in Marlton, New Jersey. For the first time in our investigation, Cleo comes to life through her letters from the police report.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Hi Lori. Maybe you can come over this weekend. I'll have to ask my mom.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): She has the classic feathered hairstyle, braces on her top and bottom teeth and crushes on celebrities.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: What do you want for Christmas? Something under ten dollars, OK? Cuz I ain't rich. You could get me posters of Andy Gibb, or a 45 will do. OK?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): All of these letters are written to her best friend, a girl named Lori Montgomery. They go to the same school but live in opposite ends of town. So they write a lot of letters back and forth. She and Lori talk about typical teen things. Music, school, gossip and boys.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: You should see Tom's older brother, Mike. He is absolutely gorgeous and so built.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo lives with her mom her dad and her older brother in Woodstream, a new subdivision in town. Her family lives in a big two-storey, four bedroom house. Her room is upstairs. Maybe that's where she wrote this note to Lori.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: I love The Who but the drummer died of O.D.. I have to get all their albums.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The girls dream about starting a band. Leaving New Jersey and heading west.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: When we go to California we could still live on the shore but we'll have to get a lot of insurance on the house and our lives.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo was a child who fantasized about running away and living by the ocean. And oddly, one who also worried about having enough insurance. Cleo gets all A's and takes advanced maths. But while Lori and most of the other kids switch teachers every period, Cleo is in a special classroom. She stays in the same room all day with the same two teachers.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: This morning was so easy. We didn't do any work. All the teachers know I am pretty smart so if I don't get good grades they'll be on my ass.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Most of these letters aren't dated but it sounds like it's sometime in November 1978. The Grade 8 students in their school have just begun selling candy for a fundraiser to go on a field trip.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Hi Lori. I can't wait till we go on the trip. I hope you could go. Why aren't you selling candy? I am.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Compared to Cleo, Lori seems like a bit of a bad ass. She likes Alice Cooper, not Andy Gabb. She swears a lot and the only way she wants to take part in the school Candy Sale is to find a way to steal the money the kids are raising.

FEMALE VOICE AS LORI: We won't get caught though. Are you going to smoke pot in the bathroom?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Both girls write to each other about needing to protect themselves.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: High speed, I think when I come over I'm gonna bring a knife and if [bleep] tries to touch me I will cut them up.

FEMALE VOICE AS LORI: Hi Queen Co. I'm gonna get a gun to protect me from rape.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But it's hard to know how much is exaggeration or actual fear.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Tom says if [bleep] touches me he'll come over and kick his ass. Your friend forever, Queen Co.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): They come up with code names for each other. Cleo is "Queen Co" and Lori is "Speed." For 13-year-olds, Queen Co and Speed seem to talk a lot about getting high and partying.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Hi Speed. Remember on Halloween when the guy asked me for a chocolate bar while I was talking to him after I got off the bus? He said me and him should get stoned off our asses. I said we would but I ain't never gonna get stoned off my ass with him. My brother's birthday's today. He's 15 or 16. I'm not quite sure. He's an asshole.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Despite being annoyed at her brother, there's hardly a hint of any kind of inner turmoil in these letters except maybe this.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: [lyrically] Oh wild beautiful child. I see a wild...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo wrote a song about someone who doesn't know what he's doing and doesn't care where he's going.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: [lyrically] ...child. Don't you know what you're doing? Don't you care? Oh wild beautiful child.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: I saw Barry and he said hi. He is so, so cute. Do you think he's cute?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It seems Cleo has only just met this guy named Barry while selling candy for the school fundraiser. But she tells Lori that she already more-than likes him.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: I wish I could get out. I love Barry. He's so cute and nice. I wish I could party. I need to so, so bad. I hope Barry has some. I hope he does.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Two weekends before her death, Cleo and Lori come up with a plan for Friday night. She's going to tell her mom that they're going roller skating but really Cleo and Lori are going to meet up with Barry and party.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Your dad will pick us up and drop us off at Two Guys.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The plan is for Lori's dad to drop them off at a local department store in Marlton.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Barry will pick us up at about 7:30. He'll drive us to the skating rink about 11:00. I can't wait. I'm going to get so stoned. If he tries to do anything with you, tell him to get off and he'll leave you alone. He so, so nice. Gotta go. Bye. Your friend for life, Cleo.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But things don't work out as Cleo hopes. Her mom calls the skating rink to check in on her and finds out she isn't there.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Hi. How's it going? My mom said I was forbidden to hang around you. She can go to hell for all I care. You'll always be my best friend for life. I could pick my own friends.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It sounds like Cleo's parents don't approve of Lori but the letters don't say what they know about her relationship with Barry.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Guess whose birthday is coming up? Barry's. It's either Tuesday or Wednesday. He forgets how old he is. He says age isn't matter as long as you have fun. He's weird. Should I get him something? He is so cute and really nice.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo hasn't been writing about Barry for that long but things seem to be moving fast.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Barry said we can move in with him when we get older. He isn't going to get married because it'll be too hard to handle. So he is going to stay single like us.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It sounds like in the days leading up to her death, Cleo was going through a lot. Her friendship with Lori was in jeopardy. Things were getting serious with Barry and she wasn't getting along with her parents.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Remember you told me that if my mom loved me she wouldn't send me away? Well I guess she don't love me because she said she might send me to a home. Ask your mom if she'll adopt me. Just joking. I ain't gonna listen to her anymore. She could go to hell.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo fantasizes that when she grows up and becomes a mother things will be different.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: I am not going to get married. I'm going to adopt a girl who is about 12 or 13 years old.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's hard to tell but it seems like this next letter from Lori was written after the night at the roller skating rink and that Cleo confided something to Lori about her relationship with Barry.

FEMALE VOICE AS LORI: Hi Cleo. Remember what you told me about Barry? What you did with him? That's true, isn't it. I don't care. I was just saying that was all he wanted from you, if it's true. Is it true? Or is it bull***.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Speed, that stuff about Barry is true. I told Vicky it was true. Don't tell anyone.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo's letters seem to show a girl going through classic teen angst. On one hand she wants to be more grown up and dreams of running away with her best friend. But on the other hand she still sounds like a young girl who's excited about the holidays.

[Music: "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" by Bruce Springsteen]

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Did you ever hear Santa Claus Is Coming To Town? Did you hear Bruce Springsteen singing? It's good. I hear on WMLR.

[Music: "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" by Bruce Springsteen]

[Sound: police speaking on walkie-talkies]

MAN: December 22nd, 1978. Crime: Sudden death.

[Sound: police speaking on walkie-talkies and typewriter typing]

MAN: The room is tidy and there were no signs of any struggle. The young female was dressed in jeans, check top and socks. In addition to the body found in the bedroom, a note was noticed on top of the bookcase.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): This is the beginning of the police investigation into Cleo's death. In order to try to understand the note she wrote that day we need to hear first from the people she talked to. The people closest to her. The people she loved. Mrs. Madonia didn't want to do an interview with us, but to fully understand what happened the day Cleo died we need to include the details of her interview with police. Cleo's death was investigated by Detective Edward Brown.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: This is a statement of Leonora Madonia. Mrs. Madonia, what can you tell me in regards to the period of time prior to your daughter's death? You found her. What led to that?

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: The morning started as it usually does. We had breakfast together...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Mrs. MadonIa says Cleo was suspended for the last week of school. Her grandmother had been home with her for four days. But on the last day before the Christmas holiday, Cleo was home alone.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: She called me at 11:00 again. You know, it was the same thing. She was doing her maths and she was keeping herself busy and she knew that I would be coming home early. And somehow or other I called her. It might have been around eleven thirty. And there was no answer. And I thought that really strange. So I called Cleo back and there was still no answers so I thought that very strange.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Ok you said...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Although she knew her mother would be calling her to check in, Cleo wasn't picking up the phone. Was she at home? Mrs. Madonia's interview with police happened two weeks after Cleo died and she couldn't remember the exact time she last talked to Cleo. She thought it was at 11:00 a.m.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: And I'm sure she told me and I want to be absolutely sure but, I can't be absolutely sure that she'd spoken. That Miss. Musetti had called her to thank her for the Christmas gifts. And I'm almost sure she told me Miss. Musetti had spoken to her at that point.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Begin with what is your full name.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: My full name is Louise D. Musetti.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: And tell me the circumstances how she became a student of yours?

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: Well seems that Cleo was having trouble in holding down the other classrooms and there seems to have been a problem before she came to us. I think the week before she had run away because she was unhappy and wanted to go back to her home in Canada, and...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Miss. Musetti tells Detective Brown that when Cleo was in grade 7 she tried to run away back home to Saskatchewan. After that she was transferred to her classroom. It was a basic studies class with just 20 other students and two teachers, Miss. Musetti and Miss. Horn.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: And she did. She came and she was welcomed and she progressed beautifully.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: All right. Now you said Cleo was different. How do you mean different?

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: Well I think because of her heritage or background because she wasn't Caucasian like the rest of the children. And I think that, see, that the children can be cruel.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Now I understand Cleo was suspended recently from school. Can you give me the circumstances involving the suspension?

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: This has happened before. They brought those little aeroplane bottles in with liquor.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Miss. Musetti says Cleo was with some other girls who brought alcohol to school. They were caught and that's why she was suspended for the last week of classes before the Christmas break.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: And as far as the alcohol, as I said, Cleo I think went along with these girls. But I know Cleo was never under the influence of liquor in my classroom. Never. She was too, I mean, she was too bright and active. She went to class. She studied. How could you get hundreds and ninety fives and ninety eights?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Miss. Musetti says she and Cleo were close and that she talked to her on the day she died.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: Yes I did that morning. Of course, the children had a little party and a girl came in from another class and she handed me a gift and it was from Cleo. And of course I felt bad because Cleo was not there and I said well I'm gonna have to call her and I did. I called her that morning. I guess it was about, what, 11:30, 11:45? I called her before I left school for lunch and I thanked her for the gift and I told her that I loved her. And she said to me, 'Miss. Musetti I miss you so much.' And I said that, 'I miss you too.' And I said, 'But we'll see each other after the holidays,' and she said, 'Yes. I can't wait.' And I wished her a happy holiday and that was it.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did she give you any indication at all or sound depressed in any way?

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: Nothing. Nothing.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Detective Brown also asked Mrs. Madonia about Cleo's mood that morning.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: She didn't, you know, she didn't sound depressed. She sounded like... that morning at breakfast. We talked. I mean, she just like... normal reactions. Or- she did not sound silly and she didn't sound, you know, sad. It was, you know, just chat. General chit chat kind of thing.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Mrs. Madonia, do you have any idea why Cleo might do anything like this?

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: I- I don't know why she would have taken her own life. I know she might not have been happy. Recently she seemed to be having a little different pattern. Now that I think back, you know, not having breakfast when she just loved to eat. Now that I think back she was listening to like hard rock, what I would call hard rock. Most recently, she maybe wasn't quite as gabby, most recently. We went out Christmas shopping and she was helping the night before or Wednesday night. We wrapped Christmas gifts. I really don't know why.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): There's another person who says that she also talked to Cleo on the phone that day. Her other teacher, Miss. Horn.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. HORN: It was about 12:30, after the kids had gotten out of school at noon. I was a little late leaving the building myself and I wanted to make sure I called her to thank her for sending a Christmas gift to me.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): That is something that has stuck with me ever since I read this report. Cleo was suspended from school that whole week but she still managed to send both of her teachers a Christmas present.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. HORN: She answered the phone very quickly. Maybe two and a half rings. And I said, 'Cleo this is Miss. Horn and I want to thank you for your Christmas gift.' And I told her how nice it was to have remembered to send one for me. And I asked her how she was getting along. And she said, 'Yeah everything was fine.' And I wished her and her family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And I told her that we all missed her. And that we would see her in another week. And she said OK I'll be there.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): After she couldn't reach Cleo on the phone Mrs. Madonia left work and headed home. It's normally about a 10 minute drive. But that day it took much longer.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: I think I walked out soon after noon- soon after noontime. I got to my car and I drove down Church Road and my car just stalled.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Sometime between 12:15 and 12:30 Mrs. Madonia's car broke down. She walked to a nearby gas station for help.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: And the owner was there and I asked him, 'Would you please take a look?' And he said no he was busy. He had other people he'd get to it in maybe two or three hours. He couldn't promise anything. So I was getting a bit more, you know, anxious to get home. So I walked out of the Texaco Station and I went to a 7-Eleven next door and called my home again and there was no answer. So I called my secretary at the office and I asked her to please come, out pick me up. I told her where...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Mrs. Madonia's secretary came to pick her up and drove her home. When they pulled into her driveway she noticed her son Louis was outside.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: As we pulled up to my home I saw my son's jacket on the driveway and my son standing by the double doors. I can't remember what he was dressed in. And I walked rapidly in and I said, 'Where is Cleo?' And he said she's upstairs. And I looked and I realized the jacket was wet and I said, 'What's wrong with your jacket?' And he said Cleo threw it in the creek and I just got it back.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Louis, I think that you might have some information which could help in my investigation. To begin with, what's your full name?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Louis Anthony Madonia.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: And what is your age?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: My age is 15.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: What do you know about the time directly preceding your sister's death?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Okay. And well... I was coming home on the bus at about 12:30 and I saw her running behind the house next to Cooper High School on Green Tree Road in Cherry Hill.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Louis says it was around 12:30 when he was on the school bus on his way home and he saw Cleo out the window wearing his school jacket. He didn't know what she was doing or why she had it.

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: ...later. She came home without the jacket and I asked her where it was and she told me she didn't have it and she didn't. She wasn't wearing it or anything like that. So she had her books on the table and she just took the books and she went upstairs and then I went outside to look for the jacket. My jacket.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Louis says he found the jacket floating under the bridge in a creek not far from their house side.

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: And I went back inside and asked her why she threw it in the creek and she said because she knew she would get in trouble when my mom came home.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: So this was all that was said at that time?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Yes.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: You weren't the slightest bit aggravated with her?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Well I was a little bit aggravated with her but I didn't do anything to her because I figured that she would get in trouble anyways when my mom got home so-.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: All right. Louis, there was nothing else said other than that?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Right.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: And she just went upstairs?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Yeah well I- I was really thinking of punching her or something like that because I was really mad at her. She said I don't care if you punch me or not it doesn't matter.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: But you didn't touch her.

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: No.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: She didn't seem upset?

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: Not really. Went upstairs. That was it.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Louis tells Detective Brown that it was around 12:30 or quarter to 1 when Cleo went upstairs and he heard her rummaging around.

MALE VOICE AS LOUIS MADONIA: I just thought maybe she might be cleaning or something and then I heard the bang and I thought she probably was cleaning because she might have dropped something in my room or something, and I didn't think anything else of it. And then my mom came home and we both went upstairs then.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: And I walked rapidly in and I said, 'Where's Cleo?' And he said she's upstairs. And I looked and I realized the jacket was wet and I said, 'What- what's wrong with your jacket?' And he said, 'Cleo threw it in the creek and I just got it back.' So I remember walking upstairs and shouting, "Cleo! Cleo!" And Louis followed me up and went down to her room and I turned the door and there was no, you know, no sound. I opened the door and I quickly looked around and I didn't see Cleo. And I realized Cleo was on the floor. And I went to her and then turned her head. And I realized something had happened. I went back. And I remember saying, 'Louis please dial the police department.'

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo used her father's gun to end her life. Reading the police report, I can't help but think as I'm sure her family always thinks about all of the what ifs. What if her grandmother had stayed with her that morning? What if her mother's car hadn't stalled and she'd gotten home earlier like she planned? What if she didn't get caught with her brother's jacket? What if there wasn't a gun in the house? But I also wonder what if it was something else?

MG: We've been listening to Finding Cleo, the award-winning CBC original podcast by investigative reporter Connie Walker. If you've missed any episodes or you want to listen to the entire series you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. The conclusion of Episode 10 of Finding Cleo, coming up in just a moment. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current and today we're broadcasting the final episode of Finding Cleo, an investigative podcast by CBC reporter Connie Walker. Cleo Semaganis was adopted by an American family in the 1970s and her biological family lost track of her. It turns out that Cleo took her own life when she was just 13 years old. A police file documenting the investigation into her death finally gives her family more information about what her life was like before she died. Here now is the conclusion of Finding Cleo.

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MAN: The young girl was dressed in the following clothing. Plaid buttoned down front shirt, colour white and blue. A folded note was found under the victim's upper right leg. On this note was written "Queen Co." Located inside of the right sock was a folded yellow paper with three telephone numbers written in red ink on the note. These numbers were traced through cross reference telephone directory and found to be assigned to: number one, Arnold's Landscaping and Lawn Service; number two, K. Arnold Landscaping; number three, Jack Arnold. A torn note was found in the bathroom trash can. Upon piecing the fragments of white paper together it was revealed that this note was addressed to Barry.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Barry was the guy that Cleo talked about in her letters. Detective Brown seems interested in their relationship and asks Cleo's mother what she knew about Barry.

FEMALE VOICE AS MRS. MADONIA: He called one Saturday and I was home and I took the call and I asked him who he was and he didn't... he did not answer me. He just wanted to speak to Cleo. I wanted to know the nature of the call because I realized it was an older voice. It was not a 14-year-old boy or a 13-year-old boy calling. Later found out she- she was told that he had, you know, a truck and had been to Canada and he knew exactly where she came from and knew the area. Cleo came from North Battlefield, which is in Saskatchewan. And I thought that that would be almost incredible that he would know something about her background. And Cleo did have a desire to go back to Canada. We- we understood this. I, in the back of my mind, I knew this would happen someday.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): So Barry Arnold told Cleo he knew where she was from, that he had been to North Battlefield before. I can imagine for a girl who already tried to run away back to Saskatchewan, the idea that Barry had a truck and knew where she was from was exciting to Cleo. Mrs. Madonia wasn't the only adult in Cleo's life that was concerned about her relationship with Barry. Her teacher Miss. Musetti also talked to police about him.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: She did mention she had met a fellow who was, she said, 21.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): So Berry wasn't just a boy who was old enough to drive. He was a man.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: She said that she met him just selling candy. And I told her to be very careful. I said because, you know, what does... I said, 'What would a fellow that age be doing with you, Cleo? I mean really. Be careful. Remember, don't be getting into trouble.'

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: OK. And did you ever hear any more about him?

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: Yes. I was talking to one of my children in school. One of the eighth graders. And she said that this boy had introduced Cleo to acid and that he had had sex with her.

MAN: Lori Montgomery - 14 years on the above date and time - the above mentioned subject was brought into police headquarters by her mother. Lori denied knowing whether Cleo was using marijuana or narcotics. She said that they just wrote these notes. Lori stated that she knew BArry Arnold drove a black pickup truck, possibly a Ford, and that he was tall and had blonde, curly hair. Lori further stated that Cleo had told her that she and Barry had sex together and that Barry would give her anything she wanted.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): On January 11th, 1979, nearly three weeks after her death, Detective Brown interviewed Barry Arnold about Cleo.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Barry, I'm Detective Edward Brown of the Evesham Township Police Department. To begin with, what's your full name?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Barry Arnold.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: And what is your age?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: 24.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): 24. So Barry was actually eleven years older than Cleo.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: All right. Barry what, if anything, do you know about CleopatrA Madonia?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: OK. Well the only thing that I know about Cleo is that she killed herself and I met her from buying a candy bar off of her.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: You said you met Cleo when she was selling candy?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Yes. I was leaving my mother's house, getting into my truck to leave and three girls came up and asked me if I wanted to buy some candy bars and I said I really wasn't interested. They pleaded with me begged me, 'Please please,' you know, 'buy a candy bar.' They haven't been selling too many. So I look at what they had they ended up buying a candy bar.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Mrs. Madonna you told police that two days before Cleo died, Barry came to their house to see her. They only talked for a couple of minutes but that evening her father called Barry on the phone.

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: He wanted to know if I was dating his daughter or going out with his daughter. And I told him no, you know? But I didn't even know what he was talking about.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: How many calls did you receive that night?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Two.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: And were they both from the father?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Yes they were.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: But did he say stay away from his daughter?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: He said... He said he didn't like me going out with his daughter or something. And I told him I wasn't going I was his daughter so he had no worries.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did you ever meet her at a roller skating rink?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No I didn't.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did you ever have any intercourse with her?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No I didn't.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did you ever sell her any marijuana?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No. I didn't.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Or any other kind of drugs?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No sir.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: How about alcohol?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: You never have?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did Cleo ever tell you anything about herself?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Never had a conversation with her long enough to even find out anything about her. No.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Did you ever tell her anything about yourself?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Yeah. I told her I was a landscaper.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: How about your birthday?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Probably. I could have said something. I don't know, you know. I definitely, you know, when it's my birthday I get all excited about and I tell people, you know?

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Do you remember when this could have been? When you told her about your birthday?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Um... Would have had to have been with the candy bar sale because that was the longest time I ever talked to her.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): In his report, Detective Brown wrote that it was quote apparent that Arnold was not telling the truth during this interview. He constantly rubbed his hands together and refused to make eye contact.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: Barry is there anything else that you wish to add to the statement?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: No.

MALE VOICE AS DETECTIVE EDWARD BROWN: If we would schedule a polygraph in the future for you to take, would you be willing to take it?

MALE VOICE AS BARRY ARNOLD: Yes I would.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But Berry never took a polygraph for police. He cancelled on the advice of his lawyer. Cleo's note to Barry that was found in her bathroom trash can said,.

FEMALE VOICE AS CLEO: Barry. Hi. How are you? I'm really sorry about my dad calling you. I didn't tell him anything. He said that our friend...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo never finished that note to Barry. After reading about him in the police report we tried contacting Barry Arnold too. He still lives near Marlton. So we knock on his door. There's no answer. We try calling him again. We leave messages. Send an email and then a letter. But he never replied. We find out that years after Cleo died, Barry was charged with sexual interference of a minor. Not Cleo. He was 32 at the time. The girl was younger than 13. Barry had no prior criminal record so he was able to plead down to avoid jail time. The court documents we find say that Barry paid a 30 dollar violent crime penalty in five dollar instalments. Reading through this police report gives us incredible insight into what was going on in Cleo's life. The toxicology report said there was no trace of drugs or alcohol in Cleo system. There's also no mention in the file of Cleo having been sexually assaulted while hitchhiking so she likely wasn't the girl in that newspaper article we found at the library. Still, just 13-years-old, Cleo was somehow involved with a man more than ten years older than her. She was increasingly in trouble at home and at school, and that's not all. According to her teachers, Cleo was a child who longed to go home.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: I know that she was adopted by the Madonnas and that she was unhappy about having to leave her family in Canada. Her whole life it seemed was centred around getting back to her family. She said that some of the things that she did, some of the things that she did wrong in school she probably did because she wanted to hurt the Madonias because they had no right to take her away from the family who loved her, and that was from Cleo herself. I think she was very, very unhappy living in the United States. She was very worried about her family. Her original family. Her brothers and sisters, what happened to them, where they were, who adopted them. Were they okay?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): She hadn't seen them in over four years, but Cleo still worried about Johnny, Annette, April, Mark and Christine.

FEMALE VOICE AS MISS. MUSETTI: I was hugging her because she was upset about something and I said to her, 'Just keep calm.' And she said, 'No. The government had no right. The government had absolutely no right to let me go. They took me away from my family, from my sisters and brothers.' And she said...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo wanted more than anything to go home. There it is written in black and white on top of the desk and Cleo's room on the day she died. Police found a note written on yellow lined paper. It was short. It said, "I'm sorry. I love Miss. Musetti and Miss. Horn."

MAN: Due to all leads being exhausted in this matter along with the nature of the case with no question as to the death being that of a suicide, case is cleared and closed.

POLICE OFFICER: I just wanna come in, got a couple more minutes just in case, like we said, you have copies everything so just in case you want some pictures.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Thank you.

POLICE OFFICER: Are you done with those then?

CONNIE WALKER: Can we just have one more minute with them?

POLICE OFFICER: Sure. I'll be right back.

POLICE OFFICER: Thank you. Thank you.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Our time is up. We have to go.

CONNIE WALKER: You needed a minute?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: No, no I'm good. Thank you so much.

POLICE OFFICER: You're welcome.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Filled in those gaps.

POLICE OFFICER: Sorry for your loss. OK.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Cleo's always told me this. She told me that she wanted to get home.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We're quiet leaving the station. Christine has had enough of talking and needs some time to think.

CONNIE WALKER: Are you done? You want to take a break?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We go back to the hotel and right away I try to find out if Cleo's teachers or her friend Lori Montgomery are still in Marlton. We find out that Lori was killed in a car accident and Miss. Musetti has died too. But eventually I find Miss. Horn.

MISS. HORN: Oh Connie, this is not going to be a very pleasant conversation. Are you aware that Cleo committed suicide?

CONNIE WALKER: Yes. That- yes.

MISS. HORN: OK. She was one of my students and she was my one of my favourites.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh.

MISS. HORN: She was a wonderful little girl. I loved her.

CONNIE WALKER: You loved her?

MISS. HORN: Yes I did. What else can I- what can I tell you about her? [sniffles]

CONNIE WALKER: What was she like?

MISS. HORN: She was so sweet. She was very tall, very slender, beautiful dark chestnut hair, wonderful features. And she was so sweet, very kind, real shy, quiet, very quiet and very, very, very needy.

CONNIE WALKER: You say she was- she was needy. What do you mean by that?

MISS. HORN: Cleo was obviously adopted and she had tried to run away to Canada to find her biological family because she thought that she was taken away from a family that loved her. And she always tried to get back there and find them. Well, she tried to run away twice and she was, you know, brought back home both times and she just she- she just needed so much from the adults around her. And I don't think she was getting it from her mom and dad. And we kind of begged them, begged her parents take her back to Canada let her see the town that she grew up in, let her walk the street, let her meet some of her family if- if any of them are still, you know, unadopted and they were still up there or in the general vicinity of where she was a little girl. She always thought that she was taken away from a family that loved her. And the parents did not take her home. They refused to take her back to Canada. They wouldn't do it.

CONNIE WALKER: Did they say why?

MISS. HORN: I don't know. I don't know what their reasoning was, why they- they wouldn't take her back to Canada. But my teaching partner, Louise, and I kind of felt that Cleo needed to see where she grew up.

CONNIE WALKER: Why do you think Cleo took her own life?

MISS. HORN: Well to be perfectly honest, the last day before the break I called her on the phone from the school nurse's office. I remember the conversation completely and I thanked her for sending in a Christmas gift. I still have it. She sent me a little stuffed Snoopy and I have it in my guestroom right now as we speak. She sent me the present and I called her from the nurse's office and I said, 'Cleo, honey, everything will be fine. Just,' you know, 'have a quiet, restful vacation and you'll start fresh, a whole new slate, in January when everybody comes back to school. Everything will be good. Your suspension will be over and you start fresh and new and and everything will be fine.' And apparently a couple of hours later she tried to run away again. And she was... she was caught again. She had tried to pay some young man with a pickup truck to take her back to Canada. And later on after the whole thing had gone down they found her brother's jacket floating in a creek in Marlton, New Jersey, I think. Or somewhere close by. And then...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Miss Horne says she thinks that on the day Cleo died she tried to run away back to Canada and there's no mention of it in the police report. Could it be true? Why was Cleo wearing her brother's jacket in the parking lot of that nearby school? What was she doing there? Did she have a plan to try to get back to Saskatchewan that fell through? Is that why she did it? We may never know for sure.

MISS. HORN: Louise and I were called into the police station because Cleo left a suicide note. And the only thing it said was, "I'm sorry. I love Miss. Musetti and Miss. Horn." That's all the note said. And it kind of threw me. You know, I'm... I still have things of hers' [laughs]. As a matter of fact I- I had the kids bring into school an old shirt. A long sleeve shirt that they could wear while we were using paints and crayons and things like that and I still wear it Cleo's shirt. I still have that shirt. I still think of her. I adored her. And I just... I'm still so distraught whenever anybody brings up her name.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's been 40 years since she was interviewed by police about Cleo's death. But Miss. Horn's story has not changed.

MISS. HORN: Absolutely. She tried her darndest to get back to Canada to see her family. She did everything within her power to get back there. She was taken away against her mother's will, against her will and her brothers' and sisters'. I mean, they separated the whole family. You don't do that. You just don't do that. And she was- she was acting out! I mean look at the vodka that she brought into the into the school building. You know, she was she was acting out. She was crying for for somebody to pay attention to her. And when I talked to her on the phone she seemed like everything was gonna be okay. And something something happened between the morning in the afternoon that... at that point I have no idea how she- she went from the phone conversation with me to getting a hold of one of her father's guns. And it's always been an absolute mystery to me. You know, I know why she did it but I was just so shocked that she did it.

CONNIE WALKER: What would you want her family to know about her?

MISS. HORN: Oh boy... She was beautiful. She was just a lovely little girl. Lovely. I miss her. I do. Every time I put her shirt on to work around my house, I miss her.

CONNIE WALKER: I find it kind of surprising that you still have little mementos like the gifts that she gave you and the shirt. Why have you ke-

MISS. HORN: I've never been apart with them. I mean, I mean you don't go through 32 years of teaching and lose a little one like Cleo and not keep something around to remind you of her. She was a... To get a little girl for that. And she basically was, she was pushed into that, I think. I'll keep it forever.

CONNIE WALKER: Miss. Horn still regrets that she wasn't able to do more for Cleo. She still seems upset with the Madonias for not taking her back to Canada to visit. But Mrs. Madonia told me that she did try to connect Cleo with Johnny in Pennsylvania when she was having trouble. But that the adoption agency wouldn't help. How could any of them have known what was to come?

MISS. HORN: It was terrible at the time. There was- there was no resolution. There was no closure. You know, there was no full-circle for this little girl because there were too many dead ends there were too many questions.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Before we leave New Jersey, Christine wants to visit Cleo's grave.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: She didn't want to be here. She knew where home was. I know. I've always known it. I've always known that she knows where her home was and this was not her choice. For the last four decades and whatnot there was a big part of my life missing, right? An unknown. The unknown for me was my sister Cleo being out here somewhere on the planet and wondering where the people who loved her were why they didn't come to see her.

CONNIE WALKER: So how do you feel as you're about to do that?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Well she's probably happy. Like, I know she's always been a part of me and a part of us. But to know that, you know, to account for where she is and that we can come and visit her and then in the future. You know, I can make it, come bring my kids here. It's just completeness because she's not... unaccounted for. When you have a circle and there's a little piece missing it's just kinda... searching. But now that- now that I found... I don't have to wonder anymore. I don't have to look for her anymore. I don't have to worry about her.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine has brought the flowers from the night she was reunited with Johnny and leaves them a Cleo's grave. She has the answers she's always wanted. About her sister's life and death. But she can't help but think about what should have happened to Cleo. To their mother. And two generations of Indigenous kids who are still being separated from the people they love.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: And I think that the government should have left her with my grandmother, with extended family, and I have I believe that Native children have no place anywhere but in her Native home in a Native community. And I think my mother would have wanted us all to be together and find each other. Our mother had a hard life. We had a hard life because of her life. It just continued on and continued on. But generations of... trauma. But this is good because my kids will never have to wonder where she is. You know? They won't have to say, 'I have an aunt who's missing.' She's not missing anymore. You know? The thing that saddens me the most about this process was the value of a Canadian girl, Plains Cree girl, to the government. She had no value. Forget about her. They showed me repeatedly what her worth is. But she is invaluable to us. In life and in death. I think promise is a promise. I always keep my promises. So... Very happy. I know it doesn't look like I'm happy but I'm very happy. This is a good day. It's a good day today.

MG: And that's the conclusion of the CBC original podcast Finding Cleo hosted by CBC reporter Connie Walker. Fantastic stuff and excited to hear what Connie and her team do next. That will do it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One. Q is up next. Candace Bushnell, the woman behind Sex in the City will be on the program. She has a new book out called "Is There Still Sex in the City?" reflecting on dating in her 50s and what happens after happily ever after. Candace Bushnell will speak with Angeline Tetteh-Wayoe on Q, coming up in just a few moments time. My name is Matt Galloway. Have a great weekend and thanks for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

The Current Transcript for August 23, 2019

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Aug. 23, 2019 episode transcript

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