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The Current Transcript for August 15, 2018

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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For me like, for an Asian American, you know trying to get a job it's not a stereotypical role like: the nerdy, or the geek, or the sidekick or anything like that. Minho is kind of a badass kind of guy. And he is really athletic.

LAURA LYNCH: And that's why actor Ki Hong Lee likes playing Minho in The Maze Runner. Today though, movie fans will be able to see the first Hollywood film with an all Asian cast in 25 years; Crazy Rich Asians is opening to favorable reviews and high expectations for those pushing to see more diversity on screen. We're talking about that first up this morning. And then, we head to outer space.

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The chances of us finding little Martian folks who are going to say hello to us and feed us and all that kind of stuff. That isn't going to happen. But the chances of encountering something primitive that could be a little bit more dangerous to us is appreciable.

LL: Astronaut Michael Barratt is talking not about aliens but about alien organisms; species of some sort that might return to wreak havoc on Earth. But those who consider the implications of space travel are now also concerned about what Earthlings might leave behind on their travels contaminating outer worlds. That's why you'll hear about the need for industrial sized q-tips in half an hour. After that...

SOUNDCLIP

The mission was simple; to derail a train over a bridge so that the train would fall into as little water as possible in an effort to make sure that everyone on board the train died.

LL: He's a member of a very small club; FBI undercover agents who are Muslim, who speak Arabic, and who are willing to try to infiltrate suspected terrorist groups. Tamer Elnoury though is coming out of the shadows to tell his story; a story that sees him emerge as the agent who befriends two men in Canada who plotted to kill hundreds in the name of Islam with a VIA passenger train. We'll hear his views on the case and his job in an hour. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the summer edition of The Current.

Crazy Rich Asians criticized for Chinese-centric 'colourism'

Guests: Albert M. Chan, Rebecca Sun, Mallory Yu

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The Nick you're dating is Nick Young?

VOICE 2: Yeah, you guys know them or something?

VOICE 3: Hells yeah. They're just the biggest developers in all of Singapore.

VOICE 4: Damn Rachel it's like The Asian Bachelor. [Music]

VOICE 5: These people aren't just rich, they are crazy rich.

VOICE 6: You really should have told me they you are like the Prince William of Asia.

VOICE 7: That's ridiculous; much more of a Harry.

LL: It is a film that's receiving great reviews but it's also causing a stir for another reason. Crazy Rich Asians hits theaters today; the romantic-comedy about an Asian American woman shocked to discover the wealth of her fiancé’s family in Singapore is based on the best-selling book by Kevin Kwan and it premieres as part of an industry that has been slow to change despite movements like Oscars So White. In 2016 just 6% of the top 100 films had Asian characters. Many say the makeup of this movie's cast is ground breaking; it is composed almost entirely of Asian actors or actors of Asian descent. Here is what Crazy Rich Asians director Jon M. Chu had to say.

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JON M. CHU: I remember growing up as a kid and not seeing a lot of people on the big screen or even behind the screen that looked like me. So it was always a hope and a dream to make it there but knowing that it was a slim chance.

LL: You can hear more from Jon M. Chu after The Current when he will be a guest on q. But first to talk about what this film means for the representation and portrayal of Asians on screen, we've convened a panel of three people with an interest in how Crazy Rich Asians does in North American theaters. Albert M. Chan is a Chinese Canadian actor and filmmaker. He is in our New York studio. Rebecca Sun is a senior reporter with The Hollywood Reporter. She is in Los Angeles. And Mallory Yu is a producer and movies editor for NPR's All Things Considered. She's in Washington D.C. Hello to you all.

MALLORY YU: Hi.

ALBERT M. CHAN: Hi.

REBECCA SUN: Morning.

LL: Oh gosh you're all here so early. Thank you. Rebecca Sun let's start with you. You've already seen Crazy Rich Asians what did you think?

REBECCA SUN: It honestly holds up to the hype. You know it is first and foremost a beautifully done rom-com which is something that Hollywood isn't really making anymore. We're talking about actual studio rom-coms and not just indie movies. It's beautifully done. It's funny, but also very emotionally authentic. And yeah, you can't escape the fact that it's entirely unique; you know a quarter century without seeing faces like this onscreen.

LL: And does that touch you personally?

REBECCA SUN: It does. You know I'm Asian. I'm Asian American. I'm born and raised in this country my entire life. And you get used to learning to identify with whatever protagonist you're given and so I've always grown up being able to identify with you know plucky white females and you get used to it. But the phenomenon of watching a story that so closely mirrors your own where you know the heroine's mother looks and talks like your own mother. It was like seeing your face in the mirror for the first time; you're sort of like what is this? It's so familiar and yet new.

LL: Mallory you as a film critic, can you give us your quick review of the movie?

MALLORY YU: Sure. I mean like Rebecca said I thought the movie was an example of a really good rom-com. You can tell that Jon M. Chu the director has so much affection for the material he's working with, but also for his actors, for Singapore. I mean everything and everyone in this film is shot to look as good as possible. And I thought Awkwafina was a standout in this. She's had quite the summer, between the Ocean's 8 and this movie and I hope this means we get to see more of her. And her fellow actors Gemma Chan, you know obviously Michelle Yeoh. The film isn't perfect but it's a lot of fun and I hope people go and see it.

LL: Okay I don't want to be too picky about things because it is receiving a lot of accolades but you did see flaws, what are they?

MALLORY YU: I mean I thought it sort of falls prey to some conventional Hollywood standards of beauty. Everyone in this is thin and beautiful, or muscular and beautiful, except for kind of the more buffoonish characters who tended to be shorter and chubbier and I could have done without some of those notes. And you know there has been a lot of criticism of the colourism in this film. And that criticism isn't without its merits but I think it should also be possible to enjoy Crazy Rich Asians while also being critical.

LL: What do you mean by colourism?

MALLORY YU: So there has just kind of been this criticism that it focuses on East Asians specifically Chinese people; that it ignores sort of the socioeconomic and racial disparities that are present in Singapore between Chinese and Indigenous people. And I think that has some merit. You know this film does focus on a very specific family and a very specific set of people. But you know Henry Golding is half Malay, and you know Nico Santos who plays Oliver is Filipino. You know there are actors; brown Asian actors who are in this film too.

LL: Okay. Albert M. Chan how did you first hear about this movie?

ALBERT M. CHAN: I first came across this movie when I saw the world wide casting call that Jon M. Chu put out. And I thought wow! What is this? There really is a Hollywood movie that has a big budget that is going to star an entire cast of Asian Americans or Asian people in general? And so it was just the talk of all of my Asian American circles and everyone was submitting tapes to this; not really knowing exactly what it was but knowing that it was going to be something exciting and something big.

LL: And you auditioned? You sent in a tape I trust?

ALBERT M. CHAN: I actually did not. [Laughs] Because I looked at the breakdowns and you know the role that Henry Golding plays is you know tall, dark, and handsome and that's not me. I'm more of the geeky tech type.

LL: Okay for you then what is it like auditioning for movie and TV roles as an actor of Chinese background?

ALBERT M. CHAN: Well, being an emerging actor you know you're basically pegged as a certain type. And like I said you know I'm the white collar professional: the doctor, the dentist. And that's okay to me because you know we all have to start somewhere. But within the confines of how the industry sees you there's still a lot of opportunity to really create very human characters that you know people of all races can identify with. And that's sort of my goal.

LL: Did you feel stereotyped?

ALBERT M. CHAN: In a way yes, but you know that's the way I present myself too. Because my background I actually went to MIT and got a PhD in electrical engineering and so.

LL: Oh really? Okay. So this is your fallback profession?

ALBERT M. CHAN: Well I'm working both at the same time. [Laughs]

LL: Okay well Rebecca Sun in terms of the Asian American community, how are you seeing them come together around this movie? Is there sort of a rallying effect?

REBECCA SUN: Oh there absolutely is. You know what has been so exciting is to see a community form around this cultural moment for the first time. And the reason it's the first time is partially because we just haven't had such an opportunity to do so. But you know there is a movement called #GoldOpen that you might see that hashtag on social media today where you know Asian American influencers have partnered with real life Crazy Rich Asians, in other words you know the tech titans who you may not know their names but you know are incredibly powerful and well resourced, to buy out theaters you know. And there are screenings all around the country that you can kind of go online just search for #GoldOpen to see if you really can't afford a ticket they've bought out theaters. But then I've also just seen individual Asian Americans get on Twitter, the stand-up comedian Joel Kim Booster was like you know what if you're honour system but if you're a crazy broke Asian and you really want to see this movie but you can't afford it DM me, I'll buy you a ticket to wherever you want to go. And there are others; there is TV writer Teresa Hsiao and other people who've just been moved to support this community and to support this movie even though they're not personally connected to it at all.

LL: Now there have been calls for greater diversity in Hollywood for some time and there have been recent TV shows such as Fresh Off The Boat or here in Canada Kim's Convenience that are really taking off. Why, Mallory Yu, is this movie in particular seen as such a watershed moment do you think?

MALLORY YU: I think because it has such a backing. I mean this is a major Hollywood studio. It has marketing dollars. I mean it has billboards and posters and I think that's really what sets it apart from some of the smaller indie films that featuring all Asian cast that have come out know between The Joy Luck Club and now. But this film really has, you can tell that Hollywood is really thinking that this movie is going to do well and it's going to do well because it has such support on social media. Online. I mean I was talking to my dad the other day, and he's a man who doesn't like going to movie theaters or rom-coms, and he was like I'm so excited for this movie; we have to support it because we need Hollywood to know that we're going to come out to see these films.

LL: Albert M. Chan what do you think? Why is this so important?

ALBERT M. CHAN: Well I think you know growing up in Canada, I think Canada has always been very progressive and I remember in the 90s Mina Shum's Double Happiness and Sandra Oh winning the Best Actress Genie. But in the U.S. you know Asian big budget movies in Hollywood are few and far between. And just the fact that Hollywood is starting to see a potential source of revenue in Asian American audiences is very exciting because once that door is opened and they see that you know there is a market there, I think you'll start to see in the next one or two years other projects that will try to emulate that success.

LL: Now at the same time not everyone is applauding the film. We spoke with E.J. David who is a Filipino American psychology professor at the University of Alaska in Anchorage. He doesn't agree that Crazy Rich Asians deserve all the hype. Here's some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

E.J. DAVID: There are two things I have a difficult time ignoring. One, the movie itself is just about East Asians who are ridiculously rich so not only does it glamorize material wealth it glamorizes material wealth that is a product of exploiting brown Asians while rendering brown Asians invisible. So as a Filipino person I can't look past that. The other part is the overhype about the movie. One, it is not the first major studio movie since The Joy Luck Club, which is the common narrative right now, with a majority of an all Asian cast. There are many others but for some reason they are not acknowledged as Asian because they are movies with brown Asians in it. So again Crazy Rich Asians is just a reflection of a much bigger issue of how brown Asians are forgotten, disregarded, and marginalized even among Asians.

LL: Now we've heard some of that critique discussed here already but Rebecca Sun what do you think of what he had to say?

REBECCA SUN: I'm sympathetic to what the professor is saying but I think what he's critiquing it's not the film, the true target of this critique is our inequitable system. You know it's impossible for any one film to represent all of the diasporas experience and so you know by necessity good stories are specific. You know I was talking to Kumail Nanjiani last year about The Big Sick and he got a lot of criticism from Pakistani Americans who said you know what your experience is not mine, why doesn't it represent what my experience is like? And the truth of the matter is you simply can't. You have to tell your story. And yes like Mallory alluded you know with Singapore, within Singapore there are a lot of unique cultural and ethnic inequities that you know are quite justified if you're talking about you know the type of cultural content that Singapore itself is putting out, but this is a film made by Asian Americans. It's hard to say. Like you know I do care deeply about the inequities that the professor is talking about but this is just not the film about that. Also I do want to note that I think that most responsible people have been saying that this is the first studio film in 25 years to feature an all Westernized Asian cast. And so we're not ignoring the existence of you know The Namesake starring Kal Penn or you know like I mentioned The Big Sick which was an independent movie. You know Harold and Kumar. You know things like that that have featured South Asians but his point is taken.

LL: Mallory Yu how much then is riding on this movie to open doors for other Asian led films being greenlit by studio executives or is that simply too much weight to put on a summer rom-com?

MALLORY YU: You know I think this is a film, if Crazy Rich Asians is going to do anything it's one of those films that's going to show Hollywood that films led by Asian Americans or actors of Asian descent are marketable and profitable. It's going to hopefully, what I hope, it's going to bust open the door for more of those projects. You know I really want to see like biopics of Asian American activists throughout history. I mean I think that would be really cool. And I don't think these projects should hang solely on Crazy Rich Asians because that is a lot of weight for you know a light fluffy movie like this but you can't deny that there's something special about it. I mean Jon M. Chu is here to say that Asian people are beautiful and they can have Hollywood appeal too.

LL: Albert M. Chan you watch all of this unfold as both an actor and someone who makes films, what more do you think needs to be done to get more Asians on screen?

ALBERT M. CHAN: Well as someone in the entertainment industry, I mean it's not enough to just talk about diversity and representation in film and TV. I mean I think everyone has a responsibility nowadays even to create content that reflects their own experiences and it reflects our truly diverse society. I mean digital technology is so cheap these days. I recently made a short film that cost 140 dollars to make and now the Canadian Filmmakers Distribution Centre is partnering with me to try and get it seen by wider audiences so it actually doesn't cost anything to make high quality digital content these days.

LL: But is it going to be a blockbuster?

ALBERT M. CHAN: [Laughs] No, but it does tell stories from my unique perspective as a Chinese Canadian with immigrant parents. And so in that sense you know if everyone in the entertainment industry is working at all levels that's how you change people's minds.

LL: Okay so we have a couple of minutes left and I just want to go around the table here. Before we go, how optimistic are you about the future of Asian representation in Hollywood? Albert let's start with you.

ALBERT M. CHAN: Well I think there's always forward momentum. Sandra Oh recently got nominated as the first Asian woman for a lead actress Emmy for her drama series. And you know she said something, I'm paraphrasing, but she said you know it's a very long battle but we're making progress. And I think that's true. And you know we had two series recently in the U.S.: Fresh Off The Boat and Dr. Ken, which featured Asian casts. And you're seeing more and more series regulars on American shows as well. So I think we're definitely moving forward and we just need to sustain the fight.

LL: And just very quickly Albert, if you could have a dream role what would it be?

ALBERT M. CHAN: A dream role. It would definitely be to be a series regular probably like a quirky kind of detective on a cop show or something like that.

LL: Okay we have about 50 seconds left. Mallory what do you say about the future of Asian American representation on screen?

MALLORY YU: You know I'm really optimistic. I think like Albert was saying there's a lot of forward momentum. We're seeing actors like Awkwafina kind of rise up this summer and I think that's really great. But I do think that we need to keep talking amongst ourselves and with Hollywood about making sure that there are spaces for brown Asian stories to be told as well.

LL: Rebecca Sun last word to you.

REBECCA SUN: I'm more optimistic than I was last year when Scarlett Johansson starred in Ghost in the Shell. But I think what's happening now is building on this wave that goes beyond Asian Americans and we're building on the successes of you know black Hollywood and moving forward to open the doors beyond just Asians and like Mallory said all sorts of faces on screen.

LL: Thanks very much to you all.

MALLORY YU: Thank you.

REBECCA SUN: Thank you.

ALBERT M. CHAN: Thanks.

LL: Albert M. Chan is a Chinese Canadian actor and filmmaker. He was in New York. Mallory Yu is a producer and movies editor for NPR's All Things Considered. She was in Washington D.C.. And Rebecca Sun is a senior reporter with The Hollywood Reporter. We reached her in Los Angeles. The CBC News is coming up next. Then, protecting the universe against human contamination. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

Space travel could contaminate Mars with human germs, warns professor

Guests: Scott Hubbard, Lisa Pratt, Michael Barratt

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current. Still to come, a Muslim FBI agent goes undercover to target a Canadian terror cell. But first, protecting the galaxy by keeping human germs at home.

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VOICE 1: In a true biological crisis which our exploration of space could bring about, the present lunar receiving laboratory might prove inadequate.

[Distorted voice]

VOICE 2: What's happening?

VOICE 3: We see bodies. Lots of them.

VOICE 4: Everybody's dead.

LL: Those are some scenes from the 1971 movie The Andromeda Strain. The film imagines what might happen if extraterrestrial microbes infected Earthlings. And while the particulars of the film were pure science fiction, the plot was built on a genuine concern.

SOUNDCLIP

To protect against any possible lunar contamination, the astronauts put on airtight special garments before coming aboard the rescue ship. They transferred directly from the helicopter to a mobile quarantine van in which they would be flown back to the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, Texas.

LL: The Apollo 11 astronauts who landed on the moon in 1969 had to spend 21 days in that mobile quarantine unit until scientists knew they weren't bringing harmful bacteria or viruses back to Earth. They were following guidelines set out in the Outer Space Treaty; it's a 1967 agreement which established the rules for space faring nations. But now some scientists argue we need stronger rules for planetary protection, not just for earth, but to protect other planets from us. Scott Hubbard is an adjunct professor of aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. He is also one of the lead authors of a new report by the Committee of the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine; it says the current planetary protection policies need to be revised. The report was commissioned by NASA. And we have reached him in San Francisco. Hello.

SCOTT HUBBARD: Hello. Good morning.

LL: For people interested in planetary exploration what is the most important message from your report?

SCOTT HUBBARD: I think it's that there are three things happening that challenge the legacy processes for planetary protection. One, there is now a Mars sample return mission well underway for science. Two, there is serious planning for humans to Mars. And three, there are private sector players out there like SpaceX who demonstrated that they can send a rocket on their own all the way to roughly the orbit of Mars. But taken together these three developments called for a new look at our legacy processes.

LL: As we mentioned in the intro we already have the Outer Space Treaty, to what extent does it address the concern about protecting planets from us?

SCOTT HUBBARD: The Outer Space Treaty of 1967 says very clearly that spacefaring nations of the world and 120 nations have signed this, shall not contaminate other worlds and we should not bring back anything that would be harmful to the Earth. So the pieces are there but of course we've learned a great deal about biology and science based decision making over the last 50 years.

LL: So then what's missing, in your mind?

SCOTT HUBBARD: A major element of that is dealing with these very challenging science missions that could bring back let's call them the fingerprints of life or a biosignature as well as what happens when you send humans to Mars and then what should happen with the private sector initiatives.

LL: Are you looking at legislation? Is that what's needed?

SCOTT HUBBARD: In one case we said there is legislation needed because it turns out we called it the regulatory gap. It turns out there is no one in the United States government that has the authority to as it says continuously authorize and supervise private sector space activities. For that raised planetary protection issues, so we said yes there needs to be legislation.

LL: How do you even begin to calculate what kinds of human activity might put other planets at risk?

SCOTT HUBBARD: Well there is a long history. More than 50 years of trying to do this. And it is recognized that if you were to carry organisms to the surface of Mars and be in just the right environment they might possibly multiply. And so over the years NASA for its missions has developed a set of standards for cleanliness and what the committee was saying is that that whole group of requirements needs to be revisited and updated in light of what we now know about biology.

LL: But we're also talking about this fear of unintended consequences. No one is setting out to do anything.

SCOTT HUBBARD: That's right. What we're talking about is preserving with what is called contamination. Preserving the environment that these probes land in it. Remember we've had numerous successful landings on Mars recently, over the last 10-15 years, that we don't unintentionally contaminate that for future missions. And in the same way when we bring samples back from Mars we have to put in processes that would say that that does not possibly contaminate the Earth's biosphere.

LL: Right. Let's just lay that out clearly for listeners, that idea of contaminating for future missions. One of the reasons why you're trying to keep it pristine is because it might affect the actual research.

SCOTT HUBBARD: That's right. You know of all of the planets in the solar system, Mars is the most Earth like. And of the two possible targets were you might discover existing life or ancient life. Mars is easier to get to. There is another potential target a moon of Jupiter called Europa. And I think one of the most interesting and fundamental questions that human beings ask is, are we alone? Is there life elsewhere in the solar system or the universe? And Mars gives us that opportunity to answer that question but if we unintentionally contaminate it we might think we have a discovery when we really don't.

LL: I'm wondering what are some of the practical measures you think should be in place to make sure that humans don't go bouncing around the solar system despoiling celestial bodies?

SCOTT HUBBARD: Well one proposal that the committee heard was to establish exploration zones. So it is unknown if a human being were to land on Mars and there was an event let's say a spacesuit leak, we really don't know exactly where all of the bugs and biota that live on our bodies would go. The Martian environment is extremely harsh. I think most of the biologists that were on the committee thought that they would die very quickly but work needs to be done. And so the idea that we examined, was whether or not there could be a zone where humans could land if it was contaminated it didn't matter because there's no signs of previous life there and then that group could operate clean rovers or other types of vehicles that went out to the interesting regions where there might be the fingerprints of past life or possibly even existing life.

LL: Sounds like a brave new world to be explored and in a new way. Thank you very much for your insights.

SCOTT HUBBARD: My pleasure.

LL: Scott Hubbard is an adjunct professor of aeronautics and astronautics at Stanford University. And we reached him in San Francisco. While his concern's notwithstanding, contamination in space isn't being ignored. NASA has scientists dedicated to this issue. And my next guest is one of them. Lisa Pratt is NASA's planetary protection officer. She is at NASA headquarters in Washington D.C.. Hello.

LISA PRATT: Good morning.

LL: First off, what a great title; can you explain a bit about what a planetary protection officer does?

LISA PRATT: We're concerned about meeting the obligations of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, and that is to control contamination, biological contamination both forwards and backwards. Forward contamination refers to the components of terrestrial life that we carry on a spacecraft when we go to another world and we certainly don't want to inadvertently give an opportunity for a terrestrial life form to get to another location and replicate and contaminate that area. But we also worry as Scott mentioned about backward contamination when we return samples or sometime in the future when we return humans from another planetary body. The people that work with the headquarters office and the numerous contamination and planetary protection engineers that are employed at the various NASA centers where spacecraft are being assembled and those individuals are involved in a daily process of monitoring the cleanliness of space craft and cleaning and recleaning to ensure that what we launch from Earth is as clean as we can possibly make it.

LL: And not to be glib about it, but the typical car wash isn't going to do for scrubbing the space vehicles. Can you give me some sense of how you clean those?

LISA PRATT: Well first of all, the rooms themselves have very carefully controlled air handling systems and the air that enters the room is being pushed through very high quality filters. The people entering the room are following rigorous [inaudible] protocols. And once you're inside the room, even if you bring a computer or a cell phone into the room, it's wipe down with alcohol. So there's a lot of activities that are ensuring that once you're inside the room and next to that spacecraft that things are as clean as possible and then the spacecraft itself is constantly being wiped using sort of industrial scale q-tips as well as cloth wipes and we're wiping down with various biocidal compounds, things that will kill organisms that are on the surface of the spacecraft.

LL: That's just extraordinary. You've suggested in the past that we need to possibly loosen up some of the rules around planetary protection. Why?

LISA PRATT: Well we have a lot of interest from not only commercial but from private sector organizations that really want to get there faster than the federal space exploration would allow for. And so they're ramping things up with a faster and faster timeline to first getting cargo onto the surface of Mars that would be used to construct habitats and a human exploration zone and then to get there with humans and of course SpaceX has been particularly outspoken about wanting to get large number of tourists onto Mars as soon as possible. And I think we all understand that once we begin dropping cargo to build human habitats that cargo cannot be clean to the level that our current spacecraft are cleaned. And so if we are indeed going to have more contaminated less clean materials delivered to Mars in say 15 to 20 years then that's probably the end point for where we can truly do scientific exploration and hope to have a discovery of first contact with a possible form of life on Mars still in its native and uncontaminated state. So my feeling is if contamination from a human presence is inevitably coming our way then we have to accelerate and find flexible and innovative ways to try to look for that life now while the missions are still entirely robotic. And that might require international collaboration to rethink the planetary protection requirements for exploration of Mars.

LL: I just want to play some tape for you now. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

I call for a temporary moratorium on human missions to the red planet because I think it would be a big mistake to put a human being on the planet. I mean just in our gut you know we have huge amounts of bacteria that we excrete. And you know we're covered with bacteria and various organisms that live with us. You just can't clean a human being without killing a human being. So you know if we send a human being to the planet Mars you're basically bringing a massive bag of various living organisms from our planet and depositing them on the Martian surface. It might be okay but it potentially could contaminate any sort of native Martian organisms with Earth organisms. Right. And then there would always be the question you know did you actually find life on Mars or did you find something that a dirty human being brought with them?

LL: Now of course that reiterates some of the things that we've just been discussing. That was Todd Huffman the professor of particle physics at Oxford University. But he says we shouldn't have any missions to planets where there could be possible life until we can better prevent the spread of contamination. How do you respond to that?

LISA PRATT: He's absolutely right that the minute there's a human presence, there is a human signature of all of the associated microbes. Not to mention the fact that those humans are going to want to have fresh food so they're going to bring with them plants and soil and that's a whole additional ecology that would be contaminating Mars. And the thought that we could somehow keep that limited to an exploration zone I think is highly unlikely. Once we have either a human presence or the heavy construction materials that are necessary to prepare for a human presence we've altered the system irreparably. On the other hand I don't agree that we could discover something we brought with us and mistaken for a Martian. I think it's clear that the atmosphere and soils and groundwater of Mars are radically different from the conditions on Earth that life here has adapted to, so if there were to be a Martian life form and it has had four billion years to evolve and adapt to the harsh present day surface conditions on Mars, I don't think it will look like a terrestrial form of life. I think it will have a distinctive extraterrestrial signature and I think we'd be able to recognize it. My concerns are more that we would you know, if that Martian life at or near the surface is quite sparse, that we might fail to recognize it because we had a lot of terrestrial material that we were carrying with us or those two forms of life might intermingle or perhaps in the Hollywood esque scenario we would inadvertently contaminate the humans with an extra-terrestrial, a Martian form of life, before we even knew it was there. In which case we'd have an enormous ethical dilemma about how do we now quarantine those human explorers because they've now contacted an extraterrestrial form of life and I think playing that out on the surface of Mars would be a very difficult set of decisions to make.

LL: Absolutely. And has this type of thing been considered that if astronauts did come into contact with life in another world. Have the steps been considered? The ethics? Everything you're talking about.

LISA PRATT: It's a constant source of high level conversations and not just at NASA but everywhere around the world. Every space faring nation. Every individual who worries about ethics and philosophy is having this conversation and it's you know a very exciting time because we're changing the rules. And I think it is a bit naive to think that we could simply say thou shalt not go because there is extraordinary science to be done. There is also clearly a human passion for exploration and discovery and somehow we have to balance those needs right now and that's the real challenge in planetary protection is to continue to think about how long do we have to conduct science without the possibility of microbial, large scale microbial, contamination from human explorers.

LL: Thank you very much for talking to us. It's been fascinating.

LISA PRATT: Thank you for the chance to participate in this conversation.

LL: Lisa Pratt is a planetary protection officer with NASA. We reached her in Washington D.C.. Now most people are looking at this issue from the outside but not Michael Barratt. He's one of the few people on Earth who can talk about contamination in space from firsthand experience. Michael Barratt has been with NASA for 18 years. He's a physician and an astronaut.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: T minus 15 seconds.

MICHAEL BARRATT: I have actually flown two missions.

VOICE 1: Second umbilical tower moving away from the Soyuz.

MICHAEL BARRATT: One long mission to the International Space Station during which I spent six and a half months up there. 199 days. And I flew up and down on the Russian Soyuz.

VOICE 1: Lift off of the Soyuz spacecraft carrying Gennady Padalka, Mike Barratt, and Charles Simonyi to the International Space Station.

MICHAEL BARRATT: Following that I flew one of the last missions of the space shuttle program STS-133.

VOICE 3: And the final liftoff of Discovery, a tribute to the dedication hard work and pride of America's space shuttle team. The shuttle has cleared the tower.

MICHAEL BARRATT: On the space shuttle Discovery, it was her last mission to help construct and finish the International Space Station. And that was just a 13 day mission. Went by real quick. And they were both tremendous experiences. One of the more well-known breaches in pre-flight crew quarantine was Apollo 7. They were launching the first human mission of the Apollo series capsule. This was during the space race and the stakes were very high.

VOICE 4: The purpose of the flight of Apollo 7 could be stated very simply, prove that the spacecraft command and service modules would function properly in space, long enough to carry men to the moon and back.

MICHAEL BARRATT: This was the capsule that eventually was going to take people to the moon of course and rendezvous with the Lander. But all three crew members ended up having head colds basically, and they were able to accomplish their mission but they just felt lousy just like you would normally feel on the ground when you have a head cold. And so after that, we realized how vulnerable we were to potential infectious disease in space. So we tightened up a quarantine program and that served us very well through the remainder of the Apollo program and of course that was carried over to the space shuttle program. When we launch in Russia we are actually taken down to a cosmonaut compound as we call it that resembles a prison to some of us, I mean it does have high walls and razor wire and gun towers and all that, but it's actually quite comfortable inside and nobody gets close to you unless they're screened by a physician to begin with and if you have anything in your history that suggests an infectious disease or exposure even to a kid with a cold, you're not allowed close to the crew. And in general that system works pretty well. It makes for a very drap final two weeks before launch in some ways because you really want to be with friends and family before you leave the planet for months at a time. But we do that for a very good reason. And at the times that we've had breaches in that sort of reminds us that it's really really important to observe that quarantine very strictly. And so we're actually starting programs now to launch new vehicles from U.S. soil and we are absolutely imposing the same type of quarantine before anybody goes to the space station.

VOICE 5: Touch down. The nose of the shuttle being rotated down toward the flight deck.

MICHAEL BARRATT: We're not quarantined coming back because we're not so worried about carrying a bug once we're already home.

VOICE 5: And nose gear touch down in the end of a historic journey.

MICHAEL BARRATT: So when we come home the first thing we want to do is see our families. And by and large we get discharged into the custody of our families about a day or two after we land.

VOICE 6: Discovery Houston great job by you and your crew. That was a great landing in tough conditions. [Inaudible]

MICHAEL BARRATT: We found that life is a lot more hardy on Earth than we ever thought in the last couple of decades. We find bacteria even more primitive organisms that live under high pressure and high temperature where there's absolutely no light or whatever. I mean life is incredibly hardy and resilient in some ways. And so when you're looking at the harsh conditions on Mars you know they're actually not that harsh compared to where a lot of organisms can live have shown that they can live on Earth. And so the chances of encountering something like that are not zero, not by any means, and they may be higher than we think. You know the chances of us finding little people, little Martian folks, who are going to say hello to us and feed us and all that kind of stuff, that isn't going to happen. But the chances of encountering something primitive that could be a little bit more dangerous to us is appreciable. And so one of the things that we want to avoid is bringing something back, something especially as simple elemental life form that could insert itself into our ecosystem and potentially take root and cause damage. So I think that the concept of post-flight quarantine for the first few crews certainly that come back from Mars is almost a foregone conclusion to a lot of us. You know the consequences of missing something or messing this up are fairly high. We're not daunted by that prospect of having a post like quarantine.

LL: That is Michael Barratt, astronaut and physician at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. So what do you think, should we be exploring space at the risk of contaminating other worlds or at risk of bringing something back that might do harm to us? Let us know. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or me @lauralynchcbc. You can post on Facebook at Facebook.com/cbcthecurrent or you can always email us through our web site. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact us link. Well coming up in our next half hour trains, terror plots, and the secret spy operation that may have saved hundreds of Canadian lives. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

How a Muslim undercover FBI agent foiled Via Rail terror plot in Canada

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS CASTER: The RCMP arrested 30 year old Chiheb Esseghaier Montreal then flew him to the Toronto area yesterday. He's a scientist originally from Tunisia doing research for his Ph.D., northeast of Montreal. His colleagues were shocked to hear about his arrest. However this fellow student isn't totally surprised. He thought of Esseghaier as an extremist, after the man, now under arrest, criticized him for paying Canadian taxes when he's a Muslim.

LL: The CBC News from April the 23rd 2013 with a report about a deadly plot hatched in Canada targeting hundreds of civilians. Chiheb Esseghaier was just a part of a wider conspiracy that would have the CSIS, the RCMP, and the FBI all working together to try to break up what they saw as a dangerous al Qaeda linked terrorist cell. The key law enforcement player in the game of cat and mouse was an undercover FBI agent known by the pseudonym Tamer Elnoury. Originally from Egypt, he was one of the few Arabic speaking Muslims in the bureau. I covered the case extensively and I listened to Tamer Elnoury give evidence. But journalists were barred from seeing his face and I still have no idea what he looks like. But last fall Tamer Elnoury finally told his story of going undercover in Canada, in a new book called American Radical: Inside the World of an Undercover Muslim FBI Agent. Last October with his voice disguised, Tamer Elnoury spoke with me from New York. Our conversation began with talk about so-called legends; the different characters and backstories that he develops for different undercover investigations. I asked him to describe Tamer Elnoury’s legend in the Canadian terrorism case.

TAMER ELNOURY: A wealthy Egyptian American businessman who has hidden jihadi beliefs and was a quote unquote likeminded brother to the terrorists.

LL: How long did it take you to develop that persona and how much of that is based on you?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well obviously you know I do it for a living. And you know that it's all an act, especially the radical mindset. The foundation to any legend that I develop has to be as close to reality as possible, because when you're embedded in a group or you travel the world with these terrorists sooner or later your true colors start to come out. So if your legend is as close to reality as possible that's a recipe for success.

LL: And that came through in what way would you say? How did you translate what was in you to the character that made it effective in your investigation?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well it's one thing to be a wealthy individual that's easy to fake being rich. It's easy to fake companies and businesses. But you have to have what we call a point of radicalization and that is something that happened to you that takes you from mainstream Islam to radical Islam. And again if you want to be successful you need to make that real, emotional and believable.

LL: And you say point of radicalization that is when you tell your story to someone you're investigating about how you became a radical. And it's a turning point for you. That's correct is it?

TAMER ELNOURY: That's exactly correct. And it's not something that you just throw out there, no matter which subject I'm in front of. They have to earn that. You don't offer it up right away. It's a give and take like a normal development of a relationship.

LL: Okay let's talk about this in the context of the investigation into Chiheb Esseghaier, one of the men who was convicted in the Via Rail plot. I want to ask you about him. He was living in Montreal. How did he come onto your radar?

TAMER ELNOURY: He was talking to some known Al Qaeda members. He was communicating with them. His trips to Iran were unsettling. So there was a lot of red flags and indicators early on the investigation that basically led us to putting me in front of him so that we can accurately gauge the threat level that he posed.

LL: And so in a way that still remains a mystery. You managed to bump into him on a plane ride. Tell me about that.

TAMER ELNOURY: Yes. First impressions are crucial in any relationship but especially in an undercover one you want your subject to choose you. You want your subject to go to bed at night thinking about what he can do for you to make you his friend. And that's just part of the psychological aspect of what we do. But it's also based on human nature.

LL: All right so how did you do this. How did you work yourself into his confidence on that plane ride?

TAMER ELNOURY: Giving him breadcrumbs. First and foremost he is in a foreign land and he's sitting next to someone who looks like him and sounds like him. And then I guess the icing on the cake for Chiheb was the fact that he was able to have me jump through hoops, his tests as you, if you will. So when he interprets the religion a certain way I will show him that that's exactly how I interpret it as well. So not only he will be able to speak to me in his native tongue. Not only are we able to talk culturally the same way, but now he feels that religiously we're in the same place.

LL: And he had confidence in you pretty quickly, didn't he?

TAMER ELNOURY: Yes I think because we, as an investigative team, did our homework. We knew what we needed to do to befriend him.

LL: Let's bring it back again then to you sharing your point of radicalization with him. This is where it comes in. Tell me what you told him.

TAMER ELNOURY: Well I used the story of my mother's passing, twisted up some of the facts but at the end of the day her passing I painted it as my point of radicalization, when in reality my mother's words to me on her deathbed was to do as much good in this world as you possibly can. And I will see you in heaven. Instead, I made it so that I twisted up the facts of how she died or the fact that she was led down a different path by doctors and nurses because they didn't respect her for simply being a Muslim. I use the emotion of her actual death and twisted up the facts to use that to gain his confidence.

LL: And he was sold he said he believed your emotion around that.

TAMER ELNOURY: Yes ma'am.

LL: So what was his mission as you understood it, for Al Qaeda?

TAMER ELNOURY: Maximum casualties. His mission was to inflict carnage in North America. He was tasked with the train plot. And when I invited him to New York he started coming up with his own plots and plans to detonate explosives in Times Square. He was here to kill Americans and Canadians.

LL: Tell me what his what he told you about what the mission was regarding the train.

TAMER ELNOURY: The mission was simple; to derail a train over a bridge so that the train would fall into as little water as possible in an effort to make sure that everyone on board the train died.

LL: And he told you - he shared this with you on a long long car ride from Montreal to Toronto. What was that ride like?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well first and foremost it was a ride I didn't want to take it because I didn't want to spend that much time alone with him. But I understood the investigative value in doing so. Once we got on that car ride, it was a deep dive into the terrorist mindset. I learned more from Chiheb than I have from a lot of the schools in radical Islam that I went to, because here's a guy who upon first glance is a jovial world renowned scientist on the precipice of curing Infectious Diseases. He had so much to offer humanity and within two years was one step to move from Ayman al Zawahiri, the leader of al Qaeda. So I really got a sense of who Chiheb was and what his motivations were on our car ride.

LL: And what I should say is that this was all your conversation with him, and much of the rest of your conversations with him were being monitored and recorded by the FBI. So they were hearing most of what you were hearing. You go to Toronto; you meet a third person Raed Jaser who Esseghaier has invited to join the group, the plot. And at one point you, Esseghaier and Raed Jesser go to scout a possible location for this train attack which is a bridge outside of Toronto. I want you to tell me what happened when you were on the tracks.

TAMER ELNOURY: Well, first up, it was an RCMP led investigation because everything we did on Canadian soil was obviously led by the RCMP. And once we were on those tracks we were not expecting a train to start making its way our way. So needless to say, there was a bit of nerves on all of our parts - mainly mine and Jaser’s - and we thankfully were able to distinguish which set of tracks it was on so we can get on the opposite side and not get sucked under. The train conductor or the engineer saw us on there and did his dutiful duty and reported it to police.

LL: And what happened then?

TAMER ELNOURY: We sat in the parking lot. Chiheb was dictating our assignments moving forward. Raed and I are probably a little still rattled from almost getting hit by a train. And shortly thereafter it became a felony motor vehicle stopped by Toronto police. They boxed in the vehicle and they approached the vehicle took our information. They asked, you know, they told us that the engineer had seen us on there. I lied to him. I said that we had taken the wrong path. We meant to go on the walkway, in an effort to move along the interrogation as quickly as possible and not risk ending the investigation. And that was that.

LL: You lied because you were worried everything – what - was going to fall apart?

TAMER ELNOURY: Of course. We get arrested, the investigation is over. Everyone shut down. Every piece of intelligence that's in Cheiheb Esseghaier’s brain is lost.

LL: Something has always struck me as curious about this. Shortly after this episode, the police do leave. Esseghaier and Jaser begin to argue with each other. Eventually Jaser drops out of the plot. And I was reading in your book that both men refused to admit that the train plot was - and this is your words - stupid. That's what you wrote in the book. If it was stupid, if it was stupid why were so many officers and resources dedicated to this investigation?

TAMER ELNOURY: You have to understand something, Laura. It comes down to this. I don't care what your plots are. I don't care how stupid or smart or brilliant your attacks are. If your mindset and your intent is to kill innocents, okay, we are going to dedicate resources to getting in front of you, meeting the elements of the crime, and putting you in a position to never hurt anyone. So whether you wanted to blow up a train or poison a water supply or detonate an IED, whether it's brilliant, stupid, never going to happen, most likely going to happen, it doesn't matter. If your intent is to kill innocents - you're absolutely right - we are going to dedicate resources too because that's what we do.

LL: I had a chance to interview Chiheb Esseghaier after his arrest. This was over the phone after meeting him in person. I asked him if he was a jihadist and I want you to listen to this. This is part of what he said to me.

SOUNDCLIP

Because God, in the Quran, Allah, our Lord in the Quran, He described us as Muslims. What are jihadists? This is does not exist in the Quran. So God, He describes us as Muslims, so I am Muslim.

LL: So he says there: “I am not jihadist. I am Muslim” Tamer Elnoury, what goes through your mind when you hear his voice?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well it's a blast from the past. That is probably the first time I've heard his voice since the trial, a couple of years ago. But I will respond to what he has to say, and it's very similar - if you recall - because you were covering the trial. He sat quiet through almost the entire trial. He never ever budged except for when the one time I said that his interpretation of religion is a desecration of my religion. That's when he jumped out of his seat and he yelled to me that he - that there is only one interpretation of Islam. And I would argue ironically enough that he's exactly right. His interpretation is the warped view. And the reason why I call him a jihadi and he wants to call himself a Muslim is because he's not a Muslim. He is against everything that Islam stands for. He has broken every single religious rule and yet he claims to be a Muslim and he's trying to soften it. But I wholeheartedly disagree and so do the majority of Muslims.

LL: I want to get into his state of mind more with you, because forensic psychiatrists described him as actively psychotic after he was convicted and during the sentencing phase. He's since been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He's being treated now. He's appealing his sentence arguing he was mentally unfit. You say you can tell when someone is a big talker, a poser and when someone is truly dangerous and violent. Knowing Esseghaier was sick, how do you know that he was the latter?

TAMER ELNOURY: First and foremost I'm not going to get into any of his mindset, as far as you know talking about whether or not he's this or that. We'll leave that to the courts to decide. His upcoming appeals but I will tell you that, in no uncertain terms, Chiheb Esseghaeir was an absolute threat to society. His goal was to maim and kill as many innocents as possible. So he knew right from wrong. He justified and rationalize that - if you read in my book, Laura, I did the Christian burial speech and that is my way of basically showing remorse for what we're about to do and thinking about backing out. And he rationalized scientifically, religiously in his warped way – okay - that's why we're going to kill people. And even though it's technically haram, which means forbidden, to hurt people, it's a necessity of war based on what we're going through. That is not the mind of a madman. That has a mind of a lucid thinker who is absolutely planning and plotting and he had the intent to kill.

LL: Esseghaier and Raed Jaser are both serving life sentences on terrorism related convictions. Do you think then, that justice was served? I would say in your answer is yes.

TAMER ELNOURY: Absolutely. I wish I could ask you that same question because your tone suggests that you disagree with that.

LL: I'm just asking questions. I want actually also asked you about the way that the investigation ended. You weren't happy with the way the Canadians ended this investigation. Why not?

TAMER ELNOURY: I felt that there was so much more meat left on the bone. I understand it, though and I expressed in the book, the Canadian government and our government our best of friends and allies and we are partners in the war against terror. So when the resources are separated - Mind you Laura, the Canadian investigation for all intents and purposes was wrapped up in about three and a half weeks. They extended this investigation for seven months, in an effort for us to do our due diligence. So it's not like they just wrapped it up and pulled the plug. They were very supportive from day one. They gave me the protections I needed during trial. They supported me 100% and their fight is our fight and vice versa. I still have many friends in Canada that I consider lifelong friends to this day. It is just we ran out of time.

LL: I should background this a little bit by saying what you're speaking about is the fact that Chiheb Esseghaier mentioned to you that there was an American sleeper fellow who had also been recruited by al Qaeda in the United States. Esseghaier didn't know who it was. You kept going because you thought he would be able to reveal that to you. What worries you today about that sleeper?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well you know there hasn't been a day since April 22nd 2013 where I haven't thought about him. What worries me, professionally and personally, is missing one more. That's what it comes down to. I don't want to miss a single one. I believe that there is evil out there, everywhere and I'm thankful and happy and proud to be a part of an organization that dedicates all its resources to stopping that evil war every day.

LL: There was another man involved in this investigation. His name is Ahmed Abbassi. Tell me how he was connected to Esseghaier and Jaser.

TAMER ELNOURY: Well, to sum it up, basically we found out that he was essentially Esseghaier radicalizer. He was the one that turned Shehab into this individual that went overseas to train and become an Al Qaeda sleeper cell. And Abbassi’s temperature, if you will for lack of a better word, was much more cunning and slow roasting than Chiheb’s. He was in it for the long game and he was training here, and being educated here to hurt Americans on a much grander scale than Chiheb was planning to.

LL: He was he was arrested the same day as Esseghaier and Jaser but he was arrested in the United States in New York and charged. And his defense lawyer is Sabrina Shroff. And I want to play you some tape of her. She's the lawyer for Ahmed Abbassi and this is her speaking to the Fifth Estate.

SOUNDCLIP

But they never turned him. They never turned him into the man they wanted him to be. Thet never turned him into a terrorist. He did not do anything. Repeatedly, four months at a time, despite great pressure, Mr. Abbassi never did anything. I'm quite puzzled. Does the undercover [unintelligible] see this? Had Mr. Abbassi done anything at all, wouldn't that be in the charging instrument? I mean you are talking about prosecutors in the southern district of New York. They are very smart people, correct? I mean whatever else you may want to say about a federal prosecutor in the southern district. They know what they're doing in terms of drafting up a charging instrument.

LL: Let's make this clear. He was originally charged with terrorism related offenses and they were eventually dropped. Tamer Elnoury, how do you respond to her allegations that you tried and failed to entrap her client?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well first and foremost they were dropped, they were reduced. Second, when I met that man in Quebec City his true colors came out. He was much more cunning and was in it for the long game. His hatred for the United States was seeping through his pores. There was no ifs, ands or buts about it. Now granted in and of itself it wasn't a crime, but he had grandiose plans of destruction, but he was slow rolling them. So, the man that I met in Quebec City then traveled to Tunisia, and the plan was to continue this conversation in Canada when he returned, where I would have been able to truly vet his intentions and the threat level. But his Canadian visa was polled by the Canadian government, again understandably, my personal opinion; you can't put a Band-Aid on terrorism. So just by keeping him out of the West does not him more or less of a threat. The world's too small for that. So by the time I got him to come to New York City he was a shell of a man that I had met. And oh by the way I had three weeks to get proper charging and bring back the man from Quebec City. And just in time, just as soon as I started to see the true Abbassi and his true colors coming out, he's talking to Al Nusra, Al Qaeda affiliates overseas in Jordan, regularly having conversations with some of the worst people on the planet. He was getting there. But like I said we ran out of time.

LL: It's interesting that in the position you're in in the work kind of work that you do and you are a rare catch for the FBI - that you're actually you speak Arabic. You can you can actually live in both worlds obviously you're able to do this. How do you stop yourself from - You say you can differentiate. How do you stop yourself from seeing terrorism around every corner? Your senses must be heightened about that sort of thing.

TAMER ELNOURY: Well I think being on a job for 22 years you ask anybody that's in my line of work. Sure. We see the world differently, but at the end of the day we all follow the evidence. Yes there's a certain level of gut instincts that you develop over the years, a sixth sense if you will. But that's a testament to the work that we do. Do you know how many people I've been in front of that you'll never hear about, whether they were truly terrorists or not? The point is - it's not like I get in front of someone and the next thing you know they're getting arrested. No. We evaluate threats when we think they are and we continue to move on.

LL: It is extremely rare for an active FBI officer to write a book about a case while he's still in the bureau and still doing investigations. Why did you do it?

TAMER ELNOURY: Well as you are aware this case was declassified for trial. None of my cases get the crossfire for trials. It's very rare for me. It gave me an opportunity, Laura, to be a voice for those that don't have one. I offer a unique perspective on a socially relevant topic that's talked about a lot but often misunderstood. I mean it's a real window into this world that most Americans and Canadians know nothing about. So I'm hoping to honor the brave men and women of the RCMP and the FBI that are combating terrorism every day to keep both of our countries safe.

LL: Tamer Elnoury, or whatever your real name may be, thank you very much for writing the book and thank you for talking to us today.

TAMER ELNOURY: Thank you Laura.

LL: Bye bye.

TAMER ELNOURY: Bye now.

LL: That was my conversation with an FBI undercover agent known as Tamer Elnoury. He is the author of the book American Radical: Inside the World of an Undercover Muslim FBI Agent. I spoke with him last October. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Director Jon M. Chu speaks with Laurie Brown about bringing the hit novel Crazy Rich Asians to the big screen and the great expectations surrounding Hollywood's first all Asian rom-com. Remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. Now no doubt about it there is something magical about space. And while most people can only imagine what it must be like to break Earth's gravity and float in the cosmos, there are a lucky few who have actually done it. One of them is Dr. Michael Barratt. You heard him earlier in the show talking about what it's like coming home to be decontaminated after spending months on the space station. Well here he is recalling the out of this world experience of space flight. I'm Laura Lynch. Thank you for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL BARRATT: The first launch I had was from Kazakhstan on the Russian Soyuz. And it's a very gentle ride into orbit actually and you spent about 8 1/2 minutes of rocket powered ascent and you get up into orbit by going seventeen thousand five hundred miles an hour over the ground that gives you your orbital velocity to sustain yourself up there and the engines cut off very abruptly. So you go from weighing in about three and a half four times your body weight to nothing. All of a sudden there is nothing gradual about the transition from acceleration to weightlessness. Basically zero gravity. And so that feeling is just one of the most seminal moments of anyone's life. Because especially for your first flight, all of a sudden you've had this rocket ride and all of a sudden you were in space. You weigh nothing. There was a rush of fluid to your head. It feels like you're hanging from the monkey bars and your system of balance is totally discombobulated because it's totally unloaded and doesn't know quite what to do with the inputs. There's no more up or down. And you look out the window very shortly after that you see your home planet from space for the first time. And it's just remarkably beautiful. Something that you know we wish everybody could see. Because you can't describe just how incredibly beautiful it is. And at the same time you're very worried about your spaceship because you just put it through something traumatic so you're spending a lot of time checking for leaks, checking for system viability, making sure that you're healthy enough to stay on board. And that balance system I was telling you about can actually start to bite you there. So people get what's called space motion sickness. And that can hit you just a few minutes after the engines cut off. So all of those things are happening at once. They're all incredibly novel. They're strange to you. They're magical in a way. But they're all happening at once and in some ways that can be kind of an overwhelming first few minutes in space. But a really wonderful one. Something I wish everybody could experience.

Wednesday August 15, 2018 Full Episode Transcript

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