Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2022

The Current Transcript for August 16, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

It's hard to express that especially becomes very, very hard. What I know that we could avoid the situation. What? I know that only if some selfish leaders in the world did not prioritise their own interests over the interests of another people, another group, another nation.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: It has been a year since the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan. For those who fled, there remains a deep sadness and guilt over the loss of their home and what they left behind. In 30 minutes, we'll continue our special series, Afghanistan A Year Under the Taliban. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

We need to see an evolution in the laws and the way that we deal with these groups. They need to be exposed. And I think when that happens, that it will become much more stigmatised to be a part of it.

MS: The final episode of my CBC podcast, White Hot Hate. That's in an hour. But first, a potentially life saving therapy is giving one family hope for their son's future. Good morning. I'm Michelle Shephard in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Ground-breaking clinical trial offers hope for Toronto boy diagnosed with rare genetic disorder

Guests: Terry Pirovolakis, Dr. Jim Dowling

SOUNDCLIP

We can work on moving up the stairs. Ready? Push, push, push. Nice. Good job. Nice. Moving your hands there, Michael. That way you can catch up, buddy. Good work.

MS: That's from a physical therapy session for Michael Pirovolakis. He has two of those hour long sessions every day. Michael is four years old and the only child known in Canada to have spastic paraplegia Type 50 or SPG 50. It's an ultra rare neurodegenerative disease that's slowly paralysing him. But Michael may be one step closer to recovery. This spring, SickKids Hospital conducted its first ever one child clinical trial on Michael, a specialised gene therapy delivered through a single injection. It took his family four years of fundraising and $3 million to get to this point. Terry Pirovolakis is Michael's father and the founder of Foundation Cure, SPG 50. Terry, thank you for joining me this morning.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Thank you for having me on.

MS: We just heard a sweet little clip about what Michael's been going through, what physical therapy is like for him. Can you describe what it's been like to watch Michael over these past few months since he's received that injection, which I believe was just in March?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Yeah. I mean, we were in Europe for most of the time. My wife actually, when we you know, because our children didn't have three years of lockdown and everything else. I took them there. But it's pretty amazing to see Michael working so hard and trying, but unfortunately, because he's gaining a bit of weight on top of that, it's a bit harder on him as well. So it's it's amazing to see it. But at the same time, we're like, oh, this poor little kid is gaining all this way. How is he doing these therapies every day, all day long?

MS: And is the weight because of the injection part of the.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: It's part of the drugs that he's needed to protect him from the effects of gene therapy.

MS: Okay. And how has the SPG 50 affected his his development generally for those who don't know the disease?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Yeah. So basically, Michael, at this point in time has the mentality of a one year old or mental capacity of one year old. He's spastic, which means he has a stiffness in his ankles, in his feet, you know, basic things like, you know, feeding himself. He can't lift a spoon. He can't, you know, fork food. Those are the kind of things that he's not able to do. He can't walk independently. He can walk in a walker. Right. But, you know, we are seeing some gains, which is the problem is, is it the drugs that he's on to protect them from the gene therapy? Is it the gene therapy itself? Is it him ageing and just, you know, growing up as well? Right. It's hard to tell if what it is that we're seeing at this point. We're being overly optimistic.

MS: Right. Right. And take me back to the day where you got the diagnosis. I mean, not to use the cliche, but it's every parent's nightmare when you're told this is what he has, a disease I'm sure you've never heard of. Tell me what was like that day.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: It was the most devastating day in my life. I think I actually had PTSD from actually that day. And it wasn't that it was given in a bad way. It was just that hearing that your child will never, you know, grow up to be normal and have these terrible things happen to him. It was devastating. But we went home. We had a couple of days of, you know, crying individually and and but then we got over it and we we moved on.

MS: But at the time, you were told there's really nothing we can we can do about that. When you heard that, where did you take it from there?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Pretty much two days after that, we met a family in Boston that had another similar disease. And they were saying how their child is doing and they were talking about how they're working towards gene therapy. And from there, I just, you know, started down the rabbit hole of, you know, is it what type of therapy should we do? The Michael, what should we look at? And then I went to a conference in Boston and I met six of the seven world experts in gene therapy. And then we flew to London, England. We met the seventh. And then from there we decided that the path would be gene therapy and we found the world experts and created this crazy drug.

MS: And I think I remember in one of your interviews, you said you you think you read 100,000.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Articles in the first month? Probably yeah.

MS: Wow.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: I was down the rabbit hole big time.

MS: Yeah, absolutely. And part of this effort, I understand, brought you to Texas, to Dr. Steven Gray. We talked to Dr. Gray, and here's what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

Terry's personality is infectious and and he's relentless. The expression is moving mountains. But like he really did, he got so many people to contribute to this effort just by asking. And he's been able to do things that I don't know how he does it.

MS: And we'll get to that issue of the fundraising and all you did there. But but first, tell me, how does Dr. Grey fit into Michael story?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Dr. Gray and Dr. Chan, the two individuals that created Michael's, they're our heroes. I mean, beyond what they did for my family, they've done it for 30 other diseases that they're working on. You know, the first disease that I heard of was a disease called giant donor apathy, which is a gene therapy that they created that was at the NIH for children that were similar resolving into process. And that kind of led me down the path of where we need to go. I cannot say greater things for those individuals. I mean, even during the pandemic, they were going in and making sure that our our study continued.

MS: That's right. Because so many shut down.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Shut down.

MS: Yeah. I want to bring in another important person in Michael's care. Dr. Jim Dowling is a clinician scientist, focussed on gene therapy, on discovery and gene therapy at SickKids Hospital. And he's the lead doctor on Michael's clinical trial. Thanks for joining us.

DR. JIM DOWLING: Great. Thank you for having me.

MS: Can you explain a little bit what this one or dose therapy that Michael has received does?

DR. JIM DOWLING: Sure. So gene therapy in general is a therapy that uses some kind of delivery mechanism to bring a gene to the body. In this case, what we're talking about is gene replacement therapy, where Michael has an underlying gene mutation in a gene called AP4M1, which makes a protein, AP4M1 protein. And because of the mutation, does that make any of that protein? And so the idea is, if you could replace that protein, hopefully that would then replace the function that's being lost. And the way that one does that is to use gene therapy that brings the gene back again to make the protein again.

MS: It's so amazing when you just hear that it's just one dose.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: One dose.

MS: So there's no follow up to it. It's just that that one dose works in that.

DR. JIM DOWLING: And so that part of that is because of how long we think gene therapy can last. So once the gene has been reintroduced, it should continue to make the the protein for many, many years. The other part of it is actually a flip side part, which is because of the way the immune system responds to something like a gene therapy. At this point, one can only get one dose because a second dose would promote a very strong immune reaction.

MS: Go ahead, Terry.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Right. And that's one of the reasons why it's such a fine line, because you only get one shot. So if you do too little, it does nothing. If you do too much, it causes adverse effects. Right. So it's like this very fine line. And that's why these studies that Dr. Gray and Dr. Chang are doing and the safety studies are so important because if you if you missed that window, you just can't go back.

MS: And knowing those risks, that must have been so hard for you to make the decision to do this therapy.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: I mean, if you're one of the patients that sit down and read the informed consent, you know, it's one thing. But when you're sitting there and you're and, you know, all the animal studies, all the safety that's happened and everything it was, we were trying to decide, do we do this? Do we not do this? Yeah. But the reality is that the the potential of gene therapy outweighed the risks.

MS: And, Dr. Dowling, in terms of what this could mean for other rare genetic diseases, what are your hopes for that?

DR. JIM DOWLING: So, I mean, our hope is that this is just the tip of the iceberg that, you know, as Terry was explaining, you know, unfortunately, as somebody who sees a lot of families with patients with rare disease, I'm having to deliver that news on a weekly basis. You know, your child has this condition. We don't currently have any treatment for that. And to think of an age where I can tell that family actually we can make a treatment or we have a treatment that we could then give your child. So I think for me, not only, you know, this represents two things, the opportunity to help Michael and hopefully to use that information and use that knowledge to now help as many kids with rare disease as we can.

MS: And this a question maybe for both of you, but I'll start with you, Dr. Dowling. I understand there's a handful of doses, other doses of this experimental drug. What will happen with those?

DR. JIM DOWLING: So I'll pass it over to Terry. To take most of this. But the plan in the hope is that those will now be part of a larger clinical trial that will be run and organised in the United States.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: So yes, so what happened was when we the $3.5 million that we raised was enough to make three doses, Michael's and two more. And when we started this journey, it was always curie SPG 50 but a journey to cure. Michael So the underlying factor was We're trying to save my son, but we always had this promise internally that we would save more children. So a company called Columbus Children's Foundation and Biogen, they're the manufacturer of the drug. They agreed that every time they had an empty slot or someone cancelled that they would manufacture more drug. So at this point in time, we have six doses available and there's more doses being made, which we think about ten will be in total. On Thursday last week, the FDA gave us clinical trial approval to start in the U.S. for clinical for clinical trial. And our goal is to start not. However, in November of this year, dosing the second patient.

MS: It does sound like quite a rare disease. Have you been in touch with many parents, other parents facing what you are?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's 87, I think the latest number is right. I know about 25 of them because they're scattered all over the world. But I can tell you every day, I would say every at least once a week I get a phone call from a rare disease parent being diagnosed with some sort of disease. We're having 30 families right now do some sort of treatment for their children.

MS: That must be such great support with other parents. I mean I mean, people don't quite understand what you're going through, I imagine.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Yeah, it's a lot of work because I'm also working full time. So it's like I come home and... It's a full time job.

MS: It's a full time job, yeah. Dr. Dowling, why did Terry and his family have to, in their foundation, have to raise so much money to develop this drug?

DR. JIM DOWLING: So the creation of gene therapy itself is a very expensive process to start with. The generation of what would be used to make the gene therapy and then the actual manufacturing of gene therapy turns out to be an expensive process. So a lot of it went into the science and then also the manufacturing, and then there's additional expenses that come with a clinical trial to be done in the most safe and effective way possible. And that's where the partnership between the foundation and SickKids happens, because SickKids supported the clinical trial aspect of things.

MS: And Terry, tell me a little bit about the fundraising, what how you went about it. And I understand you also met with the Prime Minister as part of this.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Yeah, it's an interesting story. So about three months in after we liquidated your life savings, we realised that no matter how much we sold our home and everything else, it wouldn't be enough. So we came out with this video and our, our community came together and it was an amazing thing. The first day we told someone about our story that the same day we had this John Lennon bottle, Bob, who goes around and collects all the bottles in the area.

MS: Sorry, what's his name?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Bottle Bob?

MS: That's a pretty good name.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: A great guy. And he donates all the money to different things like hockey camp that. Yeah. And he came and he goes, I'll be here every month supporting you. And two weeks later, we had a beer market festival that raised $25,000. And then from there we had about 100 events, galas, soccer tournaments, lemonade stands by little kids. It was unbelievable. And we didn't organise any of these. These were all organised by individual people that didn't even know us. They cared about our story. And then COVID happy that we got lockdown and we were trying to figure out how do we raise money? And my wife was like, Why don't you write to Ottawa and meet the Prime Minister? I'm like, Well, I'm not physically fit. I'm not going to ride my bike all the way. So I started training for six weeks, every two days a week, and from 9 p.m. until two in the morning I'd write as far as I possibly could go.

MS: And this is on top of your full time job and your full time job, and it was.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Actually pretty good. I got like a lot of a lot of stamina and then for four days I rode from Toronto with my parents trailing behind me and we met the Prime Minister and we pleaded with him, not for Michael, but to plead with him that we should be doing government programmes like in France and in Netherlands and in Italy where they're creating these gene therapies for common diseases in the country. And they were letting our children down, unfortunately didn't go anywhere. But that was...

MS: Well, we'll make that reminder again here today. And as he was saying, Dr. Dowling, I noticed that you were you were nodding your head.

DR. JIM DOWLING: Well, you know, picking up at an idea, I think we're hope we're hopeful that we can have these kind of conversations with the government about developing therapies, not just for Michael, but for the broad range of children with narrow genetic conditions. And part of the SickKids Precision Child Health Initiative is the idea that we want to bring individualised therapy to as many children as possible and to make it I mean, not not to minimise the amazing effort that Terry and that found in the foundation have done. But the hope would be that that one wouldn't have to do that, that that, you know, we as academic institutions, working with the government, can develop these therapies in a way that would be cost effective, quick, effective, but then available for all Canadians.

MS: And I just wanted to talk for a moment about the name of the drug. Can you tell me about that, Terry? What the name is and what it means?

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: It was an interesting story. We were trying to figure out what to name it. And my wife had this amazing idea. So we were thinking of different names and then we thought up either, which means hope in Greece, in Greek. And then we were like, [foreign speech]. So it means Michael's hope, right? And that was kind of how we created the name for for the drug.

MS: It's great. A question to both of you. Terry, you said that you're obviously optimistic, cautiously optimistic about what's happening. What is your what is your hope in terms of, you know, what the next few months can bring with an. Next year can bring for Michael.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: So my hopes and prayers are that Michael becomes completely normal. And then we go to his wedding and everything. The reality is, if Michael is treated at one month, two months, you're probably would have been a cure. But because Michael's four years old, when he got the treatment, our hopes and prayers are that, you know, at the very minimum, he can verbalise and tell us he's in pain or he's hungry or he has to go to the bathroom and continues to be mobile. I mean, that's kind of what we're expecting or hoping what happens from here. It's an we're an unknown territory.

MS: And just tell me a little bit more about that, that you said that if he'd gotten it right away, what's that? What's the difference? How is that in Alaska after that? Dr. Dowling To expand a bit, but in terms of why that was, that would work better.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: A lot of these diseases, as far as Anderson, the word neurodevelopmental as well as neurodegenerative. So there's a certain aspect of development. Right. And one of the Michael's problems is that he has a small head, a very small head called microcephaly. So if you end up getting the drug at one month old, the protein would have been there for him to develop and become - at least that's what my my personal feeling around this is. But again, it's unknown, right? Because the problem is that children are diagnosed at three or four years of age and we can't get to the newborn screening programme unless there's a drug. So it's like the chicken or the egg. That's right. So I think, you know, if you're able to start doing a whole exome sequencing on every single child as born in Canada, that's another thing that we should be looking at as well, which other countries are doing. Then we can at least identify these diseases earlier, and these children will have more hope.

MS: And Dr. Dowling, what's your hope for Michael?

DR. JIM DOWLING: So, I mean, I share Terry's hope that this is a therapy that will not only arrest the progress of the SPG 50, which is a progressive condition, but actually enable him to make gains and develop skills that he has never had before. I also share Terry's understanding of the unknown. You know, we don't know what of the changes that Michael's experienced are not reversible. Right. Whereas which ones could be. And that's something that we'll learn over time and in underscores the importance of doing something like this within the setting of a clinical trial. Because then we can really learn in a in a non-biased way whether or not the therapy is helping him.

MS: And as we heard, the injection was given in March. It's still early days. When will we know if it's worked?

DR. JIM DOWLING: So based on other gene therapy trials in rare disease, where we continue to see improvements a year or two after the therapy has been given, my you know, my window for him would be months and years when I would hope to start seeing something that we would say, yes, this is a as a definitive change from his his previous status would be within the first year. But as you're saying, it's still early times and not knowing what that kind of change can look like. I mean, there have been very few gene therapy trials looking at, uh, conditions that affect the brain.

MS: And Terry, last question to you. In the, in the last minute we have here, what are you and your wife looking for? What would be that marker, something that Michael did that you thought, Oh, this is this is working.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: The I think the vocalisation, you know, Michael, she was speaking, you know, he said, bah bah. Which means 'dad' in Greek, he said Boo, which was our dog. And then he had a major seizure and he lost the ability to vocalise anything. Like he vocalises things, but he doesn't actually speak. You know that, I think that would be a huge, huge win for us if he vocalises any- even a single word or if he's able to use his wheelchair better so he can mobilise more. You know, these are simple milestones. But for a child like Michael, they're monumental.

MS: Well, I want to thank you both so much for joining me today. And we'll we'll continue to watch his progress.

TERRY PIROVOLAKIS: Thank you so much.

DR. JIM DOWLING: Thank you.

MS: Thanks, Terry Pirovolakis is the father of Michael, the only child known in Canada to have a genetic disorder called SPG 50. Dr. Jim Dowling is a clinical clinician scientist, focussed on gene discovery and therapy at SickKids Hospital. He's the lead doctor on Michael's clinical trial. The CBC News is next. Then it has been a year since the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan. This week, we're bringing you a special series dedicated to the stories of the people who fled and those who stayed behind. In a moment, the destruction of press freedom. I'm Michelle Shephard and you're listening to The Current.

Taliban rule has made independent news coverage in Afghanistan impossible, says media CEO

Guests: Fawzia Koofi, Lotfullah Najafizada

MS: Hello. I'm Michelle Shephard and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, the conclusion of my CBC podcast, White Hot Hate. But first, Afghanistan. One year after the Taliban's return to power. After the fall of Kabul and Taliban takeover of Afghanistan came the speeches trying to calm the panic.

SOUNDCLIP

We reassure all internationals, the U.N., all embassies, our neighbours, that we will not be allowing the soil of Afghanistan to be used against anybody. We have given amnesty to everybody. There is no revenge. All those young people who have talent, who have got an education, we don't want them to leave.

MS: But many of those who could did leave by the tens of thousands. And that part about the soil of Afghanistan not being used against anybody. Well, there are questions around that as well. Today, we continue our special series, Afghanistan A Year Under the Taliban, with one of the woman who helped broker that peace. Former Afghan MP and the country's first female deputy parliamentary speaker, Fawzia Koofi. Fawzia, good morning.

FAWZIA KOOFI: Good morning, Michele.

MS: You heard the Taliban spokesperson there trying to reassure the international community that this was a different Taliban, that there were reassurances a year later. What is the international community getting wrong, do you think about the Taliban?

FAWZIA KOOFI: Well, the Taliban created three narrative narratives, Michel. One was that they have changed that there is a Taliban 2.0 and that they are views towards women's rights, education, access to job in public, etc. is different. They have actually told that to me in several meetings we had with them and they have been saying that to international. The second narrative was that they have this associated with all the military extremist groups. And then the third was that they are meaning meaningfully pro a peace settlement, which all of the three narratives that they have created were wrong and we were trapped into the created narrative. So we many people in Afghanistan didn't believe that. But I think our international friends were a bit naive in believing what Taliban say in terms of they have changed, in fact, their ideology is to stand against education and against the progress of our society, because if they do not do that, they will lose their base, they will lose their soldiers. That's what they have been fighting for.

MS: And do you think that perceptions still exist today, that there's this international, as you say, naivete to think that this is the Taliban 2.0?

FAWZIA KOOFI: There are some Taliban who within the Taliban whose daughters go to school and university. I know in many of the Gulf state capitals in Pakistan and other places, they personally think that the universities should open and girls schools should open. And the fact that they are continuously oppressing women should not be to the extent that it's happening. But the fact is that they are not vocal in their statements. They they prefer to keep to the power. And that's why they don't want everything that they want for their own daughters. They don't want that for the women and girls of the kind of stuff we just saw. I think they have to really come forward then and make it explicit that they want girls to go to school. And there are some signs of fragmentation within the leadership. But I think that fragmentation is not like strategy. It has to become strategy. It has to we need to leverage that.

MS: And just over the weekend, there were those images, of course, of dozens of Afghan women marching in Kabul, chanting, bread, work, freedom. And the Taliban responded by firing bullets in the air. When you were watching that, what was your reaction?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I mean, I don't have really words to explain how I feel every day, every minute since I had left Afghanistan and since the Taliban have become even more tougher and cruel to the women of Afghanistan. There are no words to explain and express the frustration, the disappointment, the anger we all are undergoing, especially, you know, as someone who have invested not only my time, but also my blood in Afghanistan to change the country. And I know that there is huge potential and I know that the country has transformed. And I know that there are a lot of people in Afghanistan who are willing to send their daughters to school, who are pro girls empowerment for women's empowerment. They have voted for me and for many other women who are in Parliament. In fact, I got the votes of women all over Afghanistan to vote. This this came from the vote came from the people of Afghanistan, from men and women. It is a transformed Afghanistan. Taliban need to adapt themselves to that transformation. The fact that they are not adopting and there is a distance between them and the distance is so huge between them and the people that they do not represent people at the end of the day.

MS: And I want to bring you back in a moment to the peace deal negotiations in Doha that you were a part of and saw the hope that you may have had a year ago. But before we go there, I spoke yesterday with Rangina Hamidi, who, you know, is Afghanistan's former education minister, and she warns that women's rights may be weaponized right now against the people of Afghanistan. With respect to AIDS and sanctions, what's your what is your response to that?

FAWZIA KOOFI: In fact, the Taliban have been already weaponizing women's rights through education because they are trying to make it so difficult for girls and oppress women so that once they reduce or minimise their the measures and they allow us to go to school and to go to school under circumstances that the curricula is revised. And it has become very extreme because even today we heard that they are reviewing the curricula, that even if the girls go to university or school, they won't get out, get anything out of it. Not not quality education, but still they want to keep make it so difficult that once they let the girls go to school, then the international community recognised them. In fact, they are the ones who are weaponizing women's and girls and they are the ones who have issued 28 decrees and bending over the last year to minimise women's rights. And if they could like invest that time and that resources and energy- And every month they have been issuing two decrees and verdict to eliminate women's rights. If they could focus that on, you know, economy and poverty eradication, probably the outcome would have been different. Instead of doing that, they have been trending on international community, weaponizing the frozen asset while the frozen US of the people of Afghanistan is money. And we do not want that to empower Taliban. We know that the Taliban have different source of funding. We know that there are other countries in the region now they are interested to to work in Afghanistan and to invest. We know that a lot of Chinese contractors were receiving money contracts from Afghanistan, money contracts without any transparency. So Taliban do have a source of income and they are the one actually weaponizing the woman rights for them to bargain with international companies. They are bargaining our rights for their political interests.

MS: And bring me back to those negotiating days when you were in Doha with the Taliban. I'm sure that feels like a very long time ago now for you. But when you look back on those negotiations, what stayed with you the most from that time?

FAWZIA KOOFI: The fact that we could get to some sort of political settlement if instead of, you know, has the withdrawal, if there was more time and pressure put in place to bring Taliban to a meaningful negotiation, and if Americans were not signing the deal directly with Taliban and in the state could bring the people of Afghanistan, the government of Afghanistan, the larger political community of Afghanistan to be part of that process so that it could make the peace outcome more sustainable. I think after the Taliban signed a deal with Americans and I thought we started negotiation with them. I realise that they are feeling victorious already and they are not meaning meaningfully committing time and political commitment to to the negotiation. But I think if there was a little bit more time, instead of focussing on withdrawal, on meaningful engagement, of pressurising Taliban to meaningfully engage, working with the countries who have an affiliation and support Taliban to bring Taliban to the negotiation, the outcome would have been different, Michel, if the outcome of the peace talks was even a government that is that was not satisfactory, 50% to both sides was much better than having a situation that we are having now.

MS: So in essence, it was a rushed deal.

FAWZIA KOOFI: It was an accident. It was a rushed, rushed withdrawal without a, you know, looking back and seeing what could be done better. I think many countries who withdrew from Afghanistan basically did this, did so based on their interest of their domestic politics, not based on what's going to happen and the consequences of Afghanistan.

MS: And one of the specific one of the specific criteria for the deal, and you mentioned was part of the narrative that the Taliban had put forward, was that their soil would not be used as a staging ground. And as we know, last month, al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri was killed right in Kabul. The Taliban responded by saying they were not aware he was in the country. Is that even possible?

FAWZIA KOOFI: So it looks like a funny tragedy. And this is something that I actually mentioned. And when I say they have created narratives that they tend to, you know, make us drop into those narrative. One of those narratives, which clearly actually also mentioned in the Doha Agreement, is they're absolute this association with military extremist groups and with Al Qaida is clearly mentioned explicitly. They will this associate and where Zawahiri was kept and safeguarded is like a close to the very famous shopping centre where a lot of international experts actually do their shopping from there, maybe 10 minutes walk to the palace to the presidential palace or to where the Taliban leader is. How come they don't know? I think they have become now smarter. I think their political advisers are giving them advice on what to say and how to shape their public messages. And this is this was told to them. I think they received advice on how to shape message around this issue. My personal information on my personal contact from across Afghanistan, tells me that a lot of military extremist groups actually have been inspired by Taliban victory and the way they took power. And they think this is possible in their countries. And those military extremist groups that are fighting Central Asian countries and other countries, in fact, I think the Taliban, Pakistan, the TTP a few days ago say that they want to establish Islamic Emirate of Pakistan in the border areas. So it's a flame that sooner or later will go anywhere if you really don't unite around this and support the people of Afghanistan for a political settlement.

MS: And Fawzia, we just have a couple of minutes left with a big question here for you, but what do you want to see from the international community right now? A lot of Western countries are not even recognising the government of Taliban. What would you like to see happen?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I think there should be more political pressure on Taliban for them to respect the desire of people of Afghanistan before an international community's desire. But if the people of Afghanistan desire for them to their girls to go to school, to have a legitimate government that is representative, that is accountable. I think the international community should still have some leverage. You know, a travel ban is one of those leverage, I think, you know, political pressure working with countries in the region to ensure the Taliban are ready for a political settlement, talk with people of Afghanistan to agree for a government that has a legitimacy, that represent the people, including the women.

MS: And in terms of recognition, do you believe that it should be the international community should recognise the government?

FAWZIA KOOFI: Well, it looks like a joke. I mean, how do we recognise a government that is depriving 55% of a society from its rights to a will to education, even not to work and accommodating the top military extremist leaders, the most wanted one and not committed to any of their commitments. I think the international community have just been giving so much to the Taliban without getting anything in return.

MS: Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

FAWZIA KOOFI: Thank you. Thank you.

MS: Fawzia Koofi is a former Afghan member of parliament. The media and journalists have also been hit hard in Afghanistan over the past year. According to Reporters Without Borders, since the Taliban take over, 40% of Afghan media outlets have closed and 80% of female journalists have lost their jobs. Prior to the Taliban takeover of the country, Afghanistan had 543 media companies. Tolo News was the largest and lot Lotfullah Najafizada was TALOS director. He joins me now. Lot Fuller. Thank you for coming in.

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Thank you, Michele.

MS: You had a chance here to listen to Fawzia Koofi reflect on the past year and understand your you know her as well. As we mark the one year of Taliban rule, what is top of mind for you?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Afghanistan's women. They're suffering. The fact that the world has changed for them. And it's getting worse. That cannot leave my mind and minds of people like myself. And it is so tragic. To see setbacks happening back to back. For Afghan girls and women in Afghanistan.

MS: And you must have employed many female journalists when you were with Tolo. What has happened to them now?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Some are still at work. Some have to cover their faces on television. I don't know if we have such an example anywhere else in the world. We talk about dictatorships dealing with media, putting pressure. We talk about countries like Iran, like China, like North Korea. This is something else, Michele. Afghan journalists are going through so much. Particularly female journalists. You mentioned numbers, but beyond numbers. Afghanistan had the freest media and the entire region. Compare it to any of our immediate neighbours as well as some of the bigger neighbours in region. And that is no longer the case. When we launched OML television two weeks ago only an online presence. For now, we got more job applications. The news in the first 24 hours.

MS: Wow. And I want to get to television, because when you were in Afghanistan, it was Tolo News, the largest that you that you were the director of. It was the largest private media network. And as you just mentioned, just two weeks ago, you've launched something new. So tell us a little bit more about television.

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: When we found ourselves outside Afghanistan. After the fall of Kabul last year. We realised that this was something that we had to do. We had to come back to journalism. Afghanistan needed that probably more than what was needed before the fall of Kabul. So journalists outside Afghanistan connected with some of those who are still in the country and created. Ahmed Television. We launched the digital platforms just two weeks ago and we are looking into expanding. It provided more help from from from NGO's and organisations throughout throughout the world to make sure that we can revitalise free media and free press in Afghanistan. We all want to know what's happening there. There is so much interest, but there are less eyes and ears on the ground. So OML is an initiative aimed at filling that vacuum. It's going to be difficult. It is difficult. But Afghanistan was no paradise before August 15 last year as well. It was the deadliest country for journalists for many, many years in a row.

MS: And describe how it works. So you're based here in Toronto. You have other journalists who are have found refuge other places, but you're also working with journalists inside of Afghanistan. How does that work for a television?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: I'm always headquartered in the U.S.. My colleagues, Sami Madi and others are leading it. I'm also helping them. Gaining support and making basically the right steps towards establishing a proper TV channel. We have journalists in Europe. We have journalists in Pakistan, in Turkey, in India, and most importantly, inside the country. So we are expanding our presence inside the country. And hopefully they will be they will be able to do their work as safe as they can. But it's very, very important that we should talk with Afghanistan, not about Afghanistan. So the presence on the ground is critical.

MS: And as you mentioned, their work has gotten just so much more difficult since the Taliban has come to power. They have the Taliban has set a release, a set of rules, 11 in total that journalists and media companies must follow. Can you just walk me through a couple of those?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Like Don't criticise the Taliban.

MS: Right.

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Simple as that. For women. Cover your faces. Don't interview certain individuals. Don't cover. Female protests. The list is very long. But it makes it impossible. For media inside the country to operate independently?

MS: Well, that was going to be my question. I mean, how how with those that long list, but also a very, very broad list of prohibitions, how are how are journalists able to do their work? It must be very secretive.

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Most journalists who work for outlets who are based outside Afghanistan work anonymously. Some work with their identities being being disclosed. But for local journalists, I think I mean, I have to recognise their courage and bravery as well. They are doing they are doing amazing work. Every single story coming out of Afghanistan is must be recognised, but one should also recognise that that's not the full story of Afghanistan. What we see in media is not what is actually happening. There are so many blind spots throughout the country geographically as well as topic wise.

MS: There are so many people being repressed. Now. We've we've had various stories over the week looking at that. Why should people inside of Afghanistan and out care about the repression of journalists?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Afghans first and foremost inside Afghanistan. They need to have access to free media. And because that's what they were used to. That's what they know. We had constitutional guarantees for free speech in the past 20 years, and we have a generation growing up. You know, being used to that. So all of a sudden, they are dealing with censorship. They don't see the amount of criticism that they used to see in media. So. So that vacuum has to be filled. The Afghan people need to be informed about what is happening inside the country and the society. They have to be connected through free flow of information. And of course, Afghan diaspora. We're talking about millions of Afghans as well as the international community. We want to know why. Ayman Zawahiri was in Kabul who allowed him to be in Kabul. What does it mean to your security, Michelle, here in Toronto. And security of of of people around the world. So I think it's important to to invest in journalism and free media support Afghan journalists, women journalists in particular. That is I think that is critical for for countries like Canada and others to two to to. And that's probably an area that they should engage with Afghanistan.

MS: Right. And there's a lot of attention, you know, this week in the last couple of weeks on Afghanistan, because we're at the one year anniversary. But generally, do you feel that the international media has maybe stopped covering Afghanistan, maybe lost interest as international troops pulled out?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: The international media was there because of the international presence. We have a lot of great international journalists in Kabul this week, but they won't be there next week. So who is going to cover Afghanistan next week? There might be some, but probably not enough. And and they look at Afghanistan from rightfully from an international perspective. I think there is a lot of Afghan stories that need to be told, and that is an area where Afghan journalists come in.

MS: And just in the last minute and a bit that we have, I know personally I've helped in trying to get some local Afghan journalists that my colleagues have worked with to find refuge because they feel they can't be safe there. Of those that are working with you, how many are trying to get out? I mean, what's the commitment in terms of those who want to stay and those who want to leave right now?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Well, to be very honest with you, I know no journalist in Afghanistan right now who do not want to leave and the situation is getting worse for them. And they are and they have to deal with so much pressure. And I hope things change.

MS: Do they feel as if the international community has let them down? Maybe journalists as well, as well as governments that relied on on their help?

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: We have let our ourselves down as Afghan first and of course, affected and influenced by international decisions.

MS: I appreciate you very much coming in today and good luck with Arnaud Television.

LOTFULLAH NAJAFIZADA: Thank you, Michelle.

MS: Lottfullah Najafizada is the CEO of Ammo Television. The Taliban promises a statement in response. We've yet to receive it. Tomorrow, we'll continue our series Afghanistan A Year Under the Taliban. I'm Michel Shepard. And you're listening to The Current.

Episode six of CBC podcast White Hote Hate

MS: I'm Michelle Shepherd, and you're listening to The Current. Over the past week, we've been bringing you our CBC podcast, White Hot Hate. Today, you'll hear what impact arresting members of the base could have on the hate groups appeal. Here's the final episode of White Hot Hate: Give Them What They Deserve.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN: So it was January 16th, 2020, and I had been covering this removal of this homeless encampment down on Main Street. It was really cold. I'd been sitting in my car since five in the morning because, like, I didn't know what time this was going to happen. And as this was kind of wrapping up, my phone just started blowing up. I could feel it vibrating in my pocket. I checked and I had a text message from my editor who said, Matthews has been arrested. You know, get back to the newsroom. And he had dropped a link to a New York Times article about Matthew's arrest.

MS: Just five and a half months after Winnipeg Free Press reporter Ryan Thorp had gone undercover to infiltrate the base, Patrick Matthews was arrested. The former Canadian Army reservist was charged with unlawfully entering the U.S. and the illegal purchase of weapons. Ryan made it to the Maryland courtroom when Matthews was first brought before a judge.

RYAN: I wasn't really sure what to expect the proceedings about to get underway and like the side room to the court. The door swings open and you can hear like chains jangling a bit. And then Matthews gets led in and he's wearing like an orange prison jumpsuit, and he's shackled and he's got this big bushy beard back again and his hair is longer. I know that after we published the first article. Matthews I think in an attempt to disguise his identity, shaved his face completely and shaved his head. But by this point, you know, after five or six months kind of on the lam, he looks like he did when I first met him in Whittier Park in Winnipeg. And as he's being led in, he's kind of scanning the crowd a little bit. And, you know, I swear to God, like, he zooms in on me and like, our eyes lock and there's like a sense of recognition there. And it seems pretty clear to me that he remembers me. And then, you know, I think I dropped my eyes to my notebook and jot down some notes. And by the time I look back, he's seated.

MS: The Patrick Matthews that Ryan knew while undercover, first on the vetting call and then during his face to face meeting in the park was pretty consistent with the Matthews seated before the judge. Confident, disdainful, pretty cocky.

RYAN: It was like he didn't accept the legitimacy of the proceedings. He didn't seem to be taking it very seriously. He was like leaning back, reclining in his chair. At one point, someone is reading into the court record his statement. That's taken from a self recorded propaganda video that the FBI had pulled from his laptop. And the quote from him is derail some trains.

SOUNDCLIP

Kill some people and poisons some water supplies.

RYAN: And as this is written to the court record, Matthews is like chuckling to himself. He's laughing.

MS: Patrick Matthews as he first sat in court after his arrest, may have acted like this was all a joke, but the hatred he spread, that type of intolerance has very real consequences.

JEANNIE: We need to see an evolution in the laws and the way that we deal with these groups. I'd like to see a lot more education on it in the public school system. They need to be exposed, and I think when that happens that it will become much more stigmatised to be a part of it.

MS: Jeannie Pepper Bernstein lives in Orange County, California, with her husband Gideon and two kids. She's a motivational speaker, a role she took on recently because of tragedy.

JEANNIE: I just think that it wouldn't be right for my son to have been a victim of such a terrible crime and to allow this to potentially happen to other people, too. If we can try to to give people some awareness of the danger in this country that is posed by extreme hate.

MS: Her eldest son, Blaze, was a bright, popular 19 year old, toothy grin and easy laugh. He was a foodie, too, an amateur chef, and he loved to write, which made him the perfect pick as managing editor of Pen Abati, the University of Pennsylvania's Food magazine.

JEANNIE: He had just finished the first semester of his second year, and he was really excited to come home because he had not come home for Thanksgiving. We were all very excited to see him. Everybody was excited. His grandparents, siblings. You know, we had a lot of downtime. I wanted to give him a lot of space to rest because it had been such a difficult semester.

MS: This was January 2018.

JEANNIE: A few days before he was supposed to return back to school, Blaze went missing. He failed to show up for a dental appointment that I had with him.

MS: Jeannie, how did you know when something was wrong? Did you have sort of like a motherly instinct at that moment, or was it just so out of character for him to miss an appointment?

JEANNIE: It was both things. It was because. Blaze was really looking forward to that, a dental appointment because he was just about to get rid of a bridge that he had and he was about to get an implant. I knew he wanted to be at that appointment with me. We talked about that. And then when I got home, I found his wallet and his retainer and his contact lens case. And I knew that he wouldn't ever walk out of the house without those things unless he was planning to return very soon. I knew something was really wrong.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWSCASTER: Police searching by ground with canines and by air with helicopters. No sign of the University of Pennsylvania premed student.

MS: The community came out en masse to help police search for Blaze. But about a week after his disappearance, his body was found in a shallow grave on the edge of a neighbourhood park.

SOUNDCLIP

And we just learnt that the O.C. Sheriff's Department and Coroner's Office has confirmed that our family's worst fears could come true. And they have positively identified our son Blaze's body today. We have had people do random acts of kindness and so many friends and family that have reached out to us. It's unbelievable what you people have done for us and our son. And it's a memory.

MS: Soon after, a 20 year old man was arrested and charged with Blaze's killing. He had been a former classmate at their performing arts high school.

JEANNIE: He had been violently murdered. And the suspect is, or was a member of. A little known extreme group of neo-Nazis called Atomwaffen. And I don't really like to talk that much about them because they're not worth our time, really, other than it's important to know that these things exist and that we need to keep our children away from them any way we can.

MS: Blaze was stabbed as many as 20 times. Orange County district prosecutors are pursuing the case as a hate crime, alleging Blaze was killed because he was Jewish and gay. It was journalist Ali Winston working with colleagues who exposed the accused connexion to Atomwaffen division. They reported for ProPublica that he had been a committed member who at one point attended a hate camp in Texas. After the news broke, Atomwaffen celebrated the killing in internal chats. One member praised the alleged murder as a one man gay Jew wrecking crew. While Jeannie says she always knew that Blaze might encounter anti-Semitism and bigotry in his life. She never imagined a group like Atomwaffen devastating her family in the way they did.

JEANNIE: I don't know if I'd ever heard of Atomwaffen. I mean, I really probably had my head in the sand as much as everybody else here in Orange County and California in the United States at the time. I don't think that there still is a lot of very good understanding of what is really going on in our society with regards to this demographic that becomes involved in an Atomwaffen or other neo-Nazi group.

MS: Jeannie would rather talk about Blaze, not these groups. She'd always thought Blaze was pretty exceptional, but after his death, she learnt just how much he meant to others around him.

JEANNIE: He wasn't just a really smart kid and really outspoken. He also was a person that took great interest in helping people. I've received over the last three years quite a bit of email and messaging from the public, from people that knew my son and who had stories for me about things that he did for them. If he hadn't died, I don't know if I ever would have learnt about the things, the wonderful, amazing things that he did.

MS: She and her husband channelled that kindness their son had inspired into setting up what they call a movement blaze at forward. It's a charitable fund to support children, LGBTQ and marginalised groups.

JEANNIE: Being in the public eye and being able to show people that Blaze was a Jewish gay person that was going to do great things for this world. He was going to make this world a better place. And he's gone now because of hate, because of violence, because of ignorance. You can change things. You don't have to raise your kids in a bubble where they are culturally deprived. You can take your kids out and have them see this diverse world and the importance of all of us working together. We don't really have the infrastructure or the mental health care services to deal with these young men. So things probably need to change. But the advice for parents is just if you have not had these discussions with your kids about hate and let them know that you don't accept any form of hate in your home, they go do it. If you haven't yet.

MS: Well, let's see. We are an hour and a half early. It's a gorgeous fall morning. Late October, the sun is just coming up as we arrive at the Maryland courthouse. There's one other car in the parking lot, another media outlet. And yeah, we're an hour and a half early because there's barely any room in the courtroom. You think there'll be, like, room for, like, two people?

RYAN: Two plus overflow.

MS: Right. Okay. Well, at least this nice morning in Maryland. Okay. We're really early, but we both want to make sure we get to see Matthew's in the courtroom. For me, it's the first time I've laid eyes on him. About four months earlier, he surprised everyone by changing his plea to guilty. In Matthew's plea agreement, both sides accepted the following facts. He had been a member of the base. He had crossed the border illegally. He had attended that October 2019 hate camp, and he had been building an assault style rifle. But the charges he actually pleaded guilty to were, in the grand scheme of things, considered minor firearm offences and obstruction of justice. That last one was for smashing a cell phone and dumping it in the toilet during his arrest. In U.S. federal law, there is no stand alone offence for domestic terrorism to be charged with terrorism. It has to be international in scope. Like connected to ISIS or some foreign group. But if a crime was committed with the intent to, quote, promote an act of terror, like intimidating the public or influencing the government, a judge can give a stiffer sentence. It's what's known as terrorism. Sentencing enhancements in a sentence of three years behind bars could become 25 to support his argument that Mathews was trying to terrorise. The prosecutor submitted a video that Matthews Self recorded in 2019.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEWS: These people make us out to be evil incarnate. They want bad guys so bad they can have it. We'll give them bad guys. We will give them white supremacist terrorists if that's what they want. Give them what they want. Give them what they deserve.

MS: Then there's this clip where you can hear Matthews talking to Brian Lemley, Jr, his roommate and co-accused.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEWS: But that being said, they're going to call us a terrorist and it's just going to be that they're going to try to keep us in jail as long as possible. So the question is, they're going to go to jail anyway. Why not go to jail for something good? Might as well do some damage to the system.

MS: No offence to the legal prowess of the prosecution, but they had a lot of material to work with. Matthews and Lemley talking about the violence they hoped would further their cause and all the evidence the FBI seised from their apartment, a night vision, scope for a rifle, a ballistic calculator for a deadly accurate shot. Fatigues and an exhibit bag so heavy with ammunition, the prosecutors struggle to lift it from the table. It was clear Matthews and Lemley were prepping for something. But what exactly?

MATTHEWS: We don't have to reveal that we are national socialists. We just have to reveal to these patriots, etc., that we're the good guys. We're here for on your side. Thereby, we are helping the acceleration. MOORE Yeah, it's just we can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some white blood on their hands. How bad would you feel if there was a battle in Richmond and you weren't even there?

MS: Those voices you're hearing, it's Matthews and Lemley with an undercover FBI agent, the same one they met at the Georgia hate camp and the Battle of Richmond. That was the pro-gun rally to be held in Virginia State Capitol in January 2020. The ideal opportunity to create chaos and spark a race war. But the defence argued these isolated clips were not proof. Certainly not evidence. The men were intending to carry out a terrorist attack. There were hundreds of hours of recorded conversations while they were under surveillance. They argued it was aspirational rather than operational talk. The defence also claimed the undercover coaxed and goaded them into saying these things. Besides, they said, Matthews and Lemley had been drunk most of the time. Leslie's lawyer also challenged the seriousness of the Battle of Virginia plan. He said his client and Matthews had apparently changed their minds shortly before they were arrested. They'd planned to attend a training camp in Michigan instead. The lawyer pointed to this exchange between the undercover and the two men.

SOUNDCLIP

LEMELY: How can you do that if you're going to Michigan? That's a hell of a dress.

MATTHEWS: Right now we're issuing the Virginia plan for the Michigan plan because the way that it looks like to me is that the government is going to wait out until these protests die out. They're going to pass the real meat and potatoes after the 20th. But I certainly don't want to be in the crowd and I certainly don't want to be storming any buildings in front of...

MS: Here's the thing. In any criminal case, it's easy to be swayed by one side or the other. And in this case, there were so many plans, so many discussions. It can be tough to pin down a clear picture. For instance, there were conversations about assassinating Virginia's speaker of the House. They looked up her home address, and when they couldn't find a good sniper position, they considered how to kill her on a route to work. But another time they concocted a harebrained scheme to brake mass shooter Dylann Roof out of prison. At one point they mused about how they could get an armoured vehicle to ram the gates.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEWS: Creepy. Like it'd be like a selfie picture of like being like us masked up being like you, like the face of being known as the guys who broke up Dylann Roof.

MS: Judge Theodor Chung wasn't swayed by arguments that Matthew's crime was just talk. He concluded Matthew's and Lemley were serious. Specific and calculating in their discussions, adding they were not wide eyed neophytes pressured into acts by the undercover. And he ruled that the terrorism sentencing enhancements would apply. Before Matthews was sentenced, his father, Glenn, took the stand and made an emotional speech. His voice broke when he talked about his son's compassion for animals. He said what he'd heard in court was not the son I know and love unconditionally. The good thing is, the pat I know is still here. Me and my family will never give up on him. We will never stop loving him. Then Matthew stood. He dramatically flipped his hair now, long past his shoulders from his face. He said it was a mistake to flee Canada. And when it came to his racist rhetoric and the extensive prepping, Matthews claimed, I tried to be the best friend I can be, but I picked the wrong set of friends. At the end of the day, I wasn't going to hurt anybody. He ended by telling the judge he'd like to quote a fellow Canadian, the singer Michael Bublé. Matthew said, I want to go home.

SOUNDCLIP

MS: Can you just give us your name and who you are representing?

JOE: Yeah. I'm Joe Balter. I represent Patrick Matthews.

MS: What did you make of the sentence?

JOE: Well, we're disappointed. We had asked for a sentence of 33 months, which was at the bottom of the guideline. And the judge was balancing a number of different factors, which he's supposed to do. But we're disappointed the sentence didn't end up at the low end.

MS: He said Matthew's got nine years. That's on top of the nearly two years he served pre-trial, largely in solitary confinement. We asked to speak to him through his lawyer, but never got a reply.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. The U.S. attorney, Eric Barron, will be speaking and then FBI is S.A.C. Thomas.

MS: A small podium was set up outside the courthouse for statements. A line of blue suits walked sombrely forward.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Good afternoon. We're here because of the conclusion of an important federal criminal matter. These men sought to divide our community based on hate and through acts of violence and terror. They collected and assembled weapons and ammunition, trained for acts of violence, vetted others for their cause, and attempted to recruit like minded extremists. Now, let me be clear. We do not investigate and prosecute individuals for their beliefs, however hateful. But we do prosecute violence and threats of violence, and we hope today's sentences deter others from such actions.

MS: Matthews Mother Kim, who had come from Manitoba for the sentencing, also spoke to reporters.

KIM: No one wants to be in this position as a mother, but I know I am a changed person for it. I have so much compassion for anybody that gets into trouble, you know? And he certainly got in trouble. He, he, he. Nazario, where the hell are you?

MS: As Matthew's mom evoked the name of the base's founder. She looked around as if genuinely looking for an answer, then continued.

KIM: And we need a middle person. Just like when you have an undercover person that goes in there to cultivate and try to get them to do more. Why not hire somebody good and and try to steer them where they've fallen, fallen in a place where they shouldn't be. He he's innocent. You know, there's so many young men under the ages of 27, they're not mature. And 27 and under, they seriously not- patrick for his bills. And he had a job, but he made poor decisions based on his age and feeling vulnerable. And he lost his support system. And I'm really sort of angry a little bit with the reporter Ryan Thorpe. You know, if he would have had some compassion for him and he didn't, you know, and I know there's a lot of people are thinking the same as I am and I don't win a in. And, you know, you're on my turf, man. And if I see you, you know, I want to tell him what he did was slightly wrong.

MS: Yeah, but don't. Don't you think journalists have a role to play.

KIM: Ruin people's life? No.

MS: Ryan knows Patrick Matthew's family are not fans, to say the least. They blame him for all of this. As the last of the reporting was done, we drove away from the courthouse.

SOUNDCLIP

MS: I know it's still early to kind of process, but do you think it was a fair sentence?

RYAN: Yeah, I don't know, because like my instinct as a reporter is to be like, well, it's not the job of journalists to adjudicate, you know, these sorts of issues. That's a matter for a jury, for a judge, for the court process. The judge, you know, he kind of laid it on the line where he's like, you're lucky the FBI shut it down a couple of steps for it actually got worse and more real because then, you know, you would be looking at like mandatory life.

MS: More sentences soon followed. The three Base members from Georgia pleaded guilty to membership in a criminal gang and conspiring to murder targets they believed were Antifa activists. Jacob Catley, only 19, when he was arrested, was sentenced to six years. Cell leader Luke Austin Lane was sentenced to 13. It came out in court that he talked about killing his own dad, Tom. And while in jail, he reportedly defaced the walls with swastikas. And Michael Hildebrand, the third member of that crew, was given a sentence of 20 years, in part because he brutally assaulted a fellow inmate while awaiting trial. These sentences come at a time when the FBI is devoting more resources to investigating militias and white supremacist violence. And that's changed the landscape. There's really a fine line between sowing fear and appreciating a threat. The investigation into the September 11th attacks resulted in what's known as the 911 Commission report. It read like a tragic novel and even became a bestseller. There's a sentence from it that always stuck with me. The most important failure was one of imagination. We couldn't fathom that type of destruction, even though the warnings were all there. Sometimes it's a singular story, large or small, that can set the course of your reporting career. For Ryan, it's very likely the Matthews case, his investigation into Matthews may be done, but he's just starting to dig into the wider movement and watching where this heads.

RYAN: You know, I would like to think that I wasn't naive before. I knew about like the far right movement. I knew it existed. I knew that there was hateful people out there. I perhaps didn't understand, like the depths of hatred that, you know, when I was in this on the interior of this organisation and like documenting their internal discussions, just like the sheer level of of hatred was disturbing. And it's one thing to know it exists and it's another thing to see it up close.

MS: That was our CBC podcast, White Hot Hate. If you missed any episodes of it or any of the other CBC podcasts we've played this summer, you can find them on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. That's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One from for q. Today we hear from Jennette McCurdy. Jeanette once had two successful kids TV shows. Her face was on lunchboxes and T-shirts. From the outside, she had it all. But behind the scenes, she was struggling with an abusive relationship with her mother, which later manifested itself in eating disorders and alcoholism. Jeanette McCurdy speaks with Tom Power about her new memoir, I'm Glad My Mum Died. That's after the news. I'm Michelle Shepard. Thanks for listening to The Current.

Tuesday August 16, 2022 Full Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode