Protests in Hong Kong are a source of discord for families here in Canada, says activist

Guests: Ivy Li, Eric Ng, Ian Young

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[Sound: Large crowd of protesters chanting in Hong Kong]

MG: That's the sound of protesters inside the Yuen Long subway station in Hong Kong, yesterday. Despite a heavy police presence, the protest did not erupt into violence. Demonstrators also held a moment of silence to mark the one month anniversary since violent mobs attacked a peaceful protest at that same station.

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[Sound: Large crowd of protesters chanting in Calgary]

MG: Those are more sounds of unrest, but this time in Calgary. Pro-Hong Kong and pro-Beijing demonstrators getting right up into one another's faces. And police had to step in to calm the crowd in the city's Crescent Heights neighbourhood. Calgary, it turns out, is not the only city where tempers are flaring. Similar confrontations have also happened in Vancouver and Toronto. For some members of Canada's Hong Kong and Chinese diasporas the tension isn't limited to the streets. It's driving wedges between families and friends. Today we're going to hear from Canadians who suddenly find themselves in politically-charged opposition to the people they care about. Ivy Li and Eric Ng are both Hong Kong Canadians and they are both in our Vancouver studio. Hello to you both!

ERIC NG: Hello.

IVY LI: Hello. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us, both of you. Ivy, as you sit here in Canada and you watch what's unfolding - those confrontations between protesters and the Hong Kong government - just briefly, what goes through your mind?

IVY LI: Well I... First of all, I feel very sad about what happened to Hong Kong that such a beautiful and vibrant free society now is... their civil liberties being eroded very quickly. But on the other hand, I find I'm so proud of the Hong Kong citizens when I'm seeing like two million of them coming out. And despite all this threat and all the police brutality and they're worried about another tenement massacre may happen in Hong Kong. And still, like 1.7 million people came out just recently. And I'm just finding that their fighting spirit and their determination to protect their own civil liberties are just so amazing.

MG: Eric Ng, what do you make of the government's response to these protests in the last few months? Because this is something that has continued and is something where the response has been a varied one.

ERIC NG: I feel like the government didn't respond quickly enough. I think... they should [be] more decisive about what they want to do. I think they didn't make up their mind and that the protests get worse.

MG: So you would want the government to respond in a more forceful way?

ERIC NG: Basically I support the movement but I don't like what happening at the end. I really support... I think there is a beautiful thing happened in Hong Kong. But it's turned really ugly now.

MG: This is such a passionate issue and you can hear it in both of your voices. Ivy, I'm wondering... this is happening on the other side of the world, as I mentioned, but we're hearing of and we're seeing these protests unfolding here in Canada as well. What are the conversations that you're having with family members - maybe around the dinner table or on social media, what have you - about what's going on in Hong Kong? What are you talking to your family about?

IVY LI: Well actually with my siblings, we live in different cities and we basically avoided talking about it because-.

MG: You avoid talking about it?

IVY LI: Yeah. We avoid in order to not having two debates and arguments. So like, in WhatsApp groups within the family members we are just saying that, 'Well let's just talk about family business.'

MG: Why are you avoiding talking about it?

IVY LI: Because it's very, like well you said, it's... I feel very strongly the pro-Hong Kong democracy side. We feel very strongly about being very supportive of the movement. And then say one of my brothers is really supportive of the government's side, the Beijing side, and also they receive all the information watching it and always thinking that the protesters were very brutal in beating up the police. So obviously we are getting information from different sources. So the emotions and... we are not going to change each other's will. So to prevent any arguments we just saying that, 'Well, we'll avoid talking about it.'

MG: What does that mean in terms of the relationship with your siblings? This is a huge issue and you are connected with it but you can't talk about it. So what does that mean when it comes to the relationship that you have, for example, with your brother?

IVY LI: Well it definitely would... We know that we have different values. It make us... made it very clear that the personal value systems a very different. Like for example, I value a lot more on civil liberties and freedom and democratic rights. Whereas my brother value a lot more on social stability. But in a definition that which I think this is not true stability because you're talking about just making people behave at this moment.

MG: What would happen if you raised this issue? If you got into a conversation with him about this?

IVY LI: Oh I think that we both will get very heated. So- [laughs].

MG: So for family unity you just avoid the issue?

IVY LI: Well I just... we just saying that it's better not to since we are not going to be able to change each other and they will only have very, very strong, maybe emotional feeling about it. And we have business... family business to to deal with like [having] to take care of your parents. And those things would be more... immediately need to be dealt with, so. But [we] stay away from that so we can deal with the more immediate family issues.

MG: Eric, tell me a little bit about how you see this playing out. Your hairdresser.

ERIC NG: Yes.

MG: And you know that the hair salon is a number of things but it is, in many ways, a gathering place for people to come and talk about the issues of the day. What comes up in your salon? Are people talking about this?

ERIC NG: I'm a Canadian now. I learn not to talk about politics and religion.

MG: [laughs]

ERIC NG: Unless I know you are with my side. That's the only thing I would talk about.

MG: So unless somebody agrees with you, you're not going to raise the issue?

ERIC NG: Yeah, if I know you like liberal I will talk about liberal. That's all. For example, I'm liberal... So I've told you I believe what Ivy say because China's family is... close, but we are not that close. We sit down together. We talk about nothing. Many times. So, especially politics, I think you don't want argument because... For example, my family live in The States. They love Trump. OK. So when you sit in the family dinner table, what can you talk about? Trump. And I don't like Trump.

MG: So what would happen again, and same as with Ivy, what would happen if you raised this issue with with your clients, with your customers?

ERIC NG: They would lecture me! [laughs]

MG: They would lecture you?

ERIC NG: Yeah. Yeah. And I've been told... maybe they teasing me. Some people say, 'Well if you vote Conservative I will not come to you.'

MG: Do you think that Hong Kong Canadians should be speaking openly about this issue? Or how openly should they be speaking with this issue, Eric?

ERIC NG: Uh... You know I... You look at the political in Canada. How many Chinese people is active in the political... in Canada? And I think probably Chinese people, I think, maybe is how we're raised. We kind of learn our political is controlled by the government. We have only certain freedom of speaking, express ourselves. So we can't- maybe we raised that way because I raised in Hong Kong and so I learned British control me before, and now maybe China or Hong Kong people control me. There's only so much I will fight for my freedom.

MG: But given how, and I'll go back to Ivy in just a moment, but given how hot this issue is. I mean, we're seeing these protests, to Ivy's point, close to 2 million people out on the streets, concerns about how the Chinese government may respond to this. Isn't this the kind of issue that, in some ways, you feel like people should talk about?

ERIC NG: Yes, but you know... you asked about the question: how much China would give up on this issue? And I think you... are basically forcing China to do bigger, bigger force. I think there's only so much China will give up.

MG: Ivy, what does it say to you when people are so reluctant to speak openly about this issue? What does it say to you about what's really going on and what's at the root of this?

IVY LI: Well, I think that first of all we should speak up. I mean especially the Chinese community here and should speak up because we need to participate in our society, in a democratic society. We need to voice out what we think and then also to get more accurate information. And I also think that, like, the differences between me and my brothers, for example, besides the basic personal values there's also the difference in source of information. Say for example, he get lots of his information from Chinese media.

MG: Right.

IVY LI: Which is lots of disinformation there. And also, he got... and the peers. For example, my other sister who is support- very supportive about the Hong Kong pro-democracy movement - also in Canada, she live in Canada - and she went- she goes to a church which is much more supportive of the Hong Kong movement. Whereas my brother, he goes to a church that which is a lot more conservative and very pro-establishment. So I think it's very interesting in my family because it's not the differences, it's not a divide along the educational lines because we all have high educations, we all work professionally, but it's more... it's a lot along this source of information and the peer groups on top of the basic values. So I think it also beg another question is: how important it is we make sure that our media is giving not disinformation but actually giving more accurate and factual reporting.

MG: Just before I let you go, you and Eric are both sitting in the studio. You're in some ways on opposite sides of this. If there was one thing that you would say to Eric, just briefly, what would that be, Ivy?

IVY LI: I would say before we judge the Hong Kong situation we make sure that we actually get the information from multiple sources and make sure those information are credible so we have the actual facts and an objective analysis of exactly what's happening over there before we draw our conclusion. I think that is very important for a democratic society - it's an informed citizens. Yeah.

MG: Eric, what would you say to Ivy?

ERIC NG: I would say that I think based on what China... happening now in China, I don't think China would give up anything. And I think maybe China would, one day, would change. But I think it would take time for them to change.

MG: I have a feeling this conversation's going to continue between the two of you. Once we turn the microphones off and you walk out of the studio. It's good to have you both here. Thank you.

IVY LI: Thank you.

ERIC NG: Thank you.

MG: Eric Ng and Ivy Li, both Hong Kong Canadians, they were in our Vancouver studio. Those cracks that you heard about in the Hong Kong and Chinese diaspora communities aren't just along political lines, they're widening between different generations as well as different socio-economic and cultural groups. This is something that Ian Young has seen up close. He is the Vancouver correspondent with the South China Morning Post and he is also in Vancouver. Ian, hi.

IAN YOUNG: Hi Matt. How are you?

MG: What goes through your mind when you listen to Ivy and Eric talk to each other and talk, in many ways, at each other?

IAN YOUNG: Yeah, well I mean I think that's very, very familiar for a lot of people who are from the various Chinese communities here in Canada. I mean it's something that I hear too around my family's dinner table. So you know [laughs] it's very complicated and I think it sort of blows up people's understanding that there is a Chinese community in Canada and quite clearly there's a lot of Chinese communities in Canada.

MG: And speaks to the real reluctance that people have to raise. I mean again, to Eric's point, you don't talk about politics and religion and there might be seriously grounded reasons as to why people don't do that at the dinner table.

IAN YOUNG: Yeah that's true. But I don't think it's just necessarily a Chinese thing. I think that's probably one of the stereotypes that Chinese people are a non-political. But I mean, just look at the protests that have been happening. I mean quite clearly there's politics involved. You know, I mean it can get messy, I think, around the dinner table. And so, I mean, I'm not quite sure - especially when the stakes are so high. The stakes in politics when we're talking about what's going on in China and Hong Kong at this moment are inestimably higher than the stakes about similar arguments about, say, Canadian politics, you know. By and large, I mean, Canadian... but no matter what side you're on and you're supporting the democracy side in Canada aren't you?

MG: This is unfolding. Well it's not just at the dinner table. You're seeing this in Vancouver, on the streets of Vancouver as well.

IAN YOUNG: Oh yeah. I mean it's been quite heated.

MG: Describe what happened last Sunday? It was at a church. You went down and reported something at the Tenth Church.

IAN YOUNG: Yeah. This is something that happened just down the road from where I live, actually. There was a protest outside the Chinese consulate on Granville Street. And after that a handful of the protesters, the pro-Hong Kong protesters, headed down to a prayer meeting at a church in the suburbs in Mount Pleasant. And they were inside the church. And when they go to leave alone there's about 100 flag waving, Chinese flag waving protesters outside as well as about 20 police keeping order and guarding the door. And eventually the police have to escort the worshippers out of the... out of the church to safety. And I spoke to the organizer of that prayer meeting, the Christian organizer, and he was very very shaken up about this. He said he felt it was intimidation and that it was bullying by these people. So you know, I mean this is quite a dramatic event happening just had here on the streets of Vancouver.

MG: Who's involved in these protests? I mean if you take a look at the different demographics of the counter protests, who's involved?

IAN YOUNG: I mean I think there's a clear split in this case. I mean on one side you've got basically the Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong diaspora. And on the other side - at least among the protesters, among counter protesters - you're seeing a lot of mainland Chinese immigrants. And you know there is... there are divides within families as Eric and Ivy demonstrated in Hong Kong- in the Hong Kong communities. But I think on the streets what we've seen basically has been a big divide between between mainland Chinese immigrants and Hong Kong Chinese immigrants and their families.

MG: There's a generational divide? That's something that's been played up a little bit in some of the media.

IAN YOUNG: I think within the Hong Kong communities that's true. But I think that, you know, on the pro... I'm going to say the pro-China/pro-Beijing side I think you've seen all ages. I think we've seen an awful lot of very young pro-China protesters on that side as well. So it's not quite as simple as just saying well this is a young person old person thing.

MG: There's also - and this has happened in Vancouver but it happened in Toronto as well - these these luxury car convoys? Somebody described it as "The worst Fast and Furious movie ever." But what's been going on with that?

IAN YOUNG: Yeah. Well I think what that is, I mean we've seen these convoys of Ferraris with people waving Chinese flags, you know, revving up and down past the path of protesters. What that looks like is, you know, a statement of power. And for a lot of Chinese immigrants and a lot of Chinese communities, money is- money is power. And so when you see someone driving past in a Ferrari waving a flag that's kind of just an in-your-face way of saying, 'Well look who has the power. We have the power." And that's viewed as a way of intimidating, say, the pro-Hong Kong protesters who probably may not be turning up in Ferrari's. So you know it's a very interesting dynamic.

MG: Watching that here, as I say, on the other side of the world from where those huge protests are happening, what does that tell you about how those tensions are being felt here in Canada?

IAN YOUNG: Well I mean I think that it tells us quite clearly that there is not one Chinese community over here. There are multiple Chinese communities and... But it's also complicated. I mean we're happy here in Canada to cheer on the general prospect of democracy, but there's also other issues at play. I mean these tends towards nationalism and nativism that we see springing up around the world. I think this shows that that's not something that's just confined to the west and where we're comfortable, you know, looking down at what's happening in the United States and we're quite comfortable to be issuing judgments about that. But when that happens within a minority community - a big minority community but a minority community - that's actually quite confronting and that's quite discomforting for a lot of Canadians, I think.

MG: Are you concerned just finally that those tensions between those different communities may continue, they might be exacerbated as what's happening in Hong Kong continues to grow and grow?

IAN YOUNG: Well yeah. I mean, I don't even think what we're seeing here is an echo of what's happening in Hong Kong. I think it is the same thing. I mean to quite a large extent, you know, the communities here on the streets of Vancouver are the same communities as the ones in Hong Kong because we've got this big trend of transnationalism where people divide their times between between the origin places of mainland China and Vancouver, and Hong Kong and Vancouver. So you know these these are the same protests that are actually happening here on Canadian soil. So as it occurs in Hong Kong you can expect that it's going to be occurring here.

MG: And to your point, it puts a fine line under the idea that there is just one Chinese community here in Canada.

IAN YOUNG: Oh yeah. I mean that's a very lazy stereotype and it kind of blows up this idea that, you know, that it's a kindly idea that these are the communities we can only see through the prism of victimhood or as this high achieving model minority and the fact is they're just as complicated and messy as anything you see in the white Canadian community.

MG: We'll leave it there. Ian, thank you.

IAN YOUNG: Thanks man.

MG: Ian Young, Vancouver correspondent with the South China Morning Post. CBC News is next and then we continue with the CBC investigative podcast Finding Cleo. Episode 9 is next. My name is Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current.

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[Music: Theme]

Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo – Episode 9

MG: Hello I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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[Music: Theme]

MG: The CBC original podcast Finding Cleo tells the story of a family's desperate search to find out what happened to their sister Cleo Semaganis, a Cree girl from Saskatchewan, and they lost track of her after she was adopted by an American family in the 1970s. They thought she'd been killed trying to hitchhike back home from Arkansas. In today's episode host Connie Walker witnesses an emotional reunion between Cleo's sister Christine and brother Johnny who haven't seen each other in decades. And then Connie and Christine get a copy of Cleo's death certificate and learn troubling details about the final days before her death. Here is Episode 9 of Finding Cleo. This is "Reunion."

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CONNIE WALKER: So we have about... half an hour 'til we get to Johnny's place.

GPS: Turn left at the traffic light.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm in a van with Christine. We're on a highway in rural Pennsylvania. It's the middle of the afternoon in July but it's dark and grey outside and starting to rain.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you feeling?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Pretty good.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: That's good.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We've arranged for Christine to be here with us for the next few days to get to see Johnny for the first time since she was a baby. Christine believes that this reunion, this entire trip really, is meant to be.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Cleo has... She has come to in my dreams and I knew something was coming. You know today, all these things that have happened in the last week or the last few months, it's really a culmination of everything that I've been waiting for for many, many years.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But it's not only the reunion with her brother she's excited about. We're also going to take Christine to New Jersey to visit Cleo's grave, and once and for all to try to get the answers she's been searching for about her sister.

CONNIE WALKER: What does it mean to you that all of this is happening now?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I have attachment disorder and OCD and all that other, you know, these other challenges and so... what's happened with me is sometimes, I'm unable to express my emotions even though I'm feeling something on the inside. I think that's a survival thing.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's been months since we started this journey with Christine and Johnny. Along the way we're uncovering some difficult truths about their sister Cleo, about their mother Lillian, but also about their own childhoods.

CONNIE WALKER: What's it like to hear that and to learn that?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I know my mother wasn't perfect. I think our Creator gave my mother this range of children for a reason, right? I was given to her because I don't remember a lot. And then I wouldn't have that same... harshness towards my mother. I was always forgiving a patient with her. I think she needed me on some levels and that's why The Creator made me the way I am. You know like, the life I live now is is a direct result of the things that were taken away from me. With me and my siblings, the reason we're so important or I'm so drawn to my siblings is because we all have the same experience. And the same rejection and apprehension, isolation.

CONNIE WALKER: Right here. We're very close.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's just a few minutes later but by the time we step out of the car the rain has completely stopped.

[Sound: car door slam, farm animal sounds]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We're back at the farm where Johnny feels so comfortable. He's in his favourite spot by the barn waiting for his sister. We park in the driveway so Christine has to walk a little ways to get to the barn. As soon as she rounds the corner they see each other and a huge smile spreads across her face.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: She looks like my mom.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): She still has to walk up a small hill before she gets to hug her brother.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Been waiting long time.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Hey you.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hi.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: I saw you you were like six months old, I think. Hair's grey like mine, everything. It's good to see you. I'm glad you came now. Good to see you.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [sniffles]

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: You all right?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah... [sniffles]

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Must have been 40-something years?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: It's good to see you though.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: You look like Brad.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Do I? [laughs] That's good right?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yeah. Glad you came down. I was surprised that they were saying you'd come down...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine just keeps nodding her head as Johnny talks. She's staring up at him with this big smile on her face and tears in her eyes.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: That's awesome.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: [inaudible] ...can I get water?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh cool. Well hope you guys aren't late and long.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: No! I got some drinks and everything.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh cool.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Johnny and Christine have seen one another online many times. But in this face-to-face interaction they seem to recognize each other in a different way. Seeing each other in person has brought to life memories of other family members. They see the similarities and mannerisms that can only be explained by their DNA. The first thing Johnny said when he saw Christine is that she reminded him of their mother, Lillian.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Holy crap!

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: I know! I see pictures like of 'em and stuff. You all right?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [sniffles]

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Good to see you though.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: He looks like my son.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yeah.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [sniffles] Can we sit down somewhere?

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Sure. Can have a seat over here if you want.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine sits down on a large straw bale next to Johnny in the barn. Before we arrive Johnny's friends joined a few tables together to make one long line. They're covered in white tablecloths and fresh flowers. One of Johnny's friends hands Christine a napkin and she dabs at her eyes. I noticed Johnny's adoptive sister Erika is there too. I met her the last time we were here. She's recording the reunion on her phone and posting it to Johnny's Facebook page so that all of the Semaganis family back home can see this reunion.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Last I saw you you were like six months old I guess? [Indigenous phrase].

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: I was at that one group home we were at. That was a long time ago.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Mhmm.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: How old are you now, again?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: 46.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: 46... 45 years ago.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Mhmm!

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: A long time. You were born when Montreal won the Stanley Cup with Ken Dryden, Rookie of the Year.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh that's why I'm Montreal-Canadian, right?

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yeah that's what that is, yeah.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [laughs] That's awesome! That's awesome.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Well it's good to see you though.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Mhmm!

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Have my friends around here.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: That's awesome. Hi.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Good Moral support.

[Sound: microphone feedback]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm standing a bit further back with Johnny's friends watching this emotional scene unfold.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: This is Tom. Tom here is my, he's a... my farmer friend here. He's one of the-.

BRIAN: I'm Brian.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hi.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: That's Brian.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Nice to meet you.

TOM: I'm Tom.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hi Tom.

BOB: I'm Bob.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: This is Bob... I've known him for a while.

BOB: Known Johnny for a long time.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: You know? I got stuff on the grill I was gonna check out.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Okay cool.

ERICA: Yeah.

TOM: You hungry? Because we're gonna feast.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Things all right. I can put more on...

ERIKA: You guys are like two peas in a pod. I was like oh my gosh! Their like tone of voice is the same, their reactions are the same.

TOM: Yeah, hello.

ERIKA: That's so amazing!

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: You'd think we're related or something.

ERIKA: You'd think you're like brother and sister, it's so weird.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: I'm just hungry. I'm going to throw some of this stuff on the grill though...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The storm has passed and we even see a little rainbow in the sky. Johnny and Christine step outside the barn and walk toward the field. The light is beautiful. The sun is shining in casting a warm glow on their faces. It's the perfect time to document this moment.

[Sound: camera click]

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Here's the sun.

BOB: John, you're awesome you know you... you always have that quiet face.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yeah?

BOB: And every now and then you do smile.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Johnny has his arm around Christine. They seem awkward and familiar at the same time. I think about what separated them as children and the years of heartache they both endured after. Their shared quest to find Cleo has brought them together again. Today it feels like a hopeful new chapter has begun.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Turned out to be a nice day! See? Brought the nice weather with you.

BOB: That's because there's a great reunion.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yeah.

BOB: Right. There's a reason for it.

ERIKA: I know seriously that the rain stopped when you arrived [laughs]. It was just like the clouds...

BOB: Yeah it's pretty harsh before.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Bob Desmarais is one of Johnny's oldest friends in Lancaster.

BOB: Well I- I- I always knew him as "Chief." And for years I didn't even know what his name was because everybody just referred to him as Chief. But I remember from the beginning, he talked about Cleo. And just not knowing what had happened to her and how it just was always on his mind... from the very beginning. It's just so great to see the resolution to the mystery for him. It's been quite a journey for him and for his friends who've known him all those years- I mean you can tell I'm really choked up by it, but [sniffle]...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It seems like Johnny has such a strong support system of friends here in Lancaster.

BOB: It is just... It was just... We talked about all that has come out of what you guys have found and how freeing it has been for him, especially. And he and he said that to me one day. He said like, 'I can talk about clear in a different way. And I can not talk about it anymore.' So that- it's... for him has just been so life changing and so amazing.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): While we talk to Bob, Johnny goes back to the barbecue. Christine is sitting near him chatting with some of his friends. She's been emotional this whole time. But Johnny seems to be taking it all in stride. He looks calm and content.

BOB: Well he's not done processing this. I mean this is... it's decades. One of the things I thought was amazing was when you guys sent him the Facebook photo- or he- you sent him a photo of the gravestone and he put it on Facebook for the rest of us to see and... One of the sweetest things he said was, 'We can't fault that family. They loved her too.' You know? And that was so amazingly emotionally mature. [laughs] I was blown away by that. I'm like wow. Here's a man I've known all these years and I've known there depth to him. But that's a level... that's a level that many of us can't get to, that forgiveness.

[Sound: BBQ sizzling]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Johnny says dinner is ready... Everyone eats and visits and then it begins to get dark. The barbecue embers are fading. Most people have left. But Johnny and Christine are still talking inside the barn. It's only been a few hours but they already seem more comfortable with one another.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: It's awesome. I don't think- Like I said I was a bit nervous this morning but...

BOB: A little nervous? Come on.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: It still seems like I'm reading about someone else's life. I suppose...I turn the TV on and like, 'Oh I got an interesting life!'.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [laughs]

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Johnny and Christine say goodnight. Even though they're going to see one another again tomorrow it's hard for them to say goodbye.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: I'm glad came down. Love you too. I'm glad you came down.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: [sniffles] Thank you for the flowers. This is one of the happiest days of my life. Thank you. [sniffles] It's beautiful here.

JOHNNY SEMAGANIS: Yes it is.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): A couple of days later we drive Christine to Marlton, New Jersey where Cleo lived before she died. Christine is determined to get as much information about Cleo as she can. She's going to try to access Cleo's death certificate and we've already put in a request for her police file. Jill Slim, Cleo's childhood friend who we met at the funeral home has also agreed to meet with Christine and to talk to her about Cleo. We go back to the same busy diner where we met her before.

VOICE: Hi I'm Sam. I'll be your waitress this evening. Can I get you started off with some drinks?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): And this time she's okay with us recording it.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: So first of all I want to thank you for taking this time out to me.

JILL SLIM: Oh you're welcome. It's a privilege really. Like at first when I met these guys I was so... it was just very overwhelming. Very overwhelming. And I had much more time now just like to process everything. And so were you the baby?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine starts at the beginning and tells Jill about her long search for Cleo and all of the roadblocks she's had along the way.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: ...Because you know, government in Saskatchewan and government in New Jersey both told me that, you know, 'She's passed on, why does it matter?' It's kind of attitude.

JILL SLIM: That's not nice.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Jill pulls out a tattered white yearbook and sets it on the table in front of Christine. It's from Marlton Middle School in 1978 - the year Cleo died.

JILL SLIM: I'm sorry it's in terrible shape. I guess they showed you the picture that was in this. But this is the actual page of Cleo's memorial. I mean it's not much. It was an eighth grade yearbook put together by students, you know. I remember the beginning of the school year. She had just gotten a braces on so she refused to- she had the most gorgeous smile, and then she got braces and she absolutely refused to smile anymore. What's funny, she was... she was always covering her teeth up all the time. As I was too, I had braces, I did the same thing, you know. But she was really funny. Just really, really funny. And I also remember sitting around. We all just were sitting, discussing, 'How come you don't have pimples and we're all covered in pimples? Why is your skin so pretty and ours is not?' You know, we were all trying to figure that out...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The last time we talked to Jill she refused to tell us how Cleo had died. Now that we know the truth about what happened, I wonder if Jill knows anything else about the months and days before Cleo's death that could shed some light on why she took her own life.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you have any idea when you knew Cleo that she was going through a hard time herself?

JILL SLIM: No. I had no idea. Is Cleopatra the name that your parents gave to her.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

JILL SLIM: And then I guess...

CHRISTINE CAMERON: She was a fan of Elizabeth Taylor.

JILL SLIM: OK.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: She thought she was so beautiful in that movie.

JILL SLIM: I wish I could tell you more.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh you told me more than I expected.

JILL SLIM: I wish... I wish i could.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I feel a lot of peace knowing where she is. I know that my kids won't have to worry about unanswered questions. I still have some more questions but I'm pretty persistent and I'll get my questions answered. Yeah. So I feel. A sense of completion but I still like to tie up every single loose.

JILL SLIM: I'm sure!

CHRISTINE CAMERON: And if anything, you know, I'm really happy that Cleo will not be forgotten, that her story is told.

JILL SLIM: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): But this story isn't just about Cleo anymore. It's about her mother Lillian and all of her siblings. Johnny, Mark, April, Annette and Christine, and the collective toll that the Sixties Scoop has had on all of their lives.

CONNIE WALKER: I really appreciate you wanting to be a part of this.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Thank you so much.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: And thank you for giving me those answers.

CONNIE WALKER: It's a priviledge to help you out.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We say goodbye to Jill in the parking lot of the diner and watch her pull away.

CONNIE WALKER: So what was it like to talk to one of Cleo's friends?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: It was a lot more than I expected. It was nice to see a little glimpse of what a personality was like because that was, that's a big question you know? Like not only did my sister exist but what was she like, right? And it's a big comfort to know that she had friends that she was loved, and...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's dark in the parking lot. The only light is from a street light above us and the headlights from cars on the busy road behind us.

CONNIE WALKER: Was there anything surprising or shocking about what Jill told you?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: A little bit that. Well. Yes and no. Like, I know with my own issues and dealing with the separation whatnot, I was pretty quiet too right? I didn't let anybody know, right? I just handled that by myself because I was already physically by myself. You know, like being you know a different race and... being so different. So it didn't really surprise me that her friends did not know. So that was, that kind of made sense.

CONNIE WALKER: Like what she was going through? Or what would have lead her to taking her own life?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I know exactly what led to her taking her own life. Being isolated and having a memory of, you know, coming from somewhere and being unable to plug in or to fully accept the new life that was laid out before you, you know? And knowing that you came from somewhere else. And for her to deal with that kind of loss with no explanation and no choice and to lose her mother, you know. That's... Everybody loves their mother no matter if their mother was good or bad. Everybody loves their mother. Everybody loves her father. So. You know and I think the pain of her losses was just a little too much for a 13-year-old. You know, I can't imagine, so.

CONNIE WALKER: Was there anything comforting about what Jill told you about Cleo?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I feel I've got to know Cleo a little bit better as a person. Because it's one thing to know you have a sister but it's another thing to know that she was funny and tall and beautiful and had a great smile and, you know, that kind of thing. Cleo was a little bit more than just a little one inch picture on my wall now, right? She's somebody I love very much. And so. No... no amount of time change is that, right? It wasn't just me, it was all the people that knew her. My cousins, my grandmother, her friends. She was a lovely little girl. She still is.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I asked Christine if there are any questions about Cleo that she still wants answers to.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I want to know exactly what happened the day she died. I want to know who was in your life. Closer to the end. I want to know what she was showing me in her dreams.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you ever worry that finding all the answers might be too painful?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: There are things in this world that I wish I had not seen. There are... I don't think there's any horrific thing in this world that I have not experienced myself. And I think that I'm her sister because they know I'm relentless. And I won't stop until I get those answers. I have some answers but I want more.

CONNIE WALKER: So there's an option to try to get Cleo's death certificate. You said something you want to try-

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I'll get it. I'll get it. One way or another, like, this journey of these last few months, actually these last few years I think everything in my life has happened, you know, to prepare me for this and what's to come in the future. Right? And when I was 12-years-old, you know, hiding under my kitchen table in the dark, you know, I realized that nothing was going to save me from the abuse I was occurring- that was occurring to me at that time. I had reached a point that Cleo could not get past. So I thought no one's going to [voice cracks] help me. What do I do? [sniffle] No one's going to save me [sniffles] so I just decided you know what? Survive it. And then in the days to come there will come an opportunity where I can change things. And make things better. Nothing's going to kill me. So I know why she did that. I know why.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine wipes away her tears. Once again I'm at a loss for words. I know she's referring to sexual abuse she endured as a child. It's such a devastating revelation. I don't want to keep probing because these are obviously painful memories for Christine but she doesn't need any prompting. She's ready to share her truth.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: You know when I was 12 years old I came home from school one day and I hid underneath the kitchen. Locked the door, I pulled the curtains. I took the phone because you know it had a long cord at the wall and I was under my kitchen table and I knew that whatever was happening to me shouldn't have been happening to me. I knew it wasn't right. Nobody had to tell me that. So I was looking through the phonebook wondering who help me? So I found the Human Rights Commission. I didn't know who else to call. So I called the lady and I said, 'Something is happening to me that it shouldn't be happening. Could you save me?' And she gave me shit. The lady on the other end. 'So does your mother know you're calling?' I said no. She says, 'Well you hold are you?' And I told her I was twelve. She said, 'Well you shouldn't be calling. You're wasting my time. You need to talk to your mother.' And she hung up on me. And it was then that I just like had to think you know like is this going to kill me or do I just continue on and wait for better days?

MG: We've been listening to episode nine of Finding Cleo, the award-winning CBC original podcast by Connie Walker. If you've missed any episodes, perhaps you want to listen to the whole series, you can find it wherever you usually get your podcasts and we'll bring you more of Cleo's story in our next half hour. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

[BREAK]

MG: Hello I'm Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current. Over the summer months we have been bringing you some of the CBC's Best Original podcasts. This week we continue with Finding Cleo, an investigative series by CBC reporter Connie Walker, looking at the Semaganis family caught up in the Sixties Scoop. Here now is the conclusion of Episode 9 of finding Cleo. This is "Reunion."

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTINE CAMERON: And it was then that I just like had to think, you know, like is this going to kill me or do I just continue on and wait for better days? So I just decided that even though, as painful as it was, that I was just going to wait for better days. But it's a hopeless feeling to know that no one is going to save you. No one's going to help you. You have to do it yourself. You can't tell anybody because I was an expendable child. But then the Creator gave me a child. And more children. And whatever was taken from me, I took back. So everything that I went through, my kids will never suffer; Or my granddaughter. No- no child who comes after me will ever be lost again. So that's why I did this. [sniffles] So that's why I'm here.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I know I'm supposed to maintain my composure but I can't help it. I'm crying too. We all hug Christine in the parking lot and call it a night. I think again of what April and Annette told their parents. About the sexual abuse they experienced as children in foster care. And I think of Raven Sinclair. The woman we met who is studying Sixties Scoop survivors. Her research is still in the preliminary stages but she told us the majority of the adoptees she's interviewed were also sexually abused as children. I can't help but wonder, did Cleo go through this? Was there any truth to the story that her family heard about an assault while hitchhiking home to Saskatchewan. The next morning we head to the Evesham Police Department to see about our request to access Cleo's police file.

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: I can give you an update on where we're at. We do have to give it to the county. Because the way it was investigated we need approval from the prosecutor's office...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Lieutenant Rosenberg says that he needs approval from a county prosecutor before he can show us Cleo's file or even her death certificate.

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: Also spoke but the registrar upstairs. Even in New Jersey, unless it's a family member, I cannot release even a copy of the death certificate.

CONNIE WALKER: Even if it's not certified?

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: I called her back and I asked her yesterday specifically. And she said if it's a family member, yes. But if it's a non-family member...

CONNIE WALKER: What about if it's a biological family member?

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: And that's what- and that's what I said. Like brother, siblings? She's like "No, no no." She's like that's fine.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): So as Cleo's sister Christine can try to access Cleo's death certificate from the county and maybe even her police file. But before we go that route we want to try to talk to Cleo's adoptive family.

CONNIE WALKER: All right. OK. Let's go.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's been a few months since we were last here and met Mrs. Madonia. At the time she told us she was having major health issues. We've been trying to reach her again since we began planning this trip to see if she might want to meet with Christine or if she would do an interview with us. But she's never responded to our emails or phone calls. We try to reach Cleo's adoptive brother without any luck. We also try to get in touch through another relative and the library where Mrs. Madonia volunteers. We don't hear back from her. So again we knock on her door. But when we arrive Mrs. Madonia is not happy to see us. The people we contacted had let her know and she is upset and annoyed at us for trying so hard to reach her. She says she's nearly recovered from her illness but she's changed her mind. She feels we've invaded her privacy and is adamant she doesn't want to talk to us anymore.

[Sound: footsteps, car doors slamming]

CONNIE WALKER: Holy shit. I think we should leave.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We leave her house feeling terrible that we've caused her more grief and disappointed that she won't meet with Christine. But we respect her wishes not to be involved. We know Cleo took her own life. But Christine wants to know exactly what happened the day Cleo died. But without seeing the police file or talking to Mrs. Madonia I wonder if we'll be able to find out anymore. Is this as far as we can go in Cleo's story? We head to the township's Registrar's Office to see if Christine can get Cleo's death certificate. She's her biological sister but she doesn't have any documentation or proof of that. Will her word be enough?

CONNIE WALKER: 201 - so maybe in here.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Might be right here, actually.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We step into the room and walk up to a large counter. The clerk comes to see us right away And Christine has rehearsed what she wants to say.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hi. My name is Christine Cameron.

CLERK: Christine?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes. Hi. I'm here from North Bay, Ontario, Canada.

CLERK: OK.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I'm here to requeset workers and any information you may have regarding my sister Cleo.

CLERK: OK. She passed away?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes. In 1978.

CLERK: OK. Here. In Marlton?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes.

CLERK: OK. Do you have a driver's license?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes I do.

CLERK: OK. And I also need you to complete this information. You would just fill in her name here, date of death, her father's name and her mother's name, but her mother's maiden name.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Her mother's maiden name? I don't know what that is. I'm worried we're about to hit another bureaucratic brick wall.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah I wonder if it's biological or probably adopted name? What we think.

CLERK: Oh! I thought this name was familiar. Police department helped you out?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: Okay. Do you want to- do you want to write your mom's name in there as well? I don't know if that's at all... You could ask...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine hands the form back to the woman across the counter. She looks it over carefully but stops at the section about Cleo's mother.

CLERK: Oh. What's her maiden name?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I don't know her maiden name. I don't know how to spell it.

CLERK: OK. I'll... sort of help you.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: OK.

CLERK: You have to tell me and I'll tell you. Uhh... let me find it because it's an old certificate.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm not sure what Christine is going to say. I don't know her maiden name and I don't think she does either.

CLERK: Never mind. Because it's not... that they have that. Whoever gave the information didn't know the mother's name. OK. Why don't you have a seat. It's gonna take me a couple of minutes shrink it down.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Okay.

CLERK: Okay?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Sounds good.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm surprised it looks like even without that information about her adoptive family, or really any documentation showing they're biological sisters, Christine is going to get Cleo's death certificate. Personally.

CLERK: That's the death certificate.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CLERK: Here's your driver's licence. I'll put the receipt in here.

CONNIE WALKER: Let's go down the elevator.

[Sound: elevator ding]

CONNIE WALKER: So you- right now you're holding an envelope with Cleo's death certificate.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I knew I was going to get it. I knew this morning.

CONNIE WALKER: Are you nervous to read it? When do you- when are you going to read it?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh in the parking lot. Don't want to be too excited and then have somebody tackle me and take it away.

CONNIE WALKER: Are you worried about someone taking it away?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Sometimes.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The Registrar's Office is in the same building as the Police Department. As we pass through the lobby we see Marnie who is waiting for an update from Lieutenant Rosenberg about Cleo's police file.

MARNIE LUKE: He had the file in his hand the first time he came out.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Well that's-

CONNIE WALKER: How big is it?

MARNIE LUKE: It- it's thick. It's thick.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: OK.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine can't wait any longer to find out exactly how Cleo died. She opens the envelope with Cleo's death certificate.

CONNIE WALKER: What does it say?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Massive cerebral- acute massive cerebral haemorrhage. Self-inflicted. Cerebral laceration, gunshot wound of head.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Cleo died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on December 22nd, 1978 at her home in Marlton, New Jersey. We don't have much time to process this because Rosenberg is on his way out and Christine is still worried that someone might come and take the document away.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: OK. Can somebody run this up to the truck first?

MARNIE LUKE: OK sure I can take it out. Do you want me to take it out? Or you want... why don't you take it out? OK.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah run all of that out.

CONNIE WALKER: She's worried someone is going to take it away from her now.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yep. Run it out.

CONNIE WALKER: I guess we could sit down and wait for Rosenberg. Do you want to?

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): As soon as Marnie gets back, Rosenberg appears.

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: He hasn't got back to me yet.

VOICE: Now? OK. Yeah.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I'd really be appreciative of any information that you could share with me and my siblings.

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: I know. Once they give me the OK, you know, I have no problem releasing, it's just the law. I got to wait till the attorney gets back to us.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Rosenberg says they're still waiting for permission to release Cleo's police file. But in the meantime he's able to give us the names of two retired police officers who investigated her death.

MARNIE LUKE: Thanks so much. So Tom, that is-

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: Bresnan. And John Wainwright.

MARNIE LUKE: And do you think that there in Marlton? Cherry Hill?

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: I believe they're in Marlton.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Rosenberg says that when he spoke to the county prosecutor they were shocked that the file was even still in existence. It's their policy to destroy all files that are closed after five years. Cleo's file should have been shredded in 1983. He has no idea why they still have it. We head back to our van. And Christine starts to go over the death certificate in detail.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Immediate cause of death is acute massive cerebral haemorrhage. Due to a consequence of cerebral laceration. As a consequence of a gunshot wound to the head. No o- oh yes, an autopsy was performed.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's hard to believe this is where we would end up after hitting brick walls with governments in Saskatchewan in New Jersey. Christine is now holding a copy of Cleo's death certificate.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Is ruled a suicide, self-inflicted.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Although this is more information than she ever expected, it's not enough for Christine.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: So yes. I would like to get some information on her police file just to say that you know, just to affirm that she wanted to come home on several occasions. Right? I think it exists for a reason. I don't believe it's a coincidence that it still exists. I think there's some things that she wants us to know.

CONNIE WALKER: What was your reaction when he said they're usually destroyed after five years but they still have this one?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah I knew that they would have something right. Because even the last few weeks is not a series of coincidences. It's things that she wants us to know. I sometimes get this overwhelming feeling of just unshakable faith that everything is going to happen. And I don't need to worry.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): She only had a few minutes with Lieutenant Rosenberg but Christine feels hopeful after talking to him.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: 'Yes you're a police officer but there is humanity in you that wants to help us so just make it happen,' is basically what I was trying to tell him. So I think we'll hear from him at the latest tomorrow morning, but I'm thinking probably around 2 or 3 o'clock today.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you think he got that message from you?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Oh yeah. And if not from me then from Cleo. She shouldn't be forgotten or swept under the rug. This is why I fight so hard, so. I feel a lot of satisfaction today and there is more satisfaction to come.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We find the address for one of the officers that Lieutenant Rosenberg said worked on Cleo's case back in 1978. We have no idea if he's home or if he'll even remember her case but we decide it can't hurt to ask.

[Sound: doorbell]

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Hi.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hi! My name is Christine Cameron.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: OK.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I come I come to you from North Bay, Ontario, Canada. I'm here researching a story on my sister. My sister is a Cleo Madonia. She passed away in 1978. And I understand you're a respected member of the police force. And I was wondering if you would, if you could share any information with me?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: About what?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: About my sister's death and the events leading up to that death.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: And what was your sister's name again?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Cleo Madonia. She was a Native American girl.

CONNIE WALKER: Cleopatra was her full name.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah.

MARNIE LUKE: My name is-

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: How old was she when she died?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: 13.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: She died over it in the Woodstream section. She committed suicide.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It was almost 40 years ago. But this retired officer remembers Cleo.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Like I said, around 13-14 years old.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi.

JOAN WAINWRIGHT: Hi sweetie.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: This is my wife, Joan.

CONNIE WALKER: Hi Joan.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: And... and Cleo was in middle school at the time. And from what I understood she was kind of troubled. And I don't know if that was something that was from the school that she was being bullied or whatever but they didn't recognize bullying then or whether or not it was just you know she was just distraught over family situation but I think she was adopted.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yes.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Or, yeah. She was a foster child or something like that.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm surprised that Wainwright remembers so much about Cleo's case so quickly. But he tells us that he was one of the first officers on the scene at Cleo's house after they got the call.

CONNIE WALKER: What do you remember about that day?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: I believe that it was like a... put it then like when school's out, it was middle of the day.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: That that rings a bell. And- and I do remember... I believe she- she used a firearm to take her own life.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Yeah she did. Yeah. I do have her death certificate.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: But if you go to the- have you been the Evesham PD?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah. Lieutenant Rosenberg...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We explained to him that we've been to the police department. And Lieutenant Rosenberg is still working on getting us permission. I wonder again why Cleo's file is so thick if they knew right away it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

CONNIE WALKER: Would there like- would there be much in the file if if it was a suicide?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Well yeah there might be. There would be the initial report...

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Was she found at home?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Yes. She was found up in her room. Because I know I was the supervisor that day so if I wrote the report, I mean, I would make it as detailed as possible.

CONNIE WALKER: What would you have been investigating it at that point if she had been found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Well we would- we would first find out, you know, is it really a suicide or was it foul play involved? You know, it would tell you whether or not she was a... she had killed herself with a firearm, whether someone else-

MARNIE LUKE: Is that what an autopsy shows?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. The autopsy could tell that.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you remember what Cleo's autopsy said?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: No I don't. I- like I said...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We tell him what her family believed about Cleo's death and about the article we found in the paper the last time we were here.

CONNIE WALKER: I don't know if this rings a bell at all but about three weeks before Cleo died a teenager from Cherry Hill was hitchhiking on the road and she was picked up by somebody and sexually assaulted but not killed. She was- she survived.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: She I don't- I don't recall that.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: We were told that she was raped and murdered in Arkansas. So we were looking in the wrong state.

CONNIE WALKER: And that she had been hitchhiking and that she had been sexually assaulted.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: I don't remember that one.

CONNIE WALKER: Because Detective Rosenberg kind of indicated that there were some similarities between what Christine had heard about how her sister died and what was in the file but he didn't...

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: Well you know, those are all underlying facts. I mean if in fact she was molested or assaulted or sexually abused by someone else and this was playing on her mind and this is what caused her to take her own life. I'm sure that in the report somewhere is, either from the county or from what our detectives found out, would have been you know in the report.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Talking to Wainwright and hearing his memories of the day Cleo died only makes me want to read that police report even more.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you remember if she was a victim of sexual violence?

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: No I don't. And the reason I remember her is because her name, Cleo. Very- I mean it's not a common name.

CONNIE WALKER: Do you have any... Did- do you remember having any suspicion that it wasn't self-inflicted or that there was-

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: No only because she was a middle school kid and the initial information was that that she was having some, some I guess some thoughts about either because she was adopted, well you know, she was probably having some real severe psychological issues either about being adopted or not being able to find her birth parents and things like that.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Half of my siblings are really grateful for you taking this opportunity and sharing with me. I really, really appreciate it.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: I'm glad I could shed some light on it.

CONNIE WALKER: All right.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: We are. Piece by piece.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you so much. Thank you Joan.

JOHN WAINWRIGHT: All right.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We leave Wainwright's house and head back to the van. Marnie is waiting with some news.

MARNIE LUKE: Literally as you were walking into his house I got an e-mail from Lieutenant Rosenberg saying between 2:00 and 3:00 what is saying we have authorization to go and look at the file right now.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh my God.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I told you...because I knew I had the idea that oh we're on the step that he would call while we were there.

MARNIE LUKE: Yeah just as you were walking in I got the message from him and he's there for the next hour and he said we can come in person and look at them and he'll give us copies.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Remember though I told you between 2:00 and 3:00.

CONNIE WALKER: You did. I do remember you said that.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Christine has been adamant all along that Cleo was the one who started her on this journey. The one who visits her in her dreams and wants her to find the answers. She feels this isn't just another coincidence but really part of Cleo's plan.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: OK we better hurry up.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We're on our way to see the police file into Cleo's death. What would it say? Would it tell us what was going on in her life? After months on this investigation searching for answers and being so invested in the life of a little girl I never knew, I'm almost afraid to find out what's in that report. What would it tell us about the day Cleo died? What would it tell us about the weeks leading up to her death? It's only a few minutes before we're back at the police station.

MARNIE LUKE: Are you not worried about seeing something you know-

CHRISTINE CAMERON: No there's nothing that can surprise me.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We head inside the police station and another officer, Lieutenant Freel, is waiting for us.

LIEUTENANT FREEL: Hello.

CONNIE WALKER: How are you?

LIEUTENANT FREEL: Come on.

CONNIE WALKER: Good. I'll follow you, Christine.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Friel leads us past a locked door and into a small windowless room.

LIEUTENANT FREEL: I have paperwork for you. This is yours.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): He hands me a stack of documents about half an inch thick. This looks like the typewritten police report we've been hoping to see.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): I'm holding the file but my eyes are on another smaller stack of papers still in his hands. They look handwritten.

LIEUTENANT FREEL: This is the originals. What are you looking for here? I was given this. There's copies of all of them.

CONNIE WALKER: I think...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): The paper looks yellowed and faded. Is that Cleo's handwriting?

CONNIE WALKER: What are these are these? Are these letters that she wrote?

LIEUTENANT FREEL: Lieutenant Rosenberg, would you be of assistance - where these letters have come from?

LIEUTENANT ROSENBERG: These are notes that, what I read, they are from classmates. She had written friends in school that they were aware of a lot of what was going on. That's what the scene is - basically just amongst friends, classmates at the time.

CONNIE WALKER: OK. Are you ready to read some of these? Can you read them out loud?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Hey Speed! Hi! Making...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): We sit down at the table and Christine starts reading some of the letters.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I'm about to come over on Saturday...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): They're hard to understand. The writing is a little faded in spots and the handwriting is messy but this is Cleo.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: My brother's birthday is today. He's 15 or 16. I'm not quite sure. He's an asshole. I will help you...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): She wrote these letters in the police report. Somehow almost miraculously this file still exists and 40 years later Cleo's baby sister is sitting in a police station hearing directly from her.

CHRISTINE CAMERON: On Saturday let's go to the mall. Do you want to? Let's go see you up in smoke. I saw Barry and I said hi. He is so so so cute. He's cute. My grandmother's in the hospital. She has to get an operation...

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It's so strange to be here with Christine. Reading letters Cleo and her friend wrote to one another. There's one dated December 10th. Just 12 days before she died.

CONNIE WALKER: Why does it say Bar- Barry is underlined. "I love Barry" it's all underlined. Who's Barry?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: I'm just skimming through them.

MARNIE LUKE: Oh I see it. It says... "Heavens to Lori"?

CHRISTINE CAMERON: Lori.

MARNIE LUKE: Doesn't say in the code sheet who Speed is?

CONNIE WALKER: No.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): Who's Lori? And Speed?

MARNIE LUKE: It says something about my mom says I shall forbid me to see you.

CONNIE WALKER: She says I'm going to go have a gun to protect me from rape.

CONNIE WALKER (NARRATOR): It feels like we're looking at a picture of Cleo's life in New Jersey. Through a foggy glass. And the more we read the clearer it becomes. By the end of the report we know the answers to the questions that Christine has been searching for. We know what happened. In the weeks days and even minutes before Cleo took her own life.

MG: That's the conclusion of Episode 9 of the CBC original podcast Finding Cleo hosted by CBC reporter Connie Walker. Cleo's story continues tomorrow on the Summer Edition of The Current. And that will do it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. Fab Five Freddy, Hip-hop legend, is going to be on the program, that's coming up in just a moment. You know it's hard to know what to think of U.S. President Donald Trump's recent spat with Denmark over Greenland. The Danish Prime Minister Mr. Fredrickson called Trump's offer to buy the resource-rich island which is an autonomous protectorate of Denmark, quote "absurd." The President responded by cancelling a state visit to Denmark saying the Prime Minister's comment was in his words "nasty." It turns out that coveting Greenland's natural bounty is nothing new. There is an old English folk song called Greenland Whale Fisheries and the title kind of says it all. From their 1984 debut album Red Roses For Me, here are The Pogues. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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[Music: Greenland Whale Fisheries by The Pogues]

The Current Transcript for August 22, 2019

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Aug. 22, 2019 episode transcript

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