Tackling coronavirus variants around the world

Guests: Mark Henshaw, Dr. Pablo Tsukayama

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In Canada through to the gold medal match, amid wild scenes of elation and despair.

[Cheers]

ROSEMARY BARTON: Team Canada, women's Olympic soccer beating the U.S. in the semi-final match. And this morning, Canada goes for gold against Sweden. We'll bring you some of the action and what this game means for growing the sport here. And then.

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Four years ago, there were some startling revelations about the activities of the CIA in Canada. The American Intelligence Agency had paid for a series of brainwashing experiments under a project codenamed MK Ultra.

RB: the CIA, LSD, Mind Control and the Montreal hospital at the centre of it all. In an hour, we return to our presentation of the CBC podcast, Brainwashed. But first, countries around the world are struggling to contain the covid-19 variants. Good morning. I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

RB: The highly transmissible covid variants continue to spread around the world. This morning, we'll hear from countries trying to fend off new outbreaks. We start where the whole pandemic began. Wuhan, China. The country has seen its worst outbreak of the virus in months now. And despite a policy to keep local infections at zero, the recent spike in cases has resulted in Chinese authorities shutting down transportation, doing massive testing, instituting quarantines. Mark Henshaw is a Canadian teacher living and working in Wuhan. Good morning, Mark.

MARK HENSHAW: Good morning, Rosemary.

RB: I know we've talked to you on the show before. Tell us what's happening where you are right now. What is the latest in terms of cases? You know, as much as you know anyway?

MARK HENSHAW: Yeah, well, across the horn, we currently have about 20 cases that have been identified and that started around the second of August for we identified four seven cases. And it's most likely that those cases came from a city called Nanjing outside of Wuhan, and in those cases most likely came from Russia. That's the recent news.

RB: It does sound like they came in through aeroplane cleaning crew. So, I mean, you can see how something can quickly spiral out. Does it sound like, from what you've been told, that this is in large part the Delta variant?

MARK HENSHAW: So, yes, one case did come out of that aeroplane cleaning situation with the Delta variant, and I think that's why the government was so quick to respond, because even though of the of the cases, one was Delta. Again, we understand there's a lot we don't understand about this virus. So that's why literally the next day, August the third, after the seven cases were declared, August the third was declared that there would be citywide testing everybody. And since then, there's been 10 million people who have been tested based on recent reports and twenty thousand twenty eight thousand volunteers helping out. And it's not a total lockdown at all. Particular areas in Millhone are currently in quarantine.

RB: What does that mean if they're in quarantine in terms of people's freedom of movement and whether you can go into those areas?

MARK HENSHAW: Yeah, it probably means like I haven't asked anyone who lives in quarantine right now because I don't I don't know anyone who's in quarantine. But if it's anything like it was before you stay in your apartment, unless you're picking up groceries or throwing out the garbage.

RB: So we should tell people that there are a few hundred cases in all of China, a country of, you know, almost one point five billion people. So it's a relatively low number. But officials are taking it very seriously. And how comprehensive is the testing? Because that's not something that we are doing on the same scale in Canada.

MARK HENSHAW: Well, the yeah, like you said, there has been a very strong response. Like I mentioned, within less than 24 hours, we started testing from the time that we indicated seven cases were found and 10 million people have been tested. So I've been I've gone out. I've been tested myself. I've also been double vaccinated months ago. I'm trying to do my best to steer clear. But, yeah, it's I don't know how much more comprehensive you can get of 10 million people have been tested in less than four days.

RB: I was just going to say and the idea, as I said at the top, was to try and keep cases at zero so you can understand maybe what testing is key to this.

MARK HENSHAW: Yeah, I know. Western countries, including Canada, are taking a different approach. And, you know, there's different systems, different mindsets, different political ways of doing things. But what's been great is that once the government declared there's going to be citywide testing, information went out pretty quickly, like I said. 28,000 volunteers being involved. So like the people are responding because the people are scared of things getting worse or escalating. So they're being very vigilant.

RB: You said that you've been vaccinated for quite some time. I know information is always hard to get in China, but do you have a sense of how many people have been vaccinated in Wuhan right now?

MARK HENSHAW: Well, we all know the information that the government has put out, which is which has been it's been echoed true routers and different sources as 1.7 billion vaccinations have been administered. Right. And how many? And Mugen, I can't tell you, but that's as much as I know about the country.

RB: Does it seem just from your circle of acquaintances and friends that most people are vaccinated or anxious to be?

MARK HENSHAW: Yeah, definitely. Most people are vaccinated. It's it's something that's the your work office will have no problem with encouraging you, supporting you to get vaccinated. I mean, from my understanding, the big vaccination was done like months ago. So I if I would think again, I don't have access to the numbers, but I would think that people who plan to get vaccinated would have been already vaccinated by now.

RB: So there's the widespread testing, shutting down of transportation and then quarantines in particular neighbourhoods. Beyond that, has your life changed now because of this outbreak, Mark?

MARK HENSHAW: In a simple sense, yeah, I'm just mostly staying home, and that's where most people are doing here. And one other than going to work where they're doing the regular tests, people are either work or at home. There's very little people out publicly. So even if you were to go out, there would be a very low chance of you to physically contact bump into somebody because there's very little people out right now. So, yeah, I mean, like, I again, I've been in an apartment for about 90 days during the pandemic when things started to happen. And I don't want to go back to that. But I know that by playing my part and by staying home and being careful, it can at least it's something I can do to reduce the potential of things spreading.

RB: And are things closed, restaurants, stores, non-essential stores, that kind of thing or. No?

MARK HENSHAW: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. Well, I mean, and to your point about the buses, the bus, the transit system is not completely shut down, just selective areas are shut down relative to quarantined areas. As for restaurants, establishments, restaurants are still running. But again, if you were to go to a restaurant right now, like I someone went to a more recently and they said the mall was basically dead. And in in one, there's two floors dedicated to restaurants at least. So virtually no people there. And even at the little shops, I think people are choosing to cook at home. More entertainment venues, though, large scale entertainment venues, theatres, performance halls, they're all shut down.

RB: One of the things that we've been talking about on this programme this week, and I'm sure you've been following in the U.S. as well as is mask wearing, there are provinces here that have decided to to get rid of the masks mandates in the United States. The Centres for Disease Control have asked people to start putting masks back on. Is mask wearing still happening in Wuhan or in parts of China?

MARK HENSHAW: In Wuhan, which is where I live, I can say it's still a habit, it's been a habit ever since the Ganda, the initial pandemic broke out again. You'll see the odd person like I mean, no community of 12 million people in the city is going to perfectly be wearing masks all the time. Or, you know, you see some people pulling out a cigarette. Obviously, people don't wear masks when they eat, if they eat out. The odd person walking around maybe isn't wearing a mask. But I'd say as a strong majority, people are have been wearing masks consistently since last year.

RB: How do you think people are feeling having to go through this again, knowing that this is the, you know, the place where this originated, that it was brutal when it first unfolded? As you say, you spent all that time in here, probably small apartment work. What's your sense of how people are, you know, are doing emotionally and mentally dealing with this again?

MARK HENSHAW: I think it's fair to say and this is based on kind of my own experience, it's fair to say that some people might be a little apprehensive, a little concerned about like what if things do escalate? What if things do get worse? But really, that's why I think people have responded so quickly to getting tested, and that's why people are being vigilant with their masks for the most part, instead of like that. Because like we actually have a plan. Like I way I can put it is when things first happened over a year ago, we were kind of creating something out of nothing that's not really sure exactly what to do. No country in the world knew exactly how to handle this. But as time passes and now it's been a year, we've had lessons learnt, which is why people are still wearing their mask, which is why people are choosing to line up to get test, 1.7 billion administered cases of the vaccine across China. So I think that people have somewhere to put their anxiety, which is, OK, I'm going to go I'm going to line up and get a test as soon as possible. And otherwise, if you think about it, if there is no solution like before, it would stay at home and that was it. Now it's OK. Well, we're not going to tell you to stay at home, but we're going to close down these establishments. We're going to encourage you to get tested. And then again, already we've had ten million people tested with about, again, 20 cases and one that we've understood that is that has come out.

RB: I mean, that's that's quite incredible, that level of testing. We're certainly not seeing that in your your your native country here in Canada. How are you doing? I mean, this has been you went to China to teach to to live somewhere different, to to learn new things and meet new people. This probably isn't what you expected.

MARK HENSHAW: Absolutely not. I mean, the world we're living in right now is not what anybody would have expected unless potentially you're Bill Gates. But but yeah, no, it's you know, the big thing to your point, though, and empathising with people like myself who come to China to to work on a big a big bonus of especially living in Wuhan, it's the centre of China. A big bonus of teaching is summer holidays and then taking those times to travel. But we haven't been able to leave China since the outbreak unless unless you basically don't want to come back or you have a special circumstance in which you can be accepted by the government to come back. So travelling has been a lot more controlled. It's been a lot more isolated, which could which is I know there are less foreigners here than they were before. So like me personally, I I've taken into travelling more locally when you were able to move around more. But right now, at this moment, you can technically move around the province if you want. But if you do, your workplace is saying you have to be back two weeks before any event that you did catch something, then you can quarantine for two weeks. But people are just mostly not even going to do that. So you're taking away travelling definitely has an effect on like, you know, like it doesn't make it as an enjoyable. Yes.

RB: Yeah. Well, you wouldn't be travelling much here either, if that reasserts you at all. All right. Mark Henshaw, thanks for giving us the perspective there on the ground in Wuhan, China this morning.

MARK HENSHAW: Thanks for your time, Rosemary.

RB: Oh, thank you very much. Mark Henshaw is a Canadian teacher living and working in Wuhan, where, as you heard, they are dealing with a small outbreak in that province. But in China writ large, a couple of hundred cases for about one point five billion people who live there. Australia also had been dealing with its own outbreak, and it has now moved into early lockdowns and strict border closures. But it, too, is struggling with vaccines. The Delta Verin continues to be top of mind around the world. Another one, though the lambda variant has been flagged as a variant of interest by the show. There are a handful of cases in Canada, but it's been spreading rapidly in South America, especially in Peru. Dr. Pablo Tsukayama is professor of microbiology at Cayetano Heredia University in Lima, Peru. Dr. Sukma, good morning.

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: Good morning. Thanks for the invitation. Yeah.

RB: So you were one of the first scientists to document lambdas emergence in Peru. When did you start to realise that you had a variant on your hands and it could be troubling.

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: So this was part of our genomic surveillance project that we have in Cayetano University, and it's done in collaboration with the Peruvian government and it's small scale. So we were processing about 100 samples from all regions of Peru monthly for 2020. And by December, that's when we first started noticing these atypical mutant that he wasn't even called c-37 yet or Lamda, but it was just one percent of cases as we kept sequencing throughout the summer in Peru by March, it was already 50 percent of all the cases in Lima, and by April it was already 80 percent of all the cases. So these rapid growth from one to 80 percent in just four months, this is something that we had seen already before, have been in the UK, then in South Africa, then in Brazil. So at that point, it made sense. It was pretty clear that we had already a new variant in our hands and that's when we sounded the alarm. So we requested that he got designated new names and those C-37. And then we started noticing that it was already outside between countries like Chile and Argentina. And that's when these countries asked the World Health Organisation so that it can be considered as a bit of interest. And they took a few weeks. And by mid-June, June was already called Lamda.

RB: And how does it compare to other variants in terms of how infectious it is and I guess how deadly it is?

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: So it presents a similar pattern to the other variants in that it is very likely that it is more transmissible. There's a series of mutations that across its genome, but particularly in this fight protein, which is very important for recognition by the human host. So early evidence suggests that it is indeed more transmissible. Of course, there are other two areas that worry if it's either more virulent with some sort of new capabilities, you can skip the action of vaccines. We don't have the evidence for that just yet. And that's the other thing that we have with Lamda because it's coming out of South America. But we have too little capacity to do genomic surveillance and we have even smaller capacity to do the follow up laboratory work, then proving that it is indeed more transmissible or more virulent or that escapes antibodies. It's just very difficult and it takes a longer time to do here as compared to other. So now that it's being designated of interest, then more countries, more goods are coming in and doing the back up research work, and now in the next few weeks, we'll start seeing additional evidence that's required to put more numbers, more precise numbers on its transmissibility, virulence and [unintelligible].

RB: I know you don't have a super high rate of vaccination in Peru at this stage. And it sounds like you may not know the answer to this question, but do you know whether vaccines are offering enough protection against Lamda?

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: Unfortunately not. I mean, there haven't been much testing done on Lamda, especially how they measure up to the vaccines. Are we currently using in South America? They tend to be. I love my country. That being said, there is no reason to believe that any of these vaccines will fail completely. We have not seen that just yet, that any variant can completely skip the action of vaccines. What we're seeing is a slight decrease in efficacy in the laboratory, and that does not necessarily translate into lots of efficacy in the real world.

RB: I believe you have the highest death rate of covid anywhere in the world right now anyway. Does that mean that this variant is more deadly or is that simply because you don't have enough people vaccinated yet?

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: So it's a very complex mix of factors that explain these terribly high rate of covid deaths. But it's not just Peru. It's real all across the region. Of course, there's being a lot of attention to Brazil in recent months. And of course, it's been a massive tragedy. But really that has been replicated in many different countries and Peru also at a smaller population scale. So it is no surprise that a variant beyond Gamma that originated in Brazil, may emerge somewhere else. And this is what we're seeing now with Lamda. And even if you look at places like Colombia, for instance, they have their own mutation that is becoming more dominant and has mutations. So in a way, because of this very, very high transmission of sars-cov-2 in 2021, Latin America has become this sort of factory of variants. We don't know what's what's in store just yet. As you mentioned, vaccine coverage is quite low in the region. Countries like Chile and [unintelligible] are around 70 percent, but really the rest of the countries are below 20 percent. So with those numbers, we anticipate that we have another wave of cases in the next few weeks, a third wave, if you may call it like that. And we don't know yet if it's going to be caused by Lamda or Gamma or Delta, which just came into the region.

RB: What measures is the government taking to try and slow the spread of this variant or for that matter, any of them?

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: Really the standard safety rules and I guess the main action that the government is taking is to accelerate vaccination as much as possible. But it will be supply is limited, so it will take at least until the end of 2021 to have most of the population vaccinated. So clearly, that is not going to be enough. And we need to keep this distance and have been in place, although three and a half people are certainly tired and yet can relax with all these measures.

RB: Just lastly, do you think that this variant and I mentioned off the top, we are seeing it in a couple of provinces in this country, but do you think that this will become a global variant as well?

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: There's already evidence that it's very capable of going into a new place and causing large transmission chains. We've seen rapid growth not just in Peru, Chile, Argentina, Ecuador, Mexico and many other places in the regions. And now as we export it to more than 30 countries around the world. So it's too early to say that it will become dominant in any of these countries. But it is certainly a possibility like the USA, which is already widespread in 36 states and there's very clear evidence of community transmission. Similar things are happening in Spain and Germany. If it will become the main variant, we don't know yet. We have no way to predict which one is going to win out in the end. The best thing we can do right now is just keep tracking, keep doing genome sequencing month to month and possibly ideally scale our capacity to do so in this region in South America.

RB: Dr. Tsukuyama, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

DR. PABLO TSUKAYAMA: Thank you.

RB: Dr. Pablo Tsukayama is a professor of microbiology at the Cayetano Heredia University in Lima, Peru. Well, the CBC News is next. And then Canada's women's soccer team on the hunt for gold in Tokyo. They've taken down the reigning champs from the U.S. Now they face Sweden for the top prise. It's exciting what this means for growing the game here in six minutes. I'm Rosemary Barton. You're listening to The Current.

Canada's gold medal in women's soccer is a chance to grow the sport at home, says Andrea Neil; hris Nikic smashes record — and stigma — as 1st person with Down syndrome to finish Ironman triathlon

Guests: Andrea Neil, Chris Nikic, Nick Nikic

RB: Hello, I'm Rosemary Barton, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, we return to the CBC podcast, Brainwashed. CIA mind control and the Montreal hospital at the heart of this mystery. But first, Canada's quest for gold on the Olympic soccer pitch.

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Julia Grosso from Vancouver

Unidentified: to win it.

RB: That was Julia Grosso, the 20 year old from Vancouver with the winning penalty shot in the shootout with Sweden that brought Canada its first gold medal in soccer. It's been an incredible morning if you've been watching. Joining me now is Andrea Neil, a member of the Canadian Women's National Team from 1990 to 2007. Good morning, Andrea.

ANDREA NEIL: Good morning to you.

RB: How are you feeling after watching all of that? The stressful, stressful moments.

ANDREA NEIL: So stressful. Having said that, it's a lot more of a gentle ride for me on my couch than it is for many, say, in Japan currently.

RB: Yeah. Are you are you surprised that they managed to pull it off?

ANDREA NEIL: Not at all. You could see that their momentum was building throughout the tournament. And in the last especially two games, there was something in their body language that had changed and a sense of belief. So as they were at the Swedish down today, in different moments, you could just see something within the Canadians eyes. This could absolutely go in their way when it came to the penalty shootout. For me, the belief was in the Canadians, even with a few misses, Stephanie Labi rising up in a way that she did. It was absolutely incredible to watch.

RB: Talk to me about Stephanie Labi, of course, Canada's goaltender. I mean, this is a pressure. This is a pressure cooker moment, particularly, I think, for the goalies. And she she pulled it off. What's what's going to happen to her now? How big is the moment of this? Is this for her?

ANDREA NEIL: Well, and I think brilliantly pulled it off in the way that she how she did it. So had a huge smile on her face, looked at rock solid as far as her, you know, body language and guessing rate on several different occasions where this is going to catapult her. I mean, Canadian can Canada has had a long history of very solid goalkeepers performing at the world level. Now, the notoriety people will remember Stephanie Labe for this and recognise her for this, which sets her apart in that way. And again, it's the way that she did it.

RB: As someone who's had a very long career playing at a top level possible, who played for the Vancouver Whitecaps, who is now a coach, can you walk me through a little bit? What would have been going through their minds, getting ready for those penalty kicks? I would imagine that is not, you know, how any soccer player really wants the game to end. But you're in that position. And how do you sort of cope with that moment if you're one of the people taking the kids?

ANDREA NEIL: It's interesting. This is where you would think youth could go against you, like as far as that experience or lack of experience in games like this, because you cannot simulate something like this. But in this case, the youth,almost, you take the foot off the pedal and you just go for it without hesitation. And in many cases today you saw that. And it wasn't just today, but Jessie Flemming showing up three times in a row was unbelievable. And I think Jessie Fleming say faltering earlier at the penalty spot, say, against the Americans or whatever, maybe they would wouldn't get that opportunity. But She was rock solid, you know, in and showed such the way to walk up and take them. So you saw within a young Canadian, a Canadian example of goal without emotion and just quiet confidence to go for it.

RB: I mean that's an amazing amount of mental strength that you that you could see there from everyone performing today. Let's talk about Christine Sinclair, of course, the captain, the woman who has had a phenomenal career as a soccer player, women or men's. What does this mean for her career? Would this be a good way to end the career? Could you see that this might be the pinnacle, the piece that she had been waiting for? And and what would it mean for her, do you think?

ANDREA NEIL: And that's a great question. And I think, you know, Many athletes will come to a point where they they don't know when to hang it up. And whether or not she's been thinking about this — I'm sure all of the thoughts have been going into this game and she's not thinking about it. But you have to You almost look at the next four years. Can I make it to the next World Cup, so three years? Can I make it to the next Olympics? So you're not just talking year to year, or six-month segments of time. You have to think, "OK, can I make it to the next one?" For Christine to walk away now would be the pinnacle, and everything that she's worked for. She may decide that she's just too tired to continue performing at this level and decide, you know, I want to play a different role, I need to relax for a while. but she does it, she she's done everything up to this point with such how she's done. It has been the incredible thing for me personally.

RB: Yeah, that's great. What does this mean for for soccer here? You know, we like to believe that hockey is our our national sport. And it is. But soccer is still the one that most people are playing and it's, you know, largely more accessible than hockey for cost reasons and all sorts of things. And and Without making this about girls and women, because I think we're at a point now where this is just about a phenomenal soccer team that may inspire others, what would be your hope for what would happen in this country with that?

ANDREA NEIL: From this point, I would think. I just love keeping the dialogue going that this is about football and Canadian football is huge, not about gender. That's old conversations now. And so I think it's extremely valuable for the the kids growing up, not just young girls, but young males. Girls, important to have a tangible example. But this is the number one participation sport in Canada. It's the third most-participated sport as far as FIFA is concerned throughout the world. We have participating here in our country. And I think that this is a tremendous time. Where I would love Canada to go, is a league in Canada to now fill in a gap to bring up more soccer players at a higher level, more coaches, more administrators, more political people on the women's side within our country, and to develop within the infrastructure from that standpoint.

RB: Yeah, I would imagine that the the women you coach at the university level would look at this today and just feel sort of limitless in terms of career possibilities.

ANDREA NEIL: Absolutely, and I think the time is now. Where club soccer has been there in the past, a long time ago for women's national team players in Canada, but not a dedicated domestic league that that allows this to continue. People to continue watching, but in a very tangible way in our own backyard would be absolutely huge. And the continuity of players playing for longer. The game, Christine, 38 years old, still playing.

RB: Oh, my God,.

ANDREA NEIL: This is a life game. Yeah. That that people can participate. I still know. I like soccer moms. My former team-mates, their moms are still playing in their 60s and 70s. Now, that's not me, but that's great for another generation of of people playing the game well into their lives.

RB: Yeah, why not. Right. Just end on this. I know you woke your kid up, your son to watch. Was was he happy he got woken up for it?

ANDREA NEIL: Yeah. I really tried to wake him up like right after the earlier interview and he was just limp. I couldn't do it, but I did when it came to the extra time. I grabbed him out of it so I was able to watch it. It was

RB: perfect. Well, thanks for watching with us and talking to us after the big win. It's a big moment for the country and for soccer. Andrea Neil, thank you so much.

ANDREA NEIL: Thank you. And honour to share in it.

Chris Nikic smashes record — and stigma — as 1st person with Down syndrome to finish Ironman triathlon

Guests: Chris Nikic, Nick Nikic

RB: Andrew Neil was a member of the Canada Women's National Team from 1990 to 2007, and she joined me from Vancouver. I'm Rosemary Barton, and you're listening to The Current. Crossing the finish line at the Ironman triathlon is a huge achievement, an extreme test of both physical and mental endurance. But on top of the gruelling swim cycle and marathon race, one athlete has a new record. 21 year old Chris Nikic became the first person with Down syndrome to compete in and complete the race. I spoke with Chris and his father, Nick, last November from their home near Orlando, Florida. Here's our conversation.

CHRIS: Hi, nice to be here.

RB: Nice to meet you, Chris. That was that moment, I think, at the end there. How were you feeling when you finally crossed the finish line?

CHRIS: I feel fine, my mom wasn't there, she sent me angels.

RB: your mom wasn't there, is that we were saying?

NICK: Yes, she sent angels to protect him.

RB: Awe, Nick, what was it like for you to see Chris cross the finish line?

NICK: It was amazing. It was a sense of peace because I believed and saw what he's capable of. And he showed us that he could be independent, he could take care of himself, and that he can do Ironman, he could do anything. So it was just an amazing feeling.

RB: Yeah. I mean, people should know that that Chris, that you finished it in 16 hours, 46 minutes and nine seconds, which is under 14 minutes under the 17 hour Cut-Off time. How hard is it?

CHRIS: The bike, the seat hurt, I sit there for hours.

NICK: The seat hurts for eight hours.

RB: Your butt goes numb, Chris.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah. He had a bike crash, ant bites.

NICK: Fire ant bites. Other than that it was a good race.

RB: I read about that. So you and you also get off your bike to take a drink of water, too. And so that's when the fire ants got you there.

NICK: Oh, yeah. He has to get off in order to take nutrition and he's standing on an ant pile. And by the time he was done taking the situation, they realised they were ants all over him eating, biting him up. And that when they had to clean them up.

RB: That's bad luck. Did you at any point, Chris, feel like you should give up?

CHRIS: No.

NICK: Why don't you quit?

CHRIS: Because its my dream.

NICK: Because of your dreams, you want to tell her about your dreams?

CHRIS: The dream is based on [unintelligible], to own a car, to marry a smking hot blond.

RB: We have to make sure everyone heard that last part. You said you want to marry a smoking hot blonde wife

NICK: Yes. His mom. He wants my house, my car, and he wants a smoking hot blonde like his mother. So he wants my life.

RB: Those are pretty good goals. Those are pretty good goals, Chris.

NICK: He's laughing.

RB: Well, Chris, I said I was going to embarrass you a little bit. So let me let me do that now. I did look at the pictures of you. You're pretty buff.

CHRIS: [Laughs]

RB: How hard was the training? Because this is reall,y this is really incredible to to think about doing this much in one go that. How did you approach the training? I'll ask you, Chris, and then you Nick.

CHRIS: I am proud, [unintelligible].

RB: So one percent.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah.

RB: Two hours of sit ups? Oh my God.

NICK: So everything for him is about just progressive improvement, one percent a day every day for two years. That's how he got from from Zero to Iron Man. He just stayed steady. He doesn't compromise. He doesn't complain. He doesn't push back. He just every day he looks at what he did the day before, the week before. And he just he works a little bit harder to just get a little bit better. And his success is really the culmination of consistent effort over two years.

RB: And why the one percent better, Nick, why did you why did you both decide that that was the best way to approach this?

NICK: Well, because psychologically, nobody likes pain and one percent improvement is just enough to improve without actually causing any physical pain because you're not doing much more than you've done before. So you don't have muscle soreness, you don't have mental fatigue, you don't have any of the things associated when you push too hard. And so we decided that we were going to focus on this thing long term, make it fun, make it gradual and make it a permanent lifestyle habit. And so by eliminating the pain that's associated with the way most people train, Chris was able to sustain the effort for a longer period of time. And then the momentum kicked in. The compounding effect kicked in. And so he's literally able to train and develop without creating any short term pain or any long term residual pain. Even after the Ironman, by the next day, two days later, he was fine because he's been trained that way.

RB: That's great, Chris. And and what is your favourite exercise to do? I don't know. Out of the three, the Ironman ones, or maybe there's something else that you like to do or not.

CHRIS: I like to do the run.

NICK: Tell her why you like to run better.

CHRIS: [Unintelligible]

NICK: Stop talking about your but?

CHRIS: Well, it's the truth.

NICK: Your own radio. You can't talk about but

RB: Well, I get it. I get it. It's less intense on the but. I got it.

CHRIS: Thank you.

RB: You know, what was the goal here other than to, you know, give make sure Chris had stays healthy and has something that he loves to do, which he clearly does. What was the what was the actual goal?

NICK: Well, when we first started, the real goal was just getting in shape and getting involved in the community or getting involved with other other athletes and Special Olympics. So it was just to make some friends and get in shape. And that's all we did for the first year. And then after the first year, all of a sudden you start talking about these big dreams of living independently and all these other things that he wanted in life. And then I said, well, Chris, so we got to do something big in order to get such big dreams. And that's when we started thinking about what could he do to make a living and the concept of doing public speaking, which he did last year. And he was just he hit a home run. We said, well, what if he did something amazing that would give him a story to tell? That would be inspirational. And that's how Iron Man came along. We said, look, big dreams need big goals. Yeah. And so we set the goals for him to do an Ironman and started training with the idea for him to be independent, make his own living. But also now it's turned into something much bigger, which is a platform for him to be able to share with others like him and parents like me and my wife, to be able to give us all some hope that things are amazing, things are possible for our kids. And so for him, it started out as a personal goal and a personal dream. But it's morphed into something much bigger where he now has a purpose and a platform in order to make a difference with other people like him.

RB: And Chris, did you realise that was happening or were you just training to do a race or did you think this would be something bigger, something better than that?

[Unintelligible] Sometimes I don't like to train on the weekends.

CHRIS: he started reading all these messages from parents like us that said he's a hero to their children and they want their children to be like him. And over a period of months, all of those messages really started to get to him and started to transform his vision of what was going on.

RB: Did you ever think that you would be that kind of person, Chris, that you would be that important for other kids out there?

CHRIS: I think so.

NICK: So now you believe it.

RB: You're confident? I like that. Nick, was was Chris always athletic growing up or, you know, or and I guess this determined because this is what this is really about, this race. It's not just being athletic. It's been having such strong will.

NICK: Yeah, well, it's interesting because he's always been involved in sports. He loves sports, but never we never saw any real athletic ability. In fact, when he first started the triathlon a little over two years ago, the first race for Special Olympics, there were four athletes and Chris finished last. So he was the least likely to actually achieve this. He didn't have any athletic ability. He didn't have any determination. What happened over the last two years, and this is the good news for everybody, is he was able to develop both through perseverance and hard work and consistent improvement. Over time, he was able to develop mental toughness. He was able to develop physical toughness. And he was able to develop, you know, muscles and physical abilities that we never thought were possible. And then even more valuable at this point, what we're seeing through all these interviews as he's talking to people, his cognitive ability is starting to develop in a way we never thought possible. And so now he's just having conversations and interviews with people, something he's never been able to do before. But over the last couple, three months, we've seen amazing progress. And our objective for the next couple of years is to really test the limits on the cognitive side, to see how the physical and the cognitive come together, because honestly, our kids with Down syndrome, you know, they're all the perceptions are they can't do anything physically and they can't do anything intellectually. And I think Chris is going to, you know, change a lot of those perceptions. But they're all being changed through hard work, through effort to perseverance. And that came a little bit at a time, one percent of the time. I know people look at the end story, but really what they should look at is the progression of it. And we'd love to share more of that to show them that, look, he made very little progress in the first year, but he built a foundation. And the more he stuck with it, the more progress he made. But it didn't happen overnight. It came very slowly.

RB: Chris, as the first person with Down syndrome to complete the Ironman, what does that mean to you? I mean, do you do you think about that and what that means to you,

CHRIS: I am Ironman family.

CHRIS: He's part of the Ironman family. Yeah. Yes. He went to a party, big party for him. That's really the most important thing to him being included. The parties the, ladies, the fun, really. It's about inclusion for him. It's about feeling like he's welcomed and that's really what he's communicating.

RB: Nick, what does it mean for you that that your son was able to do this? I mean, beyond the things that you've said about his progress and his physical ability, but emotionally, what does it mean for you?

NICK: Yeah, emotionally, it means, you know, my wife and I can be a little more peace. It means parents like us could be a little more at peace, realising what's possible. And it really is one of those things that most most parents take for granted, you know, because their kids are going to be independent and take care of themselves, but not for families like us who have children with special needs. It's a whole different world. And so what it means is that a different world of possibility has opened up for us.

RB: And Chris, what about what about these goals? You know, get a car, get a house or how far away how close are you to those things?

CHRIS: The future?

NICK: Well, I'll tell her when you're buying your car.

CHRIS: On Saturday.

RB: Saturday.

NICK: And he's been offered public speaking engagements and contracts with big companies, so he might be close to making enough money to buy a house. And then where are you with that hot blonde? Are you close?

CHRIS: I think so.

NICK: You think so. I'll meet them.

RB: Oh, well, go back to the car for a minute. What are you buying?

CHRIS: A white care

NICK: call a white car, a Chevy.

RB: Chevy. That's practical. Good. And do you know do you already know how to drive or you have to learn to drive?

NICK: No, not. Next up, we're going to learn how to drive.

RB: What what are you looking forward to next in your life, Chris? I like I mean, are you going to keep doing these kinds of competitions? I guess so.

CHRIS: Yeah.

NICK: What's the next stop.

CHRIS: Ironman.

RB: fantastic.

NICK: And then what did you just get invited to today?

CHRIS: I just got to a contract offer.

NICK: But what about the USA Games?

CHRIS: [Unintelligible].

NICK: USA Special Olympics Games in 2022 for North America.

RB: Oh! Amazing. You must be thrilled, Chris.

CHRIS: I am.

RB: What did you do with your medal? I think you get a medal at the end of the Ironman,

CHRIS: I gave it to my mom.

RB: Oh, that's pretty nice, Chris.

CHRIS: Yeah.

RB: This has been a very inspiring story. I hope you both know how much people need to hear things like this right now. So it couldn't be better timed.

NICK: Thank you. Thank you for inviting us.

RB: Thank you. And hey, Chris, you be careful driving. Well, good luck with the car purchase and good luck finding the hot blonde wife.

CHRIS: Thanks.

RB: OK, I'm going to follow you on Instagram to keep track on all that.

NICK: Thank you so much.

RB: OK, congratulations to both of you. Thanks.

NICK: Good day.

CHRIS: Thanks.

RB: I forgot how lovely that conversation was when we had it back in November. Chris Nikic is the first person with Down syndrome to finish the Ironman triathlon. Nick Nikic is his father. We chatted with Chris's dad just this week to see how the training's been going since then, he says. Chris completed in a half Ironman in Hawaii this June. He'll be doing the full Hawaii Ironman in October. He's also training for the New York City Marathon in November. An impressive guy. Coming up after your regional update, the CIA's controversial mind control experiments and the Canadian lives forever changed in the name of science. I'm Rosemary Barton, and you were listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

Brainwashed – Episode 4

RB: I'm Rosemary Barton, and this is The Current. We're continuing the original CBC podcast Brainwashed with Michelle Shephard. It's an investigative series into the CIA's covert experiments in mind control from the Cold War and M-K-ULTRA to the so-called War on Terror and its connection to Canada. After discovering they were unwitting victims of experiments, nine patients of Dr. Ewen Cameron's set out to sue the CIA for what happened to them at the Allan Memorial Hospital in Montreal. Today, the Herculean task of suing one of the most powerful intelligence agencies in the world.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIC MALLEY: Good evening. I'm Eric Malley. Four years ago, there were some startling revelations about the activities of the CIA in Canada. The American Intelligence Agency had paid for a series of brainwashing experiments under a project codenamed MK Ultra. Nine Canadians are now suing the US government for a million dollars apiece.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: It's 1984, the year that is not the dystopian state of affairs, although the details about Michael tried to take a page right out of George Orwell's novel.

ERIC MALLEY: Their lives were disrupted forever as a result of the brainwashing.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: This is the CBC's investigative programme, the Fifth Estate.

ERIC MALLEY: In Winnipeg, Bell also spends a lot of time tending her plants. It's one of the few hobbies she has left. She used to devour books and write long letters. Now she can't concentrate on a book for more than a single page, and writing a letter is beyond her.

VELMA: It was just a terrible night and I just felt that I could never go back to what I'd been.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: When news broke about MK ULTRA in the late 1970s, thanks to the dogged journalism of John Marx and other American journalists, Val Orlikow and her husband David, were paying close attention.

DAVID ORLIKOW: As a result of a major story in The New York Times in August 1977.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: That's David Ullico.

DAVID ORLIKOW: Here is a situation in which a U.S. agency came into Canada, funded an experiment in Canada, which had very serious effects, adverse effects on Canadian.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: David or Lako wasn't just any Canadian. He was a member of parliament. But his interest in this case, it wasn't political. It was personal. His wife, Welma, who friends called Bell, had been a patient at Montreal's Allan Memorial Institute, a patient of Dr. Ewen Cameron's.

VELMA: There's an awful feeling to realise when I found this out that the man whom I had thought cared about what happened to me didn't give a damn and. I was a fly, just a fly.

VELMA: Velma was devastated when she heard about the CIA's role in Dr. Cameron's work. She was angry, too. She wanted answers. She wanted justice not just from the Canadian institutions involved, but the American government to the CIA.

DAVID ORLIKOW: She said she wanted to sue the CIA. I said, you're crazy. How can the hit from Winnipeg sue the CIA?

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: How could the Orlikows, just a couple of self-described techs from Winnipeg take on one of the world's most powerful intelligence agencies, because to go after the CIA in those days, maybe you did need to be a little crazy or at least be a fighter and be ready for a drawn out and dirty war. I'm Michelle Shephard, and this is Brainwashed episode four, Suing the CIA.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Jim, just start by having you introduce yourself and tell me who you are.

JIM TURNER: Yeah, I'm Jim Turner. I'm a retired lawyer who represented nine Canadians in a lawsuit against the United States government based on unwitting experimental brainwashing procedures.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Jim Turner was the junior attorney on the case against the CIA. He worked alongside legendary American civil rights lawyer Joseph Roe. Rowe had represented writers during the communist witch hunts and defended those who fought for voting rights and desegregation. He was one of the foremost U.S. civil rights attorneys of his time.

DAVID ORLIKOW: and he brought that humanity to all aspects of the practise of law. But that's not to say that he was some kind of bleeding heart man, was a fighter.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: David and Velma or Lako had found their fighter.

JIM TURNER: Mr. Orlikow, who said, you got to help me. My wife was admitted to the Al Memorial Institute. It was a bout of postpartum depression and she's never the same. Afterwards, David and Velma Orlock, who came to Washington after we were able to tell them that there was a legal way to bring suit and we met in our offices for several hours. They're both very impressive people, clearly telling the absolute truth about horrible, horrible experiences that they both had. So they were very sympathetic folks to deal with.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: How did you go about building this case?

JIM TURNER: We start with David Orlikow and Velma Orlikow, but they're not by themselves. There are other people who were at the Memorial Institute during the the time frame when CIA funding ran to it. So with David's help, we found eight other people and families who had been impacted.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Dr. Harvey Weinstein, whose father, Lou, had been a patient at the Allen was one of the eight other people.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN: Think it was a Sunday morning. I was sitting and reading The New York Times. And on the left hand page, there was an article that talked about this CIA project called MK Ultra. And one of the places that was mentioned was the Allan Memorial Institute. And in the article, it talked about the fact that some Washington lawyers were going to bring a case against the CIA.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Once Harvey convinced his dad to take part in the lawsuit, he travelled to Washington to meet Joe Rowe.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN: It was awesome, if I can use the word in its pure sense, he was a big man and very dignified. And I was cowed, frankly, when I met him here. I was, you know, the highest, quote, survivor or victim or however you want to describe that. And I needed someone to help me. And in a sense, he became almost a not a pseudo father, persay, but a mentor, someone who could say, you know, the law can be on your side and I'm here to help you and we're going to work on this. And so I felt as though I had a collaborator that I was not alone, that erro and turned myself were a team. And that's the way it felt for the next eight years.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Eight years.

NEWSCASTER: The suit filed 18 months ago was delayed by a United States government motion... Tomorrow. Lawyers for the CIA will go before the judge in this case and ask for a delay... And the government of the United States moved to dismiss on various technical grounds... The judge waited over a year to make a decision

DAVID ORLIKOW: from the date that we filed this suit in December of 1980. There has been a studied strategy, in my estimation, of delaying and stonewalling every step in the litigation so that the elderly and frail plaintiffs will just disappear.

NEWSCASTER: A landmark case in which the Canadian plaintiffs charged the Central Intelligence Agency with a reckless disregard for their lives. Now the agency has won yet another delay. The Canadians lawyer accused the CIA of deliberately stalling.

JIM TURNER: We had some bad luck, not only in the defendant, which is the CIA, an institution that can misuse national security to hide misconduct, but we also had some bad luck in our drawer of our judge. It wasn't a bad judge. He just wouldn't decide anything. And it took an inordinate amount of time to get simple motions resolved. And all this is against a backdrop of an elderly lead counsel. You know, Joe wasn't a spring chicken at this point, you know. Yes, he was in his 70s and or was a part of this trying to weed out Joe's biological clock.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Until he could. Essentially, what Turner and Rowe needed to prove was that the CIA knew the experiments were incredibly dangerous and possibly life threatening, and that the agency should have known that those in charge of MKUltra had a track record of reckless actions that risked lives. This went back to the death of Frank Olson, the CIA biochemist who had been slipped LSD by his colleagues and then days later either jumped or was pushed from a New York hotel window.

JIM TURNER: There was negligence throughout the operation, but to me, identifying the key actors at the CIA made the negligence just irrefutable because it was the same two individuals who were involved in the Ohlson death. Sidney Gotlieb and Robert Brook, who had signed off on the funding for Cameron to put it in kind of crude terms after they killed Olsen, they were given a green light to continue on with the work and hurt more people across the country and across the border into Canada. So that was key. The second is this is a form of malpractice is what went on in Montreal. And you have to have what's called a standard of care legally to establish malpractice. So we did research and found that standard of care embodied in the Nuremberg Code. In the first principle, the very first principle of the Nuremberg Code is the informed consent of the experimental subject is essential. There is no record that anybody in the group of people we represented ever consented to be part of any experiment at the Almario Institute.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Dr. Harvey Weinstein soon became more than just the son of one of the nine plaintiffs in the case. He was a psychiatrist, the same profession as Dr. Cameron, and he brought that valuable perspective, but his expertise went much further.

JIM TURNER: Harvey is in a unique position to provide truly expert assistance to us in assembling the case. In fact, Harvey indefatigable researcher and found at the archives of the American Psychiatric Association a speech where Cameron actually admits that they were testing brainwashing, they were playing with brainwashing techniques at the Memorial Institute.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: But it was vital evidence, the admission that what happened to these patients at the island was not about treating their psychiatric ailments, but about brainwashing experiments. Meanwhile, Rowe and Turner were deposing the top CIA brass that included Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA's chemist, the one Stephen Kinzer calls the poisoner in chief.

JIM TURNER: We interrogated Gottlieb for three days and he was you got to understand, Gottlieb was an assassin. One of his first jobs at the agency was to go to the Congo with anthrax to try to assassinate Patrice Lumumba. This is not the usual kind of witness that you interrogate. And he was completely unrepentant. And what Gottlieb admitted was they didn't lift a finger to make sure the work they were funding was done ethically, and he also said quite openly that the Ohlson death was something that he regretted very much. But it just happens.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Up next was John Gettinger, the CIA's chief psychologist for clandestine services.

JIM TURNER: John Gettinger was the programme officer for the camera and work when it first began. And before we went out to depose Gettinger, the CIA had repeatedly taken the position that Cameron came to them, that he was unsolicited, that it was just out of the blue, that Cameron came to the CIA front in New York and asked for funding. When we deposed Gettinger, we asked him, how did you get to be chairman? Well, we were interested in the work he was doing. So. So did Cameron come to you? Oh, no. We went to him and solicited an application and that just exploded one of the principal defences that the CIA had been asserting through the early years of the litigation.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: During this time Raul and Turner reached out to Canada's embassy in Washington for assistance. Surely a sovereign nation would be outraged that the CIA funded the torture of its citizens on its own soil. They assumed the Canadian government would help them build their case. But they assumed wrong.

JIM TURNER: I heard about it, I think, first from the ambassador to whom I was very close,

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Jeremy Kinsman was a young Canadian diplomat based in Washington when the lawsuit against the CIA first got underway.

JIM TURNER: I was the minister for political affairs at the Canadian embassy, and it's in that position. I was in charge of all political, international relations, affairs, security, intelligence, legal affairs

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: that Canada's ambassador to Washington was Alan Gottlieb. And I know it's a bit confusing to introduce another Gotlieb into the story. Sidney Gottlieb was the CIA chemist who created MK Ultra. There's no relation between the two. Ambassador Gottlieb, like David, or also was also from Winnipeg.

JIM TURNER: Alan was very devoted to his Winnipeg origins and always had an ear for anybody from Winnipeg and particularly anybody, I'll say, but the grievance.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: So at the embassy, Jeremy Kinsman became the point person on the MK Ultra file and eventually he went to lunch with Joe RAUL.

JIM TURNER: I'm, Michelle, I have to confess, I'm a progressive and we progressive have our heroes. And Joe Raul was to me a really effective advocate of civil liberties in the United States, taking on a lot of cases. So I, I paid a lot of deference to him. He had a sense of indignation about this case. He certainly he wanted me to share that indignation, but he wanted the Canadian government to share the indignation.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: So he basically expected the Canadian government to stand up for its citizens in this.

JIM TURNER: You bet. And I kind of expected it to you know, I thought that's what we were all working for. And so we proceeded from there. And it was a great disappointment to me that not everybody felt that way.

JIM TURNER: Early on when we were dealing with Jeremy Kinsman and the folks at the embassy here in Washington. The Canadian government was very supportive and helped us greatly to secure information and gave us active support and trying to persuade the CIA to do right by these people. That changed overnight when evidence that the CIA was not the only funding source for Dr. Cameron came to light. It turns out that the Canadian government, too, had been giving Cameron financial support.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Over a period of three years, the CIA, through its front organisation, sent more than 60000 U.S. to Dr. Cameron, which is just over half a million dollars today. But a Vancouver journalist uncovered internal government documents that showed Canada had provided even more funding to Cameron than the CIA. The lead CIA lawyer told a reporter that when the case got to trial, he would, quote, wrap the Canadian government's involvement around Joe Raul's neck.

JIM TURNER: So as soon as that became public, it was like a night and day change in approach. I believe the ambassador, Alan Gottlieb, was the one that made it clear to us that the days of assistance were over.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: The Canadian government was not only not interested in helping build a case against the CIA, they were worried, worries that they could now be sued as well. So Canada's justice minister asked George Cooper, a Halifax lawyer and former Conservative MP, to investigate whether Canada's funding of Dr Cameron could be considered illegal or improper. But Cooper was instructed to only interview government officials. Dr. Cameron had already died, and none of Dr. Cameron's colleagues nor his patients or their families were even contacted. The Cooper report was publicly released in May 1986. He found that Canada had, quote, no legal or moral responsibility for the activities of Dr Ewen Cameron. He let the CIA off the hook to writing that the agency was only involved in funding and not involved in instigating, directing and controlling Cameron's work. This is rousse reaction at the time the report was released.

JIM TURNER: Now, everything that the CIA has said to me is mouthed by Cooper. This could have been written by the CIA. I'm not saying it was because I don't know, but it certainly could have been written by the CIA. Well,no matter who wrote it...

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: Ottawa had once threatened to take the U.S. to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, arguing that M.K. Ultra's experiments conducted in Montreal violated Canada's sovereignty. Now, this Canadian report, which essentially exonerated the CIA, was being used by the agency in a final effort to defeat the case, to try and get a better understanding of what was going on behind the scenes at the time. We submitted access to information requests to the Canadian government and we found this. A letter to the secretary of state of external affairs from a legal adviser, I read it to Turner. So this would be February 13th. 1986. And its subject is the or cold case. Can the Cooper report be made public? And it says, quote, The conclusions of the Cooper report, if they become public, could indeed have a negative effect on the Canadian plaintiffs case. It is possible and indeed likely that the report may be seen in some quarters as deliberate sabotage. Joe Raul and his clients might go so far as to accuse the Canadian government of collusion with the U.S. government in this matter. When the case against the CIA finally wrapped up, it was thanks in large part to politics, there were no Hollywood? S closing remarks to the court, no speeches or banging of a gavel that would reverberate beyond the courtroom. Was the case, like so many other litigations ended in a settlement, the CIA paid about 70000 U.S. to each claimant. Canada threw in another 20,000 each to help cover legal costs.

JIM TURNER: When you win a case like the Orlando case, it's always bittersweet because there's always a feeling you might have been able to get a little bit more, but you have to be realistic about these things. The problem is that our clients are victims for life. You know, I'm not a lawyer representing them for life so I can walk away from this and do other things, which I did, but. There's still a piece of my soul that feels the hurt of Valerica. Louis Weinstein and Harvey Weinstein, Mary Mirro, Josh Page, Robert Logi, Florence Lango, Ben and all the other people we weren't able to include in the lawsuit. These were horrible things were done.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: The lawsuit focussed on only nine patients, but there were more than 100 women and men subjected to Dr. Cameron's extreme experiments.

VOICE 1: You have to remember that when you take a public interest case, you have to balance the public interest and the private interests like this, I spent my life trying to balance that zero. You can't take human beings like this and say they have to continue to suffer. They've suffered a great deal. I think we got enough for the public. Goodness. Look, they're paying almost a million Canadian. That is pretty close to an admission of guilt. They won't say so. The CIA. I'll just say I'm a big nuisance. But you don't pay almost a million Canadian if you don't really feel that you were at fault.

VELMA: I do know that the CIA is great and our branch is better than nothing.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: The lead plaintiff, Val Orlikow.

VELMA: You see, I would have liked to have had them convicted in some way. I think that the settlement is an amount of money. I don't think it's any amount of money to the CIA. I just think they've selectively off the sleeve of their jacket. You know, I didn't go in this for money. I went in this because I thought it was an outrageous thing that happened and I wanted to do something about it. And so at least we have come this far.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: None of the victims families were really ever entirely satisfied with the settlement.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN: And Turner called and said, well, Leapster has offered something. There will be a settlement offer.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: including Dr. Harvey Weinstein.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN: Jim and I had sort of a dispute about this. And basically he said to me that there really was no choice and that some of the people were older and my father was older and this was their last chance. And so I had to go along with it. I was appalled, actually, for two reasons. One was because the amount of the settlement was given the fact that my father never worked again after age 48 and the fact that we'd lost everything and the fact that I knew some of the other people who had been affected were losing their homes and had no money, it was painful for me to see what the settlement was. The second thing was if it was settled out of court, then there was no accountability. Then there was no precedent then this could happen again, and that is still something that is very painful to me.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: This could happen again when the existence of MKUltra was first made public, the CIA was happy to have it dismissed as a couple of mad scientists experimenting with LSD crazy, fearful times in America. It was during that Cold War. Strange things happened. Nothing really to see here. Time to move on. But today, it's a powerful tool to have an intelligence agency figure out how to break down a person's mind. You can call it what you wanted, justified in complicated ways. But at its core, it's not really just torture.

HARVEY WEINSTEIN: The techniques that were done at the time became used in torture techniques around the world. They were used in Argentina. There used to be in Central America, there is in Northern Ireland by the British against the supposed IRA terrorists. People certainly must be aware of Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.

RB: We'll have that episode for you next week. That is our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q After 60 years in the music business, Barbra Streisand is opening her personal archives and sharing unreleased songs that many didn't even know existed. Don't Miss Babs coming up on cue this morning. And don't forget CBC, listen is the free app that lets you discover the very best in Canadian audio from CBC Radio, CBC podcasts and CBC music. You can listen to The Current live from anywhere on your phone or tablet or catch up on our show. Highlights on demand any time. My thanks to the whole team at The Current this week for making my job so easy and fun. I'm Rosemary Barton. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a good weekend.

The Current Transcript for August 6, 2021

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Tackling coronavirus variants around the world

Canada's gold medal in women's soccer is a chance to grow the sport at home, says Andrea Neil; hris Nikic smashes record — and stigma — as 1st person with Down syndrome to finish Ironman triathlon

Chris Nikic smashes record — and stigma — as 1st person with Down syndrome to finish Ironman triathlon

Brainwashed – Episode 4

Full Text Transcript for Friday August 6, 2021

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